 My name is Monique Elliott from Schneider Electric, and it is my pleasure to welcome you to the third day of the IEA conference on energy efficiency. This morning Jean Pascal Truquois, chairman of Schneider Electric, will begin our program with opening remarks reflecting on the private and public exchanges from the last day. We will welcome to the stage VJ Vathiswaran, global energy and climate innovation editor from the Economist, to moderate a panel discussion on sustainability and energy, the essential partnership for net zero. Joining us for the discussion will be Keske Sadamori, energy markets and security director for the IEA, Christelle Eidemann, CEO of Orange, and Peter Herrick, CEO of Schneider Electric. We hope you enjoy this morning's plenary session, and with that I turn the floor over to Jean Pascal. Good morning all. This is the third day of the conference, and I hope you are all in good shape. We are live streaming on the IEA site, so what we are doing here is shared on a much larger scale outside of this room. Look, I went through the whole day yesterday, and I like every day to kind of keep the memory of something, a line, that has been the major thread of the day. And if I summarize what I heard yesterday, I would say two points. I think everybody agrees that energy efficiency is the priority, and that we have technologies and the capabilities to push it to a new scale. And at the same time, it was said several times on stage, it's not a question of choice, we have to do energy efficiency plus renewable, it's not a war, it's an end of many actions that go together. So yesterday while the panels were happening in this room, there were a certain number of you, on many of you, and I want to thank you all for participating. We are taking part in workshops. On the main topic of the workshop was how can we unleash to a new scale on a new speed energy efficiency everywhere we operate. And there was one workshop about industry and one workshop about buildings. And I have to say, and again, many thanks for those who participated. It was very engaged, very active, and very pragmatic. Government, representatives, company leaders, all together on formulating propositions. So yesterday I sort of hinted at the end of the last panel what were the conclusions we worked during the night on it. And we've come up with the 10 for 10x. So 10 priorities. And it's not me speaking that's you speaking on all the people who participated. So let's go one by one. The first one that was really coming from everywhere. And I have to also start by saying that somewhere the conclusions or the priorities were pretty similar regarding industry on the building space, which means that there are things which are recurrent or transversal to all the sectors. First point was really measure the need to measure on the agnours. When we go into energy efficiency, very often today the approaches are on the engagement of means, the things which are put in place. It's like if you would say we want to improve a car, but there is no speed meter. We say, okay, we improve the engine, we improve the tires, but we don't look at the efficiency of the car per mile. And it seems quite surprising, but today we have that in the car for a long time. I think most of us know the efficiency per mileage of our car. We don't have that for our home on our building. Well, we can do it very easily and for a very cheap, in a very cheap manner. So digitized consumption, connect, report on apps so that people can get educated and understand what they do, and go from engagement of levers to outcome-based incentives, based on the result you get or not what you do to improve. Second point, which was obvious everywhere, I want to do, but I don't know. So awareness and knowledge on here is pretty simple. It's about sharing. Sharing practical examples. There was a good example in Ireland of the one-stop shop where people can go for their home and get a very, I would say, objective description of what can be done. And what has been done by the way, for instance, the lighthouse examples in manufacturing, where people somewhere compete to be recognized as the most net zero building or net zero factory. Then a very recurrent subject not to be underestimated is skills. When we speak about retrofitting, we are addressing all buildings, we are addressing all plants. And while we speak about new construction, we are addressing only a fraction, a very tiny fraction of what is existing. So the scale of resources to be mobilized is completely different. And then the nature of skills is very different. An electrician has to become a little bit thermitians when they go into energy efficiency. Plumbers have to integrate electricity when they go into heat pumps. So there is kind of a journey across skills which has to be organized. The next point is design and decide on total cost of ownership. We always speak about sustainability and sustainability is going beyond the moment and thinking long term. And today most of the designs are done on the cost of construction. They are not done on the total cost of any installation. And on take buildings or plants, the time of construction is probably 20% of the total cost that will be generated. So it's important to optimize on the full and it's particularly important for the decision made at the time of the choice of the project. Financing gap, what appears really well understood is that investment in energy efficiency have a very short payback which is great on the very good payback and it's a recurrent payback. We all do a lot of investments, right? But many investments bring cost as a byproduct of the investment. Efficiency is investing to take out costs. That's quite unique, right? It's like quitting smoking. It's not only good for your health but it's good also for your wallet and forever. So that's on birth to make that jump which is probably 1.5 to 3 years, many people or many companies need to be helped. And that financing is very special and it's a small financing that needs to be really, I would say, optimized for that kind of thing. Next point which was obvious companies, I should say, but on governments as role models. So companies have taken pretty stringent objectives in terms of carbon neutrality. Governments own tons of buildings on infrastructures and they should be the flagship on the role model of energy efficiency. Then regulations were cited. There was a vast consensus that the most efficient are incentive and not coercitive, carrot, more than the stick. But when something has to be coercive then there has to be an horizon so that people have the time to adapt and the time to review their parameters and to plan for that transition. A point that was really mentioned in the industry part of the workshops was agreed. When you want to acquire green electricity, some people mentioned 7 years to wait for a line to get access to that kind of power and that's not at the time when we have the urgency to fight climate change. Those are timelines which are not acceptable. Then the ninth point was to say when we speak about energy transition there is a natural tendency to revert to big ideas at a long-term horizon. I think there were plenty of people on stage yesterday saying we've got technologies which are very efficient, which are actually very cheap, but guess what? They are not even deployed at scale. When we are seeing at scale when people say only 2% of the homes have a thermostat that is not scale at all and that is really not serious. Identify the big stage. Remember Kim Fousing from Danforth saying well 65% of buildings are residential, 60% of emissions are due to heating. Well let's tackle it. Let's start with that before going into some exotic ideas with some technologies that will be developed in 10 years time. Identify the biggest take items and deploy what we have. Do with what we have to be pragmatic. Finally, and that's not for retrofit but for the huge construction which is coming in new economies and especially in Africa and in India and Southeast Asia and Latin America. Let's try to build the new net zero and in developed countries in this case stop nonsense sort of orientations. I try not to aim immediately at net zero from scratch especially in developed countries. So those are the 10 for 10x and they are not coming from me. They are coming from you. I tried to report that huge work against many, many thanks for your participation, for your engagement and for the very open dialogue yesterday. Today there are going to be more workshops with the objective to choose, with the objective to be even more pragmatic and to be coming up to governments with things which are executable or implementable. So looking forward to keep the good work together. I wish you a very good day and I would like now to invite the panel. Thank you. Welcome and that introduction as I invite my panel to join me. It's a great delight and honor to be here today with such a distinguished group to talk about the future of energy which is the master resource after all and the role that energy efficiency can play within it. We've all been reminded of the importance of energy in the last couple of years as we've experienced what Fatih Birol head of the IES called the first truly global energy shock and it comes this year on the 50th anniversary of course of the original oil shock which we mark and reflect on lessons that we should learn and one of those lessons really should be even if it is not fully absorbed the role of energy efficiency which has been called the first fuel. So as we think about how to advance the role of energy efficiency more effectively what's the role of partnerships between government and industry among industrial organizations and maybe among governmental cooperation which we've seen in the last day or two. I want to turn first to you Kiske if you can give us the IEA perspective how do you see the evolution of energy efficiency where we are now and maybe give us a reflection from from the past. I know as a youth you would remember some of the impacts of the early oil shocks in Japan and how Japan actually did a phenomenal job of embracing energy efficiency at least for a while. What lesson do you take from that going forward? Thank you Vijay but first of all I would like to express my appreciation to the Schneider for hosting this very big energy efficiency conference. Yesterday I was talking with Brian about our memory of the first the global energy efficiency conference and we started from kind of a modest the conference room near the kind of the IEA office in Paris and it was really hard to imagine at the time that this efficiency conference would grow to this level. I think this is the most significant global energy efficiency conference that we ever had so thank you very much for all your participation. As Fatih Birol mentioned we have the around 100 countries participants from 100 countries and as we speak more than 30 ministers of the countries around the world are there now in the conference room maybe below here and they're discussing how we can accelerate and promote the clean energy transitions and the energy efficiency and we are planning to have their joint declaration statement coming out soon. Now in terms of the kind of a level of kind of interest in energy efficiency and I think it is of course coming from the need for clean energy transitions and the climate change risks but also recently we can add that the energy supply security concerns is adding to that factor and I think that the thanks for raising the experience with the the first oil shock in 1970s I still remember maybe many of the people around here do not have do not remember anything or even were not born at the time but I was maybe a junior high student and I still remember the chaos in the society of the first oil shock coast and that forced the governments around the world to go for energy efficiency and also the kind of the alternative energy developments and so I would recall that the for instance the typical example is the calm mileage efficiency for instance and the Japanese cars the energy efficiency improved at a very drastic scale and immediately after this the oil shock so so this reminds us that kind of the real crisis energy security crisis would force us to take very strong actions in energy conservations and the improving energy efficiency but also the kind of a faster renewable deployments but the but but we cannot only rely on the crisis situation so I think what we need is a very strong robust and predictable the stable the policies for the incentives or the standards or various requirements by the government to to force us the entire society for the more energy efficient and the cleaner the energy systems so one big lesson is when we're in crisis mode people change behavior but that's not sustainable in and of itself when you dev a systematic approach institutionalized policy based and and I think we have heard from the IEA in several reports released this week an assessment of where we are on energy efficiency improvements and where we need to go can you tell us a little bit about that what are we doing everything that we need to or is there more to do well one good news is that things are improving and we have seen a very slow level of energy efficiency improvements in terms of the kind of the energy intensity of the economy we were seeing almost like a kind of one percent growth improvements in the past several years but last year 2022 we finally saw the the improvement rate increased to two percent so this is good because we are seeing better energy efficiency improvements but as you point out this is far less than what is needed so in our net zero the the pathway net zero by 2050 pathway we need the more than four percent of the annual energy efficiency improvements so that's something in effect so yeah of the rate from the current level and even and also we need to be mindful that this two percent is not something guaranteed you know right once people become lazy and the government doesn't enforce strong policies it could be reduced further so so the so for more than four percent is needed toward the 2030s at least to keep us on track to achieve the net zero by 2050 pathway and also it's not only about the clean clean energy transitions or the avoiding the serious climate change risk but also the energy efficiency is good it has a kind of multiple benefits I mean in terms of energy security but also it can lead to more high quality jobs and also it helps the countries the without energy access to get them I mean so so in retrospect I think that we all need to be aware of the whole the benefits that the energy efficiency improvement can bring and that we work to work really hard to achieve it thanks just one further thought on this before we dig into the experiences of our practitioners everything you say sounds so good as Americans say it's like motherhood and apple pie who could be against that way why is it so hard to do well first of all we can't see it and in the case of solar p b wind we can see those windmills the standing up in the air and we can see the numbers in terms of the gigawatts generated from this plant but the we don't see that the in the energy efficiency so so that's why the in our energy efficiency market reports we've been trying to come up with the ways to show the very tangible benefits from the energy efficiency so what if the efficiency improvement had not happened we would have needed this certain amount of you know so extra coal power plants you would have needed or exactly and of course the best and safest power plants are those not built so so in retrospect we we're trying to kind of about these to improve that kind of a visibility of the benefits from the energy efficiency improvements but of course we have not done enough so we would like to work even harder on it and we would really appreciate the everybody's input into this such efforts but thank you very much for that no thank you so okay so we see the scope of the challenge as well as the opportunity that you've laid out for us that that really we have to raise ambition and and maybe institutionalize or make make things more tangible so that people act on them let me turn to your cristal if you don't mind your in a sector that is not ostensibly a heavy industry you're not a power producer or a steel maker you do something also that's in the ether communications you connect people right and yet we all know when we dig deep into it the more and more advanced we get with communications you need energy we've seen the transformation in the digital sector from the internet itself to streaming to cloud to now of course 5g internet of things rolling out each is a big energy guzzler so tell us how you think about digital and in particular how you try to ensure that as you expand the services and connectivity that we all enjoy and appreciate and want more of how do you do it in a way that's responsible and mindful of efficiency sure so i mean if there's one industry indeed that's focused on energy efficiency for quite some time it's really the digital industry because think about it every year we have to design and upgrade our networks to swallow an increase of traffic of 30 percent on our mobile networks so on one side you have 30 percent increase on the demand side and and especially last year if you think about the increase of the price of electricity in europe we want to control our cost structure so i think the industry whether it's the cloud providers or telecom providers we've been focusing on energy efficiency for quite some time we've launched a program a few years back already which we've called green it networks that's helping us stabilize our energy consumption in an environment where we deploy more mobile sites and the energy consumption of our networks is driven by the number of mobile sites then optimizing the design of our networks because thinking about it why would you have always on networks i mean wi-fi networks mobile networks when actually at night nobody's really turning on the phone so we are putting intelligence in our network so that we can optimize the power emission of our mobile sites that's a lot of work but that's something that we've been working between 2019 and 22 we save 25 percent in terms of energy consumption in europe on our mobile networks that's a lot of work but again because we're adding more networks ultimately that's stabilizing our energy consumption in africa where we operate the biggest challenge is to move from gensets fuel to electricity and renewable electricity but it's not somehow if you have a big i mean power plant or a big construction site or manufacturing plant you know how to do that but when you have thousands of mobile sites spread in areas where actually there's no electricity grid the challenge is to indeed deploy solar and battery on our mobile sites which we've done for 20 percent of our mobile sites in africa we keep on working on it and we keep working with governments as well to make sure that when there's investment in solar plants we can co-finance some of them and and and consume that electricity in jordan for instance we've done it and there's three solar plants that have been deployed that we're consuming for our needs because obviously we're lucky enough to be in an industry that consumes electricity so for us it's really massively moving to renewable energy in europe we want to move to 75 percent renewable energy by 2025 that's not that easy because everyone wants to do that so there's there's a speed uh and it's a race that we're moving at but again i think thanks to digital i mean we're helping our customers as well see their consumption uh mobile data consumption to make sure that we can be efficient turning off again their equipment at night so we've actually we've moved beyond just providing information to our consumers we've integrated features where automatically the network will do things and when people enter their homes the wi-fi box will turn on automatically because we know that if we only rely on the behavior of people we're not going to get the maximum impact so that's a lot of work the biggest challenge that we have is that if you think about it telecom networks are highly inefficient because today in this country we operate at orange two fixed networks four mobile side four mobile networks two g three g four g five g copper fiber copper is three times less efficient than fiber five g is ten times more efficient than four g so our biggest opportunity for energy efficiency is to decommission copper and decommission two g and three g which we plan to do by 2025 for three g 2028 for two g or vice versa copper by 2030 but again we have to do that while meeting the demand that's increasing by 30 percent every year so that's really a challenge that we can unless we work hard without equipment vendors with all I would say technology providers because it requires collaboration across industries so we're working obviously with partners like Schneider Electric Cisco Nokia and the device manufacturer as well because we haven't talked about co2 emission but the largest co2 emission when for telecom operators is coming from the manufacturing of those devices so extending the lifetime of those devices repairing providing services is also a big area of investment for us so you've laid out actually even a business argument why you're taking energy efficiency seriously and you hinted at the carbon question do you find things like a net zero commitment which in a sense is a societal obligation more than a immediate quarterly bottom line obligation what's the relative importance of those two motivations to try to dig into energy efficiency for you so we took commitments on our being net zero in 2040 which is I would say best in class in our industry and we added some commitments now on 2030 reducing by 45 percent our scope one two and three emissions by 2030 we had half debates in the company and with our board of directors on is this ambition enough is this not enough I mean can we achieve it because again increase of demand and obviously scope three relies on how fast the industry will will move to net zero as well so that's something really that we're working on with with all our suppliers and also explaining to our customers what they should be doing to improve their own carbon emissions 80 percent not surprisingly 80 percent of our emissions come from scope three so that's something on which we work hard but again 2022 at least in Europe given the price of energy I mean I'm sure that in the past at least I was meeting with a lot of people nobody knew how much they were paying for energy consumption I think in 2022 I've met with many CEOs first discussion was how much do you pay did you edge your consumption do you know what price you get for 2024 and we've always had a policy about I mean securing in advance our electricity consumption but I think the discussion has moved as well last year to securing and resilience of our of our energy purchase because indeed with the war in Ukraine there's been a lot of tension on the electricity production in Europe so that's also a new theme that popped up last year which maybe we never had in Europe that's discussion we've had a lot in Africa as well right your comment about your CEO clients being aware of energy and measuring it gets to Jean Pascal's 10 priorities we heard among the first two that have come out of course is measure verify and also awareness be knowledgeable about the topic so it sounds like we're moving up that curve you'll be pleased to hear let's let's turn to you Peter you have clients around the world and your customers across industries what do you think you have in your cupboard of innovations that could help disrupt this game because if we're really going to rise to the challenge that Kiske has laid out and the IEA is laid out to not to maintain the 2% but go beyond even to double it towards 5% per annum I mean that's that's a Herculean challenge can we do it with just the tools we have in hand or do just deployment in other words or do we actually need to think about leapfrogging so you know first of all I think we're in a complex environment where we shouldn't wait until something new is coming the time is now action needs to happen now technology is available the issue that we're having is that the climate crisis is like a slowly warming pot of water where all of a sudden you know you feel comfortable and and you don't realize that you come into a problem now we come to a pivot point with a covid crisis and then also the war that people realize immediate action is required and the points that we've worked on yesterday with all the executives and governments you know demonstrate that there is a clear understanding that we need to go fast technologies there and it says 10x because we actually need 6x but as an industrial we know if we give our target of 6 we may end up at 5 so maybe give a target of 10x in respect to to speed technology is available to do many of the things I think Christel gave great examples of what we discussed yesterday a data center is you can say it's a building where you can say it's an infrastructure or you can say it's a plant that processes data one of the things that is on top of the agenda in a data center is of course the bill of material and energy is on top of it these are very sophisticated buildings so people put a lot of energy personal energy engineering energy into drive the cost down now if you go into the building industry more general that we discussed yesterday it's very complex because you have contractors you have owners you have builders you have electricians you have you know a big network of people that may have different interests in the supply chain now that's why we've said let's create awareness as an engineer you would always say you know I can only improve what I can measure so how can we put measuring points in there into the building into an industrial facility to show people where they are how much saving they can get and in what period of time they have they have a payback from that perspective so it's our task to create more and more awareness in buildings in industrial environment and so forth how to drive energy efficiency because it's from my perspective the biggest source of clean energy that we can generate and then deploy it in areas that is in desperate need this task of of measurement monitoring verification and action this sort of a virtuous loop there what are the essential tools do we need the internet of things as it's called to be rolled out I know industry has already had it for some time you have a pilot project here in France I believe the two companies here on stage but at homes how real is it what I know is that experiences with smart meters for example people have talked about real-time metering or smart meters for 20 years some early experiences were not that successful because it turned out that people weren't motivated by a few pennies of savings or you know there's more going on in your life nobody wants to be an energy day trader for a small amount of money the complexity put people off what have we learned about how behavior works such that we can maybe automate these or use intelligent software to manage this what's the state of the art on this so first of all I would say it's very important to see that in you know the cost points of a lot of the technologies that we're deploying has rapidly dropped in regards to solar in regards to heat pump in regards to every single data point we're still talked about it you know whatever you have on your mobile phone you can use the same tools to bring data to the cloud or into an area where you can process it we sensors become very cheap they don't need to have cable connection anymore and with that you can you can deploy the technology so you put sensors into for example in there's no reason that in a hotel for example every room you can you can have a sensor also in every meeting room you can have a sensor you know exactly how many people go into the room with that you know we all bring heat into the room and if you have more people in the room the air condition needs to go stronger if there is only two people in the room no need to to run the air conditioning at the same speed we know from the outside what kind of solar intensity comes in we can we can dim there is glass available that can automatically dim in that respect so putting in the sensor is fairly fairly cheap that's what Jean Voskal mentioned in the in the opening this morning now analytics is available and it is easy to scale because it's in the cloud so with that it becomes very feasible we haven't done a good job in industry to explain it also explain it to the right people that's why it's important that we're bringing industry and government together here so that we're creating I say incentives I'm a big fan of incentives and these can be tax incentives as opposed to saying you shouldn't be doing that you shouldn't be doing that no here's an incentive to to do something and then people have now seen and and that's the pivot point from our perspective how expensive energy can be to drive it down let me come back to a case game the ideas that are put on the table here are these relevant for developing economies and I know the IEA thinks very carefully and deeply about questions of energy poverty energy access the the billions that will come online in the next few decades in places like India Africa and other parts of the emerging world where energy access cannot be counted on fully yet are the kinds of advanced tools we're hearing about just for the rich world or what what is the application that you see for potentially leapfrogging with the smart cities perhaps emerging in in the developing world even before they fully blossom in the in the developed world and what role should international agencies and governments and cooperation play in making sure that happens first of all I need to point out that the even though there is a kind of a developed and developing world but the all the energy systems around the world are actually connected so when the last these last year the the gas supply crisis happened and Europe had to purchase whatever the LNG available then that led to the enormous the high prices of global energy and that led to those developing countries in the in particular those south Asia countries they had to switch back to coal because the natural gas were not available so in that respect whatever the kind of the right efforts that advanced economy would take would bring benefits substantial benefits to those developing world which is struggling to maintain the kind of energy access or there are many for those who don't have who don't have even access to energy so so they're in a stage before talking about efficiency so so that's something that we need to point out but as you rightly point out there's this kind of a leapfrogging the opportunities so the so we're now seeing the enormous progress in terms of the distributed energies cleaner distributed energy sources so if with the support of those IT technologies they first can have access instead of building the kind of the heavy copper wires and build a enormous a big grid before doing that well that that would be probably necessary as a development as a development progress but as a kind of initial steps they have an opportunity to have kind of the access immediate access to the clean and distributed the electricity power sources so I think that's something that can bring benefits and almost benefits to the emerging economies without the energy access yet we've talked a lot about technology and we've talked about certainly some policies I wondered if you could give us a perspective and I'll ask all my panelists maybe to respond to this that is finance this is a crucial obstacle it seems to me in and we've the IEA is laid out in order to get to the ambitions of net zero and the Paris Accord that particularly in the emerging world we're going to have to see a dramatic increase in investment into the clean energy economy on the order of four trillion per annum a dramatic increase from where we are now and I spend a lot of time with people in the financial world and just very recently a couple days ago in Washington I shared an economist event on the very similar topics to what we're talking about today the senior figure from the world's largest asset manager said on my stage that it's very difficult to mobilize capital to invest in clean energy technologies in the developing world I said ah is it because it's you know private sector you said no we've got a billion dollar fund we started with international financial institutions willing to do first dollar risk that is so-called hybrid financing and it's very hard for us to get projects that we can vet and validate there's counterparty risk there's rule of law there's currency risk in other words you went through a list of 12 or 15 challenges and I see a number of people agreeing with me vigorously from the audience from shaking their heads positively so in practice especially as the IEA is also home to the clean energy ministerial process which wants to encourage this what can you tell us on the financing front that may be some good news or a provocation on what we need to do better well of course the we need massive amount of investments in the the energy transitions but also we need to be aware that the vast majority almost kind of the vast majority of additional energy demand the energy demand growth is coming from those emerging economies and developing countries so so the in terms of the effectiveness of the various investments and the clean energy transitions we have to clean up those energy investments in emerging and the developing world that is quite obvious but as you point out there are several kind of hurdles kind of obstacles to that and so we point to one of the element is that the capital costs for those investments in those emerging economies developing countries are much higher than the case of the advanced economies and of course that's that's a problem with the financing but it's not limited to the financing it's about the kind of a stable the regulatory and the policy environments in those developing countries and so in that respect because if the investors can have us kind of the confidence in terms of the money can return with the kind of a stable energy policy the environments and the regulations then it would be much easier for them to spend money on them so in that respect we think that the capacity building with those the emerging economies developing countries are very important part of the IEA and you pointed to the clean energy ministerial but we also have the program called the clean energy transitions program we thank all those member countries for the kind of a generous support to the programs but with those additional funding we've been trying to have a capacity building to those developing countries so that they can build and the building much better and more stable transparent predictable the energy policies and the regulations in their systems so the investment environment needs to provide that reassurance if we're going to increase the flows of capital now Peter you obviously deal with many of these countries particularly now we heard from KSK the baseline challenges but we're now in a high-interest rate environment globally that obviously affects the cost of capital especially in developing countries and payback rates how do you answer this when your customers express concern about this of course the interest rate does play a role into it but I want to you know go back to the conference you quoted earlier I think it's not about the billions you know if we're taking Christelle's issue of having a diesel generator that needs to be exchanged to solar maybe plus a battery plus a little mini grid in Africa where if you look at the population growth that we will have it will come out of Africa it will come out of India that's where stuff will need to be built and if we're attacking this that doesn't require billions it requires an easy way of having access to funds to to do it without having a phd to do the application now and the technology is available simple solar panels very simple batteries you may not even need an inverter because they're just in their small grid they do everything with direct current that comes straight from the sun if you will we we build technology we need to educate and train electricians to be able to do that so in those villages they can actually do the work but they have invested into this into this diesel generator so how do how do we create an incentive to get rid of the diesel generator and put the other technology in on on scale so it is kind of a swarm of of money that is required in an easy way now if we move to the first world go to california and look at if you want to build a new house there regulation is in place you got to put solar on on your top people think about the second e ev car that they want to put into the garage plus a battery and so forth so regulatory environment is there need to put solar on so the question is is it an easy way to lump this into into the credit framework of building the house and you pay it over the period of time and the savings actually pay pay for it that's there it's much more difficult in africa or in india to come up with with these kind of solutions that we i think need and maybe to add because obviously i mean at orange we operate in 18 countries in africa and the reality is that very often we bring mobile services in villages before there's energy in those villages and the reality is that africa is a continent where it's mobile first but there's no banking system most people don't have a bank account in africa and so they use their mobile with mobile payment solution to get credit by credit and so the mobile payment has been vastly adopted in africa and we've been testing models providing energy access solution in villages and the fact that we bring an ability to collect money through the mobile payment provides a framework where then investors are prepared to invest because the big issue in most of those project infrastructure project is indeed the counterparty risk and whether or not you're going to be able to collect get paid ultimately and i think this is where a collaboration between the power and the energy sector and the mobile and the telecom industry is extremely powerful in countries like africa where again there's no banking system as as much deployed and adopted than we see in the developed world you mentioned collaboration i know there's a specific example between the power and telecom industry you have a factory in which you're collaborating if i'm not mistaken with schneider can you tell us what is it you're trying to test or what's the hypothesis you're looking at with this innovative laboratory yeah i actually i know it because i was on the schneider side when we did this this pilot but we have we have many examples where it's about in that case it's retesting 5g and stretching the possibilities of 5g connection in an environment of production where you can use video and have real-time access to data much better than you get through wi-fi or 4g so that's that's a pilot but again we're deploying 5g massively in most of our countries and 5g and especially will help guarantee for enterprise customers guaranteed bandwidth secured throughput which today is not available because mobile networks are not safe enough not reliant resilient enough i would say for very critical use uh that manufacturing players have or infrastructure players have so we're piloting same is true in with the port of barcelona or the port of ends where end worked where there's massive traffic of ships trucks massive data being exchanged and the need to have high speed connectivity between mobile i would say trucks and obviously ships is is is needed but you need a highly secure environment and that's what 5g brings so that's what we pilot with uh with schneider in one factory that's what we pilot with many i would say enterprises so um thank you christel you've explained how you've created a fire hose to accelerate the amount of data but peter i'm putting you on the spot what i know about increasing data flows is that you end up with a data deluge and sometimes it's hard to make sense of all of it uh what is your plan uh to actually make sense of this vastly higher quantities of data that are going to come is it some form of artificial intelligence or you know what we're looking into the future on this the uh we don't need to look into the future technologies available today that's the that's the great point number one also if we want to go 10x we discussed it earlier measure and diagnose analyze and then take action so um you know people talk about these huge data leaks i don't think we we um we need those what we need is structured data and that's uh that's available in industrial sites today it's available in in building so you know we call this contextualized mean the data has information to it it has a time stem to it and um there's analytics available that today um deployment of AI is not is normal it in you know in in an industrial environment including a building is for me also is an an industrial way of of living or we're doing something the the technology deploys AI it's already already today um we've we've talked about earlier a client that we we have that I visited last week he's connected all his his real estate into one control room um where he he looks at all the assets in his his buildings be it um compression units be it the HVAC units be it the power distribution with a thousand and thousands of of data points some of those locations are remote software is available runs on the cloud including AI it tells them how to optimize the air conditioning how to optimize a grid situation where they also have put in some solar savings in the first year 29 percent of of the energy bill so technology is available we just need to measure we need to analyze and then we need to take action on that point i'm glad you went to the building sector because um uh you know as was identified yesterday on stage the building sector is a huge huge challenge um and it's the retrofits right as Jean Pascal pointed out it's uh it's not it's easy enough it's hard enough i should say but easier to do new buildings to a net zero standard but the vast building stock overwhelming building stock that has to be retrofitted is often the challenge and i'll note this as anyone that lives in a city as a renter let's say uh there's a misalignment of incentives problem right the person who designs the building is not the same as the one who pays for it it's not the same as the one who leases it and ultimately again if you're a renter and one of the many cities around the world uh you don't even have the right as i don't at my apartment in Manhattan to have the double or triple glazed windows i don't control the HVAC it's centrally controlled uh even if they're terrible uh and so you have uh i would even invest my own money to do it but i'm not allowed to do it and so how do you persuade building owners or managers uh to overcome some of these if they don't win the payback from the investments you know so when you when you look at the large stuff the um those are developers they have meanwhile also understood that their tenants uh do have that interest and technology is brought in what we need to make sure is that it is maintained over time and that that is not a one-time effort so every year there needs to be productivity and we could create incentives that it is measured every year and productivity is incentivized by tax benefits now if somebody likes the stick you can also use a tax penalty if you if you will if you if you go to smaller places where people build something or you you go again you know africa india other locations where we need to have very easy to deploy cheap is a bad word cost effective um you know sensor technology applications to be able to show people how they how they can save money and and that will that will drive it because if it's if it comes out of the pocket and can be done by the owner at the end of the day of the place or the lisi that's the way to go can you give us an example of what works just to illustrate your point so um you know take some of the larger real estate developers with with whom we're sitting together i go back to the us for example we'll talk with them and we figure out how we can in in buildings that are built i'm in the residential space how ideally they can put solar panels in plus charging plus battery plus inverter so it's um it's targeted towards the future when you also have cars that could actually um go bi-directional um and make them include this into the total offer right from the beginning so when people come and um they don't need to bring their own knowledge to say this is what i want to have but they they get a complete turnkey offer that's then also built into the rates that they need to that they need to pay and they can actually have um have a view on on um what that means for them just in the in the time remaining um kisk i'm going to turn to you maybe give you the last word on this the um we've heard about the role of uh carrots and and to some degree of sticks what what do you see from the iea perspective when you look across the landscape of policy options and cooperation um what would be the most effective interventions you'd like to see carrots or sticks going forward to push energy efficiency to a higher level that's actually a kind of rather difficult questions because uh it depends on countries and regions so uh the certain policy measures can work uh to some countries but may not do the other countries so i think it's really important that uh member countries learn from each other in the price signals always work don't they or is price signals always work but uh but but we also need to bear in mind that for instance the last year enormously high electricity costs that was a very strong incentive for kind of energy conservation and the reduced spending on the electricity and other energy and natural gas but at the same time uh it's not it's not we need to be careful that it's not only good part but there are some actually kind of demand distractions so so curtailed the manufacturing industrial activities which shouldn't have happened but uh they gave up and in some cases they moved the kind of the factories to the place with a lot cheaper energy costs so so i think that the price is a very important incentives uh price signal is very important but the the government should take all should kind of the involve mobilize all the other various measures and that includes the building codes various energy efficiency standards so that they can force in a continuous manner in a kind of a very stable kind of a long-term perspective they can promote so so even though the price signal is important but it's also very important for the government to take whatever measures that can work in terms of the standards or the kind of a labeling requirements and also kind of a auditing kind of a requirements all those measures need to be put in place so that they can force the industries to make necessary investments and take the kind of various operational actions for the improving energy efficiency and presumably they should avoid doing harm because we also saw perverse subsidies for example that encouraged greater consumption at a time where at least the price signal might have done its job obviously i think everyone reasonable would support lifeline tariffs for the poor but that's different from blanket subsidies for the entire economy let's say and if countries and companies around the world wanted to learn about this and to get smart and learn from best case examples what's the right way to do it what's the IEA support on that front so our role we believe is to support the member countries government's shared best practices and also help those no members in the developing world to learn from the various examples of the the IEA member countries so the and I think that there's so much room for improving the standards there are many systems for instance the air conditioners the so when we look at the air conditioners sold around the world there's so so much kind of a diversity in terms of the the the efficiency of their performances so if those countries can adapt not so that kind of the most advanced but the kind of middle sized energy efficiency standards then it can reduce the energy spending a lot a lot more so so i think that the the the our role is to facilitate those the countries are learning from each other and also give opportunities for the industries to learn for making better investment actions and this way raise the bar allow that raised ambition to be reached well good i think that's a good note to finish on thank you very much please give my panel a wonderful round of applause to thank them and i turn it back to Monique our emcee dear thank you so much vj and thank you to casque to cristal and peter as well i also want to say thank you to everyone who is watching on the live stream uh so we were able to broadcast this discussion today and a thank you to Jean Pascal who delivered the opening remarks so there is going to be a short break in the program this morning about a 15 minute break for those of you who are interested in continuing the exchange and the dialogue on the 10 priorities for 10x we will be meeting at 1015 in the upstairs conference room of the congress and we would welcome you to come and join us with that we wish you a great rest of the program today thank you