 Shall I start? Just give me a minute, I'll introduce you, just letting the people in. How do you know how many people there are? I can see the bottom of my screen, the participant numbers are flowing up. I don't know if it flashes up on your screen as well. Yeah, I can see them. You want me to meet myself for now? No, you're part of it. Yeah, but for now, when you're not speaking, you meet us. If everybody mutes themselves while they're not speaking, that'd be great. Okay. Thank you. Well, okay. I think we're ready to go. Hello and good evening to everyone. My name is Amina Yakin and I'm the director of the SOAS Festival of Ideas. This is day five and we are at 5pm live with our book talk. It's very exciting. We've been talking, we started on Monday with decolonizing knowledge. We started with speaking to Professor Adam Habib who is at WITS and the director there. And he's our incoming director at SOAS from this January. And we were talking about the flows of knowledge from the Global South set in South Africa and about how funding is located in the higher education sector and what that, in what ways does it contribute to the colonizing or decolonizing of knowledge. Now, decolonizing of knowledge has lots of variations across the board, whether we talk about it in terms of the history of where we are, the history of the colonized peoples, or we talk about it in terms of structures. What are the structures that we currently live with? So I'm, it's a great pleasure for me right now to welcome our two speakers for this session. Professor Yasmin Alipay Brown who actually needs no introduction, but I will still give her an introduction and Naila Levy to the program. And they will both be in conversation about Yasmin's new book, Ladies Who Punch. Before that, I'll just give them a brief introduction. Yasmin Alipay Brown was exiled from her birthplace Uganda in 1972. She's a journalist, broadcaster, author and columnist on the iNews paper and Sunday Times magazine. She has written for The Guardian, Observer, Sunday Times, Mail on Sunday, Daily Mail, New York Times, Time Magazine and other publications. She has won several awards including the Orwell Prize for Political Writing and in 2017 National Press Awards, Colonist of the Year Prize. And she is being commended for this prize again in 2018. Amongst her many accolades is the role of a part-time professor of journalism at Middlesex University and governor of the Royal Shakespeare Company. For 10 years she was co-chair of Major Imperial College Health Trust research project headed by Lord Aradharzai on patient safety. She's a national and international public speaker, a consultant on diversity and inclusion and trustee of various arts organizations. She's co-founder of the charity British Muslims for Secular Democracy. Her recent books include Refusing the Veil, Exotic England about England's infatuation with the East and I've had the pleasure of being in conversation with Yasmin about some of her work. And she is currently directing a programme of research into the well-being of troubled young Muslims and has published an excellent report that I highly recommend you to read. She has twice been, just in case you think she doesn't have influence, she has twice been voted the 10th most influential Asian in Britain. So Yasmin, we are very proud of you. Her new polemic, her latest book was Defence of Political Correctness. And her book Ladies Who Punches Just Hot off the Press this September, I can wave it around. She has eight honorary degrees and she sits on the boards of arts organizations. She's also a keen cook and theatre buff. And Yasmin, as soon as this period is over, I'm still waiting for my dinner invitation and this home cooked meal that is yet to transpire amongst over our various conversations that have taken place. I mean, I'm a huge admirer of Yasmin's work. Her contributions have influenced me as well over the time and interactions during the Muslims Trust and Cultural Dialogue project, having worked with her on a report that came out on Prevent with Peter and that's really been very, very important insight into how Yasmin works and the kind of community drive that her work is informed by, which is so necessary and so important in terms of where we are in public life in the UK and in the world globally. And in conversation with her is Nyla Levi, who is a playwright and actor. She's mixed race Pakistani and Canadian with Muslim and Jewish heritage and born and bred in London. Nyla has always gravitated towards stories that explore experiences related to identity, culture and race. Nyla began in verbatim with her first play Different is Dangerous, Amnesty International Freedom of Expression Longlist Nominee, followed by Normal with a Bit of Oomph and most recently Does My Bomb Look Big in This, co-produced by Tamasha, which toured the UK including Soho Theatre and Schools. Nyla is part of Soho Theatre, Soho Six, where she's developing her next play. She's currently writing episodes for two popular TV shows whilst developing her original ideas for screen two. So a warm welcome to Yasmin and Nyla. It's a pleasure to have you on this particular evening. And also Nyla is one of the ladies who punch in Yasmin's book. And I know Yasmin is going to say a lot about her book. So I'm just going to get my few words in while I can and before she starts. I mean, it's a fantastic title, Ladies Who Punch. And I was going to ask you why, well, this is a question that I'll come back to about why ladies and why not women. And I think you will answer it in your kind of presentation. But what I really liked about the introduction to the book is that you say the diverse characters in the book are accidental trailblazers. And that is a really important insight into the inspirational role models that are included in this book. And I think also one of the things we've been talking about in the Decolonizing Knowledge series of talks is about this not just only being about the history of the global south that we're engaging with, but also the history of where we live and where we are right now. How do we rethink that and why do we need to rethink that in terms of reclaiming knowledge for ourselves? And I think especially with regards to the stories of women, I just want to pick up some facts from your book, which are quite shocking. The UK has fallen from 15th to 21st down the global rankings for gender equality. You note that in the book and also you note the landmark equal pay case that the BBC journalist Samira Ahmed won with regards to being underpaid by £700,000 for hosting the audience feedback show News Watch compared with Jeremy Vine's salary for points of view. The UK footsies 350 firms you say offer pitiful and patronizing reasons why their boardrooms are dominated by men and the excuses are really quite shocking. Most women don't want the hassle or pressure of sitting on a board. I love that. So I think the institutional sexism that you talk about and the opportunities that deny women their space in society and where they go is something that's very passionately argued in this book and I can't wait to hear more. So I'm going to hand over to you Yasmin, welcome. We can't hear you. Can you unmute? Just to refer back to the decolonization unending if you like struggle. It's very interesting that of course we could very soon be breaking the law if we talk about this because a minister actually of African background a Tory minister of African background has spoken of the last few days. Sorry, can you hear me? Yes, we can. You're absolutely fine. It's suggesting that any talk of decolonizing knowledge or telling untold stories or challenging the common narratives could be illegal. So watch the space. And the other thing that I think for me decolonization of anything is for everybody. So James Baldwin wrote in the fire next time to his letter to his nephew James saying white people are locked in a history they barely understand. And whatever we do, we must help them unlock that history because nobody's helped by having a false story about their history and their nation. So I think this is a collective thing. We all need it and we all need to tell the truth as well about, you know, people from the south and people from the east. We're not angels. We have our own bad histories. The story of slavery. As the recent program she said. It's a world shame. It's a world shame. A lot of Asians in East Africa in the coastal region were agents of slave traders. You know, we need to be talking in a much more holistic way about all this. And that kind of leads to the book. I really was beginning to think that the identity politics is in part a very important step in self understanding and the understanding of the nation, but it can and often does become a cul-de-sac. The story of women in Britain and I restricted the stories to British women or women who came to Britain. If we look at the range of women who did what they did, because it was inside them, some of them weren't even very nice. I don't like a lot of these women. But what they did, what they felt they had to do was to say, they're not going to stay in the space that is allocated to them, the roles that are given to them. And this is a collective history. And if you look at the books on feminism, you have books on white feminism, you have books on black feminism. And I wanted to bring together a range of women, class, race, background, region, to say the changes we are enjoying came because women of all backgrounds did what they did. And that's very important to me because I'm from the tradition of, you know, when we have rock against racism, when we have the anti-Nazis, when we have the anti-racist alliance. And so in a way, the political edge of this book is saying, this is a collective venture. Women around the world often suffer the same awful oppressions, even in middle classes in the West. It helps us to be stronger if we are together. It helps men, you know, carry on the way they are doing, if we box ourselves off. And I feel that very passionately. Some of you may disagree with me. So we're choosing the 50 women. I had that in mind, that it had to be seen in the cover. There are three fists. And one is white, one is black, one is white, one is brown. And the reason for calling it ladies and punch is I wanted these very punchy ladies. But also, you know, that expression they use, ladies who lunch, these useless rich women who go around eating lettuce and drinking champagne. And I thought, I always thought that was a very cruel slur. And I wanted to use that, change it into ladies who punch. So because it comes from ladies who lunch, I didn't want it to be women. One of the biggest questions was how and who do you choose. I decided it had to have three parts. The first part was remember them. Women who are no longer with us. Women who have completely being part of the feminist or women's equality story. We must always remember them. And there are hundreds more of these women. The middle part was he to them. The women who are here and now from doing a whole range of things, a whole range of things. Not all of them are militant, not all of them are feminists, not all of them, you know, kind of have entered battle. But they are absolutely refusing to stay in their boxes. And the third part where lovely Naila is, is mark them the coming generation. I have so much hope for the coming generation. Me too, I thought, well, what young women are able to do. You know, Weinstein, everybody knew in Hollywood what he was like. Meryl Streep knew every Hollywood actress. All of them knew what he was like. But for all sorts of reasons, which I understand, you know, that you want your career, you don't want to be thrown off. They said nothing and it carried on. It took young women who had most to lose. Who said enough is enough. He's not going to get away with it anymore. And therefore I wanted a third section called mark them. Because these women are so brave, so savvy. So we've got Laura, I've got Laura Bates in there who set up the everyday sexism project and my heroine in the book is Renier de Lodge. The young black woman who wrote a while, it's a bit difficult title to remember why I'm not talking to white people about race anymore, still in the best sellers list. It's the first book by a black writer to be in the best sellers list as it is. She's so young. She's so confident. And she just will not surrender to some of the some of the stuff many of us feel we have to, you know, I can never say no to appear on television. And then I always come often come back and say why did I do that, right, because it becomes a confrontation. And she is still. And she says no. And I learned. I'm really old now. I learned so much from the younger women. And it's a joyous book. It's a really joyous book. You read about Mirosile, you read about Shazia Mirza, I completely love. And it's also saying, you know, hey guys. We laugh. We wear beautiful clothes. We love men. Good men who love us back. But you will not determine who we can be anymore. And some of the historical characters that have included, again, largely forgotten. I couldn't say the name now. Sorabji, Cornelia Sorabji, the first woman ever in the Victorian age to push and push the system and get to study law at Oxford. She fought those men who wouldn't let her take her exams. She fought those men for then two decades before they accepted her as a barrister, before the bar accepted her. Who knew this? Who knows this story? Equally there is Elizabeth Garrett Anderson was the first ever woman doctor. It's a very joyous and energizing book. And it's written in a way where, you know, my auntie could understand it because that's what we need also for books to speak to all kinds of people. But I wanted to bring Nila in here, who's the youngest person in the book. And the reason I, and I'll let her talk about it. The reason I was captivated by her is I saw this play she wrote. That's my bombing look begin this. And it was, and as you heard in the earlier introduction, I love theatre. And I was so blown away by this play, Nila plays one of the Bethany Green girls who went to join ISIS. But she's a Londoner and she plays it in that way, in that fast speaking way. And it's poignant, it's incredibly important because it gives you an idea of what lies behind so much of this whole business radicalization. And that's what led to this other work I've done with young, about young Muslims. So Nila, I want to hand over to you. And if you can talk about yourself, like you did to me, and what you're doing. Yeah, I guess. Well, I'm now a writer, as Amina had introduced me as earlier, but I kind of never ever ever saw myself becoming a writer. I always wanted to be an actress when I was younger. So I actually only started writing kind of to get myself on stage, actually. And that kind of happened at university. But I think which we've been talking about decolonization before and when I'd first kind of been asked, why don't we talk about that at the beginning of this. I immediately just sort of like me decolonizing my own mind. And I think that that has actually been that kind of started when I was at university and started writing. Because the first play that I did write with my friend at uni was different is dangerous, which was a verbatim play where we interviewed members of the Asian community up in Leeds. And that kind of forced me to reflect on my own culture. I mixed race, my dad's white Canadian Jewish, and my mom is what British Asian Muslim. And it always felt very defensive. And, you know, I kind of wanted to hide my Asian side, the whole, you know, my entire life really up until university when I was kind of forced to confront it and be like, Fuck, that's, wow, okay, this is this is what I'm ignoring this side of me. And, you know, so I think just coming back to the decolonization, I think, for me, it's about decolonizing my own mind, which is definitely like an ongoing process. Yeah, I think through theater and playing roles of Asian, you know, Asian girls. And then writing these roles, it's actually helped me really connect with that side of my identity, which I felt so strongly against and wanted to suppress all of my life growing up. So yeah, so I mean, I've at the beginning of my career kind of in 2012. I was just acting in anything that I could act in. Me and my friend had written that play different is dangerous. And we'd applied to a commarsha, which is at the theater company, a commarsha scratch night. We formed a 12 minute little short excerpt of it. And then that kind of just picked up some momentum and then we ended up proud funding and taking ourselves to Edinburgh. All very kind of like rehearsing in my kitchen off the work. Oh my God, yeah, we had like a five day run up at Edinburgh fridge. And on the first day it was it was press night. My friend, Fadia, Fadia Coromyn, we were like, oh my God, press night amazing. So cool. And then we went to do a performance and nobody was there. And then poor tech guy, we were at the top of this and we were in a hotel on the Royal Mile top in the tiny room and the tech guy was like, you have to invite press, you know, and we were like, So he got a private private show that evening. But yeah, a lot of a lot of learning on the job is kind of how I've ended up getting to where I'm at, because we've self produced that show. Yeah. Yeah, I think a lot of failure has kind of taught me a lot of stuff, I guess. Yeah, I remember I was in Luton Hat Factory once and Fahim Qureshi who'd come to see the show up at the fridge really liked it. And so we were talking about potential tour for the play. And then I suddenly realized I had to pitch the play to another person in the room. And I was like, okay, so now I'm apparently pitching. So it's a lot of kind of being thrown in at the deep end and then somehow getting to the surface. Yeah, so I think that's what has been my journey really. And then and then I did write does my bomb look big and it had been in development since 2016 and that was that was actually really kind of me just fed up of playing terrorists girlfriends and having the shittest dialogue in the entire thing. You know, I'm like, and I have always been interested in the story of the girls from Bethany Green and you know how what could happen, how could what influence them to make that journey. So I kind of started just writing stuff that you know I feel is like a British Asian, I mixed race Asian but you know I feel more Asian than I do white. I don't feel white because I've never really had benefits from being white. So I feel Asian. So yeah I use my own experience to kind of write up some dialogue some random scenes. I didn't know where it was going. And then after a couple of years of trying to get in touch with Tessie McPungie, who represented the girls families. He finally agreed to meet with me after he read my play title. He was like, Okay, that's interesting enough I'll give you one interview. And then and then it was really interesting because I kind of had these characters and asked him if he thought that they sounded true to you know the people that he met. And he was like, Yeah, that actually sounds really, you know, you've got quite a few of them kind of bang on actually. I just tried to get you know pieced together what had actually happened to them in their life to make them vulnerable young people. And so those trigger points in their life, then became part of this. It's a fictional story. It's not actually the story of Shaman Begum. So it was this kind of fictional exploration of what happens and the grooming process and then at the heart of it are these two best friends, you know, Yasmin who is the girl who joins ISIS. She's not actually she's not practicing Muslim or anything. And then it's her poor friend, Aisha who gets left behind who is actually, you know, she's Muslim. She has to deal with all of the shit, you know, so I kind of wanted to show what every Muslim in this country has to deal with when something like that happens, whilst also having these brilliant funny intelligent young Asian girls from London at the heart of it, just showing them as like real people, you know, I think, as an actor, I find a lot of the time Asian people's dialogue is very formal. And it's like, we don't talk like that, you know, it's like, let's bring out the laws, let's bring out these really fully rounded characters, let's bring out fun characters for other actors to play as well. And for women to play and, yeah, just have fun with it, I think. So yeah, so that was kind of how I wrote form. And now I'm like doing some TV stuff, which is amazing off the back of it, which I never ever would have imagined that I would be doing. But somehow I managed to get in these rooms. So, yeah, that's me. I'm just so thrilled. You're in the very last chapter of the book with, you know, when your mom's an amazing actress, we mustn't forget her. So we've mentioned her in that chapter. Yeah, the game she's she's such a subtle and lovely actress. I can't say actor. I was going to say actress. Because it too doesn't she it says in the book that she says actress too. Yeah. But, you know, and I say that, you know, in the early 60s, I think there was a movement of angry young men working class people who stormed the stage. British stage because all kind of gentlemen from Oxford and Cambridge acting directing it was their work. And these raw amazing plays were written and, you know, change the face of theater. I say at the end of this, your chapter and the book, you are like those angry young men who stormed the British theater, you're doing your storming in a different way. And, and the future is remarkable, I think. So, well done you. You can have go back to Amina now. Amina, what would you like us to do now? So I can ask some questions as well. I just need my team to start my video again. Okay, yeah, great. Yeah, I was just going back. That that's fascinating to hear that story in terms of how productivity and creativity and a response to stereotyping is is kind of leading to further new work. And also, sadly, also to still having to contribute to the industry around radicalization that that's still quite, you know, often the case that when one gets asked to talk about Muslim representation that is often the first kind of port of call. And, which is not to say that it doesn't exist and it's not a problem but how does one talk about a problem and just means very good at talking about that problem and neither so you just mean I was I just wanted to pick up a fun fact from your book from your introduction. And I wanted you to expand on this a little bit because when when that sort of process that that you have as a writer of what gets you started what are the inspirations. What are the kind of blocks that come your way and what sort of pushes you to, you know, why is this book called ladies who punch and why isn't it called men who punch or I mean I know it wouldn't be. But one of the one of the points you make in your introduction is you say Sunil and old uni acquaintance sent a teasing email when I told him the title. So it's about women who hit their husbands. So I just I just wondered. I mean you and I mean that's a lighthearted comment but I know that on your, your active presence on social media you're an activist as much as you are a writer and a journalist, and you face a lot of trolling. And I wondered if you could could talk to us about that in relation to ladies who punch, you know, because trolling is is a very common practice and has actually come out you mentioned the Me Too movement as well. And and Harvey Weinstein and that sort of trolling has become very much a part and parcel of a backlash against women who do punch or. And I'm not just a woman. Well, I'm a woman and I'm a woman of color and I'm a migrant and I'm a Muslim and I'm Maori. And so the trolling has actually reached a point where I am finding it quite unbearable. Quite unbearable. I don't look at most of it. Because otherwise I couldn't do anything. But of course other people do. And so they tell you. It's become, I mean, plus donishingly crude and cruel and disabling. And what, you know, they're not going to, I mean, one of the things they want, I think, is to drive you away to silence you to disappear you. And I'm not going to do that. And to bullheaded to let these cretins and vile racists and misogynists and misanthroats silence me. But if I'm honest, it really is affecting me. I mean, the way it kind of works its way through is how exhausted I've been at the moment. I'm constantly tense, because I know this is happening out there. And, you know, I could say I could and I'll test it. After we finish, I'll just tweet and say, there's a lovely sunset. And you just read what they say. I'll tell you what they'll say. Why are you still here? Why don't you f off where you came from? You said you would leave when Boris Johnson was elected. Why are you here? We don't want people like you here. How dare you. I just have to say I like the sunset. And that could set them off. So, and I'm finding it hard. The bastards aren't going to stop me. But I've been through too much in my life to let these sort of powers get me down. But it is getting me down. Do you see what I mean? Yeah, of course. No, and I'm sorry that I kind of brought it into the conversation. But I wanted to get to the heart of the women who inspired you in this book. When you're in moments of darkness and you really struggle to find the light and to find, you know, something that will make you go on and you know where we are glad that you go on because of course that's very important. Who are the women in your book? You know, they're people, the book is divided into three sections. If I remember correctly, correct me if I'm wrong. You've got Mary Seacole. You've got Cornelia Surabji who you spoke about. You've got Sophia Duleep Singh and amongst them you've also got Mary Lee Berners-Lee. You've got Margaret Thatcher. You've got Princess Diana. Could you tell us a little bit about this mix? And also while I've asked you this question to say to the audience, please keep putting your questions in the Q&A feature at the bottom. And we'll pick them up shortly. I think the women who most inspired me when I was writing the book were the youngest women in the book. Because, you know, when I look at Karim Prade of Perez and as I said, René had a large or Laura Bates or Naila Levy, I get such a sense that they are, it's the way they grew up and the country they grew up in which is very different from the country we've now ended up in. We're in a bad bit of a cycle at the moment. And when I think of how I was at their age, I just never had their inner strength, their determination, their skills, you know, that are based on a kind of self-hood that I find really inspirational, really inspirational. Of course there are heroines from the past and the present, Elena Kennedy, Harriet Wistricht, you know, these two lawyers in between them have really promoted women's rights. But it's the younger women I took most sucker from. I just think I'll be dead not many years from now. But it's in good hands. It's in good hands. And they will make, they will do much more than we were able to do. In the past, in the past women, I included some women who were only recently passed away as well as more historical figures. And one of the women I most loved who sadly passed away. Well, I loved Deborah Orr, my fellow journalist. I thought she was one of the best writers and she didn't give a damn. But at the end of her life, personal pain destroyed her and illness. But boy, she was somebody. But it was Elise Dodson, who was one of the artistic directors at the Royal Court Theatre. We hardly know her in this country. But she took theatre to every part of the world. And established a new tradition. India never had much of a theatrical tradition for the industry. Elise went with the Royal Court and they established and the play writing that has developed in the last 10 years in India, in Chile, in Uganda. And one extraordinary New York Jewish woman was a force of nature. And so there are lots of women who should be known who I wanted to highlight because they are so remarkable. And then people like Margaret Thatcher, why did I have her in there? Good question. I losed her everything she was. But nobody can take away from her. She was the first leader, country leader, not only in Britain, but in Europe, which you cannot deny her that. So sometimes there were some quite strange choices I made because I didn't want it to be just about my best friends. Like I said, some of the women I don't like. It's interesting to hear that and to understand that. And yeah, I think this government actually make Margaret Thatcher look quite good. So we live in interesting times, right? I was just wondering, Yasmin, I mean, I know your story. I've watched the play. I've kind of the one woman show that you did many years ago. And, you know, I've had the kind of privilege of having lots of conversations. But I was just wondering for the sake of our audience, if you could share that story, which is such an important story from about where, just as Naila did with regards to where you, who you were and who you've become. And what was that journey so that people get. Essentially, we were thrown out of Uganda in 1972, Asians who have been there for two or three generations, mass expulsion. And it was a very wounding, soul destroying history. And it was very difficult in some ways for us to remake our lives. But I've always felt that we only told half tone story. We really didn't address some of the more problematic things that were happening while we were there. And so the one woman show, for example, was about three things. One was was called extravagant stranger, which comes from a fellow. How the migrant is regarded, you try your hardest to belong, and yet nothing you do will ever be enough. And yet there's all this pressure on why aren't you becoming more British, who could be more British than I am, I even married one of them. You know, a lovely working class white man, but it's never enough. It's never like a fellow struggling to belong, and then realizing, you know, so that was part one part of the story. The other part was Asian racism against black people. It's not been addressed when we've never addressed it. And I recently wrote, I think black lives matter as really change beginning to change that younger generations are confronting their elders, because they don't think like them. But certainly in East Africa, where I was growing up and in India and South Asia, generally, dark skin was detested. People with dark skin, even if they were Indian, were demeaned. And it goes back to kind of caste colorism, and then the colonial system, which had these gradations, you know, white at the top around it. And that was the second story in that one show. And the third story was a very personal one about my relationship with my father, because I played Juliet that Nila, I don't know if she knows my dream was to be an actress. That's what I wanted it ended on this night that I'm about to describe. All the schools were separate, but after independence, black kids started to come to our school for the first time. And we started to mix. We never mixed. We never mixed with black people. They were our servants. And then suddenly there were our school friends, you know, which was amazing. And we had an English teacher who's still alive, who decided that she would stage Romeo and Juliet with the Capulets playing Asians playing Capulets. And Montague's played by Africans and I got the part of Juliet was a black woman. And I never told them at home, what I was doing. It was cool, you know, it's fine, it's cool. The play got into the press, because we won an award, and I actually got a scholarship to come study acting. When I came home with this envelope. My clan was sitting there, looking like somebody had died, I thought somebody died. Anyway, I had a terrible, they beat me up. They, it was a horrible, horrible evening of unbelievable rage. And but my father didn't hit me or anything, but he never spoke to me again till he died. And that is at the heart of my anti racism. It is what drove me to become who I became in some. Thank you. Thank you, Yasmin for sharing that I think that's a really important insight into who you are and and that that oppression is a very real oppression for a lot of people and not talking is quite substantially demeaning or distancing and sort of changes you in lots of ways. So there are there are some shout outs for you Yasmin that I'm going to read because we were talking about trolling before and and some from our wonderful team who is in the background. Danny and Stephanie and but this one is from Danny. And she says your examples of strength and perseverance is what keeps us going. And there's a message from Josephine in the audience who's a scientist and occasionally corresponds with you so she just says how much you she admires your tenacity and patience to seek solutions in the public eye and being on the front line of racial discrimination is tiring and you're a role model should be in your own book. So the play needs to convert into a book and and Danny's asking can we have a link to the article and and you know many, many more messages coming up about your support in support of your warrior spirit. So there's some questions. One question has come up from Pat and one question is from Suman. So I'll to bring Nila back into the conversation. Let me start with a question for Nila from Suman. Nila Suman asks Suman Butcher. I think needs no introduction they're doing but from Butcher Boulevard and their wonderful verbatim production is on tomorrow night. If you have time decolonizing not just a buzzword I would invite all of you to tune in at five o'clock. It's going to be wonderful. Suman asks the question. Does does Nila think Nila do you think your experience mirrors your mother's experience as an actor and if so what has changed over the decade in acting theater and performance. I think it's different because I think my mom, you know, both of her parents were Asian. So when she's playing those roles, she actually fully understands them whereas the roles that I was playing I didn't really have any connection to at all until I played them. So I was in So the Butcher's Child of the Divide and that was about a young boy who gets split up from his family during partition. And I didn't even me and the rest of the cast didn't even know much about partition until we did the play and had to do the research for it. And for me, I feel like, you know, I think it's totally different. It's like I'm learning I've learned about my culture through being a performer and through doing a lot of those Asian roles. So I think, yeah, I'm not entirely sure how it was. I mean, my mom was doing the same kind of roles, I guess back in her day. But I think it is different because for me and I know from my sister as well who's mixed race, it's hard because we play these Asian roles but with being mixed race, not being brought up with the language because the midwife told my mom not to speak to us in Urdu because it would be confusing. You know, I think there's a disconnect between the characters that we play, but then being put in those boxes, but then also not being enough to fit that box. And I think that's kind of where my frustration is. And that's what's led for me to kind of write my own roles because I'm like, either I wouldn't be getting these roles or I'm not enough to be these roles or my, you know, yeah. So that answer that question. I hope so. And, and Simon is also giving a shout out to Nyla's sister Sophie Han Levy who's in the show tomorrow. So another, so you have to watch Nyla. I will. Definitely. And I think just to pick up on that point about language, I think that's really interesting to hear and it's something I've grappled with as being a mom, being a mother myself to my daughters and being in a mixed race relationship. And the fact that my husband doesn't speak Urdu, but I do. And no, no midwife said to me do not speak to your children in in Urdu. And of course, all the kind of learning has changed around that. And we're encouraged to be bilingual and multilingual etc. But despite that it's not easy. It's not easy, even in a multicultural city like London to practice that and it could partially be the fault of being a bilingual speaker, you know that you just slip into the language that you're comfortable with. But that that's the key point, the language you're comfortable with and the environment that makes you comfortable in that language. So a lot of the East European mums are always talking to their children in their own language because English is is not that, you know, it's not that colonial heritage of being easily able to slip into the other language. And so I find that, you know, a kind of thing that I live with as a parent and as a mum and I did speak to them in in Urdu when they were younger but I was very self conscious in in public spaces and about this kind of knowledge this you know this being needing like you said needing to decolonize yourself in the process of being part of that journey. And in fact, you know, I would say that what you were also saying about not connecting with your Asian self is something that I worry about and see a little bit in my children as well and I want, you know, it then makes you think about the structures you know what are the structures and and what you're saying with regards to to not connecting with the story of partition and and and it's really important that the work of sort of companies like butcher Boulevard like Tamasha and all all the wonderful people, the television programs we've had the historians obviously working in the background in terms of changing and transforming that narrative but then as Yasmin reminded with with a minister who comes and says no, you know, you will not decolonize because this is not possible. So, so we live in in very, very challenging times. Yasmin there's a question for you from Pat. What would you advise someone who wants to get published about a multicultural fiction. And how does one find a mentor slash critical friend from Rabia. So Rabia, you are lucky to be wanting to do this now, because there's never been a better time at you so there are some things you can immediately look up, look up. There's a leads prize for multicultural writing or something. And although it's a prize. Also a very good source of advice for emerging minority ethnic writers and I'm sorry terms are so problematic I'm just going to use these terms knowing how problematic they are. And the other person who has been wonderful, actually, is a guy called Nikesh Shukla, I don't know if you've heard of him. And he edited a book, which was a bestseller again called The Good Immigrant. And he has set up several organizations to encourage fiction writers of Asian black mixed race and every background and offers some very serious help to them. So look those two things up Nikesh Shukla and the leads something prize for fiction, and you will be put on the right road. Okay, great. Thank you. I was going back to that question of identity I was wondering if you could talk talk to us a little bit Yasmeen about Andrea Levy who's also in your book of Ladies Who Punch, and I'll read the bit that that really, I think connects with some of the things that we've been we've been having and it's about identity she wrote, sometimes it makes my head hurt, sometimes my heart. So what am I, where do I fit into Britain. Could could you sort of share a little bit more with us. Identity conflicts can get us into such a cul-de-sac sometimes. So I'm often not, you know, who am I, what am I, me and talk about me now. I'm born in Africa of Indian origin of undivided India, but my mother was also born in Africa in Pakistan. I come from a Shia Muslim background. I feel an affinity to the subcontinent. I speak three of the languages, but I don't belong there. I went back to Uganda last year because my husband had never been. And the minute I got off the plane. I felt a part of me had come home, but it isn't my home anymore. It just can't be my home anymore, but the emotional reaction I had was like little girls, the scenery, my first paintings were of those, those banana trees, the goats, desert goats, you know, so there's the homeland of the imagination where I was born from which I was expelled. India and Pakistan sort of the identities that were embraced by East African Asians in a very odd way I have to say. So we watched all the movies and I love the movies and I love the songs, but we were so, we had such a split loyalty thing going on. So when India became independent and all the Gandhi and Nehru and all of that Asians in East Africa celebrated end of empire, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful. When the empire ended in East Africa, they went because actually we have been brought over and had become agents of the system. And most East African Asians were terrified of what black politicians would do to the country and to Asians and they were right to be terrified. Because of course, this was ethnic cleansing cleansing that happened. So we were sort of so split in so many different ways. So who am I. I have a kind of link to the subcontinent. A lot of the languages gives you values. My home language is a very esoteric language called touchy, which I used to speak with my mother every day since my mother passed away. That part of me is dying. In fact, I'm in the middle of writing a piece about it. Then I'm married. I was married to somebody from my own background. I have a son from that marriage. And then I he ran off with a blonde as they do. And then I married an Englishman. I have a mixed race daughter. So who am I just can't identify myself in terms of identity politics. I'm a Muslim, but hey, you know, I'm a very open minded Muslim. I come from a Shia community where actually we're kind of Muslim light in some ways. But at the same time, it's very conventional. For example, they hate what I do because they are very scared of the written word. And they think I'm too outspoken and that the only way for us to be is to be quiet and to make whoever is in power feel good. Okay, I can't do that. So identity politics and all of us, if we are really honest, we could not come up with one identity that defines us. And in that sense, Nila, you are like the rest of humanity. Everybody has so many bits. Then I'm a woman. Right. Black Asian African woman. So, and I'm really pleased nobody can put me in a box. I think. So I think connected you asked me to what you've been talking about there as is a question from Rubina, who says, do you think it's fair to use the word. I mean, connected but just taking it in a new direction. Do you think it's fair to use the word grooming for girls who are old enough to have angry political views on Western incursions into Iraq, etc. With complete impunity, the media frequently also uses the virgins in heaven to ridicule and dismiss the political anger that reactive young people feel. So I think it's a question for you and for Nila, because it connects with the play as well in the work that you've done. And Yasmin, perhaps this is also with regards, you know, brings in the work that you've done on on mental health. I think I'm going to give it more to nine us very quickly. I think it's a fair enough word word because it's age is not maturity, and many of our young people. And by our I am being inclusive of all Muslim families and communities in this country and elsewhere. We grew up in a very different way, most of us, you know, or we grew up in a very different way from Western women. And so we may be of a certain age I mean I was so innocent at the age of 18. I was more innocent than an 11 year old is today. I don't think it's age, and I do think it's, it's the right word to use. I think political anger is one thing. Political anger that is so violent is something that is destructive for everybody, including the person who's been drawn into it. Political anger express, you know, in terms of in every other way I would support, but when it kind of is into, you know, Taliban and ISIS and al Qaeda. It has to be a kind of brainwashing that needs them there. And I think we should not avoid that conclusion. It could be, I mean I sometimes somebody said to me, you're still angry at your age. Most people have become conservatives and are you know drinking wine. Why are you still so angry. And I'm really pleased I'm angry. But if that anger makes me want to destroy other people then it would be the wrong use of that. But Naila can come in on this. I mean, I think, well for the word grooming with regards to the play and the characters in my play. I do think that that's appropriate for the way that they were drawn in sucked into that world. Because, you know, when I was talking to Tasneem Akunji, I'd kind of referenced, you know, my childhood growing up, and he'd said that was just one version of a rebellion. And because of the certain circumstances and people that she encountered in her life, that's that path that she went down. So I think for that particular young person at that stage in her life who was extremely vulnerable. And who, yes, she did have these, you know, engagements in areas of politics. And, you know, I think that we can see it with the far right as well that, you know, they, there's something that is happening that is angering them. And yes, that is the political viewpoint. But then other things happen in order to push them to this certain place point in their lives. Definitely, through the research that I did with ISIS, they do have these people on these computers whose job is to go out and to groom people. And, you know, there was that Scottish woman who was able to relate to them and be, you know, I'm from England too, and I'm from Britain too, and I've been able to, I understand what you're going through. So it was a little connector and they manipulated them very much. So in terms of that, just that specific character that I wrote about, I would use the word grooming. Yeah. Thank you both for responding to that. I mean, while we're on the subject of politics, let me return to Yasmeen's book again. And Yasmeen, there are a couple of political women I want you to talk to us about in the book. There are many. We mentioned Margaret Thatcher already. But I wanted to turn to the MP and the minister who was with that portfolio. Rubach and Seida Wasi, who are both in Barna Seida Wasi, both of them are in your book. Can you tell us what was the inspiration and what do you see with regards to their, you know, what are the politics from the perspective of an MP, from the perspective of also those who are further down the chain to community politics, and then right up at the top where Barna Seida Wasi was and where once you express an opinion that doesn't sit well, you have to kind of step outside the frame. It was a really difficult, really difficult choice. Because how many wonderful MPs are there. And I could have chosen, you know, I feel so bad. I could have had Diane Abbott, I could have had so many amazing white women like Stella Priestley and a couple of women. I would have had, yes, Phillips, but she, because the election was suddenly thrown at us, and she couldn't do the interview, but the reason I think Rupa is so interesting is she's a middle class Bangladeshi woman. But she is absolutely grounded, absolutely rooted in the constituency, and it's where I live as well. And the, the, she has this amazing capacity, whoever she's talking to. She's one of them. And she genuinely is. So she's, she's also multi talented so she's a DJ. She's a stand up comic. And one of safer, one of the amazing things she did in this locality. We have a Murray Stokes clinic where abortions are performed. Legal abortions are performed. And for the last three or four years, anti abortionist, absolutely awful, awful extremist anti abortionist have been circling this place, and really making it hard for the women going in. Holding up pictures of bloody fetuses, shouting at them, screaming at them. And so she got the local council, after a long struggle to ban them from that area. And now this I think is going to be put in put to parliament, so that women who need an abortion will be protected. And I just thought, you know, we think this is only in Northern Ireland problem. But anti abortionist campaigns and campaigners have become very emboldened in the last two or four years in this country, they're funded by many of them are funded by American groups. So I really admire her because she, she thinks causes that nobody else seems to have noticed. And abortion is a fundamental human right for women. And it might, might be being snatched away in this, by this pressure. And also, I think was remarkable her first majority because it's a very Tory area. Ealing has got extremely wealthy people and extremely poor people. And for years it was story, I've lived in the same flat that I'm in since 1978. So it's, it's, you know, I've watched the story, but when she stood, nobody thought Labour had a chance. There are 300 majority. The following election, which was very, very soon, she built a majority of thousands, because there is this earthiness about her, which I love, and a way that she relates to everybody she's talking to. So there's a completely different reason she's in there. I've always said, why are you even in the Tory party? What are you doing there? You know, they hate people like you, they hate people like me, why are you there? But she says, I, if I go, that's what they want. They want me to go away so I don't nag them. I'm not there, you know, putting this into their arena, which they don't want to talk about what their racism against Muslim people in particular, but other forms of racism and exclusion. And I also loved her story, one of five daughters. The book has some amazing fathers in there. So many women, past and present, became what they became because they had these extraordinary fathers. And I wanted to acknowledge the men in the book as well. And her father absolutely encouraged her and her four sisters to go beyond what they thought was possible. And he's still doing it, she tells me. He's still doing it. And I also think that she's tackling an issue which is increasingly hard to talk about in this country, which is the light of the Palestinian people. And that takes some courage these days. And she holds on to it. So, and she gets punished for it. So I thought it was very important to honour her, because she is something somebody, you know, that's real bravery, I think. I think so, a lot of bravery and a lot of admiration for those women. And I can also, as you mentioned, Palestine, I should also flag. We have Susan Abul Hava at seven o'clock in conversation in our festival. So please do tune in to that as well. Let's go back to the questions from the audience and some comments. Yana has shared a quote that she thinks really fits with what Yasmin has said about her identity. And it's from The Good Immigrant by Shukla that you mentioned. And the quotation is by S. Godin. We have learned to belong in the unbelonging, spirited and colourful souls of all shades. Okay, so that was a comment. Going back to question from Pat. Did you have discrimination, and this is for Yasmin. Did you have discrimination with jobs in journalism? And perhaps Naila could extend to you with regards to any experiences you might have had of discrimination. So I became a journalist at the age of 37, and I'm completely untrained. So after the acting career was dashed, my next dream was to be a writer. But of course, when you come as an immigrant to a country where you don't know anybody, and it's a very nepotistic occupation, I lost confidence after being at Oxford. And so I became an educator. I worked in adult education, further education and so on. And at the age of 37 woke up one morning and said, you've got to do this because you die and you regret it. So I wrote a column and got up and I couldn't even type. And I wrote a column very slowly. And I knew one person at the Guardian, I called Aidan White, and I showed it to him. And he said, oh, this is quite good. Shall we send it and see what they say? So he sent it to the Guardian and they published it. And so it began. So I started doing bits and pieces. I started writing and pitching here, there and everywhere. And within six months I had a job at a wonderful magazine we used to have called New Society, which sadly died after many decades. And it was a mixture of academic, social work, literature, current affairs and so on. And I got a job there to edit a section of the magazine called Race and Society. So within six months of waking up that morning and actually sitting down and doing it, luck has a lot to do with these things, but also fashion because I knew I had to do this. There's been a huge amount of discrimination all the way and there still is. Some of it is quite naked, but it's that bullheadedness in me, I suppose. I carry on. I do carry on. So the longest I've ever been in a kind of safest job was when I was with the Independent Ministry for 18 years. I have to say, the people who've helped me most on this journey have almost all, except for two, been white men. So good white men are our best friends. Can be our best friends as much as in the other. Anyway, one of them gave me a column on the Independent. I was there for 18 years. And then one day I'm ceremoniously with a text. I was sacked. And, you know, almost none of the men male columnists were sacked. But a lot of other women, white women were sacked. And it was clear to us that choices had been made. And then after all that, I realized that I had such a pathetic contract with them. Whereas my white peers had a proper contract. They had holiday pay. They had all and only found that out within the last two years. So I won awards. I did all this that you always know that there are things happening in the structure, as you say. But I've also done what I wanted to do. And I've loved every minute of it. And every time I get up to write. I feel something that is un immeasurable. It is what I want to do. And the discrimination, you have to just put that aside and not let it diminish your sense of work, your ambition and your passion. They've tried, they've often tried to diminish me, including liberal journalists from the Guardian, but they can't. That's a powerful statement, Yasmin. And I think one of the questions I'd like to ask you with regards to discrimination and institutional structures. And I think the message to continue, despite, in spite of those who discriminate against you is a very important one. And one, a lot of people, including myself, will take from that and participate in that. But it also allows the system to perpetuate a practice that then becomes a normative structure. So how and what, you know, it's good that you're speaking out and you're saying those things at what point, you know, in one's career, you know, as people are asking, do you have the power to speak out? Because there will be many who will have gone through that same experience and there will be, most people will not speak out, will not be empowered to speak out. There's a question of the power of the law as well when it comes to racial discrimination. You know, to what extent does the law help us to change those structures? I mean, I know you're not a lawyer, but I don't know whether you've kind of encountered that journey in your own experiences. No, I've never, I've never used the law. And I think it's becoming increasingly harder to use the law. I so admire what Carrie Bracey, who's in my book and Samira Ahmed did. They used the law, but they worked, they had proper jobs, proper contracts with a proper employer. I've never had that luxury. I'm a kind of tram. I go from job to job to job. I, and I'm not proud. I'm really not proud because I love what I do so much. And maybe I should have been prouder and maybe I should have raised objections. But the thing that drives me is I want to wake up. After I was sacked, I almost had a breakdown. And then I thought, that's, you know, you've got to, because I missed the writing. Writing is like food and drink to me. So I approached the iNews paper and I said to them, please let me write. And here is what I said at my age with my background and my achievements. Here is what I said. I said, pay me whatever you like, but just let me write. Okay. It was, I'm not saying it's the right thing to do. That's what I did. And once later, I won columnist of the year in the National Press Awards. So the stock went up. And I'm writing for them. And I love writing for them. I can't say to anyone, do what I did, because sometimes I think I should have been much more assertive. I did leave. I did walk out of one job. Second proper job. So what new society I was incredibly happy new society merged with new statesman and the editor of new society who really trained me. He was wonderful. He left and I had another editor. There was an editor of both the magazines together. He was appalling. He was appalling man in every way. He was sexist. He was kind of terrible prejudices. And this was at the time of the satanic verses. And until then I'd never said to anybody I'm a Muslim. I went to satanic verses thing happened. And the liberal world was very shaken. And I understood that they were shaken. You know, I think a lot of mistakes were made by Muslims at the time by burning the book and so on. But anyway, we won't go there. But I remember the editor at conference saying, we're not going to cover the Muslim side of the story. And I said, what kind of a decision is that for a left wing magazine to make. Okay, I don't think it's right for what's been happening. But surely there was a wonderful guy called Shabir Akhtar was an intellectual and who had been writing some very interesting counter positions on freedom of expression and so on. And I thought, this is awful. I have an editor who's declared that he's not interested in what Muslims think. And he was also treating the women very badly. So I left that job. And, you know, this is just about a year after I've changed careers. I was a lone mother. It was a really tough thing to do. But other than that, I've never, never, never walked away. And, you know, that's just the way the decision I made that was, I wanted to write what I do do now, though, because I am respected. And I know I've kind of have a, I've done what I've done. That if people treat me badly now, I'll say, you don't do that to me. Okay, that's it. Yeah, good for you. And good to hear that that story about because every story is individual and every story is important in terms of how we deal with those challenges and generationally I'm really interested to hear what Nila might have to say on this as well. So Nila, would you? I think in terms of discrimination, I think, for my writing, I've been positively discriminated against or like, kind of benefited. Positively affirmed, right? Yeah, yeah. But then at the same time, there is the thing of like, oh, but it's a scheme. It's like, no, we'll, yeah, we're doing a BAME thing, BAME scheme and it's like, oh, why don't you just commission us because we've done X, Y and Zed before. So there's that kind of a battle of like, oh, you can be associated. It's brilliant production company, theatre, everything, but it's a scheme. So I think, yeah, I think it's great that they're getting people in but also it's still a thing, isn't it? Of like, well, can we just have what we should be, you know, deserve at this level. And then, and then it was interesting what Yasmin was saying about white men being your best friend, because after writing BAME, it was actually some Asian peers who were saying that I wasn't Asian enough to write certain stories. So, you know, which was quite a, I mean, I've had it, of course I've had it all my life, but I didn't really think that it would also be within the industry that I believe is kind of at a certain level that my peers are at a certain level and kind of engaged in a different way than people were back in the day, ten years ago at school. So it was very strange for me to be like, wow, okay, it's coming from within the community that I was kind of felt like I was part of, but now I'm obviously not, you know, or these people don't think I am enough. So yeah, so there's, yeah. I think that's really interesting that and, you know, an experience that a lot of us have support from white men, but I also wonder if we could push that a little bit further and say, to what extent is that white man supported within the structural narrative of whiteness that makes them, gives them the possibility more, I mean, it can be, of course, a completely benevolent exercise, but also structurally, is it more possible for that person to do it than it is for the person who is sort of not as self-empowered or powerful? It feels like they are still the gatekeepers and even though, I mean, I'm not actually working with a lot of white men who are actually there, so that wasn't necessarily what I was saying. But I do think there is this, in this, in Asian culture there is the kind of unfortunate mentality of pull the ladder up behind you, which I still think is affecting us. And it's something that we have to figure out, you know, because it's like we can be the only one at the table actually. There's not room for everybody else, but of course there is so much room because we are all different. There's not one homogenous Asian experience or like, you know, third generation Asian experience in Britain, like we all have stuff to say. I think it's about being brave enough to let everyone up at the table, not so scared, I think. I think it's come to a clear. Yeah, so, yeah, I think that's very... I think, I don't think about it like that. I think with white men who do stick up and actually open up the space are often taking a very big risk. Because I remember when, you know, it was Ian Birrell, who is a columnist now, who gave me my first column. He was the deputy editor of the Intended at the time. And, you know, I was crap, really. I knew nothing. I thought I wanted to do this, but it was terrifying responsibility and for him and for me, because he brought in somebody who was not part of the circle. He did that a lot, actually, you know, and, but he was a good mentor and he stood by me. When I was sacked from the Independent, the editor was an Asian man and make no other comment on that. Yeah, I think that's a very important point that you've raised as well, because it is, it's not to say the colour of your skin that determines the actions. It is, you know, I think it is much more complex than that. And you've precisely illustrated why those connections are important to recognise and understand to not make it a very simplistic sort of division amongst people, but to look beyond those boundaries and to see where those people are that are taking the risks. I just wanted to say this, especially if there are students listening and I say this to my students, it's a very important thing because identity politics makes you think in certain ways. And you begin, I think, to think that, you know, all white men are the obstacle and the way you get on, especially in this industry and probably quite a lot of other industries in the arts and even in academia is, I mean the story of Cornelia Surabji in the book is a very interesting one, because she, the way she got to where she got to, was by befriending or influencing powerful men, men who were so powerful that other men couldn't deny them. So the gatekeepers tried to chop her out of it and they did often, but she befriended, you know, the master of Bayley in college. This woman from India who wore saris and really wasn't accustomed to this society, a subject of the empire, manipulated those men and won them over. It wasn't even manipulation, she won them over and got what she wanted. And I say to my, I've said in the book, there are so many ways to skin the patriarchal cat. I don't think there's only one way. I'm so glad you brought up Cornelia Surabji because I was, I wanted to refer to your comment in the introduction, which you, where you refer to include the inclusion of Cornelia Surabji and being asked by British Asian academic as to why you're doing that and saying she was no feminist, opposed Gandhi and independence all her life, so why? And you say you acknowledge that that's a very important question to, and I think you've just answered it in terms of how you've put her in. So should we turn to some questions from the audience in the next sort of 10 minutes before we wrap up, as it were, because we can just carry on, this is fascinating. So there's a question from Imanji, I love to write but have self censored myself for so long about what I can write about even privately. And I'm finding it difficult to be honest about wanting to write honestly. How did each of you break through some of those social barriers which discourage us from speaking honestly and critically of both Western and Eastern culture and society. Such an excellent question. You should get a prize for the question. Because this is, this is, this is the struggle. You know, especially for communities who are experiencing discrimination. This this tug in your heart that you mustn't expose the bad side of them that you that by doing that you're exposing them to more nastiness and so on. I can't be honest about your family, your father, your mother, you know, they're all raised like that. But I, I honestly believe you cannot be a writer of any kind unless you are prepared to be disloyal and to speak with that voice that's inside you. And if you can ask a question like this, you are already a writer. You are already thinking like a writer. You have to stop this these barriers and just put it down and never be easy. I wrote a memoir, a food memoir about 12 years ago called the settler's cookbook. And it was about to remember my mother who had died and I was missing her so much, but I also was incredibly honest about our family life, how Ugandan nations were in in Africa and so on and so on. So it was interesting. I'd written a memoir many years before that. It was written in the heat of having given birth to my daughter, and about three relatives stopped talking to me after that book. That one was called No Place Like Home. After this one, I think about 11 relatives cut me out. But you know what, they've all come back. After the initial shock. After all that, you can rebuild your relationships with those people who fear your offending. But if you live, be honest and let that voice out. You must let it happen. And I think your question tells me you really are a writer. Brilliant. So I think that's a wonderful endorsement there for writing. And there's a, I'm not sure there's a question or a comment from Rubina. I will read it out. I think it's a comment. This means I understand the excitement of returning home to Tanzania. Very all I want, very all I wanted to do is feel the vibrancy, see the flame trees dominated by the culinary delights of eating chili mahogo, roast corn, peanuts. I too realized things weren't as we left them. I sensed a coolness and understandable reaction to Asian racism. Would you like to respond or just acknowledge that as a comment? Exactly how I felt. But I also realized, you know, how wrong we were. One of the terrible myths that I grew up with was, you know, we are the business people. Once we're gone, the economy will collapse because these people don't know how to do business or run businesses. And yes, the economy did collapse because we were so, you know, immediately thrown out and the country went through a very bad patch. The great thing last year was seeing how black businesses are flourishing young people in Uganda. Again, I go back to young people. They're not touched by colonialism anymore. Right. They don't even think about it anymore. They are doing their own thing. They are absolutely building Uganda's business sector. The writers that are coming out of Africa at the moment, astonishing voices. So I was thrilled by that. But I also felt that there was this, you know, lingering resentment. So after eating all the lovely food and everything. Yes, I felt that too. Okay, great. I'll just turn to a question for Nyla from Rose Taylor. Great discussion. I have a question. How has your Jewish heritage influenced, impacted your life and acting slash writing? Do you know what I was thinking? Well, thinking about the previous question on. Oh, gosh, what was it? I'm trying to find it now. It's just made me think of a time that was a discrimination. Right. And I think my experience of being Jewish actually was when I was writing, was writing while doing research for does my bomb look big in this. And I was doing research within the Muslim community in Luton. And it was actually there that I kind of experienced antisemitism for the first time since school, because they were like, who the hell are you writing this story? Your surname is Levy. And I was just like, my God, in my, you know, my day to day life I'm only ever seen as like, you know, Asian or Muslim. So yeah, so that was kind of a bit of a shocker of not being, not being accepted in that Muslim community in that way. And then kind of being seen as somebody who was trying to come and write this story from a specific angle. Actually it was related to the other self censorship question, because I went through a point when I was researching for my play and I was like, God, should I be telling this story? I want to be adding to the young Muslim girl terrorists, like no, I don't want to be doing that, but I also want to explore this story. And, you know, the reality is at that period in time people were being radicalized, you know, ISIS still exists. So we need to explore this and why can't I be the person to write it. But I did go through a lot of things have been like, shit, maybe I just make her, you know, just a normal Muslim girl and we don't touch that subject because people are going to come for me. And I mean people came for me in the Q&A as well of who do you think you are writing this. But it was that thing of just ignoring all the outside voices because you can't please everybody, you know, and just writing something. Some people would hate it or whatever but actually the women who didn't want to talk to me for research for the play. They did speak to me but they wouldn't let me speak to young Muslim girls from Luton because of course they didn't want to be associated in any way shape or form which I understood because of the Prevent Program and how that had completely ruined their lives. So they didn't want any association so they couldn't get into any trouble. So, you know, that was their reasoning for not speaking to me but then they did come and see the play, and they thought it was brilliant. So I think people see what they see from the outside and, you know, they've become really guarded and everything, but once they actually see what you've written and I think that that person who asked that question seems like they've got an issue that they really want to explore. And I think it's your, you know, whatever your experience is and whatever you want to write just get it down there. And I'm going to say it, fuck the haters. Thank you, Nyla, for being totally honest and upfront. I think it's brilliant. Anonymous attendee says, thank you very much for this amazing conversation as a Kurdish-Turkish woman myself that grew up in four different countries. I still struggle to associate myself with one identity. I hope to have the power one day to remold my discriminated and marginalized heritage. Do you have any suggestions for women like myself to get their voices heard? Yasmin. I think, like I said, there are so many now amazing groups, writing groups. One of the other people in my book, Kit Duval, for example, who was mixed race from Birmingham, who became a writer at, I think when she was nearly 60 or something, coming to the end of her 50s, wrote her first novel and has created these schemes for unheard voices. There are so many, if you Google unheard voices, I promise you there will be lots and lots of organizations and schemes that come up. People are hungry, people are looking for new stories. And I was very interested, I was very interested in the reaction to the two-parter, what was it called? Yes, I saw the first one. And of course it had its problems. Some people thought it's again the white heroine, but I didn't feel that. I felt the interest it raised in the lives of these extraordinary sisters, how they were managing to live the lives they wanted or craved within these structures that oppressed them was fascinating. And a novel about that would be unbelievable, actually, because you could expand your imagination, because that's the one thing in this report we've written in the lives of travel young Muslims. The authors are all female Muslims. So there are six women who've written this report, right? And one of the things we discovered was how the second and third generation Muslims negotiate their lives and identities and existences, almost hour by hour. So the people they are when they come home to their mums are very different from the people they are when they step outside and even go to the post office and they talk a bit like Nila in the play. And I find that so fascinating what a skill that is that they are able to integrate so many different aspects of themselves. And I think for you, search out unheard voices, new voices. And again, Nikesh Shukla has got all kinds of, you know, schemes going, which you could probably benefit from, and also colleges are teaching creative writing. So do you know how to do a short course on creative writing, every university is offering creative writing courses. So look those up. So as is always the case when you're having these intense and moving conversations time is against us. But I'm just going to read out the last two questions and ask both of you to quickly respond to them and then then we need to wrap up because Susan is going to take the stage at seven o'clock and we need to vacate the space for her. Yana says, I would like to ask both of you. I often feel that we as women also have inherent sexist beliefs both about ourselves and also about other women, because we're being socialized that way. Do you have any ideas on how we as women can challenge our own sexist beliefs, or any experiences or thoughts on that topic? I mean, I could answer that quickly and say I highly recommend Yasmeen's book Ladies Who Punch as an answer. But of course I'll let the two of you come in in a minute. The anonymous attendee question is directed at Yasmeen. Your approach is precisely what I've been grappling with trying to write about decolonization in an African context. But where I feel the focus in the literature is mostly one sided criticism of the colonialism but not that much about the ongoing roles of African political elite whose actions and inactions have caused a lot of suffering there. What would be your advice? Yes, the book has extraordinary examples. And often women are, like Margaret Thatcher, never wanted to be a feminist. And she only ever had one female cabinet member. And she just wanted to be the only one. There is this kind of judgment, you know, they're judgmental women who pass judgment on women's morals or how they look. The worst trolls, let me tell you at the moment I have are females. The worst, they are so horrible to me. Okay, and I think, my God, I'm a woman, and you have, you know, do not be any kind of allegiance to the fact that we are both of this, you know, we're both women, not a bit of it. So there is this problem. And but it's the same with race. In my view, some of the worst politicians we have at the moment, the most authoritarian and in a kind of unfeeling are, the Asian or black, you know, they are prepared to do the dirty stuff in order to get on is my view. Okay, Priti Patel comes from the same place as I do. I have no words to describe what I feel about her. Monira Mirza, who's a one of the most powerful people in Boris Johnson's secret circle, utterly, utterly devoid of any anti racism, doesn't even accept that there is a problem of racism so on so same thing with women, that there are always women who feel like, look at the women who vote for Trump. Women vote huge numbers voting for Trump. That's a problem. That's an issue. And we have to, I mean, we can't change them. And, you know, we have to kind of assume that time comes in often a time comes when some of these women learn the hard way that whatever you do in the stretcherous way in the end, your womaness will be your barrier. I really believe that very strongly. So, you know, that's my, what was the second question. I think you've answered. You've answered. Well, the other one was about decolonization and sort of I totally agree. I totally agree. It's so easy. And it's the same with British Muslims, I feel it's very we are so ready to talk by some all the time, but we are very reluctant to talk about how women in too many families are suppressed. We're too unwilling to look at how some of what happens within our communities is actually more cruel than what is being done outside. I have one template. It's the human rights and equality template, and I use the same one for everybody. And not make excuses. So, yes, the decolonization debate is a very important one. So, I think there are many countries recently where people have said to me in India, in East African countries, in Arab countries, I wish the British were back, at least there was less corruption. How heartbreaking is that, how heartbreaking is that, that they prefer the colonial system to what they're having to suffer now. Look at Nigeria today. We could go on for a very long time. Naila, I'm going to let you come in and have the last word before we sign off. So, on the sexist beliefs, I mean, I think, I think the only thing that I'm able to do is to just check myself, you know, when I have them and it even is like in, if I'm in a meeting or, you know, I have this thing when I go in for meetings and if, you know, and if there's a white guy in the front of me that I'm talking to, I immediately feel inferior. And I'm like, oh shit, I have no idea what I'm talking about. I must be so stupid. And I'm like, why am I thinking like that? I'm talking about my own play, which I wrote. Like, you know, it's like I could be talking about like, whatever my daily routine and I'd still feel nervous. So it's about, for me, those sexist beliefs that we are, you know, that we are just brought up with the same as racism. So I think you just have to check yourself because, well, that's all that I can do. Thank you on that on that note, you know, more, more power to both of you. Thank you for open Frank down to earth and buzzing conversation and congratulations to us mean on ladies who punch and Nila we look forward to your TV shows and wish you every success. Both of you, you're brilliant. You're doing excellent work. We are so proud of you. And thank you so much for lending your voices to the so as festival of ideas. It's been a pleasure to have you on board. I'd like to invite everyone to the power of the novel in narrative refugee experience with Susan Abel Hava, which is starting at seven o'clock. Thank you and goodbye for now.