 Good morning, good afternoon, good evening. Wherever you are joining us from, thank you for being here on the career three daughter podcast. This is a podcast where we interview people about their career journey, what made them take those options, what made them miss those choices that they originally thought would be absolutely awesome. Today I have for you a person whose work first changed the way I do presentation. So this is really the person has this role called the 10 2030 role, which means you should never use more than 10 slides, never take more than 20 minutes and use 30 point font, which is probably the one where most people mess up that they use those tiny little fonts at its invisible anywhere else. Besides, of course, the fact that he has been an evangelist for Apple, he's now the evangelist for Canva. He's worked with some of the greatest brands from Mercedes Benz to Google Motorola division, and he's done tons of books. Okay, all right. That is my guest today, Guy Kawasaki. Hey, Guy, welcome. Welcome to the career three daughter podcast. I'm going to first start with your live free Apple days when you are growing up. What did you think you're going to be doing in your year? And because the word evangelist hadn't been invented there. Well, I mean, there was Jesus before me. There was a 2000 year gap. So I grew up in Honolulu, Hawaii from a relatively low income sort of tough neighborhood. Luckily, a teacher convinced my parents to put me in a pre college kind of private school as opposed to the public school system. And if it wasn't for that teacher telling my parents to do that and my parents listening to them, I might not be on your podcast. And so I grew up in Honolulu. I went to Stanford University. I don't know how I got in. And after Stanford, I believe it or not, I went to law school for a grand total of two weeks and I quit. And then I went back to Hawaii. I came back to the mainland and I entered the UCLA MBA program. And while I was there for part time work, I worked for a jewelry manufacturer literally counting diamonds. And after I graduated to the MBA program, I went to work for that jewelry manufacturer when my friends were going to work for Wells Fargo and B of A and, you know, Accenture and McKinsey. And then my college roommate recruited me into the Macintosh division of Apple where I was the second software evangelist. And my job was to convince software developers to create Macintosh products. And the rest is history. I worked in the Macintosh division. I started some tech companies. I returned as Apple's chief evangelist. I left became a writer and a speaker. And now I am chief evangelist of Canva. I'm the host of the Remarkable People podcast. And I just completed a book called Think Remarkable. So, you know, in my book Career 3.0, I have talked about the fact that Career 3.0 has three or more skills monetized in three or more ecosystems. And I thought you should be the poster boy for Career 3.0. Well, listen, I if you really counted, it's more like 6.0. But, you know, I would say that to be fair, I'm probably 2 for 6 or 2 for 8. I don't want people to think I'm 3 for 3. I am not 3 for 3. Yeah, how do you manage your time? Because one of the biggest problems that people have is when you land up doing multiple things, they're always worried that, you know, they aren't enough hours in the day. How do you manage? Well, I'm 69 years old and I like I wish I could sleep longer. I couldn't sleep longer if I tried. And quite often I'm working. I wake up at four or five o'clock in the morning and I start, you know, working. And I can't tell you that I'm one of these like get things done, you know, totally organized, prioritize that I do the most important things first and then I get the big tasks done. And then I, you know, then I start checking email and social media. I'm a very bad example. I check email and social media before I even get out of bed. I'm not a good example of being organized and disciplined. But what I am a good example of is grit. So I can work a long time, very hard. And when I get focused, there is absolutely no stopping me. Imagine if I had organization skills and discipline, and you add that to my grit, man, I would really be super productive. But I am productive despite my poor choice of priorities. Yeah. Remind me again, how many books have you done with the poor choice of priorities? I have published 16 books starting in 1987. What is that? That is 37 years, right? So 37 years, let's call it 40 years, 16 books. So one book every two and a half years. Wait, that's not so shabby, right? That's terrific. But what's the process of writing? My process of writing, I am a big word power user. So I really use word. And the first thing as I do, I spend about four to six months just working on the outline. And when I get the outline done, so it's chapter heading sub hitting. So when I get that level of granularity, that's when I start writing. And then I just pour in everything. And then that takes about six months. And then the next six months is purely editing. And I edit and edit and edit and edit. I make thousands of changes to my manuscript. When you looked at Remarkable People, which is your latest book, and I absolutely loved it. I wrote a review of that. So those of you who are interested in looking at it, there's a review of it on my LinkedIn newsletter with a couple of little cartoons and all that. You can see a caricature guide that I made there and you can see that. This is of course a byproduct of what you learn from the podcast that you host Remarkable People. I want to take a minute and sort of go back to this meeting that you had with Jane Goddall. What was the very first meeting like? And I know you wrote the book. So talk to me about that. Yeah, you see that picture. That's the first time that I met Jane Goodall. So it's on a stage at the TEDx Palo Alto. And she had accepted big speech for TEDx Palo Alto. And the director of TEDx Palo Alto called me up and she knew of me because of my Macintosh work. You know, I didn't know her personally, but she knew who I was. And she asked me if I would interview Jane Goodall. And of course I said yes. And that's how Jane Goodall and I became friends. And you know, funny, you should mention that because today's Tuesday where I am. And tomorrow night, my wife and I are going to Jane Goodall's birthday party in San Francisco. Please do wish her a very happy birthday from now all alone. Absolutely. You know, you work with some really remarkable people as well. And you know, you've interviewed tons of people. I want to sort of jog your memory back to going to bring up the photograph from the Apple days. You know, there are two photographs here. What's the story behind those two photographs? The photograph in the upper right corner, that's an Apple photograph of the Macintosh division. And you probably can't see it, but I'm up in the upper left hand corner. And I should have been smart and stood in the front. But I was dumb back then. And then the photo in the bottom left corner is the Macintosh division. About 40 years later, we had a reunion. This is after Steve had died. So in that picture, I'm in the bottom left corner in the front because in 40 years, I learned to stand in the front when taking a group shot. What was Steve Jobs' life to work with? This was a really new role and Apple was at that point of time, not what Apple is today. Yeah. You know, Steve Jobs was, it was scary actually. He was a very tough boss, very demanding. Having said that, I tell you something, I have no regrets over working for him. I would not be where I am were it not for Steve Jobs. I owe him much of my career. He was scary. He was intimidating. He wasn't, you know, this kind of touchy feely people person. And yet he got the best out of many, many people. And I don't know anybody who regrets working for Steve Jobs. Now, having said that, let's just be honest. He was an asshole, but I have become an expert in assholes. And I don't mean in the medical proctology sense. I mean, assholes in terms of people. And there are two kinds of assholes. So one asshole is an eagle driven asshole. And all he cares about is me, myself and I, glorification of the person. The other kind of asshole is a mission driven asshole. And Steve was a mission driven asshole. He was on a mission to create Macintosh, a great computer, increase people's creativity and productivity. And he would tolerate no bullshit and no second hand, you know, substandard efforts. So he would run over people. And I'll tell you something that a mission driven asshole is a very good experience at least once in your lifetime. Now I'm not trying to suggest that in order to be successful, you have to be an asshole. And I have proof that that's not true because I work for Canva now. And Melanie Perkins is the antithesis of Steve Jobs, but she has also built an extremely successful company. So you don't need to be an asshole to be successful. Steve was a mission driven asshole. And Melanie is a mission driven, wonderful person. People say that you need to have psychological safety to be able to work with creative people, bring out their best in terms of creativity, et cetera. How did that work? Because, you know, Apple had so many different products and, you know, that's what kept the filing bringing in so much. And yet with Steve Jobs, there would be very limited version of psychological safety. How did that work? I think that the concept of psychological safety developed after Steve Jobs died. I cannot say that I ever felt psychologically safe. I'm working for the Macintosh Division. No, maybe the other people did, but man, I certainly did it. Psychological safety. That would not be two words I would use to describe working in for the Macintosh Division, quite frankly. In your book, Remarkable People, you actually talk about an incident with Steve about the Think Different campaign. Talk to us about that. Okay, so this is 1997 and the Think Different campaign is about to start. It features people like Pablo Picasso and Amir Ehrhardt, Richard Branson, Albert Einstein. And the thinking was that if you were using a Macintosh, it was because you're creative and innovative and, you know, you have a growth mindset. And if you didn't use a Macintosh, it was because you just, you know, sort of defaulted to whatever somebody else picked for you. You were thinking same, not thinking different. And so when this ad campaign was first introduced to the Apple marketing team, it was a room with maybe, I don't know, 10 or 20 marketing people, me and Steve, and the person from the age as he came and showed us the ads. At the end, he says to Steve, I have two copies of this commercials and I'm going to give you one, Steve, and I'm going to give the other one to Guy. And Steve says, don't give one to Guy. Give them both to me. So I spoke up. I said, Steve, what's the matter? Don't you trust me? And Steve said, yeah, Guy, I do not trust you. So now this was one of those moments in life where you're either going to look back and you're going to say, why did I wimp out? Why was I a little mouse, meek little mouse? So in real time, when he said, I don't trust you, Guy, I asked, what's the matter? Don't you trust me? And Steve said, no, I don't trust you. And I said, that's okay, Steve, because I don't trust you either. And that probably cost me tens of millions of dollars, but it was worth it. So you got no stock options that year. Well, you know, like, but on the other hand, I can tell this great story. That's worth something. When you had this kind of an exchange, what was it like the next day when you worked with him? I didn't see him for a while. He wasn't in every day. But you know what? Years later, he offered me another job at Apple and I turned him down. Now, if I had stayed either of the two times I quit or taken that job, probably be a lot richer. If I had stayed at Apple from 1983 till today, which is 41 years, I would not have nearly the interesting life that I've had as an entrepreneur, failed entrepreneur, speaker, podcaster. You know, if you work for Apple, they really control you. You can't have a podcast and you can't be making speeches that you single handedly decide to take or not take. If you're part of the Apple machine, they control where you can speak, what you can say, what you can do, all that kind of stuff. And let's just say that I've had no such constraints on me since I left in 1997. So is it that there are people who are free spirited who shouldn't ever think of working in organizations? Well, I mean, let's not generalize that to all organizations, but if you work for Apple, Apple has very strict confidentiality policies and what you can say, you can't even tell your wife what you're working on. I can't tell your husband what you're working on. On the other hand, you know, you get compensated very well, you're working on cool stuff, you get to tell people you work for Apple. I mean, it's all a trade off. So listen, hallelujah. I mean, different strokes for different folks. How does one make that choice early in one's career? Because, you know, when you're growing up, people have very fuzzy ideas about who they are, what kind of places they want to work in, and what's the right time to change your job? How would you help people? I know that. Listen, I don't want to give you the impression that I know the answers to all these questions. Okay. And actually, I would make the case that if someone's on your podcast and professes to know all the answers to those kind of questions, you should probably run away from that person. I think there are so many factors in making a decision about your career that there's no way that I can just address them all. And there's so many things like how far away is the company? How old are your kids? Is your spouse going to raise the kids? Or are you going to share it? Or are you going to raise the kids? Are you taking care of your parents? So, you know, you're taking care of two generations. Do you have some other passions in life, nothing to do with work? That's really your meaning of existence. I mean, it's very, very complicated. So, it's not as simple as well. Yeah, this is when you should quit your job. This is when you should stay. And if anybody tells you it's a simple decision, again, I'll tell you something. You should run from that person. That's absolutely legend because in my book, Korean Street Auto, I say Korean is your journey through life. You know, so you cannot decide in isolation pretty much exactly what you said. You might have an awesome job opportunity, but you can't take it or the other way around. So, yeah, as Steve Jobs himself said, you can only connect the dots looking backwards, right? Yeah. And I'll tell you one more thing that I noticed when I interviewed all these remarkable people which I put in the book, rather than focusing on just making the right decision, you know, with all the data and the AI and all this stuff. What's really more important is not trying to make the perfect right decision, but it's making whatever decision you made, you make it right because the perfect decision is an illusion. There's no way you know the perfect decision. And so, you make your best shot and then just focus on making whatever decision you made right. And if that means staying at Apple, then you make that decision right. If it means quitting, you make that decision right. That's the hard part. That's what you should do. What mean quitting something hard for you, regardless of where you quit from? Every time I quit something, it was to pursue what I perceived as a bigger, more interesting opportunity. So I left the jewelry business to get into the software business. That software company, I only stayed at for six months because it was acquired by a company in Atlanta, Georgia. And I was not going to go live in Atlanta, Georgia. So, you know, in the sense, I didn't have a choice. I quit and I went to work for Apple. And then eventually I quit Apple to start a software company. I did that and then I returned to Apple and then I quit Apple and then I started two more companies and then, you know, then candle found me and it's, I don't want to give people the impression that I knew exactly what I was doing at any given moment. A lot of it is just like blind dumb shit luck to tell you the truth. How did you decide that this is a good company that I've enjoyed myself? What's your way of saying that? This is awesome. For me, the companies that I've stayed at the longest, enjoyed the most, they make something that I personally use, right? So I obviously use the Macintosh and I make a lot of presentations. I make all my presentations in Canva and then I export to PowerPoint and I make social media graphics for my books and all these kind of things. So for me, the test is, do you love using what you are selling? And you know, I was a Mercedes Benz brand ambassador. It's easy to be that. So that's my test. Do you love what your company is selling? What makes you so successful at being a brand evangelist? Because almost every company tries to replicate that. If somebody wants to be a brand evangelist, yeah. Okay, I'm gonna tell you the secret to evangelism that I think one of the few people in the world qualified to answer that question. And the answer is called Guy's Golden Touch. Now, don't jump to the conclusion that Guy's Golden Touch means that everything I touch turns to gold. Guy's Golden Touch is whatever his gold guy touches. So the key here is to understand that the key to evangelism is it's really easy to evangelize good stuff and it's hard to evangelize crap. So find or create or affiliate with great stuff and evangelism is easy. And you know, that sounds like dog guy, of course that's true. But I mean, there are some things that it's not great stuff. And you cannot evangelize it. It is not good news. Evangelism comes from a Greek word meaning bringing the good news. So there's some stuff that just isn't good news or there's some stuff that isn't good news to the people that you're targeting, right? So I could have never become an evangelist for Windows because I didn't think it was great. I don't know. It's not like Microsoft ever recruited me, but I just couldn't do it. I didn't love it. When you think about your presentation, say I want to spend a couple of minutes looking at your 10, 20, 30, which I personally learned so much from and I use it diligently, you know, so I just love that makes all the difference, especially the 30 font, because otherwise people at the back never get to read what you've said. Yep. How do you prepare for a presentation if somebody says you need to talk to people about great? How would you go about structuring a 10, 20, 30 rule? Yeah. Well, you know, I have a library of presentations and every one of them has 10 key points. And so what I do is let's say I had to write a speech about how to be a remarkable podcaster. And then I had to write a speech about how to be a remarkable evangelist or how to be a remarkable innovator or how to be a remarkable leader, right? So I take my slide presentation and I just changed the 10 points. And the nature of my presentations is it's a white text on black background. The text size is probably 90 points. I use really big text and there's only maybe three to five words per page. And sometimes I use pictures, but often I don't. And see my test, Nancy Duarte, who's an expert in presentations and does many of the Apple presentations with the Apple people, she has what's called the glance test. And the way the glance test works is when you're in a presentation, you glance at the slide and two seconds later, you read all the words, you know what it's about. And you're back to looking at the speaker because what you want is you want people watching you, you want people watching you not looking at the slide saying, oh, okay, I got to read these three paragraphs and these four bullets and then I got to understand what's that bar graph and what's the legends on the bar graph. And meanwhile, the speaker's over there talking and you're not listening or you're not hearing and you're still trying to figure out the slides. Slides have to pass the glance test. It's about you want people to glance at your slide and look back at you, not study the slide. And one of the easiest ways to enforce that upon yourself is big font. It's that simple, big font. Real men use big fonts. And that ensures that you can't write three paragraphs on a slide any which way. Nope, you really cannot. When you interviewed people on your podcast, what is your criteria to interview someone? How do you know that this person would be a guest? Yeah, well, so my podcast is called Remarkable People and my book is called Think Remarkable. Now, I'm very specific about that word. It's not rich people. It's not famous people. It's remarkable people. So the question is, what is remarkable? And to me, remarkable means that you have made a difference in the world, you have made the world a better place. Now, you don't need to be Steve Jobs. You don't need to sell tens of millions of phones or computers. You could be remarkable and make a difference to one person or one classroom or one lake or you could even be yourself. It could be one child that you're helping. And that's the test for me. Now, I want you to know that we get about 10 requests per day to be on my podcast. So let's say we get, I don't know, 200, 2500 requests a year, we actually take only 52, right, 52 weeks a year. So that means like, it's somewhere between one in 10 or one in 50 someplace along those lines of the people who asked to be on our podcast, get on our podcast. So I can tell you with great pride that it's harder to get on the Remarkable People podcast than it is to get into Stanford or Harvard. I can completely believe that you've got some of the truly Remarkable People from Angela Duckworth and Tom Peters and a whole lot of people. You had Steve was on your podcast. And what is it like to work with Steve was in contrast with Jobs? Well, I mean, I think Steve Wozniak is kind of the purest form of engineering and a nerd who likes nerdy stuff. And his heart is pure that way. So he's very enjoyable. I mean, in fact, when you get to know him, you're a little concerned that people might take advantage of him. But luckily his wife is this just fantastic woman and truly a guard dog. I mean, you don't get you don't get to Steve without going through Janet and you're not going to get through Janet most likely. When you think about your own work, your ideas work and your creative work, and where do you draw your inspiration from? Is it from the people alone or your reading or travel or no most amount of pop? I don't consider myself creative in the way that most people think of creativity. Like to me, creativity is a great musician who makes a composition out of nothing or a great artist, a painting, a great photo, you know, a great song, great something like that. I am not that kind of creative. So what why I do is I learn a lot from my guests. I learn a lot from my own experiences. And I am able to synthesize from all the data what's important and what the lesson is and put it down on paper. Comparing me to someone who's truly creative like an artist, I don't think I'm nearly as creative as most artists. So it's not like I'm inventing new things like a new genre of film or art or music. So I'm telling you, I just, I know what is good to help people. That's the ability to take 250 interviews of 5,000 pages of transcripts and get it down to the book that you loved. I loved your book also because I like the phrase with which you described the book, which is that this is TikTok not TED Talk. That just describes the style of the book. It all has a consistent format. So let's say I love the chapter on grit for example. You know, you say that this is what grit is all about. If you have these issues, this chapter is for you. How do you think about constructing that chapter on grit? And Jenna Duckworth of course was on your shows. Yeah. Well, I get extensive testing of my book. Like hundreds of people read the draft before I, you know, fully finish it. And my co-authors, Madison Nismar and her sister just graduated from college. Madison and her sister, Tessa, they're kind of my guinea pigs. They're my Gen Z, you know, target market. And so they're telling me that, you know, we don't, we don't want to read 250 pages to get one idea. You know, we want it to come in bite-sized chunks that we can read piece by piece and not have to plow through 250 pages. And then they told me, you know, like sometimes they read a book and they read a chapter and or a section even, and they say, you know, who is this section for? Who is this chapter for? You know, is this relevant to me? I don't want to read 20 pages and find out that this has no use for me. So that led to the fact that every section of the book and there are hundreds of sections. Every section of the book starts off with three questions that help you self-select if you should bother reading the next two pages because I value people's time so much. Listen, if you already have a growth mindset, if you love to try new things, if you are open to being vulnerable because you believe that by being vulnerable, you can become more valuable, more informed, more inspired. If you already have the growth mindset in your head, you don't need to read the growth mindset section. So the growth mindset section starts with if you are unsure of what you want to do, if you are having trouble trying new things, you know, I'm trying to step you through the people who should read that section. And I do that for every section of the book. You talk about your learning new stuff, your learning how to surf and do all of that. Is it harder to learn or do unlearn? If I had to guess, I would say it's harder to unlearn and break a bad habit than to form a good habit. Like I can tell you with surfing that, you know, there's certain bad habits I have developed in surfing. And every time I go out to surf, I say to myself, I'm not going to do that. I'm going to do this thing right. And every time at the end of the session, I say, I made zero progress. I made absolutely no progress. It would be been much better if I never had that bad habit because breaking bad habits is hard, at least for me. So I would say the answer to your question is unlearning bad stuff is harder than learning good stuff. How do you personally, what's your strategy to unlearn? Give me an example of a thing you unlearned successfully. Well, as soon as I figure out, I might tell you, but in the book, there's two people, there's Katie Milkman and there's BJ Fogg. And they both talk about unlearning and, you know, how to get from where you are to where you want to be. So I'll give you one really tactical and practical example from Katie Milkman. So she says like, let's take us something that a lot of people can relate to, which is you want to lose weight, right? Katie's idea is when you want to lose weight, you make a public declaration that by such and such date, you will weigh such and such. And if you don't achieve that, then you have to do something that you absolutely hate, right? That you would never do this. So I don't know if you want to get political, but I'll tell you mine. So I'm trying to lose weight because the less weight you carry, the less weight you have to paddle, which makes surfing easier. So I told Katie and I've told my family that by June 1st, I want to weigh 183 and a half pounds. Let's call it 185. I want to weigh 185 by June 1st. And I told them if I'm not 185 on June 1st, I'm going to donate $750 to the Donald Trump campaign. And believe me, there is nothing I would like to do less than support Donald Trump. So that's my motivation for losing weight. If you actually look at the three sections, instead of sequence, you talk about a growth mindset, you talk about grit and grace, as three of the things that make people remarkable. Is there a sequence in which this moves or do all of these simultaneously? No, I think it's more or less a sequence because when you're young, I mean, that's the easiest time to have a growth mindset, right? Because you don't know what you don't know. There's no bad habits to break or fewer bad habits to break. And the world is your oyster and you want to try all kind of new things. And then once you find things that you're interested in, then grit kicks in because you're not going to be good at something from the very start or at least that's unlikely. And then once you have growth and grit, you're going to achieve some success and then it's time to pay back. And that's grace. Which of them have you found the easiest to do and which has been toughest for you? The easiest for me is grit because I'm just a gritty kind of person. Like I love to work. I cannot say which has been really hard because once I learned about the growth mindset from Carol Dweck, I immediately got the concept and you know, so then I wasn't afraid to learn ice hockey at 44 or surfing at 60 because well, once you have the growth mindset and you decided, yes, guy, you can learn how to play hockey, you can learn to surf at 60, then it's just a matter of grit, right? I say just a matter of grit as if it's easy, but it's not. And then grace, I think grace just comes with age that you realize that you're not going to live forever. You're also not going to take everything you have with you. And you realize that the reason why you are successful is not just because you're a terrific person, but it's because some teachers, some coach, some boss, some mentor, you know, something happened. These people helped you. So because they helped you, now you have an obligation to help others. When you're looking at growth mindset, is it harder to learn skills than to learn to work with people? I think that is a question that is so specific to the two people. I don't think you can draw a generalization that, you know, it's easier to form a new relationship versus learn a new skill. I mean, that is very, very specific to the situation. I don't know how about good answer for that. You talk about grace, you know, about this whole business of giving back. Did you think that that's something which matters to you or was it a conversation with a person that solidified that thought in your mind? Well, my father first told me that when I was in high school that it's called no bless oblige. The French words that say, you know, the nobility have an obligation to help other people. I don't like the word nobility because it implies that, you know, there's these special people who are going to help the pions, which is, I think, total bullshit. So I call it success oblige, which is if you're successful, you have an obligation. I would say I came upon that concept or reach my consciousness probably in my fifties. It takes a while to look at the world like that. I mean, up to your forties or fifties, you're so busy trying to make a living and raising your kids that you might not be thinking about what you can leave when you're gone. What would you like to leave when you're gone? I want people, when I die, I want people to say that I help them make a difference. And this would be with my book, my podcast, my speaking, my writing, my investing, my advising, but that's how I want to be remembered. Like my mantra for my life is empower people. That's what I want to be remembered for. When you look at your life, this is the connecting the dots part of it. What is it that you once believed to be absolutely true, which over time you either stopped believing or you changed your mind about? I stopped believing or I changed my mind about. I will tell you that I think in my fifties or so I changed my mind about judging other people. And I have come to believe that everybody you meet can do something better than you. So you know, if you think that you're Elon Musk and you can do everything better than everybody, or if you're Bill Gates or if you're Steve Jobs or Steve Ballmer or Richard Branson or anybody, anybody, I think that everybody you meet can do something better than you. Now, it may be, you know, that this person who's trimming your head is a better surfer than you, or this person who is waiting on your table is a better dancer than you, or this person who is waiting on you in the store is a better cook than you. I mean, everybody has some special superpower. I've come to believe that. And so you should not take yourself so goddamn seriously because society may judge and reward one thing more than others. But that doesn't necessarily mean that that thing is more important. An extreme example is in the United States, you look at how much we pay teachers, right? So we pay teachers like minimum to survive and they take their money and they buy supplies for their schools, right? How utterly ridiculous is that, right? So now you think you're running a hedge fund and you're a billionaire or your private equity and you're a billionaire and you're just a hot shit, you know, the big dog. And I'll tell you something, I think that teachers rank above you on the scale of goodness. And so, you know, you meet your kid's teacher and you think, you know, this person only makes 75 grand a year and I make 75 grand every five minutes with my hedge fund and you're superior to her or him. You ain't, you ain't. Is that the profession you have the most respect for? Teaching? Probably. Yes, I think teachers, teachers are little angels. Did you have a teacher who made that much of a difference to you? Oh, I had several. One was an English teacher in high school. One was that teacher in elementary school who told my parents to put me into a school that would prepare me for college. And if it wasn't for those two teachers, man, you know, I might not be on your podcast right now. When you invest money, somebody comes to you with an idea. This is the kind of a startup I want to build and it's going to be massive. And what are the questions you use to filter it down to say, yes. Well, first, let me tell you that I hardly ever do that because, frankly, the currency that I have is helping them with marketing issues, not with cash. So I don't need to use money to get options and stock because I have this other thing called marketing insights. And I will say that in the times that I have been an angel investor, I can't tell you that I have been entirely successful at that. I mean, I've lost a lot of money making dumb investments. But you know what? I mean, I put money into Canva and that's going to be very, very successful. Probably take care of all the losses combined. But I don't consider myself a good investor. I just fall in love with stuff and sometimes that love is irrational. So I don't consider myself a good investor. Don't come to me for investment advice. In fact, if you want investment advice from a guy, ask me what I'm doing and do opposite. You probably do quite well. What are some of those marketing insights that you think this is so obvious? Why don't people begin with that? I mean, you know, what is your way of that pyramid of insight? I think the key for me is that I believe I can empathize with people better than most people. So I understand what they're going through. And sometimes it's because I am the customer. And so that is very valuable to me to appreciate. And to sort of understand that, wow, Macintosh is very different and Canva is very different. And so I can understand that. And I hope the same is true of my book that, you know, my book is written very differently from most nonfiction books, right? It's shorter. It has many more heads and subheads. It has hundreds of bullet items that doesn't describe most nonfiction books. And I wrote this book because it's the kind of thing that when I want to read something about how to do something, I want two or three pages. I want a lot of divisions in the pages with heads. And I want a lot of bullet items that say, dude, this, this, this, this and this. I don't want to read pages and pages of unformatted text and have to go in and figure out what's important. Just like put it in boldface bullets for me. That's what I want. So it's the equivalent of 10, 20, 30 for books. Yeah. Absolutely. Yes. When you are creating a podcast, you know, what's your advice on how to design a podcast and how to market it to two different sectors? Okay. So for me, a podcast is all about preparation. So I spend hours preparing for an interview. I think one of the side benefits of a podcast is that it prevents dementia because 52 times a year I have to figure out things. So this morning, I interviewed someone about dog training. I knew nothing about dog training 24 hours ago. So there's dog training, you know, spinal injury recovery, grit with Angela Duckworth, primatology with Jane Goodall, astrophysics with Neil deGrasse Tyson, mathematics and physics with Stephen Wolfram, dystopia with Margaret Atwood, compensation with a professor from UCSD who's an expert in compensation. So 52 times a year. Oh, I've done interviews with people who were sentenced to 22 years of 44 years for accomplice to a murder and how that person became an artist. I have to understand like the people grew up in the projects and their parents were both crack addicts. So how you get out of that glaciers? How did glaciers work? And over and over again, I had to study all these things. I'll tell you something. I have about an inch of knowledge, but about 10 miles wide because of my podcast, I can have an intelligent conversation about a lot of topics for about one hour. You kind of very clearly use podcasts as a way of learning about a bunch of different things. How does one market a podcast? What is your... Okay, let me tell you something with total certainty. I do not have the answer for that. That is for sure because... So do you listen to my podcast? Okay, I do. So you know the quality of my podcast, right? I have great guests and I think I asked them very good questions, many of which have never been asked of them before. So you listen to my podcast, you will really get a lot out of these very remarkable people, right? So my podcasts, they get about 20, 25,000 downloads per episode. And no matter what I try, I cannot get that number higher. I have tried advertising, social media, I appear on other people's podcasts. I do everything I can. And then I look at, you know, I look at like Joe Rogan and he gets like 5 million downloads and I get 25,000 and I'm saying to myself, how is that possible? I mean, maybe he gets 5 million. I should get 2.5 million, right? I do not understand that. So that's a long explanation for me to tell you. I don't know how to market a podcast. If somebody out there knows how to market a podcast, you reach out to me and tell me. Okay, okay. Guy, we are coming up to the hour. That's good because I'm exhausted. This is a lot of questions. And this is my fourth one of the day. I'm just going to end with one last question. Okay. Remarkable person you ever met and what made them so? I would say it's probably Jane Goodall because she so embodies grace and graciousness. She's kind of my hero. And when I was finishing this book, I thought, you know, who would be the best person to have right the forward about a book about making a difference? And seriously, any of you listeners or anybody out there, if you can think of a better person to write a forward for a book that helps you make a difference and be remarkable, you tell me who it is because I don't think there's anybody better than Jane Goodall for this. Thank you so very much. This has been truly a remarkable conversation and I so appreciate you're doing this. Thank you so much. It's my pleasure. Thank you for having me as your guest and listen, I hope all of you, you know, you don't think this is just BS and you go and read my book. And oh, by the way, there's also a Canva course and this Canva course because not everybody wants to read. There's an online Canva course that explains how to be remarkable. Is there chat? Yeah, there is chat. So I'm going to send you that link. So that's an online Canva course that's free about how to be remarkable. And if you like the course, you will love the book. And if you love the book, you will love the course. So that's a free resource for everyone. I'm going to put that here you go. That's the Canva course that we are talking about. HGTPS colon forward slash twice www.canva.com forward slash learn forward slash guys slash cover talking forward slash hashtag lesson. They'll never remember that. Now that's what I'm saying, you know, so it stays longer than they can just quickly jot it down. Oh, okay. All right. Thank you very much. Have a good evening.