 Hello and welcome to the show Steve thanks for having me guys. I'm excited to be here We both enjoyed the book immensely and we're gonna get into some of your a bit counterintuitive advice And I'm pretty excited to share it with our audience because I think a lot of the show our audience nods their head and Agrees and then sometimes we hit them with some interesting topics and today's discussion will definitely be interesting But tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got to where you are today. I started out as a lawyer I grew up in New York and Was in law school my second year Vanderbilt Law School and was told by the managing partner of the firm that He didn't think I really had what it took to be a successful attorney And then I should not count on getting hired by that firm at the end of the year or for the next year and also consider dropping out of law school and so I migrated out of the law because I Ended up agreeing with him and ended up becoming a talent agent which is where I've spent most of my life for the last 25 30 years up until about four years ago when I decided to become an aspiring author and communications and career coach and So that's been that's been my life and when it comes to Coaching career and communications. It feels like in today's environment it's rapidly evolving and changing and I'm certain that many in our audience are feeling some pressure in those two areas of what's going on in my career and how can I communicate more effectively and one thing you've talked about in the book extensively is actually seeking critical feedback and I Enjoy it. I know Johnny enjoys it at times. It can be a little difficult But it really provides an opportunity for growth and I think many of us unfortunately shy away From critical feedback and aren't able to actually handle that feedback So dig in why you think critical feedback is so important and how we can get better at actually receiving it Well, I think it's just honestly just comes down to a mindset shift. That's all it is I think that we all grow up with a lot of critical feedback in many areas of our life If we've ever played sports if we played a musical instrument if we went to school We got critical feedback on classwork, you know metrics of writing English math science So we are used to it in many realms of our life The thing is is that I think that somewhere along the way There's been kind of a cultural change Which I do talk about a little bit with great inflation and participation trophy culture morphing into MVP trophy and then HR departments so At the end of the day, I think you should be much more afraid of not getting feedback than getting feedback Because think about most people who don't get feedback unless you're amazing, which few of us are You're really just solidifying your own mistakes and you're not improving the things you could be easily rectifying And so if you think about the danger is are you gonna be in the exact exact same spot? Professionally in a year two three years and then invariably someone's gonna go buy you and you're gonna be expendable So that's what should be the thing that most is creating fear in your life. Is it not getting feedback? now here in the show we have talked to a Number of people who have complained about the self-esteem Movement and the one notably is Steven Hayes the godfather of acceptance commitment therapy And I think a lot of people are well aware of the self-esteem movement and noticed its flaws And how it has affected our youth and of course as they go into school There's great inflation, but the one that stuck out to me was how this self-esteem movement and these ideas have bled into adult life and one of the the pieces that I never thought about but you had brought it up in this book was companies don't fire anyone anymore and and And So that feedback of not being good enough or that you've come up short has now been masked With you're gonna now need to go to these skills training programs And one of the things that I love those if you find yourself in this skills training program know that you're not That you're not being in this program to get the help that you need. This is an insurance policy For the company that you're working for to not get in trouble And so could you speak a little bit about that because I think people need to be aware of How this plays a role in their life and what they're not getting from a flat out you've failed in your job We are letting you go it's interesting the way you frame this I agree with you completely and Funny enough my book really doesn't get that into the macro of this I say it's a problem, but I'm not here to solve that problem. I can't solve that problem That's a societal cultural issue and I can't change all corporate America or the way We're all dealing with each other what I am saying is that on the micro level Hopefully if you're reading this book or if you are You know someone who is not happy with your lot in life So to speak that you're gonna make the change and all this has to change from within right You're gonna be the one that has to demand that change yourself And if you don't then nothing's gonna change and that is the essential framing that I think people should be taking this from We've gotten so used to just be guided through life without having to come to terms with any harsh Realizations and I agree with you. It would be a bigger Battle to change society as a whole But if you find yourself in this position, you need to look at what you're being told critically and honestly which Now plays a role and you taking more Responsibility for understanding where you're at and what is happening so that you can see this as an opportunity for growth Exactly because look, I mean the problem is so many of us we we we mistake No news for good news. Oh, I my boss has never told me I was doing anything wrong I must have been great or you know, I got a good review I you know not realizing maybe they didn't want to tell you why you weren't that great I mean one fascinating thing is I talked to the head of an eight ahead of HR for a major company with almost 400,000 employees and he said well, we stealth we stealthily coach people out We don't even wouldn't even let them know they're on the hot seat They never know it hit them and so like to me that's just cruel But I understand why companies do it because they don't want to get sued and all these other reasons But at the other end of it is an unsuspecting person who probably tried hard and just will never know what they could have done better And that's the scary part in my mind and for me in graduate school getting that Pointed critical negative feedback was a turning point and an opportunity for me to realize that hey the way I'm perceiving the world and the way people are perceiving me is not matching reality And you need that cold hard truth to grow to change to improve and if we're being coddled in Sports and in college and now even in our career We're not setting ourselves up for success in meaningful ways in the things that matter in life The Johnny's point being sent to a skills training program for many people they view it as hey This is a break from work. I'm getting to learn something they don't understand what HR is actually telling them and Certainly don't understand that if we don't improve in this area, we're on the chopping block. You guys are so right It's crazy. I talk about I didn't use the right name in the book I want to protect the innocent but I was hired two or three years ago by a major bank to coach someone who is on the executive vice-president level I mean really high up reporting directly to the CEO and He was struggling with some issues around how he communicated the CFO and how he communicated to the CEO and the board and They hired me and he had no idea. This was like Defcon five He was on the chopping block by the time I got there and he was like, oh you little annoying coach I go don't bother me with your little communication tips like thank you very much And I actually told the bank you guys should fire me because I'm not gonna help this guy He's not really committed and in the end I can't fully blame the bank But I would give them some culpability that they didn't tell him. Hey, buddy Like we're hiring this guy because we think this is a major problem This isn't just some nice thing to have for you because we want to like get you to the next level we want you to survive here and Because that was never communicated. He didn't put the time in the effort in and he was gone in a year One of the things that's upsetting for AJ and I is we've been running live emotional intelligence training programs for the last Close to 15 years and we're seeing more and more young men come in because Well, they've been passed over for promotion or they found themselves already in two of these trainings and out the door And they're starting to realize hey wait, I think it's something with me and The most upsetting thing is they come in so damaged when in actuality It's just a couple small points that if somebody had been constructive They would have been able to not over not only overcome that but then flourish Flourish that you guys just stole the entire You guys just stole the entire premise of my book and one in one little paragraph. So yeah, I mean that's it Well, that is why I enjoyed reading it because a lot of what you've talked about in this book is a lot of the work That that we do at the art of charm for over the last 15 years and you have offered so much practical advice in the book So yes, everyone should pick it up. There's plenty of great insights and plenty of activities and Exercises to get you moving so in this coddling culture How can we get the feedback that we need if you're sitting on the other end of this and you realize and I'm feeling stuck I'm feeling passed over. I'm not reaching my potential I'm sick and tired of seeing people that I think less than in the skills department in the drive department get ahead But I'm not getting the feedback that I need to grow How do you propose we actually go about getting that feedback in a meaningful way? Well, I think first of all make yourself vulnerable to the feedback, you know You got to put yourself in a position where the other person doesn't feel like well if I say to AJ Hey, you know what? You need to work on your voice. He's not going to run the HR and Get me in trouble or never want to talk to me again So you really have to make yourself Available to it in the right emotional state and if you change your mindset and say this is what I really want to grow Then I think the other person will welcome it and then you got to find the right people You know, you don't just want to find someone who is not invested in your future you know, I talk about tough love and part of tough love is love and that love has to be the person or the people in your life that are really invested in your growth and Also find someone that you respect that knows the field that you have the weaknesses and now look My book doesn't cover everything obviously It's just one tool in the toolbox and that's the communication tool of what I call private speaking Which is you know the the aggregation of all our interactions with people and I do think that often that's the tool That's missing that's the tool in the EQ. I know you guys teach EQ in the in that emotional intelligence toolbox That's the one tool that we often don't have the you know Kind of the metrics around it the language around it and really to understand what we need to improve So I think if you do that and then you know to build on that Find a way to get yourself what I would call the diagnostic x-ray, right? If you had anything wrong with you in your life medically speaking you'd go to a doctor and get a diagnosis There's nothing you could do to improve your bad your ill health unless you had the proper diagnosis, but often Once you have the diagnosis there is a treatment plan, right? The problem here is that people don't even get the diagnosis so I hope that answers your question Well, I know myself that Outside of working with clients I have encountered opportunities to give feedback But I've even been reticent to give that feedback because I'm not sure the other person is prepared to handle it Or they truly want it and I feel that there is a nuance to asking for that feedback I think a lot of people will flippantly say yeah, give me the feedback But really they're looking for the positive there. They're not looking for the constructive they're looking for the adaboy the pat on the back the participation the effort and Unfortunately when you're in a leadership role and it's not clear the nuance you are a little hesitant You do hold back because you don't want to knock someone off their feet with something they weren't expecting So you have kids Teaching them to go out and and seek critical feedback What are some strategies for us to to blast through that when maybe our superiors are Just as hesitant to give that feedback because of HR because of past experiences where they got called out Well, it's a it's a great question I think there's a couple things you can do in your life to change that And I you know, I don't have the best company in the world But I do have one good thing going is that I have created this culture where it's a very much of an ongoing feedback 360 kind of mentality so I think one is if you You know, you're the boss if you start asking your colleagues and people that report to you for feedback That's a very good first step because it shows that you're open to it also and you should be like nobody's perfect Right, and we should all wanting you shall be wanting to improve in things even things We're teaching that we can improve upon so that's one thing the second thing that you can do is I think Limit it be very limiting in what the feedback you want is and that's where I think my book hopefully gives you the opportunity to create a very Productive and constructive conversation. All we're talking about is your communication. I'm not telling you I don't like you as a person. I'm not telling you. I don't like your wife or your boyfriend your girlfriend Whatever, I'm not telling you anything that if I just ask you hey listen AJ What do you think about my authority? Do I come across as someone who seems competent and if not why not is my voice good as my body language good Do I make eye contact when I speak to you now? You're getting down into a very molecular level so to speak and when you get into that molecular level It's less personal right if I was to say to you look AJ I don't like your empathy. You just don't seem like a very empathetic guy. That's hurtful, right? That's a very global thing to say to someone But if I said AJ I think you need to be warmer and the way that I think you could be warmer is if you smiled more When I spoke or if you made eye contact with me and you acknowledged me more when I'm talking that's less personal right and You know, it's funny like my daughter and I've been playing tennis now in this pandemic and she's 13 and I'm as of two days ago 54 and She's telling me what I could be doing but daddy you're holding your racket open like this What are you doing and she knows that I want the feedback? I mean not as much as she's been giving me but we have a very constructive conversation about it Well, happy birthday happy belated birthday I think for a lot of us Getting drilling down to that molecular level that you're talking about is where the meaningful change can happen If we get global feedback. Oh, you're not warm enough. You don't have enough energy What what does that mean and how do I actually parse that into to change in my own behavior and the way people are perceiving me? And I think most of us gloss over those Generalizations because they are not prescriptive enough for us to act on You know, I love that you said that because you just stole one of my big sentences I always say what does that mean? So I use it in the context of I I I'll say to somebody If if you were graduating from college and you did have on your report card You know, you're a major and let's say you majored in in biology and you had a three eight and you had an a in biology an a-minus in chemistry and blah blah blah And then there was something that said eq, right? And you got a b-minus in eq You're responsibly. What the hell does that mean? What am I supposed to do with that? Like that's so not actionable and that's why I tried to get you know funny, you know I'm not that popular in this because then there's something you can do because to your exact point if you hear this amorphous Global just gobbledygook word and I've actually gotten some critical feedback on my book People have ripped me on social media going. What the hell is this guy talking about? What does authority mean? It's what a dumb line or what is warmth these things are so stupid They don't mean anything and I want to write back. I agree read the book Please I agree with you, but I can't do that of course Well, I appreciate that you you read the critical feedback and you do seek it out in all these areas and you know Johnny, this is an anecdote from when we started the company I I joined the team a little late I was in graduate school and we were running one of our first programs And we were getting some feedback from the customers after the program And I remember sitting in the room and we had some business partners in the past who were allergic to critical feedback Didn't want to hear it wanted to put their fingers in their ears And I was like no this is where we improve we need this information And that forged a bond with me and johnny realizing that if you're truly growth minded the positives are great Everyone loves to be built up But the negatives are also a really important way of weighing that out to build not only the emotional intelligence But the self awareness needed to be a competent leader and communicator Now in the book you talk about a few studies And there's one seminal study from the carnage foundation around awe And you started to talk about some of these concepts and you got some critical feedback on these concepts But let's dig in there what you mean by awe and and how we can actually make this more prescriptive in our feedback I will say this in defense of my critics All in and of itself is a meaningless term and it is a very Broad topic and i'm not reinventing the wheel here by talking about authority warmth and energy These are words that have been around their language for hundreds of years and in and of itself. It's worthless but What i'm suggesting is that if you put real Meaning behind authority real meaning behind warmth and you dig into it and you figure out a way to deconstruct it Just like you can deconstruct anything if somebody could figure out how to deconstruct that shirt that you're wearing And maybe make it with a little bit of a finer cotton for a little bit cheaper They might put that company out of business somebody could deconstruct Anything right and that's what I think that's what I think life is interesting is in the deconstructing and the rebuilding right and so What awe is is a way to I mean in a very It's funny. I'm going to use this term It's to deconstruct yourself in a constructive way and to figure out a way to tear down those walls a little bit Analyze them and come back stronger in all those categories So that's the broad answer and I can get into each of them if you'd like We will and and the remarkable thing about the study that and this is done in 1918 Right and this is this is stood the test of time. It's been replicated many times and and many of us get this wrong 15 percent of your success is determined by your proficiency That's a bucket of cold water for a lot of our listeners who pride themselves in their proficiency 85 percent is the ability to actually connect where the communication happens And I would say in this environment. It's even more important when we are all working remote We're all on zoom. We're more disconnected than ever Being able to connect is how you're going to ascend in your career and become that authority So let's dig into authority first because there are some components I think you made a really really good point I do think it needs a tiny bit of clarification because I think some people not you but some other people are going to misinterpret that data So what I have heard from other people is oh, well the 15 percent is not that important because it's 15 percent But that's not true. That is not true If you want to be a dentist a doctor a lawyer anything requiring technical skills a podcast host You better damn sure be good at the 15 percent The 15 percent is very important. It's essential The reason why I think the Carnegie foundation study and the replications of it only has it at a 15 percent correlation and causal relationship Is because that part of life is what's so taught. That's where all the resources are That's where all of our time and energy goes and we we all not all but many of us can master that 15 percent technical part With enough training and so you end up competing with so many people That are good enough on the bell curve of the technical stuff that that can't be differentiated That's the part of your life that gets commoditized. So I just wanted to make that point And that's a great point because we're certainly not discounting that 15 percent But realize that that's not the whole picture and unfortunately a lot of us because the way we're raised because the way we're trained In starting out our career we put all of our focus and effort and energy there And then we wonder why we're not ascending into leadership roles Why we're not taking on more responsibilities and just flat out why people don't like us And you could be as proficient and as skillful as possible And we we see this with clients who are doctors and lawyers and they still end up coming to our programs because they go I'm not connecting with people. I don't have the influence I don't have the authority and I've heard that I don't have warmth, but I don't really know what that means So how how do I build that? so Well, let's let's unpack a little bit further because I think we talked in a recent episode around authority I know that a lot of our listeners would love especially starting out in their career to to gain that authority So what do we mean by that? What are the the discrete skills that we can really focus on? okay, so think about it in terms of Everybody that you're going to be competing against like we talked about earlier in the 15% They're all good enough in the substantive qualities of their job, right? Let's just in this pretend hypothetical or enough people are So the question is if everybody's competent Substantively it comes down to who is going to be able to communicate that competence and excellence Stylistically and remember the most competent Excellent person on the substantive side Is not perceived as the most competent person on the stylistic side and that really matters And so the problem is is that the end user Doesn't even know who's more competent, right? I told this before it's in the book a little bit I ended up having uh woke up one day last June with just the most horrific Pain in my leg. I've ever felt I thought I had a blood clot. It turned out that I have bilateral rheumatoid orthitis in both hips that I needed double hip replacement And I went to living in New York City one of the benefits of New York City is that We have the finest orthopedic hospital in the world in the hospital for special surgery And so I went to see a doctor and he said you need to have your hip replaced I wanted to get a second opinion and this guy gave me a second opinion You need to have your hip replaced and then my wife who was dealing with her own medical issues Had this physical therapist that she became So uh beholden to she loves this guy if he told her to get brain surgery I'm pretty sure she would go and get it and so he said look don't get operated on until you go see Dr Edwin sue you guys just go talk to him So I went to go see Dr. Sue and he said you don't need You don't need hip replacement surgery. You're a very healthy at the time 52 almost 53 You're old guy. You're in perfectly good shape. You have the you have great hips You really need this thing called a hip resurfacing surgery and it'll preserve the bone and all this stuff and The the previous two doctors were like, you know, the best Medical training they had gone to the best residency programs, etc, etc as did dr. Sue So they all had the 15 percent But he communicated with a level of detached authority that he was just like look I will do anything you want me to do or I'll do nothing go have the surgery from someone else But I am telling you and he did it so much better than me. He basically said I'm telling you This is the right and best surgery for you. You're gonna have the best recovery You're gonna have a great life with this surgery and in the end I said sign me up and he operated on me did an incredible job And I'm waiting only because of the pandemic for the other hip because he can't do both at the same time and that Incredible quiet self-assured authority the the lack of salesmanship in his quote unquote salesmanship He had me at hello. It was incredible Well, he must have done a good job because you're out there playing tennis with your third two-year-old daughter So do you want to go through the points of of his authority To sure yes like this out Yeah, first of all, it's being emotionally committed to your own words, right? I'm very committed to my own words in a very emotional high energy way He's committed to his own words emotionally in a low energy way So that's one thing but you have to have that emotional commitment. The second thing is your body language You know, you have to communicate in a way that's consistent with your words I think when you say something in you're very self-assured and you're looking into the person's eyes and saying Look, this is what's best for you. I'm telling you that's a level of authority The third thing is I talked about this detachment is that you can't be married to the outcome that you want This is not your outcome. It's their outcome and if you have that level of assuredness Paired with not needing to have your way or to be right or to have that outcome That presents his authority and then there are some of these the little mechanical things like Finishing your sentences strongly and completing your words and ending the sentence as strong as you started it Having inflection in your voice. The other thing is not using filler words And having a strong voice standing up straight, you know leaning into someone And those are the things that I think you can do as a high energy person a low energy person a tall person A short person doesn't matter and he did it in in that way and I was you know, it was very obvious to me How committed he was for me as I got more into sales learning dissecting and helping support the company I realized that if I went into these calls these sessions outcome driven and so focused on proving to this person that it was the right Decision for them the more I attached I was to that decision the less likely they were to listen to me follow up respond And that ability to be detached from the result to say, you know what if you don't believe me go to another surgeon You know, we're not a good fit then That is such a commanding presence that immediately strikes that authoritative chord with everyone universally But many of us are too attached to the outcome are too attached to what the other person thinks or feels And I love that you highlight that so that our listeners can realize Am I being too attached to this outcome? Am I communicating that this matters too much to me? That's turning the other person off and losing that authority that i'm trying to gain in my career I think it's true and and listen There's a guy who did not make it into my book that I interviewed that I just want to highlight him because I think He was the one who taught me about detached authority I didn't really even know the term until I met him. His name is dr. Alec Miller and he is a friend of mine from the University of Michigan and he went on to become a A very prominent Doctor of psychology. He has a phd and he's an expert in child A teen anxiety depression suicide prevention And he has a very very well regarded clinic in westchester new york Where he takes on the highest of the high risk that the parents will take them to dr. Alec Miller when they really feel like there's no hope that their children could ever get out of this horrible depression And he talked to me about the onboarding process of this clinic and he said that He tells people look, I know that you're depressed I know that and again i'm paraphrasing it in a way that he did it much better But he says to the extent I know you have this problem I know what the light at the end of the tunnel looks like for you. I know it's 17 You can't see the future, but I know I've been doing this for 20 years I know 37 can look like for you because I have 50 people who are 37 now who are married with children Living great careers. I know what 33 looks like and on and on and on this is what the other side of this looks like This is not a bleak place. It's a bleak temporary place But you have to be fully committed to this process and if you're not fully committed Exactly as I want you to be on my terms You are not going to be allowed into this program and I don't mind if you say no It's okay And he said in the time he's been doing this only one person Refused to be committed to the process and he did not take the person And it's it's it's heartbreaking to think about not taking someone because you might be doing them to a possible suicide Or a life of depression But he said it didn't matter because he knew he couldn't get the outcome that he needed And wanted for them if they weren't committed to that process And that's where I think I learned about that power of detached authority Detachment is certainly Powerful it's going to it's going you're going to present Your argument in a certain way when you're detached from that the other thing that I love that you brought up was filler words, I know for myself The longer we have been doing Podcasts and the more work that aj and I do on video that is one of the things that I've always looked at and Not only is it filler words that are showing up very prevalent in the way people speak nowadays We also have the issue of The computer communication that we are all so comfortable when we use on a daily basis And that is now showing up in our regular conversations An asynchronous communication when you're standing in front of somebody Doesn't work in the same manner and it comes with its own set of complications and certainly the only way to be able to See that for yourself as you mentioned and one of the things that we do in our classes is to film People and film their communication film their interactions Which is an incredibly scary thing to do and I believe you've even mentioned in your book that some of your clients Found it difficult because the the truth is right there. It's staring you in the face Yeah, I mean I understand and I agree with you. It is scary on a certain level But look I wrote a blog piece for some an hr magazine recently and I talked about how Not looking in the mirror and not getting feedback is the equivalent of never going to the doctor and you know God forbid, you know any of us right now had polyps in our colon You know if you went and ignored that for five years It could very likely turn into colon cancer and if you ignored it for long enough It would be It would metastasize and you'd be dead Nothing you could do about it by the time you had symptoms, right? But if you go for regular colorectal screenings or if you're a woman and you get breast cancer screenings, you know We can eliminate 90 percent of if or more of these problems And I think that's the same thing with your own communication flaws If you look in the mirror, it might be a little uncomfortable to see the quote-unquote Polyp that you're communicating with but if you can eradicate that before it becomes a really bad habit And or it dooms your career and maybe your life to a level of mediocrity Then That should be the thing again that should scare the hell out of you is not looking in the mirror now You mentioned earlier a 360 review and we recommend it with a lot of our clients that we work with But let's unpack that because I think that is a way for you to go get that quote-unquote rectal exam to make sure that you're healthy right um Look, I think that In my own life, maybe it's just because I wrote a book like this. I have um You know people coming up to me all the time giving me feedback if people will see this podcast Two or three of my friends will call me and say hey, wait a minute. Why are you so dark in there? What's with your hands? Why would the body language or you're talking too fast? Like and I'll say well those guys had me very excited I'm sorry, but I'll go back and listen and they'll invariably they'll be right But the point is is that if you create this in your life Then it doesn't have to just be a once in a while thing and look nobody wants to be under the microscope all the time But if somebody has the freedom and the latitude to be able to say something to you in the moment It could not only be really good feedback for you, but could also help you Save yourself in a situation that otherwise could be bad for you and I'll give you a good example of that About six months ago. I had a really important meeting in my office And we were sitting around a conference room and I had my phone under my desk under my in my pocket and about an hour into the meeting a 28 year old guy in my office I'll give you his name Kevin Belby He he he texted me and he told me to look at my phone and I looked at my phone He sent me a text and and he politely said Shut the f up. You're talking too much knock it off stop it and I was so happy Like here's a guy who's 25 years younger than me who just basically Slap me across the face, you know in this meeting I mean obviously the guy the other guy in the room couldn't hear it But the fact that he had the freedom and the latitude and the presence to know that he could say it And that he said it and that it was great advice And I ended up taking his advice and stopped and the meeting ended up going a lot better That to me in a nutshell is what you should be striving for Yeah, that ability to reach out to peers to reach out to friends to reach out to people you worked with in the past And get that 360 feedback on those gaps that you're unaware of and we're all walking around with these blind spots We cannot perfectly perceive reality around us And there are a lot of beliefs and stories going on and emotions that are blurring That reality from right in front of our nose Now I want to get into warmth the w and aw because I know we have a lot of women listening And this is a loaded term and a lot of women have heard feedback on their warmth that Is sexist is detrimental to their career So one, how do we break down warmth and two, how do we get actual important feedback on this and not the generic? Hey, can you smile more? I don't really like the way you carry yourself at work right so warmth exists whether you like it or not right and this again, I Harper Collins would probably kill me for this but this book is not for everybody If if you're the type of person who doesn't want to hear feedback That's not suitable to your particular sensitivities. It's not right for you right But the the bottom line is that it doesn't change the fact that you may not Ascend in the way that you want in your career because you have a lack of warmth even if you hate the word right So use a different word, but you're still lacking whatever that word is What it is is that it's the ability to connect with people right and it's the ability to make people trust you and at the end of the day the most important thing in my opinion in any relationship is trust and trust bleeds into authority And authority bleeds into trust going back to my doctor if he didn't speak with an authoritative tone And also speak in a comforting tone. I wouldn't trust him He could be have the best hands in the world to use a knife, but it's it's not going to work so There are a lot of components that go into it one is Just making the other person feel As if they exist in the relationship I'm not operating on you because I'm an egomaniac and I want to put another notch on my belt and put more Data into my computer. I'm operating on you because I care about your health and your well-being You know, I want to be on your podcast today not because I want to sell books I want to be on here because I want you guys to have a good experience interviewing me And I want your listeners to get something out of this if they don't I'm a I'm a useless waste to you and I should be right And so if I don't approach the relationship with that level of warmth and acknowledgement of what's in it for you Then why would you trust me? You'll never have me back, right? and ultimately, I think if you Don't recognize again the Uh molecular aspect of warmth Then you're going to be at your own peril I think one key component that many of us and we've talked about this Especially with the rise of social media in our phones is attentiveness And we don't realize how we carry ourselves in a distracted state That is leading people to not view us as warm Instead they're viewing us as couldn't care less arrogant aloof And this is feedback that I got personally in my life and it was Jaw-dropping to get it at first because I certainly don't feel that way internally. I care about people I I have empathy. I I am emotionally connected to my peers But I wasn't showing it because I was distracted. I was in my head I was thinking about something else when important information was being passed when emotional bids that needed to be validated were being shared And when we're walking around without that attentiveness and without a layer of relatability Well, people are going to judge you negatively. There's no getting around that 100% just like you're going to judge other people negatively if they did that to you Even if you didn't even want to you're going to do it. It's just a subconscious reaction You're going to have to people and to your point like having that aware having that awareness around that level of You know like inattentiveness that you talk about That alone might help you make a really great change in your life If you can bring that level of self-awareness to the moment for everyone to understand the effects That it is having on us I would certainly love to get to a place where everyone Realizes hey, I'm going out which means I will be leaving my phone at home And I'm going to be in the moment and connect everybody because that I mean to know that whoever you're talking to is Circuitry connected on emotions and being in the same room just because you're in the same room does not mean you're in the same conversation and I think it will go in Certainly a long way in helping us solve a lot of social issues that we're having right now Can I say one quick thing on that? It's funny I this is like a maybe a very meta or surreal thing to say but I've been actually thinking during this podcast because I have a horrible phone addiction I'll admit that to you terrible and And in the last, you know 45 plus minutes. I haven't looked at my phone once Because we're on zoom maybe even more so than if we were in front of each other I'm trying to glue myself to you guys looking at you directly. I'm actually thinking Plus to me at least this is a great conversation about a lot of interesting ideas But I've been thinking this is a fantastic conversation I wish all my conversations could be this enriching and rewarding and frankly you guys are so present in the moment with me That i'm feeding off that so in a weird way Like I feel like we're achieving everything that I'd like to achieve in the rest of my life So thank you Well, we appreciate that and we feel the same and I think as we talked about to start this many of us Aren't on do not disturb. We're looking at our email or checking notifications Even when we're on zoom and guess what the other end of that conversation is feeling that they are perceiving that And subconsciously they are docking you in the warmth category Now there's one other component that I I love about warmth and is a big big point for me and johnny and that's humility And it's so easy to get drunk off of your success and your accomplishments and all the hard work and effort energy You put in and many of us Especially with the way that social media amplifies the opposite We aren't as humble and we aren't as full of humility as we need to be to create that warmth Now if you're feeling that this is an area to improve What are your suggestions because I know that when I first realized that I was coming across as not humble and not full of humility Man, that was difficult for me to rectify and find my way back to well It's a great question. And I I think the answer for me I can't say it would be the right answer for you is When I married my wife almost 15 years ago I I was not a particularly religious person And I would say I'm still not all that religious but she is and my children are being raised in observant faith And the thing that I've gotten out of it more than anything else is This idea that she keeps hammering home to us is that we're not the center of the universe You know if you believe in a higher being which I do Whatever whoever your god is it still is I think the consistent theme among all religions is that we are just mortals and we are not Gonna live forever and and we're not that important in the grand scheme of things And I think that should give you a level of humility and also a sense of purpose in your life That you are here to serve other people and if you're not serving other people then you're not I think at least performing the mission that you have in life and ultimately Marrying her and and and adopting That aspect of that mindset that we really aren't the center of the universe to me is what I would call Insta-humility and it's a big dose of it every day when you look when you wake up every morning I don't know if this is true of christianity or Islam But in the jewish faith There's a prayer that you say about like thank you god for restoring my soul And and and letting me have another day on earth And if you say that it brings to mind just a tremendous amount of humility in your life every single day And I think if you can have that whatever your faith is you will never ever lack for humility ever again And your point about being in service to others Takes your ego from the driver's seat to the passenger seat And creates that space for you to be humble and not focus so much on yourself Now the e in awe is energy and I think many people misinterpret this as oh wild waving crazy over the top I need to bowl people over with my energy and for many of us who might be introverted is not our default temperature So to speak that that seems like a quite a challenge So let's unpack energy to make it more palatable for those of us who aren't just over the top Sure. I'm really glad you said that because Energy is very misunderstood energy to me Is a dynamic that exists between people or among people depending on how many you have And no matter what there is an energetic exchange between people and it can be either energizing or deflating right You just know those people you want to have more of them in your life in those moments And other people you just want to have less of them or none of them and for some people You can be to your point You can be very high energy and you can be deflating everybody around you because you're not giving anybody space to have their own energy. You're also Not modulating it properly and contrarially you could be a low energy person But I do think again energy works very much in concert with warmth So if you are the type of person who might be a little bit lower energy But you're very very good at acknowledging other people. You're very attentive to others. You're a good listener That high high warmth not only creates a lot of warmth and connection and trust But it also creates its own kind of energy that you want to be around that type of a person And look, there's no one-size-fits-all approach to this. You have to figure out what works well for you But what I think you do have to do is figure out how are you kinetically Connecting with other people in your energetic dynamic and what can you do about that? And that's where I think your focus should be Yeah, I think a lot of us modulate our emotions to a degree where other people can't even perceive them anymore And certainly in highly analytical jobs, which a lot of us tend to fall into our career We start to view that emotional connection as weakness or something that's not as important And to your point that steals away from that energy and that ability for other people to feel connected to us I I agree with you and it's funny the way you describe it It's like I don't know part of me just feels like Look, who are we all faking? Who are we kidding? Like I mean, we're all human beings. We're all like We're all afraid of getting sick Our god forbid our children dying our parents dying. We want to have good health happiness We want to have friends. We all have the same insecurities And it's you know what I mean like I'm sorry, but I don't give a damn who you are if you're Tony Robbins You still have the same insecurities that I have And so once you realize everybody's full of shit gives my language and we all have the same insecurities like I think I find that liberating it's liberating and If we can all just be a little bit more I'm not saying go walk around with your heart on your sleeve every second of the day That's not what I'm suggesting But if we can all walk around just a little bit more honest with ourselves and be a little bit more vulnerable We'll connect so much more with people And we don't have to hide as much. I think we got the title of your next book. Everyone's full of shit My friends will all say my friends will all say it should have been your autobiography, you know Well, I was just going to say one of the words that I For energy or that encapsulates it that you one of them Enthusiasm and if you could just show some general enthusiasm for where you are What you're doing who you're talking to for yourself being alive in this moment This is not a great stretch to do Any of those things and it certainly goes a long way if i'm standing next to somebody who is excited to be next to me I'm going to be that much more excited to be hanging out with that person no matter where it might be You're 100 right and I think you really hit on something that is I think a very important point for people to realize which is You talk about enthusiasm Sometimes you're just not enthusiastic, right? I get it, but who cares? Sometimes your job is to be enthusiastic Damn it, and you got to show up with some enthusiasm You know, I hate to quote woody allen, but he did say, you know, so 90 of life is just showing up And sometimes you got to show up with enthusiasm You got to do things you don't want to do and you do it for other people because they're going to do it for you And that's the bottom line your job is to be there for your colleagues sometimes and to be enthusiastic with them And I talk about this in the book is Part of life is a performance it is i'm sorry It's part of it's a performance and sometimes when you just don't have that energy or enthusiasm for someone else But you should know damn well that they need that Well, it's your job to do it and maybe you guys are doing a podcast one day And maybe aj needs you to pick him up and he's picked you up before and you just like I don't want to do this But you know what? You got to do it because that's what being a good teammate is and that's what being a good colleague is And I I don't want to hear from people. Well, I'm not enthusiastic Well, just be it if it's important in that moment It's certainly a the lamest excuse of i'm just thought that Uh enthusiastic and for aj and I working together for 15 years. There's there's certainly times where we're showing up in different places especially With all the uncertainty and craziness that has been going on as of lately Aj and I have both relied on our on each other to To carry each other through this um, I also wanted to to say to that aspect of For myself When the pandemic hit one of the things that I wanted to do to make sure I've kept up my chops and to learn about something new Is that I've been going live every weekday morning to our social media platforms And of course some days I have plenty to talk about and i'm really excited But to do that every morning at 8 30 you can imagine that there's going to be times where like What the hell am I talking about today? And I can't believe I'm going to go in front of that camera However, there is a a few things that I'm going to do before that happens. I'm going to work out I'm going to drink two cups of coffee. I'm going to have a big smile and People always comment about the enthusiasm that I have for going on but there it is a performance There are internal switches that are going to be turned off and on For myself to be able to do that and to do it at a level that I feel consistent and I'm happy with Right, right. Well, I think you're you're you're you're pointing out to the fact that you're professional That's what you are you're professional and you're showing up and it was I think it was Derek Jeter Who I think he was quoting Joe DiMaggio saying how he every time he go down He went on on the ball field He tried his hardest because there might have been someone who was watching him for the first time in the last time And that was his mindset and you know, it was funny. My mother once said to me when I was right at a law school And tried to get in their workforce. She said, you know, not everything is going to be fun every day and she actually said Do you think Derek Jeter or whoever the short stuff was at the time Do you think he likes fielding ground balls for an hour every day? And he is fascinating to think about it and not every part of your job even the glamour jobs I I can't imagine bruce springsteen loves spring singing born in the usa for the five millionth time But if you heard him in concert you would think he was singing it for the very first time every time Can we also state that he is going on for about three plus hours every night? Oh As I put and as somebody who's been on the road For our 40 minute sets you can that is a blink of an eye It's incredible to be up there for three and a half hours every other night if not every night at his age to Do that amount of catalog of of music. It's incredible. It's it's it's it's incredible now There was some counterintuitive tips that I mentioned earlier What I wanted to unpack because I feel like this bit of advice is powerful But many many people are unfortunately doing the opposite and use advised practicing inconsistency with everyday replies What do you mean by this? And how is this so powerful because we've talked about it on the show and and people kind of look at us funny They don't realize the autopilot that they're in exactly You know, there's a guy that I know from my business Who I I think I referenced this in the book where you'll say to him. Hey, I won't use his real name Hey, joe, how you doing and he's like, oh great never had a bad day in my life or never had a better day in my life And you know, it's it's complete bs because of course like he's had bad days in his life And there are people that answer the phone the exact same way You know, and and I just think it you talk about authenticity That's a lack of authenticity Nobody is that consistent all the time and it also lends itself to a lack of vulnerability If you have this mask that you have to have on and you have to have this persona This character that you're playing all the time to me You're not going to fool everybody and it's really hard to play that role all the time You know, I Oscar Wilde said it best be yourself everyone else is taken And I think if you can just master being yourself and the variability that creates you'll connect way more with people And I think in general those sound bite answers to your point are so disingenuous that people just Immediately are like this person's not vulnerable. This person's not real Oh, we're just doing this trite back and forth. And that's why so many people hate small talk And and you can stop people in their tracks with giving them an honest answer about how you're feeling and what's going on in the world around you instead of oh today's another great day and When we encounter those autopilots and others I also encourage you to break them And and try to get them out of that loop because many of us are just walking around not even realized yet And it's such a great power not only yourself to not fall into that trap But also pull other people out of that and that's how you're going to stand out with that awe I agree and I have tried to do that with some of these people and it becomes a fun game That you can that you can play with yourself and look I've also found that There's one guy that I know in my industry who is like I used to say about him This poor guy must be so tired at the end of the day. He was a Competitor agent He must be so tired at the end of the day because he has to go home and take off his cape and take off his mask And it must be exhausting for him. And you know like what one day I just decided to screw it I'm going to try to break this guy down and this is probably 10 15 years ago And now he's become a really close friend. We go for he comes to new york We go for cigars. He takes me to a club. He belongs to we drink and he's behind that mask Is a great guy and I want to say to him Why don't you show this to everybody? You know and I and I just get sad for him that he doesn't show it to enough people Now we love asking this question of our guests We talk about the x-factor being the right mindset and the right skills And you've had an amazing career and now you're coaching and and having all these breakthroughs for your clients What has been your x-factor if you could pinpoint something that's made you unique? I do not Care about rejection. I do not care about negativity. I don't really care about You know setbacks. They don't bother me And like for example This book hasn't sold as well as I would have hoped it would done If if we weren't in the middle of pandemic I would have done 15 in-person appearances and television appearances and everything got cancelled But you know what I don't care Within the limitations of my life right now. I'm going to go full speed ahead and that's that and That's just the way I've lived my entire life And I think it goes back to being that I have a younger sister but being the third of three boys being kind of the fat kid getting made fun of getting teased and You know, I don't know just it created a level of resiliency in me that I personally think it's my greatest gift And and and by the way like halfway through writing this book about a year and a half into it We sent the manuscript to harper collins and they hated it They literally hated it And I was fairly certain that the that the contract could be cancelled and I have to give the money back And my wife was like, who am I talking to this isn't you you're not going to quit And I called up the editor and I had a meeting with her at starbucks and I told her I'm going to make this work. What do I have to do? And she said go make it work rewrote the whole thing and thank god they accepted it But that's the mindset. I think you have to have in life and and luckily I always say like if you have the gift of being the fat kid As a child and you can get made fun of and and get teased and be that kid Who everyone else makes fun of but hopefully loves also like john candy and stripes That's the way you want to be raised. You don't want to be the kid that never gets made fun of I I would never want to redo my life as a popular kid. I love that advice We love ending with the challenge for our listeners as you picked up in our conversation They're overachievers striving to break out of the norms become extraordinary If you could give them one challenge to end with what would it be? Just Figure out one thing that you don't know about yourself today That's holding you back in your life and make a vow to improve or eradicate that within 60 days. Excellent advice All right, well, we want to help you sell more books Where can our audience find out more about all this amazing content in the book itself? One stop shop. All you have to do is go to ww. steven sd e v and hers h-e-r-z w-w that's steven hers.com You can follow me on all the social media platforms read all the writings I've done and podcasts and also Even download a free eight page guide about the book and hopefully and send you all that critical feedback Exactly and you can also buy the book right from the website or go to amazon.com And I just want to thank you guys you guys were great really amazing conversation Thanks for all the interest. Thank you for writing the book. It was fantastic and definitely a must read for our audience. Great