 Once upon a time we used to think of domestic abuse as purely being someone hitting someone. In the vast majority of cases, although not exclusive, it was about a man hitting a woman. That's how we used to see it. We know it works both ways and we know domestic violence can extend to other members of the family. But that's how it was once seen. But things have become more nuanced. And now we've got social media and what have you. And there are lots of different ways of controlling somebody, keeping them in line. And so the Crown Prosecution Service has had to continually update their definition of coercive control. Now the latest one update guidance sets out the various sophisticated and subtle ways that suspects can manipulate their partners to exert control over their lives and seek to minimize the likelihood of detection and punishment. Notice I said subtle. Now if you were to tell somebody that your partner continuously gives you presents, gifts, showers you with all sorts of amazing presents and praise and things like that and then takes those away. And then that's usually not done on its own. It's difficult one to tell yourself what's going on here when your friends will probably tell you you're lucky and two to extricate yourself from that. It's a really complicated issue and so many times you hear people say well if that person was just abusive just leave. It's not that easy because the art of manipulation and coercive control is insidious. It's gradual and it's very, very powerful. There is but one person to talk about this. I've had him on the show before absolutely amazing. Sam Vaknin who is Professor of Clinical Psychology and a leading authority of narcissism which is this is all part of that. Sam thank you so much for joining me again. You know as I said before when we talk about coercive control it's very difficult for somebody to get their head around it even if they're in the claws of it to know what shape it takes. Now this love bombing as I said so many people say you're lucky but just talk us through about what kind of control that is exerting and how it manifests. Good to see you again Trisha and no I'm not love bombing you. It's just simply good to see you again. Thank you for having me. I'm a former professor. I bet my position so just for disclosure. Thank you. Love bombing as the name implies is when you weaponize expression of affection and love and compassion and attention in order with explicit intent to manipulate another person into a behavior which you deem beneficial to you. This should be the definition. So how does it look Sam? I was going to say I'm just trying how does it give me some examples of how it might look when you say weaponize. Yeah but allow me with your commission before I before I proceed one disclaimer we need to define when we criminalize behaviors we need to define them really really really well because if we don't define them really really really well and delineate all the nuances with precision we will end up criminalizing romance we will end up criminalizing sex and many many young men are already terrified to approach young women because so many aspects of intergender interaction have been criminalized I would even say excessively. Yeah now this this is no exception love bombing is is pathological dysfunctional and abusive it's manipulative it's an integral part of coercive control however if it is not well defined we may end up criminalizing totally legitimate lovely charming enchanting behaviors between people and unfortunately from the little that I've seen love bombing is wrongly defined with in the crown prosecution services documents. Oh wow so so so what so what does it look like then where are they going wrong because as you say young men are terrified. Yes here are the minimal elements that should exist in any definition proper definition of love bombing first of all it should be over the top it should be unbelievable incredible no reasonable person would ever accept the contents of love bombing as real or truthful number two it should be premature in other words the compliments the affection the attention the gifts should come too fast and too early so on the first meeting you're the most amazing woman in the world the second meeting there's an offer of marriage and at the end of the second meeting you're already planning to have three children together and you're discussing the college funds right that's premature number three it should be ill founded the compliments in love bombing have nothing to do with you so even you feel as the victim of love bombing even you feel that something's wrong you're being described in a way that nothing to do with you we call this idealization the compliments are actually directed it's an idealized image of you which is totally fictional so love bombing must include a pronounced element of fantasy in the absence of fantasy it simply might be a dysfunctional way of courting or a flirting gun or eye if there's no fantasy fantasy is crucial number four love bombing must be a part of a pattern of behavior misbehavior known as coercive control if it is divorced from coercive control it should not be criminalized number five number five love bombing should be a part of what we call in psychology intermittent reinforcement intermittent reinforcement means you get conflicting messages fast on the hills on the hills of each other so thought and called i love you i hate you i want your company i don't want to talk to you let's chat i'm blocking you so this is called intermittent reinforcement it disorients you you become disoriented you don't know how to decipher the other person's behavior you try to please the other person you become submissive you're intimidated and you're manipulated intermittent reinforcement is a crucial part of coercive control and there is no love bombing without intermittent reinforcement in other words so you're continuously you're continuously trying to keep that person in the the positive sort of thing on their toes on their toes so you said right at the beginning it comes too early now i remember going back in my single days this chat we'd had like the first date i was amazing and and all this sort of thing and i was ostensibly there for a completely i've been invited there for a completely different reason to talk about mental health what have you then you're amazing and what have you all this sort of thing and then the next thing he's saying i'm trying to figure out this thing which house we're going to live in and i'm like so i use it i mean that was like the second date and you sort of think whoa whoa whoa now you talked about the although that can't be criminalized to take it from hot and cold and black and white that would still be a flag should still be a flag i'm saying for anyone in a relationship to be wary yes am i right absolutely intermittent reinforcement in the vast majority of cases is a manipulative control instrument it's intended to control it's intended to create such uncertainty in your mind it's intended to gaslight you into doubting your own judgment and perception of reality at the other person's behavior their motivations etc so that you become dependent on the other person's input he becomes your reality test you and so then you lose your independency and agency you become an extension of that person and you because he has the capability to withhold affection from you to withhold his love to withhold the pleasant times together you want to motivate him to give those back to you and so you try to please him to the point of denying yourself and your need let me let me throw something at you sam because we're talking about in a in a relation physically at all no no we're talking about in a relationship i've seen this play out in workplace situations of course and and and and work wise and that legally in every other way is very difficult to prove we're a boss right at the beginning is talking about you're amazing you're this and then the next bit uh you know you're rubbish and you need me you don't need me calling you in appropriate times i'm only calling you at these inappropriate times because i can't do this work without you and then you did can it happen in a workplace situation or am i ah no i think you're very right i think two two additional shortcomings of the cps definition of of love bombing is limiting it confining it to intimate romantic relationships when it's absolutely untrue it can happen in church it can happen in a workplace it can happen between a teacher and a student it can happen if love bombing is a universal universal manipulative tactic second thing the cps does not make a distinction between love bombing which is the outcome of mental illness for example people with bipolar disorder they love bomb in the manic phase people with borderline personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder love bomb because they can't tell the difference between truth and lies in fantasy people with with other psychotic disorders they love bomb because they can't tell the difference between internal and external and so on and so forth these people these people are not acting criminally they're just playing out their mental illness yeah and there's no such exemption or mitigation in the cps's definition of love bombing that's catastrophic that's absolutely wrong and so it's so i think the key the key is coercive control is the love bombing does the love bombing lead to a coercive control scenario is it embedded in a coercive control strategy or is it a totally independent behavior that goes nowhere if it goes nowhere if it goes nowhere it's just a warning sign you wouldn't want to have a relationship with someone who jumps to conclusions in the first meeting yeah it is however if it is embedded in coercive control it should absolutely be criminalized i fully agree because it leads to it's the corridor that leads to coercive now with your permission i would like to give the indications of coercive control it's up to you yeah well we're just we're just about sam we're just about to run out of time and i don't want to have to interrupt you in the middle of that what i i and i did this last time because you where i talked to you it generates so much interest can we leave people hanging would you mind coming back on the show because this is something like a really the whole thing about it being in the workplace as well i know people are going to be like whoa they haven't thought about that and and how the cps definition needs to be expanded sam we will talk again thank you so much so sam batten in there with some really interesting stuff about coercive control and as i said before we will be talking more about that coming up we've got a lot lot more about bringing in legislation that prevents obese people being discriminated against good idea or not that and a lot lot more right after this break so stay with me here on talk tv see you in a moment