 Welcome everybody to the March 31st hyperledger TSC call. As you are all aware, two things you must divide by the first one is the antitrust policy notice that is currently displayed on the screen. And the second is our code of conduct, which is linked in the agenda. Yeah, I think everybody else everybody here knows how what the deal is there so let's get to the announcements. As always the Dev Weekly developer newsletter goes out each Friday. If you have anything that you'd like to add for your project or your lab or anything that's interesting for developers please add that to the wiki page that's linked in the agenda. The announcement that we have is the hyperledger global forum is looking still looking for CFPs. The CFP process closes on the 29th of April. So if you have a topic that you'd like to possibly discuss, please go ahead and add that to the to the CFP part. Hey Tracy yeah thanks I'm sorry to interrupt I just wanted to add to this that we are also looking for PC members for the global forum. And ideally, we'd like to select this pool from people like TSC members and you know, I would say very core maintainers. So if anyone in this group is interested, we would love to hear from you and we will be reaching out to people as well. So be on the lookout for that and you know we will talk to people as well. Okay, so yes the call for program committee volunteers coming soon I guess that means today you've just been called if you're interested. So please reach out. I guess what to you directly heart. Sure. Yeah if you're a TSC member and you want to be on it please reach out to me directly. Okay, great. Thank you. The last announcement here rocket chat is now archived and rye has created a rendered version for us for the history if you are so inclined to go look at the history. It looks really good. Right, thank you for putting that together. Thanks, you're you're all welcome. I will point out that if you have any private messages or anything like that that you want to get a copy of. Now is your your time to go log in and do that. I plan on replacing the landing page in about a week with a redirect to the to the wiki page, giving people instructions on how to get on discord. So if there are any DMs there particularly you really want to save. Now is the time. All right, thank you. Any other announcements that any of the people in the call would like to make. No, okay. Well I will make just a couple of additional things that came up this week. I know so graciously created a PR for us for the responsibilities for TSE members. If you haven't had a chance to look at that. Please do so. He put the link in, I believe it was the TSE chat. Please have a look and add any additional responsibilities that you think might be missing there any corrections that that might come up. And then the second thing that I will add is that Bobby let me know that the learning materials working group has put together a specific task force to address the question. So we got up a few weeks back around documentation and putting together some, some sort of guidelines around how we put together documentation for hyperledger so that is ongoing. If you would like to participate, I will find the link and put that in in the chat so that you can have a have the opportunity to participate in that. Thanks Tracy. So I wanted to bring this up for a while now and I guess I'll almost forgot every time, but I will quickly also talk about one of the community activity that's going on. It's related to hyperledger challenge. I remember that we spoke about this probably couple of months ago. And that hyperledger challenge is in next phase right now. So we proceeded from the application submission phase or ideation phase. We are now into prototype phase. And so far we received 29 proposals except the China region and out of which 27 of them are implementing their their projects. And we need mentors for helping out all those teams. And most of them are will be proposed as hyperledger labs project soon. So there is, we are expecting at least most of them to be to come come up and then submit that right. And for China region today was the last day and we are we're going to re look into how many submissions we have received from China specifically. But otherwise we are very good with that. So we will need help from you, most of you and many of them are requesting for help. They need help in like working on let's say fabric or they need help working on way so firefly. So most of those proposals out of 27 they're all using different frameworks and projects within hyperledger. Please do help in whatever capacity possible or redirect them to your project resources, whoever you think are appropriate. Thank you. All right. Any other announcements before we move on and agenda. So for the quarterly reports, we have the basu and the caliper reports that came in. I did notice that the majority of us have actually reviewed these as they've come in so that's good. I think there, there was a couple of questions, maybe on the basic one that haven't yet been addressed I think just one of them came in just this morning. So I thought maybe we could take a moment and just talk quickly about the incentive program for the people who are interested in what that is. So Dana Grace I don't know which one of you would like to talk through that. I'm going to take a brief overview of the incentive program. Okay, so the foundation. They value multi client diversity and main net. And they've gotten to the point where they decided to put money behind that commitment money probably is the wrong phrase but they're putting a theory behind it. And this is tied hand in hand with the upcoming proof of state transition for the Ethereum main net. So there's five consensus layer teams and four execution layer teams that they are giving. They're asking them to operate fully operable main net nodes of both the of the consensus layer and the execution layer. And in exchange for the intent is they're going to execute those with their client and make sure they interrupt with the other half of the stack. And so there are some that are given for canaries and some that are expected to be a full production grade. And for teams that meet standards that they haven't fully announced yet most of it's uptime but it's going to be moving target throughout the next I think four years for teams that meet those standards. The seed Ethereum that is used for the proof of stake will be released to that team to do it as they wish. So hyperledger basu is unique amongst the teams and that it is a community project, not just one that is fully only operated on a governance basis of benevolent dictator the other projects all operate on benevolent dictator model, but basu operates on is required by hyperledger on a community level. So the incentive program is the structure that the foundation's been working with me and consensus to make sure that the community has access to this incentive and not just one particular company that's operating within a space. Now, the structure of the incentives designed so that those who contribute to main net are the ones mostly the benefit from it. There's also a very important 20% carve out that goes to hyperledger, and also another 20% that goes to whoever operates the nodes to keep them up and running is an incentive to keep them running. So they benefit just from running the nodes as well and there's a lot of expertise that goes in with it. So the initial operators for the node to be consensus because the skill set for operating these nodes is not widely known, but that is not locked into the contract that has to be consensus however, if your foundation does have basically it's at their discretion who operates it. So if consensus is a good operator, I really don't see a reason why they would move it off of them. So that's basically a high level overview of what the incentive program is, and what the agreement that's currently being negotiated with Ethereum Foundation hyperledger to make sure that this operates and is a community incentive. All right. Great overview. Did you have a comment. Yeah, so I'm taking point on this from the hyperledger side and I've got like a full document that's in progress and if people are interested we can send it out to the whole TSE. Once it's finalized. So hopefully, yeah, Jim. Yeah, I just just a quick question on the details. The incentive I heard is to the operators and I heard consensus being one here in foundation being one and hyperledger being one. So it's likely that by operator we mean whoever is running nodes. Just curious how, how hyperledger is planning to run, run these nodes. So, Jim hyperledger is not running the nodes so there are the proposal separates the people developing the code and the people running the nodes. Yeah, even in this case. There are some overlap right because consensus is the largest contributor to basic and they're also going to be the node operator. But the EF is making sure that their funds allocated for both code contributors and node operators. Does that make sense to that answer your question. Yeah, I guess I'm particularly confused about no operators there can be random individuals who would choose to do that how maybe this is going to too much detail but No, no, totally fine. So basically the EF is going to give consensus a contract saying that you know you must operate, you know, this many nodes, or this many Ethereum validators with this software configuration you must achieve these metrics. Mm hmm. Yeah, but then this is applying to hyperledger as well. So hyperledger is not a node manager right hyperledger is a code base. Okay, I see. Okay, that's a part I was confused. Yeah, role is mainly that develop. Exactly. Okay. Yeah, so far, hyperledger has never run a blockchain or actively participated in the running of a blockchain. And it would probably take a change to the governing board charter for that to happen. So, so yeah, so that part is is not directly tied to hyperledger. Okay, if Grace is Grace is on the call. Grace can probably tell you more about the node operation if you're interested. So, yeah. Probably can reach out to Grace separately on that just want to clarify the role on hyperledger said we're saying that hyperledger will sort of become the funnel of the incentive for the developers to to compensate whoever contributed to the best to best to code base. That's coming from your foundation. Yeah, so we're the proposal is being written so that the Ethereum Foundation is. The EF is defining who they think the big contributors are. And we have this all documented how it works. But basically, the EF is dividing things into two categories. They're dividing they're taking maintainers that they think have contributed to main net and they're calling those main net maintainers. And they're creating another category called patrons, which is their way of basically saying that, you know, these people are these organizations have been long term contributors, like, you know, very long term sustained contributors. And they're rewarding those two classes, a little bit differently. That's that's plenty clear to me. If you don't care about, I'll just post my, if everybody I have a tech write up that's like in a first draft version. And I can just post it in the, the TSC chat, if for everybody that wants to see it. Just please note that this is still like, it still needs a lot of work. Don't, don't spread it too widely and don't, don't crucify me for small mistakes. But it should be in the discord now. Thanks for the background heart and down. All right, so with that, hopefully that answers that particular question that was on the project report. Any open discussion that we should have before we get to the task force discussion. I couldn't come up with any specific TSC business. But if there's something that somebody would like to make sure we discuss this week before we get to the task force now is the time. Okay. So with that, then I guess we'll get to the task force discussion. I wanted to do a bit of a switch up on which task force we were going to focus on this week. Given the availability of some of the folks on the call and the desire to move this piece along a little faster than we might otherwise have wanted if we moved it to next week so the project family is website revamp. I created this wiki page last week, which is basically the format that we would expect for any new task force that is brought to the TSC to try and elaborate on what exactly this task force is about. So, I think the pieces that I wanted to cover from this today are what specifically the task force is intended to accomplish and the deliverables that are that are coming from this so if we kind of scroll down in this document. We're going to go through the task to be completed in the list of deliverables of work products. These are the kind of the two things that I wanted to start with before we actually got involved in the the overall discussion so that we were in agreement with what the expectations of this task force are. So, to be completed, determine how we will group projects on the hyper ledger website, and then determine the criteria for projects to meet in order to obtain priority for hyper ledger foundation marketing I think those are the two tasks that are to be completed. Any commentary on that or changes to those tasks. Soon that we are in agreement. Thank you, Angela for at least a thumbs up on that. So then the list of deliverables or the work products that I think we're looking to accomplish specifically website project pages related to the project sections website main groupings and updates to the project life cycle documentation to reflect kind of the criteria that we're going to determine for obtaining priority for hyper ledger foundation marketing. Any other additional deliverables that we should add to this, or any changes to this list of deliverables. Um, so this is this might be out of scope of this particular task force, but I guess the question is how should the deliverables the particular screen reflect the mission of the hyper ledger project and the hyper ledger foundation. And specifically, and you know how, I guess that's that's my main question is, how closely should we live so that's the mission and if the deviates from the mission should one change or the other. If, if you get kind of what I'm saying. Um, so I understand the question. I don't understand the. How constrained are we to the hyper ledger mission is it a must solely fit the mission or if we see opportunities for growth. Should we reach out for those is probably a way to phrase it is the, the goals of the hyper ledger foundation a limiter or an authority base to start from. If I might. In my opinion, we're, we're open to all feedback. So, if you see yourself on the task force being limited, or you have a proposal other than your way to go. Don't hold on to it. Don't keep secrets. Give us the feedback and let's see what we can do. Okay. So I would assume that if we need to expand the mission, then that's a discussion that we should have Daniela. Yeah, I echo that and we have in the past. You know, the hyper ledger foundation of today is very different than the hyper ledger foundation 2016. So, yes. All right. Thank you Daniela for answering that question for Dano. All right, so any, any other additional thoughts on the deliverables or if there's any changes there before we start to get into the straw man proposal that has been put together. At least for, I think the first task, which is how we would group projects on the hyper ledger website. Okay. If there's no additional pieces there, then David, I don't know if you want to walk us through these, this particular proposal or how you'd like to approach this. Sure, I'm happy to speak to it and just for a little bit of background this pulls in information from a few different threads of discussion and I figured it would be helpful to create a visual that, you know, incorporate some of these different ideas just so we have something to respond at any point so this includes some of the thoughts that came from hearts project families document and include some of the threads that came out of the greenhouse task force. If people remember from that Helen's report of that task force said a number of things were surfaced in those discussions around how do we help onboard new people that weren't included in the task force you know Helen's recommendation was to have a follow up task force that you know took forward some of those threads about how do we help new people figure out what's going on in hyper ledger and how to get connected. So that includes some of these those ideas that came out of the greenhouse task force. And then just some of the observations that we've had with our designer about how do we help make things, you know, easier to find so for example people may remember grid. Quarterly report mentioned that some of the information around grid was hard to find on the website and I think some of that is fair feedback some things are fairly buried you need to click three or four times to find something. So we talked to the designer about how do we address some of those things so a number of different things are pulled together here so I'll try to just point out a few of the things that are different from the current projects information on the website and then again this is a straw man proposal just intended to be a starting point nothing on here is set in stone so you know to what rice said if you have ideas or thoughts or feedback, you know we want to hear it so please, please feel free to share so. And one other thought this also pulls some thoughts together from the recent project services document where again we were talking about you know projects at different levels get different services so. And that launches into one of the first things you may notice currently on the website, all projects are treated equally, but on this mock up you can see there's clearly a section where there are a set of projects that are getting priority placement and then. If you scroll down below further down you can see that additional projects are given. Secondary placement so that's the first thing and there's a whole discussion of which projects go where for the sake of this mock up I just had our designer take the graduated projects and give them priority placement. And the incubation projects under that I mean that may or may not be the right way to do it but you can at least see what it would look like in a design sense to what would you know, this is how one way we could give some project party placement. Another thing if you scroll up I mean I think one of the big downsides of the current landscape is a lot of the information is buried, for example you don't even see project descriptions until you click into something. So I think this is an improvement for people who aren't already familiar with what the projects are, you can see for example the descriptions here are showing. You know I think the landscape is great for people who already know what's going on in Hyperledger you can see for example the Aries logo and you already know all about it but if you don't know what that logo is is not as helpful so this is intended to be a richer project description than what's currently on the landscape so you can see the description is showing there we could use a set of tags if we wanted to do that around a given project. If you want to learn more button that would take you to a full project page and then there's a resource drop down. That's not really defined yet in this mock up, but you can imagine that if you had a resources drop down that could be for example documentation to Gris point like how do we surface some of that information at a higher level. It could be the repository it could be you know any sorts of things that we want we could put in that resource drop down so it's got this richer project placement. It could be a description field, and then one other thing to point out in the description above it also has a link to a getting started guide, you know I think one thing that we've heard from people is I see that you have a lot of projects but which one is right for me right I don't think we necessarily have a great way for people to figure that out right now so one thing that we've added in this design is a pointer like hey here's some projects but if you're not quite sure which one is a good fit, you can go here so we don't have a mock up for that getting started guy but that will be a third design deliverable that we can include in this discussion so like how would we want to help orient people to a given project that might fit their needs so that's that's taking a little bit longer than these other two mock ups but just a flag for the task force that that's something that I will share when our designer has a chance to get that back to us but that's a difference than what is currently on the projects page. So those are the three main differences about this mock up on the projects page and the current projects page and if you could go to the second mock up I'll talk about David before we get there. Grace has a question. I think I have a question as well. Yeah. Um, so I think of it. This is great like first of all, or looking good I have not been super close to this so apologies if I am not. If this has been discussed or kind of as a part of the other work going on but um, so I think it's great to kind of feature different projects and make it a little easier to understand of what they're what each of them are when we're approaching the website. I think I've mentioned this before so also like, I'm not sure if this is relevant but have we considered like framing it almost completely differently, like of, what are we trying to accomplish, not hear projects have fun, like, but I want to build a network I want to do like something like that sorry go ahead. Absolutely no no that's a good point and again, that sort of feedback is certainly welcome and maybe that's a better way to frame it and I and in my mind that's much of what would be in the good it's getting started guide we will be able to basically figure out figure out what I'm a developer and I want to do X or I'm a business analyst and I want to learn more about this sort of, you know, blockchain in this industry right so we don't have a mock up for that and we'll get it and maybe when we get that we decide maybe that should be the main page and the project stuff should be underneath that so. I mean I think that sort of feedback is certainly welcome. Yeah, so maybe just a list of projects is not the right entry point right. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, no that sounds good and like the game. I was thinking maybe the getting started guide was halfway there but yeah I think, you know for new people you know the names mean nothing right and even say like an Ethereum client means nothing. So like, but hey I want to send transactions I want to connect to mainnet I want to do this other thing. Yeah, exactly like that that means maybe something to them to a new people are familiar with our culture. Yeah, where it lives in the structure is a top level or secondary I guess we need to sort out but exactly. Yeah, I think I think that was similar to my point that I wanted to make as well I think this getting started is. I think there's actually multiple ways to look at this right I think what Grace just talked about I want to do X right is one way. I think there are people who probably want to look at all the projects and make a decision about what they want to do I think there's also, you know, it's similar to I want to but it's more like the project families that we were talking about earlier which is what this task force was designed around. You know, given whatever that higher level thing is that we're trying to create a grouping around. You know, looking at it from that perspective as well so I don't think we should be limiting ourselves on the website to one view over another view I think that all different sorts of views are interesting depending on what the person is that's coming to the website is actually looking for. So, yeah, Jim, you're. Yeah, thanks, Tracy Tracy. First of all, I like the new design of the top page. So if there's a balance between giving giving party to the graduate projects versus doing what we can to help all projects be successful, especially the ones that need to become graduated. Right now I see. I think I like the format where there's description text below the icon. Can we apply that to the other projects as well I think that will help a lot, especially if you are in the lower group, you see all icons again, you know, you don't know what they're doing. If we can put the same treatment to those group. That's just helping all the projects to to get the intention, get the attention and adoption. So they can they can become graduated one day. And that's fair. I mean, I think this goes back to the project services discussion where we had to have a balance between incentivizing somebody to go to the, you know, the steps to become graduated but also not removing so much support from the you know from the incubation level that they can't get to that point where they can get graduated. The other comments and kind of just this first view before David takes us through the second view that he has in the stronger. I'm sorry just maybe to this point. Also, just to make everyone aware is that I've also tasked the website team to look at implementing the drift app, which has been already quite successful on the Linux site. And this will also help massively with the user journey in terms of the previous questions. Can you tell us a bit more what this drift app is for those of us who are unfamiliar. It's a user journey conversational app where you can talk to the app and say hey I'm a new developer looking for X and the app will respond with specific journeys for specific people, depending on who they are where they're coming from what they're doing, etc. So it's quite sophisticated in terms of mapping out journeys specifically to people's needs. And then it will orient orientates them around the website, accordingly. I've seen a new contributor in discord who's kind of been outreaching to a number of different projects about how do they get involved with that project. How do they start working on issues and those sorts of things are something like that could potentially be a great benefit for new joiners coming in to really start to dig in and know where to go. Even outside of say the hyperledger.org website but even to, I want to go to, you know, I'm a JavaScript developer I'd like to find things that I can work on in the fabric space, and that taking you directly to say get hub with the JavaScript SDK and good first issues I think, you know, this is, yeah, that's great, that's great good news. Awesome. Any other comments then before we move on to the second mockup. Okay, so David if you wouldn't mind taking us through the second month of the second mockup is really where we get into the families and the grouping part. And, you know, I think this is key, you know, and again I think this is a downside of the current landscape you don't. You see these logos kind of floating out there but it's not clear which ones are related to which so here, this is. This is not complete I just have the designer to a couple of things don't take this as you know, you know, a complete page you know maybe there's some things missing but this is just showing you a direction we could go for. You know I asked our designer to mock up the fabric page, and you can see on the sidebar there's a section that says related project and lab so if there is a is a project that's related to it. You can see that all in one place right so this is where a grouping could occur and again you don't really get that on the landscape on the landscape itself it's not there's no real connection between one thing and another you can click on fabric in the landscape and I mean unless I'm missing something it doesn't really you know point you to these other places so a grouping could occur here. It goes back to the you know the pathways in the journey conversation we're having you can see right now on a project specific page there's no real division into content around personas so to speak so you can see here in that horizontal bar there's some content that's grouped by the type of user who may be on the page so if you're developer there's a set of links if you use the user there's a different set of links and if your business analyst there's a different link so I think that might be helpful and helping people self select into something that's more relevant for them versus where I kind of feel overwhelmed myself going to the landscape, you know I counted up all the links that were on the landscape and anyone click into a page has like 20 something links in it but it's not really divided it's really hard to know like okay of these 20 links which one is relevant for me so you know I like that this helps categorize things and helps provide at least some information for people to self select so those are the two main differences here, the sidebar with the grouping and then you know, giving the persona another minor thing if you scroll up we did also provide some sections here around tagging. I think the tagging could really be pretty open ended and this might also help people identify things so you can imagine that could be any sort of thing right what what use cases maybe or you know some technology related tags I mean it could be you know, this is, you know maybe where we could have our current groupings like it's a tool it's a DLT it's something else but you know we could, I think we have space to do, you know, almost anything with the tags so that's in the design as well, although it doesn't get into the specifics so those are the main design notes on the sub page to point out. So, the question that I have or a comic that I have is around labs. So when we when we created the labs charter. The intention was that this was an easy place for people to get involved with very little overhead or help from marketing and the hyperledger foundation staff on on that lab so I forget exactly how we stated it in the actual proposal. But you know the idea being if we were to include labs in the sidebar. Somebody is going to have to decide which labs get included there. Somebody is going to have to decide which labs are worth including there, because some of them may be more active than others and and then you've got a completely different sort of challenges that come with well why isn't my lab here. When this other lab is here or that sort of thing so I, I would hesitate to say that labs should be included on this, given the fact that this task force and kind of what we've been trained to focus on is how do we give marketing to the, the projects that have graduated or that are a family of projects that would actually, you know make sense to to market so that I think that's my, my comments on this particular mock up. Thank you and I think those are all valid concerns you know we do have a lot of labs and it's not clear what would be, you know, worth linking to for example if a lab hasn't been updated in a year and a half yeah maybe we don't link to it and I think that's a fair point. I mean I guess my counter, you know, counter thought is that I've been trying, you know, Ryan, Sean and I have been trying to support labs for a long time and one thing we consistently hear is that it's hard when we don't talk about the labs it's hard for a lab maintainer to, you know, find people in the community who are interested in what they're doing because people just don't find out about it right so it seems like a bit of a catch 22. And then it really goes to Jim's point about how do we help, you know, the efforts in the community grow and, you know, you know, attract attention, you know if we don't talk about something and if we, you know hide the information it's hard for those either those incubation projects or those labs to, you know, you know, get connected with people who may be really interested in them. So we put the lab information on there but in a clearly secondary point, you know, level below it and then we can have some clear criteria like if you haven't, you know, had an update in your lab and, you know, X many months what is it six months then you're not, you know, going to be listed and only those projects only those labs that work with another project, you know, would be on that project page would be my thought. Yeah, I guess there's a, there is a tension there, right because what we have heard, given the fact that we've created this document that says this is the support that graduated projects get versus incubated projects get versus labs that there is a tension for the time that you guys are spending on things that are not graduated or incubated, right. And is that the right tension that we want to be giving or do we want to be convincing or working with these labs to get them to be an incubated project. I don't know what the right answer is I'm just, I'm bringing it up because I think there is a tension and we need to understand what our goals actually are, are they to market graduated projects are they to market a project family are they to market labs. Right, like, I think that's the challenge that we have and probably why this task force exist is partially because of that. Agreed, yeah, and that's why yeah exactly there is a tension and what's the right balance I think we don't know and that's why this is this mock up just a straw man. You know, and it's raising questions like that so I think this is helpful and yet we're not. We're not fixed on anyone outcome, just because this is where the starting point is any comments on this particular project page kind of format from other folks. Angela. Yeah, thank you, Tracy, sorry for my voice. Unfortunately, I have a call. But I mess it up. I would this time I tend to agree with what you just said Tracy even the last time I was also supportive for the labs but what you said it's clear to me that the messaging. If we have also labs might be less clear or a bit confusing especially if a lab is still in our early stages what it means that what does it mean that it appears there and also the order then what what how do we decide the orders really I was also thinking we need the containers of the project and this case that we have fabric here, fabric mantas can decide what to highlight on this sidebar as well. But I tend to agree with you this time that yet, I mean we have to focus on the project that can can deliver their support from the clear support from the community diversity they may, they meet certain and the message would become much clear. Overall, I think I like the graphics let me say that I like this overall graphics and it's really nice. Good job. Thank you. Yeah, thanks Angela. And rest the rest of voice and get better. Peter. I just wanted to chime in on that as well. I like the designs and on the attention or lab versus everything else. Today, if I put on my user hat. As in, I have a problem that I'm trying to solve the software and I just tried on my pleasure.org. Anything that I see there. I would assume that it's not something that's in beta or alpha or an incubation or anything else less than it being ready for me to be used as of right now. And so, because of that, my opinion would be that we should provide access to the labs information but it should not be maybe from and center right next to everything else because it could create confusion. I mean, in my opinion, it will create confusion because if I don't know anything about hyperlegia. I'm just new and coming in and looking for a solution to my problem. Then I won't be aware at lab success. And in other sort of organizations similar to hyperlegia where I've seen what is front and center is always available that the people in there think should be used as of right now in production. Yeah, so I would just assume if I was this user that that is the case and that if I am presented with labs. And then I go down the rabbit hole of trying one of them out and then realize that this may never actually come out of lab. Maybe there may not be containers or any of that but you still to projects but it's a lower probability, hopefully. Then I would be slightly disappointed that this has put right in front of me on the main page. That's it. Yeah, and I think, you know, the personas are important here right because that's stopping from a user perspective. If you're, say, like the chat that I saw where, and I think it was in the welcome where somebody was saying like they're coming in as a graduate student and they're looking to try and put together, you know, some researchers some projects or that sort of thing. They might be interested in digging into labs. So I do you think that we really need to understand who the person is as we design the website and you know maybe this drift app is a good way of kind of focusing people where they need to go but I do think you've you've kind of hit the nail on the head if you will right where for a particular persona right they're not going to want to see labs for another persona maybe they do. And so I think we need to take and take that into consideration as we're designing these as well. So this kind of goes along with the observation that that Peter had, I think, and it's kind of loose to what I was was asking earlier. I think what we're starting to see and we will continue to see is the nature of the personas coming to hyper ledger is changing. And probably the best way to describe this is when people come out and say they want to build a web app today. They don't first decide whether they're using Apache or ISS or engine X, or Tom catch. They're like higher level questions about, you know, are they going on a single page app, are they going on a multi page app. You know what what front end tools what's the, what's the web app going to accomplish before they talk about the more infrastructural things. And, you know, five years ago, that was the number one question was, you know, what's the base level, level DLT because that enabled everything else but I think we've reached a maturity in the ecosystem where there's you know increasing portability between these where you ask the question of well I want to build a token I want to build an NFT market. I want to build a CBDC I want to build, you know, all the other things we might go through I want to build some supply chain stuff. So when people come in they say they need a blockchain app that's usually where they start thinking of, they don't start thinking of well I need fabric when it's on the ethereum. I need a public network they might ask things like I need a public network we need a private network. But my concern is if we build this, where the specific base layer DLT is put first. We're not enabling the audiences that are coming to us, and they're going to be coming to us and enabling them in a way that they work now we need these DLTs in pipe ledger these these are table stakes, we absolutely must have them. You know, in that extent other things that I've seen in the permissionless blockchain world is that can also lead to tribalism which makes it hard for teams to work together. When you focus on the individual blockchains themselves, rather than focusing on what people are going to build on them so that's, you know, this is probably out of scope of this particular website, but I think we should have enabled in mind so that if we do transition that, you know, we have different families that are necessarily focused we might have an integration family, we focus on these projects and that's my concern of putting a project as the lead in a group and describing the group in context of that project. So that's one of one of my concerns but I'm not convinced there's a better solution out there so this might be the best solution and we'll just have to keep our eyes on that concern to the in response to that if I may. I think to the drift app, we can we can build those kinds of kinds of journeys when those kind of questions are asked. And that's something that would be really helpful to to get your feedback on. All right, so I have a question. We're about, let's call it five minutes out from the end of the call. I feel like some of this is helping some of this discussion is helping us with determining how we will group projects on the hyperledger website. I don't think we've necessarily gotten to any sort of conversation around determining criteria for the projects to meet in order to obtain priority for hyperledger foundation marketing although we've done a bit of discussion just high level on that particular topic. As far as next steps for this task force and things that we can do in an offline manner before we meet again. I'm wondering if we should spend some time to focus in on kind of the priority for how we determine kind of what the projects are that that get that priority. Any thoughts on kind of how we would approach that or if that's the right next step. Yeah, I think there's some I put some comments on that in the project families document. Okay, so I think, you know, community metrics are a great way to look at that. But, you know, obviously, picking out those community metrics, I think is, is, you know, the devil is in the details of that one. And is that is that new or that's, that's information that was already in that project families document. It was already there. Okay. All right. So maybe we need to see if we can take a look at that project families document that Hart had put together it's linked and in the references at the bottom of the project families task page and maybe fix up this document to reflect kind of what it is that we want to do around around the project families. I think the other kind of tasks that I can see coming out of today's discussion is just the, you know, is, is there somebody who wants to put together a list of maybe those I want to use or I'm this sort of persona looking for X coming into the website. Grace. I'm not the right person I'm not. But I think what you're asking for, I mean, if we're going to do this right, we probably need like a user researcher and like a professional like to kind of go through the different personas identify the personas and then be like what's important to them. And then, and then be able to create that list you're asking for. So maybe the ask is, do we want to, yeah, do we want to hire outsource user researcher to go through the different personas of people who are entering our site and and then go from there. Or that's one option. Sorry. And Jim, I don't know it sounds like maybe you've already tasked some folks with doing that sort of thing is that correct is what is there that we could do to help with that. I've only tasked the integration of the drift app so far so the second task will be to start building out the journeys and the questions and also I'm finishing the personas to assist with that. Jim. I think we also need to define a list of functional groups that multiple projects will fit in. If they can be used to as a prominent label I think David's design has provision for that already. He calls them tech names. Those can be really useful for people when they look at the project names to sort of just have the first level understanding what they do was just looking at the club need if they've got hundreds of projects and this is very effective. When, when they list all of them in the grid, they just add a simple label of a function of what they do, container runtime that's very easy to understand. For example, and Jim, did you want to take a first stab at that, because the things that come to my mind I think are the ones that we have which probably aren't enough. And so, yeah, if you wouldn't mind taking a first stab at that I think that'd be great. Yeah, we'd love to help. Okay, great. Is there an issue that this is going to be done in. So we're just doing it on the wiki page itself. So you can either create like a sub page to that to capture that information or. It's probably best to do some page otherwise out maybe I'm just going to get really unwieldy. Okay, any other comments before we close for today. If you have any comments then thanks all for attending and I think next week our task force that will be covering is the one that we were originally scheduled to cover today. And that is the one dental I think you're going to lead us through. Yeah, I'll have some docs in the chat room on Monday for the scoping. And I think our first meeting is just going to be a brainstorming exercise. And that's the project gaps. So what projects are in the same within hyper ledger. Yep. All right, well we will see you then all next week. Thanks Tracy. Hi. Hi.