 Good. This is Wednesday, October 21st, 2020. We are in a prep call toward the Open Global Mind workshop that we're having on the 22nd and 29th, and whatever else comes up. So just kind of catching up and seeing where everybody is. And I got a note that George had been waiting in the waiting room since 8 a.m., but I think he had 7 a.m. Pacific or something. So I wrote him and I hope he shows up. Yay, Ken. Hi. Grizzly Homer. You're muted. Hello. Good morning. Stay there. Just sort of let's dive in. Let's not do a round of check-ins right now, but let's head toward anything anybody's curious about about the workshops, because I don't know that we've done the best job of laying everything out. But any question at all was good to ask at this point. I wonder if you could give a quick recap of what the prep is and maybe kind of what the what's the elevator pitch for where we are, where we're going. Cool. So there's a bunch of different kind of sparks to open global mind to the reason we're sitting here, and I can go back and tell the pieces of that story as well. But what we're trying to do right now is figure out to get a little bit more collimation, congruence, cohesion, harmony, resonance, and then maybe more mission, structure, objectives, approaches, process to use different language around what are we doing here? What are we aiming at? How do we work together? And to that end, Matt Saia and his crew at Collective Next have offered to host a workshop, and the workshop was going to be just on the 29th, and then because this is a big and multi-part thing with many people interested and involved, it's turned into kind of a rolling workshop where tomorrow on the 22nd, we're going to start looking at what we're going to divide up into, we're going to do breakouts, and whoever has created something by tomorrow, we're going to sort of look at those and see what that is, really in order to generate more of those, and so that we can have a whole bunch of ideas on the table by the 29th where there's a program for five hours that has us separate up, pitch each other our ideas, hopefully some of which we've watched beforehand because we will have posted them on Medium or wherever or on YouTube, and then synthesize each group's ideas and then come back into Plenary and try to synthesize the large ideas, and the sort of the magnets for what to talk about and what we're interested in are in a document that Matt put up which I'm not staring at right this minute, I'll go find it and put up the link in a second, I'm sure Pete has it and we'll put it up in a second as well, and the document basically says has a couple key questions up at the top that roughly correspond to what I'm saying, and then some other questions that are just operationally we would love to walk away from this workshop having answered these kinds of questions. Hi Christina, hi Stacey, and so and OGM is kind of intentionally broad, and so there's a whole bunch of different kinds of questions to ask. Also OGM has attracted people who have specific interests in particular domains whether it be education or food, the food system and soil fertility, soil health, or finance and economics and next generation economics or the philosophy of how to fix the world, and this workshop is not for any one of those specifically, but it's meant to try to figure out how does OGM help all of those special domain interests do their work even better, and so we're trying to answer a bunch of different questions like that. So tomorrow is just the hour and a half the regular sort of 90-minute time slot for the Thursday calls, but we will do mostly breakouts there to share ideas and come back into Plenary Code the end and then the following Thursday has a program that runs five hours. Thank you, thank you Pete. The following Thursday has a program that goes five hours and we have some open questions like okay so other than creating media and adding hashtags to the media so I'm we're suggesting the hashtag OGM 2025 because the conceit of the workshop is let's pretend it's five years from now and that OGM is a success let's pretend that that OGM is flying and doing well what what made it get there what what what caused us to succeed and what are we doing that works really well right and it's nice because a brief brief tangent but one of my mentors early in life was a guy named Russell Acuff who was one of the people who invented systems thinking there's probably a half dozen eight or ten people Stafford Beer, Arduous Unchown, Eric Trist, well West Churchman mostly unfortunately men this doesn't overlap that well with Margaret Mead and sort of anthropologists of the same era this is a different kind of a different group but I studied under Russ when I was at Wharton and also a little bit under West Churchman and Churchman was Russ's mentor and they were busy inventing systems theory systems thinking the way we think it now so a long time ago in the 80s my mind was blown open in the sense of Russ would say there's really sort of no such thing as a problem there are systems of problems and you can't extract data for one problem in society optimize the results using operations research techniques plug those things back in and expect the thing to work to work you have to actually think of the whole system and then do systems kinds of interventions etc etc awesome thanks Christina and and and one of the things I loved about Russ was that he could express really sophisticated ideas in 10th grade language and one of the things that irritated his peers in in sort of the academic community was that he refused to write academic papers he wrote books for management and he consulted to all sorts of large companies and a bunch of he's also consulted to Iran and Mexico Iran before the before the overthrow and he had a process called idealized redesign that I participated in which was really cool and he would have people get together and first he would soften the ground sort of he would soften their minds for in this case two days worth of lectures by him telling what were called ACOS fables basically stories from his consulting career about how to solve problems in very different ways which was super cool and then he would bring people together in tables of seven plus or minus two sort of Miller's magic number seven plus or minus two because that's how many things you can pay attention to and remember with different departments and different levels in the organization so the VP of marketing might be next to the janitor and that was totally cool and he would then move them through an idealized design workshop where he would say you show up on Monday and your factory and your headquarters have burned to the ground all of your records are gone your database is gone and this is in this is in the 80s so this is early everybody doesn't have a PC on the desk kind of thing quite yet so it's kind of getting there but everything's gone now reinvent your company starting from the mission statement and we would walk through that and it was it was like and then once you had something to aim for that you understood was plastic then you you creating some kind of plan or making decisions in the now was easier because given two candidates for a position who were basically equivalent roughly you couldn't sort of distinguish them on qualifications you could then look at the vision and go which of these two candidates matches this future better and that gave you a different sort of discriminate for who you wanted to bring in or what you wanted to do or what your next thing was going to be anyway long I guess longer digression than I intended but I was sold really really early on on the idea of trying to get what you know what you might call beginner's mind and envision some interesting new reality and then find your way to it because the incremental thing we tend to get stuck in and here I'll put in sort of no mathematician but this idea of local minima in a fitness landscape and we tend to get stuck in little local pools we tend to get stuck in local remedies and unless you kind of float up high enough and think about things that are so you know different enough you wind up coming back into that local pool because humans adapt really well we grew behaviors really well we like sort of things that we're accustomed to we build systems and habits easily so getting somewhere different is actually kind of hard for humans and all too often it requires trauma or tragedy or or crisis and fortunately and unfortunately we seem to be driving our collective truck into a series of crises so the good news of that is that it's probably going to drive some change the bad news is that it may not be the change we choose it may it may lead down entirely the wrong sort of rattles so that's a bit of framing for why ogm 2025 and then we're asking people to put together media of some sort a blog post or a video or whatever oh cool um oh thank you it's right and you you you've cruised it that's awesome right this is this is i'm getting a little tiny taste of what it would be like to have an ogm conversation right pete um and um because normally i would have gone and done and done what pete just did in my brain while talking and screen shared and blah blah blah it sort of didn't occur to me to start doing that because i was trying to keep the digression kind of short but but there's this juicy sort of thread of who's been thinking about this for a long time which trickles down into ogm neighbor communities the kinds of groups that i would love to approach to connect in to ogm uh sort of for a two-way exchange of value and and a piece of what we're trying to figure out in this workshop is what is ogm's unique value like like what do what do we bring to the party why are we here why don't we just dissolve and join theory you why don't we just dissolve and join game beat why don't we just dissolve and join and i can name and i've got a really long collection if you go to ogm neighbor communities and scan that that would be really interesting because that list would be super useful um in the chat because because browsing it takes a while but if you can just sort of see it and cruise down that's cool um um and so well and i think that we have certain things that we're looking at in ways that we're doing things that are in fact considerably different but i think we can also borrow a tremendous amount of dna from neighboring communities who've done things really well we don't need to reinvent everything from scratch we need to borrow wisely appropriate and adapt and then add to it our point of view our perspective our secret sauce you know to all beef patties no the secret sauce recipe was never made public was it um but you remember memorizing that little ditty right yeah um only if you're of a certain name sorry um but but we're sort of aiming toward that um and so what we'd like is for people to create some media post it share it for us to do like flipped workshops so that we can watch a lot of this before we ever get to the conversations that would be great so between now and the 29th we're hoping a bunch of people create points of view about what to do answering the questions that are in the document that pete shared in the in the chat earlier which is sort of the workshop design document and then collect this up together to create our own working agreements about how do we work how do we how do we for example um how do we for example approach another community and build a bridge what does that mean and who sort of how do we explain ourselves to them what do we offer them uh how do we bring them in all of that that's probably a little a little rhythm or path or or trope that we'll figure out and we'll do how do we get a work group that cares about something and right now there's a little subgroup called free jerry's brain which is mostly um extremely geeky people and me and we're trying to figure out how to get me out of the brain software and into something uh more open more shared more whatever but the shorter term goal is just how to extract some of my brain data into a space where we can experiment with it which is much more short term which which we're sort of pretty close to having which is part of what pete is doing right now um so so that's a subgroup so one of the things that we need to figure out in this workshop is how do subgroups go say who wants to play with this go do it come back report into the whole let's say here's what we learned here's how it fits here's how it improves our view of what we're doing so that that's a thing we need to figure out so part of this is to figure out what what do we borrow well um how do we do that oh awesome that's that's the list it's a long list um christina what are you asking i'm wondering if you can follow the thread like a cove really built on um i can't remember either james or william james or a student of james william james yeah they go back to churchman to james so i'm wondering who recently is like the most uh direct lineage in terms of thinking this is a little bit idealized design it's sorry this is a little bit like who goes who trained under osensei uh when i keto there's there's lineage in dojos and all that um uh there so the weird thing for me and y'all may have different opinions is that when you say systems theory i see like baskin robins of systems theory today i see that that but like you you tap 12 people and ask them what systems thinking is and you'll get 12 sort of different but overlapping answers with very different framing and language and so systems theory seems to me to have melted into the landscape in some sense um and and and christina i don't know if that's different for you i was like just google it and yeah and i can go back and idealized design was was i don't think anybody ever reified that i'm not sure he wrote a book about it it was one of his many tools like he did peter put a link in that i found a book on oh cool well that's great i didn't even know about that i'll have to add that to my brain it was in your brain i'll have to realize that i put it in my brain how about that um and so uh yeah so so i know a few people who studied under a cough who are still around in fact peter sangay um attributes a lot to to a cough so he i think he said in their a cop not sure but sangay's sangay's pretty major and he sangay kind of popularized systems thinking as a corporate approach back in the 80s um so he kind of opened that door wide for people but but a cop was extremely corporate friendly which is super interesting to me um he consulted he knew augie bush senior of the anhauser bush family of anhauser bush before they got sucked up into in uh he knew forest mars of the mars company one of the world's largest private companies he was consulting to alcoa martin marietta um the governments of iran and mexico uh and a bunch of other large companies i'm forgetting right now um but he was he was very very credible uh as a corporate consultant and then has had a bit of a revival recently um yeah who comes down from sangay is a really interesting question and i don't know whether auto charmer or theory you connect up into that lineage i think there is some some connection there and auto is doing really well as uh as well but um anybody else have have thoughts of who who would belong under that umbrella or in the in that in that descent not so much um and at one point um i have a i have a desk at a little design firm here called zebra design and zebra means beautiful and farsi because the guy who founded this thing 36 years ago uh his family was in the us when the shaw was overthrown and so they had to say so he became an industrial designer and then early in my sort of tenure there i have weekly thinkathons with people i took a big whiteboard and i did a history of systems thinking and then a history of design uh trying to include all these things like user experience design you know all the different variants of that and then put some names on this chart and sort of left to right over time uh trying to point to the fact that we're heading towards some kind of fusion of strategy and design disciplines that nobody's quite mastered so mckinsey's kind of the the top dog in the in the strategy business and they've had plenty of bad crises now so their reputation's a bit soiled uh but then you get ideo which sort of had its rise and fall as well but what does that space look like now where we actually intentionally design strategies that are more emergent and and to me that that's background that's really interesting for our efforts here because one of the things we might realize we are is we're kind of role models or strategists for building this this interesting future which takes us back to ogm 2025 thank goodness and i would be excited to be part of that that road trip um let me pause there that was a whole bunch of stuff uh christina that was a fun question uh anybody else with uh thought and jack we just uh we just did a bit of a history on systems thinking uh coming to that from an explanation of the workshop that we're doing and uh and pete is using these the skim brains uh functionality we've got in mean brain to dump a bunch of thoughts in the chat which is like really exciting because it's cool it's cool to see them spill out um as we're sitting here talking that's it's it's it's a it's an improvised version compared to actually like using the brain and doing stuff but it's immediacy and it's sort of persistence here in the chat is lovely cool any other thoughts questions from there additions to the story curiosities about the story in the meantime jack could probably talk for an hour about how this stuff threaded into systems design uh software etc etc because jack's been through those battles focusing on how humans share knowledge together and can you had your mouth open you were about to say something i stepped on that go ahead hold on a second um yeah you know me i'm gonna say what's the role of somatic intelligence in this um i wanted to actually make an offer um i i know the design is pretty firm i'm not sure if there's any room in there but i'd like to make an offer at the beginning to maybe take 10 to 15 minutes and bring people into an embodied listening state so as they go through um they're listening from different places than just their heads of oh here's i'm gonna respond to this is what's stirring up for me but really getting into a different mode of listening than than usual because i think one of the things i've learned over the years is you know you just like if you are going to go run a sprint you don't just start from a dead you know stand still and run a sprint you warm up you you know you jog a little bit you stretch a little bit and so we have a tendency when we get into these um convocations of we're going to do some really great work i'm just starting from a stand still and and racing and some kind of warm up of let's get ourselves our minds and bodies connected and limber to really be present so um that was my my question and my offer that sounds great i will i will put that in front of matt and we'll slide that in the in the schedule that sounds really really really good and and it reminded me of something else he reminds me of something else which is um a cough for all that he was a genius at communicating with corporations and explaining really complicated things in simple ways had like really low emotional intelligence and social intelligence and was was kind of clunky like his his wife worked in the same building in the library and when they left work she was 20 paces behind him and they would kind of go off uh and and just another weird little tangent at the same time i took a class because at the Wharton school you could take classes from any of the other graduate divisions which was really cool it's one of the reasons i wanted to go there and so i took a course from uh ed bacon who was the head of the school of architecture and urban planning and ed bacon had been the city planner of philadelphia for 50 years and so i took a course from from a cough and bacon at the same time and their social intelligence were at opposite ends of the spectrum and bacon was like just phenomenally on point with it and just watching what they had done their achievements their lack of where they had not achieved things and fallen flat was was super uh super interesting and a tiny footnote anybody know who ed bacon's son is you can do this pita i thought you'd do this kevin bacon so i'm two degrees uh and also ed bacon had three kids two of whom one of whom is kevin bacon the other two of whom are a conductor and a musician who were like really really talented like like really interesting and fruitful uh a cuff was busy doing things in west philly with local youth that really turned into a productive thing for for philadelphia and then when those individuals moved away the whole situation went south uh so there was all this sort of learning about development and all that was really it was super cool i was very lucky and and the reason there we go uh and the reason that i knew it all about a cuff is that at the beginning of my second year one of my roomies who was in the program said come with me there's a seminar you should drop in on and so we he just walked in with me we sat down at a table you know six or eight students and a cop at the head of the table telling a cost fables and i'm like oh my god my head like started to explode so i so i started taking courses in there anyway um back to our our show which is already in progress um other questions or thoughts about how to improve the workshop and in particular i think um i'm interested in how do we assemble how do we assemble answers to some of our important questions as we go now there's a second google doc which is the one that i posted at the first little sort of pre workshop like this one where we i just asked a bunch of questions and all of us just poured ideas in and then he'll put his a couple diagrams in there and a few other things and that's a that's a really really rich diagram rich document that doesn't really map to uh the design document for this workshop but a lot of the answers or at least partial answers to the questions are in uh the second google doc uh so one question is how might we best collect up and organize our answers so that they're easily browsable um and an ultimate answer to that might be and this is i think way beyond the range of this workshop but an answer that would be happy making for me is how would you create how would you instantiate an organizational sort of strategy and practice as a pattern language and what would that mean what would that look like and i i would love to to play with that um and i think that pattern languages are sort of uh uh pattern languages are to wikis as peanut butter is to jelly so it would make a lot of sense for us to put up a small wiki to do just a pattern language or something like that um i don't know uh i could also sort of instantiate a pattern language in my brain where each of the patterns sort of maps in but they link together as they link you know in in a pattern language that would be kind of fun but um but for this workshop do we just create a google drive folder and put a bunch of things in it do we have a master spreadsheet or document that has slots for the answers and then bubble down the still answers how would anybody recommend we go about um collecting up our answers and and and making them shorter simpler i mean part of this is how do we make this simple to to digest and absorb and propagate um april's been giving talks recently about the future of work and one of the points he makes is that net scapes uh sorry not netscape netflix's policy for vacations and off time and all that is a five word policy they don't have a big thick manual it says do what's in do what's in netflix best interest i guess that's six words i'm getting it wrong but but it's it's like a principal approach instead of a whole bunch of things to sort of mind and do which is super interesting that is a that is a crystallization and a distillation combined with an act of trust in the employees that leads to a very different approach toward how how you know policy things get resolved so that's part of it go ahead yeah sorry i am kind of dropping in and hadn't heard what came before and sorry didn't read the document but i'm reacting strongly to pattern language and i do think that it's an opportunity to do to have a centralized thing as opposed to a google drive with many pages to read and nobody will bother reading all the pages because everybody's concerned with their own answer whereas if they're forced to interact on the one singles spreadsheet you may have a chance that they'll notice something of somebody else's and then the question becomes what are the slots in the what are the fields right i do think that of course there's a question of what what problem are you trying to address but scale is hyper important uh is it you know yeah scale powers powers of 10 uh how many people are involved uh range of course and the other thing that's extremely important i think is very much a question you asked me at some point what do you need uh because one thing i'd like to see as an outcome of the workshop is if different projects can build on one another but that means knowing what are the inputs and the outputs what are the needs and the uh outcomes for each project and that should be hyper explicit now i'm sure there's other components uh for example the digital presidential mix uh on real time offline uh you know fast and slow thinking these are all interesting criteria but i think there's something else which is more about what it is which is different of course here's a flip applicability strategy is one single doubt it's not the only one and and i think probably a couple people on this call don't know what a pattern language is i'll do the the two minute backgrounder um there's a an architect an urban planner named christopher alexander who was up here in oregon back in the 70s and 80s he and a bunch of colleagues wrote three books that were really significant back then one of them is called a pattern language another one is called the timeless way of building i think and the third one is called the organ experiment which is about a a campus they designed together using these principles a pattern language says that you can distill wisdom down into these little sub patterns and these patterns kind of nest so there's 383 or they're about patterns in the book and the one that i love that i use as an explanation that kind of makes the point really nicely is called light from two walls and so a good pattern has a beautiful short memorable title and when i say oh that we could do that but that would violate light from two walls it clicks in place because you understand light from two walls which is a room to feel warm inviting hospitable should probably have natural light from at least two walls it's not a rule it's just a guideline it's just distilled wisdom and if you have a media room where you're going to watch movies you don't need to have two you know natural light in there because you're going to shut down you're going to put blinds on the windows and play the big you know tube in in front of the room but but if you realize this rule and then start walking around the world into rooms you realize that there's a beautifully decorated room but it's long and narrow and only has windows to the street over here and that the light is not bouncing around in a warm way and you'll realize oh this room this room doesn't have light from two sides like from two walls there we go like from two sides of every room cool thanks p and and so these things nest i think the last pattern is make special spaces for kids for children and it's like build a little niche where only kids can go and play something that's special for them there are there are patterns for the transition from outside a house to inside a house there are patterns for the siting of a house in a lot there are patterns for the placement of doors and windows in a wall though each of those is its own pattern with a memorable title and then there's a there's a pattern to the patterns which is like why does this matter what is it uh etc and that's what makes a really elegant pattern language and there have been many many other pattern languages created since then i collect them in my brain so i put a link to that in my brain in the chat so enough on that other thoughts on pattern languages while we're on this topic p i've got a i've got a obvious certainly a fondness of pattern languages and protectiveness where i think that when we say or when i i hope when people say a pattern language they actually mean the richness of alexander's patterns pattern language actually so i i i guess i like to differentiate between a pattern which might look you know different it's got context and and description and and solution and things like that but then a pattern language for me has got the full set of stuff that is in each of alexander's patterns and on top of that it's got hyperlinks between all the patterns and you know a few connections from each pattern to other patterns and then also a hierarchy i think one of the brilliant things about alexander's a pattern language was the hierarchy of stuff going from you know really big to really small and i worry when people say when people kind of pick up the baskin robbins version of a pattern language oh i'm going to talk about there's a pattern of i you know i see a dog and then i like to pet it and i see a cat and i like to pet it we have invented a pattern language you know and that makes me super super sad because a pattern language was this brilliant intellectual construct that conveyed a ton of information in multiple layers of context not just context locally but context you know a little bit bigger than that in context globally within the whole system so a ask for me is when we say a pattern language we aspire to you know the example that alexander gave us i like that christina puts in the pattern soft pets lower stress the two small notes patterns and wikis are like peanut butter and jelly the one of the first wikis ever by word cutting them was the portland pattern repository and he did this with friends and they actually sort of set up a bunch of software patterns in there which are pretty interesting i think one of them is the best is the enemy of the no what is it best oh man i don't remember it best is the enemy perfection is the enemy of the good yeah but there's a there's a different phrasing point that that's like that exactly and then secondly i have this sort of thesis about design from trust that came out for me in the last decade and i talk about pattern languages as a form of design from trust because the intention of patterns or one of the intentions of patterns as i understand them is to take civilians who are normally outside the process and arm them with enough language and understanding of the subtleties and important sort of aspects of the task at hand building a house and putting it somewhere to participate in the design actively you're kind of you're kind of gifting them knowledge and vocabulary and some some wisdom from the trade so that they become co-designers with you as opposed to oh we did we built our own house which usually means you picked a pattern you chose what rug to put in what color to paint the walls and what knobs to put in the kitchen which is how a lot of people think they designed the house so um so to me pattern languages are important also because they and i'll use the word democratize here but i don't really like that word because it's so complicated but they definitely sort of filter they offer trust out to anybody who cares to absorb what's in the pattern language and participate in that way and then for our practical purposes they're a crisp and simple way to absorb how work gets done and what what community believes oh cool uh romer please jump in yeah uh could you please give me a simple uh description of what a pattern which is what so uh the the pattern a pattern language is the book about architecture urban design and it has 380 some or 370 some patterns in it and they they they they range from uh the mix of green space and living space and parking space and workspace all the way down to i think the last pattern which is make special places for kids and any one pattern and p p put a link to light on two sides of every room so if you click on that link you can go look at one pattern which has a title a crisp description like why does this matter and i'm i'm not looking at the link right now but um basically if that's a really we should do a share screen real quick oh that's a good idea uh let me just uh share screen and do that for getting my own tools so here's light on two sides of every room um and so here's sort of there's kind of like a this this pattern and in a wiki each of these would be links to the other pattern so this is pattern number 159 of all the patterns in a pattern language this also links to wings of light positive outdoor space long thin house those are all names of other patterns uh here's an image for to to anchor this pattern and then here's the state when they have a choice people always gravitate to those rooms which have light on two sides and they will leave the rooms which are lit only from one side unused and empty it's a pretty big declaration but but it's kind of saying that livability varies by the bouncing around of natural light therefore here's what this pattern tries to state locate each room so that it has outdoor space uh uh outside it on at least two sides and then place windows on those outer walls so that natural light falls into every room from more of the one direction and then it goes on to explain sort of how the how this works like why did we say this why does it matter uh and there's a couple of charts sort of uh showing what's up and then it goes out and adds a couple more links to other patterns and and the the whole idea of the pattern language is to distill wisdom hard one wisdom from some domain from some some from some practice area thanks me other thoughts yeah i i was very much enthusiastic about the pattern language i still think it's wonderful we are trying to build something emerging so we're not that the hard one wisdom yet that we have our individual hard one wisdom but we have to realize that we're dealing with trying to build a pattern language or or some of us may have our own internal pattern language i'm pretty i don't but uh we have to be a bit more lenient with the fact that it's not full-fledged well articulated well uh coordinated pattern language yet but i think each of our efforts is addressing some patterns we've noticed and i think that identifying them and i think that we yes it's right that many of us will be addressing many communication pattern flaws right and that's a very different orientation it's about saying not just what is our project entrant and extent but saying you know we've noticed these anti-patterns in uh collective intelligence collective thinking and we think we can address those anti-patterns with these processes or tools and i do want to insist on also processes because uh hence i wonder if there's two pattern languages in the building there and uh i don't know if it's helpful but i think being able to say what are we trying to address is going to be useful actually because being aware and here we all have hard-won wisdom uh on anti-patterns of communication and articulating that i'm sure would be a useful outcome um can you go deeper into anti-patterns i'm not sure i can explain anti-patterns well there's also dark patterns which is its own separate topic but i'm not familiar with dark patterns so i can distinguish them but anti-patterns are simply a harmful pattern so you can recognize features because it's a pattern and and this is an anti-pattern in that you can't it's something you should know to avoid and like uh electing a president who lies all the time is an anti-pattern it's it's a good pattern it it's very it has strong and resonant and does a lot of interesting things but it seems like most of the things that it does is bad so it's an anti-pattern yeah uh so a dark pattern would be something that's essentially evil um so that would be something like as a world leader i will lie all the time uh and say that everything is wonderful and i'm the greatest and then i'm going to make everything good yeah mark you're running for office speed you mentioned about the anti-pattern and it's something that you mentioned that we have to avoid is this always the case so are we categorizing this like this is a good thing and this is a bad thing or is there something in between that or you know i'm not sure what the optimal yeah heuristics are all about applying things to case but in the original pattern language design the notion that a pattern should be applied in certain circumstances and nothing others and like there was something called forces in the pattern template saying what when is this pattern useful and when is it it could actually be harmful an anti-pattern i think is something that is always pretty much always harmful uh like i know my coding patterns better than my social patterns so the obvious uh the coding anti-patterns are also known as bad spells like big bag of big ball of code is the classic example right uh you know go to considered harmful uh when you have uh and often you have the anti-pattern is the mirror of the pattern but there are many of the good patterns very much had domains of applicability and i think that's absolutely normal we're dealing with heuristics so you also have kind of an epistemological question about you know what's good and what's bad so in Christopher Alexander's pattern language what he goes for is what creates the most life what creates the most vitality so and light on two sides is actually a good example of something where his assertion and and you know our our observation of his absurd observation is assertion uh is that yeah it does feel more alive if i'm in a room that's got at least two sides of light so so again back to my my example of a hypothetical president so an anti-pattern for the country if if the anti-pattern for the country in this case is that if we have a president who lies all the time bad things happen hundreds of thousands of people get sick and die um the dark pattern is interesting because uh at least for me i'm using dark pattern as evil basically so the dark pattern is good on one side and bad on the other side is good for the president who lies all the time and gets you know more success because of it it's bad for everybody else so he's being extractive of of good and turning it into personalized good instead of you know social good and i'll add just from the perspective of ogm that chronicling the dark patterns and understanding them well is really really important is almost as important as understanding the positive patterns and i've got a thought that i'll share in a second which is like trump's favorite his playbook his favorite tactics and it connects up to gas lighting to you know all kinds of other things to basically use other people's money lie constantly move so fast you can't sort of be caught on stuff work like the mob you know which means i'm i'm going to suggest that this might happen i'm never going to give the order so that michael cohen when he's testifying can't say well we didn't actually say go do this thing but i understood that i should go do this thing that's how the mafia works right so so i think that making these things explicit then allows you to point to them and say oh that's how this person is working therefore maybe they're less trustworthy than we think they are but these are also productive these are also these are also underhanded but valid strategies if you see the world as war right if you see that the world is just a one big war and we need to win whatever means we use are okay because what matters is staying in power at the end then these are just tactics and and so we're busy applying sort of ethics to to the matter which then lead us down a particular path of the tactics that are appropriate and those that aren't but but on all these things what's good or bad is at some level you know we when you get the genocide you're like clearly evil but then there's like gray areas at one point you tell white lies in order to get people to do things and there's a whole group of ethicists and philosophers who would be really interested in that set of patterns and that cluster of ideas of how to create policy etc etc right and then that runs up against whole ethical frameworks like the notion of freedom which is eating our country right now there's a whole bunch of bad things being done in the name of individual freedom. So just I introduced anti-patterns with a very concrete aim to say that when we document our project we should say what anti-patterns are we trying to solve and maybe what anti-patterns are we still unable to solve and that are still obstacles to us and again can we build on one another solutions if we found find that we have different sort of you know anti-patterns that we can solve I think identifying anti-patterns or having kind of two sheets with links between the two sheets here's the patterns here's here's here's the here's the anti-patterns here's our so the patterns we use in our solutions solve those anti-patterns and which ones I think that would make it much richer. So I'm going to propose that one of us I'm going to ask and request that one of us put up a simple wiki for a pattern language for OGM possibly using the wiki links that we that we just saw for sort of the new wiki platforms Christina and Jack both put up wiki links I don't know what it was to the same the same yeah it was the same thing as wiki. Jack is the tool and and you can see if if it's visible I'm not sure if it's visible the non-members are not the digly thorn is running on that tool so you can see the instantiation of it. Thank you it's modern and it was picked by people who know tech so it's not like an old style wiki it's it's fast and but should we use dig life's wiki for that work or should we create a new one I'm happy to host. Can somebody who's not a dig life member just click on the link that I put above? I did I did and it works that's fine. Oh good perfect and I'm a dig life member and Christina is one of the founders of dig life and there may be several other dig life members here I don't know but if I'm really there we go Mackintosh. Editors would need to be part of dig life and we'd have to figure out what the visibility if it's 100% visible or if there's sections that are not that are members only right. I can certainly set up another instance just for that purpose and I'd be happy to so that we're not you know filling the dig life space with that conversation which is separate unless you want to host it which is different but that's a separate question and what we're just before I turn it over to Pete what we're the conversation we're having right now is a conversation that I'd love to go a little deeper into during this workshop which is somebody else has invented something that's really cool that's really close to what we want to do but maybe not exactly how do we collaborate with that how do we not how do we not create yet another resource that duplicates their effort and then forks it if there's no need to fork how do we participate in their game the way by their rules and the way that works for them how do we make that a part of the the rest of the assets that we're working on so that it integrates with what we're doing how do we improve the tools that we're touching all of that is part of how ogm works right and so so the question of should we set up a separate wiki it is clean should we go join dig life and and be editors in big you know that's a really interesting question that we need to answer more broadly here and not also like the brand ego question like it's also just universally an interesting pattern because brand ego even with the most collaborative most amazing people who has the ultimate url seems to be like this sticking point that's just kind of horrible that's really interesting and so there should be some patterns about the conversation we just have now Pete um i need to talk to mark entwine and Christina about collective sense commons which has which is in the same space or or another place where we could host pattern languages uh christine and i have already made an appointment for leader today to speak cool that's awesome today is relatively free for me uh i mean i'm work i have a lot of work but i can't no set schedule um my question across all of those is how do we make sure that anybody finding ogm if they dig in the right corner finds the others finds the other people finds the other projects finds what do you mean the others projects i think that's one of the big important questions is how for me one of the use cases that i want to solve for is new new individual new new entity organization how what is their their journey just to use the language of user journeys what what is or what is their journey in through what ogm does and how did they find their way to some place where they might want to put energy into something that we're doing how do we find our way to help them and their organization like what is the what is the exchange of value there how does that work and that one answer to that is there would be a role in ogm called the human router or some variant of that which is people who just know where things are and what you do is you go and you have a you have a chat with the human router and they go they're like oh you should talk to pete and an and ken and then go look at these two links right here and and that is the old school way to solve this problem and it's really good because it forms relationships it's it's sticky it's social you start to figure out how things work by by the mere interaction with people that's a great solution to this another answer is we find somebody's machine learning and we apply you know some kind of search algorithms to the space of what we're doing and there's a special query engine that only has a domain a search domain of the project that we put into it and then that leads you to hey here's five hits go follow this which is much less personal and may be very good maybe not don't know just one small thing about uh ownership uh i've also set up a federated wiki farm on my server and uh being a fan of wards work but because it's fed wiki it means everybody can have their own fed wiki instance because i've set up a farm they can have their own wiki instance on my thing but then that's url ownership but the point is they don't have to they can totally have it on their own url and use the federated wiki mechanism to pull things together and again we could have a no gm federated wiki farm i'm happy to help set that up if that's appropriate but it does i think it's less owner-y than a single wiki and i have had trouble loving fed wiki i've tried i've tried a bit and i can't i can't speak in fed wiki just like i apparently can't speak in kumu uh gene bellinger tried to tutor me on how to make kumu diagrams and i apparently do not think i think like the brain i do not think like kumu i well that's interesting yeah the things i would create were the opposite of what he was creating and when i looked at what he was creating i'm like oh that makes so much more sense so so fed wiki is an interesting ingredient here but i i would have a hard time playing in a fed wiki wiki got it yeah ken yeah i'm just i'm i'm trying to track this conversation i think this whole thing around pattern language emerged from your question about how do we as we're in the workshop how are we actually going to document it i kind of wanted to look back to that um so having had this lovely amazingly enlightening conversation a lot of which i'm going to have to go off and research because i'm out in the dark here but have we come any closer to what we're actually going to do during the workshop to to track things um i think uh i've been part of a kiko chat um open space where he set up ahead of time google docs for every single breakout room and i think we should have that might be a really good idea to set up google docs ahead of time for all the breakout rooms including not just a google doc but perhaps a google sheet and a google drawing so that those who want to go in and and create some graphics or when i try and put things in a grid and have people um sort of documenting in real time in whatever form they're comfortable with and then i think i need a team after the workshop to kind of go through and sift and sort and put these things in the place but that's just what's coming to me us off the top of my head here so a couple comments for this one if you can just ask we have five minutes left in this call but if you can ask a couple of the questions that you're in the dark about that'll help because i'm sure other people have the same questions too we're this is a very ogemi question because like what tool do we use to share what we know and and one tool that people are answering this with his miro and i'm just when i go into a big miro board i browsed one yesterday which is the noosphere map uh which got put on the ogem list and like everything in here i love i cannot navigate this sucker this is just not working for me um and so people are trying really hard to do beautiful you know information design in miro and miro which is this competitor in other kinds of tools so one of the big questions to ask and and hopefully answer over time here is how do we get better tools the simplest answer at this point is a shared google drive and a bunch of google docs and spreadsheets and drawings which i which i like a ton and i'm you know i think most people are now fluent in those tools they can find their way around and and if we're good about the curating afterward to do the cleanup and the to make sure that there's you know directories that lead to all the different documents and i i think we're doing pretty well there so i think i think that's our near-term answer i think um i kind of brought up pattern languages as a wish list thing like i i think i as i started explaining and i was like and this is not something for the workshop right now and then we were all like no we love pattern languages so i think that by the time of the workshop we'll have a wiki going and some of us may some may break out and start doing pattern languagey kind of stuff during and for the workshop as a way of consolidating condensing what we're learning and what we're what we're deciding together and we can easily elaborate any of the patterns to have links out to those google docs to whatever else to wherever the specifics are that inform that particular pattern and i think that would be really rich and interesting and so and so it could be that a month from now we we tell newbies hey go start at this pattern and just nose around for an hour and then come back and then i'll route you to some people and that might be a really nice sort of onboarding process i don't know i'm making this up as we talk but i'm hoping that through the workshop we start getting some of these things uh in in place in a in a good enough kind of way and i found some of those links the the best is the enemy of the good uh from richard gabriel who is uh a genius last questions go ahead marcon john i thought we would do some um of the pattern language before the meeting so we would know how to connect better and ask people to pre-fill like you're speaking of doing pattern language work after and of course it's not mutually exclusive but just checking on the before part i was i was thinking originally that pattern language would have to come after it sounds like it's like a thing of the moment right now so the moment any of you have a pattern language hosting spot up we will probably start doing one for this so i agree with what you just said and i think that by the time of the workshop we'll have a fledgling language kind of starting to do things uh sorry peak go ahead um one of the things i heard marcon john bring up when he talked when he said anti patterns uh right before that i think he said one of the things uh in an emergent situation is that you don't actually have a repertoire of patterns that you have collected together that you know you've curated in your head or whatever so each of us has different patterns but there isn't you know there couldn't be in a way a a set of wisdom that's a pattern language um so i think wherever we end up pattern languaging um uh christina is right some patterns help emergence happen um i think i think it's i i think i think linking in and easy capturing is important and i think also being able to capture anti patterns as as well is important and then a last thought along this and it's in programming very often now at the top of your program you'll basically include libraries you'll be like you know include this include this include this include this which then for your program gives you a bunch of features and calls and functions you can then execute during your program and and that the existence of these libraries is hugely important to programming so i'm starting to think that we can also include pattern languages so that for example um ogm cares a lot about discourse and democracy and deliberation so there's an include statement or whatever the equivalent is in pattern language that says go over and look at the wise democracy pattern languages language it is included by reference in ours go look at you know the the portland pattern repository in terms of coding and and agile and all of those things or whatever its descendant is whatever its best descendant is and we're including that by reference in our own so that we're not rewriting these we're not you know and we can sort of weave into those other kinds of pattern languages i think that would work nicely uh last thoughts closing thoughts i want to end right on the hour which is sort of now um i hope this was helpful um thank you for all the links thank you for the rich conversation unexpectedly enthusiastic about pattern languages which makes me happy because my heart has always warmed up when i start thinking in terms of patterns i'm trying to create patterns and and in particular because i love well crystallized thinking i love i love few words that say a lot that are easy to remember it as j uh as j golden would say so the retellable story is a form of pattern in the in a sense um so cool so see you all at 7am pacific tomorrow on the ogm call go prepare some media for for this thing go go go make something and put it in front of the rest of us we will we'll absorb it and it will become part of the food for this whole thing mark on 20 on the last word uh pete when do you want us to meet uh christine and i are going to meet it through you today um if you're available i also um if you don't shut the zoom right away i can go grab the link for the dig life zoom which is next for me cool happy to happy to keep this open until you've got that link in here thanks thank you any other last minute things cool um for those of you who had never heard of pattern languages you have a little bit of browsing to do which will be fun a pattern language is a great book to just pick up and drop in any place it's a little yellow covered yellow jacket a book that's just really beautiful i've got it on the shelf outside here um and it's just kind of inspiring to see what happens when people try to try to explain something given the tradition and the the the knowledge of whatever their domain was cool so there's the zoom um stacy do you want to jump in yeah can i can i get a copy of this with the chat because i'm on a phone and i can't save the chat i am going to i'm go as i usually do i'm going to post uh i'm going to upload the video to youtube i'm going to send a note to the ogm list that has the chat and the video and everything else in it so you will get all that thank you thank you you bet you thanks thanks for being here thanks everybody see you tomorrow some of you post-view bye