 What is up everybody this is Chris from the Rewired Soul where we talk about the problem but focus on the solution and if you're new to my channel my channel is all about mental health so if you're someone like me actively trying to improve your mental and emotional well-being make sure you subscribe and ring that notification bell and boy do I have a treat for you today. All right some of you know some of you don't know I have a podcast and lately I've been interviewing a lot of really cool people and I just had the honor and the pleasure of interviewing Laurie Gottlieb all right she's the author of the best-selling book maybe you should talk to someone all right this has been a best-seller since last year it's still selling like crazy she has this book being adapted into a tv show that's being produced by Eva Longoria she just started a podcast all sorts of stuff anyways I interviewed her she's gonna talk a little bit about that but in this interview we talk a lot about the therapeutic process who needs therapy when's the right time to stop therapy medications all sorts of stuff all right so this podcast will be out this Wednesday but I want to put it up on the youtube channel because I know it'll help a lot of people out there so without further ado here's my conversation with Laurie Gottlieb. Hello Laurie how are you doing today? Hi I'm doing well how are you doing? I am fantastic it is an amazing day um but yeah for for my audience I've given you an amazing intro but for my audience uh who isn't familiar with your work can you tell them a little bit about who you are in this amazing book that you wrote maybe you should talk to someone what's that about? Right so yeah I am a psychotherapist and I write the weekly Dear Therapist column for the Atlantic um I am uh launching right now a new podcast produced by Katie Kirk for iHeartRadio called Dear Therapists with another therapist Guy Winch we both did our TED talks and went through the TED world and uh we're very excited to bring that to everybody and I wrote a book called maybe you should talk to someone and the book brings people into my therapy room to help them see what I have the privilege of saying but most people don't which is the human condition and all of its beauty all of its struggle but also all of its joy all of the heroic moments um all the ways that we grow and transform and how hard it is to do that um so I follow four main patients in the book but then there's a fifth patient and the fifth patient is me as I go through my own therapy with my therapist yeah oh my god and I binged your book I usually read books a little bit more like kind of educational research and stuff but you're an amazing storyteller and I I was just I was hooked and so let me ask you this I I assume that you you know you have a ton of clients and everything how did you decide which stories you were going to follow um in your book I don't want to spoil it for anybody who hasn't read but I I think you did a great job covering a range of topics especially kind of guiding someone through the end of life type deal you had somebody who was struggling with cancer um but yeah how did you did you purposely kind of get a few different topics and people to cover in your book yeah I mean I think that there were so many when you talked about story a minute ago I think what I do all day is I listen to stories and like I said in my TED talk I feel like even though my job title is therapist I feel like my job title should be editor because everybody comes in with a story and we're all unreliable narrators of our lives we tell stories in a particular way we leave things out we minimize certain things we emphasize other things and often those faulty narratives keep us stuck we think they protect us we think we're putting forth the version of the story that serves us but actually if we can't fill out the story if we can't see other perspectives if we can't understand that maybe we're being the victim and not the protagonist in our story you know a lot of our stories are about being trapped um by people by circumstances if we can't find the agency in our stories we can't move forward we can't make changes we can't um change our role so in terms of the stories that I chose for the book um there were so many because I'm fascinated by all of the stories and and you know of course I was before I was a therapist I worked in film and television I then I went to medical school then I became a journalist so I've approached story from a lot of different angles and I think that when I thought about what stories I wanted to include in the book I wanted the people to seem very different from one another on the surface so different ages different genders different um stages of development psychologically different kinds of problems so you you mentioned the young newlywed who came back from her honeymoon and was diagnosed with cancer and then you also have um you know a woman in her 20s who keeps hooking up with the wrong guys including someone from the waiting room I don't mean in the waiting room our office is definitely not that exciting but um but she meets him in the waiting room and you know she so there are a lot of sort of I think comedic moments um because as human beings we're all ridiculous and I think we're so we take ourselves so seriously but we need to be able to laugh at ourselves and laugh at the human position as well so um everybody seems very different I say all five of us because I include myself as one of the patients and yet we are so similar underneath it all so when people start reading the book the feedback that I've gotten has been that they thought they had nothing in common with maybe this patient or that patient and they realized they have something in common with every single patient absolutely that's that's something that um that I really had to come to terms with because when on my own sobriety journey like the first time I went to like 12-step meetings and stuff I was like I can't relate to any of these people like I haven't lost my wife or house or anything like that right and when you start to really listen to other people's stories it's not even so much for me it's not even so much about those specific experiences right but it's not it's not about yeah it's it's not that you have had the same experiences it's that underneath it all the the same questions feelings um you know these these ideas that we all have about you know what does it mean to love and be loved and how do I deal with mistakes that I've made or how do I deal with regret or why you know what are my blind spots because we all have them and when you can see somebody else unable to look at their own blind spots right or to be trapped in in these patterns where they keep ending up in the same place over and over and over kind of like you know if a fight breaks out in every bar you're going to it might be you we don't think that about ourselves we can see it in other people um but I think that we see ourselves most clearly through the lens of other people's stories because it's one thing if someone says to you hey you're like this or you do this or this is keeping you stuck and our our instinct is to say no I'm not no I don't that's not me but if you read about somebody else you start to say oh I'm kind of a little like that yeah yeah absolutely and kind of going back to uh something that you said you know just about like if you go to every bar you go to and a fight breaks out maybe it's you um something that I absolutely love and we're on the same page with this this something that helped me on my own you know recovery and mental health journey is that that personal responsibility and you talk about that quite a bit like uh I think it was like in the first chapter where you know we have to start looking at ourselves and because you know I I've worked with many many drug addicts and alcoholics and other people with mental health issues and we have this instant it's almost like our ego's way of protecting ourselves like oh well my mom did this my dad did this my husband or wife or boyfriend or girlfriend or friends or you know my boss did this so can you talk a little bit about the importance of just you know that introspection and saying like what what is my part in this how does that play a role in the therapeutic process yeah so when most people come to therapy what they'll say and however whatever words they choose is I want something to change I'm not happy with the way things are I want something to change but then when you dig a little deeper what you find out is what they want to change is someone else or something else someone else or something else to change they they're not necessarily saying I want to change I want the things around me to change and so you know what I you know one thing that I remember when I was um when I was an intern one of my supervisors said before diagnosing someone with depression make sure they aren't surrounded by assholes right so so yeah I mean I'm not disputing the fact that there are definitely difficult people out there and there are difficult circumstances for sure but at the same time how do we respond to those people or circumstances what choices do we have and so I think once we start looking at our choices we start to say oh I can change what I do I might not be able to change what somebody else does but I can change what I do and when I change what I do I can influence what they do because if you start doing something different they're going to have to do something different too because they're getting a different stimulus right then then your normal dance that you do people are often engaged in this dance we're like one person says this the other person says this they do this they have the same fight the same argument over and over and over and I think when you mentioned people and their parents um you know I think what happens is that people uh are almost trying to get their parents to do something different now even when they're adults to make up for what they didn't get as a child and that doesn't lead you anywhere it's it's like so a lot of people are kind of like the argument that they have in their head is I won't change until you mom or dad treat me differently uh you know from when I was eight and it's like you know we don't realize that as adults we are free but we don't accept our freedom because with freedom comes responsibility going back to responsibility and so if we choose to be free we realize oh I'm responsible for my life now and I can't blame mom or dad or my partner or my boss or anyone else I get to choose and I'm responsible for choosing absolutely and and I can I can speak to that from from personal experience like I am very fortunate I was fortunate enough to have a sponsor when I first got sober and he just beat it into my head just drilled it right in where he said Chris it's a lot easier for you to change you than it is to change the rest of the world yeah and I and I hated that because I wanted to wait for other people to change like don't you see how you are affecting me don't you see I'm reacting you know because you're treating me this way and today I've been sober seven and a half years and my son's mom and I we have the most amazing beautiful relationship she's remarried has another son I have you know my beautiful girlfriend but we co-parent just this incredible way and I try to teach people like the the only reason for that is because of all the text messages I never sent her right all the angry ones I wrote them out and and I would actually like send them to like a friend I'd be like hey do you think I'm justified in saying this and I really try to argue my point but um because I knew like I knew intellectually like it wasn't getting go anywhere by by reacting in that way but just like you said too when I started to change the people around me started to change right because we don't we feel justified in in fueling that fire in retaliating and in fighting back and everything like that but we don't understand how it's just making things worse so right well often often we want to be we want the other person to see and hear and understand our perspective and we feel so unseen and unheard by them but the way that we're trying to get seen and heard is counterproductive it's kind of like if you're yelling at someone or if you're accusing them of something they can't hear you they can't see you they feel attacked but if you can imagine their perspective and that's you know what the book is all about um if you can imagine their perspective it doesn't mean you agree with their perspective by the way and it doesn't mean that they aren't mistreating you so you know you've got to be able to hold those ideas at the same time that I don't like the way they're treating me and maybe I'm doing something that exacerbates the situation maybe I'm doing something that that impacts them in a way where they treat me this way and so how can I act in a way that aligns with my own values that aligns with my own way of kindness of generosity even if you don't necessarily agree with the other person usually the other person they're not going to have like a personality transplant they're still going to be them but usually the conflict will de-escalate absolutely and something I wanted to ask you about too because I think it's so huge and a lot of I don't think a lot of people understand this about therapy but you you talk about like especially you know through your own personal experience with your therapist you talk about having that kind of clear end in sight right and you discuss like you know helping patients like you know become their own therapists and come up with their own solutions not just spoon feeding them answers and everything like that and yeah I just I don't think a lot of people realize that therapy is not meant to always be like this forever deal so how do you set that up with like a new client do you have like a goal and like hey here's where here's where we want to reach and this is where we're going to be done or do you have any suggestions for somebody to know when they're out of place where maybe they don't need therapy anymore and they're kind of on their own now yeah I always like to say that when somebody comes in I'm listening for the music under the lyrics so the lyrics are the problem that they're coming in with here's what's going on with some family member here's what's going on with my work situation or I'm anxious or I'm depressed or I'm eating too much or drinking too much or whatever it is and I'm listening for the music under those lyrics which is what is the underlying struggle or pattern that got you to this place in the first place and when we can understand that that's really what the goal of therapy is because whatever they're dealing with that underlying struggle is going to show up in lots of different ways in their life so I think we really work on that goal and I will be the first to say you know somebody's coming in and we've worked through a lot and they're sort of chit chatting either they're not telling me something that we should be talking about or they're done and we need to figure out which one it is so I you know it's kind of like raising your children where you want them to grow up to be independent to be able to function as competent adults and the same thing with your patients you don't want them to rely on you forever you want to give them the tools and the skills and the self-knowledge and the courage and that they need to make the changes that they need to make so that they can navigate through the vicissitudes of life pretty well on their own and I don't mean perfectly because none of us can do that perfectly but but that they're managing much better than they were and and I think that um you know there's this myth about therapy that you're going to come in you're going to talk about your childhood ad nauseam and you're never going to leave right um and it just that is not therapy is a very active process it's not about downloading the problem of the week it's not about quote unquote complaining about something every week it's about having a mirror held up to you so you can see yourself in a way that maybe you haven't been willing or able to do and that mirror is going to help you um so that you won't need the therapist to be holding up the mirror you'll be able to hold it up to yourself when you've gone through this process yeah absolutely like uh my my therapist you know she's she's great at you know recognizing you know my patterns and like you're talking about like you know that underlying like uh uh those things that are going on and no matter what the situation is you kind of see those same themes repeating themselves and then you know eventually you start catching them on your own like oh okay yeah I this is you know here's the signs that this is happening again and and um something that you talked about too is medications right so yeah we got antidepressants anti-anxiety medication some of the most popular ones and something that you know I think about a lot um especially as a recovering pill addict is a lot of us turn to these medications almost like they're the silver bullet in there these very quick fixes and can you can you kind of expand on that a little bit about you know medications versus therapy or in combination um like how do you talk to your your clients about you know being on antidepressants or being on anti-anxiety medications do they have this expectation that those should be there their end all be all for the fix yeah I mean I think that the people who come to therapy are interested in doing the work um but there are sometimes when I will see someone in therapy and I feel like they could benefit from medication and I will send them for a consultation with a psychiatrist so then I work with psychiatrists all the time I share patients with psychiatrists they're doing the medication management I'm doing the therapy and it works really well it just depends on the situation I think that there are people who go to psychiatrists and the psychiatrists will call me and say this person doesn't really need medication but they need therapy and they refer them to me because I think that some people think that I won't have to deal with the the pain if I take a pill I would have to go into those places and what people don't realize is that you know sometimes therapy will be hard in terms of the the painful part of it but it's just so that it won't be as hard as things are now so just because you're numbing out just because you're trying not to feel the feelings doesn't mean you aren't struggling I like to say that numbness isn't nothing this numbness is not the absence of feelings it's it's a sense of being overwhelmed by too many feelings and then what happens is when we're numb we kind of direct our those feelings because the feelings haven't gone away they're still there and we direct them into let's say behaviors so the feelings are there but they come out as a short temperedness they come out as an inability to sit still they come out as too much wine or food or you know or or just you know people who are like just on the internet all day long clicking and clicking and clicking and clicking like a like a lab rat right a colleague of mine said that the internet was the most effective short term non-prescription painkiller out there so that's a drug you know I mean they turn to other drugs right all of these things are drugs all of these ways of being are ways of managing something that feels unspeakable to them and so even with like in the book where the first patient that you meet is john and he's this very abrasive um he's insulting to me he's very unlikable he's he's this guy that people say well why would you even take him into treatment and that's because I knew that his behavior his way of sort of keeping people away with his obnoxiousness was a way for him it was the only way that he felt safe doing something with his feelings that it wasn't it wasn't in his awareness he didn't consciously say I'm gonna keep people away because I can't deal with his underlying pain was that he just could not bear to think about it much less to talk about it and yet of course it came out in all of these ways that affected his marriage that affected his sleep that affected you know his his functioning yeah absolutely I I could I could definitely relate you know to to john I used to have insane anger issues and I I remember when I first got sober my mom she's been sober about 14 years now and uh yeah I remember telling her when she first got me sober that I drank and used drugs as part of my like that was my anger management tool right yeah like I did that and then when I got off of them that's when all my anger unleashed and kind of like what you're talking about with just you know the internet and you know all these different things and whether it's you know drugs or the internet or just binging tv shows and just all these different ways we try to escape feelings how how do you work with people on just being with their feelings like for me personally it was it was meditation right and realizing that my feelings weren't going to kill me you know like yeah that was such an empowering thing for me like wow I can just I can just sit with this and not respond to it and just kind of notice it um but yeah do you have any tools or techniques for just being with what's going on right well what you're saying is absolutely true that our fear of our feelings is often scarier than the feelings themselves so I think that's really important for people to consider and I also you know it's interesting because I've noticed that when people come into my office they are so afraid of talking to other people about how they feel and so the book's title maybe you should talk to someone it doesn't necessarily mean you should talk to a therapist um you know the book isn't about people who go to there it isn't for people who go to therapy necessarily it's for anybody um and because I think we need to be talking more to one another so what I see is that often men will come in and they'll say something like you know I've never told anybody this before and and then I wait you know what is this going to be and it's usually something so mild and I have so much compassion for that because I'm thinking wow in our culture it is so unacceptable for men to be vulnerable in any way that even this and even if this person has like a great partner or great friends or great family they felt like I can't share this part of myself with anyone women will also come in and say I've never told anyone this before except for my mother my sister and my best friends right so they they told maybe one to three people but they feel like they haven't told anyone they feel like there's so much shame behind whatever this thing is and usually by the way the thing that they just close at that point usually I can see maybe why they felt reluctant um you know more so than maybe what what some man might have told right and these are obviously generalizations it's you know there are there are exceptions to these but um but I've noticed that when you know you ask well how do you get people to feel their feelings and I think that's why I wrote this book was I wanted to show people what this process looks like that I think people have this idea from the media about you know what a therapist is which is generally not what they're seeing on tv which is I think you know we're doing a television series um of the book and it's really important to me that just like in the book that people see what is this process really like and how can we benefit from it and even if you don't go to therapy what can you take from it and apply to your own life because I think it's really just how how to be a person in the world yeah you know how can how can we be a person in the world and feel okay about ourselves and feel okay with whatever we're feeling and then use our feelings I think our feelings are like our superpower because they tell us what we want so if you're feeling sad if you're feeling anxious if you're feeling angry even envy I don't know if I would classify that as a feeling but um I always say to people follow your envy it tells you what you want so many people will look at other people and say oh I wish I had what that person has um they're their partner their family their money their job their house their you know whatever their good looks you know whatever it is um and it's kind of like this is an indication that you want something like that for yourself what is the thing that you actually want and what steps can you take right now today to get closer to that and and same with anxiety like you know follow your anxiety it's telling you what's not working that's really useful information if you ignore your feelings it's like you're working with a glitchy gps and you're just going to sort of wander off in all these random directions and get nowhere yeah absolutely and I love that you touched on that I've I've kind of learned to just be mindful of what I'm feeling and and looking at them it's like these little these little like kind of alarm bells like of which directions I need to be going and if I don't know I can sit and kind of break it down and say why am I feeling this especially with envy right like yeah like why do I care that that person's successful why is this bringing up things inside of me you know and I realize that you know happiness is this abundant resource like somebody else's happiness does not take away from mine there is plenty of happiness to go around you know right it's not like it's not like a like a pizza and there are there are slices and only certain people get them and then you're out it's more like love it's it expands it's expansive and so I think that goodwill is expansive and generosity is expansive and so just because somebody else has something that you want doesn't mean that they're taking that away from you in fact they are probably motivating you so you should thank them for their success because because what it does is it says oh wow I'm seeing possibility for myself that I never saw before absolutely well I know you got to get going and I wanted to thank you again Laurie for your time and real quick can you let the audience know where they can where they can find you keep track with all your awesome projects like the tv show podcast all that stuff sure you guys see what you're up to yeah so they can get information about me on my website which is lorigotlieb.com they can watch my ted talk which is about how changing our stories can change our lives it was one of the top 10 most watched podcasts ted talks last year they can read my book maybe you should talk to someone which is available at bookstores everywhere and even during this time bookstores are delivering please support your independent bookstores um they can uh what they can listen to my new um my new deer therapist podcast which comes out in two weeks they can read my weekly deer therapist column in the atlantic um they could follow me on twitter at lorigotlieb one on instagram at lorigotlieb underscore author i'm also on facebook um so uh however they want to connect with me i would love to be uh in touch with them awesome yeah you're you're everywhere and so all this stuff will be provided in the description below and thank you again lori for your time and i'll talk to you soon oh my pleasure thanks so much all right so once again huge huge thank you to lori for coming on to the podcast and make sure you check out the description down below i will have links to everything that lori's got going on i'll have a link to her book all that kind of stuff make sure you're following her on twitter she is very active on twitter she tweets out like all of her new projects and one podcast and her articles are going out and everything like that so make sure that you check out the description down below make sure you go follow her on social media all right but anyways that's all i got for this video if you like this video please give it a thumbs up if you're new make sure you subscribe and ring that notification bell and a huge huge thank you to everybody who supports the channel over on patreon as well as everybody who supports the channel by buying my mental health books at the rewiredsole.com and everyone who gets merch from the merch store all right thanks again for watching i'll see you next time