 Radio Hacking will be 11 o'clock and if you don't realize this is a newbie track I guess you're a little bit more lost than the rest of us I was first to come out with a newbie track a couple of years ago and the idea of the newbie track is Not to insult you but the talks at Defconn were getting more abstract and more technical And it was getting hard to understand one year's track and let's see if all the previous years track So I established a new track just so for introductions new ideas and perhaps things that shouldn't be lined Up with two bracket track perhaps So I thought I'd leave you with these two and hopefully You'll retain us Hello, this is Shatter Okay, let's start this off completely different than most lectures I will give you exactly five minutes to ask me any question you want I will answer completely truthfully about anything you want to know right now without me ask Actually, two minutes two minutes. Good idea two minutes to ask me any question you can think of Yeah, everybody knows everything they want to know about you already know it all that's interesting I'm the team leader with Roots seller one of the things that my company does is We go in and we check both physical and virtual security on sites It's not a lot of people anymore that really do a lot of physical testing which is kind of fun And you'll see it there. We've got kind of a whole little sneakers video of something we were doing last week, but We're gonna kind of do this a little bit different than usual if you guys while we're going through this if you guys Have a question pop your hand up and wave or stand up or whatever I think that the quickest and nice easiest way to do this is if we kind of make this audience interactive versus everybody out there falling back asleep and Come in the end everybody ask for questions and nobody can remember anything render if you want to get that tip come in All right, I've got something that I picked up a couple years back and I honestly It's typically a little bit more flowery than things that I like But it's a little question. I'd like to ask you guys I'm I do have to give credit out. This is not mine. This is red dragons It became off IRC and he was handing it out to any of the newbies that were asking questions And you guys to answer this for me. Are you a hacker take a little quiz today for me today? Yeah Tell me if you fit this description You got your net account several months ago possibly even years You've been surfing the net and you laugh at all those media reports of the information super highway You have a red box and you don't pay for any phone calls You have cracker jacking around on every UNIX password file you ever come across Everyone at your school is impressed by your computer knowledge and you're the one that teachers ask for help. This is sound like you You are not a hacker. There are thousands of you out there you buy 2600 and you ask questions You read frack and you ask questions you join pound hack and you ask questions You ask all of these questions you ask what is wrong with that after all to be a hacker is to question things, right? But you do not want knowledge you want answers you do not want to learn how things work you want answers You do not want to explore all you want to know is the answers to your damn questions You're not a hacker. Hacking is not about answers hacking is about the tech path that you take to find the answers If you want help don't ask for questions ask for a pointer to the path that you will need to find out those questions Find out the answers for those questions yourself Because it is not the people with the answers that are the hackers. It is the people that are traveling along the path red dragon There's so many people nowadays because they sit here and they watch the media coverage that goes on with hacking And they look at their little script buddy's that they feel that It's always from point A to point B and then when they hit point B is when they become uber and it has nothing to do with that I Want everybody to stand up right now for me everybody on their feet I know this but get up anyway or not either way This will keep you from falling asleep. Are you ready? We're gonna do a call out here When I say roots you say seller when I say seller you say what already roots. I didn't say that now. Did I? Now I want everybody to sit down. I want you to think about what you just did Now everybody looks at me with a question face. Why did you stand up when I asked you to? Do I really have any control over your personal lives? Actually, I don't I'm not that powerful only shatter is no Point is is that everybody is so willing and ready to do things because they think that that's the only way people will be happy Because they don't want to be outside of the norm It's one of the things that hacking is it's that you explore the boundaries And if you can do it legally and you can do it safe, then that's the smartest way you can learn out there There are a lot of dangers in being the new script kitty on the block the smartest thing that you can do is if you would like to learn You need to come to DEF CON or any of the conventions or to any of the meetings out there or be friend people But you don't do it by acting like an asshole You do it by being appropriate and professional and remembering that if you treat people nice, let's typically treat you nice one of the same lines of are you a hacker is Something I've always used to describe when people have asked me that question over the years and it has been a few quite a few years I've been doing this and first one usually I respond with I said well It has to do with the mentality Hacker is not something that you simply decide one day and go, you know, I'm gonna be a hacker That sounds really cool and I hear about in the news and well I'm gonna you know get on bug track and learn how to be a hacker because that's what I'm gonna do today So I can read this.org Yes, the The only thing it's a mentality. It's mindset. It's something you do. You don't need a computer to be a hacker You don't need Scripts, you don't need software. You don't need tools You only need your mind for the most part and then everything falls after Have you returned a transistor radio? Have you got a new piece of equipment? The first thing you want to do to it is open up and see how it works. What makes it tick When you pick up a machine, do you look at the software or you look and see what kind of RAM it's running? How fast is a RAM? Can you tweak it to go faster? It's these kind of things that make a hacker. How can you take a? What's one build where the first hacks on the console games was converting a Super Nintendo over to use a VGA adapter That kind of thing that's the mindset that I tend to look for when I'm talking with people or working with them and they're asking if they When they want to be a hacker and I says well, you know, have you done these kind of things if they say no I says well, why are you bothering? Why do you want to do this? There's generally there's You know fame money are these the motivators to be a hacker? So Was loud I've had a statistic down that I was just told the other day and this obviously isn't for many of the big national sources But I'm talking to somebody here at the conference to have a great deal of respect for and they said that 90% of the time Did you hear about a hacker getting busted? It's one of the script kids and you can tell this within the first 30 seconds that you see them in their interview with CNN because they're asking them questions technical questions very simple to where the rest of the world can understand And whoever's behind the camera sitting there at the interview can't figure out the proper way to answer the question So they continue to contradict themselves across the board Um, one of the things that I push with these guys, it's like I grew up in Wyoming Now that my team is here Wyoming has no population to give you an idea how Wyoming is But one of the things that when I was growing up is I thought I was just the absolute little badass And I had to go out and destroy everything I could possibly get my hands on and I got this nice little rep And I just thought I was so cool and then this thing happened one day and I had to grow up And when I grew up the problem was is that that rep didn't go away And I've been working three years working very very hard and trying to be very professional to get people to understand The reseller is what we're trying to do and we're trying to be positive and I Still have people in my own hometown I just spoke to Microsoft conference the other day and my throat was slipped before I even walked in the doors They wanted me to come in and do a demonstration I walked in the doors. They say you're not allowed to touch our computers. You're not allowed to touch your network You're not allowed to touch our phone system. You're not allowed to touch this. You're not allowed to touch that These are people that I've worked with for years that should be able to trust me and they would not let me even go in and check my email So I made it very hard to go speak to Microsoft conference when I wasn't even allowed to have my own laptop there Another thing that I Bring up is that you remain stupid if you use others codes It doesn't really make any kind of sense For you to go out and try to be a script kitty It's cool that if you're downloading somebody else's codes or using somebody else's exploit That's a good thing But you need to study the code and look and see what they did not just compile it and use it Compiling is the absolute wrong way. I enforce something very heavily with my guys That's called learning versus compiling and there's this beautiful thing that they make it's called a book You can pick these up at your local library and they have so much knowledge in them You can sit down and get something like pro in a nutshell and learn this stuff in days If you really try hard at it instead of spending four to five years Trying to stumble through somebody else's code trying to figure out what they're doing and realizing that the final product We'll just get you you know, we'll allow you to take control of the box By the same token, there's there's another time that there's no sense in rewriting award hour. It's been done There's plenty of them out there. There's no sense in writing a new port scanner. Those are out there So in some sense, there it's it is redundant to go out and write the same tool However by the same token, you should know how that tool works. I understand when the tool is used and why the tool is used and This is the problem with a lot of the things right now that you know, you can get online You can get on the web you can find the latest exploit you download a patch You hack it or you compile it you run it and you've now owned a system or defaced a website. Is it hacking? No Not at all. Does this impress anybody? Maybe your friends or someone who has no knowledge of anything But anybody that has any real talent or works in the industry will not respect it. It's not skills and it's not anything to be proud of along the same lines with us to is There's a lot of pretense that goes with the script kiddies They they attempt to go out and impress people talking about skills. You know, well, let me see your skills. What skills do you have? You know, they talk about things like they're you're born with these skills. These are It's instinct. I have instinctive skills. Yeah, you know Anyone can learn how to use a search engine and find something. This isn't skill Exploiting a system after reading bug track is not skills Finding the new exploits can take some skill other times. It's just pure luck You stumble across something and you find it. Hey, this is kind of neat. Wow. I remember one years back to me it's about six years ago local The college had Internet dial-up access. They had two inbound lines and those tend to be busy a lot Well, the library system on the same campus also had dial-up access Well, we found the way it had an automated login script. Well as it was logging in we found if you just started hitting a lot of control G's Suddenly you would get a telnet prompt and you type You know type in your new address and now you're back at the school system you want to be at So now you can believe bypass their dial-up board that got used for a while and We eventually they found out what we're doing and then so we would found you found yet another hole and all they were Doing was simple shell scripts to connect from a dial-up into the system Some of the things too was we also found that From the same library system if you telnet it over to the actual public library system you came in under an anonymous account and It looked like you were rooted the system. You didn't have full root access But you could start sending out email to people so some of the spoof males that went out were rather humorous at the time But again at the end of it after we had our fun and played around with it. We did type up a rather long Kind of an overall and let the system sys admins know that okay. Look here's the problems Here's what we found and we've gone in and listed out the ways I could fix it and they did take care of it A few months later One of the local script kids decided that he had heard that we were going into the public library system he decided to come in right behind and Since there was some word of mouth things he stumbled into it and We had told him where to lay every trap to find somebody coming in to do this again sure enough He was caught he was arrested and the press had a field day with it having fun and he said in an interview telling the press how he was really hacking the system to provide the access for his friends to go on the internet and The key files he was deleting out of the Operating system was to make it run better In the same article the Admin of the major ISP of the town as well as the person who had set up the internet dial up for the college They kind of did an alternating paragraph and every time this guy would list out why he was You know for taking down the entire library system to make it run better this guy was saying well I don't understand why he's deleting these binaries. You know, these are key components of the kernel to run and compile And in the end You know the kid still to this day is working at the 76 gas station. That's his job Hey, you know, he got his little 15 minutes of fame and you got to run around tell everybody that he was you know Mr. Hoover hacker and That's what he does now he pumps gas and Meanwhile everyone else that was around And that had worked on the original system for letting him know what had happened various pro coders admins making you know the upper six digits and I've kind of have the other one office and they're still to this day hacking on code working on, you know different tweaks to systems and in streamlining and That's part of the difference between scripting compiling and learning and writing You script you compile And you're you know, it's short-term it's instant gratification and it will not get you anywhere at all One of the smartest ways to learn things and this is why Deathcon is such a wonderful thing is that you have the opportunity to meet some of the absolute best in the world While you're here in Vegas It's very important that you ask professionals these people if you run up asking for their autograph They're probably going to look at you quite oddly You got to realize most of these people spend a large majority of their time in wire closets And they don't talk to anyone and then when you come up and you're freaking out And you're trying to make them some big media star icon these people get very nervous I wrote down something here that I thought was a pretty good Way to describe it for a lot of people that don't still don't understand is that I used to box and I did Golden Glove and I thought I was just a little I thought I was the best of the best In my town because it's you know You've always got this nice little pool and you think you're all big and bad and I went and I started training with Cesar Hogan, I'm not sure if you guys know who he is But he is a professional boxer now guys amazing and I found out very abruptly and quite painfully that I was nothing But I trained with him and his brothers for about six and a half months And I actually got to put it where I could keep up with these guys And it was amazing that over three years of studying boxing and constantly working and constantly keeping in shape That I'd only gotten to this one point when I started working with the guys that were so much incredibly better than I was in a period of six months I had like Surpassed anything that I could have possibly wanted to do on my own While you're here the smartest thing you can do is come in if you see somebody that you notice or you recognize a name Or their face or whatever Relax take a breath sit down breathe and talk to these people Everyone here at Defconn is very approachable Chatter and I were at 3 30 in the morning the other day we're sitting Thursday Thursday morning had a gentleman come in and You know we were joking with this guy a little bit but nothing mean at all And essentially by the time things were over this kitty who nobody has any idea still Who this person is is essentially chest to chest with Shatter trying to get him to fight Now the point is this one that's stupid to fight Shatter because Shatter is a pretty big boy The other thing that's stupid about it is that This guy's not making friends that way he comes in totally acting like he's some little gangbanger which doesn't fly at this conference and Ruins any chance that this kid has had of becoming friends with either of us Got the same token at the same time at the same time as this is going on and I'm chit chatting with him I'm chuckling he sees you know trying to insult me Making various threats and posturing and gonna throw down and kick sass or whatever and I'm giggling and laughing and inviting him Just get a drink. This is Vegas. We're here to have fun. Let's enjoy get a drink. I'll buy you a drink I don't care. Let's sit on have fun. I don't even know he never even introduced himself First thing I have his mouth was walked up and said yo y'all hackers and When we start laughing is all we must be cis admins because you don't want to give information to nobody admins are always assholes. Yeah, I mean this is the way to make friends and influence people I mean you guys are I mean, we're not kidding. This is not made up By the same token as he walked in and picked me out of the bar to start getting in my face Pyro is next to me. I had another friend pimped over there behind him was fatal and there's two or three other guys I'm pretty good friends with in the bar at the same time, but he's completely circled by But you know, he walks right into the middle of this and just starts. I Don't know why I don't know what motivated it. I don't know if I was supposed to be impressed I wasn't and now we get to use this as a lecture example It's a beautiful one and you can see this kid Honestly was pretty new at things, but the thing that was frustrating You know the question that came out of his mouth after are you a hacker just before he really starts to throw down is So y'all down with CDC, right? That's like We get along just fine with the guys But yeah, exactly. That's right But you know we answer that way. He just this kid completely goes off This is not the way you don't come to con and act like this and expect to learn anything This kid's already on an ejection list of anybody sees him He's automatically ejected because I guess last night he was out in the lobby picking fights with people again If you're coming to the con you would like to learn you can approach anyone I was walking last night Goldstein comes walking by and these kids like harass him for about 20 minutes trying to get him to get his autograph No, I'm not sure if you know him personally or not. He tends to be pretty quiet guy He tends to be pretty laid-back He's one of the nicest guys on earth that you could ever meet Which don't go up and get in his face and shove a pen up in his nose and say would you please sign not a graph for me? It's just not the way you do things here at the con about the same token there's others there's you know By just relaxing and hanging out and being social you'll meet the darndest people I'm walking in the back hallway yesterday and a guy comes up to me and says excuse me I have to wear my goonshirt at the time So that kind of singles me out for people to approach a little more nonetheless and He hands me a card and I kind of look down I'm kind of glancing at it and he says this gentleman would like to come out and do a question and answer And he's here right now. I'm kind of okay. We call priest as I'm talking to priest I look and I realize that the seal on the card says director of the CIA and So the guy comes by and chitchat with a minute or just in the priest and then they later have the big Conference yesterday and you know he was though when I taught when I first saw him He was sitting like no he could have been like what about here in the middle Sitting in his pole shirt smiling and watching the lecture that's going on these people are among you and you can walk up And talk to them. They're there But walking up and start talking about yeah, I heck yeah who you're not gonna get anywhere First they laugh or you know, they'll question you really and when did you do this? Well? How did you do it? Well, that is utterly amazing and meanwhile you're saying you're giving a full confession to something Yeah And that's another thing. There's a lot of people that want somebody to spot us a better They think that there's a group of feds there. They instantly like blacklist these people They're here to and you know what if they're working for the federal government, and that's what they do for a living They're usually very intelligent people. You should sit down and talk with them Everybody see the gentleman from the Air Force that got busted yesterday I sat down with him a clone and I from hack Canada We sat down and discussed and just talked to this guy for Probably good 30 35 minutes with this guy, and he was great You know, it's one of the things like I said if you are here to learn the greatest thing in the world You can do is go out and grab somebody to drink and sit down and just relax Right now because of the media coverage that is happening typically the large majority of the exploits that you're saying that are going on out There are the web-based people taking down different websites and everything and it's you know That's fine. If you've got some message to deliver, but please you spell checker and Be used to have the common decency to back somebody's side up if you're going to exploit it I mean you should put a little separate directory off to the side and let this is admin know that you've done this Because there's no point that you know how pissed off I get if I've worked on something for 36 hours straight without a shower I come in the next morning some 14 year olds knocked it offline just because he could It gets very very frustrating. Yeah This can also lead into another one. I made your pet peeves that you give to pin me down and ask that I'll cheer you out for several You That's this whole concept of hats I Don't wear a hat I Own I own actually two hats one of them is for when it's raining and it keeps the water off my head and the other is my Geek culture comm propeller beanie because well the power head geeking out Media currently loves to put the title of black hat white hat gray hat in describing of what a person is doing the other person is a oh, you know a Paladin style white hat hacker who's there only to make everyone's life better in a complete utopian society The other is the evil black hat hackers who are there? You know 3 a.m. And they're raiding your trash and they're tapping your lines and all they want to do is get your credit card number and destroy your life and and ruin you and Crusaders right now and I'm sure several of you can name them who championed for justice and truth against these dreaded black hat Hackers and at any given time that they have a newspaper person in front of them will be glad to Make up stories and tell you anything that dude that you want to hear about just how evil they are and their sex life The whole concept of whether you are Doing something wrong. You're doing something right or it's just pure Naivete is One it's a mentality. Are you with intent maliciously going out to destroy something? Are you trying to gain access to a system in order to go in and ruin it and? That is what I consider to be the problem is when you are trying to go and ruin something defacing the website is not an Example of your skill With a few exceptions that I've seen done and they were done well and to this day people still haven't not sure how They got it and did it My like I can I'll cite the New York Times hack that was a beautiful defacement. It was well done. It was well thought out No matter how many times they fixed it It would mysteriously hours later put itself back to the hacked version and it took them better part of a week to get all of the little pieces of code and crowns jobs and Worms and anything else floating around the system out of it. I mean they completely littered the system with little tiny bits Of code yet. They destroyed nothing All of the site was fine. It just was a nuisance and it was very well done but Those those are those are few and far between those come around once a while once a year once every two years More often than not you hear about, you know major things like dosing, you know, I I cannot Go so I cannot keep saying getting tongue-tied. I cannot express enough how much Dossing is just it's it's wrong. It's crass There's a theoretically no real way to protect against it unless you have bigger bandwidth. That's it. It is the most absolute Crass attack possible. It's it's as bad as somebody Decides to you know, you say something and they blow you off and you pull out a gun and blow their brains out against a wall It's about that drastic of an attack It does not only are you hurting you're aiming at that your initial target But every system along that line and if you do a trace route you can see how many of them you are hurting You know every one of those has taken off line and destroyed I've seen DOS attacks that have last days that have brought down major chunks of the system Case in point it was this year or last fall Our friend J-dog up in Seattle. He some Burt IRC kiddies got annoyed and decided to start start flooding his He was on DSL at the time and they not only took him out They took out the ISP and they took out a good chunk of of major networks throughout all of Seattle Then it was taken down for a good 18 hours simply because of who he was dating Nothing else he had done nothing to anyone it was just IRC talk and these guys Retaliated because they're gonna show him There was in the lobby last night was based off of an argument that had occurred on IRC Some major news for people IRC is fake. It's not real life You don't have to come to the con looking to pick a fight with somebody because you argued with them on IRC typically 90% of us that are IRC are there to have fun and That's how we do it is by getting under people's skin But you're not supposed to come to the con and threaten people and get in this massive fight with them I should give you an example about looking in somebody's door. Oh, you know Changing gears again this little bit. So the thing goes in with the defacements I was thinking about it one day Because I kind of consider the philosophy of the whole aspect. I mean everyone talks about the technical skill I a lot of times think about the philosophy of what we're doing the the Humanity issues and repercussions a Lot of the defacements I've seen I'll check them out on nutrition and see what you know What's been happening lately and I see a string of them all from the same group You'll see like 14 defacements that day and all they really did was they found an exploit and they systematically went down a string of websites and were probing the system to see if it was open to that attack if it was they Went in the script automatically uploaded their version of the page and moved on to the next one They weren't even at a keyboard they didn't need to be they could just let this this thing run at night And it will go through a deface for them and they can you know claim they have skill with this And they're hitting these websites that are these little tiny mom-and-pop domains That could just be some guy's personal website. It could even be something as horribly insecure as a Windows 98 web server This isn't a this is not a hard system to take down. I you can I mean a shares attack will take it out in 15 seconds but You know how easy it is it to walk up to a five-year-old and punch him in the nose Mean this is not anything difficult and I kind of attribute it because they the explanation that they give every single time Is their justification for the attack into basement was they should have had better security? Trying to help them out by taking down their side. Yeah, we're gonna teach them a lesson and show them that they need better security by wiping them out Because I'm here to teach him because I've got skills. I've heard this. This is quoted. I'm not you know I've heard too many times And the example of this of someone needing better security is if I'm walking down the street and I see your house And I walk up and I put my foot through the door and I now take the VCR I'll haul the TV. I'll search for some cash takes and valuables and I'll even know it saying You should have had better security You should have had an alarm system on your house You should have had a full steel door with a metal frame with two inch You know one-way bolts on it as well as a full video surveillance system How about though we could mind we could put landmines in the front yard barbed wire around the house and have running dogs And electrify everything is that enough security to protect your house for me put my foot through the door and By that same token, why should you have to put up that kind of security to protect you from me? It's it's not right So that's that's one of the reasons these defacements really just annoy me and they just get me angry because there's their crass They're not it's not like you attacked a you know a high-level firewall bypassed it in and gained root access on on eBay say that you've now owned the entire eBay cluster It's nothing like that. You're going in and attacking a very small single system That's either based out of a home or a co-location situation more likely so you could be probably a home-based DSL or partial T1 or something these aren't hard to do and Just because it's easy to do is by no means grounds that you should do it The next one I have up there is developing a rapid. It's kind of it's a Little bit different. I didn't really want to come across that way But I didn't know another way to phrase it anonymity is a great thing if that's what you're going for that is perfect But if you're trying to be a security professional, you need to develop yourself a very well-known positive reputation the only way you're going to do that That's one of the reasons I asked that question at the game I asked you said you know I'll give you a few minutes ask me any question you want about me and I'll answer And at that time I would have I won't now I will not tell you some of the things I have done That was the time to ask it, but I have been doing this since I Think I got started actually doing a freak I was originally doing freaking back in 82 83 sometime around that and I didn't have a computer at the time And you know I discovered the really neat way to make a lot of free long-distance telephone calls, and it was fun But that's in token I have not gone around bragged about it I haven't written all forms of text files and such and tried to gain as much notoriety as I can because of it It's something I did it's something I was doing and For many years. I wasn't even aware of anyone else was doing it I thought maybe I'd stumbled on something really kind of neat and cool I'm keeping it to myself or once in a while, you know punching a code for a friend, you know, I just do that like I just know but The norm lately of the last few years has been to do something and then talk about it, you know Get IRC and bragged and bragged to everyone and anyone that will listen about what you've done Especially the federal agents it seems like yeah, because you want fame because you want reputation and You know that's kind of long-distance. We're going with this aspect point is is that whether or not you are going to be Black hat or a white hat you should always try for a positive Reputation if you're going around telling people how bad you are because you think you can You know this. Oregon 20 seconds Which was what our little bud that tried to get in the fight with shadow was telling us the other day The point is is that nobody's going to be taking you seriously if you're at a clients that you're checking security for and You're talking to one of your buddies that just happens to work there And you're telling them all about this box that you were nailing down last night It's not going to make the you know Your client feel very secure about having their having you on their side. They're trusting you with their network Always try to shoot for the for the positive image and it's very important to Defconn to do this You will have cameras in your face everywhere No matter what you're doing at Defconn There's probably a news crew around somewhere because Defconn has became increasingly popular with the public Very very important thing is to present Defconn professionally It doesn't matter who you are what part of the world you're from what your style is what crew you're from Whether or not you're black or white hat, but present yourself professionally because you are going to represent every single one of us And there are a lot of people that are going to be extremely pissed off if you go up there and try to act like some Little badass and then can't answer a question if it's asked We're gonna really start moving here because we've got a lot of people flooding in I think we're running short on time Yeah One of the things I got on how to learn there's an old standard trick There's this great collection of books called the rainbow books and the granted large majority of the information out there is Really behind on time, but at least look these over see understand what people are talking about when they're using different terminologies other one along the same lines of doing your research is There's There's kind of the old Some of the old Frank faces like you know those those who forget the past or do to repeat it Well, that's the same in computers I've I've seen over my years of doing things that I've seen cycles come and I've seen Some real I mean I mentioned a control G hitting it a bunch of times at the at the system to gain a telnet from We used to do the same thing on the bbss You could you could fire a bunch of controlled characters at a system and suddenly you crash the bbs software And you're sitting at a prompt on the guy These old some of these these old really stupid things will sometimes work again And you can you can learn a lot by sometimes looking at the way things used to work And try to take that old simple approach like the old black box. That was simply nothing more than a resistor That same aspect can be used again possibly in a different Angle but be used again to apply to more modern technology The more complicated the machine the more likely there are things to break on it and sometimes A stupid little thing that no one would ever think to try may do it Um General servers bug track and t security infosec Any of these these are great to be on and granted you'll probably receive about a thousand pieces of email a day The point is if you flip through and just look at the subject line It's a great way to learn because it keeps you pretty close to the cutting edge Um and come to cons talk to different people like this Uh next next section we got up there is hacking without going to jail Um, there's a lot of people that seem to think that the only way they're going to learn how to hack and Learn computer securities if they go out there and try to do it where they're working or to one of their enemies or whatever Go to your local libraries go to your local schools Typically they have old 486 machines sitting in a closet. They would just love to pay somebody to get out of their way Bring it home throw a network card in there install whatever os you're trying to uh learn And go to town if it's in your house It's on your lines on your time. It's 110 legal You can do anything you want to it without having to worry about hurting somebody else or without having to worry about going to jail Let's keep on going Okay, what else we had there's there's Take advantage of uh free word and open source Everybody's handed out At the conference. I mean they're passing it out left and right and it's a great way to learn Yeah, so yeah, we're gonna wrap it up because we got the next crew coming in. Yeah, so well. Thank you guys