 Today we wanted to talk about the mock meat type stuff. So Joey didn't really find my video the best on The mock meat situation. To be honest, I was quite triggered by it It's quite friggin. I Understand your sentiment. No, I do. I understand what you were saying But I had though I saw many problems from an advocacy point of view with what you were saying I don't think that your position outweighs the good of advocating for those mock meats Just based on the majority of society You're not going to persuade many people with a bowl full of lentils and some potatoes But people go from a burger to a pretty good Substitute and they go wow, you know if I want a burger can have this substitute like they're already eating greasy fried burgers Dude, you think they give it, you know, you think you're gonna be able to go Go from a greasy fried delicious flame grilled burger to Eat more potatoes because they're healthy For me like I fully understand why you're saying that because you feel see the danger in like People choosing, you know, like children like adults that Explicitly junk food get a sore tummy and wonder why the vegan diet isn't working for them And then throw the whole philosophy out the window with it But you know, I'm relying on people to be responsible adults and you know Balance their diet correctly But if they want to go out on splurge on a cheat day or a cheat meal Have you seen all these eating challenge videos on YouTube? You think you're gonna compete with those with some lentils and potatoes made Got no chance like we need the vegan magnums. We need the beyond burgers. We need the vegan cheeses We need the good competitive Vegan products So in that market that there is some form of persuasion for people to even think about, you know Cuz we're battling with taste Convenience, you know, we're going up against it, dude We're going up against the battles and the last thing we need is vegan advocates going these vegan products are shit You know what I mean? Like they might have made your tummy feel bad. Mine doesn't like if I have a burger I feel alright, you know in this in the full context of my diet. I can add these foods in and They're a lot more persuasive than lentils Yeah, so yeah, I apologize that it was triggering I think the thing is with the video what I like to do is I generally if there's like a gray area in something I like to sort of Do my best to come up with what I think makes the most sense and go for it And then like imagine like a blank sheet of paper when there's this a blank page Sometimes I like to just put pen to the paper and start drawing and sometimes it looks like shit Sometimes it looks good and I think that's what I did this time is I just started off By just throwing something out there and seeing what people thought about it And it was interesting seeing the response in the comments because so many people were agreeing with me And and I had like I did a poll earlier today saying what percentage of you people find that Mock meats and the substitute foods make you feel ill or what percentage of you don't have any problems with them at all And it was interesting to see that the majority of people actually didn't have any problems with them But it was 70 30 so 30 percent of the people said that they felt ill when eating the products So that is a significant portion of Front in the vegan movement, maybe people maybe 30 percent of people eating a clean whole foods diet They go out and have a beyond that of course they're gonna feel the difference Of course, you're gonna feel the difference But when we're advocating to non-vegans who already have a shit diet who eat beef eggs Fried bacon nearly every second day I only eat a little bit of meat But they're eating meat every single day and you go from a burger to a beyond burger They're not gonna have the same tummy discomfort that you have because you you're how long you've been vegan for Nearly ten years now nearly ten years, dude, and you eat what? All whole foods predominantly whole burger, but I'll just feel sick when I do But you are different do this is this is we're advocating to people who have Mostly a crappy standard American or standard Western sort of diet with me and if not that it's like They're eating meat every single day now the macro nutrient profile of a beyond burger Isn't that far off of an actual blood and flesh burger and it doesn't have cholesterol It does have saturated fat not the best for health But we're trying to close slaughterhouses here Now what do you think's more persuasive to the general population who haven't been vegan eating clean whole foods for 10 years a beyond burger with some melted vegan cheese and a vegan thick shake or eat more potatoes and Also, I wanted to say there's a problem with you advocating just telling people to eat more potatoes And your sort of rationale was that if people eat more potatoes, they'll eat less meat And that's better for animals. This isn't this is not vegan advocacy This is reducitarian hoping for the best advocacy people already know they can eat potatoes and yeah eat more That's probably got a you know way out there meat consumption You haven't educated them on the moral principle or the philosophy of veganism at all why they should avoid animal products and You know, I don't know. I think we treat people like children a little bit too much and I think you know, I Already think these vegan alternatives are super valuable now because 20 years ago as a vegan You couldn't even get soy milk at the shops now. I walk into my local Shop here you can get a vegan Magnum from nearly every 24-hour store here in UK you can get vegan Ben and Jerry's people what got the munchies. They want to have an ice cream They've got one. They don't have to exploit and kill dairy cows for that Yeah, yeah, and I think that's great. There's a couple things there I think that's great that there's the option to if you're feeling like some junk food If you're feeling cuz like ice creams for example Magnum that was never like a meal anyway That was always junk food in the non-vegan version of it. That was always junk food from the start So I'm not saying that it's gonna be all like people were thinking that that's healthy that they were eating a vegan Magnum or something Like I would eat a vegan Magnum once in a while So I'm not actually being against consuming these foods on occasion for treats. What I'm against is Well, not what I'm against but what I think is unhelpful is promoting them as one-to-one substitutes because if people are eating Beef three times a day or something. Let's say that they eat meat every meal There's some people who do that and then they just replace that one-to-one with Beyond burgers or something or vegan meats. I'm not sure if they're gonna have the same results Like I think it might make them feel worse. Like I don't know you're making a very Broad assumption there dude. Like I think you're stretching a little bit there Do you think there's that much different in macronutrient health profile from a beyond burger to a minced up beef second-grade beef burger? from an old dairy cow that's been exploited and the saturated fat cholesterol and Trans fats and heme iron in a beef burger and then you go over to a beyond burger it's probably got less junk in it and Not much difference into like I wouldn't say once like a beyond burgers much healthier But I wouldn't you know really say that they're gonna do that much worse and like I Don't know. I felt like you didn't really say that much in your video was more like Vegan alternative sir shit. That's that's sort of like the vibe. I got because what you're saying is right So there's less animals going to be killed because less people are gonna eat meat if there's these low-quality Bullshit junk foods on the market which give you a stomachache and diarrhea Like these are like basically what I think we said Bullshit products that give you a sore tummy and cause diarrhea They gave you a sore tummy and cause you diarrhea of ten year whole foods vegan But that's your experience and I don't think you were looking at from an advocacy point of view and looking at through the eyes of the general population and what they eat and like Just from experience bro from like what we're doing with advocacy is persuasion We these alternatives are like gold that especially the beyond burger is the best vegan burger on the market in Comparative to the other mock meats it if you I feel like it's the closest thing we've got and it's so much better for the environment Obviously less animals being butchered and killed Mate the stream quality is terrible Your is the stream is starting really really bad I can hear what you're saying in a roundabout way You're saying that so beyond me isn't that bad actually really in comparison to like the torture products The thing is what I would say is you've got all the cholesterol and all the saturated fat and the hemein as you say and those Unhealthy things that again. I contribute to chronic disease long-term, but I think short-term If you look at what beyond me is for example, it's just pea protein isolate mixed with oil essentially and I don't know how nutrient rich that is and how good that is like really like a lot of people have been saying that they Feel sick when they eat it and even if it's one quarter of people only one quarter of people who feel sick when they eat It's still quite a lot of people dude, I don't see the difference between a like The massive health difference between a minced beef burger and a beyond burger There's some major ethical differences with a big minced beef burger and a beyond burger like you know an environmental Differences between a minced beef burger and a beyond burger I think when you look at this holistically to trash the beyond burger is bad advocacy Yeah, yeah, I see where you're coming from but the but the way that I was looking at this was We want people to eat less meat and No, we don't we want people to stop exploiting animals to Let's me that's a reduced throw that idea out the window Like we agree man a hundred percent. We agree We want the abolition of the animal Holocaust industry that is first and foremost. We agree on that like I'm not I'm not I'm not like promoting meat over here or anything like we fucking agree a hundred percent man That's first and foremost, but what I was saying in my video is for those people who reluctant to go vegan and They want me and they're reluctant to go vegan then a lot of those people are reluctant Because they think the veganism is something which repels them or something like they don't like the idea of veganism A lot of people think the veganism to like girls or something or veganism for like Hippies or gay people or whatever like a lot of people like oh manly I need me and they don't like the idea of veganism So that's what I was saying for those type of people say eat more oats But everyone likes oats like eat more porridge like for those people who are never gonna be vegan And we just want them to kill less animals Then wouldn't it be better to say eat more oats then eat like substitute meat, which are never gonna We they're never gonna eat vegan products because they don't align with veganism They don't want to be vegan. I think you're making many assumptions here And without really any I think you're just making assumptions You know eating more oats Or maybe saying hey, why don't you choose a vegan alternative here and there like a vegan Magnum doesn't taste much different or like hey Try the beyond burger and you're lessening your carbon footprint by magnitudes more and you're not enslaving and killing an animal and You know, there's zero cholesterol in these burgers. There might be some saturated fat. Yeah, they're not the best for health I think you could you could say both. I think one is more persuasive Eat, you know and and this isn't vegan advocacy. What you're talking about is Scenarios where people just don't want to change and you're you're just advocating this reduce Reducitarian approach by saying bulk up more of your food with plant foods. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's more of a plant-based health approach That's not vegan advocacy and I I think Trashing the beyond burger in the process isn't the right way about it Yeah Yeah, cuz you're you're 100% right, but that's what I mean. I mean for those people who Don't want to be vegan Then that's sort of the thing that I would say because I've seen this so much that like you try and promote veganism But people were just not on board with it and I know you've got way more experience than me being a vegan advocate on the streets especially and But like don't you think that like you encounter so many people who are just not interested in the Vegan message, right? I Do yeah Yeah, so if they're just like, oh no, I don't care about veganism fucked animals I eat meat because I'm a man like I'm a big strong man and I eat my meat and they don't care about vegan products They don't they wouldn't ever touch the vegan meats Wouldn't it be better in that scenario to say eat more oats and potatoes? Okay, so if there was a scenario where someone wouldn't touch the vegan meats and they didn't care about veganism And though in those outlying scenarios where they this was the only option Yeah, it would be an option. Um, I would always always educate but this isn't the general You acted like for me it was it seemed like you acting like this was like the best option Like, you know, this is the way we got to advocate. I mean you're talking about outlying cases for the most part When I'm doing av or when I'm advocating people are pretty interested in what's going on on those screens And you know that it's pretty terrible for them When doing advocacy, it's important to reach those who are pretty open to the message And then when we get enough of us that are open to the message When we get enough of those people persuaded that's when we get a movement and then we can start changing laws for animals Waste, you know, when you got these people that are like really I'm dead against it. I'm dead against it I've met those people. They have a beyond burger. They actually like them I was recently did a three weeks worth of filming and we used the Iceland burgers no bull burgers in most of the filming and They were really persuasive for people. Oh, wow. Is that a vegan burger? Wow, I didn't know that you could have that and that's vegan. Um, I think these really these are really good tools to have in the arsenal Are they as healthy as, you know Lentils and black beans and greens and blueberries, of course not and you know, I just think when we're we're talking about these products We say hey, like, you know, if you want a burger, you can have a burger if you want an ice cream You can have an ice cream But you know, I think you should plan your diet, you know correctly So you don't run into any problems in the future But if you want these products, they're there. They're here. You can still have your burger and not kill animals. Um Yeah, I've I've been around many people You're the first real person I've had say That I've heard say that you had these serious stomach issues or diarrhea after a beyond burger I mean, it just must be you just eat so clean all the time for so for so long Your stomach just wasn't used to it or whatever. But yeah Yeah, well, I think with me the deal was that I came from a background of having intestinal upset and intestinal disorders and veganism or a whole foods plant-based diet made That all go away and then when like I occasionally will For example, when I was in miyorka In september last september I accidentally ate some feta cheese that was in the mill that I thought it was vegan cheese But it was feta cheese and like I had really bad digestion for like literally a couple of days So like if I have anything like that like animal foods just like make me really ill and junk foods like especially like if I have too much wheat gluten stuff Sometimes it can trigger it a bit. So I'm a bit sort of I need to be a bit careful with my digestion But I know that I'm a bit more sensitive than most people But like when I put that poll out in the comments that I've got it just seems that this I'm not so rare It with this sort of like how I react to the these products. I think there's quite a few people who Maybe don't tolerate them so well Yeah, yeah, most of you are following our vegans dude and a lot of them probably follow a whole foods approach as well You know and they might have some issues too But when you're talking about people who eat meat and dairy three times a day You give them a beyond burger They're not you're going to have the the macronutrient profile of a beyond burger isn't far off of a normal meat burger If you had a normal meat burger, you probably run into the same problem. So this is when we're advocating to The large scale of people a beyond burger in the arsenal is good. They're not going to really notice the difference um, I don't I don't Feels like that. Um, if they run into stomach issues, then you can go from there, but um I think I just feel like maybe like The way you came across was like really anti vegan products And then you went into like when people see vegan on the on a product. Um What what is it? It's usually junk food. Now people just think veganism is junk food. I mean if people don't know plant foods in the grocery aisle like bananas and apples and Blueberries are vegan then I don't know what to tell them because it's obvious that they are. Um When they find out that they can get a chicken nugget, that's vegan. They wouldn't have known that so yeah, it's it's like and and some People's kids want a chicken nugget and some people like having a chicken nugget sandwich and you know They've been they ate it since they were young and it's good to have an alternative out there If you ate chicken nugget sandwiches for every meal vegan vegan chicken nugget sandwiches You would be an irresponsible person because you would be It would be a detriment to your health And if you ran into health problems because of that like uh, you make old jacko did and then you wondered why you weren't feeling well You know, I just think that that's that's not very mature and not very response It's like passing off responsibility from yourself and putting it on the vegan products and then throwing your whole Moral philosophy out the window and start eating the flesh of animals Which isn't too much different from a beyond burger or like really like a fried Real chicken nugget and a fried corn chicken nugget. Not too much different Yeah, I guess we're getting to the heart of the issue And I think the main thing it comes down to the fact of responsibility So you just hit the nail on the head that if people are Irresponsible in the way that they eat and they eat a lot of junk food It it doesn't really matter if you're gonna eat a lot of junk food as a meat eater or eat a lot of junk food as a vegan It's gonna be equally unhealthy. I think The the fear that I was having with some of the advocacy is that people are saying Ah, like we've got all the these foods and promoting all these all those alternative sort like meat alternatives and promoting all like the um, like the vegan cheese and the vegan butter and the vegan meats and the vegan eggs and all that sort of stuff and I I feel like people get the idea that that is veganism That is what you should eat if you're a vegan and they're more expensive And it's pushing people into the direction of the it is It's promoting something other than the healthiest foods. So we're basically saying Go vegan and eat all of these things which are more expensive and less healthy than if you were just to go vegan and Eat like standard plants. I think I think foot soldier brother like I appreciate you all worry and your concern But when advocating you take all these things things into account when you meet someone who goes all veganism is too expensive You say rice beans lentils legumes when you say when they say, oh, well, I don't like processed food then you say okay whole foods for you and you know For the most part most of the population. I mean, I haven't done the research, but I can You could get a pretty good outline of what people are eating most You know these companies that do the best and like you got mcdonald's and kfc and burger king and pizza heart and ben and jerry's All up there in the top line You know chocolate people want vegan chocolate. Well, they ate chocolate the whole life They want a vegan chocolate bar, you know, so we need these in our inner Sort of arsenal But I guess if you excluded healthy whole foods from your advocacy too, that could be a problem um but like You have a holistic approach to the way you advocate and when these things come up You discuss them as they come and you know, hey, we've got we've got this. We've got the ice cream We've got chocolates. We've got the fried food got you covered kfc brought out a vegan burger today in the uk I'll be going to get it I'll be going to get it and I'll be making a video about it because guess what the chickens want The chickens want a vegan burger at every single kfc on earth because guess who that helps that helps chickens And we take our self out of the picture and we go, okay We take our our own, you know preferences out of the picture and we say what is best here For the animals who are suffering every single day getting murdered by the trillion Do we want some fish fingers that are made out of say, uh, soya protein or some corn Or do we want to say they're junk and then people go well if they're junk I'll just have the real thing then don't worry about it. Or do we say, oh, don't buy from kfc You know because kfc are evil and just and then they put on this vegan burger No one buys it Let's just say you had 10 million followers foot soldier and you said no one buy the the vegan burger at kfc It makes my tummy feel crap and just eat more lentils and then kfc don't get any sales They take the vegan burger off everyone who wants a kfc vegan burger when they're say out with their friends or They might not be as health conscious on that day. There's no vegan options at kfc Veganism is not convenient enough. You know, we need everything we can get basically We need all the tools in our arsenal we can get so Yeah, man, I definitely agree with you about the supply and demand that is definitely A massive point. Yeah, if if kfc put out the burger and it flops That's not gonna be good because we want to have the options available Right because I would probably taste test um, a kfc Um chicken whatever the fuck it is. I would taste test that as well because um Like I like eating stuff like that occasionally um, I think the whole thing was about the center of your diet where you place the focus on your diet and you I think you've covered it well that your style of Advocacy takes that into account that you are meeting people where they are if they are eating junk food Then you're saying okay. Well, here's the junk food alternatives And if they're eating more healthily you say, okay, here's the healthier alternatives And I think that's I think it really comes down to the responsibility and the quality of the message that people are promoting The fears that I have is that people are promoting Veganism to be these alternative foods. So they're saying like this is veganism basically So if you're vegan, you're gonna be in all this all this stuff Wait a second who advocates Oh, so people point at food and go this is veganism like For starters, obviously you know this more than anyone nearly like that veganism is a moral principle It's a philosophy we adhere to These products are just ways of us adhering to this philosophy. You know, um We had Leather alternatives. We have burger alternatives. We have chocolate alternatives that don't involve enslavement and murder of direct murder of animals like You know If people are pointing at food and going this is veganism They should be pointing at the philosophies and say hey, this this food is the extension of the philosophy You know, we've got all these alternatives and these are great and hey, we've got whole foods Which you know from a health perspective if you want to advocate for you know, reducing Heart disease and diabetes and cancer risk and all that whole foods all the way Um, you know and if people have a burger every second weekend, they're not gonna Really run into too many issues and it's good that people Have that option, you know and um, yeah 100% agree man a burger every second weekend is absolutely fine The the issue that i'm seeing is people promoting like people Like for example, if we just say for example, jack o' wacker, we've already mentioned him in this stream Every video his dinner was just the alternative meats and stuff the mock meats he even had like t-shirts and stuff and um Like everything was mock meats So he was living a diet of mock meats and then got ill and turned into an anti-vegan or not an anti-vegan but he's he's now like a bit confused that veganism's deficient and that um animal foods have more nutrients and stuff like this and Saying some random fallacies which like i debunked a couple of them When we live streamed and then he went on primal edge health and started Saying like similar fallacies and like common man like Edges healthers he did we went on that channel? Yeah, he went on primal edge health. Yeah, and uh, but i've been on primal edge health as well But i i wasn't like i was sort of like going up against him in the discussion instead of just like being a yes man in the discussion and um, so his his diet wasn't good. He was an alcoholic from what it looked like I don't think it was an alcoholic But i think he was drinking more alcohol before he gave up veganism like he went into a downward spiral But he wasn't like an alcoholic Okay, well from he looked like he was addicted to alcohol from the outside. He was drinking a lot um But he was making bad decisions when it came to his diet If if he was eating, you know meat junk food I don't know if that would have had very good effects on his health either You know processed meat every single night, you know like It's just an irresponsible thing to do like hey You know the bulk of your diet the bulk of my diet is plant foods, you know I attract my stuff on chronometer every day and like it's pretty nutrient dense. I mean Um, I know when i'm going on a junk food. I'm conscious of that. I don't feel as good. Um That isn't you know a reason to throw your morals and your ethics out the window like there's other ways like I think He really Might have got to you a bit foot soldier. You felt like you know, we lost someone that you thought was really You know dedicated and that like you were like well, maybe you feel a little bit like you know That's why you're so maybe against These junk foods you see the danger and people just eating them and then them throwing their philosophy out the window I don't think it was just the junk foods I think it was that and a combination of him getting peppered with all of these You know carnivore people going oh you're getting sick. Oh Look at your eyes. Oh, maybe like it's this you got to stop me veganism is deteriorating you and he didn't feel very good And it started to get to his head and then he was really under suggestion from everyone and he was really easily like swayed Yeah, definitely. I think gaslighting was a big portion of that as well Yeah, and he didn't really look at he doesn't know much about the science either So like he was just like oh you believe dr. Groger and like maybe you should read the science and he hasn't even read it himself Like oh dude. So like yeah, he did he did say like oh, yeah Everyone's promoting like the china study and shit. They haven't even read it. It's like well. I've read the china study I've read a lot of these these uh These studies. I don't just read the abstract sometimes I really go deep and read an entire study or I'll look into like he was saying like the the peer reviewed statement um From the american dietetics association that no one had read but like I'd read that and it's like Oh, you might have not read it. There's about a hundred references. This isn't like 120 references to other studies Just in that that paper that peer reviewing paper alone like all the references below it. There's heaps Just in that in that paper like they don't just come to conclusions like that and make that the position of the biggest nutrition um Sort of association on earth without it being very rigorous. You know what I mean? Yeah, the science is definitely on our side and there's not really any science whatsoever on the carnivore side that makes any sense, but people just seem to be swayed by it because There's a few people. There's a few people that are persuaded by it, but I You know I think that that's just a fad that that movement there It's just a fad people are going to snap out of it sooner or later Wouldn't it like I think if you want to eat just meat, mate, just See what happens like, you know, and so it's just a matter of time vegetable police tried it and his kidneys almost exploded so We've we've seen someone who went over to the carnivore diet and he didn't detail well at all I've seen your commentary and you've got some really good. Uh, you're really well researched and you do some really good response videos, bro um I I I agree with why you're I know why you're concerned. Um, I just think when you when you take Um, what you say you apply it out to the the population scale um I don't know if it's the most Going to be the most effective in for the most part. Um, I think there are outlying situations where that where your that Style will work. I think we have to be multi-dimensional in our approach And choose the approach that is most broad that is going to appeal to the most amount of people And not everyone is a hundred like your 10 years whole foods vegan. That is like the pinnacle, dude That is the pinnacle not everyone's even gonna be like not even vegans They're adhering to whole foods for 10 years mate. Like that's hectic. Um, you know, so You you're a bit, you know, and I think we got to take our personal experience sometimes put it aside and go, okay Let's analyze the the majority of the population Do these vegan um junk food products help animals? Are they helping the vegan movement? You know and you your argument was they do more harm than good. You're at the title of your video, dude I know this was clickbait, but mock me kills more animals I was like has he gone carnival? It was a bit clickbait man But um, but I wanted to just sort of like take an angle and see if it resonated and and sometimes what I do is I'll make a video Uh with a position like let's say there's a there's an area of this is a general sort of position There's like a broad range of positions Well, I'll take this position and just like make a video on it and see what happens And if everyone's like no, you're you're a dickhead then I'll make a follow-up video and say yeah Maybe that wasn't really the best thing like we're doing now. We're making a follow-up like I put something out there I put pen to like there was a blank page. I drew something on bank blank page It wasn't the best drawing in the world and now we're talking about the drawing and and seem Trying to find the truth and we're making a follow-up to that now and we're trying to discover the truth there So I think this has been an interesting conversation. We've like definitely seen a broader perspective You definitely think that people it's these digestive issues don't affect Um, the majority of people. These are just more sensitive type people And maybe I'm just extrapolating my own experience to the general public Uh, which is maybe a fallacious thing to do you're saying basically Well, I just think when you jump from a The standard diet like that people are eating meat three times a day burgers on the weekends and beer and you know Whatever the majority of people are eating Little kids eating chicken nugget processed chicken nuggets every day and stuff like that And you get them onto some, you know vegan mock meats and the rest plant foods and use the mock meats as a compliment I don't think people Generally like what like I don't think people are going to run into the same issues You are the hypersensitive whole foods 10 year vegan um What we see more of I I will have to say is that if you start bulking someone's diet up with A bunch of lentils and a bunch of beans and a bunch of potatoes too soon They can run into some Discomfort as well. So I think that approach might you know, just go completely boom salad and beans go for it and um You know, sometimes it's better just to to meet them where they're at with what their diet already looks like macro nutrient profile Just switch out the Veganize what they already eat sort of thing and then if they want to move on to You know the more pinnacle of the health stuff add in more whole foods as they progress and as their ethics become Reinforced into them stronger. Um, I think meeting them where they're at is probably One of the better approaches We'll wrap it up in a sec because I don't think there's Too much more to talk about but let's just take an example. Let's say that someone is eating Meat three times a day. They're eating meat and vegetables and they're eating meat vegetables and potatoes like meat two veg That's like what my granddad always used to eat meat in two veg. Like it's quite a british Standard thing to eat like beef and a bit of vegetables like people call themselves meat in two veg men Like in the uk i don't know if you've heard that before like let's take someone like that And just say veganize it Then what they're doing that they're they're keeping everything and just adding the substitute meat for every meal, right? so Do you reckon that's as good or better or worse or do you reckon that's a good idea? Just eat the replacement meat three times a day or what do you think? Okay, so you said um, do I think it's the best approach to replace three meat meals with three meat alternative meals? From a vegan standpoint, that's very It's going to be better for animals going to be better for the environment. Is it going to be better for their health? Probably marginally, um replacing polyunsaturated fats Replacing saturated fat and cholesterol with polyunsaturated fat seems to be better for heart disease, but um Is it is it going to be better financially? Well, it depends on what their sort of financial state is I mean can they afford that um in that sort of case and you could say hey Veganism can be cheaper. You can have oats for breakfast. You can have your beans and You know salad for lunch and then you can have your vegan pizza with vegan cheese on it for dinner um, I think incorporating these foods into their diet where knowing that they can veganize what they already eat Would be a massive thing for them to know. Um Completely veganizing their whole diet You know what if if they're having a roast we could have a tofurky roast if it's outside their price range We could talk about that. Um, I think every person you meet has different sort of um obstacles and I found that too so They might be Really low income. So you might have to meet them there. They might be heavy heavy meat eaters All right, which would be a problem for their health there Then you might have to discuss with them how this is not good for their health and maybe they can Push that sort of out of their diet more for more whole foods But if they want burgers don't deny them. They're beyond burger So you think it just comes down to responsibility basically So if they're going to be in three meals a day as an uh advocate You you would be saying yeah, maybe like try some porridge instead for breakfast anyway Like you wouldn't just be saying like boom like to switch out one to one We'll switch out. You can switch out your milk easy. You can switch out your cheese easy. Um, I think meeting them where they're at where they're at. Um, maybe getting them to incorporate more whole foods that are cheaper That would be a good selling point too Um, uh, give them the alternatives to what they already eat like, um, if they eat shepherd's pie Give them a vegan mince alternative. It can be lentils. I usually give them both I give them both like what I've been doing is for mince I say hey can a lentils or a bag of lentils or some dried soya protein Or you can have this vegan mince from the supermarket. They're different price ranges and different health value So you can give them multiple different alternatives Like it just comes down to who you're advocating to if it was me just advocating to as many people as possible I'm going for the juiciest, um, vegan alternative. We've got on the market the vegan magnums the ben and jerry's the You know the the beyond burgers To reach most people, um It on a on a one-to-one basis. I'll be more specific. You know what I mean? But I think yeah Just broadening our brush as much as possible thinking about all the obstacles people have financial dietary health Fundamentally we want to persuade people to stop Supporting the animal holocaust, you know and in whatever way you do that and I know you just want what's best for animals like we all do um I just think we've got to be careful about What we say about vegan products. I mean we've got to be honest But not throw them under the bus Yeah, yeah, yeah, I I did go a bit aggressive that in that video, but um, I don't know um, yeah, I think this video has served a good job of Discussing both sides of the perspective and speaking to joey who's got tremendous experience in the activism Actually in just doing real world being on the street talking to people Just talking to so many people so he's got so much experience So he's definitely a guy who we really want to hear his perspective on this exact issue I hope this stream was useful for a lot of people. I think we've had a nice discussion We've seen both sides of the perspective and Yeah, let's just continue the conversation. I think I was too aggressive I do admit joey that I was too aggressive in that video and I shouldn't really throw the plant foods under the bus And um, I think there is a happy Medium to be found and I think really what I have taken away from This conversation, especially is it really comes down to the person You have to meet people where they're at as you're saying you need to be a good activist and know How to reach someone with the correct message That will fit for that person But at the end of the day, we both want the same thing We want the end of the animal holocaust and we want less animals killed and we want Yeah, we just want the world to go vegan. It's just sometimes can be a very frustrating world to live in with So many people not given a fuck despite the passion that we all bring to it and Because the urgency of the situation of what's happening to the animals Yeah, and we're all trying to find our way as well You know, there's no handbook on this and you're trying to find your way And you've seen problems because you're in the vegan youtube community I think that the problems in the vegan youtube community are a little bit different To the problems you face out there on the front lines when you're advocating to large scale Um families and stuff. Um, so I I agree with you In sort of theory, but in practice for the most part, I just don't think it's going to work broadly But um, I want to say you've been doing very well. I've been watching mostly videos. Good job. Keep up the good work You've progressed so much. You're well researched. I think that's your intellect is at play You're really good with that sort of skill set of retaining information and you're really good at debunking nonsense So keep up the great work, brother. Thanks, man. Definitely. I really appreciate that and uh, yeah You're definitely someone who I hugely look up to And yeah, keep on doing what you're doing, man. And uh, yeah, thanks for coming on the stream Um, it was it was really good. And uh, I guess we'll leave it there for today people So I'll see you all in the next video Good good topic of discussion really good topic of discussion and yeah, it was really Like when you were talking in your video, I was like, oh He hasn't thought about that part and that part and that part and that part So like it really did get me stimulated into the thought of like advocacy and I I know where you're coming from, dude Like, um, you're worried because of what you see on youtube with jacko, especially that was a real Shocker to be honest. I was pretty shocked about that. Um, because he's a good guy I guess like when I was doing my epic vegan meals, they weren't health meals. They were just completely Junk food meals. I was doing that deliberately to show people. Hey, you don't have to kill animals You know what I mean? But that that wasn't the full composition of my diet and people thought it was a what I eat in a day video These were epic vegan meals. These were like, you know what I'm saying? So like for the most part I eat a pretty healthy diet and um Keep myself on track I just think that's irresponsible for someone just to eat Vegan junk food at the exclusion of everything else and then blame veganism for that. That's like that's very Childlike behavior Bro, I want junk food. That's vegan. You know what I mean? And most people do you know and we need to know Can we get junk food? That's vegan or am I going to be eating broccoli and potatoes my whole life? You know what I mean? Like I'm okay with that if it if it means not stabbing animals in the neck I'll do what it takes. You know what I'm saying? Like I'm not going to go carnivore if I've got a source tummy You know what I'm saying? But like most people we need to persuade normal people man and like When they walk in the supermarket aisle and you get them a beyond burger I'm grabbing them dude if I want to persuade someone's dad To eat a vegan burger. I'm not going to get them the lentil patty I'm getting them the full fledged beyond burger with the vegan cheese and the vegan mayo and the vegan bacon crispy And I'm making it double stack these carnivore people are polluting The the movement with doubt. It's ridiculous that people are listening to them Vegan dieters Vegan dieters, dude Vegan dieters, you know, they they're jumping from diet to diet like a trend Vegan, they're not vegan moral principle holders. They're not Animal rights people, you know, they don't understand and that's why I promote veganism The way I promote veganism is through animal rights, which the word vegan is to do with animals and we need to You know not promote veganism exclusively as a health diet, which I see so many people do Right and even the bodybuilders and all of that like they mostly 95% of the time are talking about the health Promoting veganism as a health diet and this is where people go. Well, you know, this is where they jump around They don't understand veganism to start with dude From where that from day dot because they were taught the ideology of veganism From a false premise from from the idea that it's a diet a health diet And a whole bunch of people because they were never in it to the animals They're just raw foodists, dude. They weren't vegans They weren't vegans like in in my in my eyes. They're just raw foodist vegan dieters Um, I don't think this reflects the majority of the population dude. I think people are waking up on mass still even though there's Outliers that are flip-flopping Uh, I just think the the youtube community is a lot different and I don't know if it represents The population as a whole. I just don't I'm just not sure about that. Um We'll see, you know what dude? I just think from even from my own perspective this whole Vegans dropping out because of their health ailments thing has gotten me really promoting My own health more and I'm like my mental health is improving. I'm in the gym. I'm looking tanned I'm making sure I don't drink caffeine anymore. I don't overwork myself because you know I'm just overworking myself, but people will just use any excuse with me any excuse. Oh, look, he's got bags under his eyes It's veganism. Oh, look, he's got pale skin. It's because of veganism Oh, look, he's you know out of shape because of veganism. So I'm just making sure that I'm Kind of waterproof in the while I'm promoting the uh animal rights, you know, so I look good I'm eating predominantly healthy I'm rep I'm representing the animals and I'm promoting the vegan alternatives And I'm doing that responsibly responsibly while promoting whole foods for health as well But but making sure people understand veganism is a moral principle And as long as they don't stab animals, you can have your burger just you know, but make sure you're responsible with your diet as well Um, I just think having a holistic approach So we don't skew ourselves into these niches where we're like exclusively healthy or exclusively this we just want Animals to be liberated and we we make sure we adapt Where we need to and encompass The whole the whole spectrum as much as possible They're blaming veganism for their own irresponsible Behavior and lifestyle choices, you know like if you get drunk hop in a car and kill someone You don't blame the alcohol. You don't blame the car. You blame yourself. Don't drink the alcohol. Don't jump in the car You know