 In this video, you're going to learn about the state of service design in the Ukraine and what service designers can do in time of conflict. Here's the guest for this episode. Let the show begin. Hello, it's Max and you're watching Service Design Show number 150. Hi, my name is Marc van Tijn and welcome back to the Service Design Show. On this show, we explore what's beneath the surface of service design, what are those hidden things that make a difference between success and failure, all to help you design great services that have a positive impact on people, business and our planet. And the guest in this episode is Max Tkachuk, who is a service design professional based in Kiev. The reason I'm so excited to have Max on the show today is that he's a very active participant in the local community and thus in a great position to give us an insight into the state of service design in Ukraine. So in this episode, you'll hear how the design field has evolved over the last years, where it is today and which role it can play in the future. And of course, we also have to talk about which role service designers can play in time of conflict. And Max has some very interesting examples of that. If you stick around till the end of this episode, you'll hopefully be inspired by some of the good things that might come out of this sad situation and how design could contribute to a brighter future. If you are enjoying conversations like this and want to keep growing as a service design professional, make sure you subscribe to the channel and hit that bell icon because we bring a new video like this every week or so. So that about wraps it up for the intro and now it's time to sit back, relax and enjoy the conversation with Max. Welcome to the show, Max. Hello, Max. Hey, this is going to be a special episode. I always say that, but this one is really special because you're in Kiev and we're definitely going to talk about the state of service design in Ukraine right now. Obviously, there's a lot to discuss, but before we do that, I want to do sort of the service design show tradition and that is to hear a short introduction about who you are and what you do these days. So please, enlighten us. So long story short, 15 years in software design and development or 15 years close collaboration with software developers mostly in IT and digital part of the thing coming closer to product design and then entering the service design sphere trend to blend digital and non-digital services and like value propositions. And last five years to trying to educate new breach of designers and all this being lucky because of meeting so many good people both from Ukraine and from around the world working for them and being very young to get a new phenomenon group and get close to iterative design process and trying to develop it for the same time. So pushing the majority of service design in Ukraine and managed to stick it out for 15 years in the software development scene. I managed only one year and then turn it into a hobby and then moved into service design which is still my home. So Max, I also have five questions for you in the rapid fire question round. Your task is to answer them as quickly as possible. Are you ready? Yeah, sure. All right. What did you want to become when you were a kid? Football player. OK. Which club? Oh, I was born in Zaporizhzhia. There was a club inside my native city from like national Ukrainian league, let's say. But from youth I was the great lover of Milan and then of course Barcelona. So Barcelona still stays in my heart deep. OK. And I watched to this day the games. All right, all right, fair enough. What's always in your fridge? Non-alcoholic beer. Non-alcoholic beer. Yeah, you have to say that today. Which, if you could recommend one book to somebody who's listening right now, which book would you recommend? If you start it would be design and everyday things and if you develop yourself better go to Jesse James Garrett's Elemental User Experience. Nice. What was your first job? Visual designer. And that was your first job? Yes. OK, awesome. I was making booklets. Interesting. And final question. Do you remember when you got in touch with service design for the first time? It was like around 2000, maybe 10, 11 when design thinking as a concept from idea got like ground and people started talking about that. Then it became a quite interesting distinction between experienced specialists where somebody started to use the term user experience widely and some other guys started to say that user experience is kind of subset of customer experience. And this distinction first made me understand that like user experience it's not the end of this thing. And the idea of actually doing the non-digital part of it and especially merging it with digital part of it and making like this shared usage like Uber, split share ride and so on makes so many new opportunities for the services nowadays when you merge both digital and non-digital in kind of product, service proposition. And was there any, I don't know, a conference presentation book that got you on this track or was it just a meadow of many things coming together? Yeah, it's on the main layer. So from one side, I really enjoyed Don Norman branch of things. And then I was really inspired in my young years by the talk on Ted by Philip Stark with this red jacket when he explained why we need to design in a way we do it. And in service design, particularly, it was probably my first touch was with service design network. And I found it really interesting that it had almost 30 branches worldwide. And there was no mention in Ukraine. So first thing we do with kind of co-found beauty and starting slowly but surely making events and pushing it a bit forward just to make people know what service design even exists. And like couple of three or four years past things then and like small portion of service design is around. Ukrainian companies are getting presents in small portion, but they already exist and we are kind of glad. Yeah, I can imagine the service design drinks and service design network. I have fond memories of that. I remember that here in the Netherlands that was one of the drivers behind the growth of the service design community here as well. Thanks for that. So Max, this is a special episode, like I said, at the start. We definitely want to contribute and help to the situation in Ukraine. So we decided to do a donation, a fundraising, whatever you want to call it. Can you share a bit more about that? So there are several official links that we will put inside show notes that you will be able to click and participate in the nation. Ukrainian army and voluntary organizations, they are all official and they are kind of OK to be trusted. There are different variations. How you can help today? There are really good volunteering movement that will be like it's researched in the future. And maybe even now we can start to think how this can be made not local volunteering, but this like needed international things going forward, like people who have goods here and how it can be done. Even this this situation repeats. How can we be prepared even more than we show today? Yeah, and that's one of the topics we'll also talk about. So just to reiterate, if you're listening to this or watching this episode and you want to contribute and sort of do do an act of kindness towards the situation in Ukraine, help the people out over there. Check out the show notes. You'll find links to do donations or fundraising to different organizations. Pick the one we that you feel most fond about, they are all sort of validated by you, Max. And you know that these are OK. And that's the way you can sort of contribute through this episode. So definitely go ahead and do that. Now, let's dive into the topic of today, because this isn't something that I'm an expert of. And I definitely want to learn about this more. We said that it might be interesting to explore. Summarize the state of service design in Ukraine. And we're going to do like a typical journey in service design because we're going to explore the situation like before or in the past. The situation today and what it might be in the future, right? Did I summarize that correctly? Well, like maybe we will not shoot all the stars, but let's try. Yeah, yeah, let's see how far we get. So let's rewind the tape and talk a little bit about the history of design slash service design in the Ukraine. And maybe we need to even zoom out a little bit more the history of Ukraine. I don't know how far we have to go. But what do we have to know about the history of design in Ukraine? OK, probably we should not touch all cultural part because it's so rich we need like a couple of other episodes to go there and like art part and all of that. But concerning service design and like application that can find inside Ukraine, you can say that first from good sides, yeah? Ukraine's developing country has had opportunity to leap in several like circles of development. Yeah, so what we have here, we have here a 4G network like kind of wide coverage and sustained with still during the war have access to 4G internet here widely. Internet access generally is fast and cheap for all Ukrainians. And it will be like surprising for Europeans seeing Ukraine and internet in the price for it. Yeah, so mostly for $10 a month, you can go with 100 megabits per second and more with no doubt almost anywhere. What we have more, this micro mobility thing they're talking about. These bolt scooters in Ukraine are no more thing for a couple of years now. And the more surrealistic thing you can imagine now and keep riding the electric scooter no one that siren can go now. So we're like food delivery. Yeah, COVID pushed us to this. But food delivery is absolutely normal thing for many, many people. And it's like manifold went up when COVID started. And for now, it's normal thing for many people goods delivery. These shipments, they are widespread in Ukraine. They're really like spread out and you can deliver anything to any point in Ukraine in day or two. So this kind of logistic infrastructure thing, like technological one is set up in many ways. It doesn't, I don't say that it's 100% good or 100% no gaps, but it's really good like standing from bad perspective, going to deep culture. I think we need to say that plan economy sit deeply, it's roots deeply in Ukrainian mentality. So these state provided goods you consume without having ability to give a proper feedback knowing that this feedback will be used properly. So yeah, I'm I'm living in the Netherlands. So you need to help me out a little bit. Can you give an example? What do you mean? So imagine you have a lot of people and limited amount of resources and you are kind of this manager. Yeah, and you want to be like, OK, for everybody. So you say, I have this amount of milk or I can do this amount of milk and I need to spread this milk around these people. So they will be starving. So I will be decreasing the quality of milk, increasing the capacity of milk or standardizations. Yeah, these human standards, let's say, civic standards, call them whatever you want. But they imagine I always talk with my designers like this again. Imagine Netherlands and you have a like ladder from zero to 100. People from Netherlands think they need to live like 95. And the government says, you know what, you're a good guy, 96 maybe 94. Sorry. But like this, Ukrainians don't even understand that they have this lead and they need to claim their needs to be done by the government. So they ask not for 95, they ask like for 17 and get nine. You know, it's like that. But in which areas do you feel that the most? Corruption, for sure. Legacy mentality of Soviet person that goes even when you become this capitalistic producer, so you don't think you need to use a feedback. You kind of this artist, you produce the stuff and you all now consume it because I'm kind of author of that. And it kind of old school thinking is like waterfall thinking. Yeah, you have only it's like in old school before digital with chairs. So if you make a design of a chair and you make a mistake, but it's already produced in like 100,000 pieces, all you can do is wait for a version to digital age, change everything because errors can be eliminated so fast. People don't even notice. So so that mentality or culture of getting, like you said, getting feedback, updating, seeking out feedback. That's not really part of it. Starting it starting to understand because the hard way they spend money this time to market, they bring the things to the people and don't get adoption and reusability. And that's it. If you take any feature of any product, you can measure it at least by two things. Is it used often and used? This is like and then you attach business model to that. What else do we need? Is there anything else we need to know? Let's look. So no feedback loop. We already said quality sacrificed to quantity any given time. Yeah. So if you have choice, you go with quantity and it's about anything, how you treat products and customers inside that products as well. So remember these portals, internet portals, when every news was like monetized by advertisements. So number of clicks to this page means money. So like everything is built like will bring new users go away. Just look at this. We don't need you anymore. This like, you know, consumeristic in bad meaning of the thing mentality. What we have exception of the things are army and sports. It's USSR legacy. So the quality was not sacrificed for quantity in some matches in army and sports. And it's both like military industrial clobblings because you need warriors and you need military like weapons. OK, talking about design and people who call themselves designers in Ukraine, we have a couple of problems. So historically designers, Ukrainian designers, let's say, have evolved themselves into some ladder of specialty. So they start with marketing and visual design and then say they are kind of interface designers, then UX designers, then product designers and then service designers. So they constructed themselves kind of a ladder and you have in between like UX, UI, UX, you see those here and there in resumes and so on. So and they try to climb this ladder. That's why service design is like top floor, like luxury one. That's that's maybe sometimes the the negative thing about service design that it can feel quite elitist, that not everybody is good enough to be a service designer because it's a holy grail of design, but that's not dive into that. I'm curious if you can say a thing or two about how was design education structured in Ukraine? I don't know. I've been graduated like many years ago, like 2006 from higher education here from university of software development. And I can say it was kind of a peachy state of things because you were taught not what things you will what market will need in five years when you come there. But what the structure of teachers they do have. So they teach you from what they have, not what you will need because of less of like money support from the state and so on. Corruption as well was that I don't know how it goes now. But mostly if I tell you my look from here. Private education took over the government education in absolutely any part of the thing like starting from like, say, 18 years and further when you a young person starts to think about like, what's going next? Probably they will come up with private education or international one. So you have kind of in Baltic countries, you have this Institute of Interaction Design really good for the its bug. Yeah, it's like top of the world in design sphere concerning like amount of dollars you spend or yours. It's really cheap compared to another educational institutions in Europe and US. So they select not Ukraine in Ukraine. You have a couple of good schools of design really good to see the guys called Projector they been designed school, mostly starting their roots from visual and creative disciplines and then taking the side things like you experience design and development and like art even in humanitarian things. So they are trying to become this T shaped anything started ground for anyone in this country. So kudos to them and release like have joy looking at their development last 10 years. So what's more? If you know Lumpter School, this idea that you learn and then pay this is like European US company. So you be taught something and after you've been brought to work and you start having salary, then you start paying like 20 percent of that thing of your salary to the company and they are like cumulatively ends like business model for a startup is good thing. So made academy is like copycat in some way of Iranian kind. And the guy who was working for Google came back and started the thing. So good is to make academy there and doing really good job educating developers, especially all these guys really responded good to the war. So they opened up their like educational activities for also free participation and like for guys from army, they can enter free to start like learning design and development. So, yeah, that's it sounds like there's a lot going on. And it's good that there's some movement and slow adoption of design. I'm curious like from the outside, it seems that one of the things that Ukraine is doing really good is educating or quote unquote producing a lot of software developers. Like how do you see that in relationship to the number of designers that must like anywhere in the world that that the ratio isn't equal? But how is it in Ukraine? It's like it's so sweet point you touch because it's I can talk about hours about this. So mostly imagine that organizational maturity to be interesting for mature designer who raised from interface to UX to product is not enough in Ukraine. So many designers when they become product designers leave or even UX design leave Ukraine because there is no local products of that kind of interest here that with that mature processes that deep integration of design inside itself and so on and so on. They are but not so much. And like from perspective like why this happens and how developers like are touched with this. We have huge development lobby. Let's call it engineering lobby, software engineering lobby, because from one side it's like legacy of USSR making weaponry. So physics, mathematics, this is like really on top. From other side, when they learned first books of software development, they read software design partners. Yeah, so the word design always appeared on their book problem that technical system and social technical system are kind of different things and we are on the part of social technicals. And if you want to stay in technical systems, you can go with what they call API when the user is another system. Then you can stay with that principles and design paradigm. But actually customer becomes even more than these because if you trust your engine of learning from customer, you will find yourselves in a solutions that maybe not require half of your like capacity because they will become absolutely different. I totally can see and that must be a challenge like when the people who do get to, I don't know, I don't know if it's a high level of design maturity. Maybe it is that they actually leave the country, right? That's basically what you're saying, because there isn't enough demand in the local market. Yeah, yeah, and if you wonder like if this small country of Ukraine has far reaching diaspora in software development and design, you'll be surprised. Yeah, so all big four companies, our guys are there on both design and development position like Facebook, yes, Google, yes, McLaren, yes, like you name it, smaller companies. If you think do Ukrainians have products well known beyond Ukraine, yes as well. So you have CleanMyMag, the application that cleans a lot of Mac books if you know, you have Grammarly, these plug-in to correct your grammar done by Ukraine and them as well. So there are like 10 of them and they're really shining, not saying that like on the way to become or some of them even toned, but I think we need like 10 fold of that. It's good, but it's so less than we could make. And the root of that is like the developer to design a ratio in Ukraine is kind of 10 to 1. So in different numbers, they say even that they have hundreds of creative specialties, but actually designers who work with developers, let's say. It's like maybe 25k, maybe 15k people, but developers is like 250k, 200k, 300k and like year-to-year growth in development is like up to 20 percent, yes, it's like big numbers and designers cannot catch up. And when you have huge lobby, it means your software development team is stuffed accordingly to the law where designer comes in the last one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Last one, so like for the rest of the budget and can be dropped the first one. Sure, yeah, yeah. Well, I don't think Ukraine is the only country that has the problem, but it has that challenge. So I think this paints a little bit of a picture of the situation that design was in or is in. Let's migrate into more or less the situation today, and I don't know, maybe you want to talk about the situation before February 21st, 24th and after. So I'm mostly curious to like, how is the design community responding to the whole situation that's going on right now? So like for short before how we entered the forest, we have really vibrant community of people they are intersecting in many various ways. And I don't know if it's surprising for you, but for me it was. And our research locally with team of Raphison Bank showed as well the same results. The force is so much decentralized that you can't catch up with all the things being done. Nobody can. So there is no centralized force that's doing this. Just the moment you thought you've collected everything or saw everything, you've been pushed like from 10 different fronts with new knowledge, new information, some meme going viral, going viral, you know, like tenfold, tenfold, and meme on meme on meme. And like this meme community became really good force. We are touching designers and how they participated. Let's see. They did response in really rapid, fast and decentralized way. So everyone stood their own ground and asked probably, as I said, themselves, what can I commit from what I have? So mostly it's getting the form of protest art. Designers do cooperate, start and cooperate with developers. And that's the point I'm gonna like dig in mostly to make this, you know, dashboard of Russian losses. Like you enter the site and see this amount of tanks plus seven today. So this dashboard is like digital. And from other side, we have developers who ask themselves the same what we can do. And like the first force period is close collaboration, like two to three organizations between themselves, developers, minister of digital transformation and something collaborated. And we have application on iOS and Android that alerts with all the silence that are going now in Ukraine in any point of Ukraine. And we have dashboard with sirens and even all strikes on Ukraine in real time. So they like flush like this. And you can see how intense it really is, not just listening to the news. But like we have this protest art from one side in huge representation. And these developers who are starting doing these things already in big numbers, but by themselves. And we are kind of trying to shrink this together to make this collaboration happen. And if we try to divide the horizons of activities, we think about like before liberation day after liberation day. So there are some activity that will be not needed. We hope after liberation day, like these sirens applications. So you have this SAP priorities you want to follow. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. What else? What else in what we have two months into the war? So our worst attempts to not to fill shit and to do something were resulted in mostly what we had to do is like canceling Russia designers, canceling Russia design communities from international standpoint. Because for me, I found a couple of people who are like, I don't know who they are after all of that hiding by the mask of designers, like bright light force doing good. That's why we're like trying to eliminate them from international community. We like shame them because some of them were really high profile PR people who like silent themselves from day one, not saying anything. And we're trying to raise their like, I don't know, self-conscious. I'm curious. Like it's impossible for me to even imagine what it must be like in your situation, but have you seen any shifts in mindset or things that sort of surprised you? So like, did you expect the design community to stand up like it did? So I don't want to be super praising of a design community because the design community knows that I'm like a bit of a guy who shouts at them all the time, but they did really great job. And I cannot say nothing bad about the amount, the quality and anything. The only thing lacking is like the whole, the huge, this power needs to be directed to another power called developers and they need to merge and collide into the new solutions. Staying aside is an option, but like if you compare those options, probably you choose the first one. So designers can do more trying to bring more value. The problem of today's life and what we researched throughout our Raphizen team is like, the journeys of people in Ukraine for nowadays are so different. They're like shuttered glass with so many pieces. And the pieces are like the same glass, but one from bottle, the second from was. It's like all of them are similar and different both ways all the time. So you can't really make a solution and ask even yourself, what is the most important thing you can do? Because once you created it, you doubt it. Because new data comes in, is it really necessary even? And you try to do and you can come up with the solution that will fix it all or fix something. Well, you're in a situation where things change by the hour. So like planning that looks like... We're saying they a year now. It's like they seems like a year in terms of number of changes. But that would sort of almost argue for the role of design because if anyone, we should be pretty good at improvising and sort of feeling what's needed in the situation, like making quick prototypes, not being too worried about if this will work in five years. So it seems that the design community might be in a really good spot to help today and maybe even more in what's going to come. Yeah, like imagine the thing. You have this understanding of what's happening in Ukraine, even if you freeze all this data now. So it's like a lot of people outside of Ukraine feeling they want to participate in making Ukraine come back alive. Let's say. And we need to see these opportunities of remote participation of the whole world's design force together with local designers because not to use the whole world design force who want to participate, to collaborate on doing the solution for local people. It's like a waste of these resources and I don't want to waste it, especially when I see so many requests from them, from Ukrainian desperate and from people around the world. So let's talk about that. Let's fast forward to, let's hope as soon as possible and you're sort of being able to focus your attention on rebuilding, restarting and building a better Ukraine. How do you see potentially the international design community helping out here? So firstly I see it helping because I became a bit more adult and I understand that I don't need to do everything myself. It's like when I was young. So how? Imagine that Ukraine integration in European culture, both for people who left to you because of the world. And because Ukraine is no doubt European culture with all its like 30 years, last years of development and like direction where it was going. The culture is a tricky thing and like for people who left it's really good to know how to be the most of a help if they join service or product design teams in Europe. The same Ukraine can be a helpful resource to understand how designers were actually able to make iterative design even in Ukraine, even with that type of engineering stakeholders, even without users, even without approval from the management. Because most of design in Ukraine happens without approval of the management by their own resources like trying to come up with the reasons for doing this. So I hear two things. Let's dig into the first one which I interpret as how to help designers from Ukraine integrate into product teams, service design teams outside of Ukraine. Right? That's... Yeah, maybe build this agency and bridge back to Ukraine if we wish. So what's needed for that? Or yeah, what do you think is needed? How could we help to accelerate that? And I have a question for the question because I need to ask you here. It's like what do you, if you live through the appearance of like typical in your mind Ukrainian designer into typical like product or service team like say in Amsterdam or somewhere, what will be the top five pain points they will face in the first months or two? How do you feel it? That's a good question and I would love people to comment on that as well. But so from a service design perspective I think language in general is a challenge because understanding people requires talking to them. So the other thing maybe it has to do with speed of development but then again while I'm saying this I'm also thinking that it really depends on the organization because if you enter a Dutch bank or I don't know a healthcare organization I don't think that the speed there will be any different than maybe in a Ukrainian organization who is also risk averse. So it depends on the organization and you asked me for top five which is a real challenge but Let's lower to three? Yeah, yeah. So I think language maybe speed of development and I don't think that actual skills or tools and methods will be any challenge they are pretty universal. And can you elaborate on speed on development? You mean it will be slower than in Ukraine? What do I suspect? Well again it depends on the type of organization you enter. So while I'm saying this I'm just making assumptions because I'm not an active service designer anymore but if a service designer from the Ukraine has been exposed to agile software development somehow like speed of development won't be anything new to them. And again it depends in which type of organization you sort of end up over here. Like if you end up in a startup things will move fast. If you end up in a bank things will probably move a bit slower. Yeah so reasonable. So yeah I have one third thing and I think and here's the real interesting design challenge. I think it's like trying to understand what somebody from the outside might be able to bring to the existing organization. So this is again like flipping it on its head and asking ourselves the question. So if we bring a service designer in from the Ukraine how can we best utilize them? Which questions do you have for me? Like they sort of have the beginner's mind. Like how can you best utilize that? I think that would be super interesting. And I'd like not only ask our viewers to comment on that but maybe if they come back to this episode in some time they can like comment on that once again and say how it all went well. And what we can learn from that as well. Yeah absolutely yeah so this was the thing about integrating designers from Ukraine into organizations outside of Ukraine. Your other thing that you mentioned is how to use the international design community to basically locally inside Ukraine correct? Yeah so mostly you can like for the short thing you can map out the basic problems that Ukraine has that can be solved with design in some way and then you put the international community together with Ukrainian community and it can be not only from one source from multiple educational sources from within Ukraine collaborate on that because let's touch the top of that. You own the culture and solutions of much more developed world. Any solution that can be done in Ukraine probably been in the head of western world. You have experience of doing that. You have bad experience of some things. You know where not to go from yet go. And all you need to do is collaborate applying this to the context of Ukraine both in the war situation and legacy and nuances of developing countries. Yeah and maybe with this like you mentioned at the start like technology wise there's been quite a leap with 4G coverage, bold scooters. We don't even have bold scooters here in the Netherlands. I mean you have so much to screw with design. It's like everything is done just go build upon that. That's the thing I wanted to say. Like maybe there's also like a leap to be made or a stage that you could potentially skip when you bring in external design expertise. I don't know if that's the case but potentially there's that opportunity there. The question I would have here is let's say that designers in the world are ready to do this and are eager to do this. What do you feel is going to be the biggest struggle to actually make this happen? We'd like to have not only problems mapped out about ourselves but have kind of guarantee or willingness to develop them. So eagerness of government you name it how whatever you call to develop actual solutions or develop based on research done on actual solutions but take this and move forward is actually the pain point. I can explain you with one example. So Ukrainian metropolis 10 at least subway. It's first it's all lives not on capitalistic like basis but being donated by the like city governance but imagine that they have everything been from Soviet era. The only change in 30 years is some wagons made new look and maybe better quality but all the bits and pieces of that structure what were not changed one example when train goes off you have a timer and in all civilized world this timer shows you how much time you have before the next time train arrives. Do you know what time represents in Ukraine? How much time how much time was from the passing of the last one? How much time you missed it? These things yeah this is easy to spot easy to redesign but we're missing the third point of this real implementations so the government in some way will want to have some kind of tasks as APIs or some descriptive things that will be solved by these international community of local and international design specialists all together with their promise to actually integrate or work on the results of it. Yeah so basically what and I can totally understand that because it's often not the lack of skills or again methods of designers it's often having a good client or having a good brief that allows you to do the work and I don't know if we outside of Ukraine have solved this but definitely there's a lot of knowledge on how to create the environment in which design can actually well where you can harvest the most benefits most fruits from it and that probably requires a lot of different people than actual designers to make that happen. Yes yes like pretty good for that from Ukraine are kind of tricky so we have big let's say advertising and creative industries design lobby so when designer goes up this ladder he stays like a senior position of creative design visual designer and don't go up so the road to become product and service design you need to look past this all yeah and many designers just stop and coming back to your idea of making a leap from here maybe it can be done probably thinking about like pushing the knowledge from service design more vertically down not going up as they created but starting with service design is the widest spectrum thing because people with higher education not design education can start and understand this top thing and then specialize if they want. Yeah makes a lot of sense so sort of trying to wrap up this conversation we're not done yet but I'm sort of looking for ways to help out so imagine somebody is listening right now and next to going to the links in the show notes if somebody wants to help what would you tell them what can what can they do right now is there anything that they can do yeah yeah so three things first if you don't know what to do go and donate and feel better and take your time to think more second if you don't know what to do probably contact me on facebook link it in and I will try to find the things how we can cooperate and third imagine it's not Ukraine imagine it's a design task the inputs you are far from conflict there is a conflict there are people struggling with this you want to participate and everything here is a design task imagine it will occur again how will you act again so let's take from the top of the list fake news on governmental level made by Russia how you can oppose that how will this lie upon lie upon lie and like they having their own scenarios of these lies going through social medias how you can actually oppose it because this why actually Russia turned off and how twitter became alive again so no Russia trolls and so on so how you can do this maybe how you can make next step for volunteering movement between Ukraine and other countries because now it's kind of volunteering volunteering like as we call on a knee done on the fingers but when you can establish a ground for better volunteering faster volunteering less risky volunteering yeah what's more as application with our companies ajax security and stifle con developers made this application for sirens and they have their own bedclog they move on they make application distinguish sirens like a defense and urban warfare let's say and you understand way new context around you what are you experiencing and where to go yeah so developing those things and thinking like isolated there is a conflict you have all the data your users are all the like on all social media you don't have problem running design task making anything you want about that you have all the things at hand any Ukrainian who has free time will be your user for your interview you can bring customer journey can run through it by any means and then build on that because without first build you can't actually go further you need to build on something and learn from the interaction with so I thanks for sharing this and I like how you phrase that everything is a design challenge or everything is a design task maybe and maybe there's a list already but I like if somebody needs a starting point you already gave three but I'm sure that there are many other design challenges that might be meaningful to address right now and if they don't know like reach out to you on LinkedIn that's probably the best thing to do oh yeah can I in the end of our talk probably do we have any points because I want to make shout out to Ukrainian designers who lost their jobs guys so we saw our team opens up all the practices and now you're getting there free all of you come there showcase your skills working with volunteering project for Ukraine for now and maybe you will be seen by some our guests from companies and they will hire so yeah let's let's talk about this for a second service.so people who are listening to the podcast version don't see your t-shirt but it's service.so that's a website that you run or you go run so we just started before the war imagine that the bigger point is creating the cave institute of design where we can actually create an environment for working closely between designers and actual companies so they have real backlogs and solving real tasks we've been doing this for three last years and we had really good results so we want to continue to scale this but service.so is like a skateboard you need to jump and ride so it's like engine to have this iteration being up working with companies last six months testing all of that taking from banking sphere to like governmental medicine sphere and trying to see if we can come up with these level of tasks and like making this four to five days sprint but like each weekend so you spread it across the months and everybody can cooperate beyond if they work or don't.so and you mentioned like it's now open to anybody any who lost the job any designer who lost the job can attend this for free and we will prepare the volunteering projects that are now needed in Ukraine and we'll go up and see what it's needed and we kind of collide all these things we already talked through it's my commitment to that and our team so we are doing what we speak in some words there so everybody is invited join us and bring your volunteering projects as well who are ready to commit our time and knowledge.so basically you're collecting meaningful design challenges that people can work on and that are real.for sure we are working for three years only with real tasks yeah so it's our like motto work with the real stuff and then we can map out this and map to these our international community and see who what how do we need to make some grants to bring you here for two months yeah a lot of things we need to think about but like these community of Ukrainian designers looking at how developers went up to 250 is making the same approach and we are repeating the failures of developers who are mostly outsourcing the work so to bridge developers and designers for a local market and creating new software and not only software but especially into the place yeah it's much needed thing and we don't need to the last the worst thing we want is in some times see the same drain of the best talent growing to a product way and going out and and there are probably and it shouldn't happen because I can imagine that there are a lot of services also in Ukraine that need some love from the design community thanks for the shout out service.so the link is also in the show notes max so again to wrap up and this is really a wrap up if somebody remembers one thing from our conversation what do you hope it is stand for the truth stand and fight stand for the truth and fight awesome thank you for sharing your perspective on the state of service design taking us through what's going on really encourage you to keep on going and I hope that the design community can play a small part in helping to create a better more even more beautiful Ukraine thank you for having me good to be on the anniversary episode or half anniversary episode thank you for the listeners keep in touch hope to see you in some future being well in life. if you've made it all the way here don't forget to check out some of the links that are in the show notes of this episode and if you have questions from max reach out to him using the contact details that are also in the show notes I really hope that you enjoyed this conversation learned something new and found it inspiring if you did make sure to share it with just one other person today thanks a lot for watching to the service design show and I'll catch you very soon in the next video