 Suresh is going to start our IT for IT themed presentations this morning so please give him a warm open group welcome. It's really great to be here back in Hyderabad and thanks Steve for the kind introduction. So before we start I think just to get things rolled up how many of you have heard IT for IT before you came to this event? Okay that makes my job a lot more easier right. So I think with the steps of the context today the whole day is going to be about IT for IT. So I'm going to set the context in terms of what's the business value that IT can bring in right and it's going to be more setting the context and coming up with a storyboard right and how many of you like stories? I think one of the easiest way to remember things in our life is through the granny stories. I'm a staunch believer that when you start to have a storyboard you are able to absorb things lucidly and able to implement that right. So that's my humble attempt to get through a storyboard. So why are we here today attending a conference of this magnitude right. Two days of conference and we are on the second day to start up and I hope Steve has actually given you the kind of momentum build up for this for day two. As IT a lot of people how many of you are from IT here almost 95% how many of you are from business? Good. So three people gentlemen I have a voice for you here. So from a from a order of the day we are into a section where we need to reduce cost improve quality and also manage risk. Do you think that we have this is consistent across all different segments? Just deep diving into it is context situation on what is the situation today is it's not that people but we have the IT pressure IT is bombarded with projects to be delivered on time with that kind of precision with quality and value. Business has got a lot of pressures talking about reducing the cost going fast time to market making sure that we have loyal customers one of the biggest challenges is that we are we are having customers evade every day because there's so much of options. So what can we do in order to retain our customers and deliver value? Of course we have our own saying in terms of economy we are high-five in telling about our GDP and growth and stuff like that but then why do you think IT is feeling the pressure? The important question in terms of pressure is to look at we are more towards technology focused Steve mentioned about bring your own devices you know the cloud virtualization internet of things and so on right building smart cities probably and which you can add on to that is we have so much technology focused today and we act continue to act on silos and we are so much process focused I mean if you ask a consultant like me I would probably go out and say that probably get ITIL or COVID and that will work. The problem that we have with all of those so-called process centric approaches we don't define the end to end value chain and many of the times when you talk with the enterprise they say oh guys this guys talk about agile lean ITIL and COVID and that doesn't make sense for us because there was so no common understanding from an end to end perspective that how IT is delivering business value can someone just to see if you're alert can someone read this slide just loud enough if you could just give a probably a mic yeah thanks for volunteering you just read loud here is Edward beer coming downstairs now bump bump bump on the back of his head behind Christopher Robin it is as far as he knows the only way of coming downstairs sometimes he feels that there really is another way if only he could stop bumping for a moment and think of it just think for a while in IT we have been doing things traditionally very well in terms of operational excellence with we always say that we did well yesterday we'll continue to do well today and we'll also continue to do just talking to Sukumar just a while ago how much things have transformed in the last 10 years right the level of magnitude that we are talking about business agility is just every second if that was the case can we rest on our past models of how we did better last year versus this year so just think about there is a need for reflections or what we are doing today does it add real business value so there is no longer a imperative but this there is a real imperative that IT has to move towards creating value right so look at this one from a perspective that traditional IT was focusing on workloads infrastructure managing data and other stuff we are moving into rapid virtualization cloud mobility internet of things bring your own devices so if we need to really go up and business says that we mean to go about it and I've just read recently about shadow it is good because it keeps the IT on the doors right because remember business and IT are like a marriage there's only one person who can outsource the other person who is it business can outsource IT IT cannot outsource business so we are at the mercy of doing something that adds value to business otherwise we get outsourced right now we are going to talk in detail about IT value chain but that's not my scope of my presentation there are a lot of eminent panelists who could go to the level of detail but the value chain is talking about an end-to-end perspective I would strongly recommend books of quarter for value chains as well as Martin get more understanding of how value streams and value chains work the IT value chain broadly is divided into four streams okay so it starts with strategy to portfolio where we are trying from the strategy level what kind of business are we going to be one of the kind of portfolios that we offer as part of service to our customers and then bring about business innovation so you start at the strategy level which strategy to portfolio which is a set of your own service portfolio if you remember and then come to the requirements to deploy which is primarily into service design aspect right to looking at right from the where we design a blueprint until it actually gets to the kind of architectural standard principles everything models in order to get things done and then we go to request to fulfill request to fulfill is primarily the catalog where we have someone subscribe for a service and today everything is actually working upon that model of how do we purchase and get those services and finally last but not the least the real value comes in in terms of operations right people who are working how many of you have been or have been a part of support IT support how difficult is that particular job it's the most thankless job that I've ever seen in my life agree people think that they are machines to churn out in terms of tickets and other stuff the important aspect is those are the times where we actually realize value how many of the times you have had a customer telling you fix this issue great and you send me a survey I submitted good things about it and tomorrow again the same issue reoccurs he gets frustrated because you're just fixing bug and it reoccurs so when we talking about detect to correct we need to be proactive you know terms of even management looking at monitoring and performances before someone actually starts calling us up right the most difficult thing is you know just keep on asking people for the same issue again and again you're not adding value so keeping the lights on is not adding value it's about proactively identifying bottlenecks and then fixing that so that the customer is happy I've had discussions with CIOs and asking one question what is the most important thing that keeps you awake on the night any any guesses for CIO which is the most important thing that keeps in his brain which has got sleepless nights what is that sorry IT cost is okay when someone is wearing the cost so he can still run show true sorry unplanned downtime how many times you've got to raise escalation with someone is calling up and say what's happening around so unplanned downtime is again to talk with detective correct just a web part of think about when I when I was just talking about with James that you know when we talked about it for IT it's very very important to understand how it moves from a concept shell service model right we have everything on the on the kind of a blank paper saying that this is what is our own strategy in portfolio but how does it try to cascade into the next level which is a kind of a logical model that we get into for the rest of the two streams and finally how does it come to the service model right so we have people who go into the greater detail I'm not going to do that but this is just to give you a a feeler of that particular game now let's come to a case study right so we're giving setting the context of why we are here in terms of IT in terms of demand for business what are we doing so this customer I was engaged with the last 10 to 11 months is actually a telecom provider in Southeast Asia I think I wanted to keep it that level because you I don't want you to guess much more than that so it's a small midsize sequence so one of the questions that people ask is can I use this particular thing for a smaller organization as opposed to big large enterprises so this company telecom provider was very good in operational experience that means they were very good in detective correct right so doing properly operational efficiency and all those stuff how are they needed improvement across the value chain that means across the enterprise they wanted someone who could talk the same language and make things as a value stream so they didn't know whether it was a framework or an architecture or a methodology that they need to adopt they said is there something that we can all talk the same language because someone is talking about Lee Steve is talking about a jive so Kumar is talking about DevOps someone and something I mean can I have something which is common across okay now what was the selling point for IT afraid so someone called me and I didn't know Steve you had this slide already in your presentation but then someone called us from the organization said that we had heard about Gartner saying lot good things about IT for IT do you think you can do it oh is that so let's go in and do it because what happens is most of these trends come into practice when Gartner or Forrester just voices it out big time right so that was one of the selling point where this organization wanted to try IT for IT right they didn't have much of clue they called a consultant to come there and start doing across so from an organizational driver perspective the first is to understand the common understanding of can we talk the same language across HR finance vendor procurement and all of those stuff along with IT right because IT is always looked as the pampered child because it gets a lot more attention these days as opposed to the other business functions think about manufacturing for that matter manufacturing has been there for years finance has been for years we have been actually expert of that so end-to-end value change right from the way how the procurement works how resourcing works how governance works how HR actually does the recruitment part of it giving resources across the end-to-end value change holistic view of sorry holistic view of business because business wants to have a single 360 degree view of how things were operating at leveraging best practice across which means that people had their own things about having oh okay I think this is best word by lean operations but someone saying no no you know what you love to move from the traditional waterfall to the agile methodology that's more prevalent so people have their own ways to actually come and and vouch for their own best practices so can we have a common understanding of leverage the best practice kind of hybrid but finally learn a coupon Excel that means we are ready to learn on the best practices see how it fits into the context of the organization and start excelling so what we did was look at the client org structure this is how it looked like we had a corporate office procurement department which is centralized where they were actually providing all of the services and then they had it HR finance and vendor management and one of the things we be a very very clear is to look at the scope of wherever you're going to touch people and to what degree right so obviously we had to get them into a same page so we did this IT for IT thanks to Charles who actually actually started off with that so we started out with the value stream we did an overview and said why it matters did a deep dive across to get people across defined business KPIs high levels and so on right but the essence was not to just consume everything just to give them the context and see where and what to apply for so do we go about doing it was when we actually went about talking to business talking to different departments one of the things we are very candid and where very focused is not to just blow things out of proportion so we wanted to focus on the asset state of what it was look at the IT for IT both the value stream and the supporting services and see how does it make sense to them because many a times a consultant comes there and delivers something which he thinks is more powerful as opposed to understanding what is the key issue that we are trying to address so we wanted to deliver something practical continual service improvement and value delivery so this is was the first thousand-foot level of how did we approach so what did we do is this is the case of use case so when we actually went across looking at different departments the first one was procurement one of the challenges the procurement had was increase in the time for releasing POS so what happens the time that actually spends time release a purchase order means that the vendor is not going to get its payment on time and there's an increasing cycle that goes across the second thing that we had from a vendor finance department was payment to vendors was not done on time guess what if you don't pay your money and I'm a vendor sometimes you know if you don't get paid on time do you think you will continue business with them no way guess what your prime supplier is going to go away from the value chain so all your strategic and tactical suppliers that you envision are not going to be happy because you are not taking care of them that's the business impact the HR had a big challenge because they said okay we want to virtualized you know you know cloud engineers we want to do virtualization so get them on board so the hiring time was pretty much along that by the time the business asked there's nobody in the cycle to deliver so what is happening is the lead time of hiring actually impacts the whole business business proposition then we had about vendors which is a multiple vendors which is called service supplier integration right service integration and management and finally it it comes up with some projects which business does not understand what's the value of it so what we did was we tried to work with an IT for IT value stream mapping pulled out something which was very relevant to that particular context and then see how this was working so first what happened was let's take of the procurement so we first understood the business process so the business process was you have a vendor selection so when the selection basically you know you call it for invites in terms of you know bids and other stuff and look at that these are my prime vendors and then there is a requirements and complaints in terms of have they paid their taxes do they have that any liability before how have been their delivery rates and all of those stuff and then approvals which means the business approval died and obviously it has a ERP system or SAP system where your service provider is actually listed in the system so when you are listed into the system one of the things that we need to have is making sure that that particular purchase order gets released on time for the scope of service so what happened was in this whole business process we did a kind of an assessment the number of PO's that are supposed to be generated on a queue when it actually reached 100 it actually it actually dropped so what happens is if you have the numbers 1 to 100 it stops there and then the next number was somewhere like 102 or something so it was not able to calibrate from where it stopped to start pulling spooling in the rest of the PO's guess what you lost the PO in the bid wheel so you love to search across from all different dimensions to find out that one PO that was missed in the whole cycle are you able to understand the context of this impact then suddenly there is a downtime of systems which we do not know is there's no methodology to get it to the lift I've seen a lot of apartments today here when we have stuck in somewhere in the lift it has to go to the nearest you know ground when like say if it's a second it has to go there many a times get standstill what am I supposed to do should I go down should I go up so there has to be bare minimum amount of backup and level of restoration for us to start with we tell a lot but then this is the whole business impact so there was no reset of counter so what we did was look at the KPIs from IT for IT and looked at for the context which is in grid so we looked at how much were the PO's that were delivered per period per service you know to the customer that we had anticipated we looked at how much was the inflow how much should be delivered on time what we also measured was percentage of PO's delivered on time with automation that means we had to talk with detective correct because there was a drop in the downtime so we'll have to adjust that particular thing to understand how much of impact of variance it created in order to deliver things on time so we used and we also understand that how many vendors were deployed on time in terms of PO's in terms of timely delivery all of those stuff so it's a maintained value chain right from the beginning of raising a bid to completion of a PO the second thing was most interesting was the recruitment lifecycle so many of the people have gone through a lot of this HR lifecycle so it started off identifying understanding the requirements of people looking at sourcing be it insourcing outsourcing you know looking at people from outside or talent acquisition screening applicants doing an initial interview and then doing a final interview get a feedback and then do a verification shortlisting and verification verification is basically the security clearance does he have a criminal record right I don't know to have someone who was actually committed in a crime to be a part of my company right so you do all of those stuff the point is I'm not able to see anything here so I didn't have duplication of it here so so what happens is the security and then you roll out an offer and you join things what happened guess what the security clearance took about two weeks that means after someone is shortlisted when you do an investigation through a security clearance it took two weeks for them to roll out an offer so that means the two weeks of lead time had to be factored in for the overall delivery right the guess was can I use another vendor who could shorten the time of my security clearance the other one was can I re-choose or change the cycle from this verification somewhere else so guess what we did so we did everything the change was did a business forecast we asked the business guys you need to give us the pipeline and forecast way ahead just don't come in and ask we need cloud engineers we need virtualized engineers you tell me what's your strategy look at what's the kind of task force we are going to ramp up in the next 12 months time because you have to decide the strategy level that has to percolate it from the strategy to portfolio to the level of request of fulfillment right so there was a real need of buying in and asking business you have to be proactive as well but what we did was we combined this verification as part of joining formalities they said guys let's leave them for a one month period so you just get things up and running without losing the two weeks of lead time but then what happens is on the run you can actually do it parallel so these were some of the stuff that we thought could make sure that the value in that in order to deliver resources on time was quick enough so what we did was couple of things why we was how was the requirement from the business and departments many times what happens is there's no centralized way of collating all the requirements business department says hey I think we need to have virtualization engineer we need to have a project manager deployed so we need to have a centralized system in which all the requirements of your talent has to come through a full pool and then it gets actioned as part of the queue right so we also looked at percentage of successful resource many times how many times you have seen a resource being hired which is not really fitting into the bill either you have not done the proper screening or the job description and probably that is where the skills assessment the skills for information age if he I could help in doing a proper assessment many many companies do not have that they want to have a standard job description which is a copy and paste of things to do that and then they roll it out and they expect everything to be on time so we also looked at the quality of people who are onboarded after they are you know their provision of resources and finally was on time you can have a resource who could take sweet three months time to get on get ready for projects but is the business willing to invest three months of time to get in build on a project would you agree if someone is waiting for three months to get it build would you think you should hire him or not hire if you are a business there's no question right I mean how on the earth should I pay him three months of salary without even being job so if that was the case when you thought about HR then you should look it into a different value stream right many times we look at things as part of what it is relevant to us not what is relevant to the business finance finance obviously had to be because POS were not released on time they said we cannot make a payment because POS are not ready you see there is there is an integration aspect we are talking about there is already something which is which is broken because of which there is an impact of it I'm still waiting for a PO to be released where I have already done the training and consulting about eight weeks back now I have to wait for the PO to be released before I go and submit a request backlock of payments compliance check people do a lot of compliance check when it comes to finance right the question is why would finance need to do it why don't someone else do it so that it actually makes sure that it is faster to get on delivery so and again there's local finance and external finance that means they say they've also processed it for their own employees in terms of paychecks in terms of employee engagements and cash payouts but also take care of that can you have someone dedicated to look at the business side of things so that it is much more faster if someone told you that 30th of the month or 29th of this month the payroll application is not working so you will get your payment by first week of March how does it sound very relevant right there's a problem there was a bug sorry we couldn't make it will you accept to be there about five days after that who will pay the EMI then mortgage there right so it's very important to understand who are your consumers is it your local employees your external how are they getting impacted now I am a staunch believer that you need to look at from a business versus IT now you look at the service provider stack here and this is from BRMI business relations man in the institute I've just taken a role as regional lead for but the whole point is you first start as a service provider at the ad hoc level look at a grocery market that you go in it doesn't matter where you go with with any grocery right it doesn't matter because that the value is very less it's a commodity so you go ad hoc way to buy wheat or sugar or something like that then what you happen is you saying order taker I normally say order taker is an analogy is a husband and wife husband always takes the order right so in terms of order taker that means you are doing what is asked to be done you don't ask questions so if you're a service provider asking can I know what is a big picture you don't need to know have you seen this discussion they said you don't need to know just do what I asked you to do that's what you are as an order take then you start going to a service provider which we have said SLAs and other stuff watermelon syndrome okay how is the watermelon looking outside lush green so your SLAs are always green but if you open it up it's bleeding red the customer is bleeding because you think that service level agreements was the only thing that was a parameter to measure my contracts but this guy is crying do you understand because every time I I call up help desk it goes through an interactive voice response have you had this my experience I want someone to hear me out don't give me through this interactive voice response again and again I mean automation can become a bane if you really don't connect at that level of human so it's very important to understand how do we move from service provided to a trusted advisor and then strategic partner and we have had engagements where we are talking about not charging any money to the customer but based on what is the operational efficiency or effectiveness we get charged on percentage so that means we share this comes rewards so that's how you need to start working with your suppliers that's a different ballgame altogether so with multi-sourcing environment multi-suppliers this is how you probably want to think about it and this guys are the most pampered IT has been coming across and saying that we are good I don't think we need anything to improve upon I think we are pretty good on what we are doing right so this guy says no we will adopt DevOps we'll adopt agile and other stuff so what we said was guys can you hold on for a while we don't want you to talk about anything let's play a game so what we did was we wanted IT to understand business so the way we did was we did a game called grab a pizza and that's following up here the grab a pizza is a game which is talking about how an organization wants to make a three million dollar budget three million dollar revenue in three to four months and how IT can come up with strategic projects tactical projects and operation projects to reach the number many times what happens is an IT we say that we are we want better software we want zero downtime we want to invest on new technology the question is how does it relate to my dollars how is it relating to my bottom line how is it relating to my top line so what we did was we had role plays about 14 people so we had CEO business manager supplier right we wanted to have someone's supplier who provide the provisioning across IT management so you have a service desk you have a release manager and all of those stuff and your business manager which means director of finance director of marketing all of those people sitting across so that's a game and then what we do is we allocate people one of the team is looking at app development so releasing new patches releasing new versions of the product that's a part of the app development team change management make sure that okay this is my window of release so I will have my patches updated this is my normal change this is my emergency change all of those stuff but then you you also have to understand the change only has a particular window to release all of those stuff how do you prioritize the question is people don't ask the business they think they know it better they don't want to disturb the business the business thinks I don't know what IT is doing so all of those people are making a part and this is how it actually goes they process the calls that comes in they analyze the business calls they analyze performance how is the capacity of infrastructure what is being done so it's a typical job of how you're doing operations and how do you improve the level of service delivery we also need to plan change because there are companies who ask for technology optimization bring your own devices go to cloud go to virtualization internet of things how do you do that what kind of changes you need to make that what time window do you have it so all of those stuff is actually brought across for for various purpose and what happens is finally get the financial report so if I want to make three months to six months if I want to make a million dollar budget or one billion how do I get every month so the IT has to come back we're telling how are we going to achieve that so this is how the games look like but essentially what happens is people understand just addressing IT will not make business happy that was the one of the key messages we want to drive across and tell guys you only have definitive time of resources within that particular period you need to deliver things and make sure it actually is profitable to business because if it's not profitable I can outsource you so you are in the mercy of me right so that's how we bring those aspects to understand how the critical dimensions fit each other these were the graphs how was the revenue cost month over month what's the revenue cost what is the infrastructure cost how much did I lost revenue how many times you've had incident decades without knowing what's the cost of the incident we are talking about measuring ticket resolutions we're talking about detect to correct but from detective correct do you know if I lose an incident or if I don't deliver an incident on time what's the financial impact many times you don't ask this question at all we have measured a number of tickets to be resolved which is a very wrong metric about how do we do that so we actually trigger those conversations for them to understand how IT need to be an enabler of business and an integral part of business so what did we get of the results we got people more focused on scope of work and deliverable so people think okay this is my job that's not my job so complete absence of end-to-end value chain people don't know what HR was doing how vendor was doing how procurement was doing so we were able to connect the dots in terms of how these people work together in order to make the customer happy IT to come up with strategic tactical and operational initiatives right so what we did was asking them ours to come up with strategic projects tactical projects and operation projects within the client organization and say how is how much is the cost of capital expenses whether or versus operational expenses we also looked at business forecast pipeline market rings because if I want to be a market leader as a telecom company what does it take to be to that level so we are able to understand from a strategy to portfolio level to articulate it and say how do we get it in in reality so it comes of the business case all of those stuff and from a usage perspective we need to look at not customers alone your users your business all stakeholders so we are able to really bring our to that value of how strategy to portfolio will help to address how IT needs to be aligned with business probably it gives you a sense of what it is I'm not going to further do it what are the challenges what do you think is the most challenge when you bring in IT for IT if you have done before anybody because I wanted to also get your opinion what are the common challenges that you have getting someone into IT for IT change management which is organization change management how many times we say that you follow the new process follow the new rules everything will be okay it'll be a state of utopia people don't understand what is it for me what's going to change from the way that I'm doing today to what is going to be changing tomorrow and we had this instance where you have in an environment of traditional infrastructure and people have to be moving into a cloud offering the first question is will I have my job what will I need to be skilled in order to be on the job so those aspects is the big cheetah that we need to address across right it's important to think just have a look at this the ops perception perception of them is there's bunch of guys having a gala time listening to music and actually coding okay so that's that's the perception of them what's what's their position of the ops these are bunch of jolly guys they go there have fun time all over the place and this is how people perceive things just between development and operations if you are having this kind of a mental attitude think about what people perceive as HR what people think about procurement people think about vendor management guess what we always think we are the best right we always think the other person doesn't know anything we don't open the mouth so it's important that the perception reality has to be checked through organization change management everybody have to be on a stake in the game so we have to internalize we have to communicate make sure that we talk the same language and which is very relevant so when we brought about this it for it one of the things that people loved about it is because they were able to relate to how their current scope of work is adding value to the overall business so what are the lessons learned and it's always a tough thing right I mean if you move on from this it took about 10 to 11 months for us to get to some of the decent level of shape some of the lessons learned is do not just open up everything and say we will embrace everything so we wanted to look at point solutions has look at what are we trying to address and where can we establish quick wins and what's the kind of road map that we do so we needed a kind of a faced approach to look at where we are today what do you want to go next and what does it take so we were actually going through that particular journey in order to get people into some of the hard lessons we learned is subscribed in the next one is what are the mistakes people do an organization change people are often often neglected it's all about process it's about tools people is the last people who can come in so guess what people are not going to cope up with the change there are a lot of naysayers because they don't understand how the new model of operation is going to impact the way I do business and people have a lot of expectations people have you know emotional trauma they they they don't have an option to voice of the European because Marilyn says we will follow this approach guess what people say that oh I think I will my days are numbered I don't know whether my job is still relevant and people think about doing new things with the existing ones it's like people say whatever we did today we will continue to do tomorrow but you get different results that's how people are approaching the kind of same thing and people say that change management has to come from top to bottom all of this we caught us do love you know change management you know it just it doesn't come from top to bottom it has to percolate and has to come change agents across the organization beat awareness beat workshops being understanding how things will change in order for people to get more buying across and then just don't push change people ask people what works what doesn't work and tailor it to work and many times I think the last one is what you need to celebrate success I think many times we are running across like a wild horse where you to stop celebrate those quick wins a laughter meal and stuff like that and then say we accomplished together the kind of oneness and bonding is very important to take it forward so what do you have for it for IT IT for IT has got a great level of resource in the open group so there are a lot of white papers there are a lot of practical case studies so one of them is shell if you go and read their stuff that's amazing because they have really used to the level of context where they see IT as a strategic partner the business so a lot of resources I'm glad and I looked at the the goodie bag there were the pocket guides which was easy for me to refer I think looking at those pocket guys gives you an instant reference to what we need to focus on finally if I want to leave with something as next steps if you can't fly then run if you can't run then walk if you can't walk then crawl but whatever you do you have to keep moving forward so it doesn't matter where you are in your journey of IT transformation or business transformation it's the each every single step that you take towards that direction for going to that outcomes is what will make you go ahead of any questions thank you for the presentation I wonder what I have is we have had this conversation about creating value for business and we had a lot of internal and external workshops but one of the areas where we have found the motivation to be lacking is where okay so I create value for business but the business may not be understanding the impact and I still get what I get currently so what's in it for me I know I'm doing something for the business so how do you address that I think it's a very valid question one of the things that we always think is can IT and business sit on the same table and tell them what do you expect from business so I think it's like a marriage partner the business has to tell IT what they expect as IT to do and IT should be able to relate to certain initiatives or projects or portfolios and say how their aspect is addressing those vision so normally we use a balanced scorecard if you know what's a balanced scorecard so Kaplan and Norton has a balanced scorecard which is into four quadrants so the business will go at level of customer finance operational operational efficiency and personal innovation and then you build on that task from business goals to IT goals from IT goals to IT activities and then KPIs so that way what business starts with you are able to understand how it translate to activities and processes so Kobe it actually gives you a kind of a structure which is actually very useful instrument to go there and talk about it many times what happens is when you when you bring those level of detail you are not talking back to the business and saying this is what we're going to give it are you okay with that because we come at the end of the journey and then say this is what we have probably engaging the business earlier and telling this is what we anticipate to address your business goal does it make sense gives us a lot more opportunity to talk the same language I think that has worked for me many times hope that answers you I have a question here most of the organizations the IT is not directly built it is a proportionate costing and it's a shared service correct so investing in the IT for IT may not be a viable solution and they say it is a because it's a shared service and one of the part of the billing goes to them correct and they have only pity of the other which are directly built so how do you get them convinced that please put money for the IT variety I think it's a very very very very important question one of the things is people think that you know it's for local IT why do I need to have another additional budget for it but the point is coming back again is happy people make happy customers now if you are to deliver value to something externally you need to have the internal ecosystem actually charge them right so what we have seen is we have shown results where if you don't have a motivated task force as to addressing what your things they are not going to be happy people who are going to deliver happy things many big companies in this world have not been brought just because of having super heroes there are people ordinary people who do things extraordinary well how do you think that is pink it's because the leadership sits along with them to make the journey so if you don't make that kind of investment for your own people to get that one guess what people are going to lean right it doesn't matter about whether it's internal or external the service as a definition of a is to deliver value and outcomes without the associate cost and risk it doesn't matter whether you're internal or external so if you're able to understand the definition of a quality of a service then this question must not be arising back for business I think you should put forward the same question to business and say what do you mean by service service is nothing to do with the internal or external the definition remains the right so that's how you need to probably take that discussion