 Well, it's three minutes past, so perhaps we should start. Good evening, everybody. Good evening, friends and colleagues. Welcome. Welcome to SOS. Unfortunately, we couldn't meet in person this evening and we decided to move this evening event online. This is another one in our contemporary artist talk series. We've had a few of these. The one we had last year this time, almost exactly the same day, I think, was a feature of the work of another West African artist. So we're staying in West Africa this week, and I'm very pleased to welcome our distinguished guests and artists at this event. Today we're featuring the work of Arthur Timothy, who was born in Akira, in Ghana, who will be speaking to us about his latest exhibition, Postcards from a Promised Land, with reference to Sir Leo. Welcome, Timothy. Thank you very much for coming and speaking to us this evening. Timothy will be in conversation with another West African artist, Hassan Aloui, who is a British Nigerian artist. Welcome, Hassan. Thank you very much for coming. Chair this evening is Khadija George Sesse. Khadija is a literary activist who is published widely on West African literature, literary affairs. Khadija will be with us today, mainly as a chair, but also as a part participant in this conversation, discussion we're having this evening. Thank you very much, Khadija. Welcome. And very, very warm welcome to our online audience. Khadija will say a bit more about the gallery that we are in association with this evening gallery 1957. We have a webinar, so please feel free to our online audience, please feel free to participate in the discussion via the Q&A facility. But Khadija will say more about that too. So thank you very much and I'll end this over to Khadija. Thank you. Thank you Professor Dooling. Thank you everybody for coming. It's like a great honour to chair this event this evening. And as the weather has driven us to online, such as life will just have a conversational flow in the warmth. And yeah, so I'm going to introduce you to Arthur Timothy and Hasan Aliou this evening. But before I forget, we will be, let me just give you the format. We are going to be, well they're going to be more like in conversation for about 45 minutes, maybe a little bit longer. And, but we will be taking questions from you. And so any questions that you have, please put them in the Q&A. And that's where we'll pick up the questions from. But if you've got any information that you want to share that is useful, please put that in the chat, and so that everybody can share on that information as well and we will keep that. I'd like to thank, so as very much for hosting this too. It's really great to be part of this series and to have this conversation, to have this conversation here. Yeah, so the information, I'm going to give very brief bios because as where you signed on, you can see the bios of both artists. So I won't have to go into that. I'd rather just get into the conversation and just take it from there. So, yeah, so first of all, we have, as I said, Arthur Timothy, and I'm involved because I was very lucky to be able to write the text for his catalogue that will be coming out in January. The exhibition is until the 28th of January at Gallery 1957 at Hardt High Park Gate. And so there are actually the 1957 gallery actually opened up in Accra in Ghana and that now goes across four spaces, including, can you believe it, artists residential space, which is such a precious thing to have. All artists, no matter what genre you're working in, that's a precious thing to have. And now they have their gallery as well. In London, as well as sponsoring the Yaa Esantua Prize for Women Artists who work in Africa. So please go online to check all of that out. I'll put links into the chat for people to follow up on that. So I'm just going to open really with asking two very, a couple of bold questions for both of you. But first of all, since the exhibition just opened up last week, and, and I invited Hassan to to attend that Hassan, what were your impressions? What can people expect after the snow, and they get to go to the exhibition? What can they expect? Well, it was a fair trek from the nearest train station walking through High Park, and I'd never been to Gallery 1957 before. But when I got there, what I found was just so breathtaking. The exhibition opened up with a number of portrait paintings of some very happy young people. I wondered who these people were. And in fact, in the four years you go into the main galleries, you know, confronted with such pleasantly painted, beautiful faces of African children. I presumed that it was going to be predominantly a portrait based exhibition. So you can imagine my awe when I went into the main gallery and I saw these very huge, large paintings curated very, very close to one another. So quite tightly packed into the room. However, the effect was not claustrophobic. The effect was very airy because of the very soft, light, beautiful touch. It is wonderful technical painting that after highs. In the third gallery was a triptych, which is measures about six meters wide by just under two meters high. And as massive as that painting was, immersive as it was, it was not dominating. It didn't take over your spirit or make the room look small. As a matter of fact, it made the room look very, very big. It was a very enjoyable exhibition for a person who moved away from figuration for as long ago as I have. And I would urge that everybody goes down to see the exhibition. I've got some snippets in a PowerPoint presentation, which I've put together that should give you a taste of what you've got to see when you get to the gallery one night, five, seven after the snow. So I've got to chuck in there before I move over to Arthur to just talk about how he started getting started painting. Part of that wonderful experience you had. And like you say people don't always think about the curation they are going into look at the work, your entry into the gallery. And as you say, first of all, you have the portraiture of the children and then we're moving into the space. And we really have to thank Arthur's wife, Erica, for putting that plan together so efficiently in terms of his work and the space. So, yes, exactly. It was very well curated for the space, because also given the scale of that work, and the depth of the walkway of the four years you go into the gallery. That was the best place to have them. But I should you in new new you coming to see a happy exhibition. Right. It wasn't troubling, but then there was aspects of the Sierra Leone experience which then I am looking for in the exhibition, which I'd like to discuss further with Arthur because of our conversation. Before you do that I just like that baby talk about. He's, I didn't even introduce I know I said I was going to give you brief introductions and I literally gave you none. Who's also an architect. He's always been an artist really then an architect and an artist. And I'm you know I was just assuming that so many people knew, knew Hassan that I didn't introduce him very well but please go and look at his very experienced biography on the website. In terms of the so as well and then you can see why I asked him to come in and have this conversation with Arthur. So Arthur please can you just tell us a little bit about how you became more involved now more with visual art than the architectural side of your work. Sure. Actually, first of all, if I could just thank Hassan for that really nice introduction about the exhibition. And I actually like to say that in looking at Hassan's work I mean he is, he is much more of an artist than I think I am because for me, art is something that I've only recently started doing. I've been an architect for a very long time. I used to mention earlier I trained for seven years for an architect, but I always used to paint and draw as a hobby. And it was something that I normally get at weekends. And what happened was that my son Duval made a stretch to canvas and gave it to me one Christmas with a Christmas present. And so I had, because it was a present from him I had to, I had to do something. So I had this canvas on an easel in my office for three months before I actually started working on it. Eventually I started painting. I went on to finish one painting. Then I sort of grew in confidence and I did another one. And when that painting was finished, my wife Erica suggested that I should put them in for the summer exhibition at the Royal Academy. We did that and fortunately or miraculously both of them got accepted. And then I was approached by a number of people who asked if they could buy the paintings and I said that they were not a sale. And then I was approached by another gentleman who asked if I would be interested in having an exhibition in a gallery in Mayfair, which was the Ronkini Gallery. So I was very excited about prospect and agreed to do eight paintings for that exhibition. And so really that's how I started it. It's really accidental. It wasn't something that I expected. It just really came out of nowhere really. That must be such a thrill though, when somebody says to please, you know, we'd like to show your work in a gallery. It was really nice. Do you know sometimes if you feel that there's something that you can do and you're not doing it, I think it kind of upsets your sort of life balance. And I think this is why my son, I think my son Vival knew that I was interested in art and that I was slightly frustrated. I would say that I would imagine that this history, which is fairly recent, you know, when Duval gave you this canvas in 2018, which is only very recently. I am sure that in your years when you're growing up, when you're going to school, you would have excelled in class as perhaps the best artist in your class. So you've already known that you have the flair and the knack for, you know, doing this without too much effort. Yes, I'm not going to be modest here. Yes, I did. I've always known that, and you're right, from a very young age, I was good at drawing. I always knew that I could do it. We always know from childhood. We always know that that's the one thing that we do. In fact, I'm sure your time in your time was before my knowledge. My parents tried to dissuade me from doing that because I did that too much, the detriment of everything else. I spent much more time sketching and drawing than I spent doing my math or my science. And then in Africa, those, the art, the sketching, drawing and making art, making paintings was not deemed to be an acceptable career for a child to pursue as such in the 70s, 60s. Yes, you're right. I actually remember a conversation with my late father when I was before going to university and I was interested in. I mean, by that time I was interested in architecture, but I was also interested in art and actually history as well. And when we discussed art, he sort of looked at me and said that he did not think that this would be a way that I could sort of make a living. And he felt he felt that architecture was actually the best combination of the skill or the talents I had. So yes, I think he sort of encouraged me into that. I'm going to show a few slides of your work, and particularly just to give the audience online and impression of what we're talking about because it's so very difficult to talk about art in absentia. So at least they'll see the whole, you are a very people person. Family is extremely important to you. That comes across in everything you've said to me ever since this first minute I met you. I knew your children's name before I even saw them at the gallery, right. I know what part Erica plays in your, in your work. And, you know, it's just such a beautiful thing. And then also your work is so figurative. And most of these figures that you represent are people who are connected to you in one way or another. So let's have a look at some of this work just to give people an idea of what there is that we're talking about. The first slide I'm going to show is the piece that got it all started at least professionally from the Royal Academies. It's an exhibition. So bear with me. Let me try to work this PowerPoint and then I can be on the slideshow and play from current. Okay, so that's the piece, the second figure from the left being your mother. From the right, actually. And so this is a piece that you painted on the canvas that Duval gave to you in 2018, which had stuck in your office for a while. Tell us about this piece and about your figuration general. Yes, this is of my mother, and actually a friend of hers, and two cousins who are twins on either side called Ivy and Iva Johnson. And they were going, or they just arrived, I think, for a reception or party. And I was really interested in this because it was from a black and white photograph that I had. And they were wearing these wonderful dresses and my mother was a dressmaker. And the dress that my mother was wearing, although it was black and white, I actually remember the color, the colors in that dress. Because my brother and I, when we were young we used to sit with my mother in her studio, when she was making clothes for her clients and so on. And, but I remember this particular fabric so for me it was actually quite easy to, to put color to it. And I just really liked the image of four very confident, well-dressed women who were just out to enjoy themselves and I just really wanted to try and sort of convey that actually. So this picture was taken in the fifties or the sixties, the sixties. This one was sixties. And then the choice of the background color also it's the contrast between the color of the central figures in the painting, and the background and in the foreground the deep crimson of the ground there the contrast there sort of accentuates this forms very beautifully. This was the actual colors in the picture from which you painted, but these are pictures, these are colors that you have introduced as a result of a very thorough and really good high level understanding of the impacts of color. Thank you for saying that Hassan, I mean, I think a lot of it actually came about with experimentation and, you know, somehow instinctively you know when something, something is working. So, yeah, so I did experiment and then I got to this, to these particular colors which I think worked very well and seem to bring the figures forward and also Brownburn. Yes, amazing. And your first solo exhibition in Ghana was last year at the Gallery 1957, and it was titled Grand Mars House, which was curated by the celebrated curator echo Eschen, who's recently done in the black fantastic at the Hayward Gallery. Yeah. How was the experience of working with him? It was, it was, it was great. I mean, just just to correct you as I knew was for the exhibition was called Grand Mars Hands. No, but working with echo was, was great. And I think he really understood what I was, what I was trying to do with the exhibition and also looking at it was really a question of sort of I was trying to look at my family. I have a Ghanaian side of my family and the Sierra Leonean side and their history, and also during the colonial period, you know what was going on in Ghana and just sort of really, because I, I mean, I did not find that there were very many images. I'm not sure people are actually aware of what society would like at that time. You know, the whole thing, the history of Ghana, and, and I'm doing Krumah, and the way that Ghana was really, I mean, in some ways I think Ghana was actually, but it was leaving the rest of Africa. It was a very, very important, important example. So I kind of wanted to bring that out. Okay, since we're on Ghana, I might as well continue on the Ghana as a, as a discussion point. This here is a portrait of your father and your mother. Your father was a journalist at this time he worked in Ghana, is that correct. This is one of two pieces that you showed which are selected for the Real Academies summer exhibition, which you were offered a purchase which you declined and subsequently an exhibition came out of it. But tell me about this painting in terms of that story which we discussed earlier on about why you left Ghana to go back to Sierra Leone or to go to Sierra Leone. Yes, well, well, my father, you see, there's very interesting history to this because I told this story to Khadija before because my grandmother brought my, to raise my father on her own. And my grandmother ran a bakery, which was near her house. She built this house by herself. And she, she was able to send my father to come to study in England at that time, which was, you know, a big deal for a single woman. And my father originally came to England and he was going to study dentistry. But when he got here he decided that he was more interested in journalism, he wanted to be a journalist. So he, he didn't actually tell my grandmother but he, because she sacrificed so much to get him here. And I think, you know, he actually became a journalist. And it was later on when he was doing well that he actually told my grandmother. And she was, she was, I was going to say happy but I think she was pacified because he was doing quite well for himself. And my advice hadn't been in vain. Anyway, subsequently he actually, he was the first black journalist to work on Bleed Street. He worked for the Daily Express, which was done by this chap, Lord Beaverbrook. And later on, they sent him to Ghana because they owned a newspaper. In fact, I think it was another press parent called Cecil King, who owned the Daily Graphic. So my father was sent there and became the editor. And he was very, I mean, he was, he was a pan-Africanist, he was, he was really delighted about what was going on in Ghana. He was very happy initially with what Inkrumah was doing. But as Inkrumah became more, like you say, it's a work autocratic perhaps. My father, yeah, he was very critical. And through his articles, he became one more critical of Inkrumah and what Inkrumah was doing in Ghana. And there was one particular article he wrote, which was the title of which was What Next Kwame, which particularly incensed Inkrumah. And as a result of that, my father was deported with a couple of other people by Inkrumah. And he said that he was deporting him because his presence was not conducive to the public good. So as a Sierra Leonean, of course, being in Ghana, it was easy for my father to go to Sierra Leone. And we went there and lived there subsequently. And this particular painting for me, I think it sort of shows my, obviously I didn't see my father or my mother like this. But when I found the image, it, to me, it kind of typical, or sorry, they resonated with my father's kind of, there was a kind of, how can I say, he had a certain fearlessness. And to me, it came through in this image. And my mother, as a dressmaker, you know, the dress that she was wearing was really beautiful. And so, yeah, I, yeah, it sort of resonated with me somehow. Yeah, it's a beautiful painting. Some of the issues that led to your father's deportation are issues that are called modern ones in Ghana. And I know that in 1971, the Nigerians who were living in Ghana were deported without the benefit of taking along the way with all the businesses or the cars or the property. They were investigated by the Ghanaian government. And then subsequently in 1979, Nigeria retaliated by deporting Ghanaians who lost, you know, from Nigeria, which, again, for me now in my current awareness, I find really difficult to sort of reconcile with pan-Africanism. Because we are simply sort of enforcing those colonial borders, you know, amongst the people who we are, on the other hand, trying to, you know, sort of advocate one next four. Yeah, absolutely. It's kind of a contradiction, but it's a nice story to know, you know, that Krumah would have done a thing like that. Yes. Power crops and absolute power crops, absolutely. So that could have been one of the manifestations of that term, of that statement. But let's look at the painting of your mother's, your grandmother's house, which is where, which shows, you know, celebrates her life and perhaps says about her achievement as a single man who was able to send her son to study in England in the 50s. So this one is part of the exhibition, right? Just to let people know. Yeah, this is an exhibition. This is an exhibition. So it all comes from a promise man. Thank you, Padme. I'm having a bit of a, a bit of current. Okay, so that painting. So that's a really so affluent looking house in the middle of less affluent surroundings with the contradiction of a corrugated sheet hoarding, perhaps maybe a dilapidated or collapsing building right next door to this really sort of stately home if you like. We find a lot of such contradictions in Nigeria, so I'm sure that you do too in Sierra Leone. So yeah, tell us about this painting, was your focus on the house or on the foregrounded figures in, you know, the various. I think that my focus was really on the figures on just the life of the street. But also in the time I spent in Sierra Leone and going back on holidays. This particular spot is where my brother and I used to hang out with friends on on the left hand side, beyond the picture. My grandmother, my grandma had two brothers. Grandpa Thomas lived on this side on the left and another brother, whose name was ecu lived on the right. So we, we, for me when I was doing this actually all these memories were just coming, coming back. And, but really it's really about the street life, you know the noises people don't buy the hustle and bustle of everyday life. And the house is really a backdrop, but for the house, I, on the, on the lower level at the site, by where the figures are. That is where my mother had her dressmaking studio. When we were little, and we lived upstairs after my family came back from Ghana, and my grandmother was, was downstairs. But, but it's all it's, to me, honestly, it's in a way it's a bit like therapy because when I was painting this picture and others. I was just really taken back. And it was a great, very pleasant experience. So can you tell us a bit more about that therapy? How was it therapeutic? Is it therapeutic because the reality you see in the, in the town, right, and then the artists a form of escape from that reality, translating that reality to a beautiful painting. Is that the therapy? So I think for me, the therapy was actually in just bringing back the good times that we had while we were growing up there. And, yeah, just remembering the people and the place. When did you, when did you come to the UK? We came here in April 1966. You were 10 years old then? I was nine. And we, we came by a passenger ship, which was called the MV Oriel. Did you know it? Of course I did. Yes, of course. It was all of West Africa. So it's our equivalent of the Windrush. Yes, that's right. And it was owned by Elder Dempster. That's right. Yes, there was also the Oriel, there was the Appappa wasn't there. That's another one. And the journey took us nine days. And we stopped off at Las Palmas on the way. And I remember going through the Bay of Biscay, which was so rough, people were just being sick over the slides of the boat and so on. And we arrived and my father came to meet us. I remember him turning up with his big heavy coats, a scarf, and a big sort of trolley hat. And I remember the cold and we went straight down to London where he lived. And it was, I mean, subsequently we, I mean, London was really buzzing because we were very central. My father lived in Facebook and he had a nice place there. And so, and we were just by Hyde Park. So we, my brother and I had a really nice time. So at that very time, I was getting deported. Well, not deported, I was getting taken back to Nigeria, because in those days in the 60s when I was born, the day we came from hospital was the day that our landlady threw us out of the house. And I haven't tried to find foster care for myself or my twin sister. And without much luck, as a matter of fact, the foster parent, then going to get caught for shoplifting. The only option was to send us back to Nigeria. So while you were coming to the UK, and having that experience and those memories, those enchanting experiences of Sierra Leone, we were just going back to Nigeria to face a different kind of life entirely. So that's two different stories to the black experience of the 60s. Yeah. And I think your story is a privileged experience. And so, but that said, I think if we look at some of those portraits, which I said earlier as you enter your exhibition, those portraits, I would imagine that when you came here as a nine year old, you'd be thinking about some of the friends you had at that time. The sense of nostalgia is very well established and entrenched, especially being in a foreign land where suddenly from seeing giggly, happy faces with no hair and no clothes, not a lot of money, but happy all day long. So coming here and it's completely different culture shock, possibly. That's me concluded maybe prematurely so correctly from wrong. No, no, no. I think you're right. So I'm going to go to those portraits because this really sort of helps me sort of see a perspective to why this works I even more important than I thought originally as part of your practice. So these are, you know, children in the neighborhood. Please tell us your relationship to them. I know that some of them were like family since that they grew up with your grandmother. Yes, well, they, they, they actually, they live in in the house that was my grandmother's house. And my second son, Duval, has now taken on the house and so he spends a part of each year living, living at the house. And these are the grandchildren. I mentioned earlier on that my grandmother, a lady called Virginia. And these are actually Virginia's grandchildren. And Virginia's children are younger than younger than me, but they're two boys. Omelari and Elkana. And these are Elkana's children. And so, every time we go back, you know, we see them and we are really family. And they still, they still live there. Who's this beauty? This is Harriet, actually. And interesting enough, Harriet was actually named after my grandmother. And she, she, you know, I just look at, looking at her image. She's, she was a very cheeky sort of impish little girl. And so, you know, she's now, she's now grown up, but this was an image of her on one of our holidays back. And this is Sydney and Valentine. Daniel, sorry, Daniel and Valentine. And Daniel was crying not to smile. He was trying to keep a very straight face. And of course, the city behind was trying to make him, make him laugh. And this is Ruth. And Ruth lived at my mother's house. My mother's house was actually further away. And whereas my grandmother's house was right in the center of town. This is a portrait of Harriet when she's older and she was attending the Annie Walsh girl school. It is a very famous school actually. I think it's the oldest, I think it's actually the oldest girls calling West Africa. Is it older than Frabe? I think, I think, I'm not sure. Frabe is the oldest university in West Africa. But I think that Annie Walsh school is probably either the same age or it might be even older. And interesting enough, my... I think it is older. I think it is older. And I put it in some of the information that I had about this image. And I sent it to a cerionian and he said, it's not possibly Khadija. It's definitely the oldest one in West Africa. Here we have it from an expert. It's definitely the oldest in West Africa. The oldest girl school, girl secondary school. And it has a wonderful tradition. And in fact, my late mother and her sisters were all educated at Annie Walsh. So her father and Ghana sent them all over to cerionian to be educated. And who are these? Pradi Pradi, that's friends friends. Pradi that's friends, yeah. It's Harriet on the right, which is little and a friend of hers who would come today. And this was at my mother's house, just on the veranda. And I think, well, I hope it just captures the sort of innocence of you. Yeah, it's beautiful. But these two children, we went up to the provinces. And we stopped at a village on the way to a place called Robonco. And these two children were amongst others who stopped to say hello to us and so on. But there was something about the image of them that really touched us. And I kind of felt that they seemed to have a kind of certain wisdom that is beyond the way they were sort of looking. And I was trying to capture that. Very beautifully captured. And my question here now becomes, how did you feel when suddenly these children became victims of a brutal war, where they were totally, you know, impossible to hurt anybody yet. They were getting their limbs chopped up amputated during the wars. How do you feel horrified and, you know, it's something that had never happened. And I think that actually people just could not believe that such horror could be happening in Sierra Leone and they could not understand where this came from. And I mean, obviously, we found out that it started in Liberia under Charles Taylor, the then president. And, you know, wanting to and that it was fueled by wanting to get the diamond mines, and so forth. But the actual way in which the rebel war was carried out and the atrocities that the soldiers committed. I think to this day it's still something that is very hard to come to terms with. On subsequent visits to Sierra Leone, you know, we would cousins would point out people who were ex, you know, combatants who, who had actually committed terrible atrocities themselves during the war, but somehow. I don't understand this but but people were actually willing to kind of forgive and move on with their lives. I met someone who had had a leg amputated during the war. And my cousin told me that he encountered the person who had actually done that to him in town one day, but just was able to just let it go. And if you, you just cannot imagine what that must have been like. Yeah, and of course, yourself and Erica involved with the charity handicapped international who make or donate prosthetics for amputees, you know, victims of this war. Yes, we got it. Yes, we were involved with this charity and helped to build a center for making prosthetics at that time. Okay, and is this sort of historical experience is it going to ever are you going to respond to this in your practice in your art practice are you going to make pieces that document this horrible period as a way to offer so called to people who have been victims so in fact even to reflect. No team of lead experience of Sierra Leone. Yes, I think I think it's something that I will address and it is actually something that when I was looking at images for this for these paintings. It is something that I did actually look at so it is something that I have in the back of my mind. And then on the other, you know, sort of horrendous experience from, you know, is Ebola. And I see I don't see very much of that reflection in the work. Is that something also for the future. Again, I think it is. It's the same thing. I mean, in fact, Khadija addressed this in her text that these, these are the two major events in Sierra Leone that caused so much disruption and heartache. But yes, it is definitely something that will be addressed. Sure. And you've been in England since you were nine years old. Does the English countryside not interest you as a topic for a landscape painting. Well, actually, my wife likes going for long walks in the countryside and she often tries to drag me along. She has she has this trick of saying that oh it's we're only going for one mile. And then you find five miles later you're still walking. But I, I, I, it doesn't. It doesn't feature in my, my paintings. Yes, I would say I am. I live, I live in Bath which is very close to very nice countryside. But so far it's not something that I wanted to paint. But I'm sure there will come a time when I will. Of course, yeah, at the right time. Yes, indeed. So yourself and the family go to Sierra Leone regularly. And I might see this is your Airbnb accommodation. I wish it was. This is, this is for a baby. This is one of the very old buildings on the on the campus. We, we have been there looking around and taking some photographs and this is one of the lovely old buildings. Which was a sort of full of character. One of the themes of this exhibition is the the effects of the climate on on the on the landscape and on buildings, because as you know we have a very heavy rain season. We have sunshine for six months or so every year. But the effects and the lack of maintenance mean that you get a lot of buildings actually deteriorate very, very, very quickly. And are often not not sort of looked after. So when when you're going and coming sort of back and forwards you really notice the effects of this. However, having said that the people are very, very resilient and even though I mean I think perhaps if someone someone from the West was to visit, they would perhaps go to some buildings or some houses and think, you know how how in a family live here. This house is not maintained, you know, they might, they might think it looks dirty but actually the people who live there will keep it spotless and you know the place will be swept every day and be really clean. And so on and so it and that that was, I think maybe I'm sort of asking myself questions as I'm doing these paintings. At the same time there's a legacy of colonialism, we have these buildings that were built in colonial era. Yeah, so that's, I mean, it's the resilience of the people that keeps them standing. They might not be pretty as the way they were built but they are still as functional as the way from that first year. However, as a painting. I really love the blue and the greens that sky and how that really sets off the fall the fall the age, you know in the in behind the house, as well as in fact it's just got such a soft feel looking at you on screen almost feels like a watercolor painting with some oil on canvas. I've also looked very closely at some of your technique. You use a lot of washes so you use a very clean wash to get the effect of depth and your tonal gradation, which I think is really well done. And I really like it. Yeah, I should I should another. I'm just gonna say that interest. Sorry, just as a point of interest. Yamade has told us that for a bay is older than any wash. Just okay. And, and so can I just ask you, can you just turn down your microphone just a little bit please I think you're getting some feedback. Sorry. Is that better. Hopefully we don't sometimes know until you're talking so hopefully that will do it. Thank you. This is the same sort of dilapidated almost, you know, sort of collapsed building, but that dilapidation is not an I saw, because it's in a painting. It almost looks quaint and quite pleasant to look at as a painting. But if you were if you have to go into the building, then you would be maybe in shock or in or as to how can this still be standing on people living in it. Yes. So tell us about this. Well, this, this building actually was in village called Charlotte and frozen, I think. Is it me or is it him frozen Arthur a little bit so can you go back to what we say. Yeah. Can you start your answer again the last thing we heard was the buildings in shallow. That's the last thing I heard. Okay, yes, Jason Charlotte Charlotte is an old Creole village, which was founded by or established by the freed slaves who returned to Syria and as Khadija wrote in the catalogue. It was named after Princess Charlotte who was the daughter of George. I think George of King George of both. And so but these structures are still there and they were actually built by the freed slaves. And you can see you can see that they have been patched up over time, and so on, but the descendants of these freed slaves are still living there. So, for me when I, when I saw these buildings. I think, you know, it means, it means a great deal actually. You know, it and it also made me think of, you know, the title which was the first cuts from a promised land of the promises that were made to the freed slaves and and just made me question whether, whether those promises have actually been realized. So it has a, its story set in slavery, yet the sort of a figuration or a composite or subject matter of slavery is not directly there in your practice. That is slavery is a history of Sierra Leone. Does it is it something also they are going to be engaging on in time to come. So more directly. So, um, I don't, it's an interesting one. Possibly, I, I, I found the my visits to Ghana and visiting the slave forts the existing slave forts in Ghana. Incredibly powerful. But with the, the history of Sierra Leone and I, you know, I was reading about this and, and about the Creoles and as Khalid has mentioned, and yet me they is involved with it. I think she has started that she started some time ago. Society which actually keeps the traditions of the Creole people alive. That's crude. Well, right. Okay. And it's a fantastic, fantastic thing and I, and I find that the history of Sierra Leone is incredible and perhaps not not well known. It is a really interesting story and it's something that I'm certainly fascinated in and want to look into more deeply. Excellent. In the meantime, we enjoy this beautiful painting. I noticed some of your work like one of the pieces which had was it had the water, the waterfall that one there. There was some techniques you use which I found quite fascinating. Of course me in the days I use a brush as well. It almost seems sprayed so they serve another it's so well so delicately captured. And how have you achieved this effect is it brushwork. It's not palette my that's for sure. It's, it's, it is brushwork actually has spread sprayed from the brush. And I, I, I flipped. I actually flipped the brush sometimes with the paint on. So you get you get that sort of sets of movement as the paint sort of slides along the canvas. So yeah, I experimented to like. Got a technique that seemed to work really. Very interesting. And this are the children, Eric, Charlotte. Yes, Erica Isabella and. Isabella and Deval that's right. Whilst whilst you're taking a slight pause, can I go to one of my favorite. Oh, you're going to talk about Isabella's head start. That's exactly where I was leading. Okay, then I'm going to, then I will ask another one afterwards to talk about. Okay, sure. So, I'm sorry about my field effort to remember the children's names. Now, this is a landmark painting I was mentioning earlier, which is nearly six meters long by nearly two meters high. And it's in a not exceptionally large room, but it doesn't overwhelm the room. So please tell me the story the beautiful story you told I think I'm sure everybody else would like to hear about it. You know, about this painting, please. Is that we were on holiday with the family, and we decided to have a race along the beach. And Erica is the one who actually officiated and was the one who started started the race. So that we decided that we would actually have a head start by age so we gave Isabella a huge start, which I think must have been about 50 meters. And then Duval because Duval was the second youngest. Duval was then given another distance, maybe 25 meters or so. And then Miles was behind him. And then then they put me back as far as they could. And so Erica started the race. But I was really a long, long way way back. And Erica started the race. And so we all started and Isabella was kind of going from side to side and really running as fast as she could. But I'm pretty sure it's four years old at the time. I should be a man. But I was desperate to catch up. And so and I did and you know the boys as well. And when we overtook Izzy, she burst into tears. Where's everybody else on this beach? There was no one else. There was no one else there. This is the thing that, you know, it's possible in Sierra Leone to sometimes go to beaches when there's no one there. You know, obviously now it's probably different but that I think if you go early still there's some beaches where it's still people out there. Yeah, there is though. There is an issue though of sort of urban sprawl a sort of encroachment. And one of the problems is that this is a sort of sort of UNESCO heritage site, the forests behind the peninsula, and the government are not really doing it enough to protect it. And that really is something that they need to preserve because, you know, if they allow this to be lost, it will be a real shame. So can we go to this? Oh, can we go to the place in the forest? Whilst we're doing that, I'm just going to, Professor Wayne Dooling has just said there's a book if people are interested, The Creoles of Sierra Leone, published in 1974 by El Spitzer, is a good history. So take care of that please in the chapter. I noticed at the launch, Arthur, you were probably doing your very good milling around, but I noticed as I listen to people, this is one of the paintings that really took people's breath away. So whoever's listening and seeing now, you may not get the glory of it all, which is why you have to go to the exhibition, but people will say, this is what I'm going to buy. It's just really is so breathtaking. And it's got this combination of you're having these, you know, us as humans in this beautiful place, but it takes you over, nature takes you over in such an amazing way. And this is really epitomizes that, you know, and, and other people saying it just makes me want to go to Sierra Leone. So I think that is one is a very breathtaking one. I just wanted to, to mention that. The photograph doesn't do injustice at all. It doesn't, no. Because there's so many tones, so many graduations of color. Exactly. And then at the end of the fall age, right, the naples yellow almost naples, then as it graduates to the yellow to the pinks, and then then goes on to the blues and then the, the violets, you know, very light pastel looking colors, then the strength of the contrast between the jungle and then the greenery or the greenness of the river, reflections of the sky. It's impossible to see in this picture you really need to see the exhibition see this painting. Yeah, you can almost see, even though, you know, where the boat is with them and the people you can almost imagine how they've gone and glided in. And they're going to disappear into the forest. It's, oh, it's great. Also for technique as well. I mean, this is one of the ones where you use the paint very runny, you know, and then you kind of slap the brush around to create that movement of the water. You don't paint with a palette knife, do you? No, I don't. I never use a palette knife. Okay, you just use it at times, such as in that purple landscape in the fall age. Yes. Suggested. Yeah, it's incredibly well done. Thank you. I found the, the, the, the foliage was really sort of quite magical and mysterious. And also that I think the scale with the people in the boat and it's very dense vegetation. Yeah, it's a very limited palette. Yes. There's no shortage of depth in the effect that you've achieved through the brush strokes, because some of that foliage is defined by the brush stroke. So they cross the hatching of the brush rather than the changing of the colors. So it's, you could have the same color. It's just the way the light hits the color. The way the brush is inclined on the canvas. And that's, that's beautifully done. Thank you. Sorry, I'm lost now. I don't know which way I'm navigating. Okay, so that's the one I was looking at. So we go to questions. So I'm just encouraging people if they have questions, we will come through questions in a few minutes. So, so again, the way the horizon is rising from the bottom through in that golden sort of blend of colors of yellows and some light orange you can just about see the orange through you can see the pain is achieved through a process of layering. There's a transition on the painting and then there's paintings painted over it to create that three dimensional effect of transition of color. And then as it goes progresses beyond the foliage, the leaves, it then completely changes the color scheme changes completely. It's then becomes almost a dull, grayish, pinkish, almost off whitish combination. And that transition as it rises through from the depth of that purple at the bottom, the deep violet on the bottom, rise through to the gold and then back. It's just a good transition, in my view. It's a transition I'd like to achieve in my own work. I've got a little bit of a comment there somebody we have John O'Callis and a lovely comment I'll just read part of it. If I can find a as an artist I am impressed by the clarity of thought and craft that's gone into these paintings. Arthur's many years of architectural practice and expertise is very evident in the draftmanship shown the beautiful use of perspective brushwork and color harmony is just wonderful. I love the way both these art forms as an architect and as a painter. Yeah. Yes, wonderful. In this tropical landscapes with the same sort of dilapidated surroundings that don't look so pathetic to look at as a painting because it's beautifully rendered. Okay. I'm going to open for questions soon so I don't know if before I do, if I know Arthur you want to add some other. Yes, I do. Thank you. Thanks. Yes, I actually I wanted to to ask you have some actually about about your experiences. Because I know that you have been an artist for a very long time. So, whereas I'm just really a newcomer. So I really wanted to ask you about your experiences and and to ask you about some of the obstacles that that you think actually exist or things that you've experienced. I went to art school. I went to art school in Nigeria. I graduated in 1996 for a fine art. I'm all the building universities area as the best final year student. Yeah, I think we've just got you back. Sorry. Hassan, I think it is that me or is that can you hear me. I can hear you now. So I don't know how much you heard but I'm not going to go over it. Oh, I see and beg your pardon my internet connection is unstable. Okay, so shortly after graduation, I set up my studio in Lagos. Back then in 1987, there weren't any galleries in Lagos any commercial galleries, you could show in the anyone of a number of foreign cultural missions. In the US Information Center go to Institute French Cultural Center, sometimes the British Council, and then of course the National Museum and the National Gallery. Maybe some hotels like Sheraton. There was those are the places where we could show our work. It was very active. I showed my work very regularly in Lagos. And in, in the, in late 80s, when the Soviet culture center opened up in Nigeria following glass nose tamper striker. So basically when the Soviet Union USSR decided to have cultural affiliations with other countries in the world, rather than be a pariah nation on its own. And effectively, I was the first artist to exhibit at the new Soviet culture center in Lagos, which was very well attended by government and diplomatic core and all that. I came to London on invitation by an artist who was based here at the time, called him on a jaggedy invited me to come and have a show with him here I'd been born in London. I was born in southern Nigeria, following the unfortunate events of, you know, having to be sent home, because of, you know, circumstances of, you know, living circumstances my parents back in the 60s. And when I came back, by the time I came back, I'd been quite an experienced artist. But one thing I noticed was that I was being categorized. For the first time, I certainly found myself as a black artist and belonging in this category called black art, which wasn't either to where I would categorize or define myself. I had to redefine myself, I had to start my career from scratch. I worked for another. I am set up. I worked for in the, in the black art space initially working as you're helping out with some curation, the, the Caribbean craft circle in Shepard's Bush in London. Subsequently, I worked as curator of the 190 gallery from 1992 to 1996. Then I set up now without house with Raymond Watson, son of barrington Watson, whose brother Raymond whose brother did the recent of the Windrush monument in Waterloo. But I always had my studio. I did a number of commercial work I've illustrated my work has been used as illustrations for a good number of from Heineman African writer series titles, including a few of Amarata I do the Ghanaian writer as well as a number of others. I run my studio in Rainham Essex, and I also have a private gallery where I show my work as well as I represent the Nigeria art society of which I'm the founding president. I have exhibitions all over the world are current or an exhibition is titled legacies of the effort. It originated in 2018 at Brunei Gallery in London, and has recently shown at Gary Oldham. It intended to go to Eva Leverhouse in Baywright. That tall schedule has been disrupted by COVID, but we're still talking about doing it sometimes soon in the very near future. I do a lot of commission work. I work for a whole pile of people and paint all kinds of things. So I've got two trends to my work, myself initiated work and the work that a commissioner would ask me to make for. Yeah, so that's essentially my story. So the art and the so the attitude towards the art that we make has transformed quite significantly in the last decade, decade and a half. In fact, maybe two decades since globalization since the GT Bank of Nigeria, so from activated the whole idea of collecting in by public institutions such as the tape modern on the tape, generally, in the UK. And there's been a lot more sort of engagement by the private art gallery sector, as well as the new art phase I find, you know, that's around the world. So there's been a lot of visibility on work by non British English white artists in London and, you know, in the metropoles of, you know, the art world, generally. So that's, that's up to now unless you want to say a lot more there's a lot more to see but it's not about me is it your conversation. I'm really interested in and thank you for giving that background actually because I was looking at your work and I really like the techniques that you've used with the way that. In fact, there was one title of one of your, your pictures that I think we almost share the same title because yours was, I think it was a good ship. Oh yes. Yes. And I did a painting which I call the good ship and the oral, which was right. Oh, wonderful. Yes, absolutely. You saw how excited I was so high excited I got when you were real. And I nearly jumped out because I'm working on a project as a matter of fact, I was on a conference with Khadija, the Vienna, the by now conference of the association African studies association or University of Liverpool, Liverpool in September. And there was a lot of talking about the Oreo. It's a project that I was, we, we, Dr. Louisa and myself would been talking about a few years, because in the poll conversation around wind rush. It's almost on the periphery of that conversation. The fact that Africans also contributed in helping Britain to recover from the post war destruction and recovery. You know, so the people who came from Africa, they just didn't come on the empire wind rush. And so therefore they've sort of been sidelined in the corridors in the passage of history. And we wanted to revive that conversation, but a passage on the good ship is a remake of a painting I did in 1993. And the painting was called Flight of the Maroon. It was looking really based on the theme of slavery, but then the passage on the good ship was also based on the theme of Brexit. And my fear for the somebody revival, if you like, of the antagonism of the, of the settler whose calm was migrated to leave in the UK, because it was all about otherness. Right. And, and I found that that sort of narrative around Brexit was just so strong that I felt uncomfortable. Many people, many Africans and migrants have come to the UK didn't vote for Brexit for the very reason that they thought he had a racial agenda to it. That might be detrimental to them. So that was what, you know, so spurred that painting, the good ship, the passage on the good ship. I'm also, I'm also doing a doctorate. I'm in my fourth year of a doctorate and I'm looking at the subject, the topic of anti black violence. And so that's where that comes from, as well as the themes of war displacement and of expulsions and deportations of by one African country of another country's nationals. So that's fascinating. And also, I noticed that your, your, your style, it really is reminiscent of the Italian futurism. And I can you say a little bit about that. Yeah, I mean, sorry, my earphones have just died as I feared. So I'm going to try to turn, I'm going to turn my audio to the laptop, which might echo a bit, which is what we're trying to avoid, but bear with me a sec so I can discuss that. Whilst you're doing that. I'm going to ask Arthur a question that we've got here. I'll just respond to one of the questions somebody's asked when this conversation will be available, it will be online with so as in about a week but it will also, I think will be on the site with gallery one nine five seven two. So, this will be available. And, and the text that I've written, we think we've covered a lot this evening. Yeah, there's more. I talk about things from a different slightly different angle, but maybe what they've discussed this evening, and that will be available in the catalogue that will be available in January. So that is an answer to that question. Are you ready Hassan. Okay, go ahead. In terms of technique. When I went to university in 1981. Nigeria was going through the structural adjustment program. We had just had the oil plot. And there was just about the same man who's president of Nigeria now was president then, and he basically he had to undergo the impetition of materials. And as a result, artists had to find other materials to work with. Some artists decided to use burnt wood so they'll take a piece of board and take a candle to it, and make their images, score a few parts of it. And, you know, innovation and, you know, became a norm, if you like, you know, people went back to traditional art materials such as making works with beadwork painting with beadwork with fabrics, you know, and a whole range of stuff. So I painted with this category known as essential commodities. These were the only consumer products that were not embargoed, and they typically wear imports from Tate and Lyle from Cadbury's, you know, the companies the colonial, you know, conglomerates, who had been, you know, shipping their products out to Africa as a way to sort of, you know, for the market, if you see what I'm saying. So, but the packaging that those products came in were brightly coloured so I started to do work with collage. So a lot of the work I made over the years were either with collage or with a self-tempered paint. The paint which I used back then was a powder pigment that was offered by UNESCO to early years education, so it was given to primary schools, you know, as aid, whatever. And we went to the markets where surplus, or in fact maybe even the entire consignment was available to be sold, and we bought these powder pigments and put on our glue, which was a locally produced glue in Nigeria, it's like a PVA, into that and mixed it and made our paintings. Where we didn't have brushes, we painted with sticks, we painted with pallet knives, we painted with knives which we fabricated ourselves. So to a large extent my painting techniques are derived from the reality of that experience at the time when I went to school to uni. When I had the opportunity to paint with a brush on canvas, which was much, much later on after I had graduated. Again, that's when figuration really came into my work. I did figuration for a long while and I've kind of moved into a blend between abstraction and figuration now. Thank you. I've got a few questions for Arthur. Go to get those now before we finish. Again, from Jonak Pala. First, let me congratulate Arthur on his work. I'd like to ask him how he decides on his subject matter and how he collects reference material. Additionally, I'm curious about how long it takes him to complete each canvas and how he determines the scale of each subject. That's a good question. I tend to, the subject matter, I tend to choose on the basis of, first of all, I have used photographs. I've used family photographs or old photographs, initially from my late father's photographs which we found after he passed. And then family photographs that we've taken on holidays. But I tend to do paintings from just images that I find really visually arresting things that interest me that I'm curious about. Sometimes I think that with photographs, you can capture a very special moment that can translate very well into a painting. And as you're actually doing it, it can move away from that. And in a way, that's really where I think something magical happens. And in terms of the scale, I mean, I have found that initially when I, my canvases were quite small. And when you suddenly move to a large canvas, there was a kind of difficulty in the technique that I was using. But the more I started working on the larger canvases, I've sort of become accustomed to it now. So I'm much more used to it. I mean, previously, you know, if you said to me a few years ago that you would do a painting that is almost, you know, two meters by two meters, I would have thought you were joking or something. Now I've actually done it and you know, I'm quite reasonably pleased, quite pleased with the results. So yeah, that's really how I think. But generally I select images that just appeal to me. And perhaps sometimes you have images that can convey a certain mood or feeling and you try to emulate that. Okay. Got another couple of questions for you here. One of them. I don't have a name of the person they're remaining anonymous. How is longevity viewed in an artist's career? And does that determine how their work is seen by gatekeepers of the art world? Maybe it'd be good if both of you gave a brief answer. I'm saying brief because I'm looking at the time. Yeah, well, I asked for longevity. I'm actually a new kid on the block. Well, maybe not kid, but it is something that I've has come to me sort of late, I would say. Although I have made some progress in the last few years. I think that that I think that there's from what I know. And I'm finding out I think that there are issues with the gatekeepers that speak. And I read a little bit about the history and the way that institutions have been a bit coy or reluctant to embrace art by artists of color. Part of it seems to be sometimes because it does not conform to the sort of Western canon, or that they're also they're not able to to really understand what artists are trying to convey. And I think perhaps it should be more their duty to really make sure that they do that. I think that people in the museums and the art these major art galleries should really be engaging a lot more. I don't think it should be all a question of that art from artists of color should conform necessarily to the way the sort of Western canon has has always been. In other words, by that I mean that they allude to a certain standard. And because they do not understand some of this work, that sort of work does not necessarily get exhibited. And so I think that they need to find a way to engage with that for I know that there are very prominent incredibly well established black artists who you know are exhibited widely dying museums and galleries and so forth. But it's very interesting for me to hear Hassan's experience as an artist who has been going for a very long time and to see what what he has encountered and probably at this point I should let Hassan speak because he knows much more about this than I do. Well, in terms of longevity, I think I see my art as being my life. It's not a job. It's something that I will continue to do. And I will have to leave to support doing all the other things I need to do just make sure that I keep making the work. That's the first I have a commitment to the art. That's the first thing my art wants to say things about life about the world of my experience about my history and my family and what my art wants to educate and to set the record straight in many cases. It's a label of love, and it's a deep love. So it's something that would remain I would continue to do it's not something that I'm going to say suddenly. Okay, I'm going to stop painting by time when I retire and then that's it. I don't think artists ever retire. I think you just make work until physically you're not able to continue to make the work or maybe something. That prohibits you from constantly to make. Yeah, I mean, the artist who does that I should say yes you can show your commitment there you are sitting in your studio, freezing, but you're committed to the art of being that cold it doesn't matter. But it's the same with the artist, and I keep forgetting his name but he is still making work conceptually, even though he is, he is disabled and this is the Nigerian artist. Exactly, you're still doing it you're still doing the work and you will still get out and about to spaces. Absolutely. But he's his body will not, he's not letting you know his body that is not working, not allow him to make work or not. Nothing is done. Yeah, yeah, totally amazing. I have another question here which is for both of you to will probably end on this one is a very interesting question. And Mustafa, has anyone written about those strategies that you've just talked about creating art materials and tools. I saw that question, and I thought because it came around about 630 there was when I was speaking so I thought it might be addressed to me. I think both of you can answer. I think is, I think this is what I have seen actually. Okay, so in terms of, you know the work of L not sweet. He uses to make such brilliant, you know, sculpture, and the work of Bruce on the book where he invented the plus to cast technique that he uses that he makes his work with. He uses our diet rapid, which is not a conventional art material to make a low relief from which he edges, right, ingenious work. And many, many people working in that sort of realm re interpreting non convention on standard art materials to make art as a result of the reality of the time, or the economy, or whatever other factor that deemed it necessary. I mean, young print was a very common and popular technique of print making when I was growing up. And many people up to this day still make prints from young. They put a sketch on the arm, put some paint on it and then they print it out on paper. So, um, there's a lot that's been written there isn't one sort of compendium of alternative approaches to making art, if that's what you're asking. I certainly I document my process is part of the doctorate I'm doing at the moment, showing where exactly it is, you know, within my practice, how that economic reality has translated into a new form of artistic expression. So that writing that written work is done. And I'm sure I can pass some of that information to Cadet Jack subsequently she might be able to distribute to you. Thank you. Thank you. I hope once I sufficient. Yes, wonderful. And that ended just a nice point because I've got two lovely comments here that we're going to end on in the chat. And I'm going to just thank you all for being here with participant painting. So from Dotton. We have a message I find I'm sorry Dotton I don't know how to pronounce your surname properly but I'll try Dotton added beauty. I find the painting style, interestingly unique, though all is a medium, you also get the feel of watercolor, giving the style a hybrid effect I totally agree. Yeah. That's so obvious in some of the paintings. It's amazing. Yeah. And it's from Adama. It's so lovely to see the beauty of Sierra Leone's landscapes and histories portrayed in this way. It's very rare to see so many congrats to Arthur. And I think all of our congrats go to you Arthur. I mean, this third, this third collection is just beautiful and amazing. I'm inviting people it is at January one nine five seven in in Hyde Park gate. I've put the details in the chat for people you have until January the 28th. You can get a copy of the of this discussion if you would like to share it with people it will be on the source website. Maybe Professor Wayne doing can tell us maybe where on the website it is because it's a big website and and also it will be one gallery one nine five seven we'll also have a copy of that. Hassan thank you so much for engaging Arthur in this conversation and sharing your wealth of knowledge. Thank you for sharing to, you know, a little bit your your collection online to share with people that's great, especially people who are bored, and thank you everybody for coming to. So, Professor Dooling, perhaps you'd like to sign us out. No, thank you very much to everybody for attending and thank you very much to our speakers for giving us a truly interesting conversation this evening and of course the wonderful images that we saw our congratulations again. And I should say thank you to everybody and have a good evening and stay warm. Thank you everybody. Thank you.