 On Wednesday, November the 15th, we'll call it or the city of Newskies special city council meeting. We'll ask that everybody first join us and rise and join us for the Pledge of Allegiance led by Deputy Mayor Brian Corgan. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Thank you. Okay, so we have a pretty condensed agenda tonight. So we did not put on the agenda and agenda review because there's nothing to review. I will take an opportunity though to open up for any public comment because we generally require that to see if there's anything anybody would like to address the council about that's not on tonight's agenda. We're all here for the consent agenda, right? You know if we passed the minutes from last week, right? That's okay. Okay, so we'll move on to the constituent. We have one item on the constituent tonight which is approval of city council, actually city council and liquor control board meeting minutes from November 6th, 2017. I entertain a motion for approval. The agenda is presented. So moved. Motion by Brian Corgan, second by Eric. Any further discussion? Hearing is seen none. All those in favor, please say aye. Those opposed, motion carries. I move on to the regular items. First item tonight is a quasi-judicial hearing in relation to order of police labor agreement in that hearing that in regards to a step three grievance. We received notice shortly before the meeting today that this issue has been resolved and withdrawn. So at this time, we will cancel that quasi-judicial hearing and move forward with our other agenda items. Any questions or concerns from council? Any questions or concerns from the public? Seeing none, we will move on. Item B, discussion, Myers-Pool overview of timeline and tax impact. The last meeting, you approved allocation of $92,500 to do the preliminary engineering of the pool and that led us into a discussion where it became pretty clear that there was, that we had not communicated well some of the implications of the pool, the Myers-Pool project. So we have provided you a memo answering some of those key questions and those key questions are, what can we expect through the preliminary engineering phase, which is the phase we are now entering into? Is it possible to fast track this work in time to meet the deadline for a March town meeting day bond vote? What are the following stages of the project after preliminary engineering and what are the timelines associated with each and what are the overall cost implications of the project? So we've outlined the answers to those questions and the memo sent out and posted online for viewers to look at. We're happy to walk through them if that would be useful. Maybe like 90 seconds on each just to summarize what's on in case folks didn't get a chance to take a peek. Thank you. And Ray, I'll start but we'll jump in as I go. So the first question is, what can we expect out of preliminary engineering? So obviously, far before me, the pool committee met and did a lot of work around options for the Myers pool and worked on conceptual plans. The price tag associated with those conceptual plans is $4.4 million. And I think the community kind of rallied around a design and moved it forward to you in August. Those are massing concepts, conceptual concepts. So to move forward to financing, we need to go through this preliminary engineering phase. The result of that work, which is the money you allocated at the last meeting, are a schematic design. So what traditionally is thought of is like a 30% design, a geotechnical study and a technical cost estimate. So that's when we have a better sense of what's in the ground, what are the costs associated, what's the beginning stages of design to get a more fine-tuned cost estimate that can be then used to go into the financing phases. So those are the three major deliverables we'll see in the next four months. That's geotechnical report, schematic drawings and a detailed cost estimate. You asked us to look at whether it's possible to fast track for a March bond vote. So Ray and the team did meet with our engineers to look over that question. What we indicate in here is well, technically that would be possible pending a horrific snowstorms in the next couple of months because the work, the geotechnical work and survey work really is outdoor work. While it's technically possible, we do not recommend it. We talked about this a little at the last meeting. What that would mean if we fast-tracked, it would be very quick turnaround time by the engineer. A short window, the data we would be bringing to you, we would be bringing to you right at the end of January. So you'd have maybe a meeting, maybe to look at that information and decide whether to move it forward. It would really limit the ability to weigh that budgetary impact against other budget discussions. It would certainly increase exposure for the project. So we wouldn't do the same fine-tuned engineering analysis as we would do through the four month process that they're recommending. And therefore the project in the future could be in jeopardy. Fast-tracking it also doesn't allow us to go look for other funding to offset the use of local dollars. So just today we've moved forward with a CCRPC Brownfields grant to try and offset some of that cost. If we need to move forward with that work in advance, we won't have those funds successful. So then there was a question about, so what happens next? If we complete preliminary engineering, go to bond vote, can we be under construction next summer? So one of the things we want to be very clear about is in big capital projects like this, there are several really important stages and preliminary engineering is a very initial stage of that process. So what we've tried to outline here and with a Gantt chart provided by the engineer is those different phases that happen next. So preliminary engineering, the results is the geotechnical work, the 30% design. Following that we enter into the financing phase where we decide as a community how we're gonna put the money together for the project, likely take a bond vote. It's about a 65 day phase. Once we get a financing approval, we move into design development, which is moving those engineering plans from 30% to 100% design. So all the nitpicky details of where pipes are gonna go and where tile is gonna go and what the insides of the building are gonna look like, et cetera. Following the approval of that final design, we move into construction documents. So then those drawings are transferred from engineering drawings to what the contractor is gonna wanna see so they know what to build on site. It's about a 55 day process. From there as a municipality, we clearly have to bid out the work. So we put an RFP on the street, say here are the design documents, firms, contractors in the area respond to this RFP. It's about a 45 day process to have that RFP on the street of people time to respond, review responses and have the council approve. And then finally, Weston and Samson, and then once you have a contractor on board, obviously you move into construction. Weston and Samson is estimating about a 380 day construction timeline. So it's about a year worth of construction. It's very important to note that given winter construction climate, and probably we all know this, projects often have to go into winter shutdown. So given that the stages that come after preliminary engineering, even if we go to a bond vote in March, we will not be under construction next summer because we would still have to get through that design documents, construction documents and bidding documents. If we were to fast track that and say we could get to construction documents in October and want to enter into contract for something to start immediately, we're likely going to get pretty elevated prices. You're going to get people who know we're desperate to get started and we're going to not get the best bang for the taxpayer dollar. So what we recommend as outlined here is to move forward with the preliminary engineering as approved, go spend, take a bond vote sometime in the spring, spend then the spring and summer going through the design development and construction phase or design development and construction documents process in summer in 18 prepare to bid out the work in the fall or early winter of 18 to prepare for a 19 construction season start with a pool opening beginning of the 2020 summer, which I know is very disappointing, but I think it's a realistic engineering schedule. And then the final question posed was what are the overall cost implications of the project? So we have presented, we've done some analysis on that. Again, we're using the very high level construction cost estimate we currently have. So assuming a $4.4 million project, which is what we estimated as part of the conceptual plans that could easily change as we get through preliminary engineering and at 3.75 interest rate, which is the market rate in the bond bank right now, and then assuming the $100,000 of operating cost to run the pool once it's opened, we're looking at about a nine cent impact to the tax rate. So that's about a $220 bill increase for a $225,000 assessed home, but a 1,100 impact for a million dollar business. So did I miss anything significant for you? That was great. That is what we presented. So I'm gonna start by saying thank you for putting together what I think is the most comprehensive summary clearly to date that has the different steps involved so we can talk about those in a really clear and transparent perspective, not just from our seats, but obviously for the public too, so that there's real understanding about what is going to unfold. The really hard part about this is there's energy that exists, right? And when people get to put stickers on pictures and talk about what they wanna see, that can really charge folks up and get people excited for something. And this is a good reminder, I think, and something that we should come back to time and time again and have very present in any kind of conversations we have about this, what be it staff, be it pool committee members, which wanna acknowledge all of you and all the work that you've done and all the time that you've put into this. I know it's been an incredibly long haul. This was a conversation that really kind of, we'll say came out of nowhere. It's one that we knew we were gonna have to have, but it's one that we got spurred into by a situation where it just wasn't feasible to operate anymore. But I do appreciate that there's been effort to put this into the correct timeline because I think we need to be honest in saying in the past we've had some issues in being really clear on what the timeline would look like from the public perspective. And I think we've said a couple of different things throughout this process. And I don't think any of us are very happy about that on either side of this room or sitting in those chairs. So it's very good to see something like this that I think we can count on and rely on even though some of the dates I'm sure are making people's hands ring, a good deal. One thing I wanna ask about is something that's not addressed in here is alternative forms of funding. And there was quite a bit of discussion around fundraising and whether or not there was grant or other participatory funds from other sources that might impact this. Do you, I'll speak to your grants and then Jesse I may ask fundraising-wise if you can help chime in to some. But so grant-wise we've done some preliminary research. I think what I would say is there's not a ton out there. Land and Water Conservation Fund is a big grant, statewide grant pool that will be coming up next cycle is 2018. I believe that caps out at $100,000 per project. So not a small amount of money, but certainly not an amount of money that's gonna push this thing across the finish line. I absolutely, if we're still moving in this direction at that point, expect that we would apply for that funding. Again, as with any grant, it's not a guarantee but I think we'd have a competitive project. Worth noting too that that's the funding source that built this pool back in the 70s. So there's some, I think, interesting history there too. Certainly from a fundraising perspective, there is I think an appetite and a willingness on the part of the pool committee. And I'll speak for you guys and let you throw tomatoes if I'm way off. But I think there's a real desire to be participatory and involved in a fundraising process. I think they've at points in the discussions to date set some pretty audacious and admirable goals around fundraising. I think 2.7 was the number we were working around. That's a huge lift for a volunteer group. And so I think there's, again, I appreciate that ambition. I think there's a reality there too that that's a very long stretch. And I just wanna quickly say too, we're gonna ask just a few questions of staff to kind of set the table a little bit and we will be opening this up. So you'll absolutely have opportunities to, sorry, right? No, no, that's fine. So we've certainly had some good discussions with Jeff Meyers. He is the son of Ken Meyers and has a foundation that has been established already. It's been, I can't remember when Mike, if you remember when that was established, it's been a number of years. A number of years. The whole purpose of the foundation is to raise funds in support of the Meyers pool. There is some money in that foundation at this point, again, not a huge amount. But Jeff has been very willing to be part of a conversation and a plan. Beyond that, it's a lot of little drops in the bucket that I think will take a pretty heavy left to fill that bucket up. Having staff involved in fundraising is appropriate in any way, shape, or form to be really blunt other than to acknowledge it's happening, provide information for it. And that's absolutely correct. And in part two, because it then puts you in a compromising situation when the people you're asking for money ask us for something, or we have to give them a yes or no on something. And that's not a position that's at all, I think, implied. Not implied that we would do that work. I think the conversations that had kind of been running around was that there might be a separate fundraising group set up and it was wondering if there's any formalized progress on that in terms of. No, I think another piece, and again, feel free to correct me if I'm off point with us for the committee members. I think there's been a general acknowledgement amongst that group that the group that carried the project to the point where at is a different group than the project, the group that's gonna carry the fundraising piece for. It's not to say there's not some overlap there, but I think generally the skill sets, and frankly in some ways the time and interest levels too of the committee members is different. I think the folks who've been with us to date, in some cases have been content experts, I think Cindy and Jess in particular who've had experience running that school, don't have any formal fundraisers or folks with that type of experience necessarily on that committee at this point. Are you saying Mike doesn't make good baked goods? I'm not, I would buy a brownie for sure, but I think it's a different skill set. We've been fortunate, Carolyn Smith has brought her father-in-law who's got some fundraising background in to sort of do some informal advising and consulting with us which has been super helpful, but beyond that I think we're definitely acknowledging there's a need to look at adding some depth to that group. I think another potential timeline to explore from myself reading this is how long it would take to get reasonably hard numbers to support a vote on a frankly different number that's not the entire project that is realistic. And I'm just starting a conversation here, so by all means council, but I think what I would wanna see from that conversation is us giving, I for lack of a better word though a number that says to be realistic about what we think we can afford and what we think from a municipal tax-based growth standpoint, what we can sustain and what this community will actually support I think something we would need to talk about is whether or not there's a number to say alternative funding needs to be this percentage of the project and understand how long it would take to get through that process, both in understanding what that number might be, but also in how long it would take to actually reach that goal. Cause those would also have to be finite dates. There's too many stories of fundraising projects that meandered on for years with a thermometer that finally fell down, right? But I'm saying that's, I mean, we've got a really story I think putting some hard time fences around us. Okay, I've been talking a bunch. To that point, I think that also should inform some of our process on the preliminary engineering. If we think we might be going in that direction, we should ask the engineers to give us estimates of cost escalations over a year or two. I think often when you do construction cost estimates, you're estimating them in this construction season with an escalator, a market based escalator for the next construction season. They can do that out a few. It's harder when it gets out five or 10, but we can certainly ask Wes and Samson to look at that as an option as well. Just so we don't get into a trouble of saying, okay, it's $3.8 million now and we're actually building it three years later and we're not 3.8 is now, it's not 0.2 again. So thank you very much for doing this. I think the frustration that was expressed at the last meeting was, you know, really keyed off of the town meeting vote. But what I'm taking in the fact that it wasn't likely that that was gonna work, which was inconsistent for our beliefs, for whatever, whether or not we were justified in having those beliefs, some of us had those. But if I'm reading this correctly, even if there was a vote on town meeting day, construction could not begin next summer anyway. And so the recommendation is to have a different vote on a different date later in the spring once the preliminary engineering process is concluded. Is that correct? So, you know, a nine-cent property tax increases very significant. And I wonder whether the scenarios that were discussed by the pool committee ever really touched on this level of analysis that says if it's a $4.4 million project and includes estimated operating costs of this, that's gonna translate into a tax rate impact of this. Because what feels to me may have happened is people got really excited about different conceptual drawings, saw a price tag, but that's a very abstract figure. And a lot of energy around fundraising. But I wonder at this point, is there an ability to revisit some of those conceptual drawings and do this level of analysis that says, I mean, it's another way, I think, of getting at your point of- You draw a line of this as well. Nine cents is a lot. What are we willing to let go of, if any, to get it to a ballpark of? And what are the contingency plans if we have a million-dollar fundraising goal? You know, I'd be interested in a structured conversation with the pool committee and the engineering team around the intersection between choices and tax rate impact. So, and I would say, and I don't have all those- And how that interacts with the timing, I guess. Yeah, yeah, and I don't have all the different options committed to memory in terms of what those price tags were. We looked at, I believe, eight different options and those varied a fair bit in terms of that high-level cost estimate number. I wanna say the low was 2.8 and the high was like a little over five. So, we did see, at that point, some fairly different design options. I think that what we were really trying to do is not start a value engineering process too early because I think the concern, I'll speak myself, I think my concern in trying to guide that process was that if we start with a conversation of how cheap can we do this thing? I think you don't give yourself any wiggle room to come down without really compromising the quality of the product at the end of the day. I think the other piece that the committee very admirably tried to do is get to a design that reflected what they heard when we asked the community what it wanted. And so I think that 4.4, while it landed sort of in the middle to slightly above middle on that spectrum, I think was the best design from the group's perspective in terms of meeting what the community expressed as a concern or as a desire. But if you can't get the financing because the community won't support a mindset property tax rate increase, then it's sort of moved. Right. Yeah, yeah, and I think that's sort of, in my opinion, the next phase of this conversation. We now have a ballpark that we're in and I think it does become a community conversation about a willingness or ability to shoulder that or to your point, South, is there some happy medium where we say what's the absolute most this community will carry? And you guys go out and figure out the difference. Right, the estimate cost on that was high to be in with anyone, wasn't it? Didn't Mark, I thought he said that the estimate cost was high with some contingency plan in there? So there are some contingencies baked into that, those numbers, those 4.4, 2.8s. And that's spelled out, I think, in documentation you've had in the past. So there's a percentage for engineering contingency and for hazardous material contingencies as well. So I think as we mentioned at the last meeting, that 4.4 number could come down. It could also very well go up depending on what this next phase finds us. So, and I guess, so to answer the other part of your question, did we have an explicit analysis of this level with the pool committee? Not necessarily. I also feel though that we did throughout the course of the project talk about at a high level what the impact would be. At one point I think we threw out a number of 225 that we like back of a napkin based on a bond vote and some rough operating. So we were in a pretty 225 annual impact for a $225,000 form. So very much within a ballpark of where this project kind of is showing that it's going to be. But I think at that point we weren't at a stopping point of saying this is DOA, so let's step away and move to plan B. I think it was more of a yank, so that's a big number, but let's get to the end of the portion of this project that we were tasked with, which is coming out with a design. Right. I just wonder, you know, when you say have a conversation with the community about whether they're willing to pay that amount, it seems a little bit, that's a tough place to have that. Just to say, do you support a nine cent property tax or an increase for this pool? Yes or no? Maybe a more successful conversation or a more successful conversation in terms of giving us a direction. If it's here's what this looks like for nine cents. Here's what it looks like for five. You know, I don't know if it'd be go below five, but you know, it's a range of options before the engineers get too far down a road specking out that project. That's just a thought for consideration. And you could start with that foundation and then have people say, well, we really want that and it's okay, well then... We're gonna have to do some fundraising. You have to figure out a way to get there. Yeah. This is, so figuring out, yeah. Because this is not the only... Okay. I'll take your economics. You have to get those lines too. Yeah. Ron. For the record, in one still time I was engaged on from the community service commission to the pool committee for a number of months and there was some considerable discussion about the cost and what the community could bear. To that end, there was discussion about a logical target for fundraising. And the suggestion was 2.5 to 2.7 million, which would leave a much smaller balance for a long decision. I don't think at any point the pool committee was prepared to understand that the city would haul a whole load. We didn't talk about nine cents or anything like that, but we didn't talk about a bond issue of somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 million, which would be considerably less than nine cents. So there was recognition of some of the things that you're asking about in the pool committee. We did also talk about aspects of the pool design that could be dropped if necessary. But again, I would say the pool design that was presented to the council is a design based on our best understanding of what the committee desires. And so there's probably some reluctance to just go out to have some of this, but... One of those doors has to be open. Thank you, Ron. Yeah, sorry, Ron. I just wanted the doors like legally has to be open. Sorry, go ahead. I was essentially finished. Sorry about that. It was also discussed in the features and I'll just use diving boards as an example because it's an easy one. Everybody wants a diving board. They are expensive because your pool needs to be a certain depth also from an insurance standpoint. And so in taking in the considerations of what the community wants, there were certain things that we quickly did eliminate knowing that it would increase costs of build but also costs of running. So we certainly had in our minds things like that. And there was also a lot of conversation around how to create, generate revenue from the pool. And so we kept in features that would create revenue looking at that overall cost as well as the operational costs because you have a rough estimate of $100,000 to run that pool. And so you just have a bare bones hole in the ground pool and I don't wanna have my birthday party there. Whereas if there's a slide, boom, we have revenue generating income there. If it's lights, we have revenue generating income. So there was a lot of conversation around features that would be kept that were lower cost to build but could create revenue for the pool instead of just simply having a hole in the ground that was the most recent minor school. So I just wanna speak to that that definitely was on the forefront of the committee's minds. I think it's helpful to look at the tax implications by breaking out the what component of that nine set potential impact is operating costs and what component is debt service. And so just looking at the numbers, obviously it changes throughout the year as we pay down the principal, but especially in the first few years, it looks to be between 70 and 80% of that tax impact would be debt service with about a quarter, 25% of it being annual operating costs, which is between two and two and a half cents would be the tax impact for annual operating costs. So I think really if we're looking at what is the biggest component of that tax impact, it is the debt service on that. And depending on what the number of the city would have to bond, I mean that I feel like is the principal discussion around financially what this means for our community. So I think it looks like, I mean, regardless, the tax impact for annual operating costs is going to be roughly what it's going to be. And really the opportunity for wiggle room is on the debt service. And rates are going up probably three times next year. Take it to the bank, put it on camera. Christina. I'm somewhat of a discussion of the sort of thing. But I do know where it is a lot, I guess coming out of different groups, you have to move forward with this, if this is feasible. I guess I was blinded by the fact that I thought we had a plan for those who were working on this, that this wasn't moving forward, that we had time on. As a project manager, it all sounds very pleasant now, where I don't know this is moving forward, I don't know who's driving this, I don't, it sounds like we still have initial questions. You laid out a timeline, is that timeline still feasible? All these questions that are all talking about it now, can these be answered in time for some sort of vote in spring? You seem like a pretty big question. We have to go back to the community that takes time, it's November. I'm just wondering if you really think that timeline is feasible with all the questions that have come up so far. I just want to answer the first question about if. And that's because anything like this that we do is totally contingent on the people who vote, passing a bond and saying, I'll pay for it. I don't know if we're working on whether or not we feel we're in the forward of the project. So this group still feels like they want to move forward with the project. So if it's more, we're going to try to produce this as well. Right, and what that looks like. So I wouldn't take our, this is, we've been really committed to seeing this project through, I think, but there's always the, we have to put this up for a vote. And so when we say if it's always contingent upon the voters, giving us the green light to say yes. I've seen all these questions, they're great questions. Yeah. What's swirling in my head is, if they have a timeline, one of these questions that the answer has, and by who? Well, that's where we're at in the conversation discussion. I mean, that's what came out of the last meeting was we clearly need to clean this up and clean up the timeline. I mean, that's where we're at. This group's been also been working for over a year on this project. Right. So, yeah. So as a community, that's kind of like an effort. I can answer some of your questions. Yeah. We have sort of been on hold since the summer. We haven't had any meetings because we've been waiting for approval from the city council to move forward on the studies around the ground and everything. So, as a committee, we haven't gone any further. And we were told at one of our last meetings that Ray and the city employees could no longer be fired from the committee. And so, the current committee is trying to regroup. Okay. They're trying to regroup to see what the next steps are and to broaden it and to get a fundraising committee as part of the current committee. Because a lot of the members on the current committee aren't feeling like they can be part of the fund as part of it. They just don't feel like they have the capability to do it. So, do you want me to just go forward and answer all these questions everyone's asking? No, that's for staff. What is the place where we need the people we pay to be professionals to answer those questions? This is the first time that I've seen anyone. So, this is the first time that I've seen a timeline. First time that we've gotten any figures about how much it would cost a bond vote. When I received this, I was very shocked myself because nowhere during any of this process was it our intention to ask the city to pay for the whole thing. Nowhere was that ever our intention. So, now, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. So, I appreciate that. We're gonna get back to the meeting because this is a business meeting and I appreciate that there's frustration. If, no, I understand, I understand. And I tried to give that a little time, but I understand and you can absolutely address any of those comments here and the frustration here. No, I understand, I understand. What happens when that starts though is it ends up becoming just a, and we can talk to us too. I wanna give staff a chance though too to address any of those concerns that you just brought up. So, I can't actually see you. Hi. So, to answer what, I think, I remember your question, so the timeline we laid out is the timeline moving forward kind of a best case scenario timeline. So, if everything went smoothly and voters approved and we move forward with the design kind of conceptually as planned, bonding the whole project, I'm pretty confident in that timeline outlined. If we are changing some of those goal posts and saying, okay, we're gonna move forward with preliminary engineering, we're gonna get a hard number. Council is then going to set a goal of, okay, within this hard number, this is what we're willing to raise through a bond vote. Community, can you raise the rest? Otherwise, that timeline's not factored into this process. So, no, I think answering some of these questions that are coming up tonight could potentially change the timeline of this process. In terms of who is leading the effort. So, and I'm also new to this conversation. I think that it's being jointly led. I think there's a lot of community work that has gone into this through the pool committee and we certainly don't want to lose that active involvement. However, I do think it has shifted to a staff led project as of the last council meeting with the approval of the funds to do the engineering work. So, our staff, Ray Coffey and our DPW project manager, Ryan Lambert are now the leads on moving that engineering work forward. So, from a very kind of technical, professional management side of that, that's what we are now leading forward. What I was referring to earlier about fundraising, that is work I feel like we need to step out of and look to the community to do. Certainly, to the extent that the pool committee continues to meet, the city will be at the table for those discussions. If there is solely a fundraising board stood up, we would ask to be invited as needed to provide information, but don't necessarily need to be involved in every step of that process. Did I miss any of your questions? It is more that I'm just trying to make our property tax increases. That would then all go in discussion while we can still start the engineering work, while we can still turn the investment vote in the spring. But down the spring we have to start to have a good idea about how much we have to pay costs and how much we have to pay as a public board. That just seems like a fairly big lift between now and spring. We're also, by the way, we're gonna put together a budget and pass that. So, yeah, just that little thing. I guess I'm also wondering. I got a quick question. If your opinion will not make, if you think March is too soon for the bond vote, correct, when do you see it being ready for to go about that? Can you talk about spring, March to spring? Is it gonna be April or May? So in the project timeline, our engineers have laid out, which is available on the website, they will complete the cost estimating work the middle of March. So about March 13th is per their schedule. So then assuming that comes to the council, then we have notice periods required for a bond vote. So if we're going straight from cost estimate to bond vote, no intermediate discussions about other funding options. I think the soonest we could do that would be mid-April, sometime between mid-April and the end of April. Sorry, but then, yeah, there are potentially lots of other discussions. Yeah, and that's based on the timeline that's presented here, not with these additional questions that we have about funding. I mean, that would be just running a straight line number forward. Right, exactly. The bond application deadline is May 15th. May 15th, yeah, okay. Thank you. Cindy, I control. So what kind of timeline, if you don't mind me asking, what kind of timeline for fundraising did the committee think was viable? Like, did they think they could raise $2.7 million in two years, three years, five years? We haven't had that conversation because we've been kind of on hold as to... Our next step, I think, is to get our fundraising committee in line and to figure out who we're gonna elect, so to speak, to be the professional fundraiser, whether we have to bring one in from outside or if someone in our committee, which we have a member that has retired one, who's a professional fundraiser, who's given us some good points on how we're gonna go after the big fish, so to speak. But that's where we're at right now. We've been kind of installed, basically, we're waiting for the Brownsfield grant money and the funds to start the environmental study, that's, I mean, that failed, and we're about to scrap. We were trying to get that done in August, not November, and here we are, November. So I think once we gear up again, our committee will have a understanding of what we need to do for fundraising and who wants to be involved in that whether we get some outside people coming in, but we definitely need that head professional fundraiser to assist us on getting the most bang for our buck. So to speak. Understood. So even the reason, the only reason I ask is that it sounds like the major lift is gonna have to come from the taxpayers, at least at the initial point of it, because you can't start a project of this size. We can't go out to bond for $2 million, and then at the end of $2 million, wait for fundraising to come in to be able to finish a project, to follow me. So it sounds like the major lift is gonna have to come from the taxpayer regardless. Now whether the fundraising is a pay-down method or how that money is used, I don't really understand all that and I'm not gonna pretend to. That's why we have Angela. So. I guess I'm also just, I'm surprised I looked both ways as to why there's been no conversation about fundraising up to this point. And I'll look to you guys if that's conversations you guys have had or there, yeah, sure. I can speak to that. There was from day one, there's been a lot of conversations around fundraising. Even when the pool was still operational, I'd always be in touch with Mike's family and they'd be like, so what's going on? And we all knew the pool was dying. And so there's always been conversations about fundraising, how to keep it going. And then when we realized it was unsafe to operate, that was the first conversation, like we need money, let's fundraise. So the conversation has always been there happening when we had to close the pool to keep the momentum of the pool going. It very much was the sky's the limit, like that's where you wanna start any conversation about any project. And that's what Ray really, really imparted to us, which we're grateful for of if we're gonna do this, we wanna do it right. So let's start up here and then work our way down and not think about money because we do wanna do it right. And so as we started to see some price tags again on the back to diving boards, it was like, okay, that's not gonna be an option. We knew that. So the finances were always thought about, were always discussed, but not knowing the process with fundraising within a city. Me speaking a little bit to my fundraising experience that I've had in the past as well as what we're going through at my current place of employment, we knew that it was going to be a long process. We didn't know the details of how it would play into the city and at what steps certain things had to happen. So when it got to the point when we had a conceptual design to move them forward to Mike's point, well, if the ground's not good, we have a big problem. So is there sense in really trying to put some targeted numbers to fundraising and spend the time and effort to do that and get a committee going and get that energy there? If we find we can't even build a pool on that site? No, there's not. So when it got to actually starting to crunch the numbers before those numbers were crunched and brought back to us, the next step was really this initial round testing and figuring out that and then figuring out these timeline pieces. And that's where we left in the summer. This past summer and where we've now been just been waiting to figure out the timeline, what the next steps are, where the pool committee fits into the next steps, where a pool fundraising committee, so that's really, I don't want it to feel that we sack here and a list being like, well, this is gonna be easy and we can have whatever we want. That's not the case at all. Many times it was brought up by committee members, how are we going to pay for this? And that was, frankly, pushed aside by many people saying, we don't know, but that's not the goal of the committee right now. And yeah, and I sent in a couple of those meetings and reinforced that idea that that was not your jobs to figure out how to put paper on those things. That's not what that group was assembled to do. It doesn't make sense to ask them to do that. The next question I'd ask is too, so there's a newer committee formed or there's a band that sounds like a people at least having a conversation about who would like to fundraise, but that's really where that's at, at this juncture. Okay, I just want to, there's not like an advanced infrastructure created with a website. I don't know. I'm sorry. It's just a limited, I mean, you can only do so many fake sales or big deals with pool or concerts at Landry. That's not gonna bring them to the end. We need the professional foundation to come in and help us, get us pointed in the right direction to get us organized with the literature and the presentation that we need for people who want to open their pocketbooks to us and donate, make it part of their community as well. That's where we're at. And that was part of the conversation too, that if we're gonna go ask the community whether it's asking for $25 or $25,000 or $250,000, we need to have a plan. We need to show them what they're doing because to the point of we raise this money and then it doesn't happen, that's not an option. And so really trying to figure out how can we create a plan that everybody, the taxpayers, the city staff members, the pool committees on board with to then go out and ask for large ticket donations. Because yes, we have a conceptual drawing, but that's not enough to start asking people for $500,000 under you. And some of that I point out to say that it's also not like we can say, hey, have $2 million by, there's just, there's not, it sounds like to me there's no foundation really to work from in this case for that, from a reason-building-in-a-time perspective. So going back to the earlier comment about fundraise, I think if we set some random number as some kind of goal, I think the, that I brought up as an idea, that would be for an undetermined amount of time. I don't think that that would be easy to put a fence around in terms of how long it would take. That really concerns me from that perspective. I don't want to get off that note either, but I don't think we should stop. I think we should keep moving forward on all the other pieces of this puzzle. Well, we put the money in last time too, Mike, to do that. So that's been, that is absolutely moving forward. I think that, with engineering, all those pieces are vital and the fundraise will come, we just have to get organized basically. That's right. What I'm hearing is that you need to wait for the results of the engineering study in order to begin a fundraising campaign. And what we heard tonight is that that's not going to be completed until March, which means holding an April or May bond vote doesn't, doesn't, the timing doesn't seem to work very well. In that regard, I also am concerned about holding a vote in June when typically that's not a great time a year to get folks to turn out and vote. What would you bond for at that point anyway? We wouldn't know, because it would be an arbitrary number and it may not be enough to cover the project and we don't want to have the same experience that Rutland had, I don't think, in terms of getting approval for an amount that's not going to build the pool that the community needs. So, November 2018, there's a big election, generally speaking. It's a primary in August. I wonder what that, what, a November vote, again, that maybe that's not, I don't know, three or four months is enough time to raise $2 billion. I don't know how, I don't know what the fundraising plan is and what that timeline looks like, but I'd be interested in understanding does this timeline still work in terms of construction taking place in 2019 and pool opening if the vote happens in November? No, it does not. We would not be able to apply for the bond until May of 2019 if we were to vote in November of 2018. Thank you. Is it logistically possible with the bond history that you have or the bond knowledge you have to pay down bonds faster than the 20-year term? Like, is there a penalty for paying down bonds ahead of time? So, my understanding, we can research that, my understanding is that if you go through the Vermont Bond Bank, which is what we would do, you cannot pay them down early. No, they're a pool bond, they're a pool bond. So, from a moment. I think the question maybe you're trying to ask is if we bond for, maybe I'm reading too much into your question, but if we bond for four million dollars and only need two million dollars because we raise another two million dollars, can we take out less? I don't believe so, but we would have to research that. Then is it a viable option to take the fundraising money in a special bowl and pay the bond with it? If you're not going to have fundraising money, you would have to use any unspent bond money to repay the bond. I mean, you could hold the fundraised money for bond repayment as well, that could work. That would work. You can't do that. I'm just trying to, because logistically speaking, there's just no viable way without having the committee already up and running, having $200,000 already established so on and so forth, without having all that already pre-done, I just don't see a viable way to get to the bond vote with any logistical numbers other than the number we need to totally encapsulate this project. I just don't see how we could do that otherwise. I think you'd be selling it. The fund would just absolutely be held and it would be restricted only for that debt because it would be coming from an outside source that raised it for that particular amount. Right, so we can pool that money just to pay down that debt. Absolutely. So the taxpayer in the end would still be paying that, or would be paying less? We're just trying to think about the whole. They could pay less. If we had repayment schedule based on $4 million, but had raised $2 million to pay that down, then in theory, we, year to year, over the course of the 20 years, we would have to raise less tax money because we'd have this reserve we were paying our debt service from. That's exactly what I was thinking. You said it eloquently, thank you. There's no way to apply it sooner than later. That would have to be investigated at the time of the year. Bondholders expect a certain time to payment and they like that. And when you throw it off, you get this lovely word called arbitrage that then gets passed back to us in a pre-payment order. We could potentially use any fundraised monies prorated over time. You do bigger portions when the tax rate is higher and then lower it proportionally every year. Facing it out, pays out the bond. Yeah, theoretically you do a blended version of that. Yeah, I think the way to do what you're suggesting is to front load the fundraising or delay the bond vote till we know the funds we've raised and therefore you're taking out less in bond debt. So instead of $4 million, we'd be taking out a $2 million bond, then property tax payers, you pay the principal first essentially. The only cost to doing the bond for the entire amount rather than waiting for the fundraising is that you're essentially paying interest on the amounts that you also fundraised. Yeah, that's understood. But without having a viable number to work from, you have to have at least the project encapsulated. So now my secondary question, Eric spoke to it earlier. The 4.4, is or is not inclusive of the expenses for running the pool? Are we gonna have to go back to the tax rate for 100 grand every year on top of that? But it's baked into the calculation on the tax, the net tax impact. So not on the 4.4, but on the tax rate you're referring to, okay, thank you. So would the current numbers be about six to six and a half cents to pay the bond and two to two and a half cents to pay annual operating costs? For those at home, that's roughly $50,000 per penny on our tax rate. So that $100,000 operating cost per year wouldn't be part of your yearly budget? Or budget? It would. It would need to be part of the yearly operating budget in addition to the debt service that was committed to. And that's all captured in the spreadsheet that's there. That's part of that mind. Yeah, I think that's a good thought. But the fact is, if we're presenting a bond vote to the voters, we're gonna have to explain what the tax rate impact is and say, there's a possibility it could be reduced if certain fundraising goals are achieved. But it doesn't feel like the right order. I get a question, what is this $100,000 maintenance per year for the pool coming? The operating, so we got some numbers from Weston and Samson for the type of pool that was proposed in that option, kind of rough numbers of electric, water, chemical, kind of the utility type pieces. We took what has been our traditional staffing expense for the pool that's been a contract and escalated that basically by 50% because with two pools, you would need additional lifeguards. So that number is included in there. I can't remember, there's some custodial, baked-in, telephones and basic maintenance. You might have made it solid, so. Yeah, so yeah. This is the mobile line number in terms of everything more efficient than you did. Yeah, I mean, if you consider now the pool we were running was roughly a $50,000 annual expense and that wasn't inclusive of, and actually the $100,000 is also not inclusive entirely of the labor for public works that goes into opening and closing. So, yeah, so it's not a crazy number from an operating perspective. If anything, it might be ambitious. Well, we would also want to build reserves and. Correct. Correct. Enterprise fund it. No, not enough income. I'm just, I'm being facetious. I was gonna say, you can come up with a revenue stream then, but I'll set that. It's just an idea. But at that point, that $105,000 doesn't assume any revenue coming in. It doesn't, does it? Part of the reason there is that our traditional revenue on that pool has been very low. So, I think in the interest of being conservative and not overextending ourselves on the revenue side, we didn't estimate that out. Again, with new facility, potentially new pricing structure, it's really hard to predict what that number would look like. Typically, our income on that pool is a $20,000. It's like $4,000 a summer. So, pretty, pretty small drop in the bucket. This has been a good meeting. I wish we would have had one of these when we started this meeting. Because we're learning a lot of things here tonight that have been helpful through last several months, for sure. And I think we should have another committee meeting with our whole committee together and have you discuss what we've learned here tonight and find out how we're gonna move on from here because this has been very, very good. Yeah. All right, I think we're looking at some realities in the face, too, in terms of timelines. So, I wanna be, make sure we're mindful of the decisions that actually need to be made in the timeline of those decisions, because that's not on here. I mean, it is, there's guidance on it, but we have to decide what those decision benchmarks are and how we're gonna proceed. I guess, are there any other questions in regards to some of the details covered tonight on funding financing? Yes. Yeah, so we're... There is some group that's getting together to turn this. There's an engineering study done. We have a budget in front of us. There's no other group that's necessarily required to do anything other than us. We could vote to put it in front of the voters. That's something that we could choose to do. We could vote to say, you know what, let's just scrap this whole thing and be done. I mean, that's not reality, right? What we did last week is commit money to doing all the engineering pieces to get that ball rolling. So, the decision point is, number one, well, that's what we're gonna talk about. I want these guys to have an opportunity to think about that, because really the decision's gonna be, are we gonna push to have this on a May ballot? And is this number acceptable or do we wanna see this number adjusted? I mean, that's what I see as the primary questions in front of us. There's a timeline presented here. It's not necessarily the timeline that has to be accepted. That's not gonna make anybody happy to hear, but there could be a possibility of us having a conversation about what that benchmark we think from a funding perspective is reasonable and giving time for there to be some fill-in funding acquired and accomplished, but that pushes the timeline off again. So, we need to think through what those implications are and figure out if we're gonna push that funding forward or really pursue those if we think that there's real fruit there. You bet. I haven't seen the timeline, we'll look at it, but everything goes ahead as desired. When does it pull open, 2019 to 2020? So, if anything, like taking your fund raise before the bond is basically 21. If we don't get across, I think what we're hearing tonight is if we don't get across the funding from the municipal side, if we don't get across the funding finish line by the beginning of May, then we will be in 2021. Everybody's shaking their head, yeah. And the additional issue with that is stuff doesn't stay the same, it doesn't cost the same. Yeah, and rates and materials, all those things change. So, then our numbers move a little bit, it gets a little, you know, that can play in. Now that being said, there wouldn't be such an astronomical increase that we'd probably be looking at double the budget, but there's- I think that's far in any other fund. Push the pool down the ladder. So, some other project could come along in the next year or two. Be more of a priority. Be more of a priority than the pool. Yeah, I don't, that's not the way we've structured any conversations. We've pushed on because of access to some federal funding around a main street project, contemplation too, but it's not a prioritization between those two. That has not been a conversation that's been had here by any means, and it's not something that we've seen from staff. Well, I mean, we've covered it in three public meetings. So, I mean, there's a lot of information out there about it, so I won't digress into the entire thing, but part of the question we've had, we've got a lot of infrastructure issues on Main Street is to, because there's access to state and federal funding right now that we don't think is gonna be around, and there's a lot of interest in investing in it, where we could get a really good deal in terms of a return of beyond-matched funding, where we would just be a percentage of the money going into the deal. Where were we last time, you had conversations, for example? Of a percentage of money? Yeah, from a cost perspective, has anybody floated any numbers around? And the last form, so. It's so many different funding sources, it's hard to... I mean, we're looking at, if you're talking about total project cost between 10 and $15 million project, and at least at this point, there's a lot of confidence in different funding sources coming into it. Some grants, some negative or low interest loans. So that's a conversation we're having. Concurrently, it hasn't been either or prioritization conversation. The speed on that has been more of a press from the outside, frankly, from the state and federal funders who are saying, we don't know if this is gonna be around very long or forever, so that's something you wanna look at, but that's not something that, for example, Ray, from the community services perspective, is engaged in on a daily basis, right? So that capacity is not coming from the same place, Mike. Just to pull in a fall under that economic development. Fall under that economic development? Can't fall under that economic development funding? I remember that, did that all happen over the whole Main Street, all the whole border area, the economic development charter that you guys are involved with? That's a good tip. And I think you're, are you talking about the economic development plan? Yeah. What I would say is it's sort of mentioned in that conversation about community amenities and supporting vibrant neighborhoods. I would extend that as being something that's included in there, and I know it was talked about during some of those public meetings. We just had an initial overview of the economic development strategic plan, and it didn't touch on it in depth. Right now the planning commissions out there working on the overall municipal plan that that is a chapter of the economic development piece. Yeah. It is a pretty good size project, and another source of income for that for pool development. Yeah, I mean, that's, we had kind of heard when this whole conversation started that this was a tougher thing to find, I call it magic money for, you know, it's a tougher thing for magic money because I think a lot of state or federal funders look at it as, and I know that there's a lot of value to it, nobody's questioning that, but they'll use the word like, is that necessary? And we're having a community conversation about its value and what our priorities are, and that's a different conversation, but from a funding perspective, that tends to be the way it's treated. It's either not scored highly or isn't an available use for funds. So yeah, can you get us back on track? Well, I mean, yeah, a little bit. I guess, and I don't know where the best place to have that conversation. If we need to now hold the conversation and make sure we have dedicated time on our agendas over the next few months to make sure this stays on track or whether it's a pool committee, I mean, I'm not sure where the mix of people is, where the right mix is for some of these, the pieces of this conversation, but it seems to me that there are some trade-offs that are gonna need to happen along the way. One is, if it's a top priority to open the pool in 2020, then what are realistic fundraising goals? I don't know what those are, but it seems to me we ought to be able to get some information about that pretty soon so that we can all be on the same page around what's possible in a six-month period. Because then I think the discussion, if 2020 opening is a priority, then there has to be a discussion around what features are we willing to compromise on and maybe what is it that we can bond for, that we can bid and build in time for 2020 and then have fundraising supplement in terms of features. I don't know what makes, I don't know anything about pools, but I don't know what makes sense in terms of what you can build later. I don't wanna be in a position like Rutland was in where we have a pool and they're bringing in mobile homes for changing rooms. I don't think that's what anybody wants, but we need to be really, really thoughtful around, number one, what are some reasonable, realistic fundraising targets and a timeframe for those. If the decision is we want, what the community said they want, but we need to be clear with them, that means it's not gonna happen until 2021, then that's fine, but we all just need to be really, really clear about where the trade-offs are, because it's appearing to me like we can't have it all on the timeline some of us wanted to happen. You can't do all those things, but- And I just need to say, I'm not sure why we haven't dealt with this since August because I'm pretty clear that most of us on this side are committed to moving this project along, so I need to be clear that I don't wanna see another sort of lag in the action because even if we're gonna be delaying the project, there's a lot of discussion and decision that needs to be made around that. It needs to be communicated clearly. Communicated clearly, and I think you are absolutely right, we should have had this conversation a year ago, a year later than ever. Yep. Well, and I can speak to you to a little bit of the features, there's been some conversation on the features that pull in and talking with that with Mark from Weston and Samson on the various things. The reality is we did talk about a slide and the cost, so to say it was that slide, could we have the fixtures to add a slide? The features in the recommended design from the committee actually don't cost that much. Building a pool costs a lot of money. And so, I've heard a lot of, well, can we eliminate things, can we eliminate things? I firmly believe in the work that we did as a committee and also my professional knowledge of pools, the answer is probably no. To get, to propose a design that's two million or three million and then the four, we really need it down and the feature is another 200,000 dollars. It's not like we're gonna eliminate a million dollar feature. And that's the reality is that this project is expensive to build a pool, is expensive to operate a pool, is expensive in an area where it's operational for nine to 12 weeks and that's really difficult to summon. And you guys have always made it a priority which I appreciate is a professional in aquatics and I heard a whisper that we're teaching kids to swim. It's a priority for everybody. Unfortunately, it's a priority in so many of our lives that comes with an incredibly high price tag that's not always respected by federal grants and the people that have money potentially and that's really difficult and that's where the passion and the frustration comes in. I deal with it professionally and all of us in aquatics, it's so expensive to teach the scale that is life-safe, which is, but that's the reality. And so I think in looking at this price tag, unfortunately, we will, whether it's the pool committee, whether it's a newly revised committee of some sort, we'll see if we can will down the price tag. We have a lot of work on that and I think it's gonna be difficult. The reality is a harsh one. So then I think the discussion is what's the fund, what are some of the reasonable fund raising goals and timelines. Right. I think we'll always put it in, sorry, Ron. We'll always put it in and I think the community will be more engaged or at the pool anyway because of the community room, the services that we're gonna offer there. You know, you're gonna have a deli that Joel Schmoak can be walking down the sidewalk and get a sandwich, basically. I mean, there's gonna be some money generated from this pool and if we keep taking away from it, then that money book disappears, it'll help pay for the pool. So it's expensive to do. I think we'll get that bill in this pool, zero rent. I would tell him. I would tell him. Yes. Well, we might get your information. I don't mind, it's kind of difficult without a hot tub of your brown. I would just like to observe that the reconstitution of the pool committee will be advanced. I think considerably, at the point that schematic drawings become available because that will give them information about a more real cost. We're estimating your cost of 4.4 million. We really don't know what the real cost is gonna be. And the pool committee, as I move into a fundraising phase, needs to have more directed information that will be provided by schematic drawings because we'll give real numbers to that at that point. And, you know, at that point, the pool committee can then really actively get involved with fundraising in the community. There's already been discussion about who the major donors are likely to be, but the plan about how to approach those donors is waiting for some of that real information. You have to have all your ducks in a row before you can go and ask Mr. Heinlein. He's also, you know, we want you to give a million dollars. You know, whatever the target ask is, the more concrete you can be with your ask, the better. So, you know, from the commission's point of view, I think that I can speak for the commission on this small regard. I would encourage the pool committee to keep in touch with us. We can't have a formal relationship because we're a city commission. We can't have a formal relationship to their fundraising activities, as I understand it. But I think they can tell us things that ought to be passed on to staff and council. That's what I'd encourage that kind of relationship. Thank you. Thank you. So, I do really so tremendously appreciate the thought and the work and the insight that's gone in from the committee and the commission's perspective and getting us to this point right now and do also feel a lot of regret that we were having this discussion back in, you know, closer to August and getting some of this preliminary funding to do the engineer work. I would just say I don't want us to look at the work that will be done, a lot of the engineering work right now as well as discussions around outside finance or outside financing and fundraising. It seems very much like there's that balance of like which one's the horse and which one's the cart and what we're going to put first. And in my perspective, they're both horses and the pool is the cart. And I think that in order for us to actually move forward on any sort of timeline that would get a pool built we need to be doing both these things concurrently. Yeah. And I think too, we've got a lot of work to do with the public just generally. I think people need to recognize we've raised taxes 1.2%, 1.4%, 0.9% or 0.7%. Over the last several years and kept the city moving forward and accomplished some pretty tremendous things in doing that quite frankly. And I'm not shying away from that. We've done that in a massively fiscally responsible way and we've done so trying to prep people that we knew that there were some infrastructure expenditures coming down the line and we have pushed these humans as hard as we can possibly push them and ask them to do way more than is reasonable and pushed frankly, pushed a lot of bounds in terms of sanity I'm sure. And we need to have a really clear conversation with the community about what that looks like going forward. What impact this has now that there's a good number and make sure that's really well vetted. This doesn't work if it goes forward and it falls apart from a matter of a public lack of understanding about the financial impact and an understanding of what the investment is. So I don't want to lose, I don't want to leave tonight without saying that because I think that's really important. This represents a larger tax increase from municipal perspective than we've had in the last five years combined, four years combined. So that's a really significant ask and I want to be really clear that it's an immense sacrifice not only on behalf of the public but also frankly on behalf of the people we have running the city and we need to be really realistic about the impact on services that it has on the long term and long run and if that wasn't set at some point that would be responsible not to because that's a reality. We all need to have very much in front of our faces because it is important. It is something we've prioritized. It is something we've put value on but it doesn't... I said earlier there's no prioritization. If we do this, this is a massive prioritization of our funding and it's not a prioritization that lasts for one or two years. It's a 20-year bond. So I want us all to be really, really clear about that too. With that in mind, I think what might be good for us is to have a conversation with people that we think are going to be responsible for fundraising. Is that what I'm leaning to? We've got the environmental piece working forward, the engineering piece working forward, the funding piece is the sort of missing item. What are the consequences of us having those conversations between now and I know everybody wants to talk about it over Turkey but the first meeting in December to see if there's any chance there can be some kind of convening of those folks looking out there to have a conversation about what seems reasonable from a timeline perspective and maybe to walk through this with those people that we've already identified as fundraisers and walk through this timeline and explain it and instead of us telling them maybe have them also give some feedback to us about what is feasible and reasonable. Does that sound... Is that alright? What kind of putting together this fund... That's a great question for the community. I'm... I'm putting this out here to you folks who are sitting here today. I think the key is the city really can't fundraise. I think we can provide that information, that material we can unlock the doors to the building turn the lights on and have somebody you know here to help you. Because I know when this committee was formed we had to apply so basically this committee can seek out and form their own fundraising committee. I don't think that there's any... I think the only question the only question we would have is if we're blending any type of funds from the outside if there's any restrictions that we should make people aware of from source of fundraising I can't imagine that there is because we're not using federal funds and... The restriction would be placed by them that this was raised for the bull it goes toward the bull. It would be held by accommodation anyway. And that's what I was going to say I mean I... I'm not going to give legal advice here but I mean there's tax implications etc what you're thinking. Can I ask just a historic question that I should know they have to do. Was the pool committee appointed by the council? Actually the I think it was the community services commission because they're actually underneath the community services commission. Okay. That walks a very fuzzy line about opening up. Next step would be to talking to people who we know might be fundraisers. That sounds like people there versus these people here. Is that a different group or is that the same group? Well I just haven't heard anybody pull out their checkbook today. I mean if they want to write checks themselves that's good to know but what I've heard is like they've got... Yeah I think that's definitely a conversation that we can have from a community that I know I'm happy to have as a community member about what might make sense of that. I think from the capacity of the council or staff kind of jumping into that in a formal arena. It gets a little dicier. As community members all of us I was just trying to understand because once it was like we should start talking with these fundraising people and they said we should have a committee and you go sounds good go ahead. I wasn't sure where the Some of our cool community people are going to have to be involved in the fundraising committee because we know what's going on the event from day one. I mean it won't make any sense to start over again with another committee. I almost think our if people want to volunteer to do that all hands on deck in my opinion and then get that professional fundraiser leading us with some volunteers that we can make up that want to help out I mean so there's going to be some boots on the ground for this anyway but from the work in them and coming to these meetings the knowledge that we have in this I don't think we should be left out on that. I do think it would be good for us to have a structural conversation about what the timeline looks like from our perspective and what that is from a realistic standpoint and the other thing that I think needs to happen is that needs to be brought back here and this group needs to quite frankly before people go off and do that have a pretty firm understanding commitment of what we're asking people to do what the implications are of that in terms of our future commitments too it's nice right because this is a body that quite frankly could change it could change by three in March potentially and that's I think that's really important that we're speaking to right now as community members we're not giving marching orders we're not building the infrastructure around those efforts what happens in that kind of venue is outside of us what's been expressed is that there's interest in doing fundraising and that there's capacity to do that and that could in some way help the pool come to completion giving the community an opportunity to do that is I think what we're saying I think that would make I think that would make Baltimore happy can I make just a suggestion so I would strongly suggest that the pool committee sort of is no more or whatever because there are the pool committee was a creation of the community services commission and they are an extension and they are an open meeting lot all that stuff and the linkage with the city is too present I guess what I would say is don't we want to invite the folks in the community that the pool is a priority and they need to they want to take a lead on a fundraising initiative to come back to council at a specific date and present us with what they believe is a realistic timeline which will inform our discussions around our time that's exactly what I was talking about talking about at River Turkey so we have a meeting on December 4th we have a meeting two weeks after that on December 18th so I would invite this group to notify the city manager when you think you're going to be ready to present to council on the 4th or the 18th of December but we can't call ourselves the pool committee anymore you can call yourself something else you would be a different a new it's like friends of the Wunuski library the benefit that contributes to the library and it's going to be good people to talk to in terms of how they do what they do so it's just an idea of sort of dissolving the connection into the city you know technically that has already been done the commission determined that there could not be any connection with the pool committee upon the completion of the design component and we recommended at that time that the pool committee reconstitute themselves to undertake fundraising and other duties or tasks that they think is necessary to complete the overall goal so I think that technically there is no further connection with the pool committee from the city's point of view we did dissolve that at the commission level and our attorneys appreciate that comment especially on camera no I mean that's important it's a really important distinction to make I want to say before I leave if you forgot to do the stagnant of our committee to wasn't anyone's fault either we had James the guard Jesse came in Jess would you start in August? tomorrow we did have a change in the guard and Bray was wearing multiple hats so our committee kind of we got a little stalled out for that but it was for no one's that's right I'll address that and that's I'll be really blunt this is the seat that controls the agendas that come before this body and puts items on and asks staff to give updates and asks staff to provide prioritization lists so in my estimation if there's any failure it's right here in terms of ensuring this stayed on time from a community conversation standpoint and that it was it was brought out into the light enough sometimes you just know a committee's working and you wish you could attend them all and you wish you could you know every detail about where everybody is but you do lose track but that's totally on me that's not even on this body they haven't even had the opportunity to see something like this or have something like this demanded so I appreciate that semblance but I will also apologize that I think from my seat this should have been pushed harder and just frankly more closely watched sometimes you gotta hover on stuff that's the way it is and that's on me so for that I apologize to all of you because I know you put a lot of blood sweat tears into it so thank you for that and we're gonna work really hard to make sure that's not for naught and that this is given the full light of day and that we stay on schedule and have very productive straightforward conversations going forward thank you yeah and I again we're sorry for your frustration because I think some of it's very warranted oh that's okay speed it no look on the ground so just to be really clear too when that information comes back I think what we're talking about then is gonna be about the comfort level of that May deadline and pushing to and towards that okay so I think from an informational standpoint continuing to hash that those details out in the background I mean it sounds like you guys have kind of done that you're set up to do that I think the other thing that we should just kind of poke at and again limited resources I know we're gearing up for budget but between now and then if we can is also take a look at what the secondary timeline would look like just so we're ready to have that conversation if it's there if we come back and have this community conversation where people say we can't raise any money between now and then or we couldn't get a group together and it is what it is and we're not comfortable moving forward and we need to we need to take a look at that we should know what that timeline looks like so meaning if we can't get to May for a bond vote and are pushed off then what so yeah choose your own story opportunity exactly I guess just my first night here I'm really glad for all the work you got done I actually want to help with this for really my whole story but the point is looking at this sounds like we can't fund raising until we get the report which is in March the water or the groundwater until it gets in March that's fundraising also and so it sounds like we can either get a bond for 4.4 or we can raise as much as we can and get the rest of the bond and then raise the money and use that to pay off the loan which is a little bit backwards because we're paying an interest on the money that we just raised out there so and we fund it as soon as possible I guess I'm seeing a lot of disconnect as far as you know the way they can go fast and get done is just to do the bond and then like that and I notice I've raised money once you've got the thing there people are like as far as fundraising goes if you're going to help put a pool and reduce it then it's like let's make that happen but there's already a pool to reduce it and we're fundraising 2 years after to sort of pay the debt or get ahead on that there's a lot less energy for that kind of fundraising I guess I'm just trying to say what I'm seeing from this because we don't know we can't go raise money unless we know we can do it until we see the results in March I guess I would counter that by saying I don't think fundraising is just like a switch that gets flipped I think that there's a lot of ramp up to it that exists and a lot of especially at the sophistication that we're talking about of putting a dent into something like this so I think what would be good to hear back is what that looks like and if there is capacity there and with those knowns and unknowns and I won't say anything more about fundraising I think there might be people out there that might have an idea of how to address the fact that there's an uncertainty at a couple other levels and layers there's ways that that might be able to be addressed I guess is what I've seen in fundraising but I do appreciate that the reality is going to be we're not going to make any kind of decision tonight at any juncture we actually legally can't right we're on a discussion on it anyway so the best that we could do is vote on something you know in terms of saying go march forward on the May piece is in December anyway so hopefully there can be a conversation ahead of there that better informs clearly there's a lot of round work that we've done for fundraising and that should happen but even if it's all done it's all in place hitting the switch in March remember the report comes back saying yes we can fundraise that's still all in March and April May it's like two months we're not going to think unless it's all like people are teetering waiting for that to happen it sounds I think a lot of times people get like I can tell you with the community center very similar there were commitments made that's what people did it right and they were subject to and that's how everybody got I imagine that the pool is just going to be this giant area with plaques on everything you go to the water fountain you know there's going to be there's going to be tiles changing rooms separate for the toilet that's right wow I got the good stuff that's what it takes exactly if we're thinking through how these puzzle pieces fit into place though the discussions like we could not move forward with putting something on a made for a made bond without having a clear understanding of the balance between fundraising external fundraising and the municipal commitment I guess that was kind of my question is like can if we're like alright we're going to raise one of the four million do you make a bond for only three so if we don't raise that money then well I think those are future next questions to have and right now the charge for next steps isn't okay people who are going to be doing this fundraising work go out and come back in December with the council and start showing us checks that are piling up at all you know what is the putting together what a fundraising plan would look like as this engineering work is going on to really hit the ground running when it does make sense to start those asks and also what is a realistic capacity for fundraising so that we know how all these numbers play and do each other we kind of got that we did that in one of our meetings with one of our retired professional funders he brought us in a pamphlet it's like a 8-mike and we have a kind of an idea of how we're going to go and how we're going to set it up but like Ron said we have to get our ducks in the roll because if that one duck that's out it's going to mess everything up it's going to be harder for us to go back to that same donor if we fail the first time they're going to be even more on point with us so that's the key part of getting our package together and the presentation needs to be awesome I think from our perspective and things through what we or I mean by a fundraising plan is what is the capacity how are you going to go about collecting the money what are the actually what your fundraising plan is for individual donor meetings so if your fundraising plan also sets out a timeline saying when we get this piece of information from the engineering report then that will plug into this next step that we're taking and here's our overall one year plan for how we're going to gear up the fundraising you know if it's your fundraising committee whatever you end up calling it this is our one year plan for how we're going to gear up and here are our goals that we think are realistic and feasible as well it sounds like you know a lot about this wait wait till he's not sitting in front of a black man please please is everybody okay with that path any concerns I think you're right I think there's a lot of groundwork and a lot of hierarchy that has to be built within a committee like that and that can all start when you guys get home and pick up the telephone but you're right you can't really do much in directing this until we know what the ground is going to allow sorry this was incredibly helpful to us thank you for having me cathartic cathartic for all any other comments questions from council seeing and hearing none that was that closes a discussion item we have one other item on tonight's agenda which is executive session that was related to the deliberative session that is no longer necessary for the FOP hearing so with that I maintain a motion to adjourn motion by Nicole second by Eric any further discussion painting none all those in favor please say aye aye and those opposed motion carries all right alright thank you guys thanks for all your time work very very constructive very constructive very constructive oh I was going to go I was going to go I was going to get together what's that I think it's hard you know it's frustrating