 Okay, I'm gonna ask Martin Rama to join me over here. Martin, thanks very much. Martin has been running around like a madman for the past several weeks, and trying to contact him over the past few days has been impossible, because he's been in meetings like this, but usually ones that don't seem to end until about 11 o'clock at night. So, Martin, I think I'm just moving on now because you said that you actually wanted to kind of move on from what Gary was talking about. It's not just the number of jobs, right? Yes. And on that, let me state my full agreement with what Gary said. If we take the definition of international conference of labor statisticians that ILO uses of employment, that is a broad definition, and it includes what a lot of people do in developing countries, which is they are farmers, they are self-employed. About half of the people at work in the world are not wage employees. But mentally, we always drift towards thinking around wage employment as our organizing concept. And that's how we end up emphasizing the number of jobs. And in fact, even here we had questions which were about more employment, for instance. And it's true that lack of jobs is important in many places, but in many developing countries, people work. Even if you look at the events in the Arab world and how they started, the young man who sacrificed his life in protest, the narrative, the usual narrative we hear is about an unemployed young man. The true narrative is about a street vendor protesting about abuse by local authorities. The way we think about having voice, again, goes into a bargaining or a negotiation between workers and employers. And perhaps the way Gary phrased the efforts of the Self-Employed Women's Association about peace rates are one way of telling that story. But what the Self-Employed Women's Association does is to represent the interest of street vendors and waste pickers and garbage collectors with the local authorities. The main constraint to their business is often whether they can operate and how they can operate. Concepts like jobless growth. In fact, when you look at what happens with employment, basically it grows like the labor force. And employment rates do not explode, do not disappear, so you take a 10-year period, and the creation of employment is more or less the number of people who enter the labor force. And so the question is not so much the number of jobs, is what do people do? What kind of work they do? And also what kind of jobs they are in other sense, right, how protected they are, how well people are treated. Yes. And in fact, when we work on this report and there is information about it outside in different places and there is a website that can be fully downloaded, we work very much on a communications mindset to present the ideas. And so you will find a lot of tweets. And our main tweet is jobs dry development. When we, the more we looked at the problems of employment in developing countries, the more we found that some jobs have a strong impact on development and some others are going nowhere, are forms of survivorship. And let me just start by saying that we, again, we tend to think about good jobs from a perspective that thinks of wage employment and what does the job imply for me? And so what is my salary, what are my benefits, am I protected, can do I have voice? And all that is fine. But jobs first are more than just that. There are non-monetary dimensions which are extremely important. Jobs provide networks to rural migrants when they arrive to the cities. They provide learning opportunities for people who can acquire new skills when they work for a foreign-owned company and then move on to different places. They provide a sense of opportunity and then shape the way people interact with each other. So in fact, jobs are the driver of some of the things we really care about in development. Look at previous well-development reports which have been influential. The gender well-development report, what is it about? In the end, it's about jobs empowering women. One of the most important ways in which the role of women in the household and in society changes is through access to paid work. You look at the one, let me just say two more examples. One is geography, urbanization, jobs in cities are jobs that make everybody else more productive. We all talk about urban economics and what the importance of urbanization and why China succeeded in urbanizing and India is not succeeded as well. And you look at a lot of what is done in that area and it's all about jobs in cities, not just cities, it's jobs in cities. Or you look about conflict. The reason, one of the most important messages of the conflict well-development report where it's needed is jobs and jobs that create a sense of opportunity, that create engagement trust that provide alternatives to conflict. Reintegrate people basically. Reintegrate people. So some jobs are very good for development, even if they do not meet some of the standards we would love. And we use the example of the garment industry in Bangladesh by some criteria. Those jobs are terrible jobs, let's be honest. In other ways, they have changed the role of women in Bangladesh. Look at Vietnam, I used to work many years in Vietnam. Vietnam is probably the best story in poverty reduction we know. The fastest poverty reduction, it all happens through making smallholder farmer agriculture more productive. You're gonna get Vietnam this afternoon. So let's not focus on it now. But I'm, you know, because the other thing that you mentioned, and I think we tend to forget about the importance of civil society, but the role of jobs actually in engaging people in civil society so that they have a stake. Yes. But jobs, you know, it's not one size fits all, so it changes from country to country, right? Yeah, and again, let me then pick up on another point of the introduction of the panel, John Page said it's important that to see if we get out of conventional wisdom, and that's the way also we try to approach this report. And what we found is that there is no one size fits all. There is no, the conventional wisdom on jobs may be a bit too narrow. And we found that the nature of the jobs challenge is varies a lot across countries. So it's not just that you need more jobs or more good jobs of these or that sort. Depends on the level of development of the country, depends on the resource and the geography of the country, depends on the institutions of the country, depends on the demography. So we came up with not one size fits all, but with eight size fits all. For instance, we have a typology that goes from agrarian countries in terms of development to urbanizing countries, to formalizing countries, and the challenges are very different. We have countries that are resource rich and that poses specific challenges. Small island nations were also geography matters a lot. We have countries with high youth unemployment, which is, I'm not talking about unemployment, it's high youth unemployment is a special category and part of what happened in the Arab world can also be framed in that way. And you have ageing societies. So when you combine a single country, like say Mozambique can be agrarian and resource rich, but when you take into account what the challenges are, where the constraints are, you also realize that there are some jobs that will really take the country to the next level. And focusing, having priorities on those type of jobs, jobs that make smallholder farming productive in the case of agrarian countries, jobs that create opportunity in countries with high youth unemployment, jobs that distribute the wealth in a way that does not undermine employment opportunities in resource rich countries. You get an agenda that also for aid agencies and for all partners is very different depending on the context. Now I want to get also into the how you make it happen and this concept of a three-layered approach to policy. Yeah, so the implications taking that logic one step forward, we come up with the idea that there are three things that one can do for jobs. But before I go to the three, let me make one point very clear. When we start from thinking about wage employment, labor market, labor market segmentation, we end up thinking that the problem is in how the labor market operates. And we end up in very heated debates about flexibility, rigidity. When you look at it more closely, the main constraints for the creation of the jobs with the high development payoffs are elsewhere. They are in land issues. They are in the problems of urbanization. They are in problems of governance and the economics of privilege. So we tend to end up in a very heated and politicized debate which is not so central. And so our three layers are a combination. One is some fundamentals. There are some fundamentals that are needed whatever the jobs challenge is. These include micro-economics stability. You cannot be in a situation of a big crisis. You need an enabling business environment. You need some basic levels of human capital, although it doesn't mean that it's always a prerequisite, but there's a minimum level that is needed. And you need the rule of law. And by the rule of law, we don't want to mean just property rights. We also mean fundamental rights at work. We want to be very clear that informal sector jobs can be good for development, but there are some things that are no-no, and that's where the distinction should be. So first layer is fundamental. Second layer is labor policies. And as I said, we do not see a situation where one has to go for either a model, even excellent models, flex security is not necessarily the model everywhere. And so it's just knowing where is the range where you can operate. A range where basic rights are not neglected, but the creation of jobs connected to the world, jobs in cities is not undermined by the interventions. And the most important is the priorities. Once you know you're operating in an agrarian country, you're operating in a resource rich country in an aging society, is to know what it will take to get those jobs that make the transformation, to get women into paying jobs, to get cities that are functional, to get young people out of idealist. And that's where perhaps the biggest payoffs could be. Okay, stay there. Okay. I'm going to again take some questions from the audience. And Sorin, who was there before, if you put, I'm going to make sure I recognize you if you still want to talk to, and people who've asked questions before I'm going to put lower on the list. But please, if you want to ask a question or make a comment to Martin Ramam, please push your button. Come on, I've only got the panel asking questions here. It's not rocket science. Let's go. Okay, John, you get to start. Okay, it's actually a question for Gary and Martin. I heard Gary say two things when he began. One was we need to think about ways to get the poor out of the jobs they're in. And the other one is we need to raise the incomes of the poor in the jobs they're in. And most of the conversation we had then subsequently was raising the incomes of the poor in the jobs in which they find themselves. Martin, your focus seems to be a bit more on the first part of that story, which is let's get the poor out of the jobs they're in. Is there a trade-off here? Is there a contradiction here, especially when you think that aid budgets are limited? Okay, well, first of all, it's going to be directed at Martin and Gary later on because that's the way we're playing it, sorry. But Martin. We, one of the things we tried to do is to bring the, in this report, is to bring the best expertise we could in each of the areas on jobs. So we had Ravi Kambura as our advisor and jobs and poverty. And so that's a colleague of Gary. We had John Halty-Wonger on job creation and distraction and George Akerloff on the jobs and social cohesion. And I want to mention this because the logic of job creation and distraction is very central to the growth part. And so we see a combination of two things that are important. One is getting better at what you do in your job. That was a story, for instance, of smallholder farming. But a lot of the growth story is a story of people moving to different jobs. And urbanization is about people moving out of agriculture and the transition to wage employment is another important step. So I will not say it's one or the other, but we see the process of job creation and distraction as critically important. And that brings me to the story of the work in poor, which I think Gary has so rightly emphasized it, which is that the conventional wisdom these days seems to be that everybody who is there is there out of survivorship. There was a time when there was a lot of enthusiasm. You read Fernando de Soto and everybody was a potential entrepreneur and it was just the constraints that were on the way that were preventing people from becoming entrepreneurs. Now we seem to be in the opposite end where we think, well, these people will love to have a solid job. They are there just because they cannot do anything else. And what we have found is that the story is a bit more mixed, that everywhere among those self-employed who have this micro-business, there is a group that has some potential. And if just that group managed to go from being a self-employed to hiring one person, that would make a phenomenal transformation. So we reviewed quite a lot of experiments that have been conducted on, is it micro-credit? Is it management training? What is that works? Okay, no more questions from the audience, please. But Dr. Lars Engsberg-Pettersen, who is joining us somewhere here on the front row. Yeah, Lars? Thank you very much. If this goes through, yes. You said in the beginning that when you started up the work, you were not sure that jobs were very central to the development issue, but you ended up saying that they are. To me, the overall objective of all our work is poverty reduction. Some of the fundamentals are a lack of, or inequalities at national level and some courses at the international level, rising food prices and so on. There are many courses. So where do you fit in, jobs in that picture? If we need economic transition, not just growth, but transition, we need to address some of the courses at the international, at the national level. Why is it so important to look at jobs? Okay, and can you give Martin a clock, too, just to keep him- Okay, sorry. Starting at 60, please, Joe. Okay. I think there is an intuitive understanding of the importance of jobs, but the conceptual tools we use tend to neglect. We talk about proper growth and we talk about the sectoral composition of growth as affecting poverty, but we tend to think from a growth perspective in investment and accumulation. We tend to think about the binding constraints to investment. What we say is if we flip the problem over, if we think not about the allocation of capital for growth, but the allocation of people to different jobs. When you see it through jobs, you see things that you do not see when you look at investment or capital. You do not see when you look at investment or capital or sectors where it's men or women, where it's young people or not. So, and we have a texture of data, micro data, that helps us much more if we start from the employment side and how development will change the composition of employment than if we start by just saying the return to capital and do they get finance for the investments. Thank you. Tony Addison. Thank you, Hillary. The question is simple. Many children are in jobs when they should be in school. So what do we do about it? Remember the seat. You can use this clock, Martin. Okay. It's a very important one. Again, we try to really pay attention to the aspect of rights and we feel very grateful that we had the support of the Nordic Trust Fund for Human Rights in preparing this report. And we started from a very clear premise that we should refine that definition of jobs, of employment that we saw on the screen by being very clear that some things are not, cannot be considered jobs. And that's where all the very damaging forms of child labor should fall in. Now, one should differentiate child work from child labor. And a lot of children work in developing countries in ways that are still consistent with them going to school, helping their families and so on. So one should differentiate the things that through poverty reduction will help improve the condition of children and the areas in which really specific policies are needed. And when I say labor policies in the three layer, when I say there has to be policies that prevent the violation of rights, that's clearly what it should fall. Thank you, Martin. Sam, Jones. Yeah, I'm kind of... Clock, please. I'm curious about the balance between what we might call micro-economic interventions, so the micro-credit type of thing, and macro-economic interventions. So you mentioned your first layer is about macro-economic stability, providing enabling environment. That sounds really what we've heard before. So is there a role for proactive macro-economic or fiscal policy to promote growth, much of my jobs, sorry. I would like to distinguish two things. One is aggregate versus micro. The other is short-term versus long-term. We didn't go in our work into the short-term thing, like what is the mix of monetary and fiscal policy that is more appropriate. But we went quite a lot on this distinction between the targeted programs and the aggregate programs. For each of the eight cases in this typology of jobs challenges, we tried to find countries that had done well. So do we have success stories? And what is interesting first, we did. We did find. What is interesting is that none of them did things that were related to labor policies. In general, that's not where the action was. So again, if I take one by one, I know that we should not discuss Vietnam, but a successful agrarian country was Vietnam and it was land reform and it was reforming the commercialization of agricultural products. You take a country, a resource rich country that was successful, that's Chile. And Chile managed to create a stabilization fund that created incentives for diversification of its exports. You take a successful country with high use and employment. We found that Slovenia is a very good model and that was through competition in product markets through EU integration. You take a country that was successful in conflict affected situation that was run and there was demobilization with the stimulus on the coffee side. So the policies that can do the trick tend to be first, not necessarily labor policies, even if we're talking jobs. And they have an element of aggregation. It's not just micro programs. I think there are big things that count. Sorry. All right, we have two more and they've got to be very quick. And one is Adam Split. Yes, thank you. I pushed the green one. Yeah, I'm talking. Thank you very much. I have a question concerning the role of the state and promoting jobs. What do you have any findings concerning a general enabling business environment vis-à-vis specific sectors, supporting specific sectors? Yeah. One point that is clear is that jobs are mainly created by the private sector. Roughly nine out of 10 jobs in the world are created by the private sector. So if we are talking about employment and stimulating the creation of employment and the right kind of jobs is what can drive the private sector to do that and ways that the incentives are misaligned and the private sector may not be creating those jobs. This is not to say that public sector jobs are not important. Teachers, agricultural extension workers, urban planners, without them it doesn't work. But in general, the countries that went in the direction of using public employment as a tool did not go too far. In a way, one can say the problem of the Arab world in many cases has to do with the role that the public sector jobs had and how queuing for those jobs distorted anything from educational supply to job search behaviors. But there are circumstances again in which public jobs are very important. Again, I mentioned Rwanda demobilization programs. Some programs targeted to use, use at risk. Some public works programs for poverty alleviation. So there is a role. It's just that is not the silver bullet for the big story of job creation. Okay, I have to come in here. So is there a silver bullet? Thank you. Stefan Isaacson, and I'm afraid you're the last one. Thank you. My own? Yeah, thank you. Yes, a very brief question because I'm not in the same position as Ib, but I have sort of the responsibility of looking into where do we put our money? I mean, from an ODA perspective, because what you're talking about here now, Martin, is a lot about policy changes that actually needs to be derived from the countries themselves for labor organization, et cetera, et cetera. But from an ODA perspective, where do we put our money to invest it wisely to get that in for a box? Thanks. We try to derive some of the implications of these analysis for aid and for the international community. And we thought about ourselves at the World Bank. So what will we do differently if we think that jobs are more central than we assumed before? And there are several things. This first one element is data. One should not underestimate the challenges we face on the data front. This report has a huge statistical annex, all the data are available online. We processed 800 household surveys and sensors just to go to the micro data. We had data for the equivalent of 8% of mankind, roughly, individual data to try to get to the numbers, how many people work in cities and not in cities, how many people are self-employed or not. You take official statistics and you get a completely distorted picture because typically they are reported by ministries of labor. So first thing, there is a data agenda and it's not one of measuring unemployment. It's measuring the working poor, knowing who they are. But there are several other layers. One is thinking strategically. I would believe that at the level of country assistance strategies, thinking jobs at that level is very important. Thinking analytically also. What is preventing job creation and distraction in a way that is conducive to growth? What is preventing poor people from moving, becoming more productive or moving to other jobs? Understanding more the micro evidence to be said. And then finally, being selective, depending on the nature of the country you work with. Thank you, Martin. Thank you very much.