 Cory doesn't want to be called a Calvinist, so that's okay He doesn't really tell us a label that he wants to be called and then out of curiosity just to be clear Would you identify as a five-point Calvinist just so I have kind of an idea where you're coming Do you line up with tulips of Calvinism and if so four or five Inconsistent Calvinist, I would say philosophically speaking You know who I am whether or not Cory is willing to adopt the fact that he is a theistic determinist or not I'm just saying even if you don't want to call yourself a theistic determinist for all practical purposes I can I can't see logically how you can deny being a determinist if you to if you hold to the 5-point tulip system. It's not really a nice word to call a person. Is it? Yes, I hear a lot of Calvinistic Interpretation. Yeah, because I could make someone very angry You know maybe hurt their feeling Don't nobody want to identify as Calvinists. Why not just say you're a Calvinist? well Just want to ask you to lay off a little bit That's Calvinism. Cory. That's Calvinism. I think man can choose, but he won't choose there for God chooses That's literally reformed Calvinism. You're gonna stop calling me that every Calvinist. I know That's not my name. I'm a mini Calvinist. You call me one more time Calvinist I want to apologize because I know some of you guys there. There are a couple of you guys who are Millennials and even younger who don't wake up until 12 o'clock and we don't go early or this early But there is a reason there's only a few people that I would I would come on this early for One of them is Layton flowers. By the way, let me just back up the very there was one day I forget how long ago this was at least two years ago I hadn't I hadn't been on YouTube very long and I turned the TV on and the TV or those smart TVs had YouTube on so I had YouTube on and I just saw a thumbnail That had it was Layton flowers video and had a picture of me I said to myself man. Wow. I've made it to the big time now. So I Love Layton. Matter of fact one of the first videos I ever did. I don't even know if it's still Live, but I talked about I said how I like Layton flowers I like James White and I ran through a bunch of people and the point was how you can disagree with a lot of people but do so in a godly fashion and Layton flowers Disagrease obviously obviously with Calvinism and so I wanted to bring him on But I also want you guys to know more about him other than because he's not just so Teoreology 101 and so Layton my friend my brother. How are you doing today? I am doing better not deserve brother How are you? I'm doing one for lately if you haven't if you haven't heard. I'm not a Calvary I picked up on that in the intro What's funny is everybody For the what they kept saying core your cows. You know now I get into I wouldn't say get into it Mostly the people that I deal with that I disagree with most with are probably gonna be more charismatic But then after that it's gonna be the reform brothers and so There's some things I agree with on them and there's some things I disagree with but before we get into that I want to give you the opportunity To just folks who may or may not be familiar with you with him by the way guys go over check out his channel So teoreology 101 But Layton tell everybody a little bit about yourself Well, I am the director of evangelism and apologetics for Texas Baptist That's what I've done For the last 20 years matter of fact, I just celebrated my 20th year anniversary with them The podcast has only been going on since 2014. So I had a life before the podcast Actually Most people know me online Through sociology 101 because it happens to be pretty popular especially among theology geeks Like the people who are probably watching this show Bible people And so I have to tell people that that's not my full-time job In fact, that's just a side gig that I do Instead of playing golf or fishing and all the things that people do for hobbies I theology geek out on YouTube and make videos because I was at least I adhered to The tulip systematic and I didn't like being called a Calvinist either by the way Corey So we I can relate to you in that even when I was Calvinistic I didn't really like being called a Calvinist for maybe some of the same reasons you wouldn't want to But I did adhere to the tulip systematic because I thought it was the most biblical I liked John MacArthur John Piper I had him come to our events Vody Bacum came spoke at a lot of our events and I was kind of a part of that brotherhood of Calvinist a part of the the the Founders Ministry of the Southern Baptist Convention, which is Rooted around more of a Calvinistic or reformed theology And so I held to that for about 10 years and then through some independent study I began to question Calvinism and eventually Came out of Calvinism and ended up writing my dissertation for my doctoral work at New Orleans on the topic And it was about that same time that I decided to start a podcast from a recommendation from a student from one of my classes when I was teaching on this We were doing a webinar and I was giving this information on the webinar and he said hey You should just take that recording and put it on a podcast and said what's that? You know, I didn't even know how to do it back then and so I one thing led to another and eventually That's why it's called sociology 101 by the way is because that was the name of the the chat in the the Media that I was using for the the class And so it if I was starting all over and doing it all over again I might have named it something different or you know marketed differently or whatever else But that's just kind of it just kind of one thing led to another led to another led to another and here we are today Okay question, man, and I don't know if if you remember And I don't know if the audience remembers Matter of fact, I'm not even sure which of you guys have been with me What is it? I guess it's three years now. Yeah, three years since I've been on YouTube But the very first video that I did Regarding Layton was and wasn't even really an issue of his his Issues with Calvinism and this so this kind of gonna lead to the first question that I don't want to ask Do you think though that the focus of? Not you but but others that might watch your channel and so to your algae one-on-one Do you think it might be too focused on Calvinism? I understand that that's that's the whole point of the of the channel But there are yeah, I get that you know I get that question a lot even from people who are on my side of the aisle So to speak sociologically is like why why why have a channel dedicated to this one topic and and I did it Purposefully there was several reasons for it The one was I had I have my ministry page where I do apologetics and evangelism That's through Texas Baptist and so we have our Apologetics trainings and all the things and I noticed anytime I post anything about predestination or election or Calvinism on Facebook or Twitter or whatever it just overran my entire page so much so that it became a distraction from What I was doing in ministry and and because it's an in-house debate of the debate among brothers and Sisters I did not want it to be a distraction And so it was like I want to have these discussions because I enjoy this as a part of my my life My home church went through a split over Calvinism and having been a Calvinist for so long. I was pretty You know gung-ho about these doctrines and I'm a theology geek I like to talk about them But I don't like them to be a distraction to the more important aspects of my evangelistic and apologetic ministries And so the reason I created it on a separate page Was in order to keep that from being a distraction and some people have interpreted it as oh, that's all he ever does It's all I ever talks about and I'm like, you know Even I've even got the little one string banjo that a friend sent me You know because James White calls me one string banjo and but I you know if if I posted everything that I do with evangelism on Sociology 101 and I told you know all the apologetic arguments and all the trainings that I do for apologetics and Everything else that I do Then it wouldn't come across like that like James White's program He has all kinds of apologetic arguments and debates that he's doing But he has it all on his AOMN one page and and you probably the same way I haven't watched a lot of the your other content But I'm assuming you do Bible studies on all different kinds of subjects and all different kinds of content that you that you cover and God bless you for that. I have no problems with that whatsoever That's just not the the origin of Sociology 101 and why it came to pass and and I purposefully try to keep it focused on that topic because I've noticed that when you open it up to other eschatology or you know Ecclesiology or all these other different issues then you go down all kinds of rabbit trails and then people end up, you know You know, even though they believe like you do theologically on one point Then they begin to call you a heretic on another that's that's a secondary issue all these kinds of things And I just really was trying to avoid getting into that I was not trying to stay, you know laser focused on this particular doctrine because it is such a Controversial doctrine, especially among Southern Baptist one of the things in this kind of leases question one of the things that that always I mean bothers me bothers me to no end When people attack Calvinist or when people attack Arminians or people attack Provisionists you all have heard me talk about provisionists and so I'm gonna let him talk about provisionism and in the second level What is what a provisionism? I'll let him talk about it but if anyone attacks a certain group of people for their doctrine views and then then begins to espouse this thought that they're Heretics of this that it's a doctrine of devil that that bothers me the most. I mean bothers me to no ends I don't even like when you when someone says that a charismatic is not a Christian I know some charismatic brothers and sisters who love the Lord They might be wrong with some things but again a lot of us are wrong with some things but what is our what where's our heart at and My only concern has been I guess I guess the question would be to you What do you do or what could you do? Because there might well obviously there are people who might listen to something that you say and then they go over to another Channel and hear something about Calvinism and they go somewhere else Go somewhere else and go somewhere else next you know that they're kind of being fed and they don't have the ability like you Do to kind of parse and still understand. Hey, they're they they're wrong on this or they're right on this Or we disagree, but there's still brothers and sisters almost like the guy who Someone is being inundated or or bombarded with Maybe some sort of I don't know let's say for lack of a better way put in some racist rhetoric all day long and Then they don't mean to but because it's what they're being felt what was coming in and they don't have the ability intellectually and in a mature way that I said hey certain people are certain ways But but then to cast certain things on certain people There are certain people that will say all Calvinist or they look at Cal but Calvinism with some sort of impunity Is there something you could do or should do to kind of help to? alleviate that Well, I know this Cory. I do a lot more Than the Calvinists do for the Armenian or the non-Calvinist the leading ones at least in other words I spend a lot of time correcting misnomers about Calvinism You know people accusing them of being anti-vangelistic and I'll explain no actually a lot of good Calvinists are very evangelistic And I was a missionary when I was a Calvinist I was on the you know on doing evangelism as much then as I am now and I help people to understand that one of the biggest arguments or points of contention that I get is that I'm not harsh Enough with Calvinists and that I should be more harsh with them and I have answered more I can't count how many times people who are on the side chat who listen to me You can you can attest to the fact that I have answered the question about whether Calvinist or truly Christians More times than I can count and I have always defended Calvinist as being my brothers and sisters now Obviously, there may be somebody who adheres to the Calvinist system who may not be a true Christian Just like there may be a provisionist or an Armenian who holds to those systems who may not be truly redeemed We don't know the individual hearts of each person by any means But what I'm saying is just because somebody has a theological difference I believe grace covers those theological difference and praise God for that because all of us would be in trouble Based upon our mistakes and misunderstandings of God. You think about Peter He used to think that the gospel was only for the Jews I mean, that's a pretty big heretical mistake if you think about it And it wasn't till he had that dream with the white sheet let down that he was recognizing that the gospel was for all nations And so, you know, the Bible allows for people to have, you know, obvious Misunderstandings about who God is or what he's done and and his grace is big enough to cover those mistakes. Thank God and And so I point that out quite regularly on my program on my broadcast I've got videos with that very title, you know, our Calvinist Christians and defending Calvinists from people who are shouting them down his heretics and everything else and and some of the most vitriolic comments that I get on a regular basis are those that, you know, are mad at me They agree with what I'm arguing for my ex-Jesus and my studies for the most part many of them agree with me But they really just can't get why I I'm not harder on on Calvinist And so I don't know what else to do. I guarantee you I do more in defending Calvinism Than than the leading Calvinists do in defending Armenians or or non-Calvinist I I'm quite certain of that and so So I always just point back to my Calvinistic friends as soon as you can get the leading Calvinist to do as at least as much as I'm doing To defend their opponents then then we'll we'll talk about what else can be done. So so let me ask you this What is if there was Okay, let me ask you this put it this way what is the greatest problem you think With Calvinism, do you why do you think it's harmful? Do you think it's harmful and and how so? Yeah, I think that the major issue that's been pushed against on Calvinism is The denial of human responsibility Even though Calvinists obviously would would refute that or would try to argue against the fact that they deny human responsibility The argument is the implications of their system Deny that humans are truly responsible because they're ultimately being determined to do what they do They don't have really a control In the matter as to whether they're chosen to be elect or reprobate before the foundation of the world and so the whole concept of human responsibility seems to be undermined from the from the logical implications of the Calvinistic system and notice I say the logical implications of it This is sometimes where the accusation and misrepresentation comes in because I think I'm saying Calvinists say people aren't Responsible and I'm not saying Calvinists say people aren't responsible. I'm saying that the logical implications of their system Would lead me to believe or would lead anybody who's being logically consistent to believe that men are not truly responsible They're not blameworthy if somebody rejects a god who first rejected them How are they to be blamed if God's not giving them the opportunity or the ability to accept his gospel? And then holding them responsible for not accepting his gospel. How is that just how is that right? How is it biblical more than importantly? And and that's where we really push back So it has to do with the blameworthiness of the unbeliever and and then secondly the character and the goodness of God When God makes it an offer or an appeal. Is he genuine? Does he really want what he seems to be expressing? Outwardly and this is where the two wills of God approach for many of the Calvinists where God has a prescriptive will and External will versus a secret to the creative will and that yes outwardly he expresses He wants this to happen, but the creatively secretly he really is keeping it from happening By decreeing that you have a nature such that you would never desire to accept the gospel unless he changes your nature And and causes you to want to believe in him and again That's just that's just a form of theistic determinism again that I think undermines the blameworthiness of the center and Brings to doubt the the genuineness of the offer the appeal of the gospel and I think it creates confusion Where it doesn't that doesn't need to be confusion I think it creates categories of thinking about God that are unnecessary and unwarranted I think it creates In some instances as we've played on the broadcast people who leave Calvinism's Christianity because they see God as As a much harsher or much wrath more wrathful of vengeance, you know Vengeful kind of God a capricious kind of God Because they understand him from a more high Calvinistic view and that that's where my apologetic steps in because I'm just trying to help them And I've even heard Piper by the way I've even heard Piper talking to an unbeliever saying I would much rather you you know Go to heaven as an Armenian than to to reject God all together because of the claims of Calvinism in other words He's trying to say, you know, if you can't swallow the difficult pill of determinism or Calvinistic theology You don't have to in order to be a Christian And so I appreciated him saying that because I really do believe there are some people who just can't swallow that pill and And and some people are even walking away from the faith all together or not even entertaining the Christian faith all together because of the unique claims of Calvinistic doctrine and and that's where me as an evangelist an apologist step in say hey You don't have to adopt that way of interpreting the scriptures in order to be a Christian There are viable orthodox ways of interpreting the Bible that do not lead you into Calvinistic theology and and I think people need to understand that so okay So let me ask you this because I think this this leads into the to the first thing I want to talk about and that is this issue about you talk about the blameworthiness of man this whole issue of total depravity And just so the crowd understands I think my view of total depravity leans more towards towards latent than does I was towards Calvinist because that's one of the things that that that I and Calvinist go back and forth on but Your issue with total depravity is what? Well again, even Calvinists like to redefine, you know Even even R.C. Sproul for example calls it radical corruption and and and says it's better understood as total inability if you were to keep the T then you would say total inability is a better word and James White uses the term total inability John McArthur uses the term total inability and what their meaning is not There's just that we're sinful and depraved and that sin affects every part of us because we would all sign off on that I think All of us all everyone sins and fall short of the glory of God sin has affected every part of us Without God without a savior without Christ none of us have any hope where we are all Utterly lost without him so depravity I have no problem with that understanding of depravity, but inability is what removes responsibility From my perspective and so if you're born unable By decree God in other words nothing happens by accident obviously God decreed for man because of the fall to be born in a condition Where they would hate the gospel they would hate God and everything that he says so even if you come to somebody genuinely with an appeal Saying be reconciled and here's the gospel They can't want to accept it because of the way they were born by nature under the fall of Adam They're guilty for what Adam did and they're incapable of admitting that guilt and confessing it in light of the gospel appeal because of how they were born and And and this is why I really push back on this doctrine so vehemently Is because it removes the blame-worthiness of those who reject the gospel in my estimation if you're born unable to accept the gospel What better excuse is there for not accepting the gospel then this is the way I was born God created me this way I'm okay. So let me ask you this question on let's say in regards to a verse like Romans 3 There are none that seek after him. How do you respond to that? Well, he's quoting from the psalmist and he's talking about you know, which which has a lot of hyperbole there You know aspen of the lips, you know poison of the lips This isn't this and sometimes especially the psalmist speak in hyperbolic language And we do this all the time and the psalmist do this as well as Paul even no one ever goes to church anymore on Sunday nights You know, that doesn't mean not a single person ever goes to church. It's just it's a can be a hyperbolic statement because we've got in Psalms Acts 17 where he says what what is it? where he says He has made mankind on the face of the earth having determined their appointed times and boundaries of their habitation that they would seek God if Perhaps they may grope for him and find him though He's not far from each one of us and so what I think Paul is saying in Romans 3 is both Jews and Gentiles have all sinned and No one seeks God in in such a way as to earn or merit their salvation all have fallen short No one is righteous. No, not one. So in accordance with the law all of us fall short No one seeks God as they should we all fail and I think that's his point there And so what's the solution to that well go on down to verse 21, but now there's a righteousness being revealed from heaven By which all may be saved and so the the solution to this problem of no one's righteous No, not one is well your only hope is to do what Abraham did believe and be credited by grace With the righteousness of Christ and so Paul is not saying no one's righteous. No, not one. Oh, yeah in believing in Jesus That's righteous. Therefore. You can't do it because that's that's basically the logic of the way The Calvinist tends to read that verse in my estimation. No one's righteous. No, not one believing in Jesus Well, that would be a righteous thing you you do so therefore you can't do that And that's not what Paul saying Paul saying no one's righteous. No, not one all of us have fallen short No one seeks God the way that they should we all mess up Therefore your only hope is to believe in the righteous one who is Christ and if you put your faith in him Then you will be credited as righteous. It's not your own merit your own worth It's the righteousness of Christ in whom closed you and so that's the way we would understand that passage And so we agree obviously no one's righteous in of themselves But saying that you're not righteous doesn't mean you can't put your faith in the one who is righteous and that is Christ how I have answered this particular question before because And I may Maybe the same conclusion we come to but I take it a different a different route Which is there is none who understands there is none who seeks after God And I happen to notice in in the Greek that these are Particles and so it's to be taken that there is none that that because we see in the Bible that there are Been people that have that did seek after God that did that have they could say I sought after you Did come after him? And so how could that be how could that be taken how could that be the case and well? Because these participles the ing's just the rough way of putting it They that that that means something and there is no one that keeps seeking Now this is mean this would that this will also be kind of where we were we might Disagree, but there is none that keeps seeking apart from what God does to him We'll get part you know more into the this issue of regeneration But how I look at this is yet there have been people at it That's what I forgot there have been some but there's been none that keeps seeking and so Even though it didn't say keep seeking but the but the hot Zayton just seems to indicate the ones that seeking there are there is none Absence something that's done either within or without something that has to take place on the inside of you Or on the outside unless the glory of the Lord is is coming before you and you've got a prophet You've got mirrors and so forth and leaving you Absent that then something has to happen on the inside and then you are going to unless something happens on the inside of you You're going to do what you want to do And so that's kind of how I I take it because I believe that you do have the ability To choose you have the ability to believe But I don't think that we absolutely will and Jesus in Luke 8 makes a statement that there are those that believe temporarily and And and someone said well, well, that's not true salvation. The point is though They believed temporarily according to Jesus and but the issue with the with the word Coming into their heart was that their heart was the issue. And so I think Luke 8 Does a good job of showing that yeah, you you could believe and oh by the way There were those in the Old Testament that the Bible said believe the Jews believe Nineveh believed But they didn't keep believing and that I think I think that for me is is is the issue that shows that you have people can But I don't think the issue is can they the issue is is is willing now Obviously where the Calvinist would say that the issue is no they can't I think you can I just cuz I'm like you I don't I'm not saying that God is is is offering or stating do this But you can't do this. I want you to do this knowing full. Well, you can't now I can see him saying do this knowing full well that you won't but do this knowing for what you can't bet to me And by the way, I don't I don't see the scriptures in that so For the most part I now that's where I I think I agree with you for the most part They're obviously gonna be some difference and nuances and so forth where you're gonna say I I don't see it quite that way whatever, but but that's one of those both verses also and then also Ephesians dead in our trespasses and sin I Think the answer is actually in the verse itself But how do you when someone brings that up? How do you how do you respond to them on that? Well, a couple things let me back up just real quick on some of the other points that you were bringing up One I would say, you know with with regard to Romans 3 He is talking in the context of those who say there is no God there The passage is quoting from and so when you're describing those who do not believe you're contrasting that with those who do believe So the righteous live by faith Romans 1 17 and he goes on to contrast with that with those who suppress the truth and unrighteousness And so that's that the dichotomy and Paul's mind in my estimation And so in in Romans 3 when it says no one is righteous. No one seeks after God If I said to you, you know, you can't call the president and get him on the phone right now That would maybe be a true statement but if the president tried to call you does that mean you can't answer his call and See the logic of that so God is seeking to save the lost He sent Christ to seek to save the lost and so the the point of contention is not whether we initiate or whether we're the ones who Cause salvation or cause God to save us by making this happen. The question really is about do we have the capacity? By the way, God designed us in other words It is God designed us in such a way that we have the capacity to respond to him And when I say respond to him I mean either respond positively or negatively to his gospel appeal and I believe that he has created us in that way And I think that he he holds us responsible because we have that ability to respond either positively or negatively to his appeals and so these verses that are often taken I think To as proof text for this concept of inability Really don't say what the Calvinist needs them to say in order to support their their doctrine in my estimation Proof that we can't seek God doesn't prove that we can't respond to a God who's actively seeking us through the gospel He is my point and so that that's what I wanted to get to there with regard to the deadness issue Much of the same thing that there's been a lot of play from the Calvinist about dead means dead and dead means you're unable and Obviously dead corpses are unable to respond to anything so that that's what it means But even Calvinist aren't taking it that literally because even in Ephesians It says they're walking in accordance with the the world the prince the power and spirit working in other words Dead men don't walk either but dead men don't I mean you have a lot of different responses to the gospel from quote-unquote dead men some of her apathetic to the scriptures Some are our vitriolic and mean and angry towards the scriptures Some are very interested for a long time and ask a lot of questions genuinely trying to figure these things out There's a ton of different kinds of responses None of which would be consistent with a true corpse like corpse and so even Calvinist are interpreting dead Idiomatically in some way and so the question is what does the scripture mean when it uses the term? spiritually dead and I think if we look at examples like the prodigal son, which was said to be he's once dead But now he's alive. He's lost but always found that that's it That's a good idiomatic way of understanding deadness as being separated due to rebellion and that how do you how do you overcome that? Will you draw near you come home? And so what is the solution for spiritual deadness? Well, John 2031 says these things have been written so that you may believe and that by believing You may have life in his name. So what do you need to do in order to get new life? You believe in Jesus and so you come to the life giver Jesus said in and John 540 You refuse to come to me so that you may live he didn't say I refuse to make you alive so that you would come to me He's putting that on them. You come to the life giver You eat of his flesh you drink of his blood as he goes on in John 6 to argue in order to get new life You're not unilaterally made alive regenerated in order to Believe that I think that's where the odor salute us that the order is backwards on the Calvinistic system Is that people are made alive in order to believe on Calvinism? And I'm saying you know you come to Jesus in order to be made alive because you were once dead Separated due to your rebellion and the solution to that deadness is to come back to the life giver So as to receive new life in him Yeah, now at some point in time where I want I'm trying to I'm trying my best to hold off We'll get to the you part and this issue of regeneration Because that would be an easy segue right there, but I'm trying to hold off because I want to cover Some of the other things as well but So and I agree I agree because now I have The one thing that I push more than anything else is that we shouldn't have a conclusion based hermeneutic Our hermeneutic needs to be defined and it should be consistent. So Me having I have a literal grammatical historical hermeneutic Which does which doesn't mean that I have to take every one single word literally And so when we come to this word necrosse dead that mean that you're absolutely dead because it literally says we put it back on the screen It speaks of Idiomatically, what does he mean by dead? And he says in sins in your trespasses That's how you did not necessarily actually dead dead So you can't do anything because we see as you say in the passage someone is doing something But then also The prodigal son and so what does it mean dead? I think it just simply means to be to be separated just like the prodigal son just like we also see in In roman 6 in roman 6 and so now before I get to how we we start dealing with how you become alive There's a little bit of difference between you and I But there's also a little bit between you you and I and the Calvinist as well and so I think that for me and I think you agree that totally depraved. I don't have a problem with it with the term But then again depending component depending upon who you ask What does this term mean? Since there's no board no council that sits around says this is what this word means This is what this means and so you ask five Calvinists You're gonna get you may get five five different arguments or definitions and so and I know I've seen different times where on your channel You're dealing with a Calvinist a Calvinistic interpretation. That's not like this other person's Calvinist interpretation. So There in lies the problem in many cases, but I I I don't see dead meaning dead that you can't do anything because again In the Old Testament we see people who same thing And they respond And so the issue is and we'll deal with this a little bit, but how do they respond now? This issue comes up about what christ did in his atoning work Which brings us to the next question and so I don't know how long we'll be on this one But then we'll get to the the greater points and then There there are a bunch of questions that are being asked right now But how do you also deal with how do you rebut? How do you deal with this issue of limited atonement? Well, um, it's interesting that even john calvin arguably did not believe in a limited extent of the atonement Now I use the word extent there to help people differentiate between the different aspects of the atonement because There there's the the extent of the atonement meaning it's extended to all of creation In other words, did jesus die for the sins of the world? I believe that he did first john 2 2 seems to indicate this as many other passages Seem to indicate that he did die for the sins of the world and that he extends the offer With a well meant offer of the gospel meaning he's he's not saying hey Anyone can come and then he's not purchasing it for some people He's his atonement is sufficient for the sins of all the world and it's actual Not potential sufficiency because there's a whole debate behind the scenes on that even among we were formed theologians and so there's also the The application of the atonement and the the the atonement is not applied to everyone The atonement is only applied to those who believe it's applied by grace through faith And so you look to the serpent on the pole in order to be healed from the venom In the the old testament in the same way as christ uses an allergy in john 3 I'm lifted up for the sins of the world And whoever looks to him in faith will be healed So you have to look to the provision for healing and so it's provided for the whole But it only actually applies or helps those who look to it in faith And so that's why we're not universalists and so some people try to accuse you You have to be a universalist if you believe in universal atonement because Because they're conflating the extent of the atonement with the application of the atonement And then there's also the intent of the atonement The intent is what has gotten intent in sending christ to die On on calvary and the intent for a five point calvinist is that he intends To pay for the sins only of his elect and and they will certainly be saved and the the Provisionist like myself would say no he's provided the means of atonement for all men He has provided the the way for every single man woman boy and girl and therefore no one Perishes for a lack of atonement. No one goes to hell because jesus didn't die for them And even there's quotes even from calvin and other even reformers from back in the day, especially before dork That that argued more for that that view of true sufficiency of the atonement That's how you read first gen two first gen two two is uh, yeah, it would be one of the major proof texts for A universal extent of the atonement Yeah, I have um, and I've had this conversation with people Um, I just I there's there's just no way at least for me And I actually said I stopped and thought have I ever been A calvinist have I ever have ever bought into all five? I can't remember. Maybe I have maybe I have I don't know I never once as I can recall Stated. Yeah, I'm a calvinist and and and I hold to this I hold to this I hold to this I hold to this I can't maybe I did If I did I'm not sure I'm not sure what I thought what I believe before I went bald But that's all in the past ever since I've been delivered and got bald. It's a different story But as I read first gen two Uh, my little children I'm writing so he's speaking to children. He's speaking to uh, technia move. He's speaking to the the believers Uh, he says this I'm writing to you and he says in order that you don't sin But he says if anyone says if anyone sins we have an advocate with the father Uh, jesus christ the righteousness and he himself. I'm sorry mental right right spot. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah And he himself is our propitiation Uh, which this word is also used and this is why I think this is important. This is where I think I think words have meaning And and and guys are hearing me say this over and over again words have meaning And so this word that's used here if we go back to the to the Septuagint And look at uh, Leviticus 16 and 17 and other parts in the old testament And we see this word a ton or this word propitiation We see the same word this the same greek word and so we know what he's speaking of But he says that he himself is the propitiation this halasmas For our sins with our obviously it can only Because it's it's referring back to uh, the children Of christ the children of god and so our sins, but then he says Um, but not ours alone Mananala, which is not only ours alone But the whole of the world peri halu too constant of the whole world the whole of the world And I don't see how you can get away with saying that that doesn't refer that that he's not drawing a distinction between his children And the world he makes this atonement for for for both And the reason why I wanted to point out that this this greek word is the same word That's used in the old or one of the two words is used in the old testament regarding our atonement Is because our atonement is What we see in the old testament Just a different different a different high priest a better high priest A better scapegoat Someone better who takes away the sins of the world and a better sacrificial offering And at that time Atonement was made for all of israel. However, all of israel did not have all their sins atoned for And just like the example that you used in john three Here we've got the serpent. It's he's the serpent is there on the pole for all to see Atonement is made for all But it's not beneficial all and so I just think just a just the very nature of atonement Lends itself that there could not be he makes atonement just for Not not as to whether it'd be effective for everyone. Obviously, we all agree on that but that he died just for Um as a matter of fact, even I see someone said all of israel But even atonement under the old covenant Not just israel could have taken part in the atonement Yes, the straight just the sojourner anyone who would humble themselves as he says I put their souls and so forth and coming for the lord That atonement would be sufficient for them as well. And so That's where I have a hard time. And so people say well core you're at your account is okay Well, then then finally three point two and a half point two point two point countless I think once we're done today, you're not going to be a two or three point even so Yeah So, uh, that so what I just said, what do you what do you think about what I just said? No, uh, you we seem to be on the same page on that that front and and so is like charles hodge Dabney shed the princeton theologians all of which are Reformed guys that calvinists really admire and look up to and they're all making the same kinds of arguments with regard to the extent of the atonement being Uh sufficient and universal meaning, you know for the sins of the whole world David allen is probably the the premier scholar on that topic He's got at least two or three books that you could find online If you typed in his name david allen in atonement, you'd have several options there And and one of his books 800 page book. I don't have it right next to him. It's over there, but Most of it is quotes from reform theologians throughout history who are arguing for universal extent of the atonement The reason it's so huge is that he quotes almost every single quote from even Uh Can you know calvinistic or reformed theologians throughout history? Who have argued for universal extent of the atonement? So he makes a really strong case for why calvinists really don't need to to adopt the they need to be christmas calvis Which is the noel uh noel calvinist. So Okay, so now Let me take I have to take a sip of coffee. I got I gotta take a sip Hey, I'll do I'll do my sip while you're doing your sip. How about that? Here's why laden here dog on and laden. Here's why So I agree with you on total depravity and limited atonement I've got to ask this question because I thought I understood you on On eternal security, but then someone said no no no that's not what he believes And then I saw someone sent me a clip and said okay. Well, maybe I'm so you know what now I've got the horse share not that you're a horse, but let me speak to Ask to get it from the horse's mouth What is your view on eternal security one saved always saved the extent of salvation? Well, I saw that video and and I appreciated you because I even said on there now hear me out And you played that several times and then you actually heard me out And so you were able to hear what I was talking about Which um, which is if you believe that god has universally supplied a means of salvation the way of salvation for every man Woman boy and girl than anybody who ends up denying him They are perishing because they refuse to love the truth so as to be safe salvation has been provided for them So in that sense, they're leaving behind the provision Of atonement. They're leaving behind salvation And so I was you know, maybe that was a little cheeky the way that I was doing it because that's not the way In which the question is being asked the question is being asked with regard to Those who genuinely are born again Can they lose that and even our minions like michael brown and others that do believe You know do not affirm eternal security Even they aren't saying you can just accidentally out send the grace of god or something like that like you lose your car keys And we don't want to caricature their view either what what they're saying is that you can make a conscious decision To freely reject christ and and thus lose your salvation in that way because you walked away from god And so that's that's more their position Um I don't hold that position. I've not been convinced that the bible teaches that position I believe in eternal security what's normally known as eternal security And in other words, I do believe in the effectiveness of regeneration I don't believe regeneration proceeds faith But I do believe that regeneration changes you In such a way that if you were to deny christ, that's more of a reflection of something that never was right As the first john passage that everyone quotes in these discussions says those who have gone out from us Were never really of us and this is the issue. This is one of the reasons I hold this is really an open handed issue because for all practical purposes we treat These people all the same because we don't know the heart of any individual So if any individual is denying christ who wants Seem to be in the faith Then one of three categories they're in they could be a backslidden christian somebody who's truly redeemed But now just going through a horrible Trouble or pain or problem, you know, there's people who've lost their children in car accidents or had You know after war Have a mental breakdown or whatever else who may deny christ or act in such a way as as deny christ But they truly are still redeemed god knows their heart But they're just going through the valley and and they could be in a backslidden state And that that's a real condition that the bible actually addresses With carnal christians, you know first Corinthians 3 that they're saved but through fire And so there is a category of people who are genuinely christians saved But may be acting like they're not and and so that may be one category this a second category of Person may be be those that i've already mentioned those who were never really saved to begin with They are those who are cry out lord lord Do we not prophesy on your name and perform any miracles and he says depart from me? I never knew you There was never a relationship. There was never genuine faith. There was maybe religion there. There was some You know some kind of Experiences maybe that that were moving to them But they never had a an intimate or real relationship with the father And and so that's two categories of people now. I just happen to believe those are the two only real biblical categories Michael brown and other armenians might say there's a third category and that are those who lost their salvation now who who Have left behind maybe instead of lost their salvation. They've left their salvation They were once born again, but now they're not born again anymore They were once and well by the spirit, but now the spirit has abandoned them because of of their decision Now that category may exist. I may be wrong about that. I i'm 80 percent sure on that one I'll tell people percentages. I am 80 percent sure that that category doesn't exist, but it could But I don't really care Reason I say that is because it's not going to change my Practice at all because it no matter what of those three categories somebody's in I don't know their heart And if they're denying christ or they're they're acting as if they don't believe in christ I have to assume by their fruits that they don't And I have to call them to repentance as a pastor And so I'm going to treat those three people regardless of where they really are secretly and only god would know that I'm going to treat them all the exact same way. I'm going to pray for them. I'm going to call them to repentance I'm going to to draw they could call them to to come back Because even if they're a backslidden way where christian they need to be called to repentance called back into fellowship If they're not truly a believer they need to be called to repentance and into fellowship with god because provision has been made for them They can be saved and if they're one of those who have lost their salvation unless you're an extreme Kind of view of arminianism that believes you can't be saved again if you've lost it Which some people take Hebrews 6 to mean that Um, and I don't know a lot of people I know one or two that do defend that position that once you lose your salvation You can't ever be saved again But I man, I I can't imagine somebody actually practicing that like Seeing somebody that they think was saved and now they don't think of saving going. Oh, well, you know, and they just Yeah, especially if they're their own child or their loved one and so for all practical purposes I'm going to treat those three categories of people the exact same way as a pastor I you know what, um I think what happens sometimes is and this is what I think is the most important thing and then we'll get into where Uh, late late is going to disagree with me. Um, but Everybody if you've got an ounce of of of brain If you if you've read the bible, you know that you have to place your faith in christ And what we do is we because we like theology. We like the bible. We try to figure out. Well, how does that work? How how am I put the key in the ignition? I turn it it start Now what we do is we want to go and start breaking the uh, the steering components down and and go into the engine And see how this works. Whatever we have different different views and philosophies Uh, and so I get that because again if you have it I don't care if you believe in once they've always saved or you don't believe in it If you are Armenian provision is Calvinist the the question is still going to be do you have christ? That's what it's always going to boil down to now. We're just sitting there figuring out That's why it bothers me when someone says well, he's not safe. He's not safe She's not safe. Whatever because they have a different doctrine that doesn't depart from the the true gospel That's where I have a problem with it. But now that being stated Tell me if or where you you disagree with this um that The reason why a person who is truly saved and I'm like you There's only two people that know if you're saved or or could know totally that you're saved. Truly that you're safe God obviously And then you You can look saved and not be saved. You can look unsaved and you know, peter the day the the day that he denied christ Everyone in the chat would have said he ain't saying yeah, he's he's uh, he's just like Judas But we know better. So sometimes looks can be deceiving And so those are only two so ultimately it's it's going to come down to that and then Jesus makes them. I never knew you but How I understand a person to be saved why they why they're saved why they stay saved and I go back to luke 8 And so in this case I am Against the Calvinist and then the latter part of luke 8 I go for some of the Calvinistic views the heart The word or the seed is the word and the ground is or the soil is the heart well The only way that the heart or the soil can be in a position to receive the word and to keep the word That's not a work that we do and so that for that reason. I believe that What he's doing or has done in our heart keeps us saved That is God has always stated in and you and you tell me if or where you disagree I think want to lay this out so perfectly that that lately you're not going to disagree. I think you I think But god has always stated the issue with man's heart We are just if if if you lock us in a room somewhere and give us time and and no cameras around I think listen, we can invent all sorts of evils and do all sorts of things And not even intend to we just kind of you know, it's what I do And so God and Deuteronomy makes a statement to the children of Israel fix your heart circumcise your heart And I think he means that I think as a matter of fact not doing it comes with punishment Then he comes back in 30 and says I'm going to put you out of the land But I haven't put you in the land yet, but before you before you go No, I'm going to take you out. Why because you're disobedient and he says I will in Deuteronomy 30 and 6 says he says I will Circumcise your hearts and so throughout the Old Testament he complains about their wicked hearts But then also states along those lines that he is going to do something about their hearts He says he speaks about it Especially as it relates to salvation in Jeremiah 32 and Jeremiah 31 and Ezekiel 11 as Ezekiel 36 And other places and so then he does and I think Jesus is speaking about this in John 3 Because he gets on Nicodemus you a teacher of Israel You don't know these things and he uses the same two elements about a person being born from above That the God uses in the Ezekiel uses in 36 27 28 25 26 27 28 Or 27 The same the same issues the same thing that's that's brought up in John 1 the same thing that's brought up in In Romans the same thing that's brought up in 1st Peter that our hearts have been changed Uh, and so this is where we're this is obviously this is where we're late in our depart right here That what God does is he does something to the heart That we otherwise would not do He promises to do so he does so And then what he does is not because of us now i'm not i'm not one that says because the question was asked and i'm i'm i'm working this out does faith uh predate regeneration Or vice versa in other words, what if a person believes temporarily Then gets their heart regenerated Can that work? Well, I guess it could there's no bible versus says it couldn't happen that way Or what if if it's just regeneration that causes a person to believe and say but I I believe the regeneration part I can't see the regeneration being anybody But God an absolute God doing so you won't you will not be saved and so when Peter says God caused us to be born again. I think that's where the proper do goes um And so now obviously I think this is where where you and I are going to disagree And and part but I think this is him seeing I'm open the door for all of you to come Any and everybody black white Hispanic orange if there are some people tall um short hair no hair Come and nobody is going to come. That's how I I think he knows full. Well, none of you are going to come And then so what does he do? I think that's when he says that a person must then be born from above That's when the heart is regenerated. That's him doing exactly what he said he's going to do From the old testament on and including even bringing in Gentiles to the same thing. So now me stating that Where do you disagree? Well, I would call you a Calvinist based upon what you just said, but I don't want to get hurt So, um Let me let me let me try to spell out why I think that falls under Calvinism Because you said nobody would want to come he says everybody come but nobody would want to that that really is what Calvinists are saying under the tea Um, they're they're saying they you can't want to because of your corrupt nature from birth No, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not saying you can't want to I'm saying there are people that that can even legitimately want to And they can come for a hot second And they mean it. I mean they legitimately mean it at that moment But because of the condition of their heart It's that easy for them just as easy as they came To go ahead and depart And so when he says they're basing that on the soils, you know, you're basing that on the luke 18 the soils Is that right partly? Yes Okay. Yeah, that's where I would differ. I don't think the parable of the soils is talking about what your predetermined Condition of your heart is I think that you can cultivate soil and that soil can be cultivated by circumstance and scripture reading and people people praying for you Your own rejection your heart can grow hardened and callous just like the soil that's padded down and hardened That's something you can become callous or you can become hardened according to scripture Romans chapter one get into it in acts 28 as well Where it says your heart has become callous because they close their eyes. Otherwise they might see here Turn and understand that I would heal them. Therefore. I take the message to the Gentiles So they will listen So the hardening of the heart is not a natural condition from birth or something that's predetermined by god That's a condition that that one can grow into Due to life circumstances. So I think the soils are describing adult people's, uh, you know condition based upon Maybe their own life choices and their own Circumstances of life and their own decisions that have led them to that kind of soil in their hearts Not that it's just predetermined to be that way from birth like they're just born either a rocky soil or a hardened soil or a thorny soil and they really have no no say over the matter I don't think that that's the point of the the parable of Jesus in my estimation And so I I would just point out that like in the Ezekiel passages and others where he says he'll circumcise their heart He'll Make them alive or those kinds of things What you can't assume in my estimation is you can't just assume that he's just unilaterally picking people And causing that to happen to them But that I think that the scriptures indicate who he does that for And so for example Ezekiel 18 It says cast away from you all your transgressions which you've committed and make yourself a new heart and a new spirit For why will you die? Oh house of Israel for I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies declares the sovereign lord Therefore repent and live And so he seems to be saying that you're responsible to humble yourself and repent And in so doing then as a response to that god will give you a new heart You admit you have a corrupt heart then god will give you a new heart And he does and he doesn't want people to die in their sins He wants them to come so as to be given life repent and live the order there is you repent first So as to live not that I'll unilaterally make you alive regenerate you so that you'll surely repent And so those passages are a lot of them I know what you're talking about through Ezekiel and other places where he talks about I will give you a new heart I will do I'll write my name upon you. I do this isn't this but who is he talking to? Well, he's talking to those who believe and so the assumption there is for you believers This is what I this is what I will do for you not I'm going to unilaterally pick some of you and then do this to your heart so that you will believe I don't think that that's ever established in the scripture. You're saying that in my view of it You're saying Ezekiel. He's he's speaking to those who who do believe I'm I'm telling you that he's prophesying about what he's going to do for his church and for well Really the nation of israel is what he's talking about there But some would you know relate that to what he does with his bride later And so if you're wanting to apply that to the church, then I would say that he's he's That's applicable to those who put their faith or who cast away from them their transgressions Which they've committed which is just another word for repentance And so if you repent in faith then you will get a new heart a new spirit Not I will just unilaterally give certain people a new heart a new spirit who are just the blessed ones who were picked Before creation And they're just unilaterally given a new spirit so that they start loving god or start wanting to come to him That that in my estimation is the heart of what makes calvinism calvinism Is that you you can't want to believe in him unless he picked you Unilaterally before you were ever created And then unilaterally works upon you in some way to give you a new spirit a new heart circumcise your heart or whatever it is He unilaterally works on you in a way that changes your heart and your nature to make you want to believe in him Okay, so that is the root of calvinism and my okay, let me let me if you don't mind let me go back to to Ezekiel 36 um He's speaking of obviously as we said to israel Therefore say to the say to the house of israel thus says the lord god It is not for your sake or house of israel that i'm about to act But for my holy name which you have profaned among the nations where you went so obviously so in this case Israel's not godly as a matter of fact israel's under judgment israel has more judgment And consequences that come so they're not acting The way they're not behaving in the way he says but i will defend Vendicate the holiness of my great name so we're going to do so not because of them But because of his great name which has which has been profaned among the nations Then the latter part of that then the nations will know that i am the lord so that the nations will know Then the nation will know that i am the lord declares the lord when i prove myself holy among you in your site in their site Then he says for i will take you from the other nations and gather from you all the lands And bring into their own into your own land Clearly speaking about israel and here it is then i will sprinkle clean water on you and you will be clean I will cleanse you from all your filthiness And i always notice the The pronouns and notice who's doing the cleaning which who's active and who's passive I will do these things obviously this is god. I will cleanse you from all your goodness And from your idols more over who who will he do that to Well in this case, he's saying israel, but he's going to do that not just to israel But all every single israelite Well, no, no, no, no, he's not gonna do every every so the pre the pre-chosen ones the pre-elect ones Here's what we do. No, he says I It's either it's either the pre-chosen ones who were unconditionally picked before they were born Or he's talking about those who come to believe trust in him Well, where do we see him say that he's gonna leave and trust in him It doesn't say either one It doesn't say he's gonna do this for the pre-chosen elect Nor does it say he's gonna do this for believers in that verse now It does over in Ezekiel that tells us who he's gonna do it for and Ezekiel 18 as I already read to you But in that passage it doesn't say that I'm gonna do this for those I have chosen before if the foundation of the world for you know, no known reason I mean, it's within the secret counsel of his will nor does it say I'm gonna do this for those who put their trust in me He doesn't say either one So we have to go outside that text in order to know who he's going to do that for because nobody believes He's doing that for every single israelite and only israelites So none of us interpreted that verse that way But each of us interpreted that he's only going to do that for some people Well, who is he going to do that for those unilaterally picked before they're ever born for reasons beyond their control Or is he going to do it for those who cast away from you all your transgressions Which you've committed and make yourselves a new heart and new spirit for why will you die a house of israel? And so I go to outside to Ezekiel go earlier in the chapter to Ezekiel 18 And I look for who he's going to do this for And he's going to do for those who repent and trust in him He's not going to do it for every single israelite because some israelites are not going to repent and trust in him Let me go to uh the Ezekiel Yeah, Ezekiel 18 last two verses 31 and 32 Okay, actually, you know the whole chapter of Ezekiel would be you know Ezekiel 18 the whole chapter is pretty good Is it explaining all of that it says but when I'm starting 24 I'll jump down quickly 30 to the end But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness commits iniquity And does according to all his abomination that a wicked man does will he live? Well, obviously the answer is no all his righteous deeds, which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery Then verse 25 Yet you say the way of the lord is not right here now is oh house of israel is my way not right Is it not the way? Ways that you are not right is not your ways is not right when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness commits iniquity And dies because of it for his iniquity which he has committed he will die Again when a wicked man turns away verse 27 from his wickedness Which he has committed and practiced justice and righteousness. He will save his life Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions Which he which he had committed he shall surely live he shall not die But the house of israel says the lord the way of the lord is not right Are my ways not right? Oh house of israel is it not your ways? That are right. Therefore In these last last portion of this he says therefore I will judge you oh house of israel each according to his conduct according to the lord god repent And turn away from all your transgressions so that the iniquity may not become a stumbling block cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed And make yourself a new heart and a new spirit for why will you die oh house of israel? I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies and clears the lord therefore repent and live The problem is though he says he says make yourself a new heart which he's which he's been stating The issue is they never do which is why he comes back and says Um how I take it he comes back and says I will because he every time he tells him to fix their heart He comes back and says I will do so he keeps telling them to do so they never do and then he says I will do so and the time will come when he would do that and then he even gives a gives a Kind of a time stamp as I don't even I don't have a problem with that interpretation But again, it doesn't answer the question is who is he doing that for well And it's either it's either he's doing it for people unilaterally pick before creation Which he's eco 36 doesn't have or he's doing it for these people who um are repenting But they keep falling back into sin because they keep going back to that cycle And so he when they do repent he's going he's going to create within them a new heart And a new spirit and this is exactly what we see happening in the new testament with the the spirit coming to indwell uh christians And so he's doing that for a certain group of people and so the debate is not whether god's doing or not We all believe god's doing this But who is he doing it for and the more calvinistic interpretation is those unilaterally pick before creation for reasons that we just don't know And the provisionist answer and even the armenian answer would be no He's doing that for those who trust in him who who repent the only problem The only problem is see I so after he makes a statement The question is lord what you made your statement in in deuteronomy and what you said in ezekiel What you said in jeremiah what you said in other places what you're going to do even about what you said you're going to do with gentiles The questions are going to be when Then when we get to john one and john three i'm bringing up john one uh for a reason but in john three He's having this conversation with this Pharisee nicodemus and he says that unless a person is ganeta and notham born from above Then that person cannot see the king of god So the first thing has to happen is with king of heaven king of god is the person must be Born from above born again born from above and he used the same two elements that we see in ezekiel water and spirit So he says so he says the same thing three ways born again Born uh of the spirit um and born from water and spirit born of water and spirit And then he makes a statement at the latter part We're not the latter part but a little further down He says the wind blows where it wishes and you and you hear the sound of it But don't but don't know where it comes from so it is of everyone who is born Of the spirit and then john one he says that you're not born of the spirit You're not born because of your will because of flesh because of blood but you're born of god's will And then as we go and then peter chimes in In first period i don't move kind of fast, but first peter one He says that god caused all of us to be born again So this born again practice that happens that causes us the ability to be saved That or changing our heart That's god's work. Let's go through those. Yeah, let's go through those two passages Which was the the let's go through those two the the romans three um, excuse me, um, john three john three Yeah with nicodemus, and then we'll look at this the peter passage you were talking about those he he Gives birth to okay one We all believe that you have to believe in jesus in order to enter or see the kingdom of god The question is not whether you have to believe in order to enter or see the kingdom of god you do The question is whether you have to be born again prior to your believing And so the fact that you have to believe before you see or enter the kingdom is something that we universally hold to But that's a different question than whether you have to be born again in order to believe in jesus To believe the gospel our order is that you believe in jesus you come to jesus so as to receive life born again So that you may see and enter his kingdom the calvinist is saying no you're regenerated you're made alive So as to believe in jesus and enter his kingdom And so they're just the again it's the order salute us that this passage does not say Either way which one of those two is correct. And so that's why I don't hold that's why I don't do that. I don't I don't say Um, because the scripture doesn't give us enough. I don't say that a person has to be born again made alive and then made alive I don't I don't take it that way that that uh many calvinists do as well I'm saying that Whether the regeneration happens prior to faith Whether a person can believe this and then regenerate it doesn't matter what has to happen is that their heart has to be regenerated now The issue is though as he says in chapter. I mean verse eight We don't know where it's going going from or going to And so that indicates since you don't know where it's coming from or who is going to that's not us Same thing with peter he caused us to be Born again, not us. It's not our faith that that produces the regeneration It's the regeneration that keeps us having faith. It's the regeneration. It keeps us as as the I just don't think that the verse says enough to conclude that I think that the big the big issue in that day was um was god regenerating or making alive Gentiles barbarians people who did not follow the law and so to argue that the spirit blows where he wants to he can in other words he can blow on a Um a prostitute Gentile woman who genuinely believes And and he would be perfectly just do that. He can blow wherever he wants to it doesn't mean he he's blowing Unconditionally of their faith now. He may not be blowing conditionally on their merit like like in other words Just like the the the parable of the wedding banquet. They're the people aren't You know granted entrance and many are called fewer elect The the ones who are called are the jew and then the gentile to my nation and the other nations And then to the good and the bad alike. So the condition is not your morality or your nationality the color of your skin Your your gender Slave-free none of those things are conditions for whether you'll enter the banquet But there is a condition in that in that parable. It's a very clear condition They had to come in response to the invitation In the right wedding garments and what does that represent coming in faith Coming clothed in the righteousness of christ and so there is a condition the condition is not your merit Or your own goodness or your own worth The the condition is being clothed in the righteousness of christ that is a condition And so when you try to promote unconditional election i.e. the spirit blows wherever he blows And therefore he blows on somebody causing them to come in response to the invitation And to be clothed in the righteousness of christ that would be a more Calvinistic interpretation But my interpretation is no you're responsible to come in response to the invitation And if you come in faith you look to the serpent in faith Then you will be clothed in his righteousness as a result of doing that And and those are the ones who are elect in that parable of matthew 22 The few who are elect are those who have come in response to the invitation clothed in his righteousness And so that's your responsibility But it's still very much consistent with the wind blows wherever he pleases he can have Mercy and grace on on and anybody even barbarian gentiles who put their faith in him because that's what he's chosen to do And the other passage I think you mentioned where peter mentions about bringing The about god bringing us to new life or god birthing us, of course Yeah, we all believe that god's the one who does the birthing. That's not the question It's whether he's doing so unconditionally or conditioned upon faith in jesus. That's that that's the point of contention It's not whether god does the birthing but um, if you'll read the passage where where where does it say that? First peter one three says blessed be the god and father of our lord jesus christ who has according to according to And this I think with this is the key according to his great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of jesus christ from the dead and so Um, this word keep reading. I'm sorry. Okay to obtain inheritance, which is imperishable and undefiled And will not fade away reserved in heaven for you who are protected by the power of god Through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time In this you greatly rejoice tell me when stop You greatly rejoice even though now for a little while if necessary you have been distressed By various trials so that so that the proof of your faith being more precious than gold Which is perishable even though tested by fire may be found to result in in uh praise and glory and honor At the revelation of jesus christ and though you have not seen him you loved him and and though you do not see him now But believe in him You will greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full glory obtaining The the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls Do you want to keep reading that's not that yeah the you can stop there That's not the passage that what is that one first peter that's not the passage I thought it was first peter one but it's still fine because it does still say through faith Right there in verse five Um, it's it's this is happening through faith in other words. It's not unilaterally Just causing you to be born again. He is causing who to be born again Those who believe and so you're being raised with him through faith Colossians 2 12 Were raised you're raised with christ through your faith And so you're not just you're not raised in order to have faith You're raised because you believe not the other way around Well, then why would live not the other way around Well, why use the word caused you to be born again if the cause wasn't it was him it was i'm sorry Because he causes believers to be born again But how how was him how was he causing them if it's predicated upon their faith first? Because he causes believers to be born again. So whoever comes to me. I will make alive And so if you come you will be made alive. He will cause believers to be born again And so that's why that's why the the bible over and over again if you confess then you will be forgiven It's not I will forgive you so that you'll confess obviously in the same way If if you believe then you will be born again And he doesn't have like the prodigal son story when he comes home from his pigsty The father doesn't have to accept him and restore him and give him the the ring and the enclave them in a new robe He chooses to do that to the son when he returns home, but he doesn't have to he's not obligated to do that He chooses to do that because he's gracious in the same way god's not obligated To cause believers to be born again He chooses to do so graciously And so it's a gracious act of god to clothe us in the righteousness of his son when we come But it's still our responsibility to come Okay, so well, let let me do this because I want to um Go ahead and I need to find that other passage out of I think it's tim I know it's peter that talks about how we're born with uh by the by the preaching of the word And so it actually it actually and I thought it was that passage and I was that's what I was looking for Because it actually says he brings us alive through the preaching of the word So it's through believing through the preaching of the word That we are brought to new life and uh, it's not that passage, but I need to look it up But I don't see I believe I believe that he uses that He uses the preaching of the word. He uses our faith to bring us in but it's still the the cause of this Um the moving of this matter of fact, this will bring me to one of the questions that are that I ask And I want to start grabbing some of these questions Um And so the question is this terry asks this question If no one can come to jesus unless they are drawn by god I know you've covered plenty of times if no one can come to jesus or god unless they are drawn And all that are drawn are taught by god verse 45 and all that are taught by god come to him Who is in hell? Um, I'm not sure I understand the question God draws Yeah, god draws or gives um or grants Well, let's do this. Let me ask you. Let me just let's just do this. Let's just go to john 644 I know you covered this a lot Let's go to john 644 and let let's get let's get your take on it No one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him And I will raise him in the last day. It is written in the prophets And they shall all be taught of god everyone who has heard and learned from the father comes to me So your your interpretation of that passage is is what? Well throughout this This chapter you see it back up in verse 37 as well. All that the father gives me will come to me And that is a is a rebuke of the unbelievers that are in his audience. His audience are there to to fill their bellies They're not there for the right reasons or right motivations Um, he says you've seen me but you do not believe and then he goes on to rebuke them by saying All that the father gives me will come to me and if they come to me I will know why I cast them out and so the giving of the father To the son is the same verbiage that you see in verse 44 And it's the same it's the same pattern. Uh, they they grumble and unbelief and then he rebukes them again by saying Uh, you know, no one can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him and I will raise them up on the last day And so he's he's rebuking them for their unbelief, which again is repeated In verse 64 and 65 He says he knows from the beginning which one of them believe in which ones don't And then he rebukes him and he says this is the reason I told you That no one can come to me unless it's been granted by the father And so he actually uses three different verbs there given a drawn and granted And who does he give draw a grant? Who does god the father give draw a grant to his son? Well, those who believe and so you got to remember at this time There are people who genuinely will genuinely believe in god, but they're not being granted to come to the son Let me let me I'm if I understand you I'm gonna let you continue But you said that he he draws those that come Those that believe are the ones that he draws Right like verse 45 it says all who have listened and learned from the father In other words, all who have believed in me the father will come to the son Because the father and the son are one In other words the emphasis throughout the book of john is the unity of the father and the son If you believed moses you would believe me because he spoke about me If you followed god and you believed in him and you listened to his voice as his sheep Then you would recognize my voice because he and I are the same The reason you don't believe is because you're not a follower You're not a sheep You're not a follower of god If you followed god if you listen and learn from the teaching of god the father Then you would follow me you would believe me Which is exactly what he's getting into in john chapter 6 with those three repeated phrases All that the father gives me will come to me no one can come to me unless they're drawn And you can't come unless it's been granted by the father and who is the father going to give to his son Those who have listened and learned from him He's not going to just give everybody the son because Especially while he's incarnate that wouldn't fulfill his mission. And so He's not entrusting himself to everyone and john chapter 2 He said there are many who followed him But he would not entrust himself to them because he knew their their the intentions of their heart were not pure Right, he knew he knew what they were there for And the same way john and john 6 he knows that they're not there for the right reasons They're there following him for the wrong reasons Which is why I think he speaks in parabolic language and symbolism mark 4 explains this where he says he only speaks to them using parables speaking of the jewish crowds And uh, he does this in order to keep them from seeing hearing understanding and turning so as to be healed In order to bring about his crucifixion as first uh, krentians 2 7 and 8 says that the the that the the truth has been hidden from the ruler's eyes. Otherwise, they would never would have crucified the lord of glory And so the the purpose the strategic purpose of using parabolic language and symbolism like eat my flesh and drink my blood To these jewish crowds Was to hide his identity as mark 9 9 says are coming down from the mountain of transfiguration And he says don't tell anybody yet who I am Only after I'm raised up Well, the son of man is raised up then you can tell them The this these things you can talk about it, but it's not the right time Don't tell anybody and you see this repeated throughout the gospels where he tells them not to tell anybody yet It's not the right time Well, this goes to john 12 32 When I am lifted up I will draw all men to myself now notice. That's a different drawing It's not the father doing a drawing in john 12. It's jesus doing a drawing to himself And there's a shift that takes place there because after the gospel is fulfilled Then he sends the gospel to go out through his disciples and he institutes the church age Where now he's drawing all men to himself through the means of the gospel The father's doing the drawing through the means of the scripture and moses And the teachings of the father previous to that so that anyone who listens and learns from the father is obviously going to be drawn On to believe in his son But those who ignore his teaching and those who refuse his teaching can grow harden and callous Which is really the condition of many of the jews of that day who've become callous They've closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see here understand and turn and I would heal them Therefore I take the message of the Gentiles as he says in acts 28 Okay, so it also says that in john 12 too by the way the the rebuke of the israelites that they cannot believe because Now god is hardening their hearts and blinding their eyes because of their continual rebellion So, okay, so let me let's let me go back go back to john six um Jesus said to them i'm the bread of life. He who comes to me Will not hunger and he who believes in me will never thirst But I say but I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe You do you do not believe but he says all that the father gives Uh, and then I noticed though in the terms issues. We have uh, all the father's good This now for the father's giving it's in the present act of indicative The father is given to me He says will come So every last one that he's given he says, I don't know that there's a way to get past that the ones that have given That he's given I'm not trying to get past that. I know I know you now. I know you're not. I know you're not but they're gonna be I believe that he is he's he's giving but it's a question whether he's giving unconditionally Well, here's why I say here's why I say so um And those that are the ones that are coming to me he will in no way And this is the most emphatic way to say an ume ekbalo so they they can never ever ever be cast out I think this proves the the the eternal security part Because I have come down from I'm I'm sorry. I'm looking at the greek trying to read it in english Uh, I've come down from heaven not to do my own will but of the will of him Here it is verse 39 This is the will of him who sent me that all that he has and this word right here is the the troubling one The word is the perfect tense the doken. So this is the perfect tense to some that he has done in the past It's a complete action from the past. So all that he has given Well, all that he's he's currently giving the ones that he has given He he is it's a present active parts about him giving In in verse 37, but in verse 39 it is the perfect tense So those that he's that he's giving at the time of jesus making a statement He also states that those have been given in the past and so It could not mean that the ones that are being given are the ones that are making these decisions Absent him he it seems to say that he has given those people to the sun And all those that he has given Which is before them making their decision. He says they will come How is You're confusing two different two different times of believing simian, for example Did not know who jesus was of nazareth, but he was a god-fearing man who believed in god. He was a righteous man Would we agree with that? Right? Would the father give simian to jesus? With would the father give simian the believer a god-fearing man who already believes in god Would he give him to jesus? Well, see we have two different we have different different dispensation. So we have um those of those who are jewish Who who and by the way the same faith believing in god where there would be what what what christ toning work was on the cross the atonement under the old um prior to or i'm sorry after the fall before the flood after the flood before um the the law Faith in god is is is the key Having that sort of faith and simian was one like that who had faith And so yes at some point in time he will if he if he has faith He's one of the same ones who will be given to the son now how so Doesn't say because there's old testament sayings who died also who are also going to be part of this flock of christ as well So i'm not did i answer that? Yes, and so i'm just giving you an example Cornelius would be the example of a Gentile god-fearing man who was explained in acts Acts chapter 10 as a man who gave alms. He prayed the Angel came and said, you know the lord has seen your prayers and they've become up as a memorial in his nostrils these kinds of things And so in other words, he's he's giving him to the son by sending him the gospel And so he needs to know about jesus. He doesn't know jesus yet and even says in chapter 11 He did this so they could be saved and receive the spirit And so he's a believer in god a god-fearing man who's being given to jesus And so that proves that at least with semen and cornelius That there's a giving of the father to the son. That's not an unconditional giving He's giving people of faith To his son So those who already believe in the father and there were many of them there many god-fearing jews and gentiles not not as many as There weren't i mean obviously most of the Israelite people were not Following god and not believing at least while he was on earth It's not until after the resurrection and the pentecost that we have the 3000 Who come to faith and and I think that's largely due to this the hiddeness of the messiah where he's not revealing himself to everyone He's not entrusting himself to everyone at this time because he's keeping His identity in the dark so as to to get to the cross and so And I think it's pretty Pretty obvious in scripture. I've even got a sermon by piper mccarthur both Acknowledging aspects of this even within the calvinistic world view of of of jesus hiding his identity for this strategic purpose Of getting to the cross and so a lot of people are that's news to them And you'll see the people in the side check on what i'm not following Listen when you haven't studied somebody's position before you don't know where they're coming from It's very easy to get lost in what they're saying and and what I would just encourage you to do is really take time To really objectively evaluate what other people believe Before you make a judgment call on what they're saying and and that's what I would say in this situation Is that this is the time where jesus is still on earth? He's speaking to them in parables. He only speaks to the crowds Jewish crowds according to mark 4 34 in parables And he does it lest they see here understand in turn and I would heal them So he's in other words. He is purposefully using difficult symbolic language In order to keep them in the dark and he's only entrusting himself to those who genuinely Listen and learn from the father who who actually are true believers men likes him in or or You know the at least 11 of his apostles With the who are genuine believers because you go on reading you hear what peter said and peter says we've already come to Believe in you. Where else are we gonna go? We already know who you are. We already know where you're from And so peter is a contrast to the rest of the jews in that crowd who were there for the wrong reasons and and these these Jesus is pointing that out and he's rebuking an unbelieving crowd for their unbelief reminding them. They they're not given to him They're not given to come to him as the as the incarnate christ And he's not drawing all of them to him It's only after he's raised up that he will draw all men to himself as john 12 32 says, okay, let me do this I want to um and I want to Because you and I we can we can go here for another three or four hours, but let me ask some of these other people's questions to you federal ex theology Who my brother who is 1689 Baptist. I'm always calling that he says Psalm 65 for so let's let's go to Psalm 65 for And it says blessed or how blessed is the one Whom you chose whom you choose and bring near to you to dwell to dwell in your courts Um, he will he be satisfied with the goodness of your house your holy temple. So I I'm imagining I'm going to have my I know what he's getting yet So how do you take that? Do you is this also an example of god of god's choosing? Or is this pretty this is always it's always interesting to me because when I was a calvinist I did the same thing when I would see the word choose or elect I automatically just assumed it was about Calvinistic choosing it was like an unconditional choice of people before they're ever born for reasons. We just don't know And instead of assuming that I have to establish it in the text and the text doesn't say Who he's choosing and why he's choosing him and so he very well could be talking about For example, I believe in election Who does he elect in the parable of the the banquet? He chooses those who come in response to the invitation clothed in the right wedding garments And so it is not conditioned upon their merit or their nationality, but it is conditioned on something What is it their faith in jesus and so if he says he chooses somebody that doesn't necessarily Automatically mean calvinism and that he chose them arbitrarily before they were born It could be that he he is talking about his choice of those who are humble and contrite You you see isaias 662. These are the ones I look on with favor Those with a humble and contrite heart who tremble at my word and so there's no secret as to who god favors Psalm 25 it says who are those who fear the lord? He will guide them in the way that they should choose he will reveal his covenant to them And so who does he reveal his covenant to those who fear him those who trust in him? And so you can't just grab a verse out of out of the context and say Oh, look see he chose somebody therefore he must have chosen unilaterally before they were born It needs the text has to actually say that exactly what I was saying with is equal 38 Just because it says he will give them new life Doesn't mean that he's going to unilaterally pick certain people and give them new life He could be talking about the fact that he's going to give new life to those who trust in him Who who humble themselves in his presence as it says in musical 18 Uh, let me give you this question kneeling says dr. Flowers. Why can't god predetermine outcomes and the freedom to choose to exist in the same world? Why can't god do it? You know, I don't believe what I believe. That's what he does Yeah But I'm saying his point is the in the Calvinistic way him choosing some Even even if we use your your verbiage Uh unilaterally, um or arbitrarily, however Can he do that? Well, I would yeah Again, I said the exact question of how he phrased the question But I do believe god is bringing about his plans and purposes and people sometimes they don't think that I believe god determines anything Or they think free will is a superpower that's going to thwart god or something on our view We're it's amazing how how many false things we're accused of believing Just simply because you believe in human responsibility or the the ability to make choices between available options That god gives us, you know, in other words, god created us with this capacity Not that we're out in the tool shed building ourselves a free will or something now god gave us the ability to deliberate and make choices But the choices we make aren't going to thwart god's overall plan and his purposes God's going to bring about his purpose and his plan even when we do the wrong things And we go against his will because he's big enough to bring about good And his purpose is despite all the choices that we end up making god doesn't have to determine our choices in order to ensure his victory He's just he's big enough and strong enough that he can bring about his victory despite what all us little peons do here on earth And so our gods our gods very powerful and very sovereign He's not shocked off his throne as we're accused of believing like he's just surprised and wringing his hands Oh, I sure hope everything works out, you know kind of thing Our view of sovereignty is is in my estimation much higher than a deterministic or calvinistic view of sovereignty Because it's not god determining the evil in order to bring about his plan, but it's god Overcoming evil and redeeming evil in order to bring about his plan And so I don't think god needs to control both sides of the chess board in order to ensure a victory I think god can actually play real opponents And because he's just so better much better at chess than they are that he's able to to win the victory Okay, and guys if you are if you're wondering I'm not I'm not going to be pushing back on on any of you guys's questions that that late would answer because I want to give your give give him time to answer your questions and get as many guys in here As we came before we leave napid asks The question is why won't the unregenerate come either either a cannot or will not why so his question is Why why would not an unregenerate person come? I think you might be answering you that asking you that question Because I know him But why I think he's asking you Oh, okay. Okay. Well dog on a nathan. You need to specify you talking to the bald head guy No, the reason why an unregenerate person won't come or will come they they can I listen I I'm not I'm not I'm not what uh, I guess you would think I don't think that a person cannot come Again, we've seen in scripts people have have come to him. The issue is why won't they come and stay One of the interesting things about a christian the bible describes a christian Uh in most most often except sometimes Grammatically the greek won't support it being used in a participle But most often uh in a parcel with the and I'm just saying with the ing just the the believing the the hearing the following Most often is used that way because that's how god sees true believers. That's how that's how we're describing the bible But can a person believe Temporarily, I believe so I believe a person can intellectually say, you know what that makes sense to me. I agree. I'm not a good person Yeah, I I just I just I just cheated on my wife. I just stole some money. I just I just robbed the bank I just ran a red light. I just whatever And I know I was wrong. I feel bad for this like a dog a dog does something wrong Head down tail between his leg. I did wrong. But now would you pat my head? I feel better And so I think a person can do so. I think a person can on their own Say, yeah, you know what god is good. I'm bad. Forgive me lord. I need it And then here comes monday Or tuesday and they're back to so I think a person can come I think an undivided person can come the issue is not the coming The issue is the staying and I think the regeneration of the heart gives the person the ability to stay otherwise No one without that heart being Changed and being made new You you will not not that you cannot just that you will not and so I think that as god looks throughout the lens of time He sees sure all you guys can come every last one you can come But then if he doesn't do anything there will be I don't know Let's say 15 16 billion people that have ever lived on this planet There will be 15 16 billion souls in hell And not one with him. So what does he do? Well, I think he's simultaneously simultaneously like he says in romans Will show his love and his wrath and pour out on some does that mean that he predestined some to hail? No, because second second peter three Uses the word for wishes is not the word phalo is this is bulimai which means he's not Planning or putting you in hail you're there on your own And so I think the unregenerate heart can do what it what the unregenerate heart wants to And what does the unregenerate heart wants to do any and everything that's not godly That's that's my take let me go another question I've got a and I feel bad guys. I'm not going to be able to answer all or get all your questions to him Let's go to milio milio says If god knows all who will or won't believe then why would christ die for all he who all he knew would never believe What would be the purpose of that? Can you see those questions late? Yeah, yes, I can One I would just say the bible doesn't answer the question with regard to You know why god does what he does based upon what he knows we will do that gets into molinism Uh, it gets into the dynamic Open theism views and all the different philosophical debates that come along with that and determinism is another philosophical view that's That's in the mix there and so you got determinists indeterminists. You've got molinists You've got the dynamic guys all of them are debating. How does god's knowledge work? This goes back even to the sixth century with the consolation of philosophy written by boethias where he's trying to tackle this This huge issue of how can we be free? But god knows everything prior to us existing or us being created or these kinds of concepts And there are philosophers who are going to do what they're going to philosophize and they're going to give you Things are solutions to that problem. Some of them land on determinism Well, because god knows all things he must have been the determiner of all things And everything that comes to pass is according to his script his decree He's he's bringing to pass according to his plan and purpose Others say no that he has created people with libertarian freedom And the reason he knows what they will choose to do is because he's at a present at all times in all places Above time sias lewis takes this position for example. He says Uh, he he's not determining what you will choose to do But he knows all things because he's at all places at all times But you're you're genuinely free and the circumstances in time to make the choices that you end up making Doesn't mean that you're it's absent god's God's knowledge or his decree because god's decreed for you to be able to make that choice freely So you're not counter veiling the sovereign will of god when you make a free choice Because it's his sovereign will that the choice you make is a free one And so that's that's one perspective that you'll hear and that's like I said Or the sias lewis outside of time kind of perspectives And then you can get in the dynamic perspective about the limited amount of god's knowledge or a even restriction of his knowledge Of all things in order to make it logically possible for people to have freedom. I don't see a necessity for that. I don't agree Uh necessarily with all the different Arguments from those perspectives But I see the value in why people have these discussions because we're trying to get our finite mind Around the things of god now the best answer I found that I that I'm content with is that from john linux and many that don't know john linux he's Got three degrees in mathematics and science and one of the best apologists that's ever lived in my estimation And he's also written the book determined to to believe this is a really good defense of what I believe Theologically sociology as well for those that are looking for one besides my books, of course, you know But um, but I will say that what he says is I don't know how God created something from nothing But I believe that he did and there's a difference between how and that I don't know how god does something, but I know that he does Well, I don't know how god knows the moral choices i'm going to make tomorrow But I believe that he does yeah And and it seems like the calvinist is trying to step in and go and the the way god knows what you're going to do tomorrow Is because he's decreed what you're going to do tomorrow He's the one who's determined it and and again not all calvinists say the same thing by the way I'm talking about piper edwards the leading calvinists that are theistic determinists by their own admission They say that the only way god can really know it is if he's determined it And and they think that's a philosophical necessity for god is that god ultimately has decreed my moral choices tomorrow I don't believe that the bible ever tells us that so I don't hold to that view I believe that he knows what i'm going to do tomorrow freely But he's not the one who's determined what i'm going to do tomorrow And i'm okay with not knowing how he does that just like i'm okay with not knowing how he creates something from nothing So I can believe that something's true i.e. I make free choices that god knows And I don't have to know how god does that And i'm still okay with the mystery that's within the secret council of an infinite all knowing god Along those lines. I want to i'm gonna give you two questions back to back that way I can go take care of something behind this camera um the first question I'm going to put on the screen and then as you're answering that question I'm going to put the next question up. So once you're finishing answering this question You can go ahead and go to a jamie ask question for for you Where's it at? Oh Why do people agree with calvinism now as you're answering that question? I'm going to put up the next question Um for you to answer. So as you're answering that question the next question you ask is going to be right here Okay, let me let me answer the first question. Why do people agree with calvinism? If calvinism is true at least as piper and edwards and john calvin taught it The the reason you would agree with calvinism if calvinism is true is because god decreed you to In other words, you made the decision to accept calvinism because god decrees whatsoever comes to pass on the calvinistic system So if calvinism is true, the reason you're a calvinist is because god Decreed you to be a calvinist Now what's the problem with that is if if calvinism is true god decreed for me to be a calvinist At least some form of calvinist for 10 years of my life and then to adopt provisionism and to teach on this topic in other words If if calvinism is true the reason i'm not a calvinist is for whatever reason god's determined me not to be Which doesn't seem to be very tenable Tim stratton makes an argument for the the deity of deception Argument where he basically argues that if you have a false theological belief and determinism is true i.e. god decrees whatever comes to pass Then you ultimately have to believe that god decrees some of his children to believe false things about himself and about doctrine And that's not a tenable or rational way of living nor is it good representation of the character of god that he would deceive his own children to believe A false theology and so i don't think that that's a rational way to live life That's one of the reasons you've got a lot of modified or softer forms of calvinist That actually affirms some element of libertarian freedom because when you Whole hardly hold on to determinism It really does begin to fall apart on itself in my estimation Now the second question you'll have to put back up there because I think I missed that one Um, how many of your neighbors are born again? My guess is not many. Why is that so sir? Why is it that you believe and are saved and they do not? Oh, I thought he was about to get on to me for not witnessing to my neighbors and I was going to say How you don't know me very well because I've actually had You know the question is why how what what why you write about you? Yeah, why'd you why'd you come to christ and they didn't? Yeah, um, I guess I give me a chance to promote my book because I have an appendix that asks that very question But guess what you don't have to buy my book to get the answer because I actually have several videos asking that question And an article at sociology 101 that if you typed in the word friend It would come up because the word friend is a unique enough word You'll find it in search feature because the question is why did you believe in jesus and your friend did not? And it's a commonly asked question I used it a lot when I was a calvinist to convert people into calvinism And basically if you really think about the question the question is what determined you to believe And what determined your friend not to believe and whether you recognize it or not you're Kind of begging the question because you're assuming a deterministic answer is required I believe that the the cause of an action is the actor the cause of a determination is the determiner So i'm the one who makes a determination based upon influences And so whatever factors you may think are out there like you may say well it's your personality or your intelligence or Your humility or this this and this and I've said no those things can all be influences My parents can be influences on my life or christian godly parents A friend of mine who gave me a bible could be an influence. Those aren't determinative factors Those are influential factors that I may list in my testimony as reasons. I came to faith But I am the one who determined that decision And so I am the cause of my choice And that is the end of that line there because god has created me as the ability to make those choices And so a lot of determinist mindsets once you kind of click on that determinist mindset It's really hard to get out of that mindset. And so you keep asking Yeah, what determines you to do that what determines you to do that as if the agent himself can't make his own determinations And the way that I try to help calvinist understand this is to ask the question back to them Why did god create you did he have to? Because they don't assume that something else is determining god They they understand god is the the final ultimate cause of his choices And what i'm saying is that because god is all powerful And creative he's able to create creatures who have the power to make their own independent choices That doesn't mean that we can make choices that thwart him or that can overpower him. I'm not saying free wills of superpower That causes us to thwart god I'm saying god has given us within our nature a range of ability to make choices that are consistent with Our nature within a created world and we're free to make those choices And so if if you were asking what besides you like and what determined you to make your choice I would say you're question begging but you're assuming a deterministic answer is required I'm responsible for my choices because that's the way god created me to be as a free moral agent It's only calvinist that believe you have to be turned into a better human being In order to believe in jesus in other words, you have to be turned ontologically into a Regenerate man who now sees and hears and has you know Positive feelings about god and love for god only calvinist believe that you have to be changing ontologically by a work of regeneration Into a better quality human being in order to believe in in jesus. We don't believe that We believe god made us in his image as the bill with ability to deliberate and thus anyone can believe in jesus Even a very bad person who's very immoral Can believe in jesus anybody can believe in jesus on on provisionism It's only on calvinism that you have to be picked before you're born and ontologically changed into a new creation Before you can believe in jesus and I don't believe that that's a biblical concept Okay, let me ask this question mitch by the way mitch hope Praying for you and your family, but he says it for you explain proverbs 16 9 and put on the screen The mind of a man plans his way, but the lord directs his steps How would how would you how would you I love? Yeah, I love that passage because it shows how a person has Responsibility to plan his ways to go the direction he wants to go and so you know a believer like myself I can plan my path that is things I want to do throughout my day But it's god who's going to give me the strength who's going to guide me and help me and guide me in my path as I go and so So that's why I would understand that is that I make decisions and plan my ways But it's the lord I rely upon to to guide my steps as I go. He's the one who's carrying me along the way Okay, now I've got I've got one last question that actually you guys on in the chats Can't see because I'm looking at what you guys see and I'm looking at what I see what I see Uh, a person asked a question and it was removed By the moderator, but I but I grabbed it because I want to I want to ask this question because it's going to Leave to something as we as we get ready close because I've got some stuff to do plus you guys we're having a q&a later So I've got some stuff that I got to take care of but here's this question And I'm asking this question. This will be the last question because I know Where Layton's going to go and it'll help us to kind of to kind of leave here Jonathan asked he said well, he made he didn't ask a question He makes a statement which is why I got removed and we don't want this on here But I have an idea of where Layton's going to go with this. He says Calvinism teaches another gospel What would you say about that Layton? Well, this is one of the points that I try to correct The gospel is independent of the independent claims of Calvinistic theology In other words, there's some Calvinists who try to do this too where they'll try to say You know Calvinism is just the gospel the quote from Spurgeon and things like that Which I think is being taken out of context to some degree Um, you can believe the gospel the basics of the gospel that we would you know see and then You know nice and creed and many of the other things that we would hold very much in common And and not even get into the nuances of the tulip systematic And so oftentimes I can I can see how a particular doctrine like Calvinistic theology can affect how you understand the gospel But the gospel itself is independent of those Those statements of tulip And so that that's one of the reasons that I I think that we can still fellowship with one another who disagree with us Theologically because I hold in common that Jesus is the Christ the son of the living god And that through faith and believe in him You we will be saved and it's that Christ is the only way to the father We hold things in common that are that cause us in that sense to be brothers in Christ that love each other And so we have that common gospel by which we would go to our neighbors and proclaim the truth to them together And that we would even worship together and say this is the the god that we love and that we worship But that doesn't mean that it's not important or that we shouldn't talk about things that could possibly hinder the way in which we understand the gospel or Possibly cause people to stumble by teaching something that that is not true of scripture That may cause them to to be distracted from the gospel And that that's true on both sides of the aisle. There there may be things that I believe or hold to That that could cause somebody to stumble And and I should be aware of that and I should be very careful about what I'm saying Lest I cause a little one to stumble because we know what the bible says about that And so so too all of us need to to walk carefully with humility Examining ourselves like good Berean should to see if our theology lines up with the teaching of scripture Amen, let me let me just say this Clearly clearly if you guys don't leave with anything else you you should understand That all of my arguments were right all of latin's were wrong And so you have to leave even late in it when he when he when he stories are going to realize how wrong he was No, I'm kidding. But here's the point guys All we're talking about is the one thing that we agree on that you must believe on christ. You must place your faith in christ Working out how that happens Is something secondary to the main thing have you placed your faith in christ? Otherwise, I don't care if you are provisionist armenian Calvinist I don't care what you are if you haven't placed your faith in christ. You're going to hell That's just now figuring out how that happened and that's all we're doing. That's what provisionists do That's what armenians do. That's what Calvinists do. That's what those who are dispensational who are covenant Whatever it is That's what we're talking about. We're talking about the back end things how these things work how we understand these things Hopefully we do so because we love the lord and we love his word and we just want to get into it Whether we are kind of confused because guess what you're wrong on something I'm wrong on something latin's wrong on something you all there's something Maybe the big thing or small thing who knows but you're wrong on something But the main thing to be right on is christ Do you have christ have you placed your faith? Whether you believe you have to be elected to do so if you believe you have to be elected or chosen to do So and you didn't you're going to hell if you believe that it's on your own According then he chooses you and you don't you're going to hell if you believe you can lose your salvation And you don't have christ you're going to hell if you believe you can lose your salvation Or you cannot that doesn't matter, but you don't have christ you're going to hell. That's the point guys That's the most important thing. So stop with this. These guys are teaching doctrines of demons a different gospel You clearly i'm not trying to be mean, but why won't why don't you first figure out learn what the gospel is That is that salvation has come to us Who don't deserve it by placing our faith in a savior who died in place of us where we did deserve That's the good news guys. That's the great news And so let's leave it at that if we can disagree But you've got to be above 18 21 and agree or disagree like an adult maturely That's still your brother. That's still your sister. Hey man. So guys, I wish I'm sorry. No, what if what if you hate the cowboys though? I mean, do you think jesus would still cover you the grace will cover you if you don't like the dallas cowboys Well, if you're a cowboys fan, that that might listen that might be the unregenerate person I'm I'm thinking but you know what? It could be the person that gets in by the skin of their teeth They get in suffering loss, but not under salvation. Don't tell me you're a cowboys fan. Oh, I'm a huge cowboys fan I thought you knew Listen, I am up. Where's it at? Where's my where's my I am all this time. He thought I was saved until I just told him I was a cowboys fan and now he's doubting Now he's not so sure right here And and by the way, this is biblical. I don't know if you know I do I do like the cults though, too. I do actually I do actually like the cults, too So too does jesus. You know how I know They said go into the town next door or the next town over And get the cult if they asked you why are you taking the cult to say the lord needs to cult praise god Anyway, I like that. I like that. I like that apologetic for the cult You know what I want to do the late at some point in time Uh, I would love to have you back And I would love to have another brother on Who is who is gracious as you are but also the opposite? So I I'd like to I'll talk with you later to see if we if we can work that out because I think this is beneficial helpful Even to those in the chats and we're going to watch it later who might disagree This is I like this kind of stuff. This is this is good because we can agree and disagree But we do so in a mature fashion. I think this is what it's about Hey, this is theology geeking out to the highest level I love it too and and this is one of the things that this the kind of conversation you and I've had today is very Very much similar to the kinds of conversations I have with my Calvinist friends in real life at the starbucks when we're having discussions And so that's why it's so frustrating when I get on social media And I see all the vitriol and the angry voices back and forth when I was like, you know guys We we really can't have these kinds of discussions in a healthy way because I do it all the time I've seen it modeled for us so many times And it is a mark of Christian maturity to be able to disagree with something and someone is to love them It's a mark of every marriage for goodness sake You've got you've got to be able to know how to have disagreements and still love and stay stay around and be Be there for somebody when they need you And so I think that that's the model of true Christian behavior Notice that Jesus says you will know them by their love for each other It doesn't say you'll know them by their doctrinal fidelity on these five points or these 10 points or whatever it is You'll know them about how they treat each other I think that's a huge huge statement within scripture to help us to recognize how we need to be treating one another Even when we disagree. Amen. Well guys, I have got I have to run I had to run about 20 minutes ago But I can push it back But listen guys Take what was stated go search the scriptures go go argue the scriptures. Uh, hopefully this makes you want to go and do some more Uh, defense give more defense of what you believe or what have you but even more than that Let somebody know somebody who you think needs to hear the gospel Let them know what the lord has done for you and that he can do it with them. Amen. Amen