 Finance Minister replies to padding allegation regards it as senseless as 1.7 trillion Naira is inserted into MDA's budgets. And Nigeria is operating an illegitimate constitution, says former president of the Nigerian Bar Association, Olisa Awakoba. This is Plus Politics, I'm Mary Anacol. The Minister of Finance, budgeted to national planning Zaynab Ahmad on Tuesday said allegations of budget padding are projects and allocations in the 2023 Appropriation Bill made no sense. She stated that she said this during her presentation before the House of Representatives Committee on Appropriations, the Minister for Humanitarian Affairs, Disaster Management and Social Development, Sadia Farooq had while appearing before the Senate Committee on Special Duties for Budget Defense blamed the Finance Ministry for arding 206 billion Naira to the ministry's budget. Farooq had claimed that the ministry requested some projects for the Northeast Development Commission and the National Social Safety Net Project in the 2022 budget, which were not released, but were surprised to see an inflated amount in the 2023 budget of the ministry. Consequently, the House and Vice of the Finance Minister to respond to six queries concerning budgets of various ministries, departments and agencies. Joining us to discuss this is Immanuel Umaran, he's a legal practitioner, and Jidio Lugo, who is also a legal practitioner. Thank you so much, gentlemen, for joining us. Good evening. Good evening. Great. I'll start with you, Bryce, our logo. So it's a question of who's telling us the truth, or who's right and who's wrong. And this is not the first time in Nigeria where we've had issues of budget padding, allegations of insertion, of bloated amounts of budgets, or things that are put into the budget. But today, the Finance Minister has come out to say that this does not necessarily make sense, being that they, knowingly, put this into the budgets of the humanitarian ministry, and she's saying that there's no cost for a land. But do you, looking at all of the things that are played out over last week into this week, what do you stand on this particular matter? You know, it's quite interesting because in Yusufah, I actually reported that the National Investments Commission, Ministry of Depends, and Ministry of Managerial Affairs, and to such a management of social development, accused the Finance Ministry of inserting the projects in their budgets. And if you look at the processes of making budgets, you realize that there should have been enough time to verify what you are inserting. So it may be like trying to court corners here, but what happens is that there will be a lot of deniers at Yusufah. But these are government agencies, ministries, and departments accusing each other and denying allegations. And for some of us, it's not something new in the country when you talk about budget padding. And I must appreciate the concerns of national assembly members, saying that at a time like this in the country, when we have a very challenging economic situation, those who are expected by Section 4 of the Nigerian Contreras are mended to make laws for the peace, order, and good governance of Nigeria. And discovering that there are some of the ministries that are expected to understand our plight are trying to court corners. And then it is really disturbing. And if you look at Section 15, Subsection 5 of the Nigerian Contreras amended, it says that the state shall abolish corruption and abuse of office. So it's quite worrisome. While the country is crying about low revenue, while the country is crying about very high indebtedness, different kinds of hardship, there are some are trying to smuggle in some strange elements into our budget. And don't forget that that budget itself is arriving on the K leg. It's a deficit budget. So when you now overload it, it's disturbing. But let me just anchor my part of this discussion on the fact that this may also fizzle away on the platform of deniers, all of deniers we call them. But we are calling on the National Assembly to bury vigilance. And that is one of the responsibilities of the National Assembly to ensure that these budgetary provisions are well-dependent and they reflect transparency. And of course, they reflect the state of the nation currently. Let me come to you. It sounds more like the Humanitarian Affairs Minister was totally unaware about this insertion, because kept insisting that she knew nothing about how this money, this figure was inserted into their budget. And just to borrow from what Boris our local just said now, there was enough time between the time that these budgets were put together and the time that they had to do the presentation. Should there not be some form of liaison between these ministries, departments and agencies before the presentation were to happen, being that the finance ministry somewhat was in charge of that drawing up all of that budget? And if something had to be inserted into another ministry's budget, how come one person doesn't know? Do you smell a rat here? And this explanation that the finance minister has given us, should that suffice? Thank you. You see, we have seen this before. From 1999, we have seen these issues of budget padding. And unfortunately, it has come to stay with us like everything bad in Nigeria. The fact that the minister for finance is now coming to say it doesn't matter. It's unfortunate. It's unfortunate. The funds that they are trained all over the place, like my colleague said, we are in a dire strait in Nigeria. These funds do not belong to them. They belong to the federal republic of Nigeria. Every one of them. These are taxpayer funds. And what I've made down now, they are trying to shift the ball to push it here and there. And at the end of the day, everybody will forget about it. Like I said earlier, it's been happening. And it's also unfortunate that our security agencies who pursue young people in this country, who do all sorts to the poor people, do not look at these people at all. ICPC, I said they have stopped our 206 billion that were inserted in this budget and that it won't go. What have you done to the people? Who did this? And we've not seen one minister tried and convicted for this party. The only person that was tried, the trial took over 20 years, was the former senate president. And at the end of the day, it was said that he was removed because he was arrested and tried because they wanted him out of office. Now, why have we not been able to have one conviction? For almost 30 years now, we've not been able to have one conviction. And this is happening. Ministers leave office and become billionaires. So people who before 1999 could not buy tickets to fly from Lagos or from Kaduna could fly from Kaduna to Lagos. These are the same people that have become billionaires who are buying forms of political parties for 100 million. This is the fact, the country is bleeding. And until we do something about it, we are destroying our country. When you say until we do something about it, who's we and what exactly do you mean by that? We are the security agencies, the ESCC, the ICPC, the Nigerian police. They are there. They are doing nothing and unfortunately choose. Each of this group of people, these big men in IHOOS, have security people around them. They have DGSS, they have police, they have all sorts around them, guarding them and nobody's passing information. Let's talk about the projects that were made reference to by the Minister of Humanitarian Affairs and Disaster Management and Social Development. Now, Sadia Faruk had said that the Ministry of Finance requested some projects for the Northeast Development Commission and National Social Safety Net project in 2022's budget, which were not released on the land, it was not released. But then he was surprised to see an inflated amount of that money in the 2023 budget. So my question is, if these projects that were requested to be inserted were not questionable in any way, why were they not made plain and why was they not prior information before this was put in? Again, why inflates the amount without doing due process? I'm asking this because again, after maybe a few days, this would not no longer be making our headlines and it would obviously be gone with the wind. Why is there never a follow through of these issues? Because you started this conversation by saying that this is not new. So because it's not new and it's raising its ugly head again, should we let it go as we always let the other things go? It's not a matter of letting it go, for who we are tend to them. Like my brilliant colleague just mentioned now, we have law enforcement agencies, have you forgotten the probe of NDDC of your mic? We just have high people in top people in high places who want to launch this nation into the abysses of crisis. Let me run us through slightly the budgeting processes that we have. In preparing federal government budgets, all agencies using the guidelines and budget ceiling, prepare and submit their estimates to the Ministry of Finance, Budget and National Planning. After reviewing it, the Ministry will aggregate the budgets in the form of consolidated estimates of revenue and essential and then send it to the president for approval and the president on receiving the proposal as approved by the budget and planning ministry will present the draft estimate to the federal executive council for further consideration and approval after which the draft estimate is sent to the National Assembly where it is now in form of an appropriation bill. So at what point will people be smuggling things in if there is not a cartel of, you know, I mean, I want to be very civil in my expression and I don't want to be the state of the nation to reflect on what I have to say. Otherwise, I was going to wonder that at what point in time when we have this due process, will something now be denied? They don't know when somebody was something was smuggling. That means there must be some fraudulent personalities in the ecosystem of a budgeting process that are trying to take disadvantage of the country. I don't want to say take advantage because currently it appears as if this mission is bleeding, it's in an emergency state and some in that emergency state still want to take disadvantage. It's so sad. How can we bring them to justice? That's the big question. We've had several cases. Right now we have not recovered from the shock of oil tail. Nigerians losing trillions of dollars to oil tail. Have we not read recently that NNPC has remitted zero into the federation account? So where do we go from here? And the people you look, what is the meaning of budget? Budget is like the health line of the nation. And like I said, disturbingly, the so-called budget, 2023 budget of about 20,000 trillion Naira is coming as a deficit budget. We plan to earn a revenue of 9 trillion and to borrow about 8 trillion Naira. We are talking about subsidy. There is first capacity now. We have different kinds of prices and it's all sad. So we may be dealing with institutional crime here. But who brings them to justice? That's the big question because in the ecosystem of the budgeting process, I have mentioned the higher might, the federal executive council, the presidency, the nation and all of them. So we are looking up to the national assembly now where we have 109 senators and 360 house of rest members and they are representing their constituents all across the country. So we can see that it's a unique feature of democracy to look critically into this thing. So if the some ministries are denying, for instance, that they don't know how it got there, then let's involve the law enforcement agents to help us investigate. But don't forget also that recently a vessel was arrested, fair installing oil out of Nigeria and set ablaze on the high sea. So imagine that the initiative of defense found about 10.8 billion Naira, humanitarian affairs ministry, about 206 billion Naira, about 195 billion Naira for multilateral projects in power ministry. So Nigerians are the one paying for all this. Let's even assume we have the revenue. So if this gets through quietly, that means trillions of Naira will be stolen by some and taken away from the coffers of the nation to to find their embers of it's really sad. So we look up to the national assembly that discovered this to press down to justice. Has the national assembly ever come through by the logo as much as you keep harping and I'm not in any way, you know, being prejudicial in any but I'm just wondering, you keep saying that we look up to the national assembly. Has the national assembly ever come through in terms of things like this, whether it be padding or not? Again, you made reference to Professor Ponday. I would love to ask, where is Professor Ponday? Where is that issue right now? It's a dead end, isn't it? And you also pointed the fact that the vessel was, you know, set ablaze and the army chief said that there was nothing to investigate. So again, if we are at the messy of this so-called national assembly who's supposed to represent us and nothing is being done, what is the fate of the average Nigerian then? The fate of the average Nigerian is that if the Nigerian citizen becomes powerless to fight for him or herself, God Almighty will fight. And let me say this clearly. Really? We have to wait for God to fight our battles? Really? Why do we have government? A season of accountability for them. What God plans for Nigeria is prosperity and for that purpose he has blessed us extremely. And for those who believe that if you corner their prosperity, their selfish benefits, definitely they will account if not a man to God because it's just disturbing. You know, it's really disturbing. How do you even explain the oil table? How do you explain it? Different kinds of issues. Right now, we are talking about scarcity of oil. Why should Nigeria not have continental refineries? Several questions. Look at the foreign exchange sector. Do you know now that right now if you are traveling abroad and you are fortunate enough at home to get what is called the card they give you for your BTA? Some travelers have come back to say that you cannot even transit with those cards. So why do we have a nation that cannot boast of trust capital? Why is everything like this? And now ministries are arguing who is muggling some budgetary, extra budgetary provisions into the proposed budget. So we just wish that somewhere along the line, some of them become conscientious and know that the commonwealth of this nation should be the common good of the people. Already we are going about 42.5 trillion nairas, total debt. So who is going to pay that? Are we mortgaging the future of this country or securing the future of this country? So those are our concerns. And that is why, at this point in time, given the benefit of doubt, and we may expect that the National Assembly should press this down to a reasonable conclusion. And don't forget, many of those in the present ninth assembly may not return from what happened recently during the primaries, even the Senate president himself, from what we are getting back from the court, may not be returning to the National Assembly. So maybe that we really touch them where it counts for them to use this as a scapegoat case, accept the higher might you open to them and say the issue of their mic. Barsamoran, I mean, I can read this long list of padding cases that have been recorded over the years. But I want to not go in that direction. Now, if you were listening to the conversation, Barsamoran here is saying, well, if the National Assembly is not going to fight for us, then God will fight for us. Let me take you to Singapore, to China, the most of Southeast Asia. They believe in a God, I'm sure. But then they have laws that work a system that's programmed to work, not necessarily just for the people, but against corruption. That notwithstanding, there is corruption everywhere in the world, but then there is a system that has been watertight in a way that if you steal, you know the consequences. So, but in Nigeria, we always rely on God to fight our battles. Why do we even have leaders if we have to go to God to really fight our battles? Again, we're facing a downturn of sorts. Even though a lot of people would say that, oh, well, the whole world is trying to recover from COVID. It's been a year. Like you said, we're struggling with patrol of a country that has crude oil, but then we have not been able to record any amounts in the federal coffers from the NNPC that has been getting a facelift almost every year. I mean, the list is endless. Our children were at home for more than eight months because federal government was unable to come to an agreement with ASU. I can go on and on and on. How long are we going to wait for God to fight our battles when we have rights, responsibilities, and of course, we have our votes? Yes. Well, you see, my little friend said earlier, one thing we must do, we must get away from this thing of, oh, flying our hands up there. There's nothing we can do. What the first thing we can do now, given our situation in this. Mr. Maarene, can you hear me? Yes, these issues. One, two is this, we must call out as much as possible the security agencies because we cannot continue in this regard. These people are like, unfortunately, like rats. You know, if you put a rat in a sack of brain, it will eat and stool and eat until it finds itself into a point where it is there and it will not care. These people are ready to steal this country's life. Most of them have invested their money in stealing. And unfortunately, the civil servants are in co-hook with them. The security agencies are in co-hook with them. Look around you. How many retired IGs in Nigeria are not billionaires? How many commissioners or police in this country are not multi-millionaires? How many generals in this country are not multi-millionaires? How many permanent secretaries in this country are not multi-billionaires? Where do they get these monies from? We should ask questions. Does he end up asking questions because you see, this is an election cycle. Yeah, in fact, the campaigns are in full swing right now. And we are hearing all kinds of very outlandish promises. But then the how to, we see that we have the ICPC, we have the EFCC, we have the DSS. These are more like God dogs that are released on, you know, people for something as ridiculous as saying, oh, somebody looks fat in a picture. But when it comes down to the serious things. Somebody is arrested. Yes. People are moving billions. People are coming on to the National Assembly to tell the National Assembly that it's next swallowed money, that there are my state's receipts. How do you, how do you explain this in Nigeria? So why are we not punishing offenders? This is my question. I remember there was a recently a presidential pardon for two people who were elected into office, who also stole from the coffers of the country or the state. But these people have been granted presidential pardon. What kind of stricter sanctions need to be put in place? You guys are the lawyers here. I mean, we have a law. How much of this law has been tested? And how many people have we seen put behind bars? We keep seeing, oh, this person is being arrayed for one corruption issue or the other. But how many of these people have gone to jail in earnest so that we can actually say that corruption is being kicked out of this country or brought down to its barest minimum? Or are we going to continue like this? Well, we, we, we are finding ourselves that we are going to continue like this until we step out and say, like you said, this election circle until we say this is enough. Okay. I think that this is enough. If we don't do that, then we are shooting ourselves with the food. We will find out that we don't have a country anymore. I'm going to come back to you by Sir logo. I want to just go through some of the budget padding stories that we've had over the years. Can you hear me? Yeah, you were up for a bit, but let me just quickly go back to Brian Sir logo. Now in 2018, the Finance Minister and the Coordinating Minister of the economy in Gozio Country Wala leaked the 17 billion Naira budget padding, you know, that became a scandal. She leaked a 17 billion Naira budget padding by the National Assembly. It was in 2015, I beg your pardon. Now also let's fast forward to another year. In 2018, the National Assembly smuggled 6,403 projects worth 578 billion Naira into the 2018 budget. Now President Bukhari was the one who made this known. We move again to another one, a 424 billion Naira budget padding. Farooq Ahmed was bickering with ministries departments and agencies. The ICPC at some point in 2021 uncovered 400 billion Naira budget padding, 50 billion Naira ghost walker salaries also in that. Also in, I think in January of 2022, there was a budget padding that hit 3 trillion Naira. And this is something that's happened over six years. So I ask you again, Maristar logo, what should we be prioritizing as we go into this season of elections? Because it's not enough for us to draw draw about it. But what actions need to happen for certain persons to be brought to book? You know, it's important that all those who have their PVCs to come out and vote. And that is hoping that it both will count. That's another thing because when you find a society that is in the close of the corrupt, the corruption may run through the whole system. And that is why again, it remains shocking that the accountant general of the Federation entrusted with the funds of the nation was found to have stolen over 80 billion Naira when the world population stands at 8 billion. You know, even though this is... Maristar logo, are you still there? That is that vulnerable. We should be concerned. So let people go out and vote. But beyond this voting, how can we have a system of accountability? Can what we are going through here be read about in China, in Japan, in Iceland, in Rwanda, even in Africa here? I mean, we are reading news about what the former president of South Africa is going through now in the hands of the law. So it appears right now by perception that Nigeria has become so exposed to crime that few people are even afraid of reaching the loss of the land. And when you have loss that you are not implementing, you are as bad as you don't have loss. So for us, in the country, it's just because we have come to condone this massive criminality against the nation. Different kinds of stories that are unbelievable. I think they were having a connection problem there. So what I did there is to plunder the nation. And this must be explained. Recently contaminated fuel got imported into this country. To date, we cannot tell who was behind it. And many people suffered for it. Right now we are suffering from square scarcity and there appears to be no explanation even when the president of the country and the commander achieve himself is the substantive minister of petroleum resources. So what is at least going on? I think that's the big question that every one of us has to answer. And we one way or the other have to put an end to it. But we have to go gentlemen. I want to say thank you. Emmanuel Moran, Jido Logan, a post legal practitioner. Thank you so much for being part of the conversation. Thank you. God bless Nigeria. All right. Thank you. Well, we'll take a quick break. When we return, we'll be looking at the issue of the legality of Nigeria's constitution because the former NBA chairman, Mr. Wakoba has said that these documents that we're using are illegal. We'll be right back.