 What is happening people? This is Chris Broussard, the host of In the Zone, and I'm glad you tuned in this week. We have a wonderful show for you. Our interview is with Steven Jackson, and you know Steve always keeps it real. That's one you definitely don't want to miss. We got Knock Down Jay returning with my man Jason McIntyre, but as always, we start with the top five post-season player power rankings. A lot of shake-up this week. Guys that were in it last week, not in it this time. Guys that weren't in it are in it this time, and we started number five, Draymond Green. That's right. Draymond is doing it all for the Warriors, leading the Warriors in blocks, steals, rebounds, assists, playing great defense at times on Anthony Davis, holding him over the first two games of their series with the Pelicans to 48% shooting and just 23 points a game. That is great defense on Anthony Davis. And above that, Draymond is giving them 17 and a half points a game over the last three games for Golden State. Draymond Green number five. At number four, Kevin Durant. That's right. Draymond's teammate. Look, Durant is the one guy that Steve Kerr has been able to count on for big-time offensive production through these playoffs, giving them 28 points a game, up this rebounding to nine boards a game. You know he's playing solid defense. And when Steph Curry was out, he did a nice job of orchestrating the offense, five assists the game. Now that Steph is back, it's going to be that much easier for Durant to score and that much harder for his opponents to stop him. At number three, surprise, surprise, Al Horford, Boston Celtics. Look, I got to admit, I don't generally think of Al Horford as a star. I know he's made all-star games and all that. I tend to think of him as a professional, as a guy I'd love to have on my team as a great veteran voice in the locker room and on the court. But with Kyrie Irvin out, my man, Al Horford has delivered. He has played great basketball. He has averaged 19 points a game. The team high, eight and a half rebounds way above his season average. And he's doing it on 62% shooting, including 47% from behind the arc. Gotta give props to big Al. At number two, James Harden. I had to start giving the beard some love because he has given us major production. He is exercising the demons of past playoff failures. First of all, he puts it on Jimmy Butler, one of the greatest defenders in the league in the first round. And now he is doing it to the Utah Jazz in game one. He welcomed him to the second round. Let him know it's gonna be a bit different than the thunder in the first round. 41, eight and seven. James Harden doing nothing to make me regret voting for him as MVP. And at number one, LeBron James. It's time we gave the king his props. Look, you know, you're having a great post season when you lock up the opponent's all star point guard for the fourth quarter and overtime holding him to three points. When you get a 26 point triple double, when you hit a game time shot near the end of regulation to force overtime and then going to win, you know, you're playing well when that is considered a bad game. That's how good LeBron James has been. This has been the greatest one man show I have seen in decades. He is getting it done, leading all playoff scores with 33 points a game, 54% shooting. If LeBron gets just a little bit of help, a wee bit of help. If Kevin Love stops playing like Kevin Hart and starts playing like the perennial all star he is, then the cast will win the East once again. Give LeBron some help. I'ma give LeBron his props. He is number one right now in the post season player power rankings. All right, we're here in the zone and it's my pleasure to welcome my man, Stephen Jackson. What's up, brother? Long overdue. That's right. You might be their favorite player. I think that's why I'm so loved. I wasn't an all star, which I should have been. I wasn't one of the stars in the game, but everywhere I played, I played the game the right way. I gave everything I had for it, and that's why I got so many fans. People love me for that. I'm a real one, people know, and a lot of stuff is fake these days, so people hold on to the real. I hear you. First, speaking of real, man, I'm looking at your championship ring. How often do you wear that? When I'm on TV a lot, but especially since I've been doing TV in the playoffs, I wear it more in the playoffs, because it's around championship time. This is something that I hold on to. A lot of guys played the game and was never the best in the world. That's how I hold on to being drafted second to last pick. This means a lot to me. I'm going to get to a lot of your career, because I don't think people understood how good you are in the NBA and before that, so I want to get to that a little later. But some of the news that's happened recently, Charles Barkley, obviously what he said about Draymond, he wants to punch him. What did you think about that? Draymond replied, perfect. You're not going to do it, so why even say it? I'm pretty sure Charles Barkley wants to punch somebody, punch Shaq. That's the one that bings you up and slams you on the floor. We all know Barkley is just talking. We know he's not going to do that. Me personally, I've never had a back and forth competition with the older guys, because I respect them so much. They know if they came at me sideways, it's really going to be an issue. Barkley knows saying that to Draymond is not going to really be an issue. I think he was kind of out of line for saying that, because Draymond is a grown man. You can't say somebody should punch him. But like I said, Draymond responded the best way he could. You're not going to punch me, so just leave it alone. Draymond did it right. You got to defend yourself as a man. Now, LeBron is gone at Barkley. D-Way kind of backed up LeBron, kind of went at him. What do you feel is the feeling of players around the league toward Barkley? Is there some tension there, or some guys get tired of stuff he says? And this is where the fine line comes. Guys like LeBron and D-Way, we know they respect Barkley as a player. But when you're on TV and you feel like they're paying you to say these things, or when they know that you're not really about that, or you don't really feel like that, they feel like you're saying it because you're on TV, it kind of makes them lose respect. Because we all know that for LeBron and D-Way to have confrontation or to go back and forth with words about Barkley, when these two guys respect the game and the guys that came before them more than anybody, these guys are students of the game. So when Barkley says stuff like that, and guys know that it's not really coming from him, it's coming from him being on TV and trying to be funny and stuff like that, it kind of takes away from the respect from him. But me as a person, I respect them. I just know he knows who to pick with. He wouldn't do that to Zach Randolph. You know what I mean? So I know what he's doing. Now you play in the big three with Charles Oakley. A real one. Yeah, we know he don't really have any love for Charles. I know it's them, I believe it stems back to the lockout in 99, 98, 99. Were you there? I wasn't there, but I heard that Barkley walked up to him and slapped him. That he slapped Barkley? Yeah, he slapped Barkley. That Oakley slapped Barkley. I'm not sure if it's true, but that's what I heard. I heard he went and slapped him. Yeah, that's what I heard too. Like a child. But I wouldn't put it past Oakley. That's my OG. It's funny we talked about him before I walked in and I just got a text from him. And he told me, you look like a hundred million dollars on TV. A compliment like that coming from him, one of the best dressed guys in NBA history. That means a lot to me. That's my guy. So we talk a lot. But if I heard that story and Oakley's name was involved, nine out of 10 times, I believe it. Why doesn't Oakley like Barkley? Do you know the backstory? I don't know the backstory. I only speak on what I know. I don't really know the backstory, but I know it's been some beef for a while. Oakley's regarded as the toughest, pretty much the toughest dude in the league. Like nobody wanted to mess with Oakley. How did dudes know he was so tough? Well, it's at a point where when a guy's talking, you know by his words and his actions, if he really wants to go there. You know what I mean? Me, I'm cut from that same cloth of Oakley. You say anything disrespectful to me in the game. My first reaction is, are you being disrespectful that you want to fight or are you just talking for TV? And I can tell the difference. Guys that's really been in fights, that's really been in wars, you know. I always say I speak three languages, English, Spanish and body language. I know when a guy is really ready to go or if he's just talking and nine out of 10 times, guys in the NBA, they just bumping. Yeah, I always say the easiest place to act tough is on the court because you know it ain't going nowhere. Two punch max, referees come and break it up. Yeah, and you know now you get fine, you get kicked out of the league. See, we didn't care about that. I got fine three minutes for one punch. So I didn't care about money. I'm going to die before I be disrespected. How do you now as an analyst and you know, you're talking about players and coaches and everything. How do you weigh where you want to go? Like how much you want to say? Because I'm sure you know a lot that you don't share on TV. How do you kind of balance where you want to go? Well, the best way I can answer this is this is the way I came in the game. I came in the game with being a straight shooter, being me, lover to leave it. I've never compromised my integrity or what I stand for for anything in my life. So there's no need to now. I have a job to do on TV and that's to give my honest opinion about things, whether if I'm friends with a guy and he's not playing well, or just like when Durant did the fake page, I've said something about it, but that's my little brother. Like I got real love for Katie. But I felt I'm so real and I'm honest enough, I can tell my brother, look, that was weak. You shouldn't have done that. You know what I'm saying? Let him know that and we can move on from it. And guys around the league, the new younger guys and older guys, they know me. They're at the point where you only can be real with me because if it's anything fake, I can sense it and I'm not going to respect it. And I've always had that relationship around the league and I want to be a coach one day, you know, because I know I would be a great coach because I'm such a student of the game. And if me being me, who I was raised to be, the guy I've always been, affects me getting a job further because I'm saying some things that people might not agree with, so be it. How soon do you want to start getting into coaching? Well, you know, this is nothing new. You know, I've talked to Mike Brown about it many times. If he hasn't had a head coaching job, I'm pretty sure if he had one in the last three years, I would have been on the coaching staff. I talked to Jerry Stackhouse about being a assistant coach with him, so even Mark Jackson. So it's been talked about a lot of times because people know my passion for the game and the knowledge that I have that I can spread to these young guys and teach them how to play with that passion. You know, some of that stuff can't be teached. You just got to have it. Now we talked about the championship ring. You won at no three with the Spurs. You had three seasons where you averaged 20 points a game or more. Excuse me, three more where you averaged 18 or more. And you said it earlier, you think you should have had a better career. You had a really good career. You think you should have a better career? I definitely should have had a better career as far as accolade wise. I mean, to be the second to last pick, to finish with 13,000 points, you know, that's a lot. I know a lot of guys in the Hall of Fame that might not have 13,000 points or a championship. You know, I've just been a winner, Chris. I won on every level I've ever played in. Little league overseas, high school, NBA, every level I've played in, I've been a champion. So I'm just a winner, man. And I never got my due. It had a lot to do with the brawl. It had a lot to do with the shooting at the strip club in Indiana. So a lot of it's me. A lot of it is me being too loyal to my friends and helping them and putting myself in situations that I shouldn't have because I was loyal to guys that wasn't loyal to me. Like me shooting for Jamal Tensley, I don't think he would have done that for me. You know what I mean? Mark, he's down his wither because he did it. But I don't think Jamal Tensley, I regret doing that. I don't regret helping my team at the time because, you know, I didn't want nothing to happen to him. But what the jacket it put on me, as I'm a thug, you know, not knowing that the only two incidents in my life I've been in trouble for was helping other teammates. I went to help Ron in the stands. I went to help JT at the strip club. I was never in trouble before that in my life. So, and I think that that affected me being an All-Star, especially in Charlotte. That y'all had in Charlotte when I got traded to Golden State. I had a great year and Paul had got hurt. I just knew I was going to make the All-Star game. You know, Paul Pierce. Paul Pierce. I even talked to him. I'm like, yeah, I'm having, you know, I'm because Gerald Watts had already got in and I really should have made it for Gerald because I was the leading scorer of that team. Gerald was great, but I brought that team. Once I got there, that was the first time in 13 years, the first time the organization has ever been to the playoffs. I led that team. And when Paul got hurt and then they gave it to David Lee, this is personal. This is personal. You know, this is not about what, this is not about me being a basketball player. And Baron Davis said this after we beat Dallas in game six. I think I had six or seven threes that game. Baron Davis said a lot of people, they say a lot of things about Stephen Jackson, but they never ever talk about how good of a basketball player he is. You're right. You're right. And I was going to ask you, do you think, I know the players give you the respect, but you think the general public of basketball fans doesn't really know how good you were as a player? Half of them probably never seen me, you know, and a lot of them don't know, but you know, I look at it like this. I've always looked at it like this. Never made an All-Star game. I am NBA champion. I made the rookie All-Star game. They don't count to me. But at the end of the day, I got respect from every guy that I played against from Kobe. Tim Duncan said I'm the ultimate teammate. Don Nelson, the winningest coach ever, said I wish I had five Stephen Jackson's. The type of compliments I got from guys around the game that's in the game, that means more than anything else. One, what I remember you in my first recollection of you was you were a McDonald's All-American. Let the game you score. Yeah, I mean, Kobe, Jermaine O'Neill, Tim Thomas, Mike Bibby, all them playing in that game. At that point in time, who'd you think was the best player in the country? High school? Did you think it was you or somebody else? Me? I thought Tim Thomas was a God. He was nice. Him and Kobe. So you knew Kobe? Yes. I had seen guys like I, growing up, even though I went to Oak Hill, I didn't really see being a part of the techs growing up. We saw the Rockers, but I didn't really do watch NBA. You know, I saw highlights and I don't even know we had cable around that time. You know what I'm saying? To watch games growing up. So when I got to traveling in high school and seeing guys like Tracey McGrady and Tim Thomas, I'm like, wow. I think I'm good at six, seven. He's got seven foot doing the same thing I'm doing in high school. So, but I knew I was one of the best. You know, I knew I was one of the best in my class and that McDonald's game was my chance to show it and I think I did. What did you, at that point, what did you think of Kobe? You knew he was coming out to go pro, but you know, what did you, did you think he become or had a chance to become what he did? Well, he was so big, like they had like coming out of high school and he was all over the media going to the prom with Brandy. Like he was so built up. He was great in high school. Don't get me wrong, you know, but just as good as he was, Rip Hamilton was just as good. Okay. And Philly, that was his rival. What? Like Rip used to serve Kobe. Like they used to go back and forth. So Rip was just as good at that time. I could, I would not sit up here and lie to you ever and tell you that I would, I knew Kobe would grow into the player he was. I knew he was good, but I didn't think he was going to be one of the best of them. Now you were going to go to Arizona. You didn't go because of academic analysis. And they won the national championship. I would have had another championship. I went on every level. They won at my freshman year. I should have been there. Who was it? Was that Jason Terry and all those guys? Jason Terry was, me and Mike Bibby was the same recruiting class and Eugene Eggerson. They had Mike Miles, everybody, Mike Dickerson. They had the whole crew there. Okay. So you went to Butler Community College for a week. A week. And then you start going overseas. Now, and you draft the second round by the Suns. They cut you right away. They told me it was going to cut me. So why, why, like my thing is this, Scouts had to know and GMs and all that, that you were like a high school American. You know what I'm saying? Like they knew you had ability. Why do you think it took you so long to get to the NBA? Because it was about three years. Yeah. When I got drafted by the Suns, I owe all that to Mike Bibby's mom. Because when I didn't make it in Arizona, I was about to go back home and everybody from Mike's mom to my family, everybody knew that wouldn't go in well. Going back to gang banging and hanging out, you know, and not doing what I was supposed to do. And she, she let me move with her in Arizona. And she brought me right before the season started. She brought me up to the Phoenix Suns practice facility and asked one of the, one of the coaches, she talked to a Dan Edges, somebody that I played with the guys. This is the year they just traded for Jason Kidd, McLeod, McDyce. So they only had one pick. I think Stephen Ash, they had an early pick and they had the last pick in the draft. I think Steve Snappers are already drafted, I think. But they told me, we got one pick, 42nd pick in the draft. We're going to draft you. We're going to guarantee you 250,000, but we're going to cut you as soon as the CBA. This is when they had the CBA around that time. So I was, I'm coming from nothing. You want to cut me and give me money? It's a no-brainer. I'll take it. Where, where do I sign? You know, and when they drafted me, you know, I had the little draft part of the little small draft part in the hood, in the garage. Everybody's upset. I'm knowing I'm already going second round, but I'm not saying that to nobody. Are they mad because you ain't going first? Oh, they kicking stuff. He's not that good. I'm sitting there like, yeah man, don't worry about it, you know. Let go of work. Let go of work. And when it came around, you know, but it took a while because, you know, I wasn't ready. You know, like I said, I broke both of my feet at the time, so it was some doubts. How'd you break your feet? Just playing ball? I was born with stress fractures in both of them. So the doctor told my mom when I was a kid, one day they're going to break. And this doctor had to be a genius because he said it was between the age of 18 and 21, and that's when I broke both of them. And the second one I broke was kind of, it was kind of worse than the first one because I was trying out for the bulls. And it was two days before cuts. And I went from a team with no with the color jersey to two days for cuts. I'm on the starting team. Wow. So I was two days from making that team and broke my foot. And I actually called. That's the first time I ever thought about giving up. You know, I've called my mom, like maybe it's just not it. I called the crime. Like maybe it's just not it. I broke my other foot. Like maybe it's not meant for me to be an NBA. She told me, so that's what you're going to do. That's a response. So that's what you're going to do. You're going to sit on the phone and cry. Like, that's not the response I expected from my mom. Like, you know, I wanted some sympathy. She didn't give me none. So I wiped my tears, you know, went home, healed up, went overseas and bounced back. What do you think you would have been doing if you hadn't gotten to the NBA? Lord knows. Lord knows. I wasn't a book smart guy. You know, I never took school serious. I knew as a youngster I had some talent and basketball. But I don't know. I don't think it would have been positive. Because where I was at the time, it was two high schools, almost like eight sets of low income housing where I grew up at. 50,000, 6,000 people. So everybody's doing the same thing. It wasn't no options to, you know, nobody showed me a way out around that time. I didn't know anything. I was trying to figure it out. So it wouldn't have been good if I didn't have basketball, or if I didn't have a good family to keep me, you know, in the city, keep me out of trouble doing those times. When you go back to Port Arthur, if you go back, what's it like? Because a lot of guys talk about it's hard for them to go back to the hood, or you know, you've seen guys get their chains, snatch and stuff like that. What is it like when you go back? The earth is my turf. I go everywhere. You know, that's one reason why I love the person I am because people accept me everywhere because they know I'm genuine. I'm 100. You know, you can't find any flaw in my character. When I go home, it's all love. You know, my hometown loved me. I go home and do things like just like the hurricane. I have a gymnasium in my hometown. I use my gym as a storage facility for different people and players that I had relationships with to send things like cleaning products, infant meal, baby products, clothing, all kinds of stuff to help my city because they lost everything. And I fed Thanksgiving a couple years ago 800 families. It's not that many families. I didn't know they had that many families in Port Arthur. But Shack came down and we fed 800 families. My city loves me because I've never changed. I always go back, you know, you might pull up in Port Arthur and see me on somebody's portrait, my shoes off, eating some food at somebody's house that's not even my family member. So I'm loved at home. I give my city that same love because I give them a lot of props for helping me to get where I'm at because like I said, I did a lot of things to mess up my life. But the people in the city, the guys who sold drugs, when I tried to sell drugs, wouldn't let me and just gave me money. All that meant something to me. Because they knew you could play. Exactly. And they didn't have to do that. So I love my city and I always go back. That's a good point you made because I was talking to somebody about this the other day. Remember a few years ago when Carmelo, it was early in his career, he got caught on camera with a guy who sold drugs. Mello was just on the corner, you know, with a group of guys. Right. And people wanted to act like that meant Mello was involved with that. And you know, a lot of guys growing up in neighborhoods, you know drug dealers that take care of you, dudes that might be up to no good. Yeah. And that people need to understand that if you're from certain areas, you just going to know guys, it don't mean you doing that stuff. Right. But you're going to know guys, they might be your friends, they might be family members and they've taken care of you. Can you kind of talk to that because a lot of fans don't understand it. They think, oh, you just cut off so and so and so and so and not. Yeah. Well, I'm glad you asked me that question because I don't think nobody can answer better than me. Growing up, while I grew up, you know, some like saying, most people don't have cable and we don't see NBA players. We don't see NBA games. So we all want a better life. We all grow up, especially in the hood. You want to be the one to get everybody out the hood and make a better life for the people you love. When you're in the hood and you're not watching the fakeness on TV, the only thing you see real is the drug dealers making the money and taking care of the whole city, taking care of their families. So you look up to these people because taking care of your family is all you dream of. Helping your family, being able to have money and live nice is all you dream of. You've been struggling so much that all you think about is a better life. So you see guys, yeah, they might be selling drugs, but these guys might, they might have the biggest hearts ever because they look out for everybody. And I know a lot of, I can tell you this and this is Don's Got Truth. 20 of my, if I go home and I have 20 friends around me, 19 of them that sold drugs and 20 of them then did 10 or more years in jail. But that's just where I come from. I can't blame them. I don't blame nobody. That's just the cars who were all dealt the decisions that they made. But I looked up to these guys. This guy named Donald Ray, he got killed in the game involved in the drug game. But this was a guy that when I was trying to figure out my basketball and I wanted to make it to the NBA, this guy used to pick me up in these nice expensive cars, take me shopping. I wasn't his blood family. He knew that I was a good kid that wanted to make it out and my heart was genuine. He didn't have to come pick me up and take me shopping and all that. This was one of the biggest drug dealers in Texas at the time. And I never looked at him as a drug dealer because he wasn't the guy paying people to go kill people. He wasn't the guy, okay, you disrespect me, I'ma get you shot. I don't know what type of drug dealers that everybody think. Some drug dealers that's doing it for the right, it's not right, but they're doing it for the right reasons to help their family in a better life. And we understand that coming from that. And we can't judge anybody because we all done something that we regret in life, especially trying to come up from out the bottom. If you've never been in the bottom, then everything I said will be foreign to you because you have to be from the bottom or be in that area to know how to appreciate people that's trying to help anybody have a better life. Yeah, a lot of people when they came to this country, I mean, and they don't have anything, the mafia, that's what they did. And people look down on them, but a lot of people glorify that too. And they do take care, I'm not justifying it, but they do take care of their families. And their neighborhoods. Yeah, their neighborhoods. So it's a similar thing. The ring we were talking about, you won it with the Spurs in 03. What's it like playing for pop? It was unbelievable because nobody wouldn't knew about me. First of all, I give more credit to Mike Brown because when I was in New Jersey, the second half of the season, Byron Scott didn't play me. After making the rookie all-star game and coming back, he didn't play me at all. Took him out to start a lineup and everything, but Mike Brown still knew what I can do, even though when I wasn't playing. So I remember we was playing in Jersey. Mike Brown came up to me at the end of the game and was like, don't worry, keep your head, keep your focus. We come and get you this summer. And that summer, I went to Utah for the Utah class summer, and I was second in scoring behind Dirk. And when Pop came up to me, this was Pop exact words. This one, I fell in love with Pop because I love straight shooters. I have so many real friends in my life. It's easy to see a fake friend. You know what I mean? My conversations are so real, it's easy to see when somebody's being fake. Pop came to me, just as real. Him and Don, that's the only coach to talk to me like this. And recall, Jackson, I want you on my team, great player. You can't smoke weed on my team. Point blank. That's all he said. I said, okay, Pop, I still did it. You know what I'm saying? But I told him, I'm like, the fact that he can't, I've never heard anybody come direct to me, especially a caliber coach of Greg Pop, you know? And he was, he had, that time, he only had one championship. He wasn't a coach. But I still had that respect for him. And I still knew the opportunity to play with Tim Duncan and Dave Robinson was something that I couldn't, I couldn't mess up. And I told him, I wouldn't. And he signed me. And in the first year, they put more angel lists the whole first year I was there. I didn't play. And but I kept my focus having Mike Brown there helped me out a lot. So you were healthy. You were practicing. Yeah, I was killing the practice. I was, I was holding my own. And I was super frustrated because I felt like I wasn't playing, you know, they wasn't, team wasn't that good that year. Was that the, well, that was what? Oh, that was Sean Ellis last year. Okay, okay. And I didn't play. And I was frustrated to hold you, but Mike Brown kept me focused. Pop just kept telling me, I think this is what this is nothing. Pop told me that helped me have a long career. He was like, you're super talented on offense. If you learn how to defend, you have a long career. I defended in San Antonio to me around the 14 years that I played. I think I was a top five two-way player and that became what you was known for. People might not, if people go back and look at my 14 years, the North's 14 years, it ain't too many two-way players that was better than me. You know, I might not got the props I deserve, but if they look at the numbers and the team, every team I went to, I changed it. I helped them win. You know, I was one of the best two-way players. And I owe that to Pop, because once he let me know that if I was a defender, it helped me in this game, it gave me longevity. I took that serious. What was something about David Robinson and Duncan that people don't know or were surprised people? They both gave me something to my life that I needed being so young and not understanding that the NBA is a job and not just a game. Dave gave me the, what I had as a youngster, a foundation. Dave was a church going guy. His wife is awesome. Everybody she'd come around, she's like a mother to me. I was young at the time. They gave me that family feel, being away from home. Dave was like a father and his wife was like a mother. They invited me over on Sundays. I went to church with them after games. They took me out to eat, all kinds of things like that. They called and checked on me. When my mom wasn't in town, they'll call my mom and anything that we need to do. They really looked out for me. Tim was my big brother. Pop, you can say what you want. You can feel anybody. This is my little brother. I got it. And that was one thing about Tim, especially when I started. I remember when I was in Seattle, I wasn't playing. I was still on the Angeles. No, I was on the team. I wasn't playing though. Greg Pavich called me into his room. He said come to my room after shoot-around. We was playing in Seattle. I went to his room and Tim was already in there. I'm like, what's going on? I felt better because I knew Tim was in there. You know what I'm saying? I'm going into the courtroom by myself. I don't know what's going to go on. I'm still young at the time. I'm 21, 22 around the time. So he sat me down. I was like, we're going to start you tonight. I'm like, okay. Because I was playing well. I remember I was coming off the bench. So this was the year y'all won the title? Because I know you started on the championship. Yeah, yeah. And I was like, okay. And Tim was like, yeah, you know, you've been playing well. We just want you to continue to focus. You know, come out here. We're going to start you and play some Steve Smith. We just want you to play the game you've been playing. I'm like, cool. As soon as he told me that, I forgot Tim and Papa's in the room. I'm going to go to this locker room and I feel like I'm going to have a confrontation with a guy that I love most or who's probably done the most for me on this team is Steve Smith. But this is why I was blessed to play with great players. As soon as I walked in the locker room, Steve Smith grabbed me like, look, bro, this ain't personal. This ain't between me and you. I'm happy for you. But you know the, the, the, how I just ex-held and the, and the stress that took off me because I had so much respect for him. I don't want to feel like I'm low cutting or doing something behind his back. I didn't understand the game at the time, but him being a veteran, the ultimate professional, and he, I guess he saw it on me. He came up to me like, Jack, you know, I love you. You my little brother. It ain't personal between me and you. You go out there and you know what I'm saying? I was around great guys. You know what I'm saying? I was around great guys and been in San Antonio with Tim Dave, where Tim and Dave gave me as far as being a family and I like a brother and having a whole bunch of OGs, Kevin Willis, Steve, Steve Kerr, all those guys. It was a blessing for me. San Antonio was great. Now his pop, he's known as being hard on guys. Is he that hard on players in practice? It's not, I don't consider it being hard. You can pay to do a job. If you're doing anything less than that, if you're doing, if you're playing any less than a hundred percent, oh, he going to say something. If we sit there in practice and go through a game plan and you go out there and you're doing everything but the game plan, yeah, he going to be pissed. He has that right. And that's the only time Pop is never a jerk or upset about anything just because he can. You know, he'll, the same mistake I make, he might take me out from it, take me out the game to get to me to show me, look, you can't make these mistakes. As a young kid, but he might not take Tim out or when Tim come out the game, he's screaming at Tim the same way he will me. So you can't say that he picks on guys because he treats his best player just like he treats the last guy on the bench and that's why he's so respected. Are there guys though they couldn't handle that, like couldn't play for Pop? At times I couldn't because you know, it's times where he took me out the game and I walk, this the bench, I walk completely around just so I can shake nobody hand because that's how much upset I am. And you can look into the time when I was there at 03, every time I came out the game, Mike Brown, I walked down there and he was standing in front of me because I'm down to 20 curse words, f-pop, all this type of stuff. And Mike Brown standing in front of me, you know, blocking it, blocking it, you know what I'm saying? Then he's like, you all right? You good? And go sit back down. You know what I'm saying? So they knew how to handle me. You know, I think if I didn't go to San Antonio, my career wouldn't have been as long as it was because I learned a lot about myself and being a professional in San Antonio. Now when you left there, you went to several teams, Golden State, Indiana, all that, some great great runs. When you went back about nine, 10 years later, and they had won a few more championships, did you notice a change or was pop stature was bigger or the culture was it different or anything like that? I think the respect for pop has gotten, it gotten bigger, but it was still the same for me. Okay. But one thing I knew before I left and going back, it's only three guys that pop really care about. And I mean like his guys, I can't be mad at them. They won in five championships, four or five championships. So I can't be mad at them. But I knew when I, my first year there, when Tony Genobly came, that was his guys. Tony Genobly and Tim, that's his guys. Nothing comes before his guys, when and come before them, but these are his guys. There's nothing these guys can do to upset pop. If you, if you look at Genobly's career and you look at how many turnovers he has in his career, you will be appalled at how many turnovers he has in his career, like seriously. But one thing I knew from being there with Genobly, he wanted those guys, you got to live with that because he going to make 10 turnovers, but that same pass that he tried, he going to make it at the clutch at the right time of the game because he has the balls to do it. So he had to live with that. And I understand that going, I understood that going back. And Kawhi was there too when I went back. So I knew the culture had changed a little bit, but I knew my role was going to be the same because I knew the team didn't have no toughness. And as soon as I got that pop, it was like bring the nasty. He had it all in the, bring the nasty. I'm bringing you here to bring the nasty. And it was a different field, but I knew my role was the same. Now you mentioned Kawhi, you've gotten to know him well. What do you think of this whole situation with the Spurs? Well, well, it backfired on the Spurs. We've never seen a Spurs organization or teammates attack another teammate in the meeting. Tony's been hurt. He missed a lot of games. Genobly's been hurt a lot. Tim was hurt a lot. You never heard them come out to me and say, well, I don't think you hurt no more. You should be playing. You never heard them having any secret meetings and popping up on Tony and Genobly anybody else. So with Kawhi knowing this, y'all not finna handle me like that. We don't, y'all don't act like this. Now that y'all need me. Why do you think they did that? Because I think they did that because this is the first Superstar that Pop can't control. It's the first Superstar you can't, you, you and Genobly and Tony, y'all speak every day. You know their teams, y'all teams, y'all are family. Kawhi doing his own thing. This is the first Superstar that Pop got with Braids. It might not make sense to a lot of people, but you understand what I'm saying. This is the first Superstar he's had with Braids. Kawhi's one of those guys that all he wants to do is play basketball and go down as one of the best ever on both ends of the court. That's all he focused on. He don't want to talk about it. He don't want to make excuses, but Kawhi is super smart. So he know that they handled that situation all wrong because they needed him and they don't want to be out like they are now in the first round. They knew they couldn't win without him, so they panicked and handled it wrong. They know they handled it wrong. Now they're hoping that they can fix the situation, which I still think they can because Pop can make Kawhi, people don't know this, but he has another year. Yeah, he can make him sit in that misery for a year if he wants to. So is that how you think he'd fix it? Pop's not going to trade him. Pop's not going to trade him. Because he knows how good he is. He knows how good he is. So when you say sitting at misery, what do you mean? If Kawhi wants out and Pop don't want him out, you're going to sit here and play for me this year. But I feel like that situation could be fixed because Kawhi wants to win. But I just think the Spurs got to improve that situation. LeBron, something because what's there is not enough. Even with Kawhi, that's not enough. So do you think Pop put Tony and Manu in the meeting and all that? He was behind that? I played there four years, three and a half, four years. One thing I know about the Spurs organization, nothing goes on without Pop knowing. There's no way that no player is going to call a secret meeting without Pop knowing. They don't call secret meetings. I've never heard of anything like that. And you can't call it, they'll never call a meeting where it's a surprise to you know we are Tony. So it shouldn't be a surprise to your best player. There's a lot of things were happening unusual with there and it drew a lot of flags. But this is what the Spurs has been good at. There's a lot of stuff that's been going on there. They've been good at keeping it in house. But this is the first time they've been, they dissed a teammate publicly and it backfired on. Now you know Tony obviously better than me, but when I've been around him and interviewed him, he seems like he don't have an edit button. Like he just, and I don't know if it might be a cultural thing, you know, from France, but that he just says what he wants to say. Is it possible when he was talking about Kawhi, my injuries a hundred times worse than that, that he was just saying to him what was true and he wasn't looking at it like yo I'm really going at Kawhi or you think, you don't think that's possible. I think what I was, excuse me, I know that before he did that interview, somebody opened his back and put two Duracell batteries in there. Somebody put a battery in his back to say that. That ain't Tony. You're not the type of guy to go at another person. You're not a tough guy. You didn't go out against, you didn't go at nobody else on your organization since you've been there. What makes you think you can go, he's going just publicly and just all of a sudden, okay, I'm going to go at Kawhi now. Like all that stuff was rehearsed. Pop knew it all from the meeting to what Tony said. It was talked about. It was talked about. Do they have to offer him the Supermax? That's the first Olive branch? That's half a fix in the situation. If they don't offer it to him, you think he wants, if they, when they sit down and if Pop first words, ain't Supermax, that conversation going down here from the jump. What else do you have there? You have to give him the Supermax. You have to. One of the best two-way players. And if they don't, knowing that it's other teams that's ready to give it to him, he going to be out of there. If he doesn't go there, what do you think is the best fit? If he doesn't go back and stay there. Me knowing he's a California kid and I know he don't want to go east, I don't think he do. I don't think he want to be in cold. I don't think he would go east. I think he would come to California. Even if, the only reason I don't think the leg is because I don't think he want to go on the situation where he's losing. I think Kawhi still want to win and I think losing takes away from him being a two-way player. I think that's why he's looked at a certain way in San Antonio because he was a two-way player and the best at it and he was winning. That's a different look. I think he wants to keep that look. I just don't know where he can go to get it. Now you think if LeBron leaves Cleveland, San Antonio is where he should go? Me personally, I do. If he's ring chasing still. Yeah. I think if he just want to continue to be the best player in the world and not make the finals the next couple years, stay home. You know, just finish your career there. If you want to take advantage of the years you got left, which I think is what he's playing now. He's going to play as he's 45. I think that with him and Kawhi, even Lamarcus are adding another piece there with the young core guys they got, they can win two, three championships. And he's never played under a Hall of Fame coach in his life. He loves Pop. Pop loves him. LeBron is Pop's type of guy, family guy. Does everything the right way. You know, people always talk about LeBron and Jordan. I want my kids to be like LeBron. I want my kids to look up, I look up to LeBron, even though I'm older than him, because out of all the players that came around in the NBA history, he did one thing that every player failed at, bringing your friends on and putting them in positions to be successful. He's the only one done it right. I screwed it up. I'm one of the guys. I salute him because he's done everything right. He uses his voice when he needs to. This is something that we never talk about with MJ. LeBron is on it. We got to stop comparing LeBron and just put him on another level on his own level. And I'm not saying put him above Jordan, but he's just in a lane of his own. Just period. Just period. As a person, as a player, he's in the category of his own. Now LeBron, when he's on the team, you know, the talk is he runs the team. He's the GM. People joke he's the GM. He's the coach. How do you think it will work basketball wise with him and pop? I mean, 15 years of kind of doing your own thing, or at least 11 in Cleveland, what do you feel like it would be with him and pop? I think it would be a mutual respect for each other. I think LeBron is going to let pops be the coach he is, and during games or in games, pop is going to like Hawaii and LeBron to be stars and be leaders of the team. I don't think it'll ever be a problem because pop love guys that are students of the game. I've seen many of times where I've been on the team plenty of times where we come out of time out and pop is getting ready to walk. He'll give the clipboard to Tony Algenobly and he'll go back and sit down. So he loves his players having a basketball IQ and been able to lead and coach at the same time because it doesn't do anything but make the team better. Okay, okay. You mentioned LeBron bringing his guys, Rich Paul, Maverick Carter, Randy Mims along and really they set up now. Because I've heard stories, I even say horror stories about guys bringing their boys with them and sometimes their boys might even steal from them or something. Other times they mean well, but they end up living off the player and really taking a lot of his money, not even purposely, but he's just supporting you. What do you think, you know, is that kind of the norm for guys that bring their boys along and they don't, they think they're doing them a favor but they end up losing a lot of money because they taking care of these guys. It's a big problem for, especially guys come from where we come from because like I said, we want to make sure everybody's straight. We want to help everybody. You know, we want to make everybody a life better. And what people don't understand is me, I'm guilty too because I don't understand it. When I was giving all his money, I wasn't taught how to handle this money. I wasn't taught how to put myself in better situations. I'm just making a lot of money. It's just coming all at one time. So how could I help them be in situations when all I'm doing is giving them money? I'm not teaching them. I'm not taking them to the well. You know what I'm saying? I need to, I'm not taking them. I'm not showing them how to drink. I need to take them to the well and let them drink on their own. You know what I'm saying? I didn't do that. You know, you kind of handicapped them. You know, you think you're doing it right but you was never taught the way to do it right. And so we feel like, okay, we got all this money. Money going to help us. We're going to buy our way into success. We're going to buy our way into helping our friends. And you can't do that because your friends don't have the attitude, if they don't have the attitude of, well, I'm going to build something on my own so he can see that I want to bring to his table and we can eat together. That's the situation that LeBron friends were in. They went to school and got degrees. Okay, we know LeBron could put us in a situation. Let's show him we want it. We don't give, me personally, I didn't give my friends an opportunity. Yeah, they, I had them doing little jobs and stuff like that. And I tried to help them build stuff on their own but we was never taught the right way to do it. So I'm guilty of screwing it up a lot. And I owe my friends an apology because I did it thinking that money was going to make everybody successful and it don't work that way. And a lot 90% of guys in VA came in thinking that money was going to get everybody successful in a better life and it don't work that way. LeBron and his friends did it the right way. And that's why I forever salute him. So what would you suggest to guys coming in that want to do that for their friends? Just follow his blueprint or what? Well, follow his blueprint but keep the number low. It can't be 10, 15 guys. Maybe sit at the table with you and four other guys before you even get a check, before you play one NBA game. This is the best way to handle it. You sit out with those four guys, find out what they're interested in doing, but you got to know what they're good at. He might want to rap, but you can't rap. You might be good at promotion. You need to do this, bro. I know you want to rap, but you're going to be successful here. Those type of conversations need to happen from the jump. That'll avoid a lot of wasting money, that avoid you spending money on something that you want him to do, and he don't want to do it. Now you don't waste two, three million. You don't open the club because you want a club, but you want a friend to own it. But he and their party and more than doing business, this is not the job for him. You have to have those conversations and put guys in situations where you know they're going to succeed and stuff they want to do, and that's what LeBron did. Now we talked about you going to Indiana. What was the meta? We had meta on two weeks ago, and he was saying by his own admission, he was out of control in Indiana before the brawl. Me too. What was it like with y'all back then? I was into the blood stuff hard around that time, the gang banging stuff hard around that time. So even during, why are you in the NBA? Yeah, I think when I went to Indiana, I brought 10 of my friends with me, got them different apartments, I had some stand with me. I had about 10 guys out there, the worst decision. Some of them were family, some of them were friends. But this was my first big contract. Remember when I was expected to get my big contract, I got through one of the championships of San Antonio, but Pop didn't pay me. He tried to low ball me. So I went to Atlanta for one year, and I think after the second half of the season, I was sixth in the league in scoring. So I got my money from Indiana that year, but I went there just with the wrong attitude. I'm just getting all this money. I remember when I first walked in the locker room in Indiana, I tied a red band down around my locker, and it was there half the season. I remember I told somebody a story recently that Donnie Wash came in there and told me, look, Jack, you got to take that down, bro. Enough is enough. I didn't understand what I was doing. I realized it when Donnie Wash, because I respect the world out of Donnie Wash, and he broke it down to me in all sorts of ways. I understood that I was out of control. We all were out of control. We used to go to cities, the whole team and the clubs part. We were definitely out of control. And if social media was out that day, a lot of our careers would have been messed up. Westbrook, what's your take on him? Are you getting a lot of criticism? I love him. I love him to death. I love his passion for the game you can't teach. I mean, he's a rare guy. I don't think Billy Donovan is a coach for him. I think Billy Donovan is terrified of him. He's not the type of coach that Russell needs. Russell needs a coach that can pull his reins back a little bit. The offense they ran this year was the best offense to run to not win. You didn't have Mellow posting up any. I love Russ, man, to average a triple double two years in a row. How can you not love a guy that wants it and that plays that hard? People have to understand how hard it is to get a triple double, let alone to average it for 82 games. This kid is special, man. A guy I would love to play with. I love to play with, and I would love to go to war with him and have his back. Now, he mentioned after their series, it was during the series with Utah, when he got into it with the fans, the type of stuff he was hearing from fans, how much negative stuff, and obviously fans from other teams going to boo you and say stuff, but does it really get nasty at times? Oh, yeah. I mean, welcome to my world. Nobody got boo more than when Mayor Ron, especially after the brawl, everywhere we went, but sometimes it should be motivation. You know what I'm saying? Because a lot of times when they get to talk to me, that get me going. I love shutting the crowd up. I did that a lot of times in my career. That's the best fill in the world, shutting you on the road and shutting the crowd up. But Utah, for sure, I've heard racial slurs. Like I said, I played there, put it like this. Let me ask you a question. Let me just reverse the reverse world. If LeBron James was playing in Toronto last night, a guy who's in TV camera, so every time the team shoots a free throw, you see this guy, he has a life-size cardboard cutout of LeBron with LeBron's face on it in a jail uniform holding it up. The first time that came on camera, the second time, they ain't be able to tell somebody to take that down. Toronto Rappers and Cleveland, somebody, you got to take that down. A guy had that up in the playoffs, under the goal, the whole game with my face on it. Nobody said nothing. Right? So he wasn't, I saw it, my mom was heard about it. I went and signed it for the guy. After that, let me tell you why. Because he wasn't the guy screaming racial slurs. He was just a die-hard Utah fan. So he was honestly just being a fan. He wasn't trying to demean me in any way. He didn't say anything disrespectful. And we kind of laughed about it after because, think about it, I was arrested. I did do something stupid to get arrested. So I went and signed it. And many of them had a great conversation. But during the time in Utah, it's other fans that are totally out of line. I hope your kid die. All kind of stuff. And it's not just in Utah. The racial stuff, yeah. But the other stuff about your kids and your family, that's happened in a lot of rings. I heard so much stuff in Detroit. Oh yeah, Detroit was crazy. But people don't understand this. I'm loved in Detroit. Oh, I'm always in Detroit. So it had nothing to do with the city. It was more of that situation with the guy through the beer. But you have to have tough skin. But in Utah, yeah, I mean, it gets bad there. It definitely gets bad. Two athletes, Dante DiVincenzo from Villanova, who helped him win the championship this year. I like his game. Yeah, yeah. He's nice. It'll be interesting to see what he can do in the league. Right. Josh Allen, football player. Yes. They recently had issues where they had tweeted the n-word years ago while they were in high school, I think. And you had an interest in taking, at least I think it was on DiVincenzo. You didn't have that much of a problem with it. Can you, at least I think I heard you talking about that. Yeah, because it's different. Okay. Me, I'm a grown man. I'm 40 years old. I tell people I never made an all-star game. I never made first team or NBA, nothing like that. But I'm first team all common sense. Okay. I grew up around a guy named John Bittix. He was probably my best white friend. I used to love him because he stayed a little bit out the hood. He had a pool and all that. But he grew up around black people. I had other guys that live in the projects that's white that go through more stuff than my black friends that's in the ghetto that's around. He's probably the only white person there. He probably say it because we probably called him that 200 times by talking to him because he's like our brother. So I know the difference. If a white guy that grew up with is calling me the n-word saying like, what's up my n, then somebody calling me the n-word. It's a difference. I know when it's racial and when it's the term of endearment because that's what we use it for as a term of endearment. So if it's said to me by somebody I don't know, I know if they're being racial or not. Because if you don't know me, you have no reason to be saying it to me. So the guys that are comfortable saying it to me that I grew up with, they understand why they're comfortable because I've been around you my whole life. I know you're not saying it demeaning my race. And the people, if you're an adult and you don't know the difference between somebody saying it as a term of endearment or to belittle you and belittle your race, then you have the problem. No, you make a good point. I'm of the impression, I wish we, I wish, you know, look, if you black, you got family and friends that say it. It's just, it's like homie. You can't help it. Yeah, exactly. I got, but I was called as a kid. That was our name. Everybody was called that. It wasn't, you know, it wasn't wrong. It wasn't nothing wrong. I'm proud to be that to this day. I'm proud to be that. I mean, I'm of the impression. I wish we as African Americans would stop using it. Obviously, I don't want to hear whites use it. Right. But I do understand context. I understand it's worse if a white person used, it's different if a white person used it and a black person used it. Totally different. Even though I don't really like hearing the blacks say it. Right. I'd rather us call each other brother. You know, that was, that was my thing. And that word is getting bigger now because we all trying to get away from saying, you know, exactly. But I'm with you. I do see what you're saying because a word is defined by its context. Right. And when I see a Kendrick Lamar concert and he got the crowd, which is mostly white, chanting it were exactly like encouraging it or, you know, Travis Scott or somebody encouraging it, or we write the lyrics. We want people to know the lyrics, sing our songs, buy our records. And we saying it, I'm just saying, like you said, every time a white person saying it, they ain't saying it as a racist comment. A lot of times they saying it like we, and you know, white people will call white people that like like cast that grew up that way. I've heard, I've heard that before. Exactly. Yeah, or blacks will call whites that. Right. And so again, I don't really want to hear it from anybody, but I think we being disingenuous if we got some of our rappers and celebrities encouraging whites to say it at concerts and through our music. And then if they say it or tweet it, we act like they automatically mean it in a racist way. And that's what they can't do. You can't say it in your rhymes. You can't expect them to buy your music. You can't expect them to be at your concerts and not say it. Like, at the same time, you have to have something, you have to have the smarts and the intelligence and the common sense to know when it's said in the wrong way. And if you don't know that, then the problem is with you. It's not the person that's saying it is the problem is really with you. Yes, it's a complicated, complex discussion. Yes, it is. So quickly, you know, why is it called it? Because none of us living today really has been through getting called it, getting called that word and meaning that you are the scum of the earth. None of us is out here picking cotton and being called that word. So it's a different time. You know, it's a different time. Yeah, playoffs, Golden State, they look good. You got them clearly. I mean, I got them clearly. I mean, especially stuff coming back like that. I mean, these guys, if they lose, they're beating themselves. Everybody talking about LeBron, they're struggling. They're struggling in the East. And I don't think the teams in the East are experiencing enough to beat these. The Golden State, the way they're playing right now, I don't see nobody beating them. You got the Cavs in the East, though. Well, this is my thing. Indiana helped the Cavs. They gave them that series. Indiana had that series beat. Toronto starting off on a bad note. They was up 20-something points and ended up giving Cleveland the game. The reason why I feel like Cleveland is going to make it to the finals is because they've been playing terrible. Indiana gave them the series and Toronto gave them that game last night. LeBron has been playing so well. They're starting to give Jarrah Smith, Kevin Love, time to catch a rhythm. If that happens, they're going to blow everybody out and be in the finals. So that's what's starting to happen. I see Cleveland getting out of the East again. My man, great stuff. Anytime, bro. Thanks for having me. Definitely. All right, here we are back for another episode. We missed it last week. Welcome back to the West Coast, Christopher. Yeah, it's good to be back, man. You've been working out, huh? It's good to be back. I think there's guns on my man. Knocked down, Jay. My man, Jason McIntyre, you look excited. I am, dude. You always look excited, though. Playoffs are in full swing. We had great topics. Should we start with your guy, LeBron? We can start wherever you want, man. LeBron was awful last night in game one against the Raptors. He was awful by his standards. There's no by his standards. No. He had set the bar way up here. Was he awful or not? He was awful by his standards. Not by his standards. He had 26 points. He had 13 assists or rebounds. 11 assists. He had a triple double. He hits the shot to send it into overtime at tied at 105. He defends the all-star point guard in the fourth quarter and overtime and holds him to three points. Now, was he LeBron James at his best? No. Was he close to his best? No. But awful. LeBron James was good. He was human. And his teammates finally stepped up, but come on. So I'll get to the question, Mr. Defending LeBron. You got LeBron Jersey under that? He was very good. That's all I'm saying. But the point is when LeBron is that bad, two for 18 on jumpers, one of six from the line, one of eight from deep. And the Raptors had a double-digit lead in the fourth quarter. I think this series is over. They choked. I think your guy Dwayne came. Where do the guy picking? I did pick the Raptors. Why did you do that? Because I think LeBron is tired. Let's stay there. Okay. Let's stay there. Why in the world would you pick the Toronto Raptors to beat the Cleveland Cavaliers in the playoffs? It had nothing to do with the Toronto Raptors. It was all about LeBron. LeBron is tired. The fatigue is real. He could do it against Indiana. He had no help from a supporting cast. I thought Toronto's depth and LeBron's fatigue would mean Toronto would win the series. It was a terrible mistake on my part. I bought into your guy Dwayne Casey. Can you say wrong again? Hey, let me look into the camera. Dwayne Casey, who he thought was the coach of the year, is a gigantic fraud. I had Dwayne Casey. That was one of the worst coaching jobs in the fourth quarter at home. Let me tell you. I had coach of the year. Ever. Stop it. Oh my gosh. Stop it. What do you want me to start with? Dwayne Snyder was my coach of the year. Brad Stevens was followed by a five second violation. That's his fault. What about the execution? What were they running, Chris? I don't know exactly. Did you rip Billy Donovan? Has he been a great coach? Billy Donovan has no control. Russell Westbrook runs that shot. Why not? You the coach. Russell Westbrook makes the money, calls the shot. That's an insult right there. If you tell me that coach has no control, you the coach have control. We'll get your job. We'll get to Russell Westbrook. I just can't believe you. Casey was unbelievable bad down the stretch. To win this year. They were running no offense. And by the way, just to cook, just choked job, Valentinus missed five layups in the fourth quarter. Five. I mean, this was embarrassing. It bought a wide open three. Clang. And then defensively, don't get me started. Okay. You don't leave Cal Corver. You don't leave J.R. Smith. Those guys get hot. It's over because then LeBron gets help. Indiana stuck with them. Indiana gave Toronto the blueprint. Let LeBron have his shots. Let him wear down. LeBron took 30 shots. He missed a ton of them. 26 points on 30 shots. The defense was awful. Toronto lost the series. It would not surprise me if these frauds get swept. Sorry, go ahead. I'm just fired up because I'm wrong. I was wrong about Toronto. I'm an idiot. Back me in the comments. If that were the case, I mean you'd be fired up every, every topic. I'm always right. I am often right. When? You, you, I can't look. So are, is Toronto going to win a game in this series? Probably Cleveland will probably give them a game. Probably give them a game. I mean, look, I'm not the Toronto backer. You are. Okay. You don't, don't be laughing because I say they might get a game. I went into this series thinking Cleveland would win it in six. They, it may take six. It may go five. It may be a sweep, whatever. A gentleman sweep. But what I can't believe is why in the world you would even pick the Raptors. Let me tell you a little something about NBA basketball. Oh, here we go. Education. It takes superstars to win at the high level. Every blue moon, there's an aberration. And there's a team that doesn't have superstars, maybe once every 15 years or so. There's a team that doesn't have superstars that goes really deep. But the Toronto Raptors are a great regular season team because they play hard. Contrary to what you said, and the way in case he made some bad mistakes, but we Greg Popovich has made mistakes. Everybody has made mistakes. He is a good coach and it shows in his record. They are a great regular season team. They got a couple of stars. They got depth and they're well coached. But in the playoffs, you need superstars. Okay, time out, let me punch your holes in that real quick. And they don't have it, so for you to eat it. You don't have anybody. They don't have any stars right now. They knocked off your superstar, Yanis, in the first round. The Oklahoma City Thunder have two superstars, Paul George and Russell Westbrook. They got knocked off by Quinn Snyder in his great system. Donovan Mitchell is very good. Donovan Mitchell, don't they have a star? Donovan Mitchell is a rookie. He ain't no superstar. But he's a buddy star. He's a buddy star. But they knocked off a superstar, your MVP last year, Russell Westbrook. You're talking about first round isn't deep in the playoffs. You getting excited about Boston because they won a round? I mean, chill with that. All right, we've seen mediocre teams get to the second round. No, but you just said superstars. Yeah, and that's what I'm saying. Where's Yanis? Win deep. Russell Westbrook, two years in a row. I'm talking about conference finals. I'm talking about NBA finals. Well, we're in the second round, so. Don't bring Boston to me because they won a first round over a Milwaukee team that's spinning its wheels. Dude, you just said Yanis was one of the top five players in the league. You can say that all season. You've been saying that on this podcast all season. Yo, back me up. First of all, I haven't done the top five on top five players in the league. So I have not. I like Yanis, but I haven't gone. I haven't said that. All right. I haven't ranked my top five. Maybe you had him as one of the best young players in the league. You love Yanis. I do like Yanis. Your Raptors are in trouble. My Raptors do not associate me with that team. Who did you get? I made a mistake. I made a mistake. Are we not? I'm human. I'm going to make some mistakes. I'm human. I made a mistake. I'm wrong. I'm an idiot. I like that. No, no, no. All right. Let's move on to the next. Are you ready to move on? Or are you going to find a word on these frauds? Cavs are the superior. They have the best player by far. If he gets any help whatsoever, then they're going to demolish the Raptors in short order. Can I use the word clown show to describe the Raptors? That's what it was in the fourth quarter. I'm just shocked. You're leading by 10 at home. Where's your heart, man? Where's your loyalty? Stick by your team. Stick by your team. You want to see heart? Here we go. You picked the wrap. That was dumb. It's over. I won't belabor it anymore. All right. Let's move on to the next topic. One of your favorite players in the league, Chris Russell Westbrook. Buh-bye. Knocked out of the playoffs again. First round. I love how we took 43 shots in Game 6. I can't stop laughing at Russell Westbrook. I actually wrote for the big lead this week that I believe the Thunder should explore the idea of trading Russell Westbrook. And here's why. We just saw the Clippers give Blake Griffin a ton of money. We're going to build around Blake. Three months into that. This ain't working. Blake's getting old. They trade him. Russell Westbrook turns 30 in November. The man cannot shoot. In the postseason, the last two years, under 40% from the field, under 37% from three. He's a scoring machine. We get that. But you need systems to work. They just got embarrassed by Utah and Quinn Snyder. I believe when you look at the luxury tax numbers, the top two teams are Golden State and Cleveland. They're probably going to be in the finals, right? They have been for three or four years. Number three on the luxury tax, Oklahoma City. They can't get out of the first round. I think they've got to look hard inside. The fourth and fifth teams on luxury tax are Washington and Portland. And all we talk about is let's blow those guys up. Why aren't we talking about blowing up OKC? Paul George is gone. It's about to get blown up. Paul George is gone. He out. They can't afford Jeremy Grant. You're stuck with Mello. Maybe. Mello says he doesn't want to come up to me. He's going to be making 35 million next year, then 38 million, then 41 million. The dude can't shoot. His athleticism is going to deteriorate. Now that he's hitting 30, I would trade Russell Westbrook. Your thoughts, Mr. Broussard? Who are you training for? Oh, so you want to break down trades? Well, you made a luscious proposal in that article. But your thoughts, if... Who would Oklahoma City be getting back for Russell Westbrook? I would look back to A, cut salaries. Obviously, you don't want these long-term names. Names. Okay, here we go. My trade proposal was to the LA Clippers. You send Russ home. Names. You get Tobias Harris and Danilo Gallinari. I know they're not stars. That's going to satisfy people in the heartland. Well, I mean, they're already out in the first round. Tobias Harris, who I like, is a good player, but not a star like Russ. If you can get their two lottery picks they've got this year, 12 and 13. Maybe you can get Colin Sexton in the draft. Let's become the Phoenix Suns. You might as well be. Let's become the Orlando Magic. You're getting bounced in the first round anyway. What's the cost? There's no value in that. Well, there's not a value when you're the third in luxury tax and your owner's got to write millions of checks. Let me share something with you, son. Okay, fire away. So first of all, do you like the idea of trading Russ? No. Okay. No. All right, defend it. Should the Phoenix Suns have... Was the Charles Barkley era in Phoenix worthless? Charles Barkley took Phoenix to the finals. Did he not? Yeah. Okay. Is Russ getting out of the first round? Did Russ not help them get to the finals before? Hold on, hold on. Did he? Well, like six years ago with Kevin Durant. But James Harden? Yes or no? Yeah, six years ago. That's what your argument is. Was the Allen Iverson era in Philadelphia worthless? Allen Iverson got them to the finals. It was great. I don't even want to have to ask the same question. You're comparing apples to grates. No, I'm not. Because Allen Iverson got to one finals. Russell Westbrook got to one finals. If you look at Allen Iverson's career, other than that year in the finals, they were second round out, first round out, sometimes not even. My first one was number one. They got them to the finals. Barkley was number one. One turn. Russ was number two on that team. Kevin Durant was a number one on that team. Patrick Ewing. Was that era wasted? Was that a waste? Oh, you're comparing 1990s back about to now? Answer me. Was that a waste? Oh my God, no. Was Steve Nash's time in Phoenix a waste? They didn't get to the finals. There's a great run. So was it a waste? You're comparing winners to losers. Answer. Why is Steve Nash a winner? Steve Nash won two MVP awards and got them to, I believe, the conference semi-finals and the conference finals, right? They got to, with Omari Stoudemire, Sean Merritt, they never got to the NBA finals. Okay. Russell can't get out of the first round. He's been further than Steve Nash. He had Victor Oladipo. It didn't work. He had Paul George. It didn't work. Victor Oladipo. What else are you going to do now? Listen to me. Victor Oladipo is an all-ended player. Do not disrespect him. No, your argument is way off. First of all, you tell me Iverson and Barkley got teams to the finals. Yeah. So did Westbrook. Oh, snap. Then when I, hold on. Then when I bring up Steve Nash, you say Steve Nash was a winner, but Russell Westbrook's a loser, but Russell Westbrook has been further in the playoffs than Steve Nash. No. And don't give me Westbrook had Durant because Steve Nash had a prime of Murray Stardomire, prime Sean Marion, Joe Johnson, and still never got to the finals. So your logic is off. I think you're dealing with stuff that's so old. You're calling out what my point is this. A franchise is not unsuccessful. An era is not worthless just because you don't win a championship. Utah has never never won a championship. Is that a worthless friend? Should they just serve us? Hold on, hold on. Should they just get rid of the friend? They went to the finals. They went to the finals 20 years ago. With Carl Malone and John Sanchez. Indiana has never won a championship. Yeah. What happened with Paul George? He said I'm out of here. They traded him. They're starting over. My point, son, is this. You sunned me. Okay. Everybody's not now. Okay. So you can't come out and say this. It's a business. Everybody is not going to win a championship. There are successful franchises that have never, I just brought up to Utah, Indiana, that have Phoenix, that have never won a championship. It's a business. It's about putting butts in the seats too. Oklahoma may never win a championship. So it's not about losing money. They may never be. You talk about business. They're losing money because of the luxury tax. You can decrease your payroll. What you have right now is a super duper star. You have a First Ballad Hall of Famer. You have a future icon. You have a guy that the state loves. They see him as loyal. They see him as sticking around when everybody else wanted to leave. As long as he is there, they will have sell out crowds. And most likely, and most likely, they will make the playoffs. Most likely. Now, my point, there are, look. So how are you going to build? What are you fixing this? Dumpster fire. In Memphis, how far did they get with Zach and Mark Gissau and Mike? I think they got out of the first round. They love those guys. Because they know we're going to be in the playoffs every year. We're going to be competitive and we're going to have hope. That's it. Is there open? Okay. Yes or no? Yes or no? Is there open? Yes. Yes. As long as you have a superstar, there can be hope. You, but this is what you want. This is what you want. You want Oklahoma City to get rid of its superstar to the fans' love and become New Orlando Magic. No. Become the Phoenix Suns. Become the Sacramento Kings. Why can't they become the Utah Jazz? Utah lost Gordon Hayward in free agency. Drafted wisely. Utah didn't go to the bottom. Their coach is incredible. Exactly. They were good. Then they lost their superstar. Wow. Do Utah, Jay, how are they in better shape than Oklahoma City? Well, they got out of the first round last year. They're in the second round this year. Are they going to win a championship? I don't know. Donovan Mitchell could lead that. I'm doing a championship. Are they going to win a championship? They will win a championship before OKC. That's 100,000% accurate. They just beat them in the playoffs. My point is they're essentially the same place. Utah is a good franchise. Hold up, hold up. Utah, hold on. The Carmelon Stockton era. Was that a waste? That was awesome. They went to the finals. Did they win a ring? Did they win a ring? That was the first round. No. My point to you is, don't tell me just because a guy's not going to lead you to a championship that you should jettison. So Chris, it sounds like, Chris, you're like, if you win a ring, great. If you don't, you're in the same as lost in the first round, drafting in the lottery, or losing the finals. Is that what it is? No. What I'm saying is I would rather be a team like Oklahoma City that has a superstar, that fans love, that's going to sell out the arena, that's going to make us relevant, and we get to the playoffs every year than the Orlando Magic, the Phoenix Suns, the Sacramento Keys. What about the Utah Jets? Hold on, you're looking at, Utah is mediocre too. They about to get swept or beaten five, okay? That's real exciting. At least they're in the second round. So what? My point is, you acting like Philadelphia is the norm. Philadelphia is the aberration. Most of these teams go to the bottom, get a bunch of lottery picks, and stay at the bottom. Most of them stay at the bottom. How long has Charlotte been out of the playoffs? How long has Detroit been out of the playoffs? I mean, I'm just saying, I would rather be relevant and have a superstar, and I'm going to ride this Russell Westbrook era. All right. And I'm not going to wrap up on this. So that's what I'm saying. So they're going to lose Paul George. We can agree on that? Yeah, go ahead, Paul. Are they making the playoffs next year the same roster? No, Paul George. They can. Did they do it last year without Paul George? Can we make a wager? Can we make a wager? Hold on, did they do it last year without Paul George? Yeah, they did. OK, so why can't they do it next year? I will bet you right here and now on the show. I don't even know who the Lakers are getting. They will make the playoffs and have a better record than OKC next year. I'm going blind. That's foolish. Oh, yeah. OK, you're scared. I'm scared. Scared the Lakers. I'm the scared. All right, Chris. Bruce, sorry. Let's wrap up. Final question here. Gosh, this has been good. It's good to have him back. Charles Barkley. Can I call him your guy or not really? You can call him my guy. Got a cell phone number? I don't like that. You guys tight? So Charles Barkley. Yeah, I made some comments last night after Draymond Green mixed it up with Rajon Rondo. Did I say that right? Rajon? OK. Rajon, Rajon. He said, I don't have the exact quote, but it was something along the lines of somebody should hit him and then he went on to say, I would punch him in the face. I want to punch him in the face. I want to punch him in the face. And people seem to be freaking out because that's what they do on social media, Chris. I personally don't think Barkley crossed the line. I think he's a, you know, this is what he does. This is his brand. He's shock, jock, entertainment, former tough guy in the NBA who's famously gotten many fights in the league. And this is what he's paid to do. Be an entertainer. He's paid to say he wants to punch people. He's paid to say provocative things that get people tuning into the show that wins Emmy Awards. That's what he does. That was, that was, that was too far, man. Why? You do not go on television and say you want to punch another man. If you're a broadcaster, a man you cover, you're saying you want to punch him. Unless you're going to go punch him. Was he not going to laugh? Draymond was absolutely right. Yeah, Draymond was going to laugh. Unless Barkley is going to see Draymond and if the Golden State, which they will, gets to the conference finals, he will see Draymond plenty because TNT will be doing those games live from the arena. I want to see Barkley, and I like Barkley. He's not. But I want to see him go up to Draymond and punch him. He's not. He's on talk. Even go up to Draymond and act bad, jump bad. You ain't got to punch him. Wonder why you're saying it? That's what his job is. Say provocative things. Why didn't Shaq say it? Why didn't Kenyanya even say it? Another network who's saying provocative stuff going after Kevin Durant. I don't want to say his name on the phone. Who has said they want to punch him? He didn't say punch, but he said stuff about Kevin Durant. I'm not going to mention the guy's name. That's what these guys do. They go on TV. Who has gotten violent? They're not going to get violent, but you go on TV and say inflammatory stuff. Oh, stop. That's what they do. Has anybody at this network ever said they want to punch a guy they cover? Have you ever said that? I've never said that. That's not my DNA. I've never been in a real, real fight where I'm throwing fists. That's surprising. I can be combative, but I'm smart. Nobody ever wins a fight. Okay, Charles Barkley knows that. Do you know you win fights? No, you don't, because you win the fight you might get arrested. You do. As a kid, you win fights. All right? You win fights? Yeah, I just had some fights. Huh? You got some wins? I throw these things. You win something, you lose something, but Barkley, look, I like Chuck. And you're right. He's off the chain. He says what he, you know, different things. And I love it. It's great. But this time he went too far and he needs to apologize. You think, oh, yes. You don't do that again, unless you're going to see Draymine and do something about it. But other than that, you need to apologize. You don't go say you're going to hit another man. It's a grown man with a family. You don't go and say you're going to hit them unless you really go back and up. Oh, he does have a family. You're right. Yeah, he does. I mean, just don't, don't go there. Like you can criticize his game. You can even say, you know, I'm not a fan. I don't really like his antics or anything. But to say you want to hit him. What NBA player do you currently want to punch? None. Do you? I guess you want to punch Westbrook. No, I do. I would not want to punch Westbrook. Obviously, you never got in the fight. Well, I mean, why would I want to punch a human being? This is what I don't say this shock value garbage that Charles Barkley says. Barkley, you said Barkley doesn't want to hit anybody either. He doesn't want to hit it. So why'd he say it? He's a 50-year-old man. So why'd he, that's my point. Because he's paid to say crazy wacky stuff. No, you're not paid to say you're going to hit somebody. Guess what? Everybody's talking about it. Charles Barkley's name is in the headlines. And they love that, man. His name is always in the headlines. We would be talking about TNT. They went Emmys, their great show. Whether he says he's going to hit somebody or not. That was too far. You don't have to say you're going to hit somebody. And you know I'm right, especially being the pacifist that you've been in your whole life. I wanted to give you a victory since I whooped your butt on the Raptors and Russell Westbrook. Can't wait for the comments on this, Chris. He lives for your comments. I want you to not know it's sad. Hey, I see some producer, a whole list of them. We're going to air them at some point, right? I mean, we got a lot of good comments. It's my show. Relax, relax. All right. Hey, we glad you joined us for Knock Down, Jay. Oh, that's pretty good. Come on, Chris. Look, we do get along. Hey, we're going to talk Steph Curry next week. Some crazy stuff comes out of his mouth. I text him during games. It's fun. Thank you for tuning in to another episode of In The Zone. We had a tremendous interview with Steve Jackson. Oh, he was awesome. The top five, of course, through the roof again. And then Knock Down, Jay. Go to Apple Podcast. Go to SoundCloud. Leave us five stars. And leave us a great comment. And believe it, your boy will be reading them. I will, probably. All right. So we'll see you guys next week on In The Zone.