 Good afternoon everybody, or I'm sorry, good morning everybody, I'm just so excited to be here. My name is Susan Goldberg, I'm the editor-in-chief of National Geographic Magazine and the editorial director of National Geographic Partners and we are here today to talk about what everybody's talking about these days, which is gender. Gender roles and how that is playing out around the world and I have two wonderful experts that I will introduce but first I just wanted to point out on the screen this is the January issue of National Geographic and it is called Gender Revolution. There are actually two different covers, this is the one that went to our subscribers and this is the one that we are selling on the newsstand showing a range of people who are describing themselves and describing their gender in different ways, you know, by gender, non-binary, transgender and pretty much everything in between. Gender has really become one of the topics that's getting discussed, you've got people like Caitlyn Jenner bringing this to the forefront but what we try to do in National Geographic Magazine and what I'd like to do today is talk about really how gender plays out in the lives of just ordinary people, not movie stars and evening gowns on magazine covers but just the lives of ordinary kids and how families and teachers and legislatures at all levels of government are trying to deal with this issue. So let me introduce the people I've got here to talk about this. On the far side here, this is Jin Jing, she is sort of the Oprah Winfrey of China. She has a talk show, I think it's just celebrated, it's 100th episode, she gets about 100 million viewers a week in China and in 1995 Jin became the first transgender woman to receive government approval to undergo a gender reassignment surgery and has been living as a woman since 1995 and we'll talk about that today. Right next to me, this is Eric Villian, Eric is a geneticist and pediatrician who directs the UCLA Center for Gender-Based Biology and a lot of his work has focused on intersex people. So I thought I would just start out with Yu Xin and maybe tell us about your journey and your story. Okay, some people may be from different channels to get to my stories. Jin Jing, born in 1967, this year 50 years old, my professional as a dancer, I'm a professional classical ballet dancer since 9 years old as a young boy and in the 70s that's why people asking where did you receive all the dance training in the Chinese military because in China adopted system from 50s from Soviet Union, best dancer, best athlete, all training by the military. So 9 years old, I was chosen by the government and put him in the military dance school, start my dance career. I'm still dancing. Today I'm here, Thursday night I'll be dancing in Singapore. Oh, you're still dancing? I'm still dancing. I have my dance company. Also 1999, I found the first modern dance company in China. Also before I changed my sex, 1988, before China have no contemporary dance, no modern dance. Under American China exchange program, I was sending by the government to United States to learning modern dance with all the great masters like Martha Graham, Paul Taylor, and Nicolas. So also same time I discovered the world of modern dance and same time I discovered myself, my gender. I know myself clearly I should be a woman when I was 6 years old, a child. I have all the sisters, 4 years older than me and that time I looked at my sister and I said something wrong with me but I don't know what it is but I keep this quietly. Then luckily I love the stage but dance choose me, I become a stage person as a dancer. So through the dance I discovered myself more and more and more. When I was 19, went to United States learning modern dance, then I decided, okay, now I have to become myself, change myself, find the right time, become a woman who I am. So I found 19 years old until 28. I wait. For nine years every day I ask myself a question, are you ready? Are you sure you are the woman? You are yourself? Then I'm positive. Even today a lot of people ask me, during the whole 28 years in the male's world, are you frustrated? I said no. I'm not frustrated. I just confused. I don't know when will be happened. I just waiting for the moment. So then 28 years I can take full responsibility to myself then I did a change in China in Beijing. Of course in 1995, sex change in Beijing in China is a big taboo. Besides of that I was the first modern dancer of China. Best male dancer, become a best female dancer. It's too much for China. Too much, that time it's too much. But I think, okay, I admit this. People ask me why you go back to China to sex change instead of in Europe. That time I already work in Europe in Belgium, Brazil. Then I said somehow I'm a very suspicious person. I want, first life my mother gave me to Chinese. Second time I gave myself a birth, still need to China. So I went back to Beijing. I did my change. So that was 1995 and then since then you have remained in the public eye. Yes. Then I constantly challenging the Chinese society. After that I found the first modern dance troupe which was private owned without any government subsidized modern dance company. And after that 2000 I from Beijing I moved to Shanghai. Then adopted three often. I become a single mother with three kids. That's also challenging for Chinese society. Transgender, best male dancer, become a female dancer. Find the first modern dance company. And that's why I quickly made my stories. Then year 2000, then I moved to Beijing to Shanghai. I talked to my friend. I said one day if China TV now have a talk show I'll be the talk show person. After 15 years I did it. 2015 I launched my talk show in China. Two years ago. Just like Susan said. It's a top view talk show in China. So many, but I'm still considering myself as a dancer and actress. I'm still dancing on stage with my dance company. Also every week I'm acting on stage as a theater performer. So this thing's changing. And 2004 I met my husband. 2005 I married to a German gentleman who's sitting there behind with me. Yes, we are happily married and with three children. Then after one year we get divorced. Very tricky story. Because I'm adopted three children. I need to put all the kids under my name. But with four marriage it doesn't work. Only way I come back to my single mother position then I divorce with him. Put all my kids on my name. But you're still together. We're still together. That's good. Love always there. We don't care about the papers. I'm beginning to feel like Oprah myself here. Yes, yes. All right. So, but Eric let me. Stories. So let me ask you. This is an amazing journey. You are working with families and kids and studying what's going on all the time. What do you do when there's a six year old child? Like this is Avery Jackson. She's nine years old in this picture. Ever since she was four she said I'm a girl. And as you can see her quote there is the best thing about being a girl is now I don't have to pretend to be a boy. So here's a young person who knew very, very early on who she was. What do you say? Right. Well it's of course very difficult because you come like myself in a sense as an outsider to these children and this family. They're living it. I'm caring for them. I've been, I'm pediatrician. I care for children who are born intersex. Also caring for children who are, who have gender nonconformity. Tell people what intersex is. Or intersex means just that they're born with genitals that you can't tell whether they're boys or girls. And those situations happen much more often than we think they do. It's about 0.5 to 1% of the population that has some degree of atypicality of the genitals. So it's quite frequent. Nobody talks about it. But it's something that happens a lot in families all over the world. And we'll get back to that in a minute. So the question you're asking Susan about what to do, especially when the children are saying, well, I am a girl if it's a natal boy or I am a boy if it's a natal girl. The difficulty is to actually not necessarily go on with the story and say, well, of course, you are a girl. I think what we know, and then I'm taking sort of the scientist perspective, not denying the individual experiences. But if you look at what happens to these children, most of these boys who say I am a girl, as they go through puberty, at some point, most of them, not all of them, but most of them will desist, meaning they will not say anymore I am a girl. They will be comfortable with being a boy, and they will turn out to be gay men. Often effeminate gay men, but they will be comfortable with their gender identity. Depending on there has been more than 10 studies about that, showing that that's sort of the natural history. That's the path. Although there are a lot of people in the transgender community who would disagree very strongly with what you just said. They would disagree because they're saying, well, that has not been my experience. True, they might be part of these 10% to 20% who actually persisted in, absolutely. Yes, I do have a confused time between 12 years old until 15, 16. At that time, I confused myself as maybe I'm a homosexual. I'm gay. Then later on, I discovered no, completely different feelings. Then I still come back to myself at like 6 years old. I say, I should be the girl. I should be a woman. Then that's where, from 19 years old, it's very clear. And in China, was there a lot of, I would say, homophobic pressure, a lot of pressure against gay people? It's funny things. Homosexual issue, transgender issue, this kind of idea culturally. Actually, in China, culturally, we are existing many, many hundred years ago. We just don't talk about it. Recently, I think after China opened to the world, I think from the 80s, I can get a lot of information on Western world. And we discovered that a lot, so many things in Western world. Everything must be labelized. Gay, homosexual, lesbian, everything. Before China, we have, we don't talk about it. Everything on the table, let it be how they can. But not on the tables, above the table, people get a little bit excited to talk about these issues. I mean, looking at what happens in different countries, it seems that in countries where there is a lot of repression against homosexuality, the rate of transgender individuals actually increases. A good example is countries like Iran, where young gay men get hanged if they come out as homosexual. Not all of them, of course, but it's been sort of a public display that this is a sin, this is bad. And sort of one solution out of this is if they do change gender, then it becomes a much more accepted behavior. Because now the real sin being same-sex sexual relation, now that it is not happening anymore, because they've switched gender. So it's interesting because it conflicts a little bit with this idea that I am a girl when they're little boys. It's just social circumstances push people in one direction rather than another. So just to finish in the question of what to do when those children come, my tendency is to say, well, if you're a little boy, you can do anything you want that looks like feminine, stereotypically feminine. When you're a little girl, you can do anything you want that looks like what boys would typically do. You can wear a dress if you're a little boy, you can do ballet, et cetera. But that does not necessarily mean that you are a girl. And very often children conflate how they behave and who they are. And it's very, very difficult for a child. Well, I think we conflate that too. I mean, if you look at how society is, your gender identity and your sexual orientation are often conflated. I mean, sexual orientation is who you're attracted to and gender identity is who you are. And the picture I just put up. Now these are identical twins. And this comes out of one of the stories we did. This is Caleb on the left and Emmy on the right. And they live in Massachusetts. When they were born, you really couldn't tell them apart. Just a few months ago, Emmy, the girl, underwent gender reassignment surgery. And so you've got these identical twins who really have chosen these very, very different paths. Do you see something like that very often? Right. So we see that for sexual orientation. And we see that for gender identity. Roughly, when one twin is gay or transgender, the other twin will be gay or transgender only in about 50% of the cases. So that's kind of interesting because they're genetically identical. And yet the outcome is completely different. You can say, oh, well, gender identity is influenced by things that are other than genetic, than biology. I would ask, Jen, what do you think about that? I mean, where do you think? All right, so you always felt like you were wrong. Yes, but I think that we have three gender issues for each person. When you're born, the biological gender was your parents' gift to you as a boy or girl. That's biological, and you cannot change. And after that, I think slowly you grown up by all the information you're putting on the wall. Then you start thinking you're psychologically, you commit yourself, are you a woman or a man? And also, third gender is from society. You want society to take you as a man or woman. I think for me, I'm thinking this way. Then I put myself, of course, biologically born as a boy. But the inside, the psychological inside is my sexual orientation. Also, I want society to look at me as a woman. So these two against the one, I'm very clear for that. And also, Chinese culture is, when the kids are young, before five years old, Chinese family don't identify too much about the kids of male or female. They can play both. The girl, the boy can dress like girl, the parents and girls are cute, sweet. And the girl dresses naughty, fine. From after that, getting a school, society has a much more identical eyes on the kids. You are a boy, you should behave like a boy. You girls should slowly make the gap. But before that, I was a family take that. I was very lucky. When I was learning dancing nine years old until 15, one of my best teacher, she's still almost 85 years old. People, by the time I was a young boy, after I finished my boys' training, I escaped to the girls' room. I learned girls' movement. And everybody's thinking, why is this boy learning the girl's steps? Because I was fascinated by the girl's steps. And the teacher should just leave him alone. This boy, you have no gender clear up yet. Just leave him alone, give him a free. I was so thankful for my teacher. She just let me go. Then I was learning boy's steps and girl's steps, everything. Then when I decided to change, then my teacher said, see, that's it, she found herself. That's so interesting. I mean, and certainly for those of us in Western cultures, a little surprising. I mean, I think things have changed. But still, don't you think, Eric, that most kids are, if you're a boy, you're supposed to be acting like a boy. And if you're a girl, you're supposed to act like a girl. Right. Although there is much more tolerance for little girls to act like boys. Because it's your time. Which is actually encouraged. Although you don't hear that as much now as you used to. Sorry, that is not 2002. I did a dance piece with a German artist. We did a duet called Person to Person. In this piece, we talk about which movement certainly belonged to the boy. Which movement belonged to the woman? That's why in Chinese culture, after a girl becomes six, seven years old, the family teaches the girl how to sit properly like this. Your leg, you're not like a spelly your leg. But before that, fine, let it go. Let it natural. But after that, from the movement gesture, the girl must behave like this. And they get most of the space for the boys. But what we find from a biological perspective is that the way people behave in a more stereotypical feminine fashion, or in a more stereotypical masculine fashion, is more likely to be pushed by some biological determinants. Meaning that there is some biology. Nothing is ever 100%. There is some biology pushing girls or boys to behave differently. The reason we know that is because when we look at children born in intersex, and we can look at what's different from, say, a girl that was born after being exposed to very high levels of male hormone testosterone. In the womb. In the womb, OK. So there is a condition called congenital adrenal hyperplasia, CH, in which that happens. These girls are born girls. They're raised as girls. And you can look at their toy pleb preference, for instance, which is a classic psychological test. They will spend much, much more time with male types of toys. You can say, oh, well, that's all society that just basically says this is a male toy or this is a female toy. Very true. However, if you do the experiment with little monkeys, young monkeys, male monkeys, and female monkeys, and you give them a little, which I had a picture to show that, a little car versus a little cuddly teddy bear, the female monkeys will cuddle the teddy bears, and the male monkeys statistically. So there is something biological there. You can say, no, no, no, it's all society, but they turn. I think those of us who have been around children enough, you do see many boys gravitating to different kinds of toys and games than girls. And where that comes from, I'm not sure. So the gender role has some biological determinant. The gender identity, on the other hand, is much more fluid. It's much more complicated. There is much more social determinants to that. OK, so let's talk a little bit about that. And this picture I just put up, this is taken in Samoa. And this is a group of people called the Fafafine, and they really are considered a third gender. And there is a number of places around the world where there is a third gender. I think even in certain Native American tribes, there's a third gender, small. So how does that come about? Yeah, what you're saying is very true. The Berdash in the Native Americans, the Fafafines in the Samoa, the Mouches in some regions of Mexico, like Oaxaca. So they're all around the world. You have this sort of third gender. What happens is, I don't see it personally as that different from what happens in the rest of the world, in the sense that there are some boys or girls, but in most cases, it's boys who behave in a more stereotypically feminine fashion. But what happens in these societies that are, in fact, quite tolerant, they are sort of considered as some kind of a protected different gender. And they just seem differently. And they're being labeled by the society as a third gender. But I don't think there is that much difference between the young boy Fafafine in the Samoa who are behaving like a girl will become then, they will wear dresses. But their whole lives beyond childhood. Their whole lives beyond childhood. I'm not sure it's that different from what happened to... I don't know, Jin, what do you think? I mean, do you think there's a third gender or...? I think the third gender idea, everybody has it. Then how much the space in society gives you space to developing it. Even for women, everybody, you're doing certain things in the male's way. Even today, when I'm directing a show with 200 artists on stage, the way I'm talking and people say, oh my God, she still behaved like a man. I said, no. I said, give me a break. That's the quality. What do you mean behave like a man? I said, I need the quality to get in 200 artists working together. Who said that kind of street forward belong to males? But then certain part, with my husband, with my kids, a mother of three, and people said, oh my God, she's, that's a... which one is the real her? I said, we're me as I know. But in society, we perform at different stage, different platform, that's developing it. And kids like this, of course, through the dancing, through the behavior, she feel, or she feel more comfortable with himself. That's what the developing become a third gender. Maybe biologically male or female, but psychologically, what's driven to behave and so let the society accept it, that's more strongly appeared. Now the society must open and tolerant, like in China, the homosexual. If you don't harm other people, you don't harm the society. And people just let it be, just be yourself. You don't do the outrageous things against other people's, the life value or the attitude. That's fine, yeah. So in China, you think people are getting more accepting of a range of, or of a gender fluidity, if you will? Much better than the 30 years ago, before people were sensitive. But also, I think both way, in the way we are, much more tolerant. But in another way, the space, much more narrow, I can give you an example. Before China opened, before the 80s, we don't talk about the homosexual, don't talk about gender issues. Everybody has to stay there. And you can often see two boys holding their hands or walking on the street. Even you can see two soldiers on the vacation, holiday time, two soldiers holding their hands. What comes, people think they are good friends, they are buddies. Now these days, you see a two boy holding their hands, people immediately say, are they gay or whatever. This kind of label lies, actually makes life much more sensitive and complicated. Before the two boys come home, after hanging out, staying in one room, parents have no second thought. Now, if your boy to stay in one room, the Chinese parents say, oh my God, what's the matter with my boy, just sleep with his body in the room? No, no, no. This kind of sensitive issue become very relevant. So I think that's a society changing in the two direction. One way is more uptight. One way, okay, more understandable. Oh, very interesting, very interesting. So this picture that I just put up, now this person, Hunter Keith, who's 17 years old was a born female, assigned female at birth, but always felt like a boy since the fifth grade. And by seventh grade, he told his friends that, and by eighth grade, he told his parents that he was a boy. And just two weeks before this picture was taken, Hunter had his breasts removed, and now he can skateboard without his shirt on. And he is a really interesting young man who's made, I think, a pretty big decision at a young age. When is the right age if somebody is going to make this kind of decision? Jin waited till she was 28. This person has waited to 17 to at least start down that road. Is there a right age when you think you can do that? Well, I appreciate what Jin said about waiting. I think, I mean, I'm not going to come up with a number because I think it would be silly. But certainly, I think sometimes too young is too young and there is a tendency in certain parts of the United States or in Europe to now transition, socially transition these boys and girls very early if they just express something that's a little gender non-conforming. Although isn't the rule persistent, insistent and consistent, right? Those are the, if the kid says, I'm a girl or I'm a boy, persistent, insistent, consistent. Yeah, but for, that's right. The question is, as I said earlier, you can say, you can do whatever you want. That doesn't necessarily mean that you are a boy or a girl. Let's just wait and see. So now the problem with the, I get a lot of critics for this attitude, which is to say, oh, what about the suffering, the psychological suffering? And it's a complicated balance. I like to be sort of in the middle and maybe piss off everyone. But it's, because at the end of the day, the question is, if you socially transition early these kids, it's a life that's a little bit more complicated. It's a life that we will have body modification. You will have hormone replacement therapy or hormone therapy for the rest of your life. If you wait till puberty, you say. Right. So there are, it's a, there is a medicalization of this. It's just, it's problematic, in a sense. So you can for, as I said, the majority, if you just let it go and wait until you agree to do these changes, maybe around puberty at least, then there is a decent chance for the vast majority that there will be no need for actual transition. And so it's without all these body modifications that are significant and irreversible. And so I just put up another picture. Now this is Trinity. And when she was four, she basically stopped talking and started chewing on her boy clothes. She was born a boy and said that she wanted to cut off her penis. And her parents were understandably alarmed and took her to a therapist. And the therapist said to them, do you want a happy little girl or a dead boy? And so Trinity's mother, who is a fierce advocate, and they ended up putting her on puberty blockers. She's now 12 years old. So, and apparently she is the first minor in Delaware to be covered for this treatment by Medicaid. It does seem like this is working its way into society. It is working its way. There is use of puberty blockers that have not been looked at in long-term outcomes. I mean, there is a lot of, I think we're playing with a lot of dangerous things without actually doing the appropriate research to see who at the end of the day, because that's what matters to me. Who's gonna have a good quality of life depending on the choices that are made. And I think there is a lot of political push to say, yeah, okay, the child says, I'm a ex, then let's just go this way without, and if the parents start questioning it, they're just seeing as bad parents. And I think the reality is a little bit more complicated. Oh, it's incredibly complicated. I mean, one of the things that we've found is that this is certainly not gonna go away as a topic. There was just a poll done of 1,000 millennials, and half of them, half of the young people polled said that they thought that gender was a spectrum, and a certain number of people are gonna fall outside that binary boy-girl. And so if that's the mindset of millennials, or a lot of millennials, then it seems to me this is gonna be a big obstacle. And also, another thing is the social influence. Because I clearly remember when I do the section surgery, another young boy also took the section next door. I asked him, why you do this? Are you sure yourself? He said, yeah, I think after I become a woman, life must be easier. I said, what do you mean life must be easier? Could be tougher. He said, no, I just marry to a man, and I can dress beautifully, and that's it. Oh yeah. Then I said, no, it's not simple like that. That's why a lot of, some of the cases in China, after they did the sex change, actually they are gay, psychologic. They think it's become a woman, easy to get in touch with a man. All life must be easier. It's a complete wrong concept of this as a social influence. And after that, some people cannot take it, they can be suicidal later. And this kind of case, very often. And that is one of the distressing things of the higher rates of suicide, of violence against transgender people. And that is this picture right here. I think they are far more likely to suffer domestic violence, violence on the street, sexual assault, every witch kind. This is a transgender person who has suffered violence and I'm looking, I don't have my caption, but I think this was taken in, not the United States, but go ahead. No, I was gonna say, just reinforce what you were saying that there's a lot of discrimination against transgender individuals. Jamaica, sorry. There is a lot of bullying at school. There is a lot, there is increased mental health issues, depression, there is also a number of health risks that are taken from addiction, cigarette smoking, HIV, in larger American cities, the rate of HIV in Latina and African American transgender population is 50%. So it's very, very high in the transgender population in big inner cities. Even in healthcare settings, there's a lot of discrimination. There's some doctors would say, go somewhere else, I don't know anything about this. So there is a, it's not an easy life. Employment discrimination is extraordinarily high. Only 16 states of the United States and the District of Columbia ban employment discrimination against transgender individuals. So it's a small minority. And you've got a really patchwork of laws across the world as to whether people are even allowed to have operations to transition. This person, this is Trina and this is taken in Jamaica and she's a sex worker, but she has been attacked as you can see with acid, knives, a machete and a gun. And this is not unfortunately atypical for what can happen to transgender people. But in my case, I was at the day I out of the hospital. I got a lot of a disagreement and prejudice. I know that. But that's why I have a very famous sentence in China. I talk to people, I say, if you understand what I'm doing, I appreciate it. I say, if you don't understand, I say, forget it, next life. I think that's the job. And also, same time I remember when I come out of the hospital, one of the well-known filmmaker, direct film director, he looked at me and one day he's talking spontaneously without the intention to say, how come a person like you are living so well? That's the kind of sentence. I said, why not? I asked him directly, why not? A person like me, and what's wrong with me? Then that's why it actually gave me a lot of hope to encourage myself, make it better. That's why 10 years ago, when I said I opened a talk show in China, everybody think I don't dream about it. Jinxing, which your background, transgender, forget it, this China never happened. I said, wait, will be happened. So that's when today I've been most popular TV host in China, then I convinced with my dedication to life. And that's a good for a lot of young people. People are asking me, do I involve any activities about homosexuality, which I said, no. I said, the attitude to turning to this already give a lot of young people. All kind of chosen life attitude deserve equal respect. That's why in China today everybody talk, okay. And a lot of young people, China look at me and say, I make my own decision without harm, nobody, no society should not deserve any equal respect. That's the issue we're raising up in China today. But you can't, you don't think that you could, say talk about this young person. This is Jonathan, who is eight, who identifies as both a boy and a girl at the same time since he's been two and a half. And this is taken in a place that is much more accepting than the last picture that we saw. This is taken at California's Bay Area Rainbow Day Camp where kids can safely express their gender identities. And here he is pretending he's a unicorn as well. But that would not be something that you could talk about on your show that would not be. No, in China, that's why I was celebrating with my talk show team. Two weeks ago, we did 100 episodes in China. We have a talk, a lot of the social issue about the relation, education, kids, family, emotion. This we can talk a lot, a lot of barrier I cannot touch. It's very sensitive. But I think how we can survive, I was amazed. And also, Chinese TV industry very demanding. Usually internationally, like opera talk show went to like 40 minutes, 35 minutes. But in my talk show, I have to hold on to 70 minutes every Wednesday night. That's a lot of information to discuss, talk about it. But the interesting things, you have seen so many things can talk about it and a lot of discriminations. But the Chinese Twitter, we don't have a Chinese Twitter which is called a micro block, they're sending messages. Every day, no, I'm every day, I have 11 million followers on my Chinese Twitter. It's a lot more than me. No, but because of the populations. They're talking this like a soft media. You tell things through the media, through the talk show, everything. That's why people give a lot of idea about what we can talk about it today. But it's very sensitive, it's tough. It is very sensitive. So speaking of talking, I did wanna open this up and I've got a couple of other questions that we got here from a Facebook live session. But just wondering if there are any questions here from the audience. Oh wait, the microphone is coming to you. Hang on one second, if you could just say who you are. Hi, Helen Joyce, I'm the international editor at The Economist. Thank you so much for a very sensitive and interesting discussion about these issues. I have a sort of a sort of fundamental question that I'd like to ask both the panelists and also you having put together this great package for National Geographic. There seems to me to be a fundamental contradiction between the idea that gender is so important and so binary that somebody might need to actually take significant medication and also have surgery to switch from one bucket to the other, so to speak. And this idea that you mentioned from millennials whose 50% of them say gender is a spectrum in which case we shouldn't need to be trying so hard to match our body to our behavior to our psychology. Well, that's a great point and I think the millennials have it right in this case because I think a lot of parts of the transgender movement is in fact seeing the world as very binary. I mean if you look at the cover of Vanity Fair with Caitlyn Jenner, this is a picture of a woman that does not exist anymore. Who has the time to spend an entire afternoon to just paint your nails and I mean she's beautiful but this is an image of a woman from the 50s who was just laying on her couch and doing absolutely nothing but make herself up. And so this is sort of, I think a lot of feminists have a problem with this made up image of women that is just a passe. So there is a push for binary in the transgender movement that actually goes against a lot of the feminist ideas. So. Gender as a spectrum is probably, and it's more like gender role as a spectrum. I think it's, you know, it's more, I think we should go to more of a post-identity world. It doesn't matter. Well, you- And that's what the millennials are saying. Well, you agree with Miley Cyrus actually. So she says, and she's 22, right? She says, I don't relate to what people would say defines a girl or a boy, she said in this interview without magazine a couple of years ago. She said, I think that's what I had to understand. Being a girl isn't what I hate. It's the box that I get put into, which is actually a very interesting, interesting thing. I mean, it would sort of seem simpler or better, a better world if it were more- I think that- Less judgmental, less labels as you were saying. Yes, I think label should be put on the side and you must feel comfortable. And in all these days, I think the union sexual idea concept, I think it worked better in all the different areas. I think of people, how do you define yourself? Or you go through the heart-changing sort of medical, or you just stay yourself, but you clearly behave who you want to behave. This is most important. Then you want to dress a family, you want to dress like a man. That's what it's acceptable if you're comfortable with. But I think in all these days society, we have a still, certain, even all the magazines, TV, try to propagate all the things that what woman should be like this, is this one beautiful woman, one kind of type. And men should be like this kind of masculine. This kind of thing still try to, people try to find the balance. You know, I would just say two things. In putting together this issue, one of the things that we did at the very beginning of the issue was put in a glossary because it has become so difficult to even have a conversation about gender because no one even knows the terms to use. And everybody's afraid of saying something offensive. And what we tried to do was arm people with, here are the words, here are words you can use to hopefully spark a thoughtful conversation. The other thing I'd add is that our photographer who took this picture is named Robin Hammond. And you know, he went all over the world. He interviewed 89 year olds about the role that gender played in their lives. This is in eight countries all over. This is Avery and she's in Kansas City. And she was the only transgender kid that he talked to. But he's gotten a lot of pushback for this picture because people say, oh, you dressed her up in all pink to show she's a girl. Well, she came to the door with pink hair, pink outfit. I mean, this is her choice. But I do think, so here's a boy who's now a girl. And I think she must want to wear what she thinks is a real girly outfit, right? Pink everywhere. And that was the picture that Robin got. But of course, it could have been a boy who does everything that girls typically do and remaining in boys' clothes. Why is there this need to dress up in pink? Well, this was the choice. Okay, can I ask for any other questions or thoughts? Yes, ma'am. Wait for the microphone if you could. Hi, I'm Sabine Bauer from Germany. I'm also a mother of three and I also have twins. So that was an interesting picture for me as well, even though mine are not identical. I have a question. How important is parents' influence? I mean, you mentioned this one boy who told the friends first and then the parents later. And how supportive are the parents? In your case, Xinxing, I was interested. How supportive are your parents, even though you were older when you decided to change and is that the very most important thing for you or was it just your own decision or were your parents also very helpful? Great question. That's a very lucky point of view. I'm a lucky one. I said I was joking about this. I'm a fully respected copyright. Who created me originally is my parents. I only ask their permission. If these two people in this planet no problem, I have no problem with other people. So I talk to my mother. My mother always denied it because people asking your boy 28 years old, never have a girlfriend. What's the matter with her? He's a gay. My mother said no, no, no. He only pretend to his dancing art. And one day I come up, I said I want to change, become a woman. My mother didn't shock at all. My mother just said, are you sure? I said yes. He said, she just said whatever man and woman, you're always my kids. I just want you to stay healthy and continue dancing. You're dancing so beautifully. I said I try my best. I was worried about my father. Very typical traditional Chinese military officer. I talked to him. I said, your boy will become a girl. My father sat in for one minute and took out a cigarette for one cigarette. And he looked at me. He said, finally matched. Congratulations. Wow. I said, why? You see that? He said, when you're young, I would look at you, you are a little boy, but you behave like a little girl. I was wondering after boy, but he behave like little girl. After 28 years, you find yourself, congratulations. Even my father went to the local police station, changed my identity card. Tell them, my boy become my girl. And the local police station, no, no, no, never happened. She said, yes, history is done now. Change it. What an amazing story. So I was very lucky. Even today, my mother is very fully supportive of what I am. At the end, my mother said very good sentence. She said, no matter boy or girl, you're always my kids. We just want you to be happy. This is your life. I think that's it. That's speak a lot about the parents. So with my kids, I adopted three children. And with such huge background mother, and now they are grown up by just openly. Since then, they are three or four years older. They know exactly the three kids adopted. And the mother was a man. And my son asked me, so why you become my mother? I said, if I don't become a woman, I cannot be your mother. The society doesn't allow it, because I love you so. I was waiting for you too long. I have to become a mother, then I can have you. Then fine, my three kids grown up beautifully and open up. Even when to school, people said, oh my god, you mother so famous. You know, she was a man. And my son said, so what? Mind your own business. Very interesting. Eight years old, have a strong sentences. I think that makes life now beautiful. So Eric, you get the last word here on the role of parents in this and just. Parents play a tremendous role. I mean, they're the key to success of the outcome. There's no question about it. On whatever the outcome is. On whatever the outcome is. So but supportive, loving, non-judgmental, is that what you're? That's true. But they don't, again, they don't necessarily have to just go with everything their child says. If little Johnny says, I want to eat 10 pieces of chocolate before dinner, they'll say no. So I think parents still have, still put some boundaries. But they still may be loving. They have to be loving. Well, that is where we're going to leave a very complicated, complicated set of issues. Thank you all so much for coming, and thank you to our panel. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah.