 Welcome to Cooper Union. What's happening with human rights around our world on Think Tech Live, broadcasting from our downtown studio in Honolulu, Hawaii in Moana, New York. Today, we're looking at the UN Special Operator on the promotion of truth, justice, reparation and guarantees of non-reoccurrence. Looking at a visit recently to Scandinavia focusing on the Sami people. Fabian, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much. It's my great pleasure. Fabian, you share with people who aren't familiar with the UN. What is a special repertoire? And how does that work? And is that part of the UN Human Rights Council special procedures? Well, the UN mechanisms for promotion and protect human rights are divided in two great big branches. So the first one is the treaty bodies. That means the bodies for monitoring the conventions, created by the conventions. They are called committees. And the other branch is the special procedures. Special procedures are working groups composed by five people or special reporters, like me, an individual post, independent experts, not paid, and with expertise in one particular topic. Now, there are more or less 60 special procedures in the UN system. And my mandate is on transitional justice. Yes, that. Excellent. And what's so exciting about the work that you do is, as a special repertoire, usually I have a couple of roles. One is to write studies that then develop or share the evolving of international human rights norms. And the other is country visits. Could you share with us a bit about the most recent country visit? And then maybe we can also get into some of the systematic work that you've also been doing. Perfect. So, well, the mandate is how to deal with the past. How to deal with the past. Because the title of the mandate is Truth, Justice, Reparation, Warranties of Non-Recurrences. And I'm not the High Commissioner for Human Rights. So I'm not judges of all type of reparations or all kinds of seeking the truth. So it's for the transition from a dictatorship to the democracy or exit from an armed conflict to the peace and stable situation. And I decided to introduce the possibility to apply the mandate to the legacy of colonialism. So how the new citation is dealing with the past in terms of mechanism for seeking the truth, provide justice, establish reparation in the concept of full reparation for victims. I'm talking about a restitution, economic compensation, psychosocial support, measures of satisfaction, like apologies, for instance, and the adoption of law and practices for the non-repetition. The fifth pillar of the mandate that it was introduced because I produced a report, a thematic report, is memory, memorization processes. And yes, as you said, we are charged of developing the International Human Rights Law with the thematic reports and particular studies. We receive and send communications to the governments, expressing concerns about different situations inside of the mandate. And one important, one relevant task is the country visit. So we go to the field, we visit the countries, and we produce a report after many consultations, interviews with stakeholders. And that is the case of the last two visits I conducted to Finland and Sweden. So I had many interviews with the governmental officers from different departments and ministers and also with NGOs, even society, also with victims and families of the victims, academia, journalists. And what I presented as usual, an end-of-mission statement, one in each country, one in Finland and then in Sweden. And I will present the full report of the visits for the two countries in the month of September to the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva. So it is exciting to look at the situation of the Sami people. We know they're the indigenous peoples of Scandinavia in the Arctic Circle and beyond. Can you share some of your initial impressions of how Sami human rights are being denied and some of the recommendations maybe that you saw that could maybe improve the daily lives and have a positive impact on public policy as well as on the Sami people's desires? Sure, sure. I decided to ask the three countries for an official visit. So I asked a visit to Norway, to Finland, and to Sweden. All three countries accepted the visit. But Norway did it in last time, in the last minute. So it was impossible for me to arrange the agenda for go to Norway also. So I guess the next visit of the mandate will be on Norway to continue this examination because Sami people is not based in just one country. It's also in Russia. So you have in four countries. But at least I was in Finland and I was in Sweden. I'm not the rapporteur on indigenous people. So that's another special rapporteur. So my focus was in how both states are dealing with the former policy of assimilation. So the both countries had an express policy with the church of assimilation of the people. And the consequences today are painful for the community. Because, of course, the culture and the language of the Sami people is in danger, is in danger for different reasons. And also they are facing a terrible situation with the discrimination and hate speech in both countries. And that is one of the main concerns. As you know, in my previous life, I was a member of the Human Rights Committee. And the first country under examination when I arrived to the committee in 2009 was Sweden. And the committee expressed concerns about the Sami situation. In 2016, when I leave the committee, again Sweden presented the report. I was chair of the committee in that time. And if you see the minute they are public, I said expressed to the government the problem of the Sami population and the government took the engagement in ratifying the ILO Convention 169 on indigenous peoples. But they didn't. So the last week I highlighted this particular situation. And deeply, because when we think in the countries of the Scandinavian Peninsula, we think countries with a very high level in terms of human rights in general. No, that's the general impression around the world. And it's shocked to discover then they did practically nothing in terms of truth. They are just starting the process with one truth commission in Sweden and also in Finland. They did not provide reparations at all. At all, just one apology from the church, from the Sweden church to the Sami population because they are working very close with the Sami population. I'm talking about the Lutheran church. No compensation. And in terms of non-recurrence, well, I guess both sides are doing practically nothing against the hate speech and the discriminatory speech. And that is a problem. Also, there are some problems in terms of education. So because they are schools in Sami language, I visited the regions. I visited Inari in Finland. And I was in Kiruna in Sweden that were very interesting for me because I met the Sami people. I met this with the Sami parliament in both countries. And I was in schools seeing how is working the education system in Sami language. And of course, both sides are making progress, but there are not enough teachers in Sami language. And there is no clear policy to strengthen the education in Sami language. In other aspects, we must recognize that there are some progress, especially in repatriation. Repatriation of objects of the Sami people and one very, very important thing human remains in both countries. And that is a good policy that I found in both countries. But they are an enormous way to go yet. No, it's important to see your firsthand account and based on your visits what you were able to recognize because the recommendations provide a path forward for reconciliation and also realization of rights. And I appreciate the holistic perspective of seeing your role as chair of the Human Rights Committee and seeing how those committee recommendations also contribute. And it's definitely important to bring up the International Labor Organization, the oldest UN specialized agency program and fund over 100 years old. And why that 169 important convention would actually add tools to be able to help the Sami people to realize their rights. All those aspects all build up really the case for social change in Scandinavia and looks at what could be possible. Could you maybe share a bit also as you mentioned the Sami parliament? Do you believe those are important institutions and how do those actually promote and protect Sami rights and how do you think they could be part of the solution going forward with your mandate on transitional justice? Yeah, definitely both are important. Not strong are should be unfortunately because the mandate of both parliaments are a little bit limited. But anyway, it's important to have a Sami parliament in each country. I visited both places. There is a place in Finland and there is no particular place in Sweden, but I met people, I met the president of the chair of the Sami parliament in Sweden. They are charging in issues of education, culture, et cetera. But both countries, they did not adopt a law according to international standards to pay attention to the Sami boys. That means, yes, there are consultations, but the problem is which is the effect of the consultation. So as you know, the standards is the prior and informed consent, and that is totally different than consultation. And in Sweden in particular, there is a problem of balance of different interests, not the industry of mines and tourism and other industries. And while my message to the government was, yes, but one thing is interest, another thing is right. So you must pay attention to the interest fulfilling the rights of the people, because it's not exactly the same. So the situation is delicate, but there is an opportunity and it will be very, very relevant, the job of both truth commissions. So the recommendations of the commissions must be clear. Clear. And I highlighted the importance of having tools to fulfill the recommendations, because I don't know if you are aware, but in Sweden, it was the truth commission for the Torne d'Aliens, and the report was adopted, but no follow-up. So if we have a report with recommendations and just that, it will be frustrating for Sami people and would be frustrating for the international community. We brought up some really good points, especially about free prior informed consent that's enlisted and featured up to six times in the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples. We know the Sami people are striving for the right of self-determination and all the rights enshrined in the UN Drip, and the country visit by the repertoire does provide that opportunity to organize to achieve the articles of the UN Drip, and your recommendations definitely looked at that. Could you share some of the initial steps that you believe should be taken in both countries to then begin the path to really achieve reconciliation? Well, yes. The transitional justice process must be holistic. So you cannot pick just one issue and erase the other. So it's not seeking the truth. It's not memorialization. It's not reparations. It's not justice. It's all the package. It's not all the package. One concern some Sami people express to me is we don't want apologies if it's just an apology. And that is important. And in terms of memorialization, for instance, boarding schools are not memory sites. So there is not one plague. There is no one mark saying, OK. And the policy of assimilation was brutal. It was really brutal. So I guess we need a holistic approach. And the Sami parliament must be involved. Involved in very active way in the process. Because for the success of a process of transitional justice, you need a victim-centered approach. If not, the process will fail. No, that's really important. As you definitely were on the front lines meeting with directly impacted people, that absolutely is the core of the human rights framework going forward. Can you also share some of the other important issues that the Sami people shared with you? Well, yes. They are really concerned about the development of industries in the area, especially for the rain hordes, because the way of life you have, part of the Sami are nomads, and it's a problem for them if the ecosystem is targeted. And they express that. And also other Sami people have concerns about the licenses for hunting and fishing. Because this is the way of life of the people. But especially, the main concern is not having a voice respected and listened. Even if there are some progressives, for instance, in Sweden, the Sami are recognized as indigenous people according to the constitution. And there are some progress in legislation, but very, very, very slow. It's the first step. And it's in an ambience very electric. Because the discriminatory speech and the hate speech, and in some newspapers, right issues that they are totally lies, but saying that, well, the Sami people have too much power, and it's against the development of the country, is a problem. Because they try to put Sami people as enemies. And that is the problem. No, I remember visiting there as well. It was shocking to hear that in Norway, Sweden, Finland, the racism towards the Sami people, and also on the most basic aspects. They brought some very important cases around fishing rights, but also around reindeer herding as well that you shared. So both are absolutely crucial. One thing I did want to look at, as I really appreciate your work as a rapporteur, is also the exciting work that you do as an author. And I think probably one of the reasons that also it was important to nominate you for this role is also Argentina's important role. And many people are familiar with the film 1985. But maybe you could share a bit about what it's like growing up in Argentina and how that also shaped your perspective in this important role as rapporteur. Well, yes, Argentina was a unique example in this area. Because especially the trials and the prosecution of the perpetrators was unique, a unique example. And a guide for the development of the international criminal law, now we have the Rome Statute and all that. And also in memory, Argentina is, I guess, a good example. A good example. But there are good examples in different countries. And in particular topics, not in all, but in particular topics. For instance, the Truth Commission of Colombia was great. Was great. So I visited the country and it was great. In terms of justice, I visited the Balkans also. And not bad, the job, OK, the international tribunals, but also the residual mechanisms inside of the countries in the Baccanic Peninsula is really interesting. And in terms of reparations, for instance, the psychosocial program in Chile is a very good example. So transitional justice is complex. It's really complex. But they are good examples. For me and my message for all governments is the following. This is not political will. These are state obligations, state duties. And the political will is to fulfill the obligation. But these clear international duties according to international human rights law. Because it's impossible to reconciliation without really justice, reparations, and truth. Very important lessons and inspiring to see really those lessons, the words of wisdom, to see where we can do that around the world. Could you share briefly as well other small examples where you see truth reconciliation, transitional justice, making that important step towards really social justice for all? Well, in the Inter-American system, after some judgments of the Inter-American court of human rights, the apologies presented in some cases were really relevant. And today, it was an apology in one case against Guatemala, in the case of Vélez Franco. And it's important for victims and it's important for the community. Really important in many lessons. I think we can learn here in Hawaii as well so that we can have a better future that's rooted in fundamental freedoms and also rights for all. Thank you so much, Fabian, for the work that you've done for the decades and the important work that you do as a professor as well, but also in these exciting roles as special rapporteur and with the UN human rights treaty bodies. Mahalo. Mahalo, my great pleasure have been with you. All the best. Allah. 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