 Good evening. I'm Peter Sharoschi and you are watching Drug Reporter Cafe, a talk show on international drug policy reform. Today we will discuss the chances of drug policy reform in a Scandinavian country, Iceland, where the government announced in January that it plans to decriminalize the possession of drugs for personal use. I have two guests from Iceland today here who will help us to understand the situation in Iceland. The first is Svala Johannes Dotir, harm reduction specialist and the head of the first needle and syringe program in Iceland and currently the head of a homeless shelter in Reykjavik. And the other is Haldur Remorgensen, a member of the Icelandic parliament, the Alting, representing the pirate party, which is in the forefront of reform initiatives. Hello and thank you so much for accepting our invitation. Thank you for inviting us. So before we start discussing the drug situation in Iceland, can you both tell me a bit about your background? So how did you get engaged in the drug field and what are your personal experiences, motivations here? Let's start maybe with Svala. Yes, so I started to work with homeless people in Reykjavik around 2009 or 2007 and yes, so I have since then mostly been working with people who are homeless in the city and people who have an injection drug problem. I got to know harm reduction when I was staying as an exchange student in Holland in Utrecht because as we know harm reduction was very late applied to Iceland and we actually started the first harm reduction service in 2009. So in Iceland we are actually far behind and other European countries. Yes, so I have mostly been working in the shelters on the field and now more as a harm reduction therapist and a teacher and yes and through all this year I've got to know hundreds of people in my city Reykjavik who inject drugs and learn mostly I would say from there, from them about the situation because we have so little data about actually how their life is and actually about the drug market in Iceland which is quite different than in the rest of the mainland because Iceland is an island and most of the use here that people are injecting are prescription drugs. So methylphenidate, ritalin, morphine like contact in oxy that's our sort of the main drugs that people with severe drug problem are injecting and then after that we have cocaine and amphetamine. Thank you, Haldora. Well for me as a strange journey I guess it comes more from having myself experienced it so living through kind of the party scene as a young person and seeing a lot of my friends never getting out of it you know at some point it stops being a party and it starts being something completely different and kind of just being a witness to the suffering that is involved in getting stuck there and not being able to come out and harm reduction is something that I wasn't introduced to until much later but for me it was always more on an intuitive level where it just didn't make any sense the way that people were being treated and this whole idea of I researched a lot into drugs during a time and this idea that really drugs have always been available to mankind from the very beginning and this crazy idea that we would somehow be able to stop drug use with these methods of these authoritarian methods that are being used and it's just causing so much human suffering all over the world rather than preventing it and for me I was always thinking how do we prevent this suffering so when I was introduced to to harm reduction and these ideas of decriminalization it just intuitively made sense and then I started looking at the research and the science behind it and all of a sudden I realized that it was insane that we had not already done this because the system that is in place now does not have any research to back it up that it actually functions or works and really I don't understand how we are getting away with continuing with the system that it doesn't have anything backing it up that it actually works. So Swala you started to talk about the drug markets in Iceland and you said it's really different from mainland Europe can you tell us more about the drug scene in Iceland also are there like other drugs used like cannabis in Iceland can we and how do I mention party drugs so what drugs are used what are the main trends in this? Yes yes so I mean like most other countries people mostly use alcohol and cannabis these are the biggest type of drugs that people consume after that we see amphidamine and then cocaine and then you know when people have more kind of problematic drug use they sort of go more into the prescription market one of the reasons for that is because we're an island and it's more harder and more difficult to get drugs to the country we have seen that many of the drugs that are important or actually less there's a less quality and they are much more expensive so the drug drug market in Iceland is quite expensive the price has been stable for the last 10-15 years which no one really understands why but we see that the gram of cannabis is the same today as it was seven years ago we see that the price of amphidamine is the same price today as it was seven or 10 years ago the drugs that are we have noticed that the drugs that are produced in Iceland we have most of the cannabis is produced here most of the amphidamine is probably produced here we have a lot of upbringing in spice consumption which is quite sad because it brings a lot of health problems and we're seeing that big proportion of prisoners are using spice and I mean we completely understand why because they are punished if they use something else they try into you you know get away with the punishment inside the prisons and so we see like in other countries that when we see type of drugs being used inside the prison it's slowly with the years comes outside to society so yeah most of the people that I have been working with the last 14 years inject drugs or smoke opiates or a cocaine but when we look at the more of the partisan it's more kind of mdma amphidamine cocaine and then we have some kind of psychedelic drug scene just quite similar as in the mainland but we don't have maybe the same amount of viaries and it's really expensive for example in in Iceland there's no heroin there's no heroin use the heroin that comes to the country is usually imported by individuals who have have experience using heroin abroad and but it doesn't really go to the legal market to sell and when it has happened we have seen that the quality is quite bad and it's really expensive so people who like opiates people who develop an addiction to opiates they use prescription medicine like fentanyl plasters that they cook up or a cocktail or oxycontin if I if I answer the ball enough yeah fair enough thank you I remember back in 2015 I read an article in the UK tabloid the Daily Mail and it's not that Icelanders smoke more cannabis than any countries in Europe they have I don't know if you if you read that article and if if you if you can tell us if because I suppose it was not well I think from the statistics from Europe we are definitely not the biggest smoker of cannabis but what we have what we have seen of course in other countries lately that the the cannabis is getting much stronger and sort of that's kind of the main problem with the illegal market is that people don't have a choice people don't have a choice about what strength they want and what type they want and that's exactly what we have seen in the last five years in Iceland that the cannabis market is getting yes the THC is getting way stronger I'm not so sure like where we would rank from the latest numbers but I know that we are definitely not the top three if it answers Hadoora when you when you went to school how difficult was it to buy cannabis or any other illegal drugs when I was younger it was never very difficult it's always it's always been easy and I think it for for the kids often it was easier than getting alcohol you know but um but it also I think it depends a lot on obviously what what kind of cliques you're in at the same time but I think it's getting even easier maybe Svalak and I believe that they're using Facebook now and and social media to to to sell and buy and it's if anything technology it's just getting easier I'm also asking you because you know there is this so-called Icelandic prevention model which is now like advertised all around the world as something like a miracle you know that in Iceland in schools there is a specific you know drug prevention campaign and because of night curfews and because of some limitations of of young people and also like alternative recreational activities organized and and there was a dramatic decrease in the use of drugs amongst good children's and I was wondering how accurate is this picture or how how how much do you think that's that's accurate so when we look at the so-called Icelandic prevention model it is it is true that it has it did enormous in fact and one of the reason for that is because there were so many institutions in society was working together we have the school we have motivating families so there was a lot of things that that work together and and that's what we see that prevention if it's supposed to work it needs to have it cannot be isolated to to just the school or just a just solution it has to be a long term and many working together what interested me as a harm reduction worker is that we are worried that the the younger people who do develop an addiction who starts to have problem with drugs around 14 15 16 they are actually probably in a worse situation today than they were 10 years ago and we have a feeling I cannot say that we're sure about it that that's one of the reason is because of marginalization and because of harsh drug policy in Iceland when it comes to people under 18 and a prejudice against young people using illegal drugs or developing an addiction so the sort of mentality in Icelandic society is sort of zero tolerance and it's been very strong for a long time and obstinate based model have been used for a long time and nearly for everything when it comes to drug use that's one of the reason why Icelandic country started so late developing harm reduction service and so this kind of mentality of looking at drug use or drug problem in a different way is very new for Icelanders and I mean so many things have happened the last 10 years but we are wondering if the people the young people who actually develop some kind of problem or actually in a worse situation and that just has to be looked better into yes if this answers enough for you peter can I just jump in quickly regarding that because it's really interesting because I actually grow up in in the UK I didn't really come back to Iceland until I was 15 or so and I really felt this attitude that is talking about like personally living in England it was kind of normal that kids were playing around and trying to smoke joints and it wasn't really and a lot of people it's kind of even though it's legal in the UK obviously the attitude around it is that it's kind of normal it's kind of okay to smoke weed every now and then you know so even with the grown-ups and that was the feeling that that I had growing up there that this wasn't a huge taboo it was just a little bit like drinking alcohol whereas coming to Iceland I really felt that the idea of smoking a joint was synonymous to almost just shooting a heroin you know that was that that's kind of how how society looked at it but it was the same also with with drinking alcohol you know going to a bar and this is just a short while ago going to a bar on Tuesday and maybe ordering an alcoholic drink for lunch you know it looked at like you're an alcoholic or something it was crazy so this this attitude has been slowly changing but but I think it has the effect that that we're not truly informing kids in the correct manner like the information that they're getting they know is wrong because they can just go on the internet and read about it themselves and they understand that they're being lied to so I think one of the most important things when it comes to preventative methods is the information that we're giving kids that it's correct information and that we're treating them like they you know like they're sentient thinking human beings and and and not idiots I think that this is a huge step that we need to take and this if I can add one thing because I we have been I've been really we have been really thinking about this for the last years because we have our child protection law is quite unique compared to most countries it means that if you as a citizen or especially a professional you have an obligation to call the child protection if you have any concern for any knowing that the person under 18 is using substances and that means that for example people from 16 to 18 who may be are using illegal drugs or would probably need the harm induction service don't actually go there because they know that the law says that they have to call the child protection and what happens in the child protection in Iceland when they get that phone call is that usually a police officer is sent out to look for them to find them which is and actually a person that is not in a unit and not in a marked car and they are taking to two weeks to a lock up in which is called stiller because the approach says this abstinence only approach we need to stop the drug use and so there's a lot of complication there a the people the youngest groups that we want to use the harm induction service they do not come they either just maybe go to a pharmacy to buy in injection materials or they send someone who is already 18 so there's a little connection there because this is the approach they are afraid that if they go to a service on healthcare or harm induction service this is the process that will happen they will end up in in a child protection home and they are locked inside there for two weeks but how is it can i jump in Svala how is it with rehab with the rehab because this i find really interesting is that most kids it's just a natural part of growing up is that you show a sort of risk behavior is just one of you know one of these things that these all kids go through and so it's quite common that during this risk behavior time in in your development that you're trying new things and you're trying kids are trying drugs and in my understanding a lot of kids are ending up in rehab also with grownups and i know a lot of stories of kids were going to rehab with grownups because their system or their parents are forcing them to and they're coming really out of it with a lot more risk behavior you know because they're really getting to know properly people who've really been using drugs for a very long time and this i find a little bit crazy but also this is one of the reasons why i think decriminalization is so necessary is that instead of taking these kids and giving them the message that they're doing something wrong and really what they're doing is quite natural we should be creating a safe space for them to do it and because most of these kids are they're just going to try try and then they're going to stop there most of them are not going to create or have a bad habit of drug abuse you know this is a very very small group of people who end up there and then the underlying problem is something very very different to to the drugs that they're using the video you are watching now is produced by the rights reporter foundation a non-profit organization which is not supported by any governments or political parties if you like this show please support our work on our website drugreporter.net make a donation today and become our supporting member it makes a difference thank you yeah so as i understand the picture is not so bright as it is reported in the international media so but still do you think that it had some kind of success this this Icelandic prevention model in like reducing the number of teens who use drugs or what why is it so much hyped because it i mean for the majority of the young people it has had success we can see that in the numbers and there are people under 16 in Iceland drink less alcohol they smoke less weed and they are less likely to try other types of drugs than all of the other countries in europe that's what we see so for the what we would say majority of the people under 18 this or mostly 16 this prevention model is working really well what i am mostly concerned about as a harm attacks in warfare is that the younger people that it doesn't work for and we are worried that their situation the small group of people that they were just forgotten they don't fit inside this this prevention model and we as a country should have put a focus on this small amount of young people who already are in some kind of problem with drugs because of their living situation some kind of pain or other stuff and we would have wanted that the government would especially kind of think about how are we going to meet these people because i was a project manager for a mobile harm reduction car here in Reykjavik for five years from 2015 to 2020 and we would go around all of the city area and provide needle exchange harm reduction education and health service with nurses and sometimes we would meet people who just became 18 and when you start to hear their stories and about how many times they were locked up for these two weeks or maybe three months because they were forced to go into drug treatment and i'm not saying that you that we should never force this policy what i'm criticizing is that when you're meeting children or young people who have experienced this maybe 20 times 25 times 30 times in their life you meet them and they trust nobody they are even afraid to come to the harm reduction car they're afraid to what to say to you because the system broke the trust this is where i put the big kind of question mark and i think this is inhumane treatment to young people who are developing a drug problem and what sort of how we are approaching young people with drug problems in Iceland is similar to Sweden this kind of really yeah you know what i mean peter i don't know the english word for it tough love sort of tough love and zero tolerance of young people using drugs and i just want to make it clear i'm not saying we should never do it i'm just saying when we have when we are doing it for the fifth time or the tenth time or twentieth time i would want people to sit down and say okay this is clearly not working what can we do to make this person life quality better and help her to live through this if it makes sense yeah definitely and we have been filming in sweden about drug policies so i know what you speak about it's it's it's pretty interesting for me you know to see that all the scandinavian countries who had this very strongly rooted abstinence culture for several now they are kind of opening up to harm reduction and decriminalization but we can also see norway or sweden that there is in in sweden there have been no need to exchange for a long time and now there are some at least no way wants to decriminalize so do you think that now iceland is also opening up to to harm reduction and are there new opportunities in this regard yes we have managed i have to say quite a normal stink in this year's time and for example this program that i used to run which is called through rachner and is run by the red cross of iceland was sort of the first form of harm reduction service in iceland and it was really important not only for the clients for the drug consumption or the drug users society but also just for iceland as a country because the program brought kind of the message of harm reduction that we need to approach people in a humane way with compassion and empathy and love to stop this fight and just work together and have a conversation and you know all of this thing that abstinence only approach doesn't really have grounded in itself and the people who are working there now in the program they're just they're doing a fantastic work of going to the media of reminding us that we cannot break the rights the human rights of people who use drugs and then we have another organization called snaroting which is sort of a drug policy reformist organization and a harm reduction organization they have also been very active going to media writing articles being active on social media and so and then we have haltura and you know other people from the pilot party who and everyone have sort of been speaking up and demanding different kind of approach and in a very short time I mean I'm so glad that this had happened because I mean when I started 2007 I just couldn't believe how we were treating people I mean I was working in the shelter for homeless women I was meeting these women who were in so much pain you know and yeah I'm just so glad that 2021 you know we are there there's a bill in the parliament about decriminalization the government has approved now that we can put up and we can put up a safe drug consumption in Reykjavik I mean it's just so many things that happen in 10 to 15 years and I am very positive I know it's also like a lot of struggle and we have a lot of conservative people here who don't want any change but the group who's speaking for a humane drug policy which is built on science and compassion and to focus more on harm reduction I think that group is getting bigger and bigger and bigger yeah Hodor as a politician you it's your job actually to be concerned about public opinion what do you experience like is it is it difficult for you as as a member of parliament to raise these issues do you get many negative comments or reception from the public I don't know I'm quite dogheaded so when it comes to caring about the public opinion of course it matters to a certain degree but at the same time I'm very passionate about the things that I'm passionate about that makes any sense so I mean I started talking about medical marijuana here and Jesus that was not a popular topic and still isn't like I don't think I've ever been in in parliament in session speaking about any proposal before which has gotten so little so little input from from my fellow parliamentarians like there was literally no other party that would touch it and I still fought for it I think two or three times until I gave up and decided to change it over to CBD and I thought maybe that would be an easier step for people to take to to be willing to would legalize CBD which isn't a drug you know it's it should just be classified as a food or a vitamin but um but regarding the the decriminalization I think a huge part of this is also I mean there's been a conversation for a long time when the pirate party came to parliament first this is back in 2013 to 2016 the first pirate parliamentary group in in I'll think it they put forth and they got a proposal accepted to put together some sort of working group or committee to look at um what we could do to reform our drug policies and from that work there was a lot of points that came out and one of them was this this um drug consumption rooms that have now been passed and I think a a reason why like a huge reason why that was able to do that is also we have a health minister who is willing to push these things also and is excited about them too and that helps a lot to to have the current health minister pushing for these things so I remember when we were when we had this drug consumption room bill in the hands of the welfare committee for the first time I was chairing the welfare committee at that time and when the policy came to us it just wasn't ready because it had so much opposition from the police and a large part of it working in a society that hasn't decriminalized possession of drugs a large like intrinsic part of that working that policy is that the police are willing to play along you know because they really have to look the other way a little bit for this to work and stop harassing these drug users who are coming into these spaces with their drugs on them illegally of course so creating the safe zone for this we needed the police to be on board with it and they just weren't in the beginning so we had to send it back and one of the biggest steps I think is when we sent this policy this bill back to the minister of health we did so with a message from the welfare committee of Altingi that we were directing the minister of health to look at to take this a step further and to decriminalize drugs drug possession and this was a huge huge step and from that I decided to put forth this proposal or this bill of decriminalization because I saw that the minister of health wasn't going to do it and this is now now we've kind of pressed her to a position of where it's coming out now and I really have have big hopes for it but it's difficult because there's a lot of politics going on also behind the scenes and it's difficult to really figure out whether like who honestly is going to lobby for this to go through. So if I understand you well this safe consumption room is already it exists so it is something happening now? No, unfortunately not and everyone is waiting for it. The thing is that the bill went through and so you're allowed to run a safe injection site or drug consumption room in Iceland but the next step has to be because the interesting part which no one really understand is that in the law a municipality has to apply to a director of health in Iceland to open up a drug consumption rooms and drug consumption room in Iceland are sort of named a specialized health service so no one really understand why it's put on a social service to actually apply for a health care service and so there's some kind of thing we see going on there but the municipality of Reykjavík and the health ministry have given out that they are going to start a conversation about applying an open one but everyone is still waiting and the drug users on the street are waiting they're constantly asking they're like Sala when is this drug consumption room going to open because I mean in Reykjavík we don't have necessarily so many people sleeping outside because we have now four shelters for both homeless women and then homeless men but it is estimated that in Reykjavík we have around 350 homeless people who are living in a not safe environment and have to use the shelter sometimes and so the population that is often has to use drug outside is waiting for it and it's hard for me to say what's sort of stopping it but I think it's also this regulation that the social service has to apply for something and the health care is not taking responsibility of doing it themselves sort of on the political level it's also just the politics getting in the way of progressing you know it's it's always the local politics and the you know the parliament kind of or not the parliament the government just clashing a little bit on who's responsible for what and who's going to do what and it's a little bit of a mess and it's a sad mess because it's something that should just be done ASAP. Another thing that we are having also a little bit problem with is the analoxone it's actually a sort of a really sad situation is because the analoxone nasal spray or just analoxone in general is a prescription medicine in Iceland and that sort of means that the barriers for the person most in need of it is way too high and there is there is no drug use in Iceland who has analoxone we have no distribution of analoxone there is no kind of first aid or opioid prevention how do you say programs to and it came on the market in Iceland two years ago and we we tried very hard the harm reduction society in Iceland to push forward that it will be that everyone could go to the pharmacy and just buy it and get the training there or that the harm induction established harm induction service could distribute it but it was very hard and so we are also what has been happening now is that actually the services the shelters the outreach program the mobile inter exchange have also had difficulties of getting analoxone just for the staff but that went through I think one or two months ago that they made some kind of a change in the regulation for it but we really need to start distributing analoxone to people yeah because we had we have actually quite high overdose rate in Iceland compared to the rest of Europe and one of the reason is I mean the ground reason is because a stigma people are or afraid to call because if you call the ambulance in Iceland in 95% around yeah when it comes to drug use the police will come with them and so people are afraid to call the emergency line and because the police is going to come and they don't really know how the police are going to treat them if they're gonna take the drugs away or they're gonna arrest them and and so there is yeah there are these kind of small things that we are always trying to talk about and trying to get a change yeah it sounds to me that one of the main barriers in Iceland is repressive drug laws so can you tell us what is what does the law currently say about drug use so what are the sanctions and how would you how would you change that and what what is the current proposition in the parliament on how to change the drug law so is that to me um so now I mean we just have a flat out ban on all consumption and well not consumption but possession and buying selling distribution you know of drugs and of illegal drugs and uh what what we what we what's happening now is we have a bill from the the minister of health which is decriminalizing the the possession mainly of uh of of drugs for personal consumption the problem is that that everyone brings up the cryptics bring up is you know how are we going to define what is for a possession and not you know which is we shouldn't really have to find the wheel you know again because portugal have done this and and other countries have done this so we can look to other countries but the main conversation here and what I find is stopping this is always when we start talking about decriminalizing decriminalizing drugs for personal use someone talks about it as you're legalizing basically you're making it okay you're making it legal for people to have drugs possessing drugs for personal use and what about the message that we're giving to the children this is like the huge thing so then we're basically the message that we're giving to the children is that it's okay to use drugs and this really scares people and then they talk about how well we've been doing in in getting young people to stop using drugs as much so that this they almost talk about decriminalization the critics of this bill as if it's just going to all of a sudden open up the market more and and make all drugs much more available to young people and we're just going to have a flood of young people using using drugs if we're doing this so this is the main scare tactic that the critics are using and it's a real like it's a real fear and I think it's based in this misunderstanding that we have about what what addiction is and this is one of the things that I intuitively have felt for a long time but when I heard Johan Hari say it in a in a TED talk that the opposite of addiction is not sobriety but connection to me that was really a game changer and of course it is and this I think is something that the people who really oppose drug reform and decriminalization they don't understand this it's like they still have this belief that drugs have some sort of chemical hook that if you if you try a line of cocaine once you're just gonna you're gonna be a cocaine addict for the rest of your life like this this belief structure is still so tangible in Icelandic culture and I think in a lot of countries all over the world so that is I think the root cause and the basis of this misunderstanding that we're having in the conversation and it's difficult to fix it you know it's difficult to fix it but we're doing a lot lot better there was a poll recently in Iceland which showed that 60% of Icelanders are now positive about the idea of decriminalizing and that's huge that's a huge change that's happened in a really really short time so it means that we're doing well with the the conversation that we're having in Iceland regarding this issue and it means that that you know it's inevitable that change will come it's just a question of when now there's some very strange politics going on around the minister of health bill and I think a huge part of it is kind of our fault the pirates fault I say this in you know because we forced a vote on our bill during the last session we did this because at the end of every parliamentary session there's a period of time before we close for summer where we have negotiations between the parties on and we wanted to force a vote on our bill on decriminalization because they were trying to kill it basically they were trying to kill it send it back send it to the minister to work better whatever they were just trying to kill it because they don't want to vote because a vote is painful to them because they don't they're against it but they know it's going to cost them so that's it's kind of turned around in Iceland it's public opinion is with decriminalization but it seems that there's too many people in Alkopy still who are against it and they don't want to make their vote transparent to the public because they know that there will be backlash and that's exactly what we did we kind of we forced a vote and because of that a lot of people voted against and the bill was felt it fell it wasn't didn't go through and there was a huge backlash and the parties felt this they felt that really the people are wanting this and so the minister of health was really forced to put out this bill now that she has and unfortunately she hasn't garnered the support of the police the the surgeon general and the medical you the people in in the in the medical industry or the the healthcare sector she hasn't gotten the support of these groups which is incredibly important and that means that her bill is now in a precarious place when it comes to being able to whether we're able to to finish it or not before we conclude our discussion i'm asking you both just to you know to wrap up like uh how what would you see uh the most in like in five years where should island where should island be in five five years in terms of drug policy what are the main changes you expect uh the government to make or any any any you know new services to be opened uh no swallow should definitely answer this one first in five years i um i think we have most likely have opened up our first drug consumption room uh in Reykjavík there is um i mean the health ministry is uh has put aside 50 millions to open it in the collaboration of Reykjavík city so i think that will be open and i think just the whole harm reduction service field would have most likely grow because we're seeing uh enormous uh a positive uh aspect of it uh both with the uh our clients and also um like harm reduction services in Iceland they are actually quite popular when it comes to um the people in the country they are actually they get a lot of support people like Halter was was going explaining is that we have 60 percent of people now saying yes to decriminalization i mean that's huge i mean the same research was done i think three or five years ago where this was i think we didn't even reach 40 so i mean there's an enormous amount of change i am also hoping because harm reduction in Iceland has just been focused on people who have problems with drugs we have not managed to get harm reduction approach into a broader section of just drug use in general we have um festivals and the bar nightlives in Iceland uh have zero harm reduction approach uh we have it's really normal here with big festivals that they are they work with the police they have uh drug dogs inside the festivals and which can be really dangerous for young people who are seeking the festival because they consume so much before they're going i mean so i mean we are trying to open up that we just when it comes to this we need to put uh safety and health of our clients in broad respect as a front and harm reduction is the the most effective ways when it comes to that yes i think you know that's at least how i see it and of course i mean i have a hope that we will change the situation with naloxone because i mean if i have to admit i mean it's a disaster we have naloxone here finally and then no one can get it the people who were in the most danger uh and and they are asking for it they're asking why can i not have naloxone i mean they just so i think i know hopefully in one year we will start to distribute naloxone to people in a most need and you know i am positive that the decriminalization bill maybe not this one but maybe the next one we need to get it through because um it's a very uh how do you say it it's a very dangerous drug loss that we have here and it brings a dangerous kind of mentality around it and it sort of is a threshold of building up harm reduction in iceland we need demon decriminalization to be capable of doing it yes thank you adora i absolutely agree with svala and uh maybe just add that it's this always this conversation just makes me think of um the rat park experiment uh which probably most of of of your viewers know but this idea that uh where you have the rats in the bear cage uh who become addicted to cocaine and then you have the rat park where they have lots of activities and they have all of their rat friends and buddies and uh and none of them really seek out the the cocaine water you know they're they're just happy in their rat park and it makes me think of the society that we've created and uh also these stories of how how animals seek drugs um most animals on the planet seek out drugs when they're in a state of sorrow or anxiety or you know fear but mainly when they're sad when they're um they seek out drugs and to me i think drugs have a purpose they have a purpose in in our in our culture in our lives and society and it makes me think whether the societies that we've built ourselves are just these uh um creating this constant state of pain and sorrow and whether that is the reason why we're seeing so many people abusing drugs uh because we lack this sense of identity we lack this sense of security we lack this sense of connection and that makes me think really what we should be focusing on is the root cause like why have we built these societies this way and how can we change it and how can we why are we not putting all of our resources and knowledge in uh uprooting poverty all over the world the way that we see that we've been dealing with covid where all of these countries all over the world are coming together all of the scientists are putting everything aside to try to find a solution to covid what if we did this for poverty um i think we would be looking at a very very different world and i don't think we would be looking at the same drug abuse problems that we have today and i don't think drugs would even have to be illegal really so that is i think it's just important that we also look at this holistically and um and really start looking at the the root causes thank you and for my behalf i can tell you that it's really inspiring to see what you are doing in in island and not because not because island has so wonderful drug policy because we saw that it has not but but it's really inspiring to see that change is possible despite of this repressive drug policy and you are uh you are really like made a big progress in in in the recent years and it's it's it's also inspiring from my part of Europe where we don't see that change coming in the near future so so hadora aswala thank you so much for for accepting our invitation being with us thank you thank you so much peter i am so i'm so how do you say i'm so thankful for drug reporters because it's just uh such important a great work that you're doing and uh i'm always advertising it to everyone in in island and love the people are following you and so thank you for bringing us to let the world see a different kind of expected situation of people with different types of policies thank you thank you so much aswala and i hope that next time we will discuss island in drug reporter cafe we will you will you will speak from a country with the criminalized drug use and and thank you also for those who are watching us on facebook please follow us on facebook and twitter we will let you know the next what what will be the next episode of drug reporter cafe and don't forget that drug reporter cafe is operated by a non-profit organization so please make a donation for the rights reporter foundation thank you and goodbye