 Good evening, everybody. Welcome. We are thrilled to have you here for this panel discussion on how Ireland created and why they open sourced COVID green. My name is Jenny wanger and I'm on the leadership team at the Linux Foundation public health. We are one of the Linux Foundation's newest umbrella organizations dedicated to figuring out different ways in which open source technology can help advance public health initiatives. And ultimately at the moment help us all get through this pandemic together and get out of our get out of our homes more quickly and safely as fast as we can. At the moment we're focused on exposure notification and over time we plan to expand that out into other public health applications. I am here with two members of near form and Gar from the health services. Gar I'm going to let you introduce yourself since I'm already a great start. This is going to be a really natural and casual conversation. So Gar why don't you start by introducing yourself and then Keenan Denise would you also do the same. I don't blame you most people struggle with my surname you get as far as Gar and then the next bit so it's Gar Macriesta. And it's the accent on the eye that kills everybody and I work for the health service executive and I'm the lead for the cover tracker app, which was the Irish based contact tracing up. My name is Keenan, I'm the CEO of near form, and I myself and Gar have been having many weekend and evening calls for for quite a while, working together on the cover tracker app. And I'm Denise Cooper I also work for near form and I've also spent a fair amount of time talking to both of these gentlemen about this out so. So maybe to start Denise, could you help orient everybody what is exposure notification. Is it different from contact tracing. Sure. So contact tracing is well understood it is the technology that knocked down SARS one. It's something that epidemiologists have developed and it is the practice of figuring out who is making who else sick. So you're tracing back to patient zero, and that used to be done manually that's how they got through eradicating smallpox in India, one village at a time it's a time consuming process. Contact tracing using, you know, a little surveillance device that we all carry at all times like a phone is a new idea because that the phone ubiquity has only been with us for a little while it wasn't practical you know 10 years ago when stars one happened. So it is a way to do some of the same things, however, it has some inherent differences as well. It's more automatic, which is nice and it goes faster, it can we can find people faster. Because of privacy concerns and the power of those little devices to really create problems. We've had to design very carefully around the need to get contact tracing to work while still respecting privacy. Absolutely, absolutely. And so, you know, privacy and security have been really major concerns in the development of these apps. And how has. So, these apps, many of them started with open source right if you look back at the protocols prior to Apple and Google. They changed TCN coalition DP three T many of the early initiatives were open source Google and Apple and took that technology, built it into the operating systems, and then created a way for it, a lot of people to easily build apps on top of that. We're now seeing a lot of those apps open source on that topic of privacy and security and this could be for anyone. So how has that whole open source process made it different from some other projects you maybe have worked on. I got I think this one's yours. Yeah, I mean, like it's open sourcing things within a so I've, I've done a lot of work in the public service across a range of different agencies and departments and open sourcing is not it's common in some places, but it's not institutionalized so it's not part of the way it is. So in this case, I think just given the nature of it and given the needs and drivers towards transparency that was kind of the key piece in the first place in order to try and get people comfortable with the idea of what this does. And it's not that so, and it's quite as a total aside, one of the first things so open source. I'll explain how misunderstood this was in that somebody asked me for can you send me the source, and we're expecting a word document with the source code. Right. So that's where we're starting from and I think that so there's kind of a piece here at the very beginning in terms of explaining what it is. Equally open sourcing it, the vast majority of people looking at the code base wouldn't make head or tail of it, you couldn't understand it. But what it did allow was experts in their field who were interested in security or in privacy or in other aspects of the design of the app, it could be accessibility or user experience to explore the app to dive into it to dig deep into it, and to figure out and to give us feedback on that, and that was part of the, I guess the beauty of something like this. And I think it sets. It sets the stage for where open source can play a larger part across government, certainly in Ireland anyway, and I think that conversation has started and that conversation will evolve. I mean, we are getting a little bit ahead of ourselves in some ways, right, Gar, can you tell me a little bit about when, when did Ireland decide to get involved in exposure notification and how did they make the decision, how did the decision to open source that code base happen. So, I guess the start of this journey began, it was actually St. Patrick's date so back in just shortly before that actually where of course it was yeah so national holiday what else have you got to be doing let's wonder about what can we do. But it was a general problem of how do we use technology to support contact tracing, because contact tracing was going to be an issue for us so how do we do that and this was a cross government collaboration to try and understand what that was and that boils down to how do you find people who are too close for too long. Right so that and that's where the journey started. And the, the open source piece didn't come for a while but the beginning of the process was an exploration of how do we solve for that particular problem. I think that's where you start this. It began and once trace together was released in Singapore, it became clear that and the NHS pet PT DP three T and others. So there were kind of teams globally who are kind of coalescing on one way of doing this is with Bluetooth and proximity detection. So it began to go down that road. The overarching thing in the background was that if you look at some of the problems that we would face with rolling this out and getting mass adoption it was one of the foremost ones is trust. How do you build trust, trust is a transparency so then the question was open sourcing and peppy T DP three T T T and others had the guys in MIT as well hello had all open source code bases at that point. So from a transparency perspective, it was driven from that. So it wasn't a big decision. So it wasn't a decision that would be or sorry it wasn't seen as this massive decision to open source it. There's more or less a matter of course that we should do this because it's part of it. So it wasn't framed as kind of a it's a big thing and it's going to define us. It was something that we decided and then how we were going to open source it under what license where we're going to put it what we're going to do with it, but also building an understanding of what open sourcing it meant. That kind of, but it pretty much all took place between before the end of March, like all of those decisions have been made, and we had really kind of crystallized on something but it was very much a journey of exploration at the very start of it. And can I say something to things. One is, because those predecessors had open source their code, we were already standing on the shoulders of giants because we could see what they had done, and it helped us pivot through the morass of choices to get what the outcome we were looking for. So that was really important was that we wanted to continue that conversation. But also, there's open source and there's open source. Initially this code was only published, as in, it was visible. But there was no attempt to build a community behind it there was no attempt to make it usable by other people, other than as an exemplar in the same way that the previous ones had been exemplars for us. Which Keyin's going to want to talk about more is how a familiarity with open source made it possible for near form 10 put this together so quickly. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think going back to the point there just about, just about, you know, it's almost like there was this, like rapidly emerging best practice for response to the pandemic from the very get go. You know, where again, like, you know, to start with it was code sharing publishing of code but not open source which is a which is a which is a different thing. And yeah, it was kind of it just it just was signposted I suppose, from the very beginning it was like this absolutely should be open sourced. This is this is the way to do it. For all the reasons you know, you know transparency being being a huge one and. But yeah, the, I think, I actually think you were super courageous key in in the open source the real open sourcing to links public health links foundation public health because you were giving up business opportunity and doing it, and that calculus of why you know how that works how you make that choice especially for an SME like yourself is really interesting I think. But I mean, it just goes back to the philosophy of open source I mean you have, you have, you know, the kind of old school mentality which is why would you open source this thing you can you can, you can charge the same amount to the next government or, or whatever or we keep it proprietary and all that kind of stuff and. But, but then the, you know, come back to the philosophy open source it's like well let's, let's make this as successful as we possibly can let's share it with as many people as we possibly can. And, and, and you know you take a company like your form like we're 150 odd people like we're never going to do, we're never going to even be able to do like, you know, close to all of the work that needs to be done so let's let's try and enable it to pick the thing up and use it like and, and, you know, hence, hence the, the naming for the project like you know it's COVID green like it was green for Ireland but also green for for turning the map back green again you know and, and, you know, it's a it's a beautiful thing to think that the work that that went on in Ireland in March, April of this year and all the thought that went into, you know, the level of utility that was put into the app. And all the various things went on that you can transpose that into other, other societies and different parts of the world and, and other people you can solve other people's problems and that's a lovely thing to be involved in so. Yeah. Yeah, I always remember that first conversation we had internally so from a timing perspective what happened was Gar and I had a conversation to suss out whether near form would be the right company to take the thing to. And then we had a conversation keen and I and his management team had a conversation. And in that conversation I remember it was the beginning of the lockdown everybody was feeling pretty powerless. They were feeling so lean saying God wouldn't it be lovely to be able to do something. Right. And at that moment it was pretty clear to me there was a possibility that it would be bigger than just Ireland, but the Linux Foundation afforded us the opportunity to make that real. We're starting to see feature donations to the Linux Foundation code green up code base from other countries that have picked up the code base and made use of it. And one of the interesting things that's happening is some countries that already have solved the problem once as in they've already rolled out an app. And so we're working again and seeing the success of this particular app and saying wow maybe we should do this again using this code base and this this approach. So, we found the right approach. I think it took every single person working on the project to help guide it in the direction of the right approach. Gar was super courageous. And I think it was really exciting to the ministers that he works for why we weren't ready to release it yet we were trying again we actually wrote it three full times before we were able to release it. And that had to do with Gar will say more about this but that had to do with architecture and a bunch of other choices you want to do a version of that. Yeah, I mean, if you look at where we started. So when we started there was no Google Apple exposure notification that didn't exist. The notification wasn't even in our language, right so we weren't even using that that that language at that point in time. So that came along in April, at some point in April but up until that point. So we started off as it was like a big data geo play where we were tracking people on location and geo time boxes and trying to fit people into that and it didn't work. There were a variety of reasons but just the lack of precision with GPS being one. The second one was the centralized architecture that was modeling itself on Singapore. And the trace together app, which was basically from a tear down of that and then being informed by what the guys in the NHS for doing what the guys in pet PT and DP three T were doing. It was informed by that and trying to figure it out and this was, it's interesting as well because you're seeing all of these things building in parallel. So all of these teams trying to solve for the same problem. They were beginning to share and not being told to share and not agreeing that they must and not country to country it was just sharing just people calling other people and saying hey I found something here it is or no license for this information. Yeah, and so that very much set the town for it and then Apple and Google came along which is the third iteration of this, trying to figure out what it was. So when we use this embryonic API that still wasn't there I think like when we started this there was three methods implemented on the API. Start stop and pause that was it. And pause disappeared. So we were up and running very quickly with something that that was still moving it was quite literally the the plane was in the air, as we were trying to figure out what it was well certainly was on the runway. So we wanted to make sure that by the time it started to lift off that it was okay. So I think there's challenges around just just how you think about some of that and the timing around it and actually at the time. I was talking to one of the guys in the Department of Health recently and we actually thought we had missed it. If we didn't get this app out by May cover to be over. That's a wonderful thought, but a wonderful dream how romantic and kind of naive we were at the time, but as we were looking at it, there was a lot of an awful lot of time pressure and if you look at it through the lens of the growing caseload and the global impact of COVID and the impact on society and just how people were feeling that was kind of it nearly got embodied in the project in what we were doing because we were feeling that and we were feeling that we were kind of battling against it to what Denise and Keane were saying. There was no sense that you had to drag people into work on this like people were willingly sacrificing weekends evenings whatever whatever needed to be done. And this is across all the groups so like near form, the other partners who were on the test side of it on the on the security and data protection side it was everybody just got involved and across all the agencies departments. I think it's really you know if you look at the history of exposure notification it is amazing to think through the degree of collaboration that started you know the way in which we were all talking around the world you know I had calls with Stanford and with you know all sorts of people across Europe and the US and South America, it was really a global community coming together with just it and I think because a couple of those key projects at the beginning started open source it became the defaults and that collaboration that participation from everybody, the banding together, I think was really it helped to me it helped accelerate the entire process quite a bit right if you look at normal timelines for producing government technology and you know public health technology in general, you know, we started this whole thing in March, we had the first apps out, you know, we really started to see momentum around them in June. You know we now are here in October and we've seen, I mean how many different countries and states at this point have a covert green app launched, I think it's either one of you and I've done for better than me. I'm pretty sure now the work is now the work is unreal expectations about what the app is supposed to do, which is a different battle. Can I just like ground what I worked on something back in the mid 2000s way back and it was a European integration project. It was running for four years before I started, and it didn't go live for another three years so seven years from start to finish. This is something that was up and running 100 days from start to finish, and we had interoperability stood up, which was another chunk on top of that within probably I think it was another six weeks after we went live interoperability and then EU interoperability stood up last week. So, like the speed at which this is done, and this is agreeing on standards across European countries to agree, how we're going to do it, how we're going to secure it how it's going to work, the data protection implications and it just it's a great demonstration of how this can work, and how the pace will be brought. Nobody wants to work at this insane speed, not forever, but well, it's a demonstration of how we can work at this speed and there's that the assumption that we have to go slow to be safe. It's just like it's a fallacy. I have to I have to plug their firm for a second because the very the first working prototype that we produced remember he said we started on St Patrick's Day. The first working prototype was done five days later. And the reason we were able to do that is that near form was already using a number of accelerators that are open source now that we use to be able to deploy quickly because we have the characteristics and because we know a lot about the tools that are being used. And that came because of key and centrist and open source. So, yeah, God bless open source. The sources are it right sources are it. Yeah, yeah. I think as well, probably one of the points to make which is, you know, worth making as well. I can remember talking to. I don't remember who it was but but kind of mid May, somebody on the states I said to me oh you need to put it into an open source project and at the time I was like, no we don't we need to actually get it done first. The thing has to actually get to the point where it's got utility and it's somewhat proven. And once it gets to that point then we create, you know, we share something that that others can use so it wasn't like it wasn't that the primary thing that led the project it was one of the things we knew we had to do, but it was doing it at a point in time when it was the right time. And, you know, for Oscar I suppose it was what about the thing launched in July the seventh, my birthday. But I think the code was put up probably mid June. I think it was about two weeks or there about for the privacy experts to look at it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And why was, why was it so important to have that timing between like how ready how finished the code was. I have a crack at that one because I think that there is a piece here where there was a demand for transparency. And if you look at that demand for transparency if we made the stuff at the start transparent. I mean, we had enough enough to deal with in the media to just dealing with what we were dealing with at that time. If we said we're building a big data geo based thing. Right, that would blow up straight away. Right. We got dinged on the centralized architecture. Right, so we had to fight that off. And then the Google Apple thing came so what we're going to be transparent about. Like we could be transparent about what we're what problem we were trying to solve but not how we were going to solve it. And that notion of trying to do that. I think that's one of the things in this is that there is there is it not there's a tension between transparency and innovation. There's natural tension between the two. And when you don't know what you're trying to do, you kind of need to just look after your own business and figure it out. And then you can tell people what you're doing so when we were ready to go we did, but up until that point we couldn't because literally were like the when we released when we open source that code base. It was on its third iteration I think we were only like four or five weeks into the build of that one of that iteration of the app. It was one of those things that there's a right time. And I think that's that's one of the challenges with for anybody going into this, and anybody going down this path. They're like some of that like DP three T and peppy T had both were born out of academic research. So they were kind of born in that area. They could comfortably go out and open source from the very beginning. It's a very different situation to put a public body or a bunch of public bodies into the middle of this and say, here's what we're doing. Right, because immediately it's it becomes a polarizing thing that we last Jenny for a second she'll be back. Yes. Yeah, no I agree with everything you're saying Gar I think that there is a right time and I remember having that conversation with you about where that right time lands and for us, working in your form, because we're working at you know the fastest pace we can probably the fastest pace we can probably possibly do. We had concerns that we needed to tidy the code a little bit before it got open sourced and, you know, to the again that the people that aren't in this, this panel that really could be or should be the team the primary team that worked on the Irish version of this app, they were putting in so many hours, you know, every basically we worked seven days a week, you know, flat out until it was, we delivered the app and then there were several weeks of Ireland testing it, making sure and then Gar and people that Gar works with selling the idea up through the ministries, because there had been a lot of unfortunate media coverage about how coven tracing apps worked that were working against us. So for a while there, the Oxford report was misquoted in the media saying that you had to have 60% adoption in order to even bother why would you even bother if you couldn't couldn't get that much. And that 60% is a big ask and we have the best adoption of any, any app in any country in Ireland, but we're not at 60% even now. And so one of the things that had to happen was that misfact had to be fixed in the minds of the ministers and that work was all done by Gar, right, and his colleagues. There was, yeah, there was a bunch of us involved in that one. So, yeah, there was there was a lot of people working hard to make sure that the message got across clearly in Department of Health and deeper in Gar that Defense Forces and others. So, yeah, I can't I can't take full credit for that much as I would love to. No, but I think what we're telling you is that it was a. Yeah, well, I think what we're telling you is it was a really fortunate confluence of where we were in the order of people trying to do this. And, and what our characteristics were so for instance a lot of the other pieces of the puzzle already existed in Ireland like there was already a phone bank that could be trained to do the phone part of contact tracing. There was already adequate testing capabilities. There was already the fact that we don't have enough beds for a full out unchecked growth. So we had to shut down aggressively and Ireland's doing that again right now. For the same reasons, you know, we have to keep it managed. So we had, we had more discipline than a lot of countries have exhibited. But mostly also we happen to have indigenous, you know, help in the form of near form. That's a very unusual company. It's also, it's sitting in a, in a town that's only 11,000 people in this beautiful resort town that he doesn't want to leave. So it's an example for Ireland of how tech could be, you know, in the future of Ireland and and they're all looking at all of these pieces because of the success of this thing. So it's been a real springboard I think or hopefully will be for all of that. And as COVID green has been adopted in different places, right. And as, as you've helped with the roll out of that. How has it changed from one country to the next. There've been differences. Well, yeah, so different localization requirements in big cities like New York City means that we have better support for languages other than English and Irish now, right. I think I make the point that it's a real, it's actually a real case study for open source in general, like a project like this. So, you know, we're at whatever 10, probably 10 or more public health authorities now or have adopted the technology but but actually each one brings its own set of requirements. There's an awful lot of commonality. I mean if you look at the UI. I think for the most part the UI has stayed pretty much the same as the one that we built in Ireland. But then from a language perspective, I think the nine languages now. Some of them right to left right and. And then also I mean even like with the, the, the covert task force in the US like we had some really really distinguished engineers from from some of the big tech companies got involved in the project and they built a huge amount of resilience. And all that stuff into the boat boat like the testing side of things and also on the back end side of things and so, you know project on project. Actually the the incremental investment in the technology has been really really interesting, you know, so, and it's a real case study I suppose for for open source in general that that like the, the number 11 or 12 whatever whatever we're at now. Who want to pick this thing up they're getting the benefit of all the previous experiences and all the resilience and all the previous work that's been done and that just makes it a lot easier for them to with confidence be able to stand this thing up and deploy it and, and, and to know that that you know it's it's it's ready for ready for prime time, you know. Have you also been able to pull those changes back into the apps that have already launched. How has that worked. So we've said we had a release today. Yesterday, whatever day I can't remember when we pushed it in. And that included features that we had discussed that were one of them had been implemented in Scotland that we pulled it back in which is the ability to pause. There was another one which is a language switcher which either came from Pennsylvania or New Jersey, I'm not really sure which, but it was one of the states in the US. So we're getting bits like this and as we see and what so one of the, as we look at the roadmap for this we're also touching base with other teams around to say what are you thinking about what are you looking at where is this going. There's certainly core bits where we can feed in together so the core kind of DNS wrapper what it does how how that works. Also from like on the metric side of it like how we're measuring this things that we're doing so it's not that not not necessarily all of it is kind of the UX end of it in terms of features for the app some of it is actually did the thinking around how would I monitor and know this is working how do I show efficacy how do I do those things. So as other people have those ideas it gets wrapped back in and we benefit from all of that. So anything that pops up where say external security reviews anything like that that pops up and that surface is something that we should look at. That's all getting rolled back in. And we're downstream from that so we benefit straight away and we can pick and choose the bits of fit. And I think in terms of the differences so like Northern Ireland was the first other health authority who picked it up and our apps couldn't be further apart if they tried. Like the Northern Ireland app does one thing, we do lots of things right so in comparison. So it's a it's a relative piece. The design of it is fundamentally different but at the same time we do. They did their own design, right. Yeah, yeah, but we do share a lot in terms of what we do so I think there's bits there where the differences as well highlight things that we could or couldn't do or didn't need to do or should do in the future and vice versa for them, but it very much has to match the public health response in that jurisdiction. I think it's important to note as well that when we first started talking to Apple and Google, they didn't have a very good idea of how to work with public health authorities. They were envisioning a global response that sort of cut that sector out almost. And they got a pretty resounding no from Europe, because of the way data handling was going to happen. But now that they're rolling out the express exposure notification apps in California, Oregon and Washington. We're seeing that they listened and they now have a way to incorporate the public health authorities in those places as a necessary part of the picture, which I think is real progress like you have to understand that we also influence the commercial outcomes to a certain extent. Absolutely. And, you know, so Gar you mentioned a little bit about this, this global community of public health experts technologists who are all collaborating together and talking about feature enhancements and, you know, all of these pieces. You know, managing a community in an open source implementation is always challenging. How do you know who's using your product? How do you, you know, how do you know who's accessing the project? How do you collaborate with them? How do you make sure that everything's following the roadmap and heading in the right direction? How are you all handling that side of things? What's what have been the advantages there? What have been the challenges? Well, if I look at some of the stuff. So if you take the, sorry, European Federation Gateway Service, I couldn't remember what EFGS stood for. So the collaboration around that between countries was actually hosted on top of the LFPH Slack. And that's actually that's the interoperability server between different countries in Europe. And that kind of, it convened itself there. And it was one of those things that where can we meet and where can we talk and it just moved there. And I think that's kind of the infrastructure that LFPH can bring. It's, and it helps that work. Now it's not to say it's the only place there are other places and there are other areas, but it's certainly there are really rich and very deep conversations that are going on in that Slack group across the various channels that are there. And that's happening. I think some of the other stuff that's happening, it'll be very much it's, and it's, it feels like it depends on the subject of interest, right. So there's another group that's running, which is outside of that, which is to do with metrics and analytics and how do we measure and feeding into this overall piece about how do we do comparison, how do we demonstrate efficacy. And I think another recording which are another video which will come out. So Joanna Mazzal was talking about that and there was some interesting findings in that, which I think will play into what we're thinking about. And I think these kind of things as one group sparked another group to rethink some assumptions about the world. I think those things, it's all very loose and it's all very free form at the moment, but I think it kind of needs to be in a way, because I think if we were too rigid about it and we tried to, like say, well, these are the communities and this is what we talk about and this is it, it's way too soon for that. We're not at that point. I think in 12 months time, this will be a very different space, it'll be, it'll feel much more coherent and organized at the moment. There's lots of different things still happening. And standards in another 12 months. I know. Yeah. There's been some early papers on that and that's, and I think that's one of the challenges we face as well as the people saying, well, where's the standard for it, but there is no standard for a novel technology. That's not how open source works. Rough consensus and working code and then the standard. I didn't have a perspective. What's really nice is that, you know, this, this, this initiative and drive has become a kind of connected tissue across governments across continents, across public health authorities. And that's really, really powerful. So that's so powerful. Like, and again, like you find a pattern in one, in one country that sticks or a solution in one country that sticks and, and that connected tissue then enables that, that that to transfer into other countries and that's really the power of, you know, the LFPH and the open source project and the communities are plugging into that, you know, it's extremely, extremely powerful and it's very, it's very compelling. You know, as a, as a, as a, as a kind of a promoter of open source and as a software professional software developer like the, you know, the ability to be involved. The ability to start a disconnected tissue is really compelling. The ability to be involved in something whereby hopefully we're saving lives and improving outcomes. It's really, really compelling. Like it's a beautiful space and a beautiful area to be able to work in, you know, the standards and the rest of it, they will emerge from the, from the, the, the, the flurry off of activities. Took the joy and the phone out of this immediately. Yes, it'll do that too. Well, there are people for that fine standardization joyful. There must be. It's not me. So we've talked a lot about, you know, I think that we've had a lot of wins in this, in this journey together. What are some of the things that, that you wish you had done differently at some point in time throughout this project? It depends when you ask me that question. So if you ask me that question, like three months ago, I'd say no. All fine. Right. So we were, so we were incredibly fortunate with the team that we had, right? And that's across all the, all the government departments, all the partners involved in it. And also, also Keyin's team, very fortunate. Exactly. Like incredibly lucky, like the, so team in near form, team in XBO, team in ISAS, like it was, like, it was just great. And it's, I can definitively say it's the best team I've ever worked on ever, ever. Right. Hands off. It was just a pleasure all the way through. In terms of things that, but there's a little bit of me now as we get into it, and you're in the thick of it, we're into wave two, we're into another lockdown. There's a tiny piece of my soul that wishes I didn't pick up the phone on the 17th of March. Because you don't want to go through it again. Because it's like, Jesus, because it is a never ending thing, because once you're in, you're in, right? You're on this roller coaster and this roller coaster is just going to keep going. So there's a, and it's rather than, so that sounds all very negative, but actually it's an energy management thing, because something that goes on because we're running so hard. There's only so far you can run that, you can run that way. And then it's just about doing it for anybody getting in. This is not like quick up running done, like you've got to live with this stuff and you've got to live and run this stuff for a while. And deal with the fact that this is going out. It's a population scale response in most jurisdictions. So when it's out to a population, it does a difference. So when you're looking at change, when you're looking at fixing things, when something goes wrong, it's how you deal with those situations. So you can't, I mean, you can't avoid it, right? The bugs come for free. Then it's how you deal with them when they do pop up. Yeah, sustaining your energy throughout this whole process is definitely, that's been something I think we've all had to work on. Keen, what about you? What are your thoughts on things that you might have done differently? God, I don't know if I would have done too much differently. I'd very much agree with Gardo, like software is never done and software for society, I mean software, you're kind of trying to ebb and flow as things develop and adapt to the needs. And it's never done like it's not like back in the good old days and you get your software on a CD and you install it and use it. I think it's a whole different kind of worms now. And I'd agree as well with just around the whole area of, you know, there's a fatigue, you know, you're running hot for a long time without stopping, you know, and then to add to that, like, you know, you're trying to manage your home situation. Most people haven't managed to take any kind of meaningful break or holiday this year, certainly haven't been on an airplane and gone summer sunny and all that kind of thing. And so, you know, really have to just keep an eye on everybody that we don't burn out, you know, and I'd agree as well. I mean, the problem with software, software in the, you know, with a public face on it is that, you know, some some problem happens somewhere, and it doesn't matter where the problem came from it's always it's your fault like it's our fault or whatever like and, and so you have to kind of galvanize yourself as much as possible and just just try and try and roll with the punches and getting turned around and fixed as fast as you can, you know, and absolutely. Denise anything you want to add any closing. Yeah, I wish we had been successful at helping the UK and France because they are close neighbors of Ireland, and we did get a lot of our close neighbors interested in what we were doing and we will have data for our upper ability with those other efforts but, you know, I, we could have helped them get there faster and, and so I think that we have been friends of those efforts and trying to help them all along but I wish that they had sort of just taken our thing. And then likewise, you know, I am actually I did actually get on a plane in September and I'm in America right now, which is both, you know, nice and scary. Because it's such so much bigger and everything happens in such so much grander a scale and so much of this country is having unchecked spread right now. So it feels scary, right. But I'm glad that there was a decision made for California Oregon and Washington, but I also kind of hope that they will choose again and get a more bespoke app together at least in California because that's 10% of the world population of the US. And it's a very complex situation is I'm not sure when fits all is going to work for California. So I'm still kind of hopeful that we're going to find our way to helping them better. Yeah, well there there's there's definitely this this is a story that's not done yet that there's no question of that we've got, we're, you know, we've made it to a one finish line but we have we have many more to go before. I think that we get to hang up our hats. So first off, thank you for joining me today for this conversation at the open source summit. Second, thank you all for your efforts to try and get us back to, you know, back back to I won't say normal I don't know that we know what normal will be in the future. You know, back to a world where covert is not our dominant conversation on everything. Thank you all for your efforts for your sleepless nights for your many, many hours on zoom and and all the sacrifices you've made there. So I think that we're going to be around for a little while longer answering questions in the zoo in the chat and we'll hopefully get some really some some good ones from the audience and thank you all so much. And then I think if anybody does want to learn more about the Linux Foundation Public Health you can visit our website at lfph.io. And that's also the best place to go to learn more about covert green. If you want to get involved as a maintainer provides links out to the GitHub and much more information about that project overall. So we would, I think we would welcome new new maintainers and new participants within the open source community, helping out with this effort. So with that, have a have a great rest of your evening. Thanks Jenny. Thanks Jenny.