 Do you have some information? Yeah. He's really educational. Most of them are found on YouTube. On the back here we've got Challenge 22. It's just a 22 day plant based diet challenge. All these animal foods, this is basically standard practice here in Australia. Is it? Yeah, this is the rule. This isn't the exception. Yeah, I don't know about that. The vast majority of animal foods come from factory farms or they all end up... What's happening with the beef? That's not standard practice. What's happening with the pork is not standard practice. The way the beef is getting killed, their cow is getting killed there. That's not standard. How are they supposed to kill the cow? How do they kill the cow in Australia? There's two methods. There's electric and then there's a bolt through the head. What you're saying there is not standard. This is the first example of standard practice. Are you working in a slaughterhouse? No, but I work in food lots. I get exposed to a lot of primary industry. I've been to a number of eventoirs. I've been to feedlots. So you've seen what happens on the kill floor, yeah? How did that make you feel like it was okay? It's really confronting. When you've seen standard killing of animals, did that make you feel like that's humane? Do you reckon these guys here would think that's humane? Or if you showed them what happens in an abattoir? No, but we talk about them. They have been exposed though. I wouldn't recommend everybody that consumes meat to see what happens in the animal. And if you are able to understand the system, if you're able to accept it, then eat meat. And I understand the practices of systemised farming. And I've been in it for a long time. I don't eat a lot of meat. I'm not happy. I've killed animals. How did that make you feel? It's not like that. It doesn't feel like you're supposed to do it? No, I wouldn't say that at all. I actually think that we're all a part of the food chain. Like a lion if a lion killed a cow, do you think they would feel bad about it? If a lion killed a cow, would a lion feel bad about it? No. So what, they're true carnivores? Yeah. So a human being to say that we're meant to do it, we shouldn't have any reservations about it. We should be able to show our children what happens to an animal. Parallels, they're probably a little bit faster. That's too far. If we were in the utopian environment where we had to hunt and kill and take an animal's life with consumption, that's a conversation that resonates a lot easier. And where it becomes confronting is when you systemise and put things, put lives into a system. Yeah. Products. Make them products. But then you, is a part of it, do you think it's necessary if we can be healthy without it? You can be healthy without it. But it doesn't mean that the vegan lifestyle is the best diet for you. Is it the best for them? Is it the best for a cow? I'm not sure what you mean by that. The reason we're vegan is not for ourselves predominantly. It's because we're against what happens to innocent animals. That's how we look at it from the victim's perspective. We're doing this to animals for no reason basically. No no, we are doing it for a reason. The reason is consumption. Is it justified though? How is it justified if we can get alternatives in this society? What are the alternatives? What are you doing about it? We've got all of these vegan alternatives here that don't contain this violence. So that in restaurants and things like that. The vegan diet is one of the fastest growing social justice movement. If you remove the the justice element if you remove the emotion from a conversation and you look at it purely on the base of you've got logic. You mean no emotion, just logic? Just purely logical sort of objective. And you look at the production of beef. Beef is a really easy one. It's producing beef in Australia. It's probably one of the most inefficient sources of protein or from as far as a scalable biomass it's awful. It's really bad environment. True. But then if you look at things such as insects, fantastic insects are probably one of the greatest converters of resources to protein and to biomass. If you've got a cow it's roughly depending on breed, diet and a number of other environmental factors. You've got a 10 to 1 conversion 10 kilos of grain and what about water? To 1 kilo of grain. Forget about it. Crickets, ameli worms and Tasmania it's about 1 kilo to 10 kilo upwards. What about legumes? Legumes don't have anywhere near the same sort of dietary complexity as what these other protein sources have. They're a source of protein but you also need to subsidize that with other things such as minerals. Minerals, seaweeds, sea vegetables but again no minerals in beans or? No, there are. But the thing is that the point I was going to say is that the vegan diet is one of the fastest growing diets there is a lot more people taking up the vegan diet but if you would have switched off metres of protein we wouldn't be able to sustain ourselves. Why not? Because we don't have to land. We're using more resources to grow animals you just said that. The thing is that if you're using more resources to how much land does it take to produce legumes? In Australia? I mean, it's good. It's probably one of the most inefficient sources of protein. But if you were to switch off the reason we're chopping down the rainforest is to grow crops. We're feeding crops to animals and we're feeding a lot more crops to animals than a human would consume there. Let me finish for a sec. If we're feeding 10 times the amount of food to a cow when we could eliminate animal agriculture and just eat the crops ourselves, how many crops would we need? Less? One of the things about a lot of what is happening in systemised farming practices is you're also using a lot of seafood protein and you're using a lot of animal based protein. To feed the animals? All the by-catch and stuff from the ocean they make into pellets and stuff and they do same species feeding have you heard about that? The thing is that the simplified argument of if you're growing these crops to feed animals then if we eat them then we're going to be the same it's not really it doesn't really stack up. You agree it's inefficient to feed all this water and all this crops to animals yeah? You agree that it's inefficient? Yeah but what I'm trying to do How could it be sustainable for the planet if it's so inefficient? What do you mean by that? We're feeding all this food all this water just for a piece of steak We could eat that food ourselves I know but because if you were to the point being if you want to use Australia's land mass to only produce non-animal food it would struggle we can't Okay considering 30% of the world's fresh water is used for animal production and the amount of vegetable matter you can grow in land compared to meat is just astounding and I think this man here is just tripping over his facts here If you were to use there's an area in Victoria one of the most successful cattle stations and what they do is they use open pastures and they let the animals just ruminate and move about they require very little inputs You think you could feed the whole world on grass fed cattle? They need a lot of grass Yeah but you can't feed the whole world on meat tools and legumes and plant based proteins there's protein in rice, there's protein in wheat, there's protein in nowhere near these grains take nowhere near as much water even though the cow drinks but we're putting water into these grains and then we're feeding the cow the grains so there's more water How much money is there in rice production? Well there's enough Where is there in the world that you make enough money from the production of rice? So order for you to have sustainable lifestyle so that you're able to Well we won't need money if the planet doesn't exist We're using the resources Water is more important than money Correct, but where is there where you can make enough money off rice to sustain yourself and to own the land You can defend yourself against the approachment of cities industrialization Luckily we import and export as well and when animal products don't exist we import plant-based alternatives rice milk, soy milk, almond milk Soy milk is one of the greatest reasons soy is one of the biggest reasons why there's been so much land clearing in the Amazon Basin Because they're feeding that soy to animals They're feeding that soy to us No they're not, in the Amazon 91% of animals on the deforestation is to grow soybeans to feed to livestock That's where they're feeding the soybeans We don't need that much soy We need this much, cows need this much I think we're getting into an area where we could talk for a really really long time My only point was this is not common practice You'd have to provide evidence for that because we've got thousands and thousands of hours of footage of this exact thing happening across the world The thing is that right now I don't need to provide evidence We've got our evidence here this is happening in avatars everywhere I've been in the industry for a long time I'm not an advocate for the consumption of meat over all else I'm an advocate for sustainable solutions and most of demonstrations are not always the best way to communicate We've had a logical discussion here about sustainability But the first thing I said was this is not an example of normal practice This is not what happened They grind baby male chicks up in standard practice They kill baby calves in the dairy industry They bolt gun them in the head and slash their throat open When you show footage someone beating your cow It's blunt force trauma The thing is do you think that is a rational discussion point for what is actually happening We can say this is standard practice Is this an emotive piece of footage that can shock me without actually getting to the bottom which is a discussion around sustainability a discussion around ethics We're having that discussion now It's a great platform for that because then we can talk about it We can say well what does this mean This is what happens to cows in the dairy industry The only difference is that when you came out and spoke to me I said this is much standard practice and I know that it's not 100% is we've got lots of footage This becomes the rule This is the rule You have to show me I'm going to take my kids home but please it's not because I want to remove myself from this discussion A simple google search will show you what they guidelines are Let's have a look through here Animal welfare guidelines for the dairy farmers Australia Let's go down here 11 humane killing So here we go A person killing a calf by a blow to the forehead must ensure that the calf is less than 24 hours old and only use this method when no other humane killing methods are reasonably available So they're just giving these farmers permission to smash a baby calf to death in the head when they're less than 24 hours old Now this is blunt force trauma It can be a sledgehammer So if you were to not have the google and you were to have 25 years of working In a slaughterhouse I've been working in the food industry on multiple lenses I was one of the founders for the seaweed industry into Australia I've been working with a number of different sustainable platforms and my only point is that this is not standard practice this is what you do when you try to shut people in to create an emotive discussion and it shouldn't be an emotive discussion Well it is because it is an emotion if I sat here and killed a dog I don't feel emotional because they're real beings, they're living beings It's emotive because what you're doing is you're now talking about shooting a dog Because a dog is an animal like a cow is an animal I don't disagree with If you don't have emotions for animals Before I walk away so you don't think that I am trying to be antagonistic or detrimental to what it is that you're trying to say What I'm trying to say is that this is not standard practice and I know that I am supportive of sustainable and ethical solutions and my only point when I was talking to the boys was that someone beating a cow to death does not happen in every dairy farm and it does not happen in every slaughterhouse and I would question how many dairy farms have you been to How many dairy farms have you been to? I've been to a dairy farm All we need to know is that even in the most perfect dairy farm I'll let you speak Even in the most perfect dairy farm all the calves get taken from their mothers How is that ethical? How is that ethical? You talked about ethics How is that ethical to take a car away from its mother? I will let you finish with the last word Does that happen in Australia? How is that ethical? They all get taken Why would they leave a calf to drink the milk? Why would they leave a calf? How many examples of dairy farming outside of this context have you seen? I will challenge you to Google it Your favourite one I'm with my kids I'm not going to stand here and battle emotional semantics Your favourite dairy farm Where is it mate?