 Hey guys, welcome back to Comic Gain where all geek culture collides and if you're new to the channel make sure to leave a comment and let us know what you think. And please don't forget to smash that subscribe button so you can stay up to date on all things geek culture. Today on the show, John and I have the great pleasure of interviewing comic book writer Steve Orlando. Steve has been writing DC Comics Batman the Shadow six-part miniseries as of late which just released issue number four and is currently working on Dynamite Entertainment's version entitled The Shadow Batman which will also be a six-part miniseries due out in October of 2017. So what's this new series about? The world's greatest mystery. The world's greatest detective. They can barely stand each other. So how will they possibly deal with the world's greatest evil? What legacy can two of the world's most enduring icons of justice leave once they discover an ancient evil has been living inside the world they protect for centuries attached to its very heart? Can Batman and the Shadow save the world without killing it in the process? We'll find out a little bit more about this series from the writer himself Steve Orlando right now. Hi Steve, how are you doing? Hey, what's going on man? Alright, thank you for joining us on Comic Ed, man. I really appreciate it. Happy to. So you're doing, you're currently doing a DC's version of the Batman Shadow crossover right? Yes. And you're getting ready, you're starting to work on the Dynamite version of that too. Oh, I'm already deep in it man, I'm already deep in it. Right. Will Dynamite's series be a continuation of that or will it be its own thing entirely? It'll stand on its own, certainly, because we don't want people to feel like they have to pick up both, but at the same time there will be like thematic and character arc that you'll see that are certainly enlivened if you've read both. But each one has a complete story on its own, the sort of meta story of where these characters are going. We have something to say in each one, and then they say something greater together, but you don't need both. Okay, so like, they'll pretty much like complement each other though, right? Yeah, that's the basic thought. And it's not like for Dynamite's version, it's not like Batman and the Shadow are meeting each other again for the first time though, right? Absolutely not. Okay. Hi Steve, my name's John. Pleasure talking to you. So you've done Detective Comics Rebirth, Justice League of America Rebirth, Batman Beyond Number 12, Batman Night of the Monster Men. So you're pretty much the driving force behind the new take on Batman and DC Comics. How is that going to transfer over to the Dynamite universe? Well, don't tell Tom and Scott that, you know. I'm certainly the driving force behind Batman when he appears with the Shadow. Okay. Controversial opinion, but I'm sorry. How do I approach that with the Shadow and Dynamite? Is that the question? Right. Well, you know, the thing is, is like what we, the whole idea, I mean these books take place in the present and they take place in the current continuity. I shouldn't say current continuity, but the current sort of status quo of Batman. But the whole idea as well is to create books that speak about what these characters mean and why they're so special. So in relation to Dynamite, I mean we've got Batman. We're going to get everything we can out of him, you know, especially in relation to the other series. You're going to see characters you never saw in the other series. You're going to see settings you never saw in the other series. And you're going to see a world that has sort of been like happening on the fringe of Batman Shadow. And Shadow Batman opens it up even further. But it's just the idea where we want to craft and dynamite the iconic Batman that is still of the moment. You know, Robin Damian is in the book. We want to create these things that if you look at it and you squint, you can certainly see how they fit into the greater context of all these characters. At the same time, we want to, when it comes to Batman, and we're casting him against the Shadow to say something about him, we want to make sure that you have these two moments in each story, a strong statement about what the Shadow means, a strong statement about what Batman means, and the cool thing about the Shadow of Batman, especially in the dynamite book where we're living a little more in the Shadow's world, is that because of their both metatextual and their in-story relationship, you can really say things about those characters and you really couldn't pull out of them with any other pairing. You know, Shadow has a relationship with Batman that is totally unlike that of Dick Grayson, that's unlike that of Gordon, that's unlike that of Superman's. And what he represents is this force that forces Batman to look within himself and evaluate himself because he is that thing that Batman cannot ever know. And for him, that's, in many ways, in that he symbolizes Batman's mortality. So we have this character that is the living memento mori to Batman, who symbolizes the best of us. He's in many ways what we can achieve is people. You just have to get in there and say something with him that is totally unique and it's an opportunity to do that. Okay, as I said, you have a character in the Shadow that really is the one person that is a check on what Batman has, intellectually at least, because for the world's greatest detective, someone who is inherently unknowable is problematic from the start and his story goes on potentially infuriating, but he also might know the things about Batman that no one else does, that Bruce has to know. Right. And it's interesting that you say Damien is going to be in this book too, because it's kind of going to be interesting to see how Damien interacts with the Shadow since the Shadow is more or less kind of an adult version of Damien. I could see the Shadow being trained that way. Or maybe the Shadow training ratio. Yeah, that would be better. But not as old as Immortals Go. That's true. I think the Shadow might be older. So is that like a little hint of things to come with this new series? It's a hint of things to come in relation to the Damien-Shadow relationship, because they are, they have a lot in common. And their differences obviously come to light in the book as well, but in many ways, you know, Shadow looks at Damien, who is a little more utilitarian, who is a little less nostalgic. And, you know, only in the relative recent times has given up killing and all these things. And Shadow sees someone who has made me more like he wishes Bruce could have been. But at the same time, I mean, is unruly, he's out of, you know, he makes, he makes rash decisions. So there's still something for the Shadow to hone within Robin. And I think the, at first, I'm sure he thinks that Damien is in many ways a better version of Batman. But as the story goes on, you know, none of the characters are perfect. And the whole idea of this series and of the greater two-part series is that, you know, all of these characters are imperfect by definition. And it's only through working with each other that they can get the best out of each other. There is a generational aspect to these guys that I think is really, really cool. You know, we like to say, people will always say that Batman is the real face and Bruce Wayne is just a mask. I would even posit if that's true, then at least within these stories, Shadow is the grandfather, Batman is the father, and Damien is the... and Robin is the grandson. That makes a lot of sense, especially given what you guys have revealed in DC's version of the Shadow Batman crossover. Really loving those stories, by the way. Yeah, thank you, man. Riley and Scott have been outstanding. I'm trying not to say too much, since John hasn't had a chance to read it yet. I understand, because I'm a huge Shadow fan. But since you're part of Batman DC Rebirth creative team, as well as both DC's Batman and the Shadow, and Dynamite's the Shadow Batman, should we consider these stories in canon for Batman, or should we consider them similar to the way DC and Image handled Batman's spawn in the 90s? I can't speak to DC and Image handled Batman's spawn, but I would say sort of what I said earlier. We want to create something where, you know, we're not making... we can't, you know, for boring legal reasons and ownership reasons. We can't make a definitive statement, you know, because obviously to one company owns the Shadow, one company owns Batman. So, you know, no other book could refer to things that are known by DC and vice versa, what these things are over. But because of the rich history of these characters and sort of what they represent in superhero fiction and pop fiction, our hope is that, again, we're crafting something that sort of sums up the essence of the Shadow. And what that really means in relation to the question of continuity is, it could easily all be in continuity. And at the same time, just like a lot of the things about the Shadow, it could easily all be alive. And I think there's a beautiful character in relation to that, because that is his essence, you know. He is the essence of mystery. So, we want to create something that makes a statement and easily could posit a potential secret history for these characters. Well, at the same time, you will never know, because to not know and to be unknowable, that is the Shadow at his core. So that kind of answers my question. Without revealing too much for John Sake and for other listeners who haven't had a chance to read the DC version of the crossover, there were a lot of revelations in the first two or three issues involving the Shadow and Batman's history and everything. So, I understand you can't really go into specifics and say, no, this is exactly continuity or not, but it does leave us fans really curious to that fact. Is there anything you can help us to say to us, other than what you have said, to kind of ease our minds at that intertwining history aspect of, you know, without revealing too much for the fans? No, and honestly, there will be nothing else, because that is the Shadow. I mean, you may want to know more, but in the same way Bruce wants to know more about the Shadow and he simply cannot know. So to be honest with you, there will be no further clarification outside of what you see in the six issues, because that struggle, in many ways, people yearning for greater information, that's the same yearning Batman has within the book. That is the essence of knowing the Shadow and coming face to face with the Shadow. So what you see in the book is what you'll have and beyond that, to ponder that and to try to uncover what the truth is, that is the experience of knowing him and so that is definitely where we want to leave it, on purpose in many ways. Okay, so you've worked on 13 episodes of the Mighty Mobile Power Rangers. I've had issues. Sorry, I've been watching a lot of Power Rangers. You've worked on 13 issues of Mighty Mobile Power Rangers from film studios. What hand did you have exactly in helping to create such an awesome series? And I am really loving it, by the way. And how involved were you in the creation of Lord Durant? Well, to be honest, I was not involved at all because I worked on the Balkan skull backup stories and into those issues. So when the book came together, I had almost as a lark just said, you guys should really do like an Archie style Balkan skull book and they actually said that's a great idea. So the whole, I mean, the best idea was knowing, other than knowing what was going to happen with Dracon, knowing that the main series was going to be pretty serious and go in some directions, we wanted to do this sort of more lighthearted back and material to balance that out. So in relation to Lord Durant, other than providing a pallet cleansing, sort of unquestionably lighter hearted balance to that, not any direct connection to that. But from the start, we knew that we wanted to create these small Balkan skull adventures to give people a step away from the heavier, sort of heavier story that Kyle and Henry had been doing in the main series, just like how you would cut away to their sort of more misadventures within the book itself. So we were part of the book from the outset, working with Corinne Howell on it, just having that sort of more sprightly, energetic style, always been a part of it versus this leaker style of the main book. But sort of creating those two pages as something that could just be like a little nice cleansing note at the end, a light note at the end to go against what was going on in the main series. Now I watched another interview you did earlier in the year for a podcast where they asked you kind of a similar question to what I'm getting ready to ask you. So I've got to kind of change this question up a little bit. Excluding Batman, Supergirl, Midnighter, and the Shadow, which I know is your all-time favorite comic book character. Who is your favorite comic book character? And if given the chance, which title would you love to write for? Oh, well, essentially easy, because there was a major exclusion because I've never worked on him before. At least I haven't that type of. My favorite comic character is easily Martian Manhunter, without question. And then in the time, since whenever I gave that interview, I was looking up to work on him in the Marvel and Martian Martian Manhunter crossover that we did with Frank Barbarian and Aaron LaPresti. But I love John Jones. I love sort of everything he's about and sort of in my opinion, the greater tragedy of his origin versus other characters that have similar origins in being a parent and sort of leaving those things behind on Mars that I think is even greater than what Supergirl went through, being a teenager and leaving people behind on a krypton and even greater than what Superman went through, being a baby and not really knowing anything in a tangible way, but knowing that something was there and that it was not there. I love the tragedy of Martian Manhunter. I love the power and I love the elegance of him. Favorite character would write a book for him in a second. Here's the next question for you. If you could work with any artist living or dead on a specific title, which artist would you like it to be and on which title? Oh man, that is challenging. Well, I'd love to work. I'd love to do a shadow book with Kevin Nolan and he's alive. Just because he's one of my favorite artists that I'd get to work with. But if we're going like the world, the realm of the impossible, I would love to do a flex mentality comic with Seth Fisher, who was barely an acquaintance of mine because I was quite young, but a great comic artist from the early 2000s that unfortunately passed away in the early 2000s. Amazing, amazing artist. He did Flash, OGN, Green Lantern, Willoworld, Batman, Snow, and Legends of the Dark Knight. Would love to work on Flex, but honestly wish I could have a chance to work on any character with Seth because he was, if you look up his stuff, an amazing, amazing talent and something that was really lost when he went away. Yeah, he was very good. Okay, we dove into the whole revelations made in the Batman Shadow series. For DC, will we see more revelations like what we saw in DC's Batman Shadow series in this new series, such as the revelation of being some of Bruce's old mentors, or are you completely steering clear of that aspect for this new series? Well, there are different questions that were asked in Shadow of Batman. Well, Batman Shadow 6 is not yet, but the end of the first story does leave the Shadow in probably the lowest place he's been since he decided he was going to try to excuse me, make amends however long ago it was that he decided that. And a lot of the story of Shadow of Batman sort of revolves around this idea. It's an answer to a lot of the questions and challenges the characters give themselves at the end of Batman Shadow. And in the case of Shadow, he's faced with a foe that in many ways is a better version of him, in many ways is a more proficient and successful version of the Shadow. And it forces him to look at himself and think about finally not what he knows, but what he doesn't know, or what he's been afraid to know for his entire life. And that question of who the Shadow is, I mean, and this is more, you know, we've asked who is the Shadow and this arc, we're talking about the man behind the mask. But as of the end of the first story, the first miniseries, he's forced to really ask what the Shadow means at its core level, which is one of the main sort of lifeblood questions of Shadow Batman. You know, he has long thought of it as a punishment for himself, a curse. You know, he does not think he's a good man. But the question of if that's true and what the Shadow really means, I would say is the biggest question of Shadow Batman. Okay, so it's clear that Dynamite doesn't really focus on continuity as much as say Marvel and DC. And you mentioned in The Fueled by Death cast, number 16 episode that I watched the other day, that you prefer to build on what's come before. Is it more difficult for you creating an origin, an original story for a character like Shadow where continuity isn't a big deal? Well, no, because in many ways for me, like when I write him, all those certain things happen. You know, it's sort of like there was a period where I was really hoping to work on a Tarzan book. And what I wanted to do was move it into the present day and say that, you know, he disappeared in 1963 or whenever the final actual Tarzan novel was published. And then had that period of time in between where he was gone so that we could say that, you know, in theory, all these Tarzan stories happen. You know, in the same way that Grant, when he was on Batman said, you know, all these Batman stories happen. Even the crazy ones even the 1960s ones where he got turned into a zebra happened. And so it's not, you know, it's actually not that much different when there's loose continuity because I sort of force it upon myself anyway. You know, like, especially with a character like the Shadow who has sort of supernatural abilities and mystery as power in my mind, maybe all those stories happen. You know, when you see his origin splash in issue two, you know, we've got flashes of him from the Chakinron. We've got flashes of him from the Baldwin movie. We have flashes of him from an Orson Welles played him, you know, along with the Mike Caruto series. In my mind, you know, potentially when I write him, all those things are part of his past. So it's an exciting moment because yeah, if I want to, I can bend the rules a little more. But at the same time, like in my mind, at least I'm still just enriching all those things that came. And much like we're talking about continuity of the both series, you can look at it and say that it's different from those stories in a connected or like we won't contradict them. So that if you want to look at it and say, man, this is all one giant story to me, you could easily do that as well. And that's what I mean, that's what it's exciting to me to do is to say that this is the culmination of this character that has that has arrived after got almost 80 years of being out there. How did that approach you about writing the Shadow Batman series was because of your work on DC's version of the story? Yeah, I mean, I think that that's really helped. I mean, Batman Shadow has been a super, super exciting book to work on. You know, Scott and Riley are making me look great. Riley is doing the work of his career. I think he's getting the best work out of me that I've done in a long time. And it is, I think it was natural when they realized they were going to do a sequel to potentially reach out to me because I made no secret over the fact that I am a huge just an insane fan of the Shadow and sort of what he represents. So, especially because I've been wanting to work with Dynamite for a while, as I said, that it appeared where I was really thinking about doing Tarzan. Maybe some great stuff right now. Yeah. You know, but it was just like, it was a perfect moment, you know, you know, to talk to them and say, oh, like, would you like to come back? Well, I would come back every time for the Shadow as many times as they ask. And I think on some level they knew that, so I was excited to make it work. That's kind of like me with the Phantom. You know, I would love to see a Phantom Shadow crossover. That's kind of the kind of thing. Yeah. I think that would be a comic book nerd's dream come true right there. I really like the Phantom as well. So I would hope that I'll get to work on him someday. I actually just found out upon meeting some friends at San Diego Comic-Con that the Phantom is the number one character in our series. No, he's Dynamite. Maybe we can get a Mask 3 and get to be part of that. Well, it's kind of a theory area with the King Features characters, because even though they're Dynamite, the King Features still have their own kind of separate universe inside the Dynamite universe. Are there any characters you feel have been misinterpreted today? Or are there any you would change? I mean, that's a sticky area. I'm not here to slag other creators. Man, I don't really know how to answer that. That's right. I thought I'd throw in there. Well, let me put it this way. If I wrote the Phantom, he would not look like Billy Dane and he would not be fighting free characters. I mean, I don't know. He would not look like Billy Dane and he would not be fighting free Williams and would probably not have a bunch of mansor. So we can talk about it that way then. I love the Phantom, but I think he's problematic in many ways. Yeah, I would like to see some of these older pulp heroes fight more than just their arch enemies. The Phantom has the same brotherhood. The Shadow has Siwan Khan. That seems to be in all the comics. The Shadow now, you had the Shadow versus Siwan Khan for the umpteenth millionth time. I'd like to see some of the other villains get a little bit more of a spotlight in the book. Well, it's one of the reasons we created the Stag for Batman Shadow is because we didn't want to go immediately to Khan. And also, we stormed it with a way, excuse me, to not make Khan problematic. I love John Lone, but Khan was a tough character in many ways. I think a lot of those pulp characters, it's an interesting dancing between the raindrops. I mean, even a character like Tarzan, with these characters, you have to find a way to bring forth what's great and unique about them, but also strip them of some of the colonialism that was not even hidden in their creation. I mean, I'm not shit-talking Edgar Rice Burroughs to say that he hated English people and was pretty racist. I mean, in Tarzan itself, there's the original book. There's a scene where someone insults Jane and her fiancee is English. Someone insults Jane and her fiancee does nothing. And Jane says to him, you know, I wish I were a man so that I could respond appropriately to an insult like that. And then the book says, being English, Jane's fiancee had no idea what a man's response would be. So, I mean, his prejudices are not hidden. So, like, when you do these characters, you want to find a way, like, if I invite more people in and show people why they're wonderful and sort of polish up and change, or I would say, refashion at the least, some of the things that have not aged immediately well. So, yeah, I mean, I think that there are things like that in a lot of characters from the 30s and 40s. I mean, God, yeah, I mean, and it's, but it can be done. In the case of the shadow, yeah, like, as I said, it's one of the reasons we wanted to do this thing where everybody expects Khan and he is an iconic villain, but you want to spread this, spread it out a little bit. You want to explore other things. I mean, in the same relation to Batman's films, it's why Magpie and, like, Hellhound and things appear in Batman's shadow. Like, there's so many great eclectic villains for these characters. And it's interesting to cast in that a little wider. But, yeah, I mean, I think that that's a good way to answer that question. I don't really want to, you know, derive the work of other creators or my contemporaries. You know, there are always things that are differently that I would do differently to say the least. You know, hopefully I'll be able to get a chance to get in there and do that with these characters. You know, like, although I'll give a controversial opinion, though they are two of my favorite characters and one of whom I've already mentioned, one thing I would change about Colossus and Martian Manhunter is I would give them both pants. Because, you know, we don't think anything of it. I mean, I loved Martian. I loved John's Brightest Day redesign, because it was basically classic, but he had pants. And, like, the thing about it is, if your eyes are tricking, it's not realizing he's basically wearing a stripper outfit. And the same is true about Colossus with the original Cochrane design. Like, when he has flesh color, he looks like a professional. He looks like an exotic dancer. And Dave Cochrane knew this, actually, because when he, because he has, he had open thighs when he had metal body, but when he went back to human form, mysteriously blue pants appeared. So he was very aware of what that looked like. So I guess, yes, I would change those things about those characters. All right, so my next question here. First off, I'm holding an issue of Batman, issue 253, which was the first, I believe the first meeting between Batman and the Shadow ever. I also had, now this was served as, this served as an introduction to the Shadow series in DC Comics. So this was one of my favorite comics growing up. What comics did you like to read growing up? Well, I mean, I, my first books were like books that I bought in the 80s at Flea Markets. So there was a lot of, a lot of quarter of it stuff. I mean, the first book I ever bought was West Coast Avengers number 16, a tale of two kitties that had Hellcap and Tigra in it, along with like red jumpsuit, Hank Pym. But as things sort of went on, it's interesting because the books I bought were all newsstand books. And every time I dropped into comics until I dropped it in state, it was all during periods of extreme unrest. Like when I was younger, the first Spider-Man comic I ever bought brand new was part of the Clone Saga. And it was the episode where Scarlett Spider invents Impact Webbing. And then I took her a couple of years off and then I bought like the first Electric Blue Superman issue of Action Comics. And I was just like really into all the sort of strangeness of it. But it's funny because all those things are controversial to say the least now and in many ways it's shocking that I'm still in comics when those were my entry points. I loved West Coast Avengers. I mean, I loved JLA, straight on, like Just League, Europe, Just League International from the 80s. I think those books being a part of the part of my life and they are why I sort of love these obscure and second and third and fourth and 17th tier characters. Along with saying that my father was sports memorabilia salesman and I hate sports, so I would often buy non-sport cards. One of my first introductions to a lot of comic book concepts came actually from these non-sports trading card series. Things like the Golden, Silver and Bronze Age, Green Lanterns for example, like DC Super teams which actually had them, Vertigo, Triptych. I kind of knew who these characters were without having any context for them when I was very, very young because I would collect all these series. There's a little bit of info in the back about who they are and like I've no idea what it means yet but it was enough to get me to go and read on and find the books that are connected to them. That's actually from the real first connection I had to these characters is through these, excuse me, through trading cards. It's actually interesting you say that because I was introduced to comics almost the exact same way. I mean I was familiar with them through the cartoons in the 80s but with like the Flare and Flare Ultra cards along with the Spider-Man cards and Superman, Electric Blue and the Clone Saga. That's pretty much what got me into comics hardcore. So it's really interesting you say that because now you look back on it today and there's so much so many people hated the Clone Saga because it was just some cluster because of so many different writers coming on and off of it and everything and then the Electric Blue Superman is so controversial because it took away what Superman was known for and gave him completely different powers but I actually enjoyed that. It changed things up. It wasn't the same stories to rehashed all the time. Who were some of your biggest influences in the comic book industry and who were your biggest influences on a personal level? I mean within comics I real, I mean like there's no question like I grew up reading Grant Morrison, Warren Ellis books and you know that sort of has always been my sort of north star when it comes to characterization and style and just doing the biggest wildest stories I possibly can that are sort of extrapolated from new innovations in the real world but at the same time like outside who are my, who are personal influences like in my life right. I don't know. People who are way more impressive than comics creators you know like you know it's weird because I don't I don't you end up meeting like a lot of weird people in green rooms when you do when you work in comics like I've I've like stood in line for a vegan rap with the many people who are like red shirt number five and still and still trying to be someone and like you know I tried to everyone just like people you know because we're all just people doing a job but so I don't know like I met like John Lewis and an Amtrak station like I've never met anyone in comics like there's people I respect immensely but I've never become overwhelmed by meeting anyone even if they're like influences on my work you know but then again I'm thinking about it and as I said like I met John Lewis and like could not even like speak to him like I couldn't even come up with something that wouldn't sound they couldn't even put into words the weight of what that man has done and this is someone you know I will meet you know I'll meet pro wrestlers and walk away with their phone number I don't really care often who you are but it was extremely moving to me you know and to think like those are the people that actually inspire me like I love what comics represent and these sort of worlds of good and evil and how it can inspire people to be better but then they're the people that are turning our world into that you know and living that day after day and like the sort of weight of meeting someone like that to think like I'm sitting like whatever stupid in the grand scheme comic meeting or business meeting I had in New York and I'm sitting in the Amtrak station and here is a guy who I now have a one-to-one connection with Martin with their King Junior with so new people who we deify in history and it was just so enormous and so like I don't know those are the people in many ways that I look up to and the same goes for people who've done both like it's a cop out answer but it's a real answer and I wrote about it in the latest issue of the commanding challenge like you know people like Jack Kirby and it's his 100th birthday this year people I've never met but I know talk the talk and walk the walk you know Kirby obviously created half of the worlds that we live in when we open comics these days but here's also a guy who was at Normandy fighting real evil and came home unswayed you know and decided to continue working and doing more to inspire people like that's just so moving to me to hear about people who continued the fight every day you know like I read these stories about how people like fascist would visit the Marvel offices and be like you know where's that guy that does the Captain America comics and you know Kirby would just say well guess time to do it again and like roll up his sleeves and walk down stairs to kick some ass and it's just like those are the people that actually inspire me because we it's one thing to create these wish fulfillment stories and fictional worlds and have these fictional resuits and they are important and they move people but there are people who are heroes in everyday life and there are a lot of them and there's the people that really inspire me I don't know like I thought I had people that I looked up to but this thing with meeting John Lewis was like a month and a half ago for me and I've really never been moved like that in my life in any way like I met President Clinton when I was in college all these things and never have I met someone until then where I like was sitting on the train after and like I just felt like I'd done nothing you know like I was just overwhelmed with how much this person had done and is still doing it at his age and I really just felt like I'd done nothing and that's aspirational to me I said I gotta keep going I have to do more I have to do more and more because like I can do more so I don't know or I'm unwavering like that that have lived this fight for goodness their whole life, the real people those are the people that actually inspired me I suppose Well I also have this awesome I gotta follow that up with this question really how would you go about bringing together say the shadow with the phantom and the rocketeer in a story of giving the chance Oh well man, rocketeer's such a good costumes Well, the odd one out is the phantom in many ways, and I have to think about that, because to me, like, the Rocketeer is all about discovery. So he is, in many ways, the way that Batman is a good thematic counterpoint to the shadow. Batman, as by definition, asks questions in the shadow, by definition, does not give answers. Rocketeer is, you know, symbolizes freedom and exploration. So I do think that those two characters and their points of view are perfect ideological counterpoints and be very, very exciting because, and I think Cliff Secord is a little more idealistic and a little more carefree than Bruce. So in the way that Bruce is unnerved by not knowing the shadow, I think in the Rocketeer you'd have someone that's just like, not only do I not know, but I don't care. You know, like, go be, you know, go be morbid over there because there's better things to do and there's a better way to do these things. So I find that interaction could be really, really cool. The phantom is interesting. I think he splits the difference, right? Because he's, he is a lot about obligation in the way that the shadow is, but at the same time he is more adjusted than the shadow. He's had a normal human life, I mean, obviously, generally, if he didn't keep having normal human relationships and making more little phantoms, there'd be no more phantom. So like, he finds a way to blend that sort of massive obligation of history and legacy with relatively normal human things. I think that's pretty interesting. How would you bring them together? I mean, you need a new villain, right? Because you need to have, much like with the shadow, you need to have something that mirrors at least facets of all three of those characters and they're so diverse. You know, in my mind you have to, you have to create something new. You have to create that perfect reflection of them that can make them question, somehow, you know, is a prism as a character that makes all three of those people even though they're quite different questions who they are. And that maybe perhaps isn't the most in-depth answer as much as saying like, well, you would use more of your already, but that is sort of how I think about things. Maybe you could, maybe you could kind of go to Dynamite or some of these other companies and kind of tell them a story about how you would bring these three together and maybe we could actually get it to happen. I think that'd be really cool. I haven't seen anything really like that in comics before with three such completely opposite characters. I think that'd be amazing. I think you'd be the person to do that with your knowledge of the shadow and how you talk about the phantom and the rocketeer. I think you'd be the person to, you know, create that story, honestly. I mean, I would like to do it. It's interesting. Like, I do like... Have you guys ever... Do you guys know about Philip Jose Farmer? No. Well, he's a weird dude. He created the world Newton universe and it was... I mean, it's sort of like a dirty, negative extraordinary gentleman. Like, he created pseudo versions of a lot of punk characters and then wanted to say and spend these stories about how they were all interrelated. But at the same time, he was like really into examining sex and masculinity. So he wrote this book called... I mean, in that universe, he had like Doc Savage and he had Doc Savage as characters and Tarzan type characters and all these things. It's kind of like planetary, but in the 1930s and books instead of comics. And the... I'm just thinking about like retcons that happened in these stories and how absurd they get. And he wrote this book called A Feast Unknown. And you know, before I go into the stories, they're an age rating on this podcast. No. Good, because this is going to get real real. So A Feast Unknown is an actual book that he wrote that is in many ways his best or worst book and it's the only one I tell people that they should read if they think it's funny. And it's a book where he reveals that Doc Savage and Tarzan are both the illegitimate children of Jack the Ripper. And because why not? And because of this, they can only read to Rausel in periods of extreme brutality. And so like a lot of the book is like Doc Savage blows up a bunch of pirates and then immediately ejaculates. And it culminates, not even done. And they're like, they're all hundreds of years old and you find out that they are every 100 years or whatever, 50 years, they have to go to this place like in the jungle, quote. And at this point, they cut out one of their testicles, sacrificed it to some god, and then they get like another 10 years of immortality somehow. And the whole book culminates in them literally jousting with their own erections. Wouldn't you say it's like right out of testicles? No, it re-grows. It is an absurd, absurd book, but I'm just thinking of like whatever reason to pop into my mind like, how could you blend the worlds of phantom and shadow and rocketeer and I was like, well, I know how not to do it. Yeah, hopefully not with sacrifice and testicles. And this is it. Like, I don't know, like part of me wants to adapt that books some day as some sort of like extreme Bauhaus bars, maybe under a pseudonym. But now you guys will know it's me if I do it, so. Okay, so in a previous interview, I heard that you'd like to bring back Miss Fury and write her stories. Do you think Dynamite series did her justice and do you consider her a catwoman rip-off, since she did come out a few years after Catwoman? And did you enjoy the death-defying Daredevil story arc in Project Superpowers, and the big twist the writers put into that? Well, I should say I thought that someone, I think that Miss Fury should be brought back and celebrated as one of the first comic heroines created by a female comic creator. In that same breath, I don't think that I'm the one to do it because, you know, I'm not a woman and I would like to see that, I would like to see that legacy of Tarpy Mills be continued in that way. But I do wish it would happen, and I do think that it's something I wish more people knew about and was celebrated more because it's just so special. And I try to talk about her all the time. I think that any series that is going to put these characters in the forefront and we showcase them, this question of did they do them justice? Like, again, people worked immensely hard on those books and I don't like to talk about other creators. But I am really, really excited that people would want to feature them and give them a showcase again. And I hope that they continue to have really sort of great pedestals and even more notoriety of characters like Daredevil, characters like the Death Defined Devil, Daredevil, and characters like Miss Fury. I didn't mind the Death Defined Devil revelation, as you said, in Project Super Powers. But I'm just so happy whenever these characters appear. I loved his appearances in Savage Dragon, which were totally, totally different. I don't necessarily subscribe as a creator and even as a reader to this idea of, as long as the core of the character is true, I don't really subscribe to these oh, right and wrong interpretations of the character. Because, I mean, look how many, look how malleable Batman is. Look how many different things Batman could be while still being Batman. You know, from the guy running with the bomb-labeled bomb to, like, Swear to Me in 50 years. And it's all still Batman. So I celebrate any interpretation of these characters as long as they understand the core. And as for her being a real buff of Catwoman, I don't really think so. I think she's progressed in a different sort of direction. And obviously, Catwoman has progressed in a different sort of direction. So at the time, you know, you can't deny that, you know, maybe there's a correlation there. But obviously, there's a correlation even from a legal sense between Captain Marvel and Superman. And those characters are still involved into immensely different characters. The only reason I asked that was I'm just getting into dynamite. For the past few months, I just started getting into the old ball pyros. I've liked the shadow ever since the Alec Baldwin movie came out and the Phantom with the Billy Zane movie. But I just got introduced to Miss Fury through masks, which I thought was really good. It made me want to do more research on the character and all the other characters involved in the situation. And I thought maybe since, you know, I'm more familiar with her than I am. I thought maybe you could shed a little bit more light on that. That's the only reason I asked those questions. What about a Shadow Green Hornet crossover? That's been done. With dark nights. Which I've just been assuring. Because I'm also a big Green Hornet fan. So anytime I could throw a Green Hornet in the mix. I mean, I love that the Green Hornet is a lone ranger. What is he grandson? A nephew. I mean, I love revelations like that. Anytime you can sort of enrich things. Like I like the idea, like Timmy Redcon always seems to have like a negative connotation for an upper reason. But if you can enrich the story by adding connections, I love that stuff. You know, and sometimes it's the easiest, most elegant thing. Like Airway, for example, is also named Hal Jordan. And by complete happenstance. And it was such a clean thing to say, well, he's Hal Jordan's cousin. And they're both named after the same person. You know, Green Lantern Hal Jordan. I'm sorry, their names are both Hal Jordan. So I wasn't clear. Who are you talking about, guys? We're big Green Lantern fans. Yeah. But, you know, in the same way, I thought it was very elegant how Jeff explained they're being too Wally West. Now, honestly, it was the same explanation. But it's very, I just mugged towards the computer and he didn't see me when I said that, which was absurd. But as if he's, like, in the room. But, I mean, I think that I don't think the definitive outside of the core stories, I don't think the definitive mystery story has been told. And I talk about her a lot, but all I will say is that I would be really excited. And I keep pushing for it to be told and for her to get the sort of re welcoming into into the greater comics world that she deserves. So I hope it is, I'll do everything I can if people ask me to sort of spread the word and help. Because, you know, we, as an industry, we have to acknowledge our past and celebrate our past and Ms. Mills is an important part of that and I wish more people, I always get excited when people talk about it. So that's really what I'm doing, like when we have history, we shouldn't keep it hidden and I feel really passionate about that. We do everything we can to promote lesser known comic book characters, lesser known publishers and just forgotten heroes on our YouTube channel. So it's great to find a writer who enjoys doing the same thing that we do. Because you see all these other YouTube channels and everything that are, they promote the big two Marvel and DC which we're not afraid to do. They promote Batman, they promote Spider-Man and all that, but they leave out the most important heroes, the ones that really got things going. There wouldn't, there would be no Batman without the Shadow, without the Phantom, without the Black Bat. So that's really what we like to push. Without Bill Tinger as well. Exactly. Have you thought about adding the Scarecrow into this Batman Shadow crossover at all? Because I would really be interested to see how the Shadow would take to the Scarecrow. I would be interested to see how the Shadow would, the Scarecrow would take to the Shadow. Who would scare Bruce? Well, he did appear in four not as like a, you know, a focused player, but it would be interesting to explore that further. I mean, that's actually, I mean they do have a really great sort of psychological aspects that you could explore between Shadow and Scarecrow. So the, it eventually pops up again. There are, as I said, we are going into some new places with the Shadow Batman, but it's a great point and there is a lot to dig out between those two characters. So hopefully we get a chance. Okay, now this Dynamite version, is it just a miniseries or is it going to be an ongoing thing? Whoever runs the Dynamite Comics Twitter page wasn't really specific on that part. He just said, yes, it wasn't really, is it just a miniseries like with DC's version or is it just going to be an ongoing monthly? I think it's a miniseries. I don't know if I was supposed to tell you that if they're being mysterious about it, but no, it's a miniseries. I mean, I try to do things that have, when you have a statement to make, you want to make sure you can make them and do it succinctly and have a beginning, middle, and end. That's pretty awesome. So we're going to have a full 12 issues total. Is that an answer? Yeah, between DC and Dynamite. And God help whatever lawyer has to figure out if they ever get collected in one book. Is there anything you want to add before we close out this interview, John? Thanks for allowing us to interview and take some of your time here. It's been an amazing hour, almost. Yeah, just about an hour. I bet it went in directions that you probably didn't think it was going to go in. I will go to bed with my testicles covered tonight. So again, thank you. Thanks for letting us take up some of your time. Do you have any comments coming up this year? Yeah, I'll be at FlamieCon in Brooklyn in August. I'll be at New York Comic Con in September. And then I'll be at New York Comic Con whenever New York Comic Con is. October? I think it's in October. Do you know if you'll be attending C2E2 next year? Oh, next year? I do not know. I don't know yet. I love going to C2E2. It was the first time I'd gone in 17 years to Chicago for any reason. I liked it. So I don't know if I'll be back yet. I try to not do, except for the big two, I try to do different shows every year. But I did really enjoy it. So nothing is off the table right yet. I'm going to try to go to C2E2 next year. Is there anything you'd like to say to your fans, to the fans of yours personally or Batman in the Shadow in general? Maybe hint at things to come a little bit more? Sure. Like I said, in regards to Batman in Shadow, things are just going to keep getting bigger and bigger. And the scope, we are incredibly lucky that DC and Conde Nast have let us tell a story of the scope that we are in Batman in Shadow within repercussions it has for the characters, at least within the confines of the story itself. And then to be able to pick up the pieces and leave them in Shadow Batman and show the growth from this point that we leave them at. That in many ways is like, you know, Batman Shadow in many ways ends at the Empire Strikes Back moment for these characters. And to be able to return and now that we've scattered the pieces on the board, build them back up and finally potentially make a final statement for all these characters. And not just for Shadow in Batman, but for the concept of crime-fighting, the concept of heroic legacy itself is an amazing, amazing opportunity. And where we push the characters to the limit in Batman Shadow and Shadow Batman we show characters that are probably thought that they're sort of at the top of their world that there's a greater world around them. And if Shadow Batman, Batman Shadow is about them facing that inequality in regards to themselves, Shadow Batman is about them facing that in regards to the greater world around them. They're fighting villains that have been making moves in centuries of Batman and the Shadow have been making moves in weeks and days and it's really going to be a challenge to force them to do things differently, change who and how they do things and I couldn't be more excited about it. And at the same time, Robin, working with Giovanni Tempano, it is going to be a classic, beautifully illustrated Shadow story, classic, beautifully illustrated Batman story. It's going to be really, really amazing. Nice. Again, thank you for your time. We'll let you go off and enjoy the rest of your evening and enjoy the conventions you have coming up. And have a safe trip. You said that you were getting ready to head back out on another trip here soon. I will. I'll be on a plane tomorrow but I'll be right in comics. We'll keep moving, promise. Alright, well thanks a lot. Thank you. Alright, thank you guys. We'll talk to you folks soon. Thank you.