 Yeah, that's it Okay, so welcome everybody to this third Webinar of the European distance learning week organized by Eden Today we are focusing on Open education and we have we can see here in the Videos the four presenters of the day that I will introduce in a moment Can I can I get my slides so I can show the agenda and basically the the idea of today is to tackle the issue of open education that as you know is Different Declinations being OER MOOCs educational practices is pretty present in all conference all over Europe and beyond at least the Eden is very much present across the whole conference the area of this webinar is to Not really the other one Yes Well, the idea of the webinar is basically to Tackle this issue from three perspective which are in the three perspectives that count in our understanding that are the perspective of the Teacher the professor the instructor so that is the micro level then we have a meso level at the level of the Organizations, so typically the university leaders and university managers and finally the policy perspectives one of our Well, one of my beliefs which is shared by a number of colleges that these three levels often do not talk to each other So sometimes policy is not really working as it should sometimes you have innovators that are not recognized by the middle level So there is something going on between and among these these three levels and the idea of this webinar is a first of all to receive Some presentations by representatives sort of these three levels and then to have a discussion on Through a discussion Among these these different levels sort of so we will start first of all by a Contextual presentation by andrei and amorato dos Santos from the JRC in civil the research center of the European Commission They did a lot of what they are doing a lot of work on open education trying to framework frame it sort of especially in higher education I think it's very valuable work. Thank you, Andrea for being with us and Providing this first framework and then we will go with lasenka first then Lisa Marie and then Alan with the three levels micro meso and and macro The idea is to have 15 minutes for every presentation after which After 13 minutes, I will reappear on the screen to to let you know that time is almost over and Then in the meantime participants can use the chat to to pose questions or comments to that presentation that I will try then to to Pause to the the speaker of that presentation and then at the end if you're good in keeping the time We will be able to have some 20 minutes discussion where I will have back the Four speakers in a sort of a virtual panel to discuss both with With the participants through the chat and among themselves Basically, the main question is how could we what could we do what should be done to make these three levels? Work better together, let's say and interact better what what would be the the main barriers and actions to be to be taken Christina, can I have Andrea's slides? So that we can start right away So basically participants can use the chat for questions comments and any doubt And then I will try to facilitate the The responses from from the speakers. So I will now close the Speakers windows. I hope you can So to leave only Andrea speaking so Andrea the floor is yours for 15 minutes Thanks very much Fabio. Hello, everyone My colleague speakers and participants. It's a pleasure to be here today having received these invitations from Eden. No, I did European distance learning week. I'm here presenting on behalf of my team Of the work we do here and also if we need our project leader here and the JRC as some of you mentioned We are the European Commission's in-house science Institute and we carry out research in the field of education But we actually do not Make policies here. This is just a clarification. We try and have research We carry out research to provide Evidence to help policy makers both at the European Commission level And also at the member states level. Okay, this work. I'm presenting today is Work that we carried out on behalf of the G education and culture the GAC I've been asked to talk about Open education in a broad way particularly in the European agenda how it appears in the European agenda of policy, let's say and And mostly to discuss a little bit our understanding of the concept of open education what we mean what's the working definition that we have of Open education. So first of all this work that I'm showing today has started in September 2013 the open edu project it's part of the open edu project and It was designed designed especially to support the communication passed by the Commission then opening up education But it also touches upon at different policy levels as for example the European and training each 2020 policy priorities, there are six important priorities and priority number three I'll read for you is open in and innovative education and training Including by fully embracing the digital era. So this work is also Relevant to to help achieve policy priorities in the you being open education an important one So the first thing is to ask the question. What is open education? And I'm sure that if you go around and ask your colleagues or students what open education means You're gonna hear different answers At least this is what happened to us when he asked many many different people from different profiles from different countries in the EU And some people would relate open education to open educational resources to OER for example Because it's a very popular term It's a very popular concept that are many universities and teachers working towards opening up resources by means of using open licenses So some people would equal open open education to OER Others would first think of MOOCs for example, which are becoming extremely popular in universities as well But quite often there wasn't much of this perspective that open education has evolved over time As a term, you know as a way of carrying out education itself It's not a new term. It dates back from the 70s And with the advance of technologists for teaching and learning Let's say open education has been evolving and has becoming let's say a way of carrying out education more in the digital way And and this is what we tried and show a little bit in this working definition that we've That we've created this definition has been discussed with a lot of experts here at JRC in Seville Both from Rectors from universities and also with the open education experts via online VCs So we try and make it a very broad like an umbrella term open education, which would accommodate Below it a number of other small definitions or different ways of looking at open education Let's say whether focusing on OER, on MOOCs, on accessibility, on access in different ways, on Free of charge content, but most importantly, I think for us is to To focus on the fact that open education helps bridging Formal and non-formal learning so recognition is a very important part of open education in our view But also we wanted to move beyond The concept that open education and OER are synonyms. We take the perspective They are not open education open educational resources that extremely important in open education But they are part of it as well as many other dimensions, which I'll show you in a minute. Okay So moving on the opening of the project just very briefly as I mentioned is a research study that we have already published Many reports I'll show you in a minute, but just to give you a perspective from the research side We carried out research in EU member states Both in qualitative ways and quantitative ways in order to gather information from universities So it focuses on higher education on their perspectives Whether they are offering open education or not and if so how in what format what is their understanding whether they are working on the recognition of non-formal learning and Collecting all this quantitative and quantitative information that I show you in the diagram in there from all these Substudies of the project. We then developed to the framework. Okay So important facts from surveys, which is part of the open survey without this is just for us to position a little bit This let's say somehow the state of the art as far as we know of open education in Europe But just remembering this date this data dates back from the the end of 2015 We only published this year, but the research was carried out in 2015. So on a survey of five countries 23% of universities claim to have had some financial benefits of open education because many people ask so open education Why should I be doing it? What would I gain? And yes Some universities have developed a strategy in the model in which they say more students reach actually increases enrollment We manage to get a lot of external funding and also even generate a small income So it's something to think about then 51.4% of these universities in these five countries Which is this is a representative survey Argue they use open educational resources, which seems really good. It's more than than half But 35 points to develop and offer OER So it clearly means some of that most of them use but not of them really are very engaged in producing And and offering which is interesting this can be debatable, but this is what came out from our survey Then 42.5% of these universities in these five countries offer MOOCs as part of their institutions educational strategy and this whole work is about a strategy thinking whether I need the university has a strategy or not and Whether it would be beneficial to have an open education is strategy instead of just having isolated Practices to offer open education in one faculty or another interestingly Nearly 50% say they it's part of their educational strategy but only 32.2% Mention open education as a policy or have a proper institutional policy or Mention open education in their mission statement. Okay, so we argue that open education should go beyond Isolated practices and actually be part of the institution's strategic and mission statement and to finalize I Also put the data where you can find further information on this Collaboration in MOOC recognition because we think it's a big step forward talking about the recognition dimension 41.4% of this universe to say they collaborate nationally to recognize MOOC certificates and Interestingly 3.9 do collaborate cross-border. What do we understand from this? There is a lot of Still lack of transparency or how we do things, you know making it clear within the institution and communicating it to the world and to the other institutions and We tend to think that the lack of transparency in certain university practices and the strategy makes Collaboration opportunities less visible, right? So this is one of the findings that we had in our study So this framework that I'm going to show you Is was designed to work as a tool It does not bring full definitive answers to everything, but it was designed to work as a tool to help Policy makers at an institutional level to design policies for open need for open education So basically it is a guide to help people to think through critical questions And and then to engage with this framework in order to come up with both assessing their own institution Both assessing their own institutions, but also Try and design strategy Sorry, is this is this for me that the voice is echoed I'll I'll carry on but I'm afraid I can there's nothing else I can do about it. I can hear you very well Okay, because I've received messages that my voice is not very clear and I apologize But I'll carry on. Yeah, always fine. It seems it was a perfect. Thank you Thanks. Okay, so here's the framework. Okay These are the ten dimensions that we've identified and you may ask me, but Andrea, where is OER, you know, where are most They are included in the content dimension of this framework, okay So this is the visual representation of the framework Imagine that if you were to go inside of each of these dimensions You would find and you will find further information in each one of them. Okay So the six dimensions in the center We call them the core dimensions and the four dimensions outwards We call them the transversal dimensions that dimensions remembering that They do not work in isolation. They are dependent upon each other. They have like let's say an interdiscursive relation to one another But then we bring them to the front of open education in order to To prompt thinking, you know What is my university doing towards the recognition and collaboration and try and bring and move it a little bit our way of staying in the same discourse of Equating open education to open access or OER only they are extremely important parts But there could be more and we could reach much much more our goal of modernizing higher education If you were to think more in terms of this holistic way of open education Okay, the framework as I said presents a definition for the dimension of rationale components and over 150 descriptors in each of these dimensions that you can look at And think of the all possible practices that you or your university can take towards open education As I mentioned it's dynamic The university can can adapt it can be used it can choose which dimensions to work with And can customize the framework, but I think the most important thing is that by engaging with the framework If the idea is that it would help to Think about and perhaps even with structure is strategic actions at a broader university level on open education Here's an example of what you can find in the report in terms of the content dimension just a sample No, so we have a definition for content and then we explore what we mean And then we talk about OER and then we talk about free of charge content. We think OER is extremely important We do suggest and understand the importance that content in open education is fully open license To enable views sharing, etc. But we also acknowledge that in our research Free of charge content that is not licensed open licensed, but is open to the learner It still appears a lot in practice And we could not ignore that fact and leave it out and this is why we put it here We consider free of charge content also part of open education is contributing to opening up access to education Although we do try and stress the importance of making this content open licensed whenever possible Okay, thank you. So again here are how the descriptors appear So university could use this checklist for for example to say this interests me This does not interest me So on and so forth at the end of the report we have a strategic planning template also to help This thinking through these questions. Okay, so these are some of our our reports The only one missing there is the open cases report But all of these have already been published The middle one is the open survey that I showed you before The first one is about validation of learning and we're going to talk about this in the webinar tomorrow In the last one on the right is the opening up education report in which we present the open education work Thank you very much. And if you have any questions, please Well, thank you very much Andrea. That was absolutely in time And on time and very very precise Well a quick comment on my side, I think this This whole work you are doing through this multiple research efforts Is basically correct me if I'm wrong is basically aiming and at opening up the the perception that people have of open education so at providing an holistic view, I mean More I would say A broader view that touches upon practically all the dimensions. I would say of a university life and Mike I have just a question quick question You mentioned the strategic planning template And also Lisa Marie is asking if they are available in the report. So Are you aware of any university who has already used this or is planning to do so? Or is it is maybe too early? Okay, this is a very good question Fabio thanks for asking because quite often we forget to mention about this template But it's actually just a roadmap. It's just a guide to help people interact with the framework and if the scriptures Because this framework has only been published recently in august, which was even during a vacation period We don't know yet of any university that is Let's say using it or or piloting it I could even say that because this the framework is it's a product of research So it's very theoretical, but we would really like to see how it works in practice Even in order to have feedback and to see if it's really helpful. So to date I don't have I don't know of any university that is actually using the template itself But I'm sure that some of them were considering it. We're discussing it at a higher level at the university and maybe using it shortly Well, in fact, Lisa Marie later on will will present the issue of an education from an institutional strategy perspective So maybe she will have some some comments and some possible use on that. Lisa Marie has a question on on that Perhaps MOOCs Could be could be considered a platform slash channel used to realize the 10 dimensions. So MOOCs as a transversal platform I would say a channel To to to develop all the dimension or do you see MOOCs limited to the content area Actually, no because we do talk about MOOCs in more than the content dimension But I think you're right as I mentioned before there is an interdiscursive relation between all those dimensions They depend upon each other. So yes, MOOC as a platform. So MOOC as technology Definitely as a way of changing pedagogical practices. Definitely as a way of sharing content and even Creating content with the learner's interaction. Definitely as a way of collaborating Even in terms of recognition collaborating with other universities as I mentioned before Definitely as a way of carrying out research of increasing access. So indeed, I think MOOCs can indeed Such upon all the same is true for OER. I mean, I see OER as a transversal issue more than something limited on content But I mean, you know, you know, my opinion on this of this effort this majestic effort and trying to do to open up the vision So Congratulations from my side. I don't know if there are other comments You still have time also during the to think of questions for for Andrea We have Alan typing Okay Good. So thank you very much again, Andrea. We'll we'll see you again in the final panel now. I'm asking Blazanka to appear visually and In terms of sound on the screen Because now we are starting with Yeah, just to say I've also shared this slide It seems like share for anyone who wants to have access to this line Perfect. Thank you. And it there will be also in the hidden In the hidden platform. Okay, that's great. Thank you very much Okay, now we move to the first, I would say critical dimension possibly Mind understanding one of the most critical that is the the dimension of the the micro dimension So how are teachers? How are it support staff? How are Even student representatives dealing with the issue of opening education opening up education, which as we heard is not only about Is much more than just applying an open license for as much as this can be important But that's upon really many I would say in all the dimensions including finance of The life the daily life of for example a professor So we will hear on a case from Croatia We have Blazanka Divjak from the University of Zagreb with us with a Reproposing a presentation or from a paper which won the best research paper award In the last Eden research workshop in Oldenburg So congratulations to Blazanka and to your colleague Antonia that cannot be with us today Blazanka, can we see you on the screen? I'm here. I'm just waiting. Good afternoon Yeah, happy to be on a webinar. I'm just waiting for my slides to appear, but uh, I think they are there Okay, okay. Good. Thank you. Are they? Yes. Thank you Can you come over on the screen? Um, I'm available because my camera is working. I think that we're just waiting for the technical side from your side from Eden to start Okay, maybe you should click up there to make it green. Oh, yes There you are. So 15 minutes also for you. The floor is yours and thanks and congratulations again for the best research paper award Thank you Fabia. Thank you everyone for participating in this webinar. I think that it's very interesting topic, but also That we have a lot of work to do and to explore further what I'm going to present Today, it is how we use MOOCs in traditional classrooms in a way of blended learning Approach that is a joint work. I I did with my PhD student Antonia Bralec as Fabio said, uh, she she she She is not present that's a pity because she really did a lot of work in on Research in this on this paper, but I'll try to pick it up for you Working through this presentation so, um What I'm trying to do, um, it is to describe how we use massive open online courses That was initially designed as a standard loan product But we try to incorporate this, uh, approach into the blended learning, uh, program in a traditional face-to-face learning so, um Not to to supplement a traditional Learning course, but to use it as a tool to achieve certain learning outcomes for Especially for target special target is here part-time students So, uh, there are a lot of benefits of incorporating MOOCs into the traditional traditionally thought course thought course Replacing lectures augmenting or replacing secondary materials or some filling gaps in expertise For example, if you have some special special issue or some, um, rather hard learning outcomes for some some teachers or students then exposing students to other styles of teaching and classroom discussion as well Or putting some accent on some generic skills, uh, or, um Teaching students how to teach or learn online So that that was our goal almost all of them and, um, of course we were aware of the downsides of MOOCs like Pulse rate or some some other issues That we that we can find in literature Um, what we did are trying to describe a case study So we incorporated MOOCs into the teaching and learning in a course in the course discrete mathematics with graph theory that is course that is, uh, Thought in the first year of master level of study programs information system and software engineering at the university of zybot faculty organization informatics each year we have around 100, uh, students And we have a mixture of full-time and part-time students So between, uh, 80 90 and 90 percent of students are full-time students are able to participate in Physically in classes and the rest are part-time students and Almost all of them actually are working So for them, it's quite difficult to follow classroom activities or some classroom work or, uh, project work So, um, how we started we, uh, started our planning with constructive alliance We try to align Learning outcomes of the course with the teaching and learning methods assessment methods and also to assess student workload To incorporate it in this model What's interesting then of course we have, um Between I think that we have eight learning outcomes, but two learning outcomes are connected to the use How we use MOOCs in in this course So the first learning outcome Here it is solve real world problems in ICT with methods from graph theory and discrete mathematics individually and in collaboration in teams And then the second use mathematical literature for multiples sources at least one tool for processing mathematical language and And learning system having specific characteristics Charities of mathematics in mind So, uh, if you look at these two learning outcomes We, um, we use, uh, two different teaching and learning methods for for these two learning outcomes First one is student working teams of three on posing and solving authentic problems And, uh, usually there are three or four at most four students together. Uh, first, um Posing and then solving some authentic problems by the use of algorithms and the theory from the from the course But what we noticed that for the part-time students, it's quite difficult to participate in this teamwork So we try to find some alternatives for them And, uh, this alternative Is that student can participate in selected MOOCs Um, we use Usually MOOCs on on Coursera And then after that in assessment part Uh, for the first a method of method of teaching and then assessment of this project work teacher assessed The work, but also there there is a peer assessment of problem solving Based on prepared criterion scoring rubrics. We also, um, try to develop, uh, alternative Um, alternative assessment for for those students that participate in selected MOOCs And what we use we look at the performance their performance in MOOCs that Is 90 of a final grade then students are obliged to carry on with a diary and learning Learning diary and we analyze the diary diary and students Present what they learned In MOOCs in particular MOOCs to other students that's all together is 10 percent Of the final grade What is also critical it is, um To, um, evaluate and look at the student workload So we calculated that approximately it is one and a half ECTS so 20 percent of the course because the course is seven ECTS all together And then, uh, it means that we have to find MOOCs that, uh, approximately Approximately have 40 working hours And I think it was really critical and also we added, uh, we added this 20 Hours coming from the, uh, the second learning outcomes. So the use of literature or multiple sources for learning Learning and then What we do so far so we why we actually just to wrap it out why we use MOOCs First to expose students to more online learning experience and secondly to help part-time students meeting the course learning outcome How we do it we use as I said the Coursera Courses Um into years This year is the third year we use this approach At first we started to use it in a way that student can, um Choose their own, um Course on Coursera connected to the, um, discrete mathematics or graph theory But of course teacher should approve the the choice Um then because of some of some difficulties we, uh, change a little bit in the academic year to 2015-16 in a way that we Uh, pre-selected a dozen 12, I think it was the number it was 12 Coursera Courses and then students, um, choose which course to to cover up um And I think it was, uh, better the second year and this is the this year is the third year we use this approach What also the students are, um Supposed to do it is to to write learning diary And not just diary how they are Learning and what they learn but also to answer Eight questions you can see the questions on the slide And the details you can find in the article that was, uh, presented on Research workshop in Oldenburg and it's available online. So you can check on details These eight questions, uh We we post in order to capture students experience and To give us also opportunity to have some kind of a follow-up qualitative analysis of the Our our work and what we can what we can change so, um These are Three research questions we ask Ask ourselves So the first one can use of MOOCs help in giving students positive learning experience in work virtual environment And help part-time students in achieving particular learning outcomes So we are very much oriented to achieving learning outcomes Then second how to align course learning outcomes and student workload with use of MOOCs in a specific course so to do it in a Way to ensure that the learning outcomes can be achieved And the third one What are the main challenges challenges for students in using MOOCs? Now I I noted here that it's um Antonia was supposed to follow this but now I'm going to our Arrest so of course we look at the literature and you can find in our um our paper already, uh, I think a really good literature review on how Uh, MOOCs are used in different courses not to recognize the whole MOOC on a program level but to use um in a innovative way MOOCs in courses to substitute or to develop certain certain skills for students So this is a quick overview of quantitative analysis how successful students are that choose MOOCs in comparison to those who work on projects You can see that in the first academic year Here we have Yeah, it's here So you can see here that the first year we have 107 enrolled students and 28 female students because this is a study of informatics We are predominantly we have predominantly male students Even though we are trying a lot to attract more female students Then nine Student choose MOOCs and other students the rest of students work on project related and then The second academic year that were 22 students that were choosing MOOC MOOCs and I think it's a good development And here you can see what are the percentage of students Each year, but also what are the average final grade of students who completed a MOOC Here in comparison with those who completed project work and we can see that on average these These achievements are rather similar We think that is Actually good results that it seems that we have Planet In a in a feasible way and give our students opportunity to have some alternatives, but not to jeopardize the results and then Finally, you can see here the average evaluation of MOOCs related tasks by teachers But more important I think development and analysis is qualitative Because we tried to answer questions and specially research questions we I read it So first of all connection between MOOCs and the course so students commented how the what they learned Is connected to the course And even though most of them are not very familiar with the concepts of learning outcomes They can recognize similarities, but also they They can recognize what are opportunities for them to deepen their knowledge or to work in different learning environments they also These are the comments from the learning Diary so you can see here that some of them said that I was skeptical because of the Language barrier or I like this bail learning because in addition to learning itself I had a chance to practice my English skills And to think about this topic in English Or you can see some more comments here experience with using MOOCs I want students Said as I was going through the course I selected I have also browsed through the platform and detected several other courses. I plan to take so we think that also some kind of advertising learning or a lifelong learning for our students Then the entire experience is very positive This is the first time but definitely not the last time for me to to use these open educational resources Some of them also said that it would be good to have a specific course as a task rather than having Being given the option to choose any course. That was the reason why we when we opted for the second year to pre-select courses There are also some other Some other comments you can read it because this Paper but also the presentation will be available And I'm just going to yeah, it's also very important because we ask About time they required to successfully complete the MOOC and I think it was crucial because Since we incorporated the MOOC into our traditionally Traditional course it was very important to adjust this Hours to complete the the course with what we expected from the students that Other participated in face-to-face activities and these answers answers also were positive Also, if you look at the challenging the challenges First is English language, but it was positive and negative as well. You can read it in in comments, but also there are several comments on How students should have some kind of a metacognitive skills to learn to know how to learn and what kind of a How to sort out all these experiences and tasks and finally if you look at the results so We conclude that That Fine-tuning with learning outcomes assessment method and students workload was absolutely necessary Then the student a student's prior knowledge and possible language barriers to be has to be taken have to be taken into consideration Then then intended learning outcomes were not always recognized by students, but Uh, we have to work a little bit more on explaining explaining to our students what's going on Then the main challenges for students were language barrier then importance of previous knowledge especially in mathematics and programming Then a more frequent knowledge and skill assessment and also self motivation and completing tasks in time was crucial for them So this model is a learning based model And what we can say that this MOOC implementations Was successful alternative to project work and we are going to keep it and follow up what What are student experiences and also try to upgrade it? Yes, yes Thank you very much You also blazenka this was Very interesting and my understanding shows that if properly integrated and I mean in in classical in traditional courses MOOCs can have absolutely Definitely the impact like andrea was saying I mean opening up the mind of students and you know teaching transversal skills and including including language of course Which becomes very important I picked up a question by Pedro Who asks how many students and choosing MOOCs were part time students more or less All of all of part time students actually were choosing MOOCs So we strongly recommend to those students to choose MOOCs and the first year, uh, let's say probably I think that two or three students Uh, part time students didn't choose MOOCs all of them Actually choose choose MOOCs and um in the second year all of part time students Choose MOOCs another question by Alan Is additional time spent on creating MOOC managed within costs of course? So we use we use MOOCs that uh that are available uh on Coursera platform, we just pre-selected these MOOCs and um Approach to our students and ask them to uh look at them and choose So the MOOC that is more much more in line with um Their interests, but it should be connected to the content and learning outcomes of the of the course And what is also important? That we tried to and it was not always easy I had to put MOOC into the time frame of the course This great mathematics course that we that we have so in the winter semester So it was also one of these problems, but as I said, we didn't create it, but we just use Okay, thank you. Andrea is asking if this student has finished her phd and this research is published Dude, um, Antonia, she's she's working on her phd and uh, she's working in the scope of the pro project It is you can see it here at the sub uh in the footer here So it was a project so-called high decision project that was supported by creation science foundation and As I said, she's not finished the phd, but the this work is available online in Proceeding that was published as a follow-up of the Research and Eden research workshop in Oldenburg We are we are going to also look at the data from this year and Upgrade the article, but right now I suggest I mean you have much more details in the paper. I suggest you read it. It's pretty Very well done. Last question by Pedro. Did you compare the final grades between students using MOOCs and using projects? That's what what we have here and you can see on one of these lines. Let me just find it that we You can see here average final grade of students who completed MOOC And this is the average final grade of students who completed the project work. You can see here that the first year It was the students who completed the MOOC has Lower final grade than those Who completed the project work, but the next year it was a bit Higher, but so the second year we as I said we upgraded a little bit our approach Preselected courses give much more Explanation to our students and if you look at the final final grade that are very similar Of course, we these are the small numbers that was just 22 students who choose MOOCs and 80 out of 88 but still Okay, well, thank you very much again. I think we should now move to the meso level in fact My question for you. I keep it for the end because it has to do with the way The your institution has reacted to this because if I must and well this was an initiative by by The micro level so by some professors and research. So don't answer now. Let's see first What Lisa has to tell us about strategies for for adopting openness, let's say and So at the moment at this moment, uh, yes, I'm reading here. We are having this Contribution by Lisa Marie Blanske hidden vice president And program director at the University of Oldenburger. So we are now moving to the level of The institution. So how are institutions dealing with the issue of openness? Even with strategies with vision with missions, but you will tell us more So the floor is yours. I think we are coping quite well with the delay and we still have 20 participants coming and going So I'm quite satisfied. So please please go ahead Thank you, Fabio I'm going to talk to you a little bit today about open educational resources and some research that I did last year on Strategies and developing an OER strategy But first I want to start out with why strategy is important This is a comment that was made in a commonwealth of of learning publication Last year regarding the role of distance education institutions By ashwa kanva who is the col president and ceo And what she talks about in this in this statement is basically that Distance learning institutions are not taking a strong leadership role In the OER movement and in developing MOOCs And that we need to take a much stronger role in Defining how we strategize And to really be stronger leaders within the open educational resource movement And what I'd like to present to you today are three case studies that I did looking at Three institutions three distance learning institutions afabasca university in canada The open university uk In the united kingdom and the last one university of maryland in the united states So the first the oh gosh, you probably can't read these very well. Can you the first The first Institution that I looked at with afabasca university, which is the home of commonwealth of learning and also the nesco chair of the oer And within their mission afabasca has openness as part of their mission and that's removing barriers To restrict access and and basically giving Giving education to learners worldwide now the way that they've they've done this is um, they've I'm having trouble reading my own slides too. Um, I will put up a better version of this later so that you can read this Their goal in adopting an oer strategy was to lower costs and to improve delivery across the And they did this by using teams of learning designers subject matter experts and visual designers And champions within the organization now. They have a real ad hoc strategy There's no official strategy that was defined by the institution In in determining how they would adopt oer's but they did um, but they did But but leadership within the institution was very supportive of the movement and has been very supportive of the movement Even though there is no official strategy on how they will proceed Now some of the results that came out of Adopting oer within the institution. Uh, there were an increased number of oer that were being used There was increased awareness about oer And there was more use of open access Publishing within the institution using open library and in the au press They also found that the faculty was collaborating more not just within the institution But also with others outside of the institution as they began to explore oer Another goal of athabasca was to reduce their dependency on commercial publishing publishers, which was Also a benefit that emerged from using oer at the institution I apologize for these slides. I don't know the version that I had had You were able to read the slide. So I'm I apologize for that Now the next university that I looked at was the University of Maryland University College Which was the winner of the open educational consortium 2015 presidents award for its work on oer And the mission of the University of Maryland is to improve the lives of adult learners And they have some specific core values which relate to openness Now they had a different reason for proceeding and and you know realizing an oer strategy Which was really they wanted to reduce the textbook cost For students and so there's over 84,000 students at the university and they wanted to really Reduce that that that cost that was uh, you know that that students had to deal with in the United States is hugely It's a huge cost done some estimated at 25 20 26 percent of of your average education is just with textbook cost And so what they did was they decided to move all of their Move all of their textbooks and to use oer Now they had a different definition of openness as other institutes as for example Athabasca did In the sense that oer was for them They didn't necessarily fall underneath David Wiley's five Rs It was it's really about making it accessible online So students would be able to access it even if it were available for example through the library So they're still using publishers That and using library facilities now what they did In realizing their oer strategy Was they also created teams? Where they had instructional designers and library personnel who worked together with faculty The oer movement was strongly supported by management and pushed by management And then together they were able to move all of their Basically transition all of their courses Into using oer's now the results of that 700 plus courses have transitioned to oer. It's even more since this Since this since I did this research because the graduate school has also moved to oer And they've saved over 10 million u.s. Dollars In textbook cost savings for students And this is this is tremendous. This is tremendous benefit has also Given them a competitive advantage within the field Because they are able to say will reduce the cost of your education By because you won't have to buy textbooks Another benefit that emerged From the shift to oer and which has also been found within the literature Is that there was a more learner-centered curriculum What happened was as the instructors began to move to oer They found that that what they had to do was really they couldn't just grab a book from somewhere and use it For the courses what they had to do was really think about You know, what do our students want to learn? What kind of outcomes do I want to achieve? And then what kind of Text can I use what's available out there to help support to realize those those outcomes? So that was the second example Now the third example was the o u uk and I I'm particularly like this example Because they used because they really approached it from a from a from a holistic perspective And their goal within with their oer strategy, which was funded by the Hewlett-Packard Organization was to expand their market outreach and to increase oer production And they really want they thought as an opportunity for them to really be disruptive in terms of innovation And just like the other examples that I talked about today. They they worked with teams In in looking at where can we add value when where can we do this across the value chain of education? They didn't just look at you know, how can we do this from a pedagogical perspective? How can we do this from a content or technological perspective? I think they really used those dimensions that Andrea talked about in her presentation To look at you know, how can we realize oer within within our organization? Well the results of of their Particularly strategy and they do have a strategy and it's and it's up on the web with an with their oer policy They had well, they had a defined policy and how how oer were going to be positioned within the institution They've converted 1000 informal learners to actual paying students Within the university and they've also found that there was a there was a greater brand impact and more income as a result of using oer You know, so those were some of the results Benefits the number of benefits were were identified by the interviewee that that I spoke with They were able to increase access There was lots of reuse of of the different oer Within the organization They also came up with some new business models and new partnerships as a result and saw also more opportunities For collaboration outside of the organization and also for research What were some of the similarities um across the institutions? Well, I also meant context was was really key Because each of the institutions approached oer and using oer for different reasons the athabasca They were driven more by having the chair within athabasca. They wanted to get away from They wanted to get away from publishers publishers The textbook publishers and and you know, you and you see wanted to save money for students Whereas I think the oh you was more looking at, you know, how can we really add value across the the value chain? but all But but within their strategies There were three elements that were very important Which they defined within their context. Now the first was of course their mission what they wanted to achieve as an institution So their strategy had for oer needed to be aligned with that mission Their strategy needed to be sustainable and it also needed to be flexible and that that fits Well within context because they wanted to have a content They wanted to have that flexibility so that they could move within their context and finally Value added they needed to show, you know, what's the value? Where's the benefit? Whether it be, you know for our students For our for our instructors for the organization as a whole So those were all things that were included as part of the strategy Now when I was looking at this I thought it was interesting to also think about the value chain of higher education and I think Many of these things are also well aligned with what Andrea talked about in terms of the dimensions Because we're looking at oer from a from a larger perspective besides just, you know, the silo of Teaching and learning You're looking at the inbound logistics for example the oh you example was it was a really good one Of how they looked at inbound logistics. They looked at the operations Outbound logistics marketing and sales services. Where is the value added for oer for all of those different situations for all of those cases? So that was really What what what came out of that research? Was looking at, you know, what are some of the best practices? Um Things that all of the interviews views said we need to have champions within the organization We need to have people that are going to really push Push oer within the institution and make make, you know, really big awareness of campaigns about oer Which is, you know, the next point making sure that people are aware of what is oer What is the goal? Does it play within our organization? Providing faculty incentives was another best practice and this isn't necessarily money What also came up within The discussions was Faculty will also have incentive by give by being given opportunities to conduct research and to collaborate with others within or outside of the institution to attend different academic Conferences to present the results of the work that they've done The other thing that the institutions Each did within their strategies is they use their institutional strengths. They looked at, you know, where are we strongest? What can we do to really position our strengths and position ourselves within the market? Another best practice that they used with design teams and that was, you know, not having Just one person be responsible For, you know, realizing oer but to have teams of people working together to realize oer Another best practice focusing on student centered learning How is the best way that we can provide? oer in In such a way that we're focused on what do our students Need and what kind of outcomes are we trying to realize and finally mission and strategy were very key And that was that the oer strategy aligned well with the mission of the institution So That's that's basically it in a nutshell and i'm sorry for really so Thank you very much time was perfect And I I personally could read also those sentences in black over dark Background, so that's quite good Um, I see a couple of questions here By alan Did you move find it easy to find the appropriate oer instead of textbooks? Um, it's been challenging. Um, I I will have to say that some some of the topics it was easier to find Um, to find oer Some courses were already using oer in terms of, you know, making Gathering knowledge sources from the internet But I would say in general Yeah, I mean it was it was challenging. Let's let's just put it that way alan What what they did have was the library did a first search and they went through. Oh gosh. I think we had Excel spreadsheets that were, you know, 30 40 pages long that would identify potential oer So it gave instructors an opportunity to look through that that list and then identify it and and add to it in terms of Oer that they could use so they really use the library as a resource in that case Okay, I see andrea is typing a question Well, no, it it was an answer by forever. So I had a question myself. You said that Atabaska More than a trans than an official strategy as a sort of a transversal transversal support attitude that is also what Rory McGregor was telling me in fact they I mean this on one side is pretty good because it leads more flexibility for For the people within the institution. You think, you know, blazanka and antonia for example No, they don't have to do exactly what the university is telling them to do that might be a bit problematic But on the other side, this is Not maybe obliging the whole institution to change So I don't know if you if you can comment on this and at the same time on the importance of the team Work you mentioned a few times the declaration of teams And I'm telling this because I did a similar case study and I will share it with you later on University of South Africa on unisa Which had the very famous I talked to the responsible person there And the problem there was the sustainability of the strategy itself Because it was practically linked to a couple of persons decision maker and the manager When these two persons for whatever reason had to you know, slow down change of Start a phd, whatever The strategy slowed down also not because of a change in the political Willingness of the institution. That's what I heard but just because of this the practicalities of having a few people involved Whilst maybe the teams the creation of design teams could be also maybe management teams could be a solution What do you think? Okay Well, the first question that you asked was about at the basque university and I do want to add that Again context plays a really important role here because with within canada It they have really really loose copyright laws So you can use quite a bit of what's already out there without having to worry about the copyright issues So there's been something of a challenge really getting faculty to agree to using OER because they're kind of like well, I can already use what's already out there. So why should I You know, why should I create more OER because that's what they're trying to do They just want basically I want to have packaged courses that are given to them Whereas that's not the case in the United States. If you look at the UMBC example So I think that in in that particular case Your strategy or how you approach OER really has to align with With, you know, your context and what and and really what the the context is that your institution is is trying to To realize OER Your other question about teams This also like I mentioned also came up quite often within the interviews because each of them did use teams and teams are important Not just from the perspective of creating the OERs, but as you were mentioning making aware of, you know, promoting OER Making others aware of OER within the organization Champions were really important within each of the organizations that I spoke with because They needed to You needed to have champions because they are the ones that are going to push OER within the organization But then you also need the leadership support to promote and support champions because as you mentioned Champions, I mean they burn out. I mean if they are, you know being given this responsibility Very quickly it will become overwhelming And so there needs to be kind of a ripple effect within the institution Where the champions are promoting awareness, but supporting the development of new champions to take their places So it's it's really it's an ongoing. I mean any any time there's change within the organization. You're going to need You know teams of people you're going to need leadership and management support and you're going to need your champions Okay, thank you Last question by Andrea On the OU UK. How does the future learn featuring to this OER strategy? Future learn is separate from open learn now. I talked to the guys at open learn and and not we Future learn gets a lot of press I think for the work that it does in terms of MOOCs What open learn is trying to do is it's trying to Integrate all of OER not just the MOOC into creating environments where They're channeling students From informal learners into becoming formal learners and they're using OER in order to do that I could go into tons of detail about this and I did publish for Eden I put something in about what the OU UK is is doing and I can send you more information if you'd like Andrea Thank you. That was in fact a tricky question. Thank you for coming out So we have 20 minutes more. Thank you very much again, Lisa. We should now move to Alan Tate Well, I think most of us know Alan from his trajectory Here is under the open university UK. I think he's a professor there for many years and I don't know the multiple heads of Alan I won't go in detail about the multiple heads of Alan, but I think he's a Perfect speaker For the to do to discuss the macro level the policy level not being a policymaker himself I mean not being working in the ministry. In fact, the third level is the level of policy So the top-down level or policy In our understanding here means many things can be governmental policy can be local policy funding schemes any kind of stimulus that can come from above typically to change things Towards openness within an institution. So I think Alan has the perfect vision to discuss this from a point of view of a non Holy policy professional, I don't know how to say it But Alan the floor is yours and the screen also if you can appear. Thank you very much indeed Thank you very much indeed Fabio And good afternoon to colleagues across the network I want to reflect first of all By way of introduction Give you a little summary of what I wanted to say and then then try and give you some more detail We can use the term policy of course at institutional level But that's been dealt with very effectively by colleagues Including Lisa just before me So I'm going to reflect now on the macro level of policy that is to say primarily national or provincial level policies or indeed Intergovernmental organization policies such as the european union opening up education Which Andrea has already talked about or indeed unescos On sustainable development goals, which also talk about open education And just to give you my conclusions in advance so you can reflect on them What I'm going to suggest is that the Achievement of policy is firstly very important, but secondly very partial very limited It's been limited across the field of open education. So some parts of open education have quite well developed policies national certainly um At some parts not at all But it's also limited in depth that is it's limited in what it actually can achieve In terms of law Um, so I'm going to take a rather a critical perspective of where we've got to on policy But at the same time I want want to emphasize that I believe policy is The level which we all want to be working towards so actually those of us who are working Without education in opinion or its variety in projects And in institutions should be looking to how we can get this incorporated into policy at national or regional or provincial level So let's just reflect for a second what we mean by the word policy It's got a number of Levels of meaning the first of all it can mean a sort of state a statement of intent what we propose to do And that can lead to a course of action. So these are the things we're going to do to deliver that intent Policy is usually delivered by strategy and we heard colleagues talking already today about strategies Through some sort of operational plan And it's supported by funding But the difference I think with policy at macro level Is that this is then implemented through regulation or protocol or it's incorporated into law It's in somehow got some official standing. So it becomes In a sense a mandatory set of actions When it becomes policy at national or international level, it's incorporated into law Now why is this important? And I think it's important for reasons which Lisa was beginning to Discuss which is that the project level of work which has been the predominant level of work for open education Up till now Is very fragile. It's fragile because Projects depend on grants. They come into existence. They give out of existence Projects depend on people for limited periods. They come and work on their projects and they disappear and so Project level work is an important stage in innovation But if it doesn't move into policy, it leaves An issue it leaves a set of practices like open education very vulnerable to being time limited and to not becoming sustainable So I think policy is a crucial part of open education practices becoming sustainable That's why I'm concerned that I think it is To be critical and only partially Um successful at policy level so far So just to continue my introduction briefly um projects Of course can move towards policy through micro meso and macro level That's one way in which policy is created. It starts with projects and then moves upwards or um It can move the other way so we can see have something brought into law Which is then implemented must be implemented At the meso and micro level or there can be and I think this is the best way It can develop into a sort of synergistic relationships where we have policies and projects Being innovative being mutually supportive But all of this of course if we're talking about policy, we're talking about a political process But I think we have to accept that we need to move more towards a political process to get policy adopted at national and international level So um There's a wide field here when we talk about open education and I think much of this has been covered We're talking about open education and we're talking about open practices. So actually doing things We've got open education publishing Which is very influential um has been for a number of years now Has had real impact where we've seen the cost of academic publishing lowered Of course eden runs an open access journal open You rattle there are other open access journals in our field too very importantly So I think open education publishing has achieved real status and it's embedded in projects mostly at um Institutional level, um, although, um, I would say that um in terms of research management of research Quality in the uk We have seen at governmental level policies which Demand that research which is funded by public funds Must be made available through open access publishing. So we have seen open publishing reinforced by governmental policy I'm very sensible is too Um open textbooks, um, uh, Lisa has covered. I think there are some other examples, which I will mention around the ways in which this has been Moved into policy open education resources. I think I must say this is one of the weaker areas where we are limited so far Discussion I may learn myself from discussion that that I don't have a full view of this But I think open education resources have been limited Uh to project-based work. I'm not delivered into um Policy mooks may be something critical To say there but underlying all of this if you open education has been the digital revolution over the last 20 years Both as an enabler to make open education practices Possible and now driving for change and the last thing I want to cover is this, um Paradox that while we have an increasingly commoditized society we have in open education An anti commoditization movement and I think for governments. This is very difficult because governments for the most part adopt Um policies which support the commoditization of products But find themselves challenged by this anti commoditization ideology which they find difficult to accept and to put into policy So open publishing And I think we have seen a movement here from projects Starting um as long as 15 or 20 years ago into through collaboration into policy So as I've mentioned the research councils in the uk Now policy in place which demands the terminology you hear golden green roofs that is that um Authors and institutions and journals must commit to some level or other of open access publishing either immediately Or or after a period of one year And it is now a commitment for research that is publicly funded as I say that it must become in due course um publicly available and this seems to me to be Something which began as a radical idea and certainly the publishers were very unhappy about it to becoming a common-sense notion That um the old model where academics gave their publications free to private Publishers and then universities paid and sometimes paid a great deal To buy that content back was was not a good model at all was not a fair model at all um We have um in open archives Again, some of these held at national level um A reflection in policy driven by policy um that um archives must become open For public research and that's important also for citizen science as well as for professional academic science That's citizens can now access archives In order to interrogate them and to to to do their own research We have open access journals. We know them in our field These have been come incorporated Into policy at institutional level and also um by professional associations So I think we can be reasonably satisfied on the open publishing side that we have much more than projects We have open publishing reflected at policy level Open textbooks. I think there are other colleagues here who are more expert in this than me But I will mention one example a provincial level in canada Where the province Has said so that is a form of regional government an important form of regional government in canada that they do not want to pay Or commercially produced textbooks at secondary post-secondary level That they are seeking to move their post-secondary institutions to using um uh open textbooks open education resources instead in just the same way that these are described Happening at institutional level at um. You see This is I think a minority Practice so far. There are relatively few governmental policies here in open textbooks but I think bridger columbia provides at least one important example of Open access work becoming more than a project and it may be that colleagues in the network today can provide Other examples quote in textbooks being worked are being supported at policy level too Open education resources, which perhaps has had the most rhetoric over the last 10 years And there's a huge number of open education resources. In fact, I think the volume of open education resources has itself become problematic um But I would say critically that open education resources has not been supported at policy level nationally or internationally yet. It remains at the level of um Rhetoric positive progressive good rhetoric, but has not been incorporated at policy level Things like open learn which Lisa has mentioned has something over five million visitors a year This is the Open education we are run from the from the university. So enormous um numbers of visitors um Reflected in institutional policy, but if funding for example changed radically for the open university because of uh national funding challenges Something like open learn might and suffer and become vulnerable. So I would say with OERs innovative projects supported by progressive rhetoric have actually so far run ahead of outcomes and that they're not supported adequately by national or international policy um I'm Will be interested to hear if there is a different perspective on that So I think OER is somewhere where we ought as actors in the field to seek to get the use of OER more adequately reflected in national and international policy Again mooks, um well discussed already today. Um, I won't um Talk about these more here, but I think still significantly at the level of projects and innovation And very limited incorporation Into national policy. So in other words, I don't see national governments Saying to universities, you will use mooks in order to reduce costs I see universities still experimenting with mooks with all the Volatility and the fragility that that level of innovation important though it is Risks when mooks are not adopted into policies at national level And so um in conclusion, um, I'd also say that um, we have this very fascinating dimension of open education across that range of dimensions of open education practices Where what has become in some fields very much a commoditized set of practices Is being pushed back as a common as a place of common ownership common use and open access access I think frankly the way in which research used to be published was a scandal um, and the cost of higher education in north america and in england Uh, again forms part of this anti commoditization um pushback policy wise And in some ways openness and access is inherent in the potential of the web Revolution, but I think it's very difficult to put anti commoditization international policy because of course most of us work and live in Countries where commoditization has been a major economic and social and trend over 500 or more years And so I think we can expect as we seek to try and move open education international policy we can expect A rough ride a rocky ride and we can expect challenges ourselves For example publishers are influential major actors in the business world Some aspects of the open access movement Very anti pathetic to what publishers want challenges their business model And I think we can find the anti commoditization dimension of open education practices challenging to put international policy level so um Just to finish I think it however it remains important whatever the difficulties that we seek To move projects into policy level projects are vulnerable to short-term financing and vulnerable to exhaustion by both But financially and by people um policy drives and confirms sustainability So if we want to make open education in all its variety sustainable, it seems to be essential uh that we embody it in policy at national and international level Um, EU and UNESCO both have important policy dimensions in this field But i'm not sure that they are adequate to provide the sustainability at national level that we need I think both UNESCO and perhaps EU And provide policy, but it can be ignored by national Governments both in the EU because education is not part of the the the aki community care remains the national level Responsibility and because of UNESCO of course UNESCO works as an advisory or some mandatory level We have important institutional policies policy national level supported by funding Remains lacking with the possible exception of the publication of research Within some countries at least including the UK. So I think until we move more into the political dimension Incorporating our policy our our Projects our innovations into policy level we risk exhaustion by innovators And we risk Phenotropic foundations like the Hewlett foundation which Lisa mentioned which has been so supportive of education They may move on to the next new thing. We may find open education Thank you very much Alan in fact for this And the good thing well the good thing is that despite we have we are almost over with our time Part of the discussion I wanted to have live went on on the chat So I don't know if you can if you want to browse the chat while while I briefly comment on that I think the The main point in the chat has to do with the The process The bottom up process from project To to strategy through an evaluation and then and then to policy through another evaluation cycle together with the top down Or at the same time with the top down Approach that typically is the one that policy follows. So this dichotomy is Always present I would say and among the comments we had one Saying that we should have policy makers with us all the time I don't know if this would be good, especially on the day of the election of donald trump and and the The other one is that leadership and this is I think a pretty important comment institutional leadership is key because in fact The meso level is there in in the middle and typically institutional leaders are able to Talk to policy makers or to reach somehow maybe through association the the policy level So basically I would like to to get your view on this cycle from project That is project evaluation strategy evaluation policy and back Do you think do you see this as a researcher's dream or as something that Maybe somehow has been working has worked or could be thought for the future Well, it's it's it's too. In fact, it's a primarily to you and then to the other speakers if Andrea blasenke lisa if you can come up with your with your video for the final I would say five minutes Discussion five to ten minutes discussion. Even if you're a bit out of time I invite you to turn on your camera and to to let us have your your view on this cycle Let's say Principal issues which are pretty important. So, how do you see I would like to start with Alan? How do you see this this process? From the project to the policy and back sort of and the importance of leadership at all levels Well, I I I think it's this is a hugely important area. So First of all, I think the research dimension is enormously helpful Andrea mentioned that she she and her team are going to begin some research in this area but I'd also say to Educationalists who are perhaps less familiar and less comfortable In acting in political spheres that it is naive of us if we want to Have open education becomes a sustainable set of any other view I'm especially interested in blazinka's view because you represent them in here the micro level So my question before how did your your university reacted to what you have been doing? Actually, I am from the 2010 to 2014 advice rectory those are with 80,000 students. So I can compare these two positions Um, just for If I look at my school right now where I'm a professor, I can say that we are We have a policy and strategy to support this kind of Especially blended learning approach and using open online resources and each course do have this Course in learning management system and so on so so it's quite Let's say a comfortable position for a professor and research But looking at this meso level in the university level It is not so favorable because even though we have strategy that is That was adopted 2014 Right now we don't have any financial support or any recognition for those who are working on in developing or some kind of innovation in a arena of using learning or Open educational resources So I have this let's say on university level. We have this gap between the strategy and what's written and adopted and what we are acting what's actually the reality and Also what I mentioned before in my comment. It's very important to have this continuity So if we have a strategy and if in the meantime something is changing in leadership or in rector presidents and so on That we can we can follow up the strategy that was adopted at one time or to change the strategy otherwise What Lisa mentioned before we can have really nice papers on the shelves, but if we don't have funding or Real action in place that it can be it is just It is it's not very comfortable position especially for for students who are counting what what they can read but Finally what they get it is not Not according to the to the strategy, but something that is Let's say lower level of course Thank you very much Andrea you want to say something Yeah, I I would like to to make a comment if I may I like your perspective Alan of dealing with open education This more global way as I I presented initially but in terms of policy We normally see more action or let's even say activism in relation of having OER policies no perhaps because It's a very popular issue. It's I don't know it relates to copyright etc So there's a lot of activism in that area and UNESCO seems to be focusing On the open open educational resources part of open education in in mind view But I think that perhaps we could Try and look look at it more globally and even think amongst ourselves What other policies could we be thinking at a more high level in terms of the other dimensions as well? I agree with you that there is a lack of policies This is something that's being seen in our research today that Fabio and he seemed participating But also in terms of the commission. It's not only difficult to be more precise I'm just putting my own perspective But I also think there is a lack of evaluation of the impact From all of what the commission is already doing for example, if you think in terms of the Erasmus program There is so many so much money invested in that And all the content all produced by the Erasmus plus program should be made available as an open licensed resource And I I personally don't know if there ever has been an evaluation of the impact of this whole huge program Which involves so much money Which is some sort of to me an indirect policy, you know So I think that when we discuss policies also we we should think about what types of policies that we're talking about institutional national And cross-border which is the case of the you although to me I see it as an indirect policy embedded into the Erasmus program And indeed we need to discuss it further much further Thank you very much Lisa any comment. I see you were you were mentioning that this top down bottom up dynamic is present in your case studies Can you elaborate? Yeah, in all of the case studies that I looked at there was you know, these these Movements sometimes started at the top other times they started, you know with pockets of innovation But in in all of the cases They were supported by management. So you had the top down support And then you also had, you know faculty and and members of the institution that were involved I'd like to say something about the policy Comments that have been made so far. I I couldn't agree more about the need for policy But I think also, uh, you know just taking for example, uh, bologna I mean how bologna has been implemented and realized within the eu I think partially You know, we get these policies and it's really up to institutional leadership To determine how are we going to realize these and how are we going to make them sustainable? within our organizations and a lot of times we have to sit back and we have to look at it from a From a holistic perspective from, you know, the From the bottom and from the top and involve all of the key stakeholders in order to come up with solutions that will make these Make our strategies sustainable and to realize policies Thank you very much. I see It can well, yeah I mean the adoption of bologna. I think is a good example on how policy can be Interpreted I would say by different not only by different countries, but by different institutions within the same country So absolutely and I like very much the the concept of indirect policy or the way I call them are incentives like in the rosmos plus as far as I know I was reading the the interim evaluation report of the first report from the rosmos plus and that dimension was not As far as I remember analyzed in depth Also, because you know, it's one thing is to put an open license one thing is to make sure that all these results are findable and People know they are there that's the main the main issue especially with european project as as we all know Uh, we have a comment by blazinga who would like to stress the evaluation Of policy, but also to evaluate initiative via action research, which is absolutely fundamental, I mean it's In an ideal world, I would say The actual research should inspire policy. I mean this would be the the bottom up movement Of course, we don't want teachers or or actors to do the national policy, but that should be a source of inspiration now I don't know how much this How much this works and then christina She is promoting the Transforming universities for the digital ages digital age policies business models and resources webinar Which is starting about which is about to start in fact In another conference room. So if you still have some energy to discuss Universities in the digital age, this is happening very soon pretty important in fact Why is they masking for for comments? I think I'm not I don't think it's We are in the position to to to draw conclusions. Otherwise, it would be a bit over ambitious. I think what we what we can What we can state is that they in my understanding at least the three levels should stay there as As approaches or the micro is very important the maze. Of course the strategy is fundamental and the policy is there what we are finding is that sometimes There is there are bilateral communication between these two between two of these levels which works as in the case of Lasenka in other cases, you have you know an an open or an open to innovator policy maker within a university that can facilitate the growing of some innovative practices and open practices and in some cases you have as we are seeing in the study with with jrc some very isolated cases where National policies are inspired by associations. For example of universities of directors and so on. So you have some cases some I would say rather unfortunately isolated cases where these bilateral elevators work between policy and strategy and between strategy and And micro so the daily work I think the challenge would be how to make this The norm instead of the exception that this is this would be my last question for you If you have one bright idea one sentence on what should The commission national government and institutional leaders to to foster this to make this happen simply more, you know Good cases exist And the strategies presented by Lisa Marie show that when you have a clear vision and you have the time and Patience to implement it. It works Any last any flesh comment on how this could Become more the norm than the exception And what I what I put into my comment is that What is really important to open communication between Between these three levels because if you just have now we have it Now we see how it is is when we have examples and we have a micro meso or At the highest level, but usually we have conferences just for practitioners researchers than People that are running universities and then the policy level people and very rarely we can find it at one place at one time or projects that actually incorporated actions for for all three levels and and I think that actually the role of Eden is really important and This kind of a webinars or other discussions or but it's not discussion just discussion, but also project that Take into account all three levels Thank you very much Alan, do you have a view on this? Do you have a the ultimate solution? I don't think I have the ultimate Answer to that or indeed to anything else for you. I've been totally wrong about This morning's events in the USA. So I think I'll stay quiet for a little while But but um, what I suppose what I what I would say is that I think um educationalists are happier working at project level And I think it's that we have to work to change our own practice To look at the policy dimensions of what we do and then to work together at a broader than project level to ensure that Good that comes out of the whole range of projects Going clockwise The president with an even position on this so Andrea, do you have a flesh Idea or a flesh wish for us No, I just I just want to say that I I fully agree with with Alan in terms of uh Thinking of this bottleneck approach for policy making because um, eba for example asked me um Do you know of any universities that are using the framework you presented? Etc. And I say well, there may be but if they don't tell us We won't know uh, likewise These projects normally run with human or national money. They are always so inspiring and and fantastic in in Gathering together experiences and data and I think this all needs to be very well communicated to policy makers Because they need to know that the money they push towards a certain action actually Bring something in return and and and they need to know it clearly and very often Um, this is not done at least not as much as the like to see happening For example, the like to see an overview of all the EU funded projects and and you know lessons learned from this over I don't know two or three years time. It's very difficult in terms of all we are more etc It's very difficult to gather this information to start with But in terms of an association to think about it, I think it could be something very interesting Okay, to close Lisa Eden was mentioned a few times and I think it's part of the inner mission of Eden to to facilitate this communication between different levels and these mappings So I don't want to to extract from you any promise for future work of Eden But I think this is a confirmation of the commitment is clearly there, no Yeah, I think confirmation of the commitment confirmation of the role that Eden has within within Europe And not just within Europe, but also internationally as being Really a platform for people to To come together to to communicate and discuss the issues that we've discussed today at all different levels And you know work together to find solutions. So yeah, that's my plug for Eden Okay. Well, thank you very much. I think we closed properly And with a bit of delay, but it didn't prevent us from having most of the participants still there So thank you very much for there's almost two hours of webinar, which is a pretty Normally is too much for a webinar, but we kept I think up the other interesting discussion and the The thing the webinar has been recorded. So participants will receive A link with that I'm asking you all to treat it as much as possible so that others can enjoy this And I would like to thank the participants first and then our four presenters for your contribution And see you tomorrow and on Friday for the two remaining Webinars of this European distance learning. Thank you very much Thank you. Thank you, Fabio