 No, no, no, no, don't worry. OK, so... Yes. Yeah, yeah, I don't know what to put... Can we use this? What's the developer's side and which one is the... The developer said it's the dark one. OK, so dark one is the developer. Sorry, sorry. The one with the mono space. And the white ones are the designers. OK, great. I'm going to take one, too. Well... OK. Yes, it is. Yes. OK. Just I want to introduce the interaction part, OK? So we will have some introductory questions just to know the audience. And you can use the short link if you want to vote from your phone or you can scan it with the QR code. And it's important to know from the room how many designers there are and how many developers there are to know the representative. And while you do this and get the survey, we're going to introduce ourselves. So my name is Ekaterina Moraru and I'm an interaction designer for about 10 years for an open source project which is X-Tweakie. OK, and I'm going to pass this. Should I use this myself? Yes. Hi, so I'm Timon. I'm actually in computer games mostly right now. But before that I did some work for iOS as well. I was a programmer but, you know, there's a little bit of design in all programming work. Nice. I'm Belen. I'm an interaction designer and design researcher. I've been doing this for over a decade now and I've been contributing to free software for about seven years now. I'm Jan. I'm also an interaction designer, mostly on NextCloud and also some other smaller open source projects. Yep. Hi, I'm Donald Abrams. Past 18 months I've worked in vision on studio doing the animation tools. Right now I'm working for the OKML Foundation Community Manager. This is going to be the hardest part moving the microphone. OK, so I'm going to update this. OK, OK. So we have like 14 developers, six designers and some other people which is interesting because it's interesting. Being a designer room, we have some good representations just shy developers that will vote mostly from their phones. OK, the next question is if you have a designer in your project community and I would like maybe the panel members to say if they have multiple designers in their community and if they work for multiple communities. Well, like I said, I'm mostly on the corporate side. Kind of computer games are appropriate so I can save much for open source. And most of the open source projects I'm involved in... No, no designers. Mostly because it's like the graphics kind of things. But at our company, basically everybody's responsible for his... like we have Maestros. So if you're the sound guy, you're the sound guy. You do everything that is sound related and you have to work with other people to make all of that work but there's no person who's responsible for the design. On the UI side even, we very often have people responsible for certain parts of the UI but it's not always necessarily a person who is responsible for designing all of the UI and then a separate person responsible for making the UI. Usually it's kind of connected because we have a small team. In every single open source project I've contributed to, I've been the only designer. Yeah, I would say in every open source project I'm the only designer with a design education or a design studies background, so to say. But there's a bunch of front-end people or even like I would say more and more front-end people who are also more and more design minded, which is good to see of course, or developers who also get more and more design minded. At InVision we definitely had a lot of designers on staff but it's interesting they're designing for designers and they had a lot of power. They basically treated product owners to a large degree and then at Okamal Foundation we're very, very small so we're contracting our design right now for the bits that we need it and we're working at what more we need. Okay, and for my case in the next week for the past 10 years I've been the only designer too so that's why we actually did this community in order to not be alone anymore and to get feedback. Okay, let's see what the project says. Okay, so this is quite equilibrated. I'm curious to see if we will ever do a panel if this changes over time and if we have more designers involved. The next question is what communities do you think they need designers and are they small, medium popular or they're optional? We are small and I guess 12 people or what I would say is in our company and our general idea is that we just don't have the resources to have a specific designer. Not so much because a person who's designing is not doing work in a way. Not that really but the problem is that also creates more work in the sense of like more overhead to get a result whereas if you just have a programmer doing the programming and he just says oh I'm gonna do this and then just does it that's very quick so we have a very short iteration process because of that whereas when you're designing you have to first design you have to think of all of the use cases you have to then implement them and the end result probably will be much better but it takes longer to get there. Well, in my case I've worked in both streams. I contributed to the Jocto project which is Stalingox Foundation initiative and there was a massive project. I was still the only designer and in that case the designer was considered optional I was disposable but I also worked in a one-man band like the video program that they use here to process all the talks and that's a one person project and in that case I felt very much valued and you know that he was really appreciated my work the maintainer so I think I'm not sure his size what is the factor here. Yeah I guess the most true answer I guess that most people unfortunately would give us D but what is the correct answer is A so the especially because a lot of proprietary projects or Silicon Valley projects or whatever are co-founded or led by designers which unfortunately brings us in a tight spot because we have to compete with that basically so yeah that's very important that we look at this A not just as like oh we have so few resources and I hope that the jobs board of Open Source Design can help with that to solve these small tasks or do it in small steps. So I have a more nuanced thought on this so design is kind of an overloaded term a lot of times the degree programs are called visual communications for a reason because it's another form of communication so really you bring a designer in once it surpasses your average person's ability to communicate what's happening so if you're doing like a blockchain startup and it's a small people those things are very very difficult to both communicate and understand and they're going to be designer much earlier than something that's more well understood by the people you're communicating to so again it's doesn't really the size of the project it's more about the complexity of what you need to communicate because you need an expert to notice how to whittle it down and balance both copy and visual design or interactive design in a lot of your cases Yes, yes so the results are medium projects so people maybe consider that you need to be a sizable team in order to need someone dedicated for this kind of work maybe there are also financial reasons for this voting this is more like a marketing slide but the idea is if you are looking for a designer as an open source contributor where would you go to look for one and the option is like our open source design job board where we try to bridge the gap but yeah I don't know if you want to say anything besides this and I don't know how many had the time to vote but the majority say other I'm curious what that other means but and maybe I have some bugs in the okay so this means just pay designers not necessarily somebody that could volunteer and do it for free and the question is what kind of designer do you need for your project it's interesting to know how you vote because there's also lack of education in the vast areas of design and I don't know when people looking for a designer if they know exactly what they want and designers expect you to have the jargon and know exactly what you're requesting do you have any remarks about this I guess the issue is and maybe Belen can or Bernard can say more about this but I guess that user researcher for example is not going to be really answered by anyone or it's not really something that you think about because it's not something that you see that you think that you need whereas graphic designer if you say oh we need a logo or we need some illustrations yeah that's obvious but it's not obvious that you need a user researcher or a usability engineer also very quickly mentioned that these are roles not people I do several of those things for example roles not much directly to people necessarily and another issue is that I put the front end developer and a lot of communities they expect someone to do also the implementation but in our community we usually we don't know to do that part and also the projects are very diverse and in a lot of languages so we might not feel that need and I'm curious what people said okay so there are eight people that said that they don't know so my question is since I answered I don't know it's partly because I'm not sure what's the difference between some of those roles could you explain what's the difference between interaction designer usability engineer and UX designer UX designer that's kind of the same I can try a lot of it has to do with where in the funnel it is and so you have people that are trying to find out more about your users which are your researchers all the way and there's a different piece of the funnel all the way down to the front end developer which is actually making it real and there's different specialties that are broken down inside I actually don't know of any good resources that explain the difference between each one actually there's a lot of arguments in the design community what when you're putting out for a role what do you title it because these things are all very different I'm going to be fairly brutal in here I'm going to say that out of all those things a graphic designer tend to be a different person front end developer tends to be a different person everything else is what did you call it slang they're pretty much the same thing but we are an industry I think that tend to make up fancy words actually I think it's a core element of the interaction design discipline so the statistics in the math part the statistics in the math part well actually usability engineers very often will not do statistically significant studies anyway so it also depends on the person so some are more generalized and as Balin said they want to do all but some they are specialized and I don't know they do just accessibility or yeah and the next question is for how long would you need a designer and the options are one time periodic full time and issue based and this is important when you want to contribute with somebody because that person might have a limited time or if you want them to stay a couple of years you might need to fund in some ways any remark so actually for me right now I actually need a one time but very specifically I want it delivered with a small design system so when they're putting other pieces allow me to sort of remix it with some guidelines and that enables me to not necessarily need the periodic term involvement of the designer in the project I think that's super important you have been 10 years in next week I was 5 years in your project I think establishing long term collaborations is actually key now there was going to be very efficient to work you do the amount of interaction you have to do to get into the project you do kind of have to understand it first before you can actually do any work and also depends on the project I mean you can see a platform and it's very complex and you still have work to do for a longer period of time but if it's just a logo design you cannot stay for a long time yeah yeah no sure but okay yes yeah I'm one of the other people so not the designer I'm a theater director and I wanted to make a short statement on the political task of open source design because for me we were four people working together from the beginning two people more coming from design side and two developers and I think in a lot of software the mainstream people are using what they see is very different to what's happening on the technical side and I think for me it's a really really in political issue to create design to create a design that enlightens people about how the architecture is working actually because we need to make more people aware of how technical stuff is happening and it is mostly a design issue and that's really a statement so please talk from the beginning on get people in there and I didn't know anything about the developing process and I had to learn a lot but then we had big discussions and I said no I don't want to have hierarchical software architecture and then there were a lot of good ideas because we started in the beginning and that's like I think the political issue that's really unclear for a lot of people that there's like enlightenment that can happen so people can understand how things are working if it's like more transparent to the architecture cool thanks okay this question asks does your community list the design contribution rules do you want to comment something about the options no so we have options like the design issues list how many of you do you have this I mean I will see when the results are coming but it's very important to showcase and list them in the issue tracker is the most easiest because every developer are using them constantly but if you as a designer coming through a community and you don't know exactly what is needed there's no way to find it yeah so what is often missing I guess in projects is a or what is often there in projects in open source projects is some kind of contribution page so how to get involved as a developer as a translator whatever else as a writer or something or marketing but what is often missing is design even if it's there it's mostly maybe just a link or something and what would be really good is to have it some kind of dedicated like slash design page for a project where you really have like specific yeah things like like almost everything like that like design issues list this decision makers feedback conduct deliverables communication channels and yeah this is also something that we should maybe list or review on other projects where we say hey we prioritize projects which actually have a page like that and allow people to be onboard or make it easier for people to onboard themselves I'm actually kind of interested to hear more about how do you guys usually keep the documentation for design because the format in which you keep the documentation will I think decide a lot how you can how people can contribute right so yeah so just coming out of the industry there's a lot of work on design systems and being able to sort of hand them off and I think it's still relatively in its infancy and we have like three or four big competitors but in terms of we don't have a standard deliverable format I think we have a principle behind it which is like the bradfrost and atomic design for web and app but that doesn't even really touch interactive that well so it's happening but I think it's still in its infancy so like handing it off is deliverable and we're just not there yet just text design documents basically so the next question is that if you think that money is a factor for limited contribution in OS and there was also a tweet that somebody said that most designers are uncompensated at a level that encourages contributions and I'm just going to update to see what you said and it's true does anyone want to comment about money I mean it's distinct and delicate topic but I wanted to slide about it because maybe we have different opinions Hi my name is Dave Crossland and I've worked for many years on Libre Fonts type yeah so I'm Dave Crossland I worked for many years on Libre Fonts and Libre Font Design type-based design is a very specialist area of design graphic design in general it requires a long time to practice to be able to do it well and often people have to invest tens of thousands of euros in university courses to get to that level and they they're very often very against the idea that they would give away work that they worked for months or years on full time nevertheless there are a lot of Libre Fonts which are out there not only from Google but also from other companies where they've seen that it's more valuable for them to make the font available under a Libre license than to restrict it and so I think that the tweet is interesting that most designers are not compensated at a general level compared to software engineers but a lot of designers are working in very small studios or freelance compared to software engineers and that if you understand the business value propositions of free licensing then potentially you can earn good money doing open design the next question no yes so this is a double session so please relax because I have like 10 more questions okay the next question is if you think that the university industry influences the tools that designers use and if you want to say something about that absolutely working in vision we definitely worked very strongly with a lot of those programs to seed it in early everyone has a student license for a reason it's to get to lock them in early and it's just a great way to get mind share super early I was just recently at a design university and it was a bit strange how the students are like all the hot shit like did you hear about Framer and InVision and Figma and whatever that's already old and the new stuff is always the latest things so you learn a new tool like every year or whatever and I would say it definitely influences it I would also say it's a pity that that necessarily happens that there's no kind of standard that stays there because I personally think that pen and paper is still or a whiteboard or something is really valuable tools for collaboration I'm gonna blame the universities in here like I'm a PhD candidate in the design school at Northumbria University and basically what they provide to their students is the obvious stuff I think something needs to change in the mindset of educators as well but I don't know how that's gonna happen and there was also a case when somebody requested a design and the contributor give them a sketch file and the developer said I cannot see that I don't have the tool so what you're going to do and using open formats like SVG and exporting them it should be easy for everyone okay so the next question is do you need to be a user first in order to contribute? anyone has an opinion on this? so let's see some results okay they're kind of the equal no? so I have a tweet it says that pretty much all open source contributors start out as users which limit the number of projects that a designer might be reasonable expected to want to contribute to I mean if let's say designer might use the tools they might want to contribute to GIMP or INSCAPE but besides this they would need to contribute to projects that they haven't used before so I work a bit with both with design and development so what? okay I work with a little bit of both okay so I work with a bit of both design and development but so the question is like how do designers actually pick projects that they would like to work on because like as a developer it's either your skill set or like a project that you're attached to but then you're attached to the project there not the skill set like it's either of those so how do like designers go about building their preferences okay so as Jan said maybe they will pick a project because it has that list of design issues or they have a readme and it would be easy for them to job on board otherwise I don't know maybe it's money if that project can propose something I wouldn't necessarily say that you have to be a user first it's always good to be a user but as a designer you should have some sort of ability to step into people's shoes which is the quality that you should have as a designer or do research and really find out what the users do oftentimes being a user doesn't help but is actually counterproductive because you're too much actually in your own workflows and think too much about the way you use the software yourself so sometimes it really happens to step a long way back I mean I often do that also with the project that I work on and really helps after like one week of really not looking at it at all this is absolute bullshit and then you change it so that really helps yeah I think it doesn't really matter that much if you are a user first but I think you definitely needs to become a user after it so once you get involved and start contributing you have to understand the software and it's important that you use it as well I just think it's really important to balance the needs of like a first time early user and a power user people that come in as a user first and they're sort of optimizing their experiences are really designing the user in case and requires expertise to step back and really sit there and design for the first time user and we did to an envision we had two different cycles for this we had internal tickets that we would generate because we would use it for our own stuff and then we would have the external ones when we would go and talk to new users or people are using out in the industry and that having the two cycles really helped and also if you spend a lot of time designing a project you will need to do usability test to see what the first interaction is so you cannot do it yourself but you need users at least to do it ok so the next question is the designer need to learn Git and Belen do you have something to say no you don't know Git so I was at this university as I said and oh ok yeah so feel free to punch me but they should not I mean I do know Git and I would say it's good probably but it shouldn't be and like it starts at the level because those students for example I showed them a GitHub desktop for example which is a non-terminal interface for Git but still the design itself and the wording like clone push and pull is totally bonkers like it should be automatic or it should be called upload download it should be called save or something like that it's like these basic things you kind of expect you know from the developer here I'm gonna say that developers need to learn how to use Git first we all have a ton of problems whether it be a small merge commits like a conflict resolution like we don't know how to do it so I beyond compare charges 100 bucks to get a license because it's hard there are a bunch of design version control systems currently being developed Avacode I think is one of them there's a bunch of others it's a different system in terms of you have people do these things visually and it's a lot of times but it is also different version control for copies in terms of going through approval processes and different pieces it's a different system than code no I don't think they should learn how to use Git to mel along with you all in that case I'm gonna have to learn to use one of the Gooies hopefully that's a well designed well I did want to say of course Git is like the basis of everything you have to learn it how are you gonna cooperate with the developer no that's I mean it depends on the format in which you have your data it's true that if it's more graphical if it's more like a wiki style thing where you need to make comments Git just wouldn't make sense the merge conflicts would be horrible on the other hand so for example Git design wise is the problem with it is that it's very poorly explained to people but it's actually very easy you just have to think of a tree of patches it's just a tree of patches and then all of the commands modify that tree and then simple really can I say something very quickly I don't think they have to but they definitely should Git is an amazing tool and it's also because for me what happened was that when I learned Git I wasn't really learning about Git I wasn't even learning about version control I was learning about design as my design material and that was really powerful so I think they should they don't have to do that and there's also a tweet at the bottom who says that most open source development happens on GitHub and it should be great to see that platform support designs my question is so many people here answer true designer needs to learn Git I would like to ask why designers need to learn Git I understand that they have to understand the versioning system and but why does it enhance the collaboration between designer and developers so it's a question for developers because maybe when we create a project with imagery icon with different size if you can't modify it it has to be the developer to modify this it will be more comfortable for the designer to modify your saying is going to be faster if a designer does it sorry, thank you I wanted to say a quick note about this I think that this is two questions implicitly into one one is whether we use Git as a specific set of technologies to do version control and if designers should use that specific tool and another one that is very different and is being answered as well is whether there should be some version control for the design so that we can track back to changes and relate to that and different user experiences and I think that may shed some light on this so on the technology side we have a law called Conway's law that we use for demand-driven design it's basically your system ends up looking like your communication structure and so the question is how are you communicating between your designer and developer if that communication is happening with HTML and CSS and that needs to feature branches and so on then they need to learn Git at places of work such as Craftsy and Vision but if your handoff point is further off where your front-end developers are expected to take changes and mockups and get updates and then turn that HTML CSS and that's your handoff point then no they don't need to learn it so it really depends on what your communication substrate is and how you design your organization next is a remark and it says that design is not perceived as valuable as code and people said 13 votes for true and 9 for false any comments on that if not we go to the next question straight up comment if you have an ugly design people are going to tell you about it much faster than that ugly hack you just wrote kind of depends on who looks at your code but yeah I guess it can often be perceived but then you use some crappy software and you immediately appreciate the value of good design thank you I have a bit of a side question for the panel on this and it may have something to do with the answers to this question where do you believe the ideation process fits into the software development life cycle and that's a question across the board because I think that might answer a lot of the reason why we think that's not so what exactly do you mean when should we start the design where does design fit within that process because if the primary is the software development life cycle where does the design and design is a cycle just as a single point in and out where does that fit into the overall work and if I say like it's in the beginning and then you just repeat that's what I would okay so that would be my answer but I mean the answer by the book of course is at the very beginning but who does that you know like or where does that happen in practice especially in open source software rarely or never this is a different point I would say this specific to this thing to the valuability is that for example on github because we talked about git before they have this like punch card thingy this calendar of contributions and the problem there is that they count commits they count issue opens they count request don't count anything else what I do mostly is comments on issues like design feedback they do not count this at all so I mean I also do open issues and I also do commit but if I wouldn't do that I would be invisible so this is basically I mean as github says on the front page built for developers so that's like the first mistake that is made this is interesting the answer by the book is at the beginning I actually think the ideation process it should be happening all across because the idea you're going to be learning you're learning all the time through the process of designing and developing so that should feed into ideation that doesn't mean that at a specific stage you might focus more on that than on building for example or whatever but I think it should be there all along I think it's a very wide pipeline in a lot of ways so I mean the first thing you have to know is everything about your user you can what are their goals what is this going to achieve for them you have a person as a product specialist who's listening to a user researcher determine what the most opportunity is doing a ton of math with BAs to figure out what looks like and if you're open source project and it's a project of passion you're like okay does this achieve the goal better than all the other options and that takes a lot of time and effort and energy sometimes you'll choose a design because it's easier to communicate and that requires basically sketching out what the visual design is going down to sketching and different pieces it's an incredibly variable depending on what product you're building what your users are how complex it is if you have a marketplace versus a single use app like what's going on here so it's not a single standard way to integrate design in an organization but it's definitely an important piece for every piece to understand the value of and again it really depends on what you say design is just from experience I can say for me it was always from the very beginning forever constantly basically I always as a programmer I'm constantly designing the software and that includes both the 12 person team writing computer games and my single person projects at home that I do it's always constantly thinking oh I could do maybe this better and then I just write down the idea and then later on I try to read through some of the things I wrote down and work on them anything else I'll change the question ok ok so the next question is as a contributor have you ever feel technically shamed by myself all the time say that again by myself all the time why did I write this so stupid oh that was me again I think that's something developers do I've seen that answer you know I've seen this in so many developers I don't really feel shamed I can say oh gee I did this wrong but I don't really I'm shamed about it teaching is hard learning is basically getting used to embarrassment and just moving forward with it having a culture that supports basically feeling shamed and getting better and using that to move forward and not make you feel like you need to stay in your lane and hide is a different environment and I think it's important to design an organization so that identifying when the shame is and then saying ok well if you're going to call me on this you need to teach it to me and let's sit down and actually get over this because we can't have this happen over and over again because that's where the organization should be ashamed the thing is that it also depends on the project so if you're a beginner designer and you might propose something that is outrageous and the developer might say no this will never be implemented or how did you not know that this is not implementable and can be a bit down for the designer because he will lose confidence in him but I don't say that we should always say that oh that's nice and that's beautiful and this applies not only for designers but also for new contributors so one thing for new contributors always check first whether what you're going to try to do actually makes sense so just ask what needs doing like if you come to a project and you say oh I made this complete brand new design that for your project is going to be great everybody is going to look at you why just a comment on this but as you mentioned also the open source community is very focused on kind of technical elitism and you know you are recognized by your contribution and I know that I was in for them some years ago and there was a similar discussion with people working on documentation and translation that are another kind of contribution and it's very hard to enter a community and very hard to be recognized if you're not a developer basically and so putting some insights or in some way to show that the value that a designer someone who works on documentation can provide to a community I think it's very important and shifting a little bit the focus on developers and developing and code only to something more broad user experience is something that is probably in my opinion something that should be valued and probably be put in some way there's just one thing I want to add to that as a developer if you can write use cases for me if you can like basically make my work easier in any way that's ridiculously appreciated you cannot imagine the amount like it won't always show maybe but it really usually is very appreciative if you do any kind of work that organizes work for me in a way so if it makes my work more efficient more organized more clear what the issue is even just going over issues in the backtracker and asking users what's the actual problem here why is this not working what's your system stuff like that it hugely helps okay so the next question is should open-source designers have an engineering background for me I have an engineer I have a master in software engineering and instead of coding I decided to do interaction design it was helpful because I know how to commit and to develop and I understand but can you explain what you mean by background background I mean academic yes yes like I'm gonna say no but definitely not and I also think that designers don't need to have an academic design background you know sometimes you learn on the job sometimes you think the academic background is somehow irrelevant I think it's useful if you're trying to communicate with engineers so if you're designing open-source tools for engineers I mean you're gonna it's basically user research you have I was also gonna say most so I definitely agree with the academic part you don't need academics sometimes even bad for you not really but no like learning in practice on projects is always better than five minutes lost my foot sorry I did want to say that yeah usually it is good to have the background so that you know whether your ideas are easier to implement or not because if you can come up with a great design that is just unfeasible to implement and then it's kind of wasted effort hello everyone for this question and for the previous one a question came to my mind actually I heard always the communication between designers and developers but why we don't talk about analysts for example for use case diagrams or flaws they can be also from an engineering background and I think that the analyst position would be so helpful for such projects and so my question is in general are there also analysts for your during your projects or you communicate directly to the developers thank you again depends on the size of the project if they have an analyst that it's already a big project and some of the analyst work is done by the interaction designers or at the place we had the most successful product I've ever seen we actually used to get them out of BA so BA would do a lot of the sales talk and the number crunching and then we would transition the ones usually with humanities backgrounds into product and design work and we had extreme success with them they were literally the best I've ever worked with in my career can you explain BA business analyst sorry okay next question is would you trust the designer to make the best decision for your project and there is a question from Nielsen who says that since the merit system in project is based on contribution why would you trust this new and unknown person to start making decisions about how the thing should work so any comments on that definitely depends on the designer if he has a background in engineering no mostly about whether I think they are you know seriously though I would say the design speaks for itself always so it doesn't matter if the arguments are there for why this design is good then sure but it has to be merit based it cannot be oh I like this new I don't know the material design and I think it's the best thing ever so we're now going to switch everything to material design that doesn't just useless basically it's a fashion statement I think it's kind of ridiculous to think you can even upfront know what the best decision is all you can do is make an informed decision and designers are more than capable of making a well informed decision I would say especially since Andreas the person who wrote the tweet as a designer also might be like a devil's advocate question so I don't think he thinks that it's correct or proper that there's a merit system in open source software I don't know what his actual opinion is I think trust needs to be earned so if you are a designer you need to earn the trust of the community and they maybe they'll believe that yours is the best decision okay the next statement is that everyone has an opinion on design and there's also a tweet commenting that it's really hard getting buying from project maintainers it could take six plus months back and forth to get the logo designed any question from my side I always I always have opinions but I always try to hold them back if they are just opinions so you have to always think of the bigger project and the whole user base not just your own use case I think my leg of the elephant is awesome if you guys haven't heard about the elephant I think it's you know the wise men with like one person touching the trunk it's like oh it's a snake person touching the leg it's a tree there's other places you can touch a very different experience but in the end the way that you know what it is is by everyone having a piece of it so if you have something that serves more than one kind of user they're going to each have a lens into it so for example there's lots of stuff out there not designed for me everyone has an opinion but mostly it's their lens that they have their experience I mean I would definitely say everyone has an opinion of design but it depends how you put them into words and how you argue them and how you back them with research or with results or not results but yeah research or only research I guess user testing and stuff how they then end up in the project or how you get value out of them because anyone can say anything and it cannot be informed by anything that makes sense but if you actually do testing and research which unfortunately is not often thought about then you can actually do that just wait for the Twitter ratio okay next question is with a like summary but what do you think is the greatest attribute a noisy designer should have and we're going to see other results and comment on that okay so communication skill hahaha hahaha swagger relax I would have expected patience oh yeah I would have I would have also said that but whatever I think you're always limited by what you're worst at do you think is there any correlation between gender and noise participation and I have some stats there that in UK from 2014 70% of design students are female and participation open source of women is 3% and also if you look in the room and the contributors in our small community there are many more females than 3% is a lot I think hahaha just being kind of honest about IT right now uh yeah I also have some stats and like there's been a study couple of years ago where they found out that a code done by women code done by women is approved at a higher rate than men unless the gender is known and if the gender is known it just goes downhill from there so and to think that this issue is not systematic is just like turn a blind eye into that so there's definitely a correlation and we kind of know why that is also speaking about the numbers as far as I know the general participation in the developer community of women is about 12 or 14% something like this so 3% yeah of course but yeah but 3% seems lower than general industry I also find 6 5 depends on again we're ranging 1 to 11% but not higher than that depending on the community like general development not open source is 25% max so that's already a big difference but 3% is more close to the total open source participants I would be very skeptical about I mean those results we have to wonder which jobs did they you know count in those statistics I actually don't I mean we definitely have huge salary gaps still power gaps you see different even when they fix the pay ratio they don't necessarily fix the bonus ratio or what percentage you get promoted you see in computer science especially has the most basically you have people leaving the field that are women and minority at a higher pace so you actually have a survival rate that drops that says that there's a reason they're leaving there's a lot of research there a lot of it is bad environments bad systems making sure that when you design your community and you open source product and your governance to make sure that this is comfortable and if you're like me which is a white male American you go okay if I want this person you should be what do they need to feel safe valued and honestly can afford to go and afford to participate different answers depending on what country you're talking about what gender and what you look like so thank you so much for participating and for answering it for the questions so yes thank you