 So, we're here in San Francisco in the Bay Area at one of the largest convenings in the world for the intersection of money and meeting, and that is the Social Capital Markets Conference or SOCAP 11. And right now, this is a real pleasure to be sitting here with Kevin Starr, who's a good friend, a mentor, and is the director of the Milago Foundation. And I believe, Kevin, you are known for your conversations and your relentless dedication towards impact. And so, before we get into what you do, I'd love to start at that more meta-level and dive into some details, but to you, what is impact? To know your impact, you need four things. You need to really be clear on your mission, what you're setting out to do, what you're trying to accomplish. You need to know what you'd measure to know that and be very focused about that. You need to know how to get real numbers that mean something that can really show that a change happened or didn't. And then you need a way to understand what the difference was between what happened with you and what would have happened without you. Microfinance actually is a good example where they looked at their activities, which was giving loans to many, many people, and they looked at behavior, which was people paying back those loans and assumed that if they were giving loans to people who wanted loans and that those people were paying the loans back, that they must be better off. And when a number of researchers started doing more rigorous randomized controlled trials of microfinance, what they started seeing was it was a mixed bag, that a lot of people, maybe 25% or third, were really making a real vault out of poverty, getting somewhere. And then 30 to 50% seemed like they were a little better off, but essentially they were where they started. The kicker was, and the bummer was that maybe 25% of people were worse off because these loans are not cheap. The average interest rate at least a few years ago was 35%. And if you don't have something productive to do with money that's that expensive, it's like your Visa card. And so what's been useful for us is to think about idea, delivery, behavior, impact, so that your delivery is how well did you execute on your idea. And did that change behavior in the way that you believed it would? And did that behavior have the impact you were looking for? We've been talking a lot about entrepreneurs and how they can measure their impact. Of course, we're out here at Socap focused on the capital markets. How does the investment community play a role into this and how can they make certain that their dollars are actually leading to actual impact? Most impact investing I hear about is about people being willing to take a lower return, get a lower return on their investments in order to have social impact or to maximize social impact. And the opportunity cost of that money, what they're foregoing in terms of return compared to what they could get if they went for market rates of return. Well, that's a kind of philanthropy. They're donating that. They ought to know what they're getting for their donation. And so the difficult thing is trying to figure out, given that measuring impact has really little effect on the bottom line, how do we make the pitch that people need to pay for it? And that's got to be a commitment coming from the investor side, because even if organizations do want to measure the impact, they got to have the money to pay for it, and only their investors can make sure that the conditions happen such that they can. And this last question for our conversation, if you could predict the future, what is this place you're going to look like? What are the conversations that are going to be had at Socap five years from now? What do you think will be the challenges and what will people be talking about? What I hope is that, and I actually fairly optimistic about this, that this notion of looking seriously at impact really takes hold. So that in five years, we're taking all these, I haven't met anybody here who isn't completely serious about making the world a better place. And the only way I know of to start sorting that out is some real data. And what I'm hoping is that in five years, a meeting like Socap is really using a broad commitment to understand impact to start defining where money can go, at what kind of rates of return to accomplish what. Sounds like a pretty good time in five years. Yeah, yeah, I'm an optimist. All right, it was well, thank you so much, Kevin. All right, it's my pleasure. Yeah, see you guys soon. Bye.