 Introduction to Utopia This is a LibriVox recording. All LibriVox recordings are in the public domain. For more information or to volunteer, please visit LibriVox.org. Recording by Jenna Lee Utopia by St. Thomas Moore. Introduction Sir Thomas Moore, son of Sir John Moore, a justice of the King's Bench, was born in 1478 in Milk Street in the City of London. After his earlier education at St. Anthony's School in Threadneedle Street, he was placed as a boy in the household of Cardinal John Morton, Archbishop of Canterbury and Lord Chancellor. It was not unusual for persons of wealth or influence and sons of good families to be so established together in a relation of patron and client. The youth wore his patron's livery and added to his state. The patron used afterwards his wealth or influence in helping his young client forward in the world. Cardinal Morton had been in earlier days that Bishop of Eli, whom Richard III sent to the Tower, was busy afterwards in hostility to Richard and was a chief advisor of Henry VII, who in 1486 made him Archbishop of Canterbury and nine months afterwards Lord Chancellor. Cardinal Morton, of talk at whose table there are recollections in Utopia, delighted in the quick wit of young Thomas Moore. He once said, Whoever shall live to try it shall see this child here waiting at table prove a notable and rare man. At the age of about nineteen, Thomas Moore was sent to Canterbury College, Oxford, by his patron, where he learned Greek of the first men who brought Greek studies from Italy to England, William Grossen and Thomas Linnaker. Linnaker, a physician who afterwards took orders, was also the founder of the College of Physicians. In 1499, Moore left Oxford to study law in London at Lincoln's Inn and in the next year Archbishop Morton died. Moore's earnest character caused him while studying law to aim at the subduing of the flesh by wearing a hair-shirt, taking a log for a pillow and whipping himself on Fridays. At the age of twenty-one he entered Parliament and soon after he had been called to the bar he was made under sheriff of London. In 1503 he opposed in the House of Commons Henry VII's proposal for a subsidy on account of the marriage portion of his daughter Margaret, and he opposed with so much energy that the House refused to grant it. One went and told the King that a beardless boy had disappointed all his expectations. During the last years, therefore, of Henry VII, Moore was under the displeasure of the King and had thoughts of leaving the country. Henry VII died in April of 1509 when Moore's age was a little over thirty. In the first years of the reign of Henry VIII he rose to large practice in the law courts where it is said he refused to plead in cases which he thought unjust and took no fees from widows, orphans, or the poor. He would have preferred marrying the second daughter of John Colt of New Hall in Essex but chose her elder sister that he might not subject her to the discredit of being passed over. In 1513 Thomas Moore, still under sheriff of London, is said to have written his history of the life and death of King Edward V and of the usurpation of Richard III. The book, which seems to contain the knowledge and opinions of Moore's patron Morton, was not printed until 1557 when its writer had been twenty-two years dead. It was then printed from an MS in Moore's handwriting. In the year 1515 Woolsey, Archbishop of York, was made cardinal by Leo X. Henry VIII made him Lord Chancellor, and from that year until 1523 the King and the Cardinal ruled England with absolute authority and called no parliament. In May of the year 1515, Thomas Moore, not knighted yet, was joined in a commission to the Low Countries with Cuthbert Tunstall and others to confer with the ambassadors of Charles V, then only Archduke of Austria upon renewal of alliance. On that embassy Moore, aged about thirty-seven, was absent from England for six months, and while at Antwerp he established friendship with Peter Giles, a scholarly and courteous young man who was secretary to the municipality of Antwerp. Cuthbert Tunstall was a rising churchman, chancellor to the Archbishop of Canterbury, who in that year of 1515 was made Archdeacon of Chester and in May of the next year, 1516, Master of the Roles. In 1516 he was sent again to the Low Countries and Moore then went with him to Brussels where they were in close companionship with Erasmus. Moore's Utopia was written in Latin and is in two parts of which the second describing the place, the Greek text means Nesquama as he called it sometimes in his letters, or nowhere, was probably written towards the close of 1515, the first part introductory early in 1516. The book was first printed at Lovain late in 1516 under the editorship of Erasmus, Peter Giles, and other of Moore's friends in Flanders. It was then revised by Moore and printed by Frobenius at Basel in November of 1518. It was reprinted at Paris and Vienna but was not printed in England during Moore's lifetime. Its first publication in this country was in the English translation made in Edward VI's reign in 1551 by Ralph Robinson. It was translated with more literary skill by Gilbert Burnett in 1684 soon after he had conducted the defense of his friend Lord William Russell, attended his execution, vindicated his memory and been spitefully deprived by James II of his lectureship at St. Clements. Burnett was drawn to the translation of Utopia by the same sense of unreason in high places that caused Moore to write the book. Burnett's is the translation given in this volume. The name of the book has given an adjective to our language. We call an impracticable scheme Utopian. Yet under the veil of a playful fiction, the talk is intensely earnest and abounds in practical suggestion. It is the work of a scholarly and witty Englishman who attacks in his own way the chief political and social evils of his time. Beginning with fact, Moore tells how he was sent into Flanders with Cuthbert's Tunstall, whom the king's majesty of late to the great rejoicing of all men did prefer to the office of master of the roles, how the commissioners of Charles met them at Bruges and presently returned to Brussels for instructions and how Moore then went to Antwerp where he found a pleasure in the society of Peter Giles which soothed his desire to see again his wife and children from whom he had been four months away. Then fact slides into fiction with the finding of Raphael Hithlode whose name, made of two Greek words, means knowing in trifles. A man who had been with Amerigo Vespucci in the three last of the voyages to the new world lately discovered, at which the account had been first printed in 1507, only nine years before Utopia was written. Designedly fantastic in suggestion of details, Utopia is the work of a scholar who had read Plato's Republic and had his fancy quickened reading Plutarch's account of Spartan life under Lecurgus. Beneath the veil of an ideal communism into which there has been worked some witty extravagance there lies a noble English argument. Sometimes Moore puts the case as of France when he means England. Sometimes there is ironical praise of the good faith of Christian kings saving the book from censure as a political attack on the policy of Henry VIII. Erasmus wrote to a friend in 1517 to send for Moore's Utopia if he had not read it and wished to see the true source of all political evils. And to Moore, Erasmus wrote of his book, a burgo master of Antwerp is so pleased with it that he knows it all by heart. H M End of the introduction. The first recordings are in the public domain. For more information or to volunteer, please visit Libervox.org. Recording by Jenali. Utopia by St. Thomas Moore. Discourses of Raphael Hithlode of the best state of a commonwealth part one. Henry VIII, the unconquered king of England, a prince adorned with all the virtue that become a great monarch. Having some differences of no small consequence with Charles the most serene Prince of Castile sent me into Flanders as his ambassador for treating and composing matters between them. I was colleague and companion to that incomparable man, Cuthbert Tonstall, whom the king with such universal applause lately made master of the roles. But of whom I will say nothing, not because I fear that the testimony of a friend will be suspected, but rather because his learning and virtues are too great for me to do them justice and so well known that they need not my commendations, unless I would, according to the proverb, show the sun with the lantern. Those that were appointed by the prince to treat with us met us at Bruges, according to agreement. They were all worthy men. The Margrave of Bruges was their head and the chief man among them, but he that was esteemed the wisest and that spoke for the rest was George Thamesy, the provost of Castlesey. Both art and nature had concurred to make him eloquent. He was very learned in the law and had a great capacity, so by a long practice and affairs he was very dexterous at unraveling them. After we had several times met without coming to an agreement, they went to Brussels for some days to know the prince's pleasure and since our business would admit it I went to Antwerp. While I was there among many that visited me there was one that was more acceptable to me than any other, Peter Giles, born at Antwerp, who is a man of great honor in his town, though less than he deserves. For I do not know if there be anywhere to be found a more learned and better bred young man, for as he is both a very worthy and a very knowing person, so he is so civil to all men, so particularly kind to his friends and so full of candor and affection that there is not perhaps above one or two anywhere to be found that is in all respects so perfect a friend. He is extraordinarily modest, there is no artifice in him and yet no man has more of a prudent simplicity. His conversation was so pleasant and so innocently cheerful that his company in a great measure lessened any longings to go back to my country and to my wife and children which in absence of four months had quickened very much. One day as I was returning home from Mass at St. Mary's which is the chief church and the most frequented of any in Antwerp I saw him by accident talking with a stranger past the flower of his age. His face was tanned, he had a long beard and his cloak was hanging carelessly about him so that by his looks and habit I concluded he was a seaman. As soon as Peter saw me he came and saluted me and as I was returning his civility he took me aside and pointing to him with who he had been discoursing he said, do you see that man? I was just thinking to bring him to you. I answered, he should have been very welcome on your account and on his own too, replied he if you knew the man for there is none alive that can give so copious an account of unknown nations and countries as he can do which I know you very much desire. Then said I I did not guess amiss for at first sight I took him for a seaman put you are much mistaken said he for he has not sailed as a seaman but as a traveller or rather a philosopher this Raphael who from his family is the name of Hithlode is not ignorant of the Latin tongue but is eminently learned in the Greek having applied himself more particularly to that than to the former because he had given himself much to philosophy in which he knew that the Romans have left us nothing that is valuable except what is to be found in Seneca and Cicero he is a Portuguese by birth and was so desirous of seeing the world that he divided his estate among his brothers ran the same hazard as America's Vesputius or a share in three of his four voyages that are now published only he did not return with him in his last but attained leave of him almost by force that he might be one of those twenty-four who were left at the farthest place at which they touched in their last voyage to New Castile the leaving him thus did not a little gratify one that was more fond of travelling than of returning home to be buried in his own country for he used often to say that the way to heaven was the same from all places and he that had no grave had the heavens still over him yet this disposition of mind had cost him dear if God had not been very gracious to him for after he with five Castilians had travelled over many countries at last by strange good fortune he got to Ceylon and from thence to Calicut where he very happily found some Portuguese ships and beyond all men's expectations returned to his native country when Peter had said this to me I thanked him for his kindness in intending to give me the acquaintance of a man whose conversation he knew would be so acceptable and upon that Raphael and I embraced each other after those civilities were passed which are usual with strangers upon their first meeting we all went to my house and entering into the garden sat down on a green bank and entertained one another in discourse he told us that when Vespudias had sailed away he and his companions that stayed behind in New Castile by degrees insinuated themselves into the affections of the people of the country meaning often with them and treating them gently and at last they not only lived among them without danger but conversed familiarly with them and got so far into the heart of a prince whose name and country I have forgot that he both furnished them plentifully with all things necessary and also with the convenience of travelling both boats when they went by water and wagons when they trained over land he sent with them a very faithful guide who was to introduce and recommend them to such other princes as they had a mind to see and after many days' journey they came to towns and cities and to common wealths that were both happily governed and well peopled under the equator and as far on both sides of it as the sun moves there lay vast deserts that were parched with the perpetual heat of the sun the soil was withered all things looked dismally and all places were either quite uninhabited or abounded with wild beasts and serpents and some few men that were neither less wild nor less cruel than the beasts themselves but as they went farther a new scene opened all things grew milder the air less burning the soil more verdant and even the beasts were less wild and at last there were nations, towns and cities that had not only mutual commerce among themselves and with their neighbors but traded both by sea and land to very remote countries there they found the conveniences of seeing many countries on all hands for no ship when any voyage into which he and his companions were not very welcome the first vessels that they saw were flat bottomed their sails were made of reeds and wicker woven close together only some were of leather but afterwards they found ships made with round keels and canvas sails and in all aspects like our ships and the seaman understood both astronomy and navigation he got wonderfully into their favor by showing them the use of the needle of which till then they were utterly ignorant they sailed before with great caution and only in summertime but now they count all seasons alike trusting wholly to the lodestone in which they are perhaps more secure than safe so that there is reason to fear that this discovery which was thought would prove so much to their advantage may by their imprudence become an occasion to live to them but it were too long to dwell on all that he told us he had observed in every place it would be too great a digression from our present purpose whatever is necessary to be told concerning those wise and prudent institutions which he observed among civilized nations may perhaps be related by us on a more proper occasion we asked him many questions concerning all these things to which he answered very willingly we made no inquiries after monsters nothing is more common for everywhere one may hear of ravenous dogs and wolves and cruel miniatures but it is not so easy to find states that are well and wisely governed as he told us of many things that were amiss in those new discovered countries so he reckoned up not a few things from which patterns might be taken for correcting the errors of these nations among whom we live of which an account may be given as I have already promised at some other time I intend only to relate those particulars that he told us of the manners and laws of the utopians but I will begin with the occasion that led us to speak of that commonwealth after Raphael had discourse with great judgment on the many errors that were both among us and these nations had treated of the wise institutions both here and there and had spoken as distinctly of the customs and government of every nation through which he had passed as if he had spent his whole life in it being stricken with admiration said I wonder Raphael how it comes that you enter into no king's service for I am sure there are none to whom you would not be very acceptable for your learning and knowledge both of men and things is such that you would not only entertain them very pleasantly but be of great use to them by the examples you could set before them and the advices you could give them and by this means you would both serve your own interest and be of great use to all your friends as for my friends answered he I need not be much concerned having already done for them all that was incumbent on me for when I was not only in good health but fresh and young I distributed that among my kindred and friends which other people do not part with till they are old and sick when they then unwillingly give that which they can enjoy no longer themselves I think my friends ought to rest contented with this and not to expect that for their sakes I should enslave myself to any king soft and fair said Peter I do not mean that you should be a slave to any king but only that you should assist them and be useful to them the change of the word said he does not alter the matter but term it as you will replied Peter I do not see any other way in which you can be so useful both in private to your friends and to the public and by which you can make your own condition happier happier answered Raphael is that to be compassed in a way so abhorrent to my genius now I live as I will to which I believe few courtiers can pretend and there are so many that court the favor of great men that there will be no great loss if they are not troubled either with me or with others of my temper upon this said I I perceive Raphael that you neither desire wealth nor greatness and indeed I value and admire such a man much more than I do any of the great men in the world I think you would do what would well become so generous and philosophical a soul as yours is if you would apply your time and thoughts to public affairs even though you may happen to find it a little uneasy to yourself and this you can never do with so much advantage as by being taken into the council of some great prince and putting him on noble and worthy actions which I know you would do if you were in such a post for the springs both of good and evil flow from the prince over a whole nation as from a lasting fountain so much learning as you have even without practice and affairs or so great a practice as you have had without any other learning would render you a very fit counselor to any king whatsoever you are doubly mistaken said he Mr. Moore both in your opinion of me and in the judgment you make of things for as I have not that capacity that you fancy I have so if I had it the public would not be one jot the better when I had sacrificed my quiet to it for most princes apply themselves more to affairs of war than to the useful arts of peace and in these I neither have any knowledge nor do I much desire it they are generally more set on acquiring new kingdoms right or wrong than on governing well those they possess and among the ministers of princes there are none that are not so wise as to need no assistance or at least that do not think themselves so wise that they imagine they need none and if they court any it is only those for whom prince has much personal favor whom by their fawning and flatteries they endeavor to fix to their own interests and indeed nature has so made us that we all love to be flattered and to please ourselves with our own notions the old crow loves his young and the a percubs now if in such a court made up of persons who envy all others and only admire themselves a person should but propose anything that he had either read in history or observed in his travels the rest would think that the nation of their wisdom would sink and that their interest would be much depressed if they could not run it down and if all other things failed then they would fly to this that such or such things please our ancestors and it were well for us if we could but match them they would set up their rest on such an answer as a sufficient computation of all that could be said as if it were a great misfortune that any should be found wiser than his ancestors but though they willingly let go all the good things that were among those of former ages yet if better things are proposed they cover themselves obstinately with this excuse of reverence to past times I have met with these proud morose and absurd judgments of things in many places particularly once in England were you ever there said I yes I was answered he and stayed some months there not long after the rebellion in the west was suppressed with a great slaughter of the poor people that were engaged in it I was then much obliged to that reverent prelate John Morton Archbishop of Canterbury Cardinal and Chancellor of England a man said he Peter for Mr. Moore knows well what he was that was not less venerable for his wisdom and virtues than for the high character he bore he was of a middle stature not broken with age his looks begot reverence rather than fear his conversation was easy but serious in grave to try the force of those that came as suitors to him upon business by speaking sharply though decently to them and by that he discovered their spirit and presence of mind with which he was much delighted when it did not grow up to impudence as bearing a great resemblance to his own temper and he looked on such persons as the fittest men for affairs he spoke both gracefully and waitily he was eminently skilled in the law had a vast understanding and a prodigious memory and those excellent talents with which nature had furnished him were improved by study and experience when I was in England the king depended much on his councils and the government seemed to be chiefly supported by him for from his youth he had been all along practiced in affairs and having passed through many traverses of fortune he had with great cost acquired a vast stock of wisdom which is not soon lost when it is purchased so dear one day when I was dining with him there happened to be a table one of the English lawyers who took occasion to run out in a high commendation of the severe execution of justice upon thieves who as he said were then hanged so fast that there were sometimes twenty on one give it and upon that he said he could not wonder enough how it came to pass that since so few escaped there were yet so many thieves left who were still robbing in all places upon this I who took the boldness to speak freely before the cardinal said there was no reason to wonder at the matter since this way of punishing these was neither just in itself nor good for the public for as the severity was too great so the remedy was not effectual simple theft not being so great a crime that it ought to cost a man his life no punishment how severe so ever being able to restrain those from robbing who can find out no other way of livelihood in this said I not only you in England but a great part of the world imitate some ill masters that are ready to chastise their scholars and to teach them there are dreadful punishments enacted against thieves but it were much better to make such good provisions by which every man might be put in a method how to live and so be preserved from the fatal necessity of stealing and of dying for it there has been care enough taken for that said he there are many handicrafts and there is husbandry by which they may make a shift to live unless they have a greater mind to follow ill courses that will not serve your turn said I for many lose their limbs in civil or foreign wars as lately in the Cornish rebellion and some time ago in your wars with France who being thus mutilated in the service of their king and country can no more follow their old trades and are too old to learn new ones but since wars are only accidental things and have intervals let us consider those things that fall out every day there is a great number of noblemen among you that are themselves as idle as drones that subsist on other men's labor on the labor of their tenants whom to raise their revenues they pair to the quick this indeed is the only insistence of their frugality for in all other things they are prodigal even to the beggaring of themselves but besides this they carry about with them a great number of idle fellows who never learned any art by which they may gain their living and these as soon as either their lord dies or they themselves fall sick are turned out of doors for your lords are ready or to feed idle people than to take care of the sick and often the air is not able to keep together so great a family as his predecessor did now when the stomachs of those that are thus turned out of doors grow keen they rob no less keenly and what else can they do for when by wondering about they have worn out both their health and their clothes and are tattered and look ghastly men of quality will not entertain them and poor men dare not do it knowing that one who has been bred up in idleness and pleasure and who was used to walk about with his sword and buckler despising all the neighborhood with an insolent scorn as far below him is not fit for the spade and mattock nor will he serve a poor man for so small a hire and in so low a diet as he can afford to give him to this he answered this sort of men ought to be particularly cherished for in them consists the force of the armies for which we have occasion since their birth inspires them with a nobler sense of honor than is to be found among tradesmen or plowmen you may as well say replied I that you must cherish thieves on account of wars for you will never want the one as long as you have the other and as robbers prove sometimes gallant soldiers so soldiers often prove brave robbers so near an alliance there is between those two sorts of life but this bad custom so common among you of keeping many peace is not peculiar to this nation and France there is yet a more pustiferous sort of people for the whole country is full of soldiers still kept up in time of peace if such a state of nation can be called a piece and these are kept in pay upon the same account that you plead for those idle retainers about noblemen this being a maxim of those pretended statesmen that it is necessary for the public safety to have a good body of veteran soldiers ever in readiness they think men are not to be depended on and they sometimes seek occasions for making war that they may train up their soldiers in the art of cutting throats or as Salist observed for keeping their hands in use that they may not grow dull by too long an intermission but France has learned to its cost how dangerous it is to feed such beasts the fate of the Romans Carthaginians and Syrians and many other nations and cities which were both overturned and quite ruined by those standing armies and others wiser and the folly of this maxim of the French appears plainly even from this that their trained soldiers often find your raw men proved too hard for them of which I will not say much lest you may think I flatter the English every day's experience shows that the mechanics in the town or the clowns in the country are not afraid of fighting with those idle gentlemen if they are not disabled by some misfortune in their body or dispirited by extreme want or fear that those well shaped and strong men for it is only such that noblemen love to keep about them till they spoil them who now grow feeble with ease and are softened with their effeminate manner of life would be less fit for action if they were well bred and well employed and it seems very unreasonable that for the prospect of a war which you need never have but when you please you should maintain so many idle men as will always disturb you in time of peace which is ever to be more considered but I do not think that this necessity of stealing arises only from hence there is another cause of it more peculiar to England what is that said the cardinal the increase of pasture said I by which your sheep which are naturally mild and easily kept in order may be said now to devour men and unpeople not only villages but towns for wherever it is found that the sheep of any soil yield a softer and richer wall than ordinary and gentry and even those unholy men the Dobos not contented with the old rents which their farms yielded nor thinking it enough that they living at their ease do no good to the public resolved to do it hurt instead of good they stopped the course of agriculture destroying houses and towns reserving only the churches and enclosed grounds that they may lodge their sheep in them as if forests and parks had swallowed up too little of the land those worthy countrymen inhabited places into solitudes for when an insatiable wretch who is a plague to his country resolves to enclose many thousand acres of ground the owners as well as tenants are turned out of their possessions by trick or by main force or being weird out by ill usage they are forced to sell them by which means those miserable people both men and women married and unmarried old and young with their poor but numerous families since country business requires many hands are all forced to change their seats not knowing whether to go and they must sell almost for nothing their household stuff which could not bring them much money even though they might say for a buyer when that little money is at an end for it will soon be spent what is left for them to do but either to steal and so to be hanged God knows how justly or to go about and beg and if they do this then they are put in prison as idle vagabonds while they would willingly work but can find fire them for there is no more occasion for country labor to which they have been bred when there is no arable ground left one shepherd can look after a flock which will stock an extent of ground that would require many hands if it were to be plowed and reaped this likewise in many places raises the price of corn the price of wool is also so risen that the poor people who were want to make cloth are no more able to buy it and this likewise makes many of them idle for the price of pasture God has punished the avarice of the owners by a rot among the sheep which has destroyed vast numbers of them to us it might have seemed more than just had it fell on the owners themselves but suppose the sheep should increase ever so much their price is not likely to fall since though they cannot be called a monopoly because they are not engrossed by one person yet they are in so few hands and these are so rich that as they are not pressed to sell them sooner than so they never do it till they have raised the price as high as possible and on the same account it is that the other kinds of cattle are so dear because many villages being pulled down and all country labor being neglected there are none who make it their business to breed them the rich do not breed cattle as they do sheep but buy them lean and at low prices and after they have fattened them on their grounds sell them again at high rates and I do not think that all the inconveniences this will produce are yet for as they sell the cattle dear so if they are consumed faster than the breeding countries from which they are brought can afford them then the stock must decrease and this must needs end in great scarcity and by these means this your island which seemed as to this particular the happiest in the world will suffer much by the cursed avarice of a few persons besides this the rising of corn makes all people lessen their families as much as they can and what can those who are dismissed by do but either beg or rob and to this last a man of a great mind is much sooner drawn than to the former luxury likewise breaks in a pace upon you to set forward your poverty and misery there is an excessive vanity in apparel and great cost in diet and that not only in noblemen's families but even among tradesmen among the farmers themselves and among all ranks of persons you have also many infamous houses and besides those that are known the taverns and retail houses are no better add to these dice, cards, tables football, tennis and coits in which money runs fast away and those that are initiated into them must in the conclusion be take themselves to robbing for a supply banish these plagues and give orders that those who have dispeepled so much soil may either rebuild the villages they have pulled down or let out their grounds to such as will do it restrain those engrossings of the rich that are as bad almost as monopolies leave fewer occasions to idleness let agriculture be set up again and the manufacture of the wool be regulated that so there may be work found for those companies of idle people whom want forces to be thieves or who now being idle vagabonds or useless servants will certainly grow thieves at last if you do not find a remedy to these evils it is a vain thing to boast of your severity and punishing theft which though it may have the appearance of justice is neither just nor convenient for if you suffer your people to be ill-educated and their manners to be corrupted from their infancy and then punish them for those crimes to which their first education disposed them what else is to be concluded from this but that you first make thieves and then punish them End of Discourses of Raphael Hithlode of the best state of a Commonwealth Part 1 Discourses of Raphael Hithlode of the best state of a Commonwealth Part 2 While I was talking thus the counselor who was present had prepared an answer and had resolved to resume all I had said according to the formality of a debate in which things are generally repeated more faithfully than they are answered as if the chief trial to be made were of men's memories You have talked prettily for a stranger, he said having heard of many things among us which you have not been able to consider well but I will make the whole matter plain to you and will first repeat in order all that you have said then I will show how much your ignorance of our affairs has misled you and will in the last place answer all your arguments and that I may begin where I promise there were four things hold your peace said the cardinal this will take up too much time therefore we will at present ease you of the trouble of answering and reserve it to our next meeting which shall be tomorrow if Raphael's affairs and yours can admit of it but Raphael said he to me I would gladly know upon what reason it is that you think theft ought not to be punished by death would you give way to it that will be more useful to the public for since death does not restrain theft if men thought their lives would be safe what fear or force could restrain ill men on the contrary they would look on the mitigation of the punishment as an invitation to commit more crimes I answered it seems to me a very unjust thing to take away a man's life for a little money for nothing in the world can be of equal value with a man's life and if it be said that it is not for the money that one suffers by striking the law I must say extreme justice is an extreme injury for we ought not to approve of those terrible laws that make the smallest defences capital nor of that opinion of the Stoics that makes all crimes equal as if there were no difference to be made between the killing of a man and the taking his purse between which if we examine things impartially there is no likeness nor proportion God has commanded us not to kill and shall we kill so easily for a little money one shall say that by the law we are only forbid to kill any except when the laws of the land allow of it upon the same grounds laws may be made in some cases to allow of adultery and perjury for God having taken from us the right of disposing either of our own or of other people's lives if it is pretended that the mutual consent of men in making laws can authorize manslaughter in cases in which God has given us no example that it frees people from the obligation and so makes murder a lawful action what is this but to give a preference to human laws before the divine and if this is once admitted by the same rule men may in all other things put what restrictions they please upon the laws of God if by the mosaic law though it was rough and severe as being a yoke laid on an obstinate and servile nation men were only fined and not put to death for theft we cannot imagine that in this new law of mercy in which God treats us the tenderness of a father he has given us a greater license to cruelty than he did to the Jews upon these reasons it is that I think putting thieves to death is not lawful and it is plain and obvious that it is absurd and of ill consequence to the commonwealth that a thief and a murderer should be equally punished for if a robber sees that his danger is the same if he is convicted of theft as if he were guilty of murder this will naturally incite him to kill the person whom otherwise he would only have robbed since if the punishment is the same there is more security and less danger of discovery when he that can best make it is put out of the way so that terrifying thieves too much provokes them to cruelty but as to the question what more convenient way of punishment can be found I think it much easier to find out that than to invent anything that is worse why should we doubt but the way that was so long in use among the old Romans who understood so well the arts of government was very proper for their punishment they condemned such as they found guilty of great crimes to work their whole lives in quarries or to dig in mines with chains about them but the method that I liked best was that which I observed in my travels in Persia among the polylerots who are a considerable and well-governed people they pay a yearly tribute to the king of Persia but in all other respects they are a free nation and governed by their own laws they lie far from the sea and are environed with hills being contented with the productions of their own country which is very fruitful they have little commerce with any other nation and as they, according to the genius of their country, have no inclination to enlarge their borders so their mountains and the pension they pay to the Persian secure them from all invasions thus they have no wars among them they live rather conveniently than with splendor and may be rather called a happy nation than either eminent or famous for I do not think that they are known to any but their next neighbors those that are found guilty of theft among them are bound to make restitution to the owner and not as it is in other places to the prince for they reckon that the prince has no more right to the stolen goods than the thief but if that which was stolen is no more unbeing then the goods of the thieves are estimated and restitution being made out of them the remainder is given to their wives and children and they themselves are condemned to serve in the public works but are neither imprisoned nor chained unless there happens to be some extraordinary circumstance in their crimes they go about loose and free working for the public if they are idle or backward to work they are whipped but if they work hard they are well used and treated without any mark of reproach only the lists of them are called always at night and then they are shut up they suffer no other uneasiness but this of constant labor for as they work for the public so they are well entertained out of the public stock which is done differently in different places in some places whatever is bestowed on them is raised by a charitable contribution and though this way may seem uncertain yet so merciful are the inclinations of that people that they are plentifully supplied by it but in other places public revenues are set aside for them or there is a constant tax or poll money raised for their maintenance in some places they are set to no public work but every private man that has occasion to hire workmen goes to the marketplaces and gives them out of the public a little lower than he would do a free man if they go lazily about their task he may quicken them with the whip but this means there is always some piece of work or other to be done by them and besides their livelihood they earn somewhat still to the public they all wear a peculiar habit of one certain color and their hair is cropped a little above their ears and a piece of one of their ears is cut off their friends are allowed to give them either meat drink or clothes but it is death both to the giver and the taker if they give them money nor is it less penal for any free man to take money from them upon any account whatsoever and it is also death for any of these slaves so they are called to handle arms those of every division of the country are distinguished by a peculiar mark which it is capital for them to lay aside to go out of their bounds or to talk with a slave of another jurisdiction and the very attempt of an escape is no less penal than an escape itself it is death for any other slave to be accessory to it and if a free man engages in it he is condemned to slavery those that discover it are rewarded if free men and money and if slaves with liberty together with a pardon for being accessory to it that so they might find their account rather in repenting of their engaging in such a design than in persisting in it these are their laws and rules in relation to robbery and it is obvious that they are as advantageous as they are mild and gentle since vice is not only destroyed and men preserved but they are treated in such a manner as to make them see the necessity of being honest and of employing the rest of their lives in repairing the injuries they had formerly done to society nor is there any hazard of their falling back to their old customs and so little do travelers apprehend mischief from them that they generally make use of them for guides from one jurisdiction to another for there is nothing left or be the better for it since as they are disarmed so the very having of money is a sufficient conviction and as they are certainly punished if discovered so they cannot hope to escape for their habit being in all the parts of it different from what is commonly worn they cannot fly away unless they would go naked and even then their cropped ear would betray them the only danger to be feared from them is their conspiring against the government but those of one division in neighborhood can do nothing to any purpose unless their conspiracy were laid amongst all the slaves of the several jurisdictions which cannot be done since they cannot meet or talk together nor will any venture on a design where the concealment would be so dangerous and the discovery so profitable none are quite hopeless of recovering their freedom since by their obedience and patience and by giving good grounds to believe that they will change their manner of life for the future they may expect to at last obtain their liberty and some are every year given of them when I had related all this I added that I did not see why such a method might not be followed with more advantage than could ever be expected from that severe justice which the counselor magnified so much to this he answered that it could never take place in England without endangering the whole nation as he said this he shook his head made some grimaces and held his peace while all the company seemed of his opinion except the cardinal who said that it was not easy to form a judgment success since it was a method that never yet had been tried but if said he when sentence of death were passed upon a thief the prince would reprieve him for a while and make the experiment upon him denying him the privilege of a sanctuary and then if it had a good effect upon him it might take place and if it did not succeed the worst would be to execute the sentence on the condemned persons at last and I do not see added he while it would be either unjust inconvenient or at all dangerous to admit of such a delay in my opinion the vagabonds ought to be treated in the same manner against whom though we have made many laws yet we have not been able to gain our ends when the cardinal had done they all commended the motion though they had despised it when it came from me but more particularly commended what related to the vagabonds because it was his own observation I do not know whether it would be worthwhile to tell what followed for it was very ridiculous but I shall venture at it for as it is not foreign to this matter so some good use may be made of it there was a gesture standing by that counterfeited the fool so naturally that he seemed to really be one the jests which he offered were so cold and dull that we laughed more at him than at them yet sometimes he said as it were by chance things that were not unpleasant so as to justify the old proverb that he who throws the dice often will sometimes have a lucky hit when one of the company had said that I had taken care of the thieves and the cardinal had taken care of the vagabonds so that there remained nothing but that some public provision might be made for the poor whom sickness or old age had disabled from labour leave that to me said the fool and I shall take care of them for there is no sort of people who cite I abhor more having been so often vexed with them and their sad complaints but as dolefully so ever as they have told their tale they could never prevail so far as to draw one penny from me for either I had no mind to give them anything or when I had a mind to do it I had nothing to give them and they now know me so well that they will not lose their labor but let me pass without giving me any trouble because they hope for nothing no more and faith than if I were a priest but I would have a law made for sending all these beggars to monasteries the men to the Benedictines to be made lay brothers and the women to be nuns the cardinal smiled and approved of it in jest but the rest liked it in earnest there was a divine present who though he was a grave morose man yet he was so pleased with this reflection that was made on the priests and the monks that he began to play with the fool and said to him this will not deliver you from all beggars except you take care of us friars that is done already answered the fool for the cardinal has provided for you by what he proposed for restraining vagabonds and setting them to work for I know no vagabonds like you this was well entertained by the whole company cardinal perceived that he was not ill pleased at it only the friar himself was vexed as maybe easily imagined and fell into such a passion that he could not forbear railing at the fool and calling him naïve slanderer backbiter and son of perdition and then cited some dreadful threatenings out of the scriptures against him now the gesture thought he was in his element and laid about him freely good friar he said be not angry for it is written in patience possess your soul the friar answered for I shall give you his own words I am not angry you hangman at least I do not sin in it for the psalmist says be angry and sin not upon this the cardinal admonished him gently and wished him to govern his passions know my lord he said I speak not but from a good zeal which I ought to have for holy men have had a good zeal as it is said the zeal of thy house has eaten me up and we sing in our church that those of us who are in the house of God we sing in our church as he went up to the house of God felt the effects of his zeal which that mocker that rogue that scoundrel will perhaps feel you do this perhaps with a good intention said the cardinal but in my opinion it were wiser in you and perhaps better for you not to engage in so ridiculous a contest with the fool know my lord answered he that were not wisely done I now do and show him the ditch into which he will fall if he is not aware of it for if the many mockers of Elisha who was but one bald man felt the effect of his zeal what will become of the mocker of so many friars among whom there are so many bald men we have likewise a bowl by which all that Jiris are excommunicated when the cardinal saw that there was no end of this matter he made a signal to the fool to withdraw turned the discourse in other way and soon after rose from the table and dismissing us went to hear causes thus Mr. Moore I have run out into a tedious story of the length of which I had been ashamed if as you earnestly beg did of me I had not observed you to harken to it as if you had no mind to lose any part of it I might have contracted it but I resolved to give it to you at large that you might observe how those that despise what I had proposed no sooner perceived that the cardinal did not dislike it but presently approved of it fun so on him and battered him to such a degree that they in good earnest applauded those things that he only liked in jest and from hence you may gather how little courtiers would value either me or my councils to this I answered you have done me a great kindness in this relation for as everything has been related by you both wisely and pleasantly so you have made me imagine that I was in my own country and grown young again by recalling that good cardinal to my thoughts in whose family I was bred from my childhood and though you are upon other accounts very dear to me yet you are the dearer because you honor his memory so much but after all this I cannot change my opinion for I still think that if you could overcome that a version which you have to the courts of princes you might by the advice which it is in your power to give do a great deal of good to mankind and this is the chief design that every good man ought to propose to himself in living for your friend Plato thinks that nations will be happy when either philosophers become kings or kings or philosophers it is no wonder if we are so far from that happiness while philosophers will not think at their duty to assist kings with their councils they are not so base minded said he but that they would willingly do it many of them have already done it by their books if those that are empowered would but harken to their good advice but Plato judged right that except kings themselves become philosophers they who from their childhood are corrupted with false notions would never fall in entirely with the power of philosophers and this he himself found to be true in the person of Dionysus do you not think that if I were about any king proposing good laws to him and endeavoring to root out all the cursed seeds of evil that I found in him I should either be turned out of his court or at least be laughed at for my pains for instance what could I signify if I were about the king of France and were called into his cabinet council where several wise men in his hearing were proposing many expedience as by what arts and practices Milan may be kept at Naples that has so often slipped out of their hands recovered how the Venetians and after them the rest of Italy may be subdued and then how Flanders Brabant and all Burgundy and some other kingdoms which he has swallowed already in his designs may be added to his empire one proposes a league with the Venetians to be kept as long as he finds his account in it and that he ought to communicate councils with them and give them some share of the spoil till his success makes him need or fear them less and then it will be easily taken out of their hands another proposes the hiring the Germans and the securing the Swissers by pensions another proposes the gaining the emperor by money which is omnipotent with him another proposes a piece with the king of Aragon and in order to cement it the yielding up the king of Nevers pretensions and other things that the Prince of Castile is to be wrought on by the hope of an alliance and that some of his ministers are to be gained to the French faction by pension the hardest point of all is what to do with England a treaty of peace is to be set on foot and if their alliance is not to be depended on yet it is to be made as firm as possible and they are to be called friends but suspected as enemies therefore the Scots are to be kept in readiness and to be let loose upon England on every occasion and some banished noblemen is to be supported under hand for by the league it cannot be easily who has a pretension to the crown by which means that suspected Prince may be kept in awe now when things are in so great fermentation and so many gallant men are joining councils how to carry on the war if so mean a man as I should stand up and wish them to change all their councils to let Italy alone and stay at home since the kingdom of France was indeed greater than could be well governed by one man that therefore he ought not to think of adding others to it and post to them the resolutions of the accordions a people that lie on the southeast of utopia who long ago engaged in war in order to add to the dominions of their Prince and other kingdom to which he had some pretensions by an ancient alliance this they conquered but found that the trouble of keeping it was equal to that by which it was gained that the conquered people were always either in rebellion or exposed to foreign invasions while they were obliged to be incessantly at war either for or against them and currently could never disband their army that in the meantime they were oppressed with taxes their money went out of the kingdom their blood was spilt for the glory of their king without procuring the least advantage to the people who received not the smallest benefit from it even in time of peace and that their manners being corrupted by a long war robbery and murders everywhere abounded and their laws fell into contempt while their king distracted with the care of two kingdoms was the less able to apply his mind to the kingdom when they saw this and that there would be no end to these evils they by joint councils made a humble address to their king desiring him to choose which of the two kingdoms he had the greatest mind to keep since he could not hold both for they were too great a people to be governed by a divided king since no man would willingly have a groom that should be in common between him and another upon which the good prince was forced to quit his new kingdom to one of his friends who was not long after attempted with his old one to this I would add that after all those warlike attempts the vast confusions and the consumption both of treasure and of people that must follow them perhaps upon some misfortune they might be forced to throw up all at last therefore it seemed much more eligible that the king should improve his ancient kingdom all he could and make it flourish as much as possible that he should love his people and be beloved of them that he should live among them govern them gently and let on their kingdoms alone since that which had fallen to his share was big enough if not too big for him pray how do you think would such a speech as this be heard I confess said I I think not very well but what said he if I should sort with another kind of ministers whose chief contrivances and consultations were by what art the princess treasures might be increased where one proposes raising the value of species when the king's debts are large and lowering it when his revenues to come in that so he might both pay much with a little and in a little receive a great deal another proposes a pretense of a war that money might be raised in order to carry it on and that such a piece be concluded as soon as that was done and this was such appearances of religion as might work on the people and make them imputed to the piety of their prince and to his tenderness for the lives of his subjects a third offers some old musty laws that have been antiquated by long disuse and which as they had been forgotten by all the subjects so they had also been broken by them and proposes the levying the penalties of these laws that as it would bring in a vast treasure so there might be a very good pretense for it since it would look like the executing a law and the doing of justice a fourth proposes the prohibiting of many things under severe penalties especially as such were against the interest of the people and then the dispensing with these prohibitions upon great compositions to those who might find their advantage in breaking them this would serve two ends both of them acceptable to many for as those whose avarice led them to transgress would be severely fined so the selling licenses dear would look as if a prince were tender to his people and would not easily or at low rates dispense with anything that might be against the public good another proposes that the judges must be made sure that they may declare themselves always in favor of the prerogative that they must be often sent for a court that the king may hear them argue those points in which he is concerned since how unjust so ever any of his pretensions may be yet still someone or other of them either out of contradiction to others or the pride of singularity or to make their court would find out some pretense or other to give the king a fair color to carry the point for if the judges but differ in opinion the clearest thing in the world is made by that means disputable and truth being once brought in question the king may then take advantage to expound the law for his own profit while the judges that stand out will be brought over either through fear or modesty and they being thus gained all of them may be sent to the bench to give sentence boldly as the king would have it for fair pretenses will never be wanting when sentences to be given in the prince's favor it will either be said that equity lies of his side or some words in the law will be found sounding that way or some forced sense will be put on them and when all other things fail the king's undoubted prerogative will be pretended as that which is above all law and to which a religious judge ought to have a special regard thus all consent to that maximum of crisis that a prince cannot have treasure enough since he must maintain his armies out of it that a king even though he would can do nothing unjustly that all property is in him not accepting the very persons of his subjects and that no man has any other property but that which the king out of his goodness thinks fit to leave him and they think it is the prince's interest that there be as little of this left as may be as if it were his advantage that his people should have neither riches nor liberty since these things make them less easy and willing to submit to a cruel and unjust government whereas necessity and poverty blunts them makes them patient beats them down and breaks that height of spirit that might otherwise dispose them to rebel now what if after all these propositions were made I should rise up and assert that such councils were both unbecoming a king and mischievous to him and that not only his honor but his safety consisted more in his people's wealth than in his own if I should show that they choose a king for their own sake and not for his that by his care and endeavors they may be both easy and safe and that therefore a prince ought to take more care of his people's happiness than of his own as a shepherd is to take more care of his flock than of himself it is also certain that they are much mistaken that think the poverty of a nation is a mean of the public safety who quarrel more than beggars who does more earnestly long for a change than he that is uneasy in his present circumstances and who run to create confusions with so desperate a boldness as those who having nothing to lose hope to gain by them if the king should fall under such content or envy that he could not keep his subjects and their duty but by oppression and ill usage and by rendering them poor and miserable it were certainly better for him to quit his kingdom than to retain it by such methods as make him while he keeps the name of authority lose the majesty due to it nor is it so becoming the dignity of a king to reign over beggars as over rich and happy subjects and therefore Fabricius a man of a noble and exalted temper said he would rather govern rich men than be rich himself since for one man to abound in wealth and pleasure when all about him are mourning and groaning is to be a killer and not a king he is an unskillful physician that cannot cure one disease without casting his patient into another so he that can find no other way for correcting the errors of his people but by taking from them the conveniences of life shows that he knows not what it is to govern a free nation he himself I'd rather to shake off his sloth or to lay down his pride for the contempt or hatred that his people have for him takes its rise from the vices in himself let him live upon what belongs to him without wronging others and accommodate his expenses to his revenue let him punish crimes and by his wise conduct let him endeavor to prevent them rather than be severe when he has suffered them to be too common let him not rashly revive laws that are abrogated by disuse especially if they have been long forgotten and never wanted and let him never take any penalty for the breach of them to which a judge would not give way in a private man to look on him as a crafty and unjust person for pretending to it to these things I would add that law among the Macarians a people that lived not far from Utopia by which their king on the day on which he began to reign is tied by an oath confirmed by solemn sacrifices never to have at once above a thousand pounds of gold in his treasures or so much silver as is equal to that in value this law they tell us was made by an excellent king who had more regard to the riches of his country than to his own wealth and therefore provided against the heaping up of so much treasures might impoverish the people he thought that moderate some might be sufficient for any accident if either the king had occasion for it against the rebels or the kingdom against the invasion of an enemy but that it was not enough to encourage a prince to invade other men's rights a circumstance that was the chief cause of his making that law he also thought that it was a good provision for the nation of money so necessary for the course of commerce and exchange and when a king must distribute all those extraordinary accessions that increase treasure beyond the do pitch it makes him less disposed to oppress his subjects such a king is this will be the terror of ill men and will be beloved by all the good end of discourses of Raphael Hithloday of the best state of a commonwealth part two discourses of Raphael Hithloday of the best state of a commonwealth part three from utopia this is a LibriVox recording all LibriVox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit LibriVox.org recording by generally utopia by st. Thomas more discourses of Raphael Hithloday of the best state of a commonwealth part three if I say I should talk of these or such like things to men that had taken their bias another way how death they would be to all I could say no doubt very death answered I and no wonder for one is never to offer propositions or advice that we are certain will not be entertained discourses so much out of the road could not avail anything nor have any effect on men whose minds were prepossessed with different sentiments this philosophical way of speculation is not unpleasant among friends in a free conversation but there is no room for it in the courts of princes where great affairs are carried on by authority that is what I was saying replied he that there is no room for philosophy in the courts of princes yes there is said I but not for this speculative philosophy that makes everything to be alike fitting at all times but there is another philosophy that is more pliable that knows its proper scene accommodates itself to it and teaches a man with propriety and decency to act that part which has fallen to his share if when one of Plotis's comedies is on stage and a company of servants are acting their parts you should come out in the garb of a philosopher and repeat out of Octavia a discourse of Seneca's to Nero would it not be better for you to say nothing than by mixing things of such different natures to make an impertinent tragic comedy for you spoiling corrupt the play that is in hand when you mix with it things of an opposite nature even though they are much better therefore go through with the play that is acting the best you can it because another that is pleasanter comes into your thoughts it is even so in a commonwealth and in the councils of princes if ill opinions cannot be quite rooted out and you cannot cure some received vice according to your wishes you must not therefore abandon the commonwealth for the same reasons as you should not forsake the ship in a storm because you cannot command the winds you are not obliged to assault people with discourses that are out of their road when you see that their received notions must prevent your making of oppression upon them you ought rather to cast about and to manage things with all the dexterity in your power so that if you are not able to make them go well they may be as little ill as possible for except all men were good everything cannot be right and that is a blessing that I do not at present hope to see according to your argument answered he all that I could be able to do would be to preserve myself from being mad while I endeavor to cure the madness of others for if I speak with I must repeat what I have said to you and as for lying whether philosopher can do it or not I cannot tell I'm sure I cannot do it but though these discourses may be uneasy and ungrateful to them I do not see why they should seem foolish or extravagant indeed if I should either propose such things as Plato has contrived in his commonwealth or as utopians practice in theirs though they might seem better as certainly they are yet they are so different from our argument which is founded on property there being no such thing among them that I could not expect that it would have any effect on them but such discourses as mine which only call past evils to mind and give warning of what may follow leave nothing in them that is so absurd that they may not be used at any time for they can only be unpleasant to those who are resolved to run headlong the contrary way and if we must let alone everything is absurd or extravagant which by reason of the money may seem uncouth we must even among Christians give over pressing the greatest part of those things that Christ hath taught us though he has commanded us not to conceal them but to proclaim on the house tops that which he taught in secret the greatest parts of his concepts are more opposite to the lives of the men of this age than any part of my discourse has been but the preachers seem to have learned that craft to which you advise me for they observing that the world would not understand what this verse has given have fitted his doctrine as if it had been a letting rule to their lives that so by some way or other they might agree with one another I see no other effect of this compliance except it be that men become more secure in their wickedness by it and this is all the success that I can have in a court for I must always differ from the rest and then I shall signify nothing or if I agree with them I shall then only help forward their madness or by the bending and handling things so dexterously that if they go not well they may go as little ill as may be for in courts they will not bear with a man's holding his peace or conniving at what others do a man must bare facially approve of the worst councils and consent to the blackest designs so that he would pass for a spy or possibly for a traitor that did not but coldly approve of such wicked practices and therefore when a man is engaged in such a society he will be so far from being able to mend matters by his casting about as you call it that he will find no occasions of doing any good the ill company will sooner corrupt him than be the better for him or if notwithstanding all their ill company he still remains steady and innocent yet their follies and navery will be imputed to him and by mixing councils with them he must bear his share of all the blame that belongs wholly to others it was no ill similarly by which Plato set forth the willingness of a philosopher's meddling with government if a man says he were to see a great company run out every day into the rain and take delight in being wet if he knew that it would be to no purpose for him to go and persuade them to return to their houses in order to avoid the storm and that all that could be expected by his going to speak to them would be that he himself should be as wet as they it would be best for him to keep within doors and since he had not influenced enough to correct other of himself though to speak plainly my real sentiments I must freely own that as long as there is any property and while money is the standard of all other things I cannot think that a nation can be governed either justly or happily not justly because the best things will fall to the share of the worst men nor happily because all things will be divided among a few and even these are not in all respects happy the rest being left to be absolutely miserable therefore when I reflect on the wise and good constitution of the utopians among whom all things are so well governed and with so few laws where virtue have its new reward and yet there is such an equality that every man lives in plenty when I compare with them so many other nations that are still making new laws and yet can never bring their constitution to a right regulation where notwithstanding everyone has his property yet all the laws that they can invent have not the power either to obtain or preserve it even to enable men certainly to distinguish what is their own from what is in others a which the many lawsuits that every day break out and are eternally depending give to plane a demonstration when I say I balance all these things in my thoughts I grow more favorable to play though and do not wonder that he resolved not to make any laws for such as would not submit to a community of all things for so wise a man could not but foresee that the setting all upon a level was the only way to make a nation happy which cannot be obtained so long as there is property for when every man draws to himself all that he can compass by one title or another it must needs follow that how plentiful so ever a nation may be yet a few dividing the wealth of it among themselves the rest must fall into indigence so that there will be two sorts of people among them who deserve that their fortunes should be interchanged the former useless but wicked and ravenous and the latter who by their constant industry serve the public more than themselves sincere modest men from once I am persuaded that till property is taken away there can be no equitable or just distribution of things nor can the world be happily governed for as long as that is maintained the greatest in the far best part of mankind will be still oppressed with a load of cares and anxieties I confess without taking it quite away those pressures that lie on a great part of mankind may be made lighter but they can never be quite removed for a flaws were made to determine how great an extent in soil and at how much money every man must stop to limit the prince that he might not grow too great and to restrain the people that they might not become too insolent and that none might factitiously aspire to public employments which ought neither to be sold nor made burdensome by a great expense since otherwise those that serve in them would be tempted to reimburse themselves by cheats and violence and it would become necessary to find out rich men for undergoing those employments which ought rather to be trusted to the wise these laws I say might have such effect as good diet and care might have on a sick man whose recovery is desperate they might allay and mitigate the disease but it could never be quite healed nor the body politic be brought again to a good habit as long as property remains and it will fall out as in a complication of diseases that by applying a remedy to one sore you will provoke another and that which removes the one ill while the strengthening one part of the body weakens the rest on the contrary answered I it seems to me that men cannot live conveniently where all things are common how can there be any plenty where every man will excuse himself from labor for as the hope of gain does not excite him so the confidence that he has in other men's industry may make him slothful if people come to be pinched with want and yet cannot dispose of anything as their own what can follow upon this but I do not wonder said he that it appears so to you since you have no notion or at least no right one of such a constitution but if you have been in utopia with me and had seen their laws and rules as I did for the space of five years in which I lived among them and during which time I was so delighted with them that indeed I should never have the chance to live with them I do not wonder said he that it appears so to you since you have no notion or at least no right one I was so delighted with them that indeed I should never have left them if it had not been to make the discovery of that new world to the Europeans you would then confess that you had never seen a people so well constituted as they you will not easily persuade me said Peter that any nation in that new world is better governed than those among us for as our understandings are not worse than theirs so our government if I mistake not being more ancient along practice has helped us to find life and some happy chances have discovered other things to us which no man's understanding could ever have invented as for the antiquity either of their government or of ours said he you cannot pass a true judgment of it unless you had read their histories for if they are to be believed they had towns among them before these parts were so much as inhabited and as for those discoveries that have been either hit on by chance or made by ingenious men these might have happened there as well as here I do not deny but we are more ingenious than they are but they exceed us much in industry and application they knew little concerning us before our arrival among them they call us all by a general name of the nations that lie beyond the equinoctial line for their chronicle mentions a ship wreck that was made on their coast 1200 years ago and that some Romans and Egyptians that were in the ship getting safe for sure spent the rest of their days amongst them and such was their ingenuity that from this single opportunity they drew the advantage of arts that were then among the Romans and which were known to these shipwrecked men and by the hints that they gave them they themselves found out even some of those arts which they could not fully explain so happily did they improve that accident of having some of our people cast upon their shore but if such an accident has at any time brought any from thence into Europe we have been so far from improving it that we do not so much as remember it as in after times perhaps not by our people that I was ever there for though they from one such accident made themselves masters of all the good inventions that were among us yet I believe it would be long before we should learn or put in practice any of the good institutions that are among them and this is the true cause of their being better governed and living happier than we though we come not short of them in point of understanding or outward advantages upon this I said to him I earnestly beg you would describe that island very particularly to us be not too short but set out in order all things relating to their soil their rivers their towns their people their manners constitution laws and in a word all that you imagine we desire to know and you may well imagine that we desire to know everything concerning them of which we are hitherto ignorant I will do it very willingly said he for I have digested the whole matter carefully but it will take up some time let's go then said I first in dine and then we shall have leisure enough he consented we went in and dine and after dinner came back and sat down in the same place I ordered my servants to take care that none might come and interrupt us and both Peter and I desired Raphael to be as good as his word when he saw that we were very intent upon it he paused a little to recollect himself and began in this manner the island of utopia is in the middle 200 miles broad and holds almost at the same breath over a great part of it but it grows narrower toward both ends its figure is not unlike a crescent between its horns the sea comes in 11 miles broad and spreads itself into a great bay which is environed with land to the compass of about 500 miles and is well secured from winds in this bay there is no great current the whole coast is as it were one continued harbor which gives all that live on the island great convenience of commerce but the entry into the bay occasioned by rocks on the one hand and shallows on the other is very dangerous in the middle of it there is one single rock which appears above water and may therefore easily be avoided and on the top of it there is a tower in which a garrison is kept the other rocks lie underwater and are very dangerous the channel is known only to the natives so that if any stranger should enter into the bay without one of their pilots he would run great danger of shipwreck for even they themselves could not pass it safe in some marks that are on the coast did not direct their way and if these should be but a little shifted any fleet that might come against them how great so ever it were would be certainly lost on the other side of the island there are likewise many harbors and the coast is so fortified both by nature and art that a small number of men can hinder the descent of a great army but they report and there remains good marks of it to make it credible that this was no island first but a part of the continent utopus that conquered it whose name it still carries for a braxa was its first name brought the rude and uncivilized inhabitants into such a good government and to that measure of politeness that they now far excel all the rest of mankind having soon subdued them he designed to separate them from the continent and to bring the sea quite round them to accomplish this he ordered a deep channel to be dug 15 miles long and that the natives might not think they treated them like slaves he not only forced the inhabitants but also his own soldiers to labor in carrying it on as he set a vast number of men to work he beyond all men's expectations brought it to a speedy conclusion and his neighbors who at first laughed at the folly of the undertaking no sooner sought brought to perfection than they were struck with admiration and terror there are 54 cities in the island all large and well built the manners customs and laws of which are the same and they are all contrived as near in the same manner as the ground on which they stand will allow the nearest lie at least 24 miles distance from one another and the most remote are not so far distant but that a man can go on foot in one day from it to that which lies next to it every city sends three of their wisest senators once a year to Amaro to consult about their common concerns for that is the chief town of the island being situated near the center of it so that it is the most convenient place for their assemblies the jurisdiction of every city extends at least 20 miles and where the towns lie wider they have much more ground no town desires to enlarge its bounds for the people consider themselves rather as tenants and landlords they have built over all the country farmhouses for husband men which are well contrived and furnished with all things necessary for country labor inhabitants are sent by turns from the cities to dwell on them no country family 40 men and women in it besides two slaves there is a master and a mistress set over every family and over 30 families there is a magistrate every year 20 of this family come back to the town after they have stayed two years in the country and in their room there are other 20 sent from the town that they may learn country work from those that have been already one year in the country as they must teach those that come to them the next from the town by this means such as dwell on those in the country and so commit no errors which might otherwise be fatal and bring them under a scarcity of corn but though there is every year such a shifting of the husband men to prevent any man being forced against his will to follow that hard course of life too long yet many among them take pleasure in it that they desire leave to continue in it many years these husband men till the ground breed cattle he would and convey it to the towns either by land or water as his most convenient in a very curious manner for the hens do not sit and hatch them but a vast number of eggs are laid in a gentle and equal heat in order to be hatched and they are no sooner out of the shell and able to stir about but they seem to consider those that feed them as their mothers and follow them as other chickens do the hen that hatched them they breathe very few horses but those they have are full of metal and are kept only for exercising their youth in the art of sitting and riding them for they do not put them to any work either of plowing or carriage in which they employ oxen for though their horses are stronger yet they find oxen can hold out longer and as they are not subject to so many diseases so they are kept upon a less charge and with less trouble and even when they are so worn out that they are no more fit for labor they are good meat at last they sow no corn but that which is to be their bread for they drink either wine cider or parry and often water sometimes boiled with honey or licorice but which they abound and though they know exactly how much corn will serve every town and all that tract of country which belongs to it yet they so much more and breed more cattle than are necessary for their consumption and they give that over plus of which they make no use to their neighbors when they want anything in the country which it does not produce they fetch that from the town without carrying anything in exchange for it and the magistrates of the town take care to see it given them for they meet generally in the town once a month upon a festival day when the time of harvest comes the magistrates in the country send to those in the towns and let them know how many hands they will need for reaping the harvest and the number they call for being sent to them they commonly dispatch it all in one day end of discourses of Raphael Hithloday of the best state of a common wall part 3 of their towns particularly of Amaro from utopia this is a LibriVox recording all LibriVox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit LibriVox.org recording by generally utopia by st. Thomas Moore of their towns particularly of Amaro he that knows one of their towns knows them all they are so like one another except where the situation makes some difference I shall therefore describe one of them and none is so proper as Amaro for as none is more eminent all the rest yielding in precedence to this because it is the seat of their supreme council so there was none of them better known to me I having lived five years altogether in it it lies upon the side of a hill or rather a rising ground its figure is almost square for from the one side of it which shoots up almost to the top of the hill it runs down in a descent for two miles to the river Anadur but it is a little broader the other way that runs along by the bank of that river the Anadur rises about eighty miles above Amaro in a small spring at first but other brooks falling into it which too are more considerable than the rest as it runs by Amaro it is grown half a mile broad but it still grows larger and larger till after sixty miles course below it it is lost in the ocean between the town and the sea and for some miles above the town it ebbs and flows every six hours with a strong current the tide comes up about thirty miles so full that there is nothing but salt water in the river the fresh water being driven back with its force and above that for some miles the water is brackish but a little higher as it runs by the town it is quite fresh and when the tide ebbs it continues fresh all along to the sea there is a bridge cast over the river not of timber but of fair stone consisting of many stately arches it lies at that part of the town that is distanced from the sea so that the ships without any hindrance lie all along the side of the town there is likewise another river that runs by it which though it is not great yet it runs pleasantly for it rises out of the same hill on which the town stands and so runs down through it and falls into the annader the inhabitants have fortified the fountainhead of this river which springs a little without the towns that so if they should happen to be to stop or divert the course of the water nor poison it from thence it is carried in earthen pipes to the lower streets and for those places of the town to which the water of that small river cannot be conveyed they have great cisterns for receiving the rainwater which supplies the want of the other the town is compassed with a high and thick wall in which there are many towers and forts there is also a broad and deep dry ditch set thick with thorns cast around three sides of the town and the river instead of a ditch on the fourth side the streets are very convenient for all carriage and are well sheltered from the winds their buildings are good and so uniform that a whole side of a street looks like one house the streets are twenty feet broad there lie gardens behind all their houses these are large but enclosed with buildings that on all hands face the streets so that every house has both a door to the street and a back door to the garden their doors all have two leaves they are easily opened so they shut of their own accord and there being no property among them every man may freely enter into any house whatsoever at every ten years end they shift their houses by lots they cultivate their gardens with great care so that they have both vines fruits herbs and flowers in them and all is so well ordered and so finely kept that I never saw gardens anywhere that were both so fruitful and so beautiful as theirs and this humor of ordering their garden not only kept up by the pleasure they find in it but also by an emulation between the inhabitants of the several streets who vie with each other and there is indeed nothing belonging to the whole town that is both more useful and more pleasant so that he who founded the town seems to have taken care of nothing more than of their gardens for they say the whole scheme of the town was designed at first by utopus but he left all that belonged to the ornament and improvement of it to be added by those that should come after him that being too much for one man to bring to perfection their records that contain the history of their town and state are preserved with an exact care and run backwards seventeen hundred and sixty years from these it appears that their houses were at first low and mean like cottages made of any sort of timber and were built with mud walls and thatched with straw but now their houses are three stories high the fronts of them are faced either with stone plastering or brick and between the facings of their walls they throw in their rubbish their roofs are flat and on them they lay a sort of plaster which costs very little and yet is so tempered that it is not apt to take fire and yet resist the weather more than lead they have great quantities of glass among them with which they glaze their windows they use also in their windows a thin linen cloth that is so oiled or gummed that it both keeps out the wind and gives free admission to the light end of their towns particularly of Amarro of their magistrates from Utopia this is a LibriVox recording all LibriVox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit LibriVox.org recording by Genelie Utopia by St. Thomas Moore of their magistrates thirty families choose every year a magistrate who is anciently called the syphilgrant but is now called the philarch and over every ten syphilgrants with the family subject to them there is another magistrate who is anciently called the Trannibor but of late the Archphilarch all the syphilgrants who are in number two hundred choose the prince out of a list of four who are named by the people of the four divisions of the city but they take an oath before they proceed to an election that they will choose him whom they think most fit the office they give him their voices secretly so that it is not known for whom everyone gives his suffrage the prince is for life unless he is removed upon suspicion of some design to enslave the people the Trannibors are new chosen every year but yet they are for the most part continued all their other magistrates are only annual the Trannibors meet every third day and often are if necessary and consult with the prince either concerning the affairs of the state in general or such private differences as may arise sometimes among the people though that falls out but seldom there are always two syphilgrants called into the council chamber and these are changed every day it is a fundamental rule of their government that no conclusion can be made in anything that relates to the public till it has been first debated three several days in their council it is death for any to meet and consult concerning the state unless it be either in their ordinary council or in the assembly of the whole body of the people these things have been so provided among them that the prince and the Trannibors may not conspire together to change the government and enslave the people therefore when anything of great importance is set on foot it is sent to the syphilgrants who after they have communicated it to the families that belong to their divisions and have considered it among themselves make report to the senate and upon great occasions the matter to the council of the whole island one rule observed in their council is never to debate a thing on the same day in which it is first proposed for that is always referred to the next meeting so that men may not rashly and in the heat of discourse engage themselves too soon which might bias them so much that instead of consulting the good of the public they might rather study to support their first opinions and by a perverse and preposterous sort of shame hazard their country rather than endanger their own reputation or venture the being suspected to have wanted foresight in the expedience that they at first proposed and therefore to prevent this they take care that they may rather be deliberate than sudden in their motions end of of their magistrates of their trades and manner of life from utopia this is a LibriVox recording all LibriVox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit LibriVox.org recording by generally utopia by St. Thomas More of their trades and manner of life agriculture is that which is so universally understood among them that no person either man or woman is ignorant of it they are instructed in it from their childhood partly by what they learn at school and partly by practice they being let out often into the fields about the town where they not only see others at work but are likewise exercised in it themselves besides agriculture which is so common to them all every man has some peculiar trade to which he applies himself such as the manufacture of wool or flax masonry, smith's work, or carpenter's work for there is no sort of trade that is in great esteem among them throughout the island they were the same sort of clothes without any other distinction except what is necessary to distinguish the two sexes and the married and unmarried the fashion never alters and as it is neither disagreeable nor uneasy so it is suited to the climate and calculated both for their summers and winters every family makes their own clothes but all among them women as well as men learn one or other of the trades formerly mentioned women for the most part deal in wool and flax which suit best with their weakness leaving the router trades to the men the same trade generally passes down from father to son inclinations often following descent but if any man's genius lies another way he is by adoption translated into a family that deals in the trade to which he is inclined and when that is to be done care is taken not only by his father but by the magistrate that he may be put to a discreet and good man and if after a person has learned one trade he desires to acquire another that is also allowed and is managed in the same manner as the former when he has learned both he follows that which he likes best unless the public has more occasion for the other the chief and almost the only business of the syphilgrants is to take care that no man may live idle but that everyone may follow his trade diligently yet they do not wear themselves out with perpetual toil from morning to night as if they were beasts of burden which as it is indeed a heavy slavery so it is everywhere the common course of life amongst all mechanics except the utopians but they dividing the day and night appoint six of these for work three of which are before dinner and three after they then sup and at eight o'clock counting from noon go to bed and sleep eight hours the rest of their time besides that taken up in work eating and sleeping is left to every man's discretion yet they are not to abuse that interval to luxury and idleness but must employ it in some proper exercise according to their various inclinations which is for the most part reading it is ordinary to have public lectures every morning before daybreak at which none are obliged to appear but those who are marked out for literature yet a great many both men and women of all ranks go to hear lectures of one sort or other according to their inclinations but if others that are not made for contemplation choose rather to employ themselves at that time in their trades as many of them do they are not hindered but are rather commended as men that take care to serve their country after supper they spend an hour in some diversion in summer in their gardens and in winter in the halls where they eat where they entertain each other either with music or discourse they do not so much as no dice or any such foolish and mischievous games they have however two sorts of games not unlike our chess the one is between several numbers in which one number as it were consumes another the other resembles a battle between the virtues and the vices in which the enmity and the vices among themselves and their agreement against virtue is not unpleasantly represented together with the special opposition between the particular virtues and vices as also the methods by which vice either openly assaults or secretly undermines virtue and virtue on the other hand resists it but the time appointed for labor is to be narrowly examined otherwise you may imagine that since there are only six hours appointed for work they may fall under a scarcity of necessary provisions but it is so far from being true that this time is not sufficient for supplying them with plenty of all things either necessary or convenient that it is rather too much and this you will easily apprehend if you consider how great a part of all other nations is quite idle first women generally do little who are the half of mankind and if some few women are diligent their husbands are idle and then consider the great company of idle priests and of those that are called religious men add to these all rich men from the states and land who are called noblemen and gentlemen together with their families made up of idle persons that are kept more for show than use add to these all those strong and lusty beggars that go about pretending some disease and excuse for their begging and upon the whole account you will find that the number of those by whose labor mankind is supplied is much less than you perhaps imagined then consider how few of those that work are employed in labor that are of real service for we who measure all things by money give rise to many trades that are both vain and superfluous and serve only to support riot and luxury for if those who work were employed only in such things as the conveniences of life require there would be such an abundance of them that the prices of them would so sink that tradesmen cannot be maintained by their gains if all those who labor about useless things were set to more profitable employments and if all they that languish out their lives in sloth and idleness every one of whom consumes as much as any two of the men that are at work were forced to labor you may easily imagine that a small proportion of time would serve for doing all that is either necessary profitable or pleasant to mankind especially while pleasure is kept within its due bounds this appears very plainly in utopia for there in a great city and in all the territory that lies around it you can scarce find 500 either men or women by their age and strength capable of that are not engaged in it even the syphilgrants though excused by the law yet do not excuse themselves but work that by their examples they may excite the industry of the rest of the people the like exemption is allowed to those who being recommended to the people by the priests are by the secret suffrages of the syphilgrants privileged from labor that they may apply themselves wholly to study and if any of these fall short of those hopes that they seemed at first to give they are obliged to return to work and sometimes a mechanic that so employs his leisure hours as to make considerable advancement in learning is eased from being a tradesman and ranked among their learned men out of these they choose their ambassadors their priests their trannobors and the prince himself anciently called their barzines but is called of late their atomists and thus from the great numbers among them that are neither suffered to be idle nor to be employed in any fruitless labor they only make the estimate how much may be done in those few hours in which they are obliged to labor but besides all that has already been said it is to be considered that the needful arts among them are managed with less labor than anywhere else the building or repairing of houses among us employ many hands because often a thriftless air suffers a house that his father built to fall into decay so that his successor must at a great cost repair that which he might have kept up with a small charge frequently happens that the same house which one person built at a vast expense is neglected by another who thinks he has a more delicate sense of the beauties of architecture and he suffering it to fall to ruin builds another at no less charge but among the utopians all things are so regulated that men very seldom build upon a new piece of ground and are not only very quick in repairing their houses but show their foresight in preventing their decay so that their buildings are preserved very long with very little labor and thus the builders to whom that care belongs are often without employment except the hewing of timber and the squaring of stones that the materials may be in readiness for raising a building very suddenly when there is any occasion for it as to their clothes observe how little work is spent in them while they are at labor their clothes with leather and skins cut carelessly about them which will last seven years and when they appear in public they put on an upper garment which hides leather and these are all of one color and that is the natural color of the wool as they need less woolen cloth than is used anywhere else so that which they make use of is much less costly they use linen cloth more but that is prepared with less labor and they value cloth only by the whiteness of the linen or the cleanness of the wool without much regard to the fineness of the thread while in other places four or five upper garments of woolen cloth of different colors and as many vests of silk will scarce serve one man and while those that are nicer think ten too few every man there is content with one which very often serves him two years nor is there anything that contempt a man to desire more for if he had them he would neither be the warmer nor would he make one jot the better appearance for it and thus since they are all employed in some useful labor and since they content themselves with fewer things it falls out that there is a great abundance of all things among them so that it frequently happens that for want of other work vast numbers are sent out to men the highways but when no public undertaking is to be performed the hours of working are lessened the magistrates never engage the people in unnecessary labor since the chief end of the constitution is to regulate labor by the necessities of the public and to allow the people as much time as is necessary for the improvement of their minds in which they think the happiness of life consists end of of their trades and manner of life of their traffic from utopia this is a LibriVox recording all LibriVox recordings are in the public domain for more information or to volunteer please visit LibriVox.org recording by Jenna Lee Utopia by St. Thomas More of their traffic but it is now time to explain to you the mutual intercourse of this people their commerce and the rules by which all things are distributed among them as their cities are composed of families so their families are made up of those that are nearly related to one another their women when they grow up are married out but all the males both children and grandchildren live still in the same house in great obedience to their common parent unless age has weakened his understanding and in that case he that is next to him in age comes in his room but lest any city should become either too great or by any accident be dispeepled provision is made that none of their cities may contain above 6,000 families besides those of the country around it no family may have less than 10 and more than 16 persons in it but there can be no determined number for the children under age this rule is easily observed by removing some of the children of a more fruitful couple to any other family that does not abound so much in them by the same rule they supply cities that do not increase so fast from others that breathe faster and if there is any increase over the whole island then they draw out a number of their citizens out of the several towns and send them over to the neighboring continent where if they find that the inhabitants have more soil than they can well cultivate they fix a colony taking the inhabitants into their society if they are willing to live with them and where they do that of their own accord they quickly enter into their method of life and conform to their rules and this proves a happiness to both nations for according to their constitution such care is taken of the soil that it becomes fruitful enough for both though it might be otherwise too narrow and barren for anyone of them but if the natives refuse to conform themselves to their laws they drive them out of those bounds which they mark out for themselves and use force if they resist for they count it a very just cause of war for a nation to hinder others from possessing a part of that soil of which they make no use but which is suffered to lie idle and uncultivated since every man has by the law of nature a right to such a waste portion of the earth as is necessary for his subsistence if an accident has so less than the number of the inhabitants of any of their towns that it cannot be made up from the other towns of the island without diminishing them too much which is said to have fallen out but twice since they were first to people when great numbers were carried off by the plague the loss is then supplied by recalling as many as are wanted from their colonies for they will abandon these rather than suffer the towns and the island to sink too low but to return to their manner of living in society the oldest man of every family as has been already said is its governor wives serve their husbands and children their parents and always the younger serves the elder every city is divided into four equal parts and in the middle of each there is a marketplace what is brought visit and manufactured by the several families is carried from thence to houses appointed for that purpose in which all things of a sort are laid by themselves and the other every father goes and takes what so ever he or his family stand in need of without either paying for it or leaving anything in exchange there is no reason for giving a denial to any person since there is such plenty of everything among them and there is no danger of a man's asking for more than he needs they have no inducements to do this since they are sure they shall always be supplied it is the fear of want that makes any of the whole race of animals I agree or ravenous but besides fear there is in man a pride that makes him fancy it a particular glory to excel others in pomp and excess but by the laws of the utopians there is no room for this near these markets there are others for all sorts of provisions or there are not only herbs fruits and bread but also fish fall and cattle there are also without their towns places appointed near some running water for killing their beasts and for washing away their filth which is done by their slaves for they suffer none of their citizens to kill their cattle because they think that pity and good nature are among the best of those affections that are born with us are much impaired by the butchering of animals nor do they suffer anything that is foul or unclean to be brought within their towns lest the air should be infected by ill smells which might prejudice their health in every street there are great halls that lie at an equal distance from each other distinguished by particular names the syphilgrans dwell in those that are set over 30 families 15 lying on one side of it and as many on the other in these halls they all meet and have their repasts the stewards of every one of them come to the marketplace at an appointed hour and according to the number of those that belong to the hall they carry home provisions but they take more care of their sick than of any others these are lodged and provided for in public hospitals they have belonging to every town for hospitals that are built without their walls and are so large that they may pass for little towns by this means if they had ever such a number of sick persons they could lodge them conveniently and at such a distance that such of them as our sick of infectious diseases may be kept so far from the rest that there can be no danger of contagion the hospitals are furnished and stored with all things that are convenient for the ease and recovery of the sick and those that are put in them are looked after with such tender care and are so constantly attended by their skillful physicians that as none is sent to them against their will so there is scarce one in a whole town that if he should fall ill would not choose rather to go dither than lie sick at home after the steward of the hospitals has taken for the sick whatsoever the physician prescribes then the best things that are left in the market are distributed equally among the halls and proportion to their numbers only in the first place they serve the prince the chief priests the trannibores the ambassadors and strangers if there are any which indeed falls out but seldom and for whom there are houses well furnished particularly appointed for their reception when they come among them at the hours of dinner and supper the whole civil grantee being called together by sound of trumpet they meet and eat together except only such as are in the hospitals or lycic at home yet after the halls are served no man is hindered to carry provisions home from the marketplace for they know that none does that but for some good reason for though any that will may eat at home yet none does it willingly since it is both ridiculous and foolish for any to give themselves the trouble to make it ready in ill dinner at home when there is a much more plentiful one made ready for him so near hand all the uneasy and sordid services about these halls are performed by slaves but the dressing and cooking their meat and the ordering their tables belong only to the women all those of every family taking it by turns they sit at three or more tables according to their number the men sit towards the wall and the women sit on the other side that if any of them should be taken suddenly ill which is no uncommon case amongst women with child she may without disturbing the rest rise and go to the nurses room who are there with the children where there is always clean water at hand and cradles in which they may lay the young children if there is occasion for it and a fire that they may shift and dress them before it every child is nursed by its own mother if death or sickness does not intervene and in that case the syphilgrins wives find out a nurse quickly which is no hard matter for anyone that can do it offers herself cheerfully whereas they are much inclined to that piece of mercy so the child whom they nurse considers the nurse as its mother all the children under five years old sit among the nurses the rest of the younger sort of both sexes till they are fit for marriage either serve those that sit at table or if they are not strong enough for that stand by them in great silence and eat what is given them nor have they any other formality of dining in the middle of the first table which stands across the upper end of the hall the syphilgrint and his wife for that is the chief and most conspicuous place next to him sit two of the most ancient for there go always four to a mess if there is a temple within the syphilgrinty the priests and his wife sit with the syphilgrint above all the rest next them there is a mixture of old and young who are so placed that as the young are set near others so they are mixed with the more ancient which they say was appointed on this account the majority of the old people and the reverence that is due to them might restrain the younger from all indecent words and gestures dishes are not served up to the whole table at first but the best are first set before the old whose seats are distinguished from the young and after them all the rest are served alike the old men distribute to the younger any curious meats that happen to be set before them if there is not such an abundance of them that the whole company may thus old men are honored with a particular respect yet all the rest fair as well as they both dinner and supper are begun with some lecture of morality that is read to them but it is so short that it is not tedious nor uneasy to them to hear it from hence the old men take occasion to entertain those about them with some useful and pleasant enlargements but they do not engross the whole discourse so to themselves during their meals that the younger may not serve for a share on the contrary they engage them to talk that so they may in that free way of conversation find out the force of everyone's spirit and observe his temper they dispatch their dinners quickly but sit long at supper because they go to work after the one and are to sleep after the other during which they think the stomach carries on the concoction more vigorously they never sup without music and there is always fruit served up after meat while they are at table some berm perfumes and sprinkle about fragrant ointments and sweet waters in short they want nothing that may cheer up their spirits they give themselves a large allowance that way and indulge themselves in all such pleasures as are attended with no inconvenience thus do those that are in the towns live together but in the country where they live at a great distance everyone eats at home and no family wants any necessary sort of provision from them that provisions are sent unto those that live in the towns end of their traffic