 Good afternoon. I will start a talk today about using agency collaboration and how to grow the pie. It was about six years ago, two years ago, that Dries Bajtard did a call at DrupalCon in London to focus on Drupal marketing. I still remember the reaction from all developers in the room like, oh my god, what is he talking about? Marketing, listen up, developers. And I came to the conclusion that it is difficult for most agencies who are staffed by developers to think from a marketing perspective instead of a development perspective. So in the Netherlands we came to the conclusion that we had to organize ourselves and do Drupal marketing in a professional way. And I will tell you all about it, how to structure it, how to deal with it, and how you can set up a marketing initiative in order to grow the pie. My name is Michel van Velde. I'm the secretary of the Dutch National Foundation of Drupal Service Providers. I also am a member of the Dutch Drupal for Gov initiative, owner and founder of a digital agency of 40 plus people. Yes, I have a marketing background. I'm a business owner and I do not have a development background. Fortunately, my companion is here in the room. He has a development background, so that's my... So if you start asking questions about development, he's the guy, not me. I'm also the organizer of monthly Drupal cafes and I'll tell you all about it and how to organize those events and why we do it. I'm the co-lead organizer of several Drupal gems, which is the biggest Drupal event in the Netherlands. So you can follow me via Twitter or send me messages via Michel van Velde if you have any questions later on or tomorrow. So you can find me and I'll share you all my knowledge with you. So what are we going to talk about? Why Drupal marketing? Why is it important? And what can you do to make a stand against proprietary service providers? And what can you do to make a stand against professional marketing organizations? What are the basics of Drupal marketing and what can you achieve with it? And how to organize your social media and how to organize events. And I will tell you all about that later on. The second part of the presentation is how to set up a local foundation and why it is necessary to set up a foundation. Rules and regulations that come with it, code of conduct, how to work closely with the competition, because that's what it's all about, build a foundation, share profits and there's room for questions afterwards. So why Drupal marketing? Currently there is a fierce and I mean very fierce competition going on the market. We have Sidecore, we have CQ5, that's Hippo, Tridian, GX, Typeo3, do not underestimate the power of WordPress and lots more. And we're all competing in the same market and it is necessary to create, I would say it, to set up a marketing initiative as agencies together. And why is this? When you look at, for example, Sidecore or Tridian, those are proprietary software companies that have a marketing team. Close tools agencies do not have marketing teams at all in general. So may I ask a question? Which of you are agency owners in the room? Who spends marketing budget on promoting Drupal? That's a few. And if I say that on average, and I mean on average, the large organizations spend 5% of their total revenue on marketing. Who is spending 5% or plus on marketing of Drupal? That's what I guessed and that's where the problem lies. We have to make a stand with Drupal and organize ourselves because we came from a developer background. We started building websites and it became a success. Drupal became a success. But then again now we're competing in a market with, and I can tell them again, Sidecore, CQ5, Hippo in the Netherlands. And they have a well-oiled marketing machine and Drupal has not. Well fortunately, currently you have Acquia who is spending a lot of money on Drupal marketing. But it's necessary for us agencies to do more Drupal marketing as well. And I'll tell you later on how we can do that. And I would like to make a connection with, for example, Coca-Cola. If I say the word Coca-Cola, you probably think of a red can with a brown sugary liquid in it. And when Christmas comes, you'll see advertisements with Santa Claus, you know, riding around. And you probably have a vision of that, this whole Christmas feeling. And there's a lot of people say, hey, it's Christmas coming again because I see this Coca-Cola advertisements again. If I tell you that Santa Claus was invented by Coca-Cola, probably a lot of you don't know that. The funny thing is that Coca-Cola created brand values and created their brand around a sugary water. But if you now see that they linked themselves with the birth of Christ and an event that's celebrated all around the world, you can cross over to Drupal. And what do you think of when you think of Drupal? Well, we think of a blue druplicon. We, as shop owners, we think of CMS and all developers think of code. But what are the brand values of Drupal? How does a potential buyer look at Drupal currently? They probably have a lot of doubts. They probably have no idea what Drupal is, and we have to tell them. We have to tell what are the brand values of Drupal? Why are the benefits? And why should you choose Drupal over all those other platforms? And there is a lot of work to be done. The reason why we should focus on Drupal marketing is, in effect, growing the pie. And I can tell you why this is necessary. In the Netherlands, when I started my agency, I was the first one to adopt Drupal on a professional level. Within three or four months, there were five players. And for the first two or three years, there was no competition. Well, that was great. There was a lot of work. And when there was an RFP and they said, yeah, we have two or three other competitors invited, we knew exactly who they were. That was great. Currently, about seven years later, there are over 100 vendors selling Drupal. And now we have no idea who the competition is. So the competition on our local ground has changed. But the competition towards the proprietary vendors has changed as well. I will tell you more about that later on in the Blue and Red Ocean theory. Community building. If you have really strong brand, and Drupal has all the capabilities of becoming a seriously strong brand, and within the Drupal community, it is already a strong brand, there is a lot of work to be done. And what you see, it can grow the talent pool. Because if everybody starts, if every developer in the world starts to know about Drupal and all the brand values that Drupal already has, we can grow the developer pool. And there's a lot of shop owners here, and we're all looking for talent, so Drupal marketing can help creating a bigger talent pool. So more coders also means more code. So that benefits Drupal as well. So now I'm going to tell you about the Blue and Red Ocean theory. Who knows the Blue and Red Ocean theory? Okay, just a couple of them, that's nice. Okay, so we started off, you know, seven years ago as an agency. I started an agency. And the funny thing was, I was swimming in a blue ocean together with my partner. And it was great, you know, no competition whatsoever. But Drupal became successful. And then what we call, you know, more fishes came into this blue ocean, you know, and seven years later, it became crowded, you know. And when there's a lot of fish in the pool, the sharks come in, you know, and they want a bit of the pie as well. And the sharks start competing each other. And that's where it becomes bloody, and a blue ocean becomes a red ocean. What you can do is you can swim out to one of the corners of that blue ocean and become an expert in a field of work. You can choose, like the commerce guys did, and you're going to purely focus on commerce or some other expertise, field of expertise. But you can also start competing on your own on ground. So if you look at here, you can compete in an existing market, because that's what's happening. You can try to beat the competition. And if you want to beat the competition, well, you can get bloody. You've got to be careful. You can look at existing demand, you know, and can tune in on that. And you have to make a value-cost trade-off. You know, are you focusing on price? Are you going to lower your margins? Are you going to stay on top of the field? How are you going to do that? There's discussions you have to make within a red ocean. You can also steer away, as I said, to another blue ocean. Start something completely new. And that's what's happened as well. We also already see that some competition is moving over to a blue ocean, you know, moving away from Drupal. But what if we grow the pie, you know, make it bigger? Then the competition has a lot still to eat. We don't fight each other. And the only thing is, instead of beating and fighting each other, you know, create a red ocean is working closely together to grow the pie. So that's what we're here for today. My goal here today is ignite an idea. I hope that the idea that we've launched in the Netherlands, this professional Drupal foundation, is being copied to other countries. I've been talking to people from Germany already, and I hope this is copied. I hope you find this interesting and see how we can grow the pie, not only in the Netherlands, but also abroad. And we love pie, especially when it's a Drupal pie. So why Drupal marketing? Demand for independent professionals in terms of present PR and support grows. Present PR support, you know, as you said, you spend less than 5% on Drupal marketing. Less than 5%. Maybe just a little bit to promote yourself on your local market. So present PR is a great necessity. We've done a survey in the Netherlands, and we found out that compared to the closed source vendors, there was a maximum of 5% of articles written about CMSs were about Drupal. 95% were about closed source vendors. That's not good. And so it's a necessity to focus on promoting the brand via present PR. Drupal as a brand also needs to be supported and protected. We know that closed source vendors are trying to, well, how do you say it, debug or attack the brand of Drupal. It's open source. It's not safe. So when there is an exploit found within Drupal, they send out press releases to large government agencies to tell them, look, here, it's not safe. Don't use it. And there's nobody within the Drupal community that stands up and says, hey, listen up. It is safe. And trying to debunk that again. So professional organization in terms of present PR is a necessity. Drupal promotion by Drupal agencies itself, not just the present PR from agencies like you, is a necessity because you are the experts. You know anything about Drupal. And I mean anything, everything. Not just what is Drupal on a macro level. No, you know it's down to the code. So we need your help to get it done. We have to create brand loyalty. You know, a lot of people, you know Coca-Cola. Think of Christmas. Think of Santa Claus, the Red Can. And when you stand in front of, when you're standing in the supermarket, you probably automatically pick up a Coke and not this weird other soda you've never heard of. So this brand loyalty we can use, you know, to promote Drupal. We need a strategy. We need to conquer and prosper. That's our goal. So there's a lot of international initiatives already on Drupal.org. There's BANAs and community logos available. There's webinars. There's the Drupal Media Kit. There's a lot of case studies already to be found on the internet. And there's awards. Not a lot of them. There's a few awards. But the funny thing is it all stays within the community. Outside the community nobody has ever heard of that because it's somewhere down a thread within the community on Drupal.org. You know, we know it. The internet world doesn't know it. So we have to shout it out and let the people know it's there. I've got some interesting links for you. You don't have to copy them right now because I'll, you know, give the presentation and deliver it later on. So you can click on it and you can find some really interesting links about Drupal marketing, about all the initiatives that are around. For example, by the Association and even Dries Bauthardt who has been in a challenge with Sitecore. So there's some really interesting stuff to be found. And later on I will send out the presentation and you can click on it and find all the details. We have a great community. You know, and you guys are creative. You know, and I found some really, really nice stuff. You know, the Drupal pies, you know, the pictures on it. And even, you know, the firepower of this fully operational Drupal installation, you know, and this, if you organize it well, it can go viral. But now it's found somewhere in what I call the growth of the internet. So if you start by setting up your marketing plan, your marketing plan to promote Drupal in combination with your agency or together with agency as a whole, you need a marketing plan. Every journey starts with a plan. First, what you need is to make a local market description. You know, how does your market look like? The Dutch market is totally different from the Hungarian market or the German market or the French market. You have to look at historical trends. For example, we all know that Type 3 in Germany is big. Why did they choose for Type 3? And why are they now moving over to Drupal slightly? So if you know that trend, if you know what's happening, then you can focus on it within your marketing and communication. Look at the environmental factors. You know, how many agencies are there? Can we work closely together? If you look at Germany, Germany is a very big country and there's a lot of local Drupal, how do you say it? Meetup groups. How can we combine that? How do you do that? And you also have to look at what are the driving forces. If you look at a porter on the internet, what are the driving forces to get your marketing going? And specifically, set your goals and targets. What is your return on the investment? What is it you want to reach? What goals you want to reach? What are your targets? And make them smart. You have to do a market analysis as well. Which segments are you working in? And what's your position within that segment? Competition analysis. If you want to do it yourself, how does the competition look like? Who's focusing on what? What are their strengths and what are their weaknesses? What are the opportunities? Look at your target audience. Everybody who saw the keynote of Dries Beldard, he was talking about personas. It's the first time in the Drupal history that he was talking specifically about personas and that is a marketing term. Who is it you're focusing on? What are their buying reasons? Why would this person, this persona you've defined, why would they choose for Drupal? Or why would they choose for another CMS? Are they choosing open source or are they in doubt? So then you can make a SWOT analysis. What are the strengths, the weaknesses, the opportunities and the threats? And then, of course, you write a conclusion and you can kick off. The main goal is, that's why I say caution, eliminate doubt. If you have a persona who has doubt, see if you can eliminate that doubt. Why is he in doubt? Is it security? Is it open source? What's the reason when this guy is in doubt? Make a plan beforehand and take away, eliminate that doubt. So look it out, really important. So if you have your marketing mix together, you can prosper with Drupal. So you've got your marketing strategy, content strategy. If you know who your personas are, if you know the persons you want to reach with your communication, you can write your content specifically for that persona. Of course, your product services mix should be in order. Your price mix, you know, we've just been discussing the red and blue ocean theory. If it's a red ocean, look at your price strategy. And of course, if you have your personas in place, you can set up your promotional mix. With promotional mix, I mean, are you going to advertise online? Are you going to create flyers, posters? Where is it? Your persona lives, breath, works, and how can you reach him? That's all written down in your promotional mix. So your marketing mix is a combination of instruments an organization can use setting up a marketing strategy. The use of these instruments, and the interchangeability of that, you know, including targets and markets, are based on target audience and the competition. So make sure you have measurable objectives and goals. Kiss principle. Keep it stupid and simple. Really important. Don't make it too difficult for you. Do not write books this big. Keep it simple. Evaluate and steer towards success. You will make mistakes along the way. You will choose a channel that does not help you reach your goal. Learn along the way. Really important. And another important thing is that everyone at your company is demarketing. If your people cannot tell your story correctly or the Drupal story correctly, you've got a problem. Because your colleagues are in a pub, in a bar, and people ask them, okay, what are you doing? Where are you working? And I saw this Twitter about Drupal. What's Drupal? And if they cannot tell the story correctly, you've got a problem. They're on your staff as well. They should be telling the same story. I was telling about the channels you can choose. Print versus online. Everybody knows that online has a, well, higher return on investment than print, but you have to look for conversion. Is it branding or is it conversion you want? Is it your agency's name to be known? Or do you really want to convert them into buying? Print and out of home conversion. Look careful. If you have a flyer or a poster, why not put a QR code on it that directly links to your mobile website that's already converting them towards the online world? And then they can contact you or leave a message. Look at new technology versus proven technology. Nobody knows that proven technology has a higher return on investment than new technology. But the funny thing is new technology, and I mean absolutely new, can create a lot of free publicity. And then you have your return on investment. Focus on AdWords and CO, search engine optimization, it works. Social media. What kind of channels you can use? So absolutely Twitter, Twitter still works. It's very good for branding, for conversion, for letting the people know what you're up to and what kind of services you're selling and what the benefits of Drupal are. Facebook, if you like it or not, it works. So I got Pinterest, LinkedIn, blogs. Which agency already has a YouTube channel? There's a few of them. Think of a YouTube channel. Make a small video about your agency. Make a small video about Drupal, you know. And that goes viral if you do it correctly. You can link via Twitter or Facebook to that video. And then there's events. Events work really well as well. In the Netherlands we have CMS events, I don't know if they run them in your country as well. If they don't you can set them up. We have ICT and governmental events. In the Netherlands we have the Drupal Gem, there's Drupal camps all over the world. We have tech talks, Drupal cafes, we have code sprints. Organizing an event is a brilliant way to share knowledge. And it gives publicity as well because all the people who attend will probably Twitter about it. And then you start spreading the world. So think of organizing an event yourself. This is one I came, this is growing the pie. It's all about growing the pie. And this Drupal camp was in Guatemala. And their idea was also growing the pie. And they're being organized all around the world. And I think that's absolutely fantastic. That's great. So how do you organize an event? Well that's fairly simple. And I mean absolutely simple. Who of you is on Meetup already? Well that's good. That's good. On Meetup.com for about I think about 75 euros for half a year. You can organize as many events as you want. And the funny thing is that people who are on Meetup are being notified that there's a new Meetup around in your neighborhood. And that's the viral effect of Meetup. But if you set up an event on Meetup, and we've been doing that already for a while and that works, promote that same event within LinkedIn groups on Facebook. You can organize a Facebook event and link again towards Meetup so they can register there. So you can create your own community within Meetup. About it, promotion via blogs, a necessity. People like to know where the events are and they like to write about it. So if you organize a Drupal event, you write about it on blogs and send it to blogs. Post it of course via Twitter and most definitely offer free drinks, just free beer and a bite and they will come. And the good thing is that talking about present PR, most magazines or websites are in a desperate need of content. So all you have to do is just send out an email or create a list yourself of all the most important blogs and websites you want to have your event promoted on. Send them an email like, hey guys, I've got this really cool event coming up which you like to post and write about it. And send the complete description, the complete text with your email. So most copywriters are absolutely lazy buggers and all they do is just copy it, copy and paste it so you're in charge of what they are going to write about it. So send it out, your own present PR and go from there and work from there. So start small and it can become big. Small events and become big and spread the world about Drupal. And I just checked it out and there were 91,043 meetups only already this week around the globe that is massive. So I urge you, try it, set up a local Drupal event and go from there. What about free versus paid publicity? That's always a challenge. So you have your present PR and then you send out your press release and then this guy calls up, probably an account manager of this magazine that says, yeah, I can write about it but I'll charge you 2,500 euros and then you get a free ad within the magazine as well. Choose yourself if you want to do that, look at your target audience, if they are there and ask this account manager what the return on investment will be of this 2,500 for this article being able to be published in the magazine. So that's a decision I cannot make for you but make a careful decision. There's lots of places where you can get your article published for free. So viral marketing, it's very difficult to create a viral and to be sent out all around the world, VDL works but it's not cheap. If you want to create a good viral, it's expensive. So think about that and if you're being approached by your present PR, let's make a viral, think twice. Use Planet Drupal, Planet Drupal has a big audience but it's also within the Drupal community, not outside the Drupal community. So take care of that. And we were talking about showcases earlier, post your showcase on Drupalshowcases.com. So now part two, organize to grow the pie. How do you organize it? So what are the benefits of a local foundation? All about that later on. What are the rules and regulations, code of conduct, how to create a movement. And how to work closely together with competitors. Build a foundation, share the profits, I'll tell you all about that later on and then there's room for questions. Okay, so the benefits of a local foundation. We started off in the Netherlands setting up a foundation because we wanted to have a independent single point of contact for all. That is basically the single point of contact for all Drupal brand related questions. What you don't want if you share forces with your competition is that one of your competitors is the voice and face of Drupal within the Netherlands. It's like, hey, and you get a lot of questions about, hey, this guy is in front of the camera the whole time, so he's getting a lot of work out of it. Why should I pay a lot of money to this foundation and this one guy, this one competitor stands up and is the face of the foundation and does that work? No. When there's money involved, you will get a lot of questions, believe me. So we came up with the idea to create a independent single point of contact. So we set up a foundation, we got our money in and we're now looking for an independent press NPR person. So if there's a question about Drupal, if the Drupal brand is under attack by the closed source vendors, how can we cope with that? And then we push in front with our knowledge, an independent press NPR person. So this independent professional can also arrange monthly, you give him a target, monthly press releases, so Drupal gets known, you know, and so we can start a competition with the closed source vendors who has a really, really strong marketing machine behind them. So the single point of contact for all present PR related issues is a necessity. But this all requires a professional organization. You know, you have to set up rules, you have to set up a foundation and work really closely together and organize it. So this is not just a few guys sitting around pizza boxes telling, okay, let's start and do something, you know, now organize it professionally. And that means professionalize your finance, professionalize your events, et cetera, et cetera. This is an example of how we did it in the Netherlands. The SDBN, this is the local foundation of Dutch agencies. What's on it? Well, we tell about who we are, what we do, and we all do this independently from the agencies. You know, we do not mention, the board is not mentioning who they are working for. So there's news on it, news about Drupal. There's a list of agencies. If somebody is really interested in Drupal, we hopefully, they come to our website, they learn more about Drupal, and they found a list of agencies who are involved within our foundation. There's events on it and a single point of contact that will lead to our independent, present PR person, you know, and that works as a charm. There are, however, rules and regulations, and those are really important to keep your foundation alive, you know, to make no mistake, there will be discussions, and we've had a lot of discussions, but there's rules and regulations you have to focus on. So the independent, present PR person is required. The board must act on a personal basis, no agency branding whatsoever. It's not based on a commercial basis. We all should know that we do this to grow the pie. Somewhere along the line, down the road, we all benefit. So company branding by board committee is not, is prohibited. So if there's an event and we are there, we tell them we are board members of the foundation, the local foundation, is not allowed to bring your business cards. And I believe me it is tempting because we were at a CMS Congress and I think there are about 25 brilliant, brilliant leads. But we've committed ourselves to grow the pie and we say, okay, if you're interested in Drupal, look on the SDBN website and you can find all agencies there. And people ask you, but which agency are you from? Says, no, we are working for the foundation. And I can tell you it is tempting, but if I would have said at the time or my colleague would have said which agency we're working from, they're undermining the role of the foundation. So we pledged, we made a note not to do so. So lead generation only via the website. We're all partnerships and agencies, participating agencies are to be found. One rule in regulation as well is we have to choose verticals. Are we focusing on the government? Are we focusing on automotive? Are we focusing on media? And we had to look in the Netherlands at all shops and we knew that most of the shops were not working for the government. So we choose not to focus on that vertical, that cooperation, this necessity. So choosing verticals on the basis of the target audience or the majority of the participating agencies is one rule as well. And as I said again, focus on growing the pie and the community. We need a bigger community. Community leads to more professionals working on Drupal and it all leads to more code. And then again, I cannot say this too much, we all benefit. So there's a code of conduct, grow the pie, not your own pie. And we all benefit, not I benefit. Share, share, and share, share knowledge. Share all the knowledge you have within your community. And then we can all taste that pie, because it's a lovely pie. And in the future we can make that pie bigger. And this is a brilliant picture, it's not that sharp, but I found it on the internet about the group of Indians all working closely together and enjoy that pie, we should do so. Funny thing is is that we were presenting the foundation in the Netherlands and I was asked by Acquia to tell about our initiative. And the funny thing is I do not have any sound available here so I can try it, there's a button here. See if it works, I can show you a little video and made by Acquia. And the great thing is is that we were, by this, you know, the whole story about our own foundation went viral via Acquia, thank you Acquia. It's not working, sorry. Let me see if I can press the play button. So, Michel van Verde, you helped co-found the Dutch National Association of Drupal Service Providers, can you tell us what your association does? Well, Stichting Drupal Bedrijven Eland, as we call it in Dutch, is founded to promote Drupal in the Netherlands and help Drupal agencies with the promotion of Drupal as a whole, but also protecting the brand of Drupal and making sure that the complete pie becomes bigger so everybody benefits. Where did the idea to found your professional association come from? Why did you create it? Well, what we notice is that closed source companies are relying on the marketing which is provided by those closed source parties as well. There's no such a thing within the open source community because everybody is working with open source software which doesn't belong to anyone. So we decided to work closely, work together as agencies and combine forces, tip in money together and set up professional marketing and communication services around Drupal. What are your association's goals? What are your plans for the future? Well, the main goal is to grow the market share of Drupal as a whole. And we're going to do this by organising events closely together with our partners like Acquia and we're closely together on present PR, organising events, knowledge sessions, business sessions, etc. That's the goal of the Stichting Drupal company in the Netherlands. And that's how Acquia helped us promoting our own foundation. And that's really working closely together. So again, thank you Acquia. So, we founded our foundation to protect the brand of Drupal. And I'm asking you agencies from around the globe to do the same. I'm asking you to pick up the challenge we have against all the proprietary software because we are, some of you may already know that, we are swimming in a red ocean and competition is fierce. So pick up the glove and start the challenge. Work closely together with your competition. I've told about all the rules and regulations you need and then it becomes fun. It is fun, you know, spreading the world of Drupal and somewhere down the line, you will benefit. Participate, create business events, organise those events, organise your marketing, present PR activities and more. So I urge you to do so. It was two years ago that Dries Beithard asked us to do so. We picked up the challenge and we've done so far. There's a lot of hurdles to be taken. Choose whether you go for a foundation or an association. There's a difference between that. You know, you have a core team that basically sets out the course as we do. You know, or do you have an association where everybody pitches in their ideas and you have to come to the conclusion, okay, which choices do we have to make? We created a foundation because we believe that a strong team, you know, can lead the way with input from all parties. And it's working so far. So our goal is to increase the market share of Drupal in the Netherlands. I'm asking you to set up an organisation like this and I'm willing to help you. So if you have any questions in doing it yourself, just let me know. I can give you all the details and let's organise ourselves and create the biggest Drupal pie in the world. Thank you very much. Any questions? If you can use the microphone because all questions are being recorded. Thank you. That was a great presentation, thank you very much. I'm based in Ireland, there's only two to three dedicated Drupal companies in Ireland. So it's a bit of a blue-motion situation for us at the moment. That's good. Some bigger agencies are using it but they don't have the expertise that is required sometimes. My question though is, your talk was kind of split two ways, one the business development, one the foundation side, which is great. But when you talk about running your own events, are you ever apprehensive about running a Drupal event yourself without involving your local Drupal community? Yeah, what we do is we organise, well as an agency, we organise local events at our office. We open our doors and all our competition is there. So that's really cool because the funny thing is that when all the competition is there, brilliant ideas are sprung up near the bar when there's beer involved, you get great ideas. If you want to basically do a closed session and invite potential buyers, yeah you should not open your doors. But I urge you to work closely together with your other agencies and pitch in money because when you look at, we have over 20 shops now, they pitched in, it's a small amount, 500 euros, that gives us 10,000 euros to play with, or not really to play with to create actual, to set up events. And events are not really expensive, the event we went to, we had a booth for 2,500 euros and 500 euros to create all material and that's it. But we reached a lot of potential buyers who were, some of them didn't even know Drupal. They said, yeah, what is it? I said, well, it's a great CMS, it's a CMS Congress, but what's Drupal? So there's a lot of work to be done and then if you are just a sole vendor, you're standing there, you're not as strong as, hey, here we are and we represent, or in your case, you're in the Blue Ocean, three vendors, but in the future that will be 20, that will be 100. So that's work to be done. Thank you. Just two questions. Do you have a list by any chance of which countries do have such things? I mean, I'm from Belgium, I don't know what the situation is there. Well, I just found out, because I did some research, I know Germany has a, well, it is a foundation, I think, or an association, I really have to dig into it. But I already found out, talking to some people, that they're not really organized because it's set up by two developers. You know, he came up with an idea and they have no marketing background. So please find somebody who has a marketing background that can help you. I have no idea if Belgium has it, but. Okay, yeah, my second question. How do you actually organize it where maybe you've got one agency with like 50 people and another agency with like five people in terms of making sure that the contributions and the benefits are? Yeah, well, we had a large discussion about that. It was really interesting because in the beginning, everybody said like, okay, we asked the bigger agencies to chip in more. And then they get a bigger logo on the website. And I said, well, bollocks to that, that's not working. Because the bigger agencies, yes, they have more money. And then, again, they get a bigger logo on the website. And if there's a large potential buyer pass by, who is he going to choose? Is he going to pick the number one in the market or the number 10? No, you all are equal. So we have an equal sized banner on the website. That's it. So no me being bigger or whatever. No, none of that. You should be equal. So there's an equal chance that somebody picks you as an agency. Okay, thank you. Yes. Thank you. It was a great talk. I'm new to Drupal, so I may ask some questions which you will find some too easy. But what I found out dealing with some big customers, that they have no, sometimes a very high level, no idea about Drupal. But what they did know that they wish to have a solution tackles their needs. And what I can see on your presentation, it's focused on Drupal itself. But one good way to promote Drupal by itself is to compete directly with commercial software by developing what I can see on the market. Some are doing some distribution. So why not integrating your plan? Not only the marketing branding and, you know, all the efforts which you were describing, but also a share effort to spend some time or money as agency on some countries doing one distribution on specific needs. I think that would bring up some new, I would say, blue oceans for Drupal as well. Yeah, there are definitely possibilities. We are focusing on marketing and not basically the technical solutions behind it, but the funny thing is they are sprung up, you know, when we create our events, you know, when we have that beer in the bar and they're like, hey, you know, we find, we know what the, but we find out what the possibilities are within the market. And then we come up with crazy ideas to conquer that market. So yes, we're not from an organizational point of view that we start creating solutions for specific markets. We don't do that. We just offer a one solution that's Drupal and all agencies are, you know, themselves are working closely together to create a technical solution. Thank you. Hello. It's not really a question, more a response to the gentleman over here. There is an organization in Belgium. It's called Drupal User Group Belgium. And we organize like the Drupal camps in Leuven a few weeks ago. And one of our goals is promoting the Drupal brand in Belgium. And everybody is more than welcome to join. I think the only big difference here today is we do not allow businesses as such to become members, but more Drupal users, Drupal developers, coders, marketing, everything managers, everyone is allowed to not have the problem you said before of having brands or really the competition of the companies between each other, but really to promote Drupal as such as the Drupal brand and not one company versus the other. But every individual working with Drupal is welcome. And we want to promote some great ideas here. We want to promote Drupal in Belgium more and more. Do you also organize from the Drupal user group your press and PR releases? Do you organize that as well? Not yet. It's still a pretty young organization. It was basically founded to to organize Drupal camp. Gent last year and the board is open for new elections to help people join in and the more the merrier and more things we can do. It's in the plans, but to do more, more stuff like this. But we're not big enough yet. We don't have only a few members at this moment. Yeah. The reason why we set up a foundation is that we wanted to organize our press and PR professionally and that requires money. And then, you know, that's where the agencies come in, you know, and we we've overcome that hurdle, you know, because we had some fierce discussions like, oh, now we have to work together, but we're competing out there in the real world, you know, how does that work? And we've overcome that hurdle, you know, because we knew we're in a red ocean. We knew that we're going to have to work together. And now we've chipped in money. We've identified 105 agencies in the Netherlands. So there's a lot more money available there for professional marketing. So it's certainly something we'll have to discuss and think about. All right, thank you very much. If you need any information on that, just you can contact me. OK, thank you very much. Any other questions? Hi, I'm Micah. I'm from the German Association. We've been trying for a while now to get contact people, to get addresses for a common mailing list to bundle national concerns. Thank you very much for pointing out the very important points. Yeah, I would like to ask everybody in the room who doesn't have a national association, foundation, whatever, but has a user group or is always the person who is contacted for central questions. Could you please leave your contact data with me or Michael with Morton DK who's collecting right now addresses for the for the day. And let's just try to together that on the list where everybody says it's OK to publish my email address and just try to to get some close network for what we are all working on. Yes, OK, great. Thanks. Any other questions? Hi, I'm Ken. I'm from Korea. We when you have a meet up, we have like five, you know, less than 10 people and like it's very small, small community. And but, you know, we Drupal shop in Korea, I guess with 10 people and we are the only one so far. Well, that sounds like a blue ocean to me. But, you know, people don't know about Drupal. So, you know, they just care about the, you know, function and future. Yeah. And as a like just one Drupal shop in Korea, we try to promote Drupal very hard. But the size of the company is not too small. And we try to grow the community. Right. And like we sponsor the community. Like we buy beer and host a meeting. However, it's I, you know, I'm thinking in the future, maybe we will have some, you know, competitors. And however, I would like to, you know, co-promote, right? As you said, our foundation. But in the initial stage, we don't have enough people, you know, companies to do that. So how like I'll be concerned. How can we like start the movement? Yeah, that's the movement. Yeah. Well, I hope we can start from the, you know, like beginning one to companies, you know, we make the promotional materials for Drupal like, you know, comparison with other CMS is, you know, what is the right approach? Well, the right approach to my, well, first, I would like to tell everybody that this is really great video on YouTube on how to create a movement, you know, with a dancing guy. I won't give you a spoiler, but just look it up on YouTube. You're the one that will have to start the movement within Korea. And what you can do is, first of all, send out press releases. Those are really an easy way of to help the brand of Drupal grow and to be well known by a larger audience, a larger public. You can write blog posts in which you can compare Drupal versus proprietary systems. Those are picked up really well. You can promote your, if you created your own event, promote it via blogs, et cetera. So start small. You know, if you want to create a movement, you're the first guy to have to dance, you know, and then the second comes in and you start dancing. And before you know it, you have 150 people start dancing. You know, so all you have to do is dance. I would say start small, start with present PR releases, start with writing blog posts on well-visited blogs, you know, renowned blogs, try to move yourself in there and approach those blogs and say, hey, I want to write about this awesome CMS. You know, can I do some? So that's where it starts. Okay, thank you very much. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll send it out later on today. Thanks for your presentation, Michelle. It was nice. Tom Erickson, I'm from Marquia. To your question, Ken, and to others, we do a lot of creative commons materials and will help you with marketing materials and things if you want for your regions or your companies, actually, around helping Drupal win against other competitors. So contact our marketing department if you don't know where to go there. You can just send me an email, Tom, at aqria.com, and we'll get someone in touch with you, so thanks. Thanks, cheers. Any other questions? I'll be around until Friday afternoon, then I'll be flying back to the Netherlands. So if a question pops up, yes, you can contact me, and otherwise you can visit the, yes, it's a local website, so it's all in Dutch. But you can find my contact details on the website of sdbn.nl. Thank you very much.