 So what I, what I thought I would do today, I didn't know the tenants is a lot lower than I thought it would be. I thought we'd at least talk through some of the ideas that we had from and say we, the last time we had like a real meeting was probably the middle of an inner September right before a lot of the conferences and events started kind of taking away a lot more time from people so these items over here on the left were the things that we had talked about, no kind of network extensions for no policy for CNI. Maybe looking at like extensions for like routes within cloud native specific capabilities that maybe above the CNI layer. We had kind of talked about, you know, you have the interface and you have sort of things above that interface and routes seem to fit that category and other things might fit that category as well. We talked about several low balancing IPv6 DNS service chaining slash sharing of you know how you can you discover these services how do you sort of define network services and how they can work together. Especially there's like a dependency need there. And then things like you know service mesh and network observability were topics that we we touched on as things that really hadn't been defined very clearly for for cloud native use cases so I kind of thought we'd start with these items and you know we can add other items to this if we wanted to or we could just sort of start with, you know, trying to, you know at the next meeting, maybe taking a couple of these and trying to define what we'd want to do within within our environment, you know within this work group to address these are a few others, you know, yes, when the serverless works we came up with kind of a landscape for serverless and I didn't know if within the network land within our cloud native landscape today we have networking as a category but I don't know if that's really the thing that we want to define the network for cloud native right sort of a bunch of network vendors right now, you know, and their projects in there. So this is just like a question I'm not saying we have to do something that was something I thought about was sort of looking at network from different areas kind of like serverless did. So, we also did like a white paper in serverless to kind of talk about what that means in terms of cloud native and I don't know if it makes sense to have a white paper sort of white papers around networking and cloud native on what that means. Yeah, I'm enthused by both by nearly all of these to help brainstorm a bit and reinforce the network landscape. It's been, I just popped the link over in zoom and it's it's been maybe 18 months or so about a year and a half ago or more. The CNCF staff had asked for me to put together a perspective on at the time it was container networking and it was to help facilitate a panel. I think it was an ONIF a panel there. And part of that was I actually called out the cloud native landscape at the time. And yeah, I think that was pre serverless landscape was pre sort of sub landscape if you will. And to make it simple and based on the time that I had, I tried to characterize and contrast for prominent projects. At least, at least back then, and it was yet to help at the time it was to help facilitate a discussion and a panel and. I'm just brainstorming out loud about the possibility of a net, you know, like a networking landscape. Right. Yeah, it actually if you think about that landscape actually if a landscape was defined it might actually even help describe some of the other cards that you have there. Because you can imagine it in a networking landscape if we've got categories here, you know, right now it's application and application definition and development orchestration or management on this landscape but pre networking when it might be security, observability, management, routing, you know server load balancing routing, you know, it might be API gateways that might be because network as a term and as a space covers. In some respects, unfortunately, like, well I guess, I was gonna say it covers some of the same things that are on like the ones that are highlighted actually are. No, no, no, but there's many that are networking related on this landscape even this old version here. Right. We certainly list some of the same projects there. I don't think that even that I think kind of helps right because it shows it kind of shows what's in scope for what group versus what's covered by other areas, you know. Yeah, right. Right. This is from the standpoint of, you know, with with Kubernetes having SIGs now, and they have a network SIG, I was kind of thinking of, you know, what's our purpose in this ecosystem? You know, we doing the same thing as a Kubernetes SIG should we join forces with them. And then the more I thought about the more I thought about, you know what, you know, the Kubernetes is very focused on Kubernetes and we're supposed to be more focused on the cloud native landscape principles or what what it means to go towards cloud native right and we're from a user standpoint I think. And so I can't thought, you know, maybe we, you know, we highlight where the Kubernetes SIG fits into this but we don't try to address any other things that they're trying to address or we maybe have requirements that we have to submit to that SIG to address some of the needs from the user community right. I agree. I agree. I agree that in the past they've been confusing with people to raise it up that the challenge from my perspective and responding to that question was that it was undeniable that the net of the communities networking SIG was a greater center of gravity than, than this working group was areas, I think, I think with organization like this and discussion, I think we can change some of that. And to your point, like, yeah, hey, there are things there are concerns in areas to address that are well beyond Kubernetes and things that are, you know, certainly of concern to end users and to vendors. There's, you know, between hybrid things work well, you know, Kubernetes on-prem, Kubernetes running as a service. The networking between those, there's a number of, like, like ingress controllers is kind of a good example. Like, it's something that certainly the Kubernetes focuses on in terms of their networking SIG, but there's a number of projects within there. How do those relate to each other? Maybe they should be laid out on a landscape. You know, something of, it's been interesting to reflect on why a project like Envoy took off as well as it has in comparison to something like NGNX or traffic. And there's a couple of, and it's not that we need to go get into politics. That's not the point being like highlighting, here's why this, here's where the cloud native aspect of this project has helped it see much more adoption in these environments. And I think a white paper that discusses some of that is of interest. I recently recently pulled out a report through O'Reilly on service mesh and some of what I'm talking about was spoken to in there. I think, yeah, it's kind of fun. It's kind of interesting because this working group, like it could have so much to discuss of these topics. Do you know, so Core DNS as an example, I'm assuming that I haven't been involved in that group, but I'm assuming they've got some other community where they meet within. But maybe, maybe that, sorry, I'm just ripping here, but maybe that's what a card to put on here is potentially, like you'd said, going over to the Kubernetes segment and submitting some things to that, or actually going over to those other projects like Core DNS, or Envoy, or Istio, or, you know, or what Calico and et cetera. And we've had a couple of them present, but maybe one of the themes, one of the backlog items is something of a regular cadence of the presentations from that and kind of where they're going. Yeah, I was thinking about that too. That's a good way to, I didn't have a way to define, but that's something that's a perfect way to define it. I think the value to them is feedback, exposure. I mean, conceptually, if there were enough folks that were attending these working group meetings, I think it wouldn't be valuable to them, the exposure to feedback that. I think so too. And I think once the, like the end user community is getting a little bit more, it's getting a regular meeting cadence, not going to present to them in an upcoming event, you know, a meeting to kind of say, you know, some of the workloads we have today, we love participation from end user community and things that you're trying to solve or problems you're facing in the network area. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, for MasterCard standpoint, we have several things that I was going to, you know, bring up, but I'm sure that there's other other industries with other issues and concerns are trying to solve. I want to reflect for a moment and give ourselves some credit with respect to trying to help the industry address. One thing that pops to mind address some serious contention around the adoption of CNI between Swarm and Kubernetes back when that was, you know, back when that war was raging. And so yeah, this is an excellent vendor neutral forum for, you know, for this discussion. Yeah, I think there's, it's interesting in the certain when we, when we collaborated on the serverless white paper and we, you know, part of it was like defining what is serverless. I mean, what does that mean. I mean, interestingly, and I don't blame anyone for it, but the service match as a buzzword, you know, everyone wants to, well, most want to rub a bit of that buzzword love on their project. And their project may or may not actually be a service match. Right. In a white paper, you know, maybe suggest that we're laying it down in the description for qualifications of what it is to be. I am concerned. I'm interested. I'm very pleased to see that you're doing this. I'm happy for having this discussion because I'm concerned that as we go to define, as we go to reform working groups and define cities that the question of what what these things should be created and the reflection of how active or inactive this group has been. Right. People might suggest what well hey, no one cares about networking. But the fact of the matter is, there's a suggestion that there's an observability see as like an example of when to be created. It's like, well look, anymore in cloud native land in this distributed systems environment, observability, half of that is about the network. The other half is, you know, in app APM. I think there's so many things that we could be discussing within here and observability being, you know, or a portion of observability certainly being one of security is another set of the whole as a genre of topics that might be a backlog item. So, you know, the, you know, so tag era and Calico and some of the things they wrap around it. You know how they hooked in with to raise security policy and I don't know that they've ever spoken to that in depth, or some of the other projects apparatus. Some of the other scenes yet sober members that they're good ones to also go to and have them have them point to some of the things that they're doing. I mentioned them because they're apparatus security center as well. Right. No, definitely. And I, I, I thought about adding some of the, I don't know if I put no security. I thought about putting no security at that. You know, these days are so tied together. It's hard to kind of, you know, separate them out and they've been looking like he said, you know, with those ability point they've been thinking about the same thing with the security or the safe work group right and I think there's, there's some overlap things that we should be kind of careful not to move into because it's, you want to have too many work groups trying to address the problem from different angles right you're kind of sort of identify where it belongs and stick it in the right place. I kind of move this cloud native just so you know before we continue, you know, brainstorm and move this cloud in the landscape over to our current current spread because I think if we define that that landscape and those those categories up front that will help with sort of where we put these other items and what we do with them so That makes a lot of sense. I like how you qualified security is network security to your point about, say, another, you know, network accessibility. I don't think you were able to make the meeting. We talked with, you know, I forgot his name, the guy from Cisco that's doing the network service mesh stuff. Ed, yeah, Ed wonky. So we talked with Ed. And, you know, they're, they're kind of going down I guess the, I forgot which standards by them they're trying to go down like a standards body approach with that and so they didn't seem interested in like, you know, putting that into the cloud native landscape and it's so specialized for like so survivors I don't really know if it would be a good fit. And since we're more focusing on cloud native users I believe then network providers right so we kind of left that off but we can definitely open that back up to discussion as well as as the year goes on and get updates at least from them on nothing else right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah updates would be nice because it may be the case that there are some facets of what they're doing that are, yeah, the service provider land is, yeah, I mean I as you know, I'm telling you things you know but yeah, significantly different can be from enterprise land. You know, much of the, much of the focus of the CNC app has been enterprise end user. Right. It is, and this is one of those things that they. Yeah, so they've got network service mesh.io as their landing page to discuss it. I actually thought that that program was somewhat represented in a different Linux foundation group like the FDIO. I thought that they were, or the open networking front was the open IF. I thought they were already sort of friendly with the different Linux foundation. Yeah, I think they are too. I remember from like, were you at KubeCon? No, yeah, you were there. We just couldn't catch up with each other. They had their own little like work stream across the street in that building right where they were doing sort of a bunch of sessions on network service mesh and the ONIF aspects right so. Yeah, Ed is actually here in Austin. He keeps asking to go to, and I keep wanting to but not making it. There's some axe throwing, axe throwing that happens here in Austin. Yeah, I would not want to be at throwing an axe at it, I don't think. I'm excited talking about. Yeah, he uses his hands quite a bit when he talks so. I figured, I'll do this. Anita, if you're on the call and you're able to, you know, we're just kind of brainstorming mode here so if you've got comments or thoughts about some of the topics that are being suggested. Anita, I don't know if you can hear. Yeah, you can. Yeah, I can hear you. Hi. I'm actually, I work for a company called RXM, we're a training and consulting firm and I'm a little bit more of an operationalist person. But we didn't notice that, you know, we were trying to be really active and participate in a lot of the groups, which is why I'm sitting on here. Some of the more technical guys are doing a little bit working, but I was just hoping to get like the others to know. Get word back to them. Yeah. But I would be happy to see if they had any feedback that I could send along for guys this way as well. Actually, yeah, I don't know if this resonates with you or not, but I think in part what Ken was describing previously in and around the white paper or one or more white papers was a bit of best practices and guidance toward operations and cloud-native networks or networks running cloud-native workflows. Maybe some of your guys' expertise or questions might be well placed within that. Yeah, definitely. Another thing I thought about when you were saying that Anita is that the, you know, we have a couple of like Kubernetes certifications that the Linux Foundation has been doing and I'm sure, you know, Cisco has already added to the, you know, CCE and P and CTI, some cloud things, right? Kind of, you know, I've been thinking longer term, you know, with this workgroup, what sort of changes we want to add to the training areas for kind of what the network, because I know here at MasterCard we have a lot of really strong networking admins, right? You know, we move towards cloud-native that the skillset needs have greatly changed, right? And so, you know, kind of identify what those changes are, something that might be interesting for this workgroup to say, you know, whether it's in the white paper, if it's in, you know, something more formal like the certification work that the Linux Foundation is doing around Kubernetes, I think having some information about networking in this new cloud-native world makes a lot of sense. And then, Anita, maybe if you could, you know, say it again or the organization that you're with, you've said it. Oh, I'm sorry, RXM? Oh, okay. Oh, right. Okay. Yeah, we're a silver level member. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I guess Anita, since I forced you to come off mute, maybe just a couple more minutes, a couple more questions that, of the workloads that you guys are running, or of your network-oriented teams, are there particular unaddressed challenges or, you know, open areas of major concerns that are, you know, whether it's security-related or, you know, observable monitoring-related that plague you guys? Are you treating the network as, you know, infrastructure as code, or what was it? What about for you guys? I guess I realize, as you see that term, I'm sitting in a technical group that I should have thought about. I'm more of like an operational, like, an administrative operational. I'm not sure, yeah. I have, like, a vague awareness of the space, but I'm not sure that I could speak in a way that's super informative about the kind of troubles that the more technical people are going through. But I would be glad if you guys, I'm not sure if I had your guys' emails, but I'd be glad to gather some of that feedback and pass it along. Yeah, very good. Yeah. And it was unfair, but it totally puts you on the spot on that. It's just Ken and I, so we're okay. But there's my email address there. I'm generally interested toward trying to help Ken outline what it is that he thinks that we should be focused on. Yeah, I just, whether it's a description of, like, the environment you guys are within and stuff that's causing you pain or things that you think that you've mastered or maybe you guys had best practices you've come up with already. I popped over a link to a free tool that my group at SolarWinds have created, and as something that might be beneficial to you or might not, feedback in a way would be interesting. Ken, there's another thought. I think to the extent that it's just the three of us, I'll pop over a link as well to speak, that will explain a little bit more about the project that I'd messaged and Nina, you know, the earlier one that we were talking about? Yeah, I put about mastery. Okay. I'm not sure where I heard about that, but I heard about that. Yeah. It's not in a, it's in a premature state. I think we are the, I forgot to pop over a link just as we were talking about kind of, you know, free tools and that's the intention behind it is to help educate people and also help answer like the most popular question. The question that I for sure get, and I've gotten, I've given like five service mesh workshops on this year, you know, KubeCon, the Dockercons, the velocities, every time somebody raises their hand and it's like, hey, so that's really neat and the service mesh provides a lot of value. What, what's the cost? Like you don't get it, you don't get all this for free. What's the overhead of running something on the mesh? And Envoy, and it's kind of, I think the question is asked at two layers, the control plane and at the data plane. I think most people are thinking about the data plane and having to process all those packets. And Envoy being the most prominent proxy there that's processing all these packets. And Envoy project itself, their documentation says we don't publish performance statistics because it's a subject or it can be a hard thing to, because it's, you've got to couch it within this environment at this time, running on this hardware, using this application. But it's still just an open, people have the question and, and so I was considering, you know, working toward the metric to help provide something of a tool that the industry can go to, to do, to run across different measures and help them, you know, more than just producing reports, maybe help them load test their particular deployment or benchmark when they've done a deployment, if it's, if it's okay, if it's good, if it's matching with others, maybe, you know, get some potentially people want to send in their reports to then have an anonymized, you know, collective information that says, you know, here's, here's the average speed by which, you know, the average overhead of the different deployments and things like this, kind of the thoughts behind that but I guess then you can going back to the cognitive network landscape that that makes perfect sense to me is like the starting point for trying to define the categories. I thought about throwing like the white paper over there, but I think we'll start with just the landscape to kind of define the categories and then it would make sense where we want to do a white paper at right. Right. So going to have that drive the next steps for it seems like the right first step. So I would document this up. I'll try to create like a blank template for that with some thoughts in it and then send that out today or tomorrow to the work group email list. Oh, nice. Okay. Hopefully you're on that list if you're not, you know, you. Hopefully you'll be able to join, join that list then, or some of your companies on that list from the team and then we can definitely would be looking for feedback over the next couple of weeks before we meet again in two weeks. I think we meet every two weeks. I'm not sure I'm on the list, but I'll double check. Yeah, I'll double check with Taylor. Sure. If not, you can just have you guys send us thoughts on on a landscape categories that would make sense from their standpoint, you know, Definitely. And I can't I'm pretty sure you know this already but the land, yeah, the current landscape is, you know, the interactive one is now, you know, it's open source project and one can be forked and right. Yep. Yeah, definitely come tonight plan on doing if once we get some traction behind this. I don't know why I keep changing that default but it doesn't ever change. All right. Thanks for joining today so I try to want more of us. Thanks for joining but I guess that's not this in email today and then announced the next meeting and then I mean mind everyone a few days before then we'll try to take this to maybe get hub. We kind of document and discuss your network landscape and do it kind of in the public domain that way it has, you know, more visibility on it from the overall CNCF community. Yeah, I mean we've made garnered some additional interest. 29 is our next one then. Correct. Okay. If that's too soon and we definitely can, you know, post, you know, kind of postpone that meeting to have a presentation from the community and then come back to this, you know, in a month. So there's no huge rush on my side. Okay. I'm glad for the pressure. I want the project. I mean, in order to get anything done and then a large enterprise you have to kind of put dates out there that pressure to get done otherwise it just keeps getting pushed off. Yeah. The urgent always takes over the strategic. Let's plan to be tactical. Let's strategize. All right, cool. You guys have a great rest of your days. Take care. All right.