 Mae'r next item of business is a debate on motion 1237, in the name of Jamie Hepburn, on building a new Scotland migration to Scotland after independence. I invite members wishing to participate in the debate to press their request-to-speak buttons now or as soon as possible. I call on Jamie Hepburn to speak to a move-the-motion minister up to 13 minutes, please. Thank you, Presiding Officer, and let me move the motion in my name at the stage, lest I forget. Migration is a hugely positive impact on Scotland throughout our history. We have been enriched in it by the contribution of those who have chosen to make Scotland their home. The positive impact of migration to Scotland can be felt in our families, in our communities, in our workplaces and indeed in this very Parliament. Every day we see the important role people have chosen to make their home and Scotland play in supporting the delivery of our public services in all sectors of our economy, in the academic and student communities of our colleges and universities and in our rich shared culture. We should be rightly proud of the history of migrants in this country. We also know that migration is vital to Scotland's future as well. For the past two decades, migration has been the main driver of population growth in Scotland. In addition to international migrants choosing Scotland as their home, inward migration from the rest of the UK to Scotland has been greater and outward migration from Scotland for every year since 2001-2002. Migration matters to Scotland. That is why I continue to stress that Scotland is a welcoming, attractive country for those seeking to make a contribution here is essential. Scotland's migration policy is decided not here in this Parliament but at Westminster. Both the Tories and the Labour Party want to keep it that way. That means that we are at the mercy of right-wing UK Government home secretaries who seem to be determined to adopt ever more extreme language and policy positions. Indeed, it is hard to imagine anything more damaging to Scotland's interests than the disgraceful, shameful rhetoric warning of a hurricane of migrants coming our way. It is well that a braverman may no more be home secretary, but there is no indication that James Cleverley will change direction. For the current UK Government, the hostile environment has not been hostile enough. For Labour and the Liberal Democrats, no matter what the cost is to Scotland, it is a price worth paying to maintain Westminster control over this Parliament and this country. Scotland takes a very different position. Six papers are now building a new Scotland series, Migration to Independent Scotland. It sets out very clearly the problems of the current UK approach to migration and why that does not work for Scotland's economy or for our communities. It is posed by a declining working-age population presents fundamental challenges to the resilience and sustainability of our communities, of our businesses and of our public services. Migrants can make a real difference in key sectors of our economy by strengthening and supplementing local skills, as well as by taking up jobs in regional economies that are otherwise hard to fill. In line with our ambitions for our more entrepreneurial Scotland research from the Federation of Small Businesses, it is found that one in ten small to medium-sized enterprises in Scotland are migrant-led. That is why a coherent and flexible immigration system is crucial to Scotland's success. Paul Sweeney. Thank you, minister, for giving away. Would you recognise that initiatives such as the ScotGrad scheme have been particularly effective at not just placing postgraduate students who were from an international background in Scottish businesses, but have also been highly successful at encouraging export growth by using indigenous foreign language skills to promote business development activity, which helps to grow the Scottish economy and create a virtual cycle? Minister. Indeed, I recognise that having specific schemes, predicator and specific outcomes can make a difference. I will come on to that in a few moments' time. Although it is only with independence that we can create a migration system that truly matches Scotland's need, the Government has already taken the challenges of demographic change seriously and why we are doing what we can within this devolution settlement to make a difference. In 2021, we published Scotland's first population strategy. It set out our aim to make communities across Scotland attractive places to live, to work, to bring up families and to move to. So that Scotland's population profile provides a platform for sustainable and inclusive economic growth and wellbeing. To support the delivery of that work, we established a ministerial population task force working across Government to consider how best to address those important issues. With the population strategy as our foundation, we are engaging with colleagues in local government, with COSLA and with our enterprise agencies as we develop our addressing the population action plan. The Scottish Government has made repeated attempts to try and influence and shape the current UK system. In 2020, we have published Migration Helping Scotland Prosper, a paper on the question of the population strategy and the focus of that work. Does the minister acknowledge that there is a very broad cross-section of opinion in Scotland that supports the concerns that the Government has about the strength of the working age population in Scotland and that it requires to be positive and proactive measures to tackle that issue, but that frustration has to be addressed by some solutions that I acknowledge the Government is offering because of the severe impact that factor will have on our economy and society if we do not address it properly? Minister, I will give you the time back. Yes, I do recognise that. Of course, there are specific sectors and organisations that make that point frequently. I know that Mr Swinney will encounter this in his constituency when he meets employers across a range of sectors, such as hospitality, food processing, agriculture, who rely on people who have come from other parts of the world to work here in Scotland. We also see social attitudinal research that shows that there is a recognition amongst the wider population that we need people to come here and live in Scotland. I return to the point that I was making. In 2020, we published Migration, Helping Scotland Pros, but a paper detailing how a tale of migration policy within a UK framework could operate to meet Scotland's distinct needs. The paper is informed by the advice and insight of our independent expert advisory group, as well as extensive engagement with employers, elected representatives, communities and organisations across the country. Our proposals were rejected almost immediately by the UK Government. We have also sought to evidence how a place-based approach to migration, one that allows vital migrants to come to our rural and island communities, could be tested under a rural visa pilot scheme. We published a detailed evidence-based policy paper more than a year ago, and the UK Government are yet to engage on the substance of this issue. Meanwhile, the Scottish Conservatives published their paper, Grasping the Thistle, which I cited in last week's debate on fair work, in which I will sit again, where I can see that Mr Fraser is excited, is excited by that prospect, and he will know that in his paper they describe the migration shifts to our urban centres and the negative impact on our rural communities. Their own analysis only serves to underline why our proposal for a rural visa pilot is an approach worth considering, and yet their fellow Conservatives and Westminster refuse to engage. We are a Government working with partners to try to address the issues that Scotland is facing through the delivery of our population strategy. We are a Government trying to constructively influence and shape the UK migration system to better meet Scotland's needs. We are a Government asking for engagement with Westminster so that we can work together in Scotland's interests, but we are also a Government continuously met with dismissal and disinterest from the UK Home Office. That is the limitation of devolution. It is only through independence that we have an opportunity to make sure that Scotland's migration policy is set according to our distinct needs and the challenges that we face. The proposals in our newly published paper describe a welcoming immigration system with a framework that balances the needs of its users with Scotland's wider demographic and economic requirements. The Scottish Government's vision for migration is underpinned by values of dignity, fairness and respect, values that are increasingly missing from the UK system that we are currently subject to, values that will allow us to sensitively respond to the world around us and Scotland's needs over time. When we launched our paper in Dundee the week before last, Shirley-Anne Somerville, Emma Roddych and I had the opportunity to discuss our proposals with stakeholders. We heard from local government, from the third sector, from higher education research, from representatives of the culture sector, from people who work directly to support refugees and asylum seekers, and from those who are focused on ensuring that migrant workers are supported. Those values that we set out in our paper were hugely welcomed. We heard about the challenge of working to support people in the current hostile environment. We heard about the economic opportunity that migrants bring to Scotland. We heard how important it is to take a place-based approach to help with some of the unique needs. When in Scotland we heard about the challenges presented by the ending of freedom of movement following Brexit. We know that many sectors of our economy and many parts of our country, particularly rural communities, are feeling the real-life consequences of Brexit and the ending of free movement. That's why our paper clearly sets out this to Government's ambition to rejoin the EU as soon as possible and regain the benefits of freedom of movement. We will shortly have more to say that on our on-going building and new Scotland series. Our paper sets out a system of visas that will allow people to live, to work, to study and to visit Scotland, as well as supporting inward investment and job creation. Those visas would form the core pillars of a managed discretionary immigration system helping Scotland's economy prosper, ensuring that we have the right people, with the right skills and in the right places. This is vital to help us address skills shortages across the economy. I have also recognised the crucial importance of non-UK citizens to the delivery of public services. Take, for example, our vital health and social care services. Scotland's health and social care sector must have the ability to recruit workers from outwith the UK to help to make the shortfall in workforce capacity. That provides employment opportunities for people who wish to meet Scotland at their home and ensures the protection of our most vulnerable citizens. Ensuring that we have a migration system that meets our needs is important for every aspect of our lives. There are a range of proposals in our paper that describe just what we mean by a system that meets our needs. We would establish a 11 Scotland route to allow people and their families to come to Scotland without the need of prior sponsorship from an employer. We would incorporate a place-based element to this route, building the proposals that we have seen. We have been urging the UK Government to endorse for a rural visa pile, providing much-needed support for our rural and island communities. We would retain a seasonal worker visa but extend it to support a broader range of seasonal industries in Scotland, ensuring that the migration system serves all parts of our economy. We would introduce a five-year Scottish connections visa supporting the ambitions of this Government's population strategy by providing a visa route for people with a connection to Scotland to return or remain here. Alongside the work in Scotland visa, that will increase the pipeline of talent that our employers need to grow our economy across every part of Scotland. Do you have time, Presiding Officer? I can give you the time back, Minister. Paul Sweeney. Thank you, Minister, for having always been very generous with his time. He mentioned the need to recruit health and social care workers in a particular area of concern. Does he recognise the recent condemnation by unison of the proposal to increase visa fees for workers? Perhaps there is an opportunity for the Scottish Government, which would be very cost-effective to create a patient loan scheme or grant scheme to incentivise workers to move to Scotland without having to incur those huge visa fees. Minister. We will always consider what we can do within the powers that we have, but far better we have had those powers in our hands in the first place so that we didn't have to see those large fees put in place in the first instance. Presiding Officer, I have laid out some of the important and vital policies that we propose, but this paper does more than describe the mechanics of a migration system. It also demonstrates that migration is fundamentally about valuing people. Those who already live here and those who wish to make Scotland their home. The words that we use to describe people who wish to come to Scotland are important. We see Scotland's future migrants, individuals and families as having something positive to offer to society, to our businesses and to our communities. We want to welcome people who can contribute in that way. We are proud to set out detailed proposals that extend a warm welcome to Scotland. Part of that welcome approach is about removing unnecessary barriers to migration, which is why our paper makes clear that Scottish visa fees, and this relates to Paul Sweeney's point, Scottish visa fees would be set at a fair level that ensures full-cost recovery, but does not seek to generate excessive revenue. That would reduce costs for individual migrants and employers seeking to bring their talent to Scotland to support their businesses. Of course, the warm Scottish welcome we want to see extends to asylum seekers and refugees as we face the increasing global impacts of international conflicts and climate destruction. We will not ignore our wider responsibilities. Today, Scotland provides a welcome home to many asylum seekers and refugees. Each of us will see that in the communities that we represent in here. The proposals in our paper demonstrate our commitment to continue to offer sanctuary to people in need. We set out an approach firmly rooted in respect for international law, human rights and social justice. It sets out humane and compassionate policies rooted in support and integration in line with our existing New Scots integration strategy. A hallmark of the cruel nature of the UK asylum system is where those seeking asylum are simultaneously denied recourse to public funds but also not allowed to find employment. A crucial means of supporting integration and ensuring the dignity of people is by ensuring asylum seekers have the right to work, have access to employability support and access to public assistance. That is vital to reducing the likelihood of destitution. It is also in stark contrast to the current inhumane asylum policies that restrict people's rights and limit support where they wait, often far too long for a decision from the Home Office. Tomorrow, Presiding Officer, we will learn the Supreme Court's judgment in relation to the UK government's plans to relocate people to Rwanda to have any asylum application considered there. The UK should be upholding the UN Refugee Convention and supporting people who need protection, not undermining international protection. The UK government's memorandum of understanding with Rwanda abdicates the UK's moral and international responsibilities to recognise and support refugees. I find it impossible to believe that any government in independent Scotland would pursue such a shameful policy. We would not seek to outsource any part of our asylum system to another country. We cannot prejudge what the court will rule, but we can say now that so well a brave man has gone, so this policy should go too. Presiding Officer, let me conclude. An independent Scotland would have the opportunity to create a new approach to migration, to create a new approach to asylum. It would allow us to ensure an efficient and timely processing of asylum protections ending the appalling backlogs that we see in the current system and that we would know the ungable and no detention by default. Presiding Officer, we want all communities to be able to thrive and for our economy to prosper. People choosing to come to live, work and study in Scotland's key to our future success. That's why we need Scotland's migration policy to be decided here in this Parliament. That, Presiding Officer, is why Scotland needs independence. I now call on Donald Cameron to speak to a move amendment 11237.1 around nine minutes, Mr Cameron. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and can I move the amendment in my name? I had a familiar sense of deja vu while reading the Scottish Government's motion ahead of today's debate. Aside from the usual criticism of the UK Government, there's also some powerful spin on inward domestic migration, despite the fact that we know that Scotland's population has seen the least amount of growth across the UK according to the recent census. We have yet another debate about a Scottish Government paper on separation that is full of hypotheticals and conjecture. Deputy Presiding Officer, we have debated migration and population some four times during this session of Parliament. Nothing to my mind has changed substantially since we discussed the issue of migration back in June. We could have used this time today to debate about how we reversed the trend of rural depopulation as highlighted in the recent census data that has been published. We could have used this time today to have a wider debate about delivering new ferries for island communities and why there are further delays and added costs to the vessels currently being built. Instead, we are debating an issue that is simply not a top priority for the people of Scotland. In fact, the constitution itself isn't even in the top 10 of people's priorities. It is yet another sign that the Scottish Government wants to avoid talking about the things that people actually care about. Of course, I will try to address some of the issues that are raised in this paper and the spirit of this debate, but I want to reiterate that we should not be debating an issue that is not only hypothetical, but also is not a matter that comes within the remit of this Parliament. I thank the member for giving way. He suggests that this area is not a priority for the people of Scotland. Would he recognise that many of our public services, social care, many of our areas of the economic life, hospitality, food processing and agriculture have relied on people coming from other places to Scotland? Would he not recognise that those areas are a priority for the people of Scotland? Not only are we coming to this, net migration has doubled. The real issue for the minister is why has his Government failed to improve those public services, given that his party has been in power for the last 17 years? Immigration is plainly a matter reserved to the UK Parliament. It is obviously up to any party here to determine how it uses its debating time, but I do think that people across Scotland will be impressed that this is what the Scottish Government choose to focus on, not least because the independence papers of which this is part of have already cost the taxpayer almost eight... If I could just continue, not least because these independence papers have already cost the taxpayer almost £80,000 and counting on top of the £1.5 million. It allocates to civil servants working on its independence perspectives, but this latest paper makes a series of bold claims on what it would do differently while simultaneously acknowledging that any attempts to change immigration policy would be complex, buried away in page 51 of the report. A review by the Law Commission to provide recommendations for simplification took over two years, for example. It also lists a series of various new visas that it would establish, including its so-called Living Scotland visa, which would incorporate a place-based element to tackle rural depopulation. Now, while the sentiment of this... Not at the moment. While the sentiment of this may be welcome, the fact remains that Scotland's rural population has been in free fall for some time and the current Government has failed to use the existing powers of this Parliament to tackle the root causes of rural depopulation. Those include a lack of available and affordable housing, poor infrastructure, unreliable ferries and higher costs of living. More widely, there is a desperate need for economic regeneration across Scotland. That's how we attract people to this country. From 2007, that's what should have been at the centre of this Government's policymaking. However, at its heart, this paper fails to address the reasons behind Scotland's population stagnation. As I said at the beginning of my speech, Scotland has had the lowest rate of population growth of anywhere in the UK. That's for a variety of reasons, namely mortality, fertility and migration. I would like to reiterate a couple of points that I've made in past debates on these key factors, on mortality, data published by the National Records of Scotland states that Scotland has the lowest life expectancy of all UK countries and that life expectancy for men and women declined between 2018 and 2021. On fertility, Scotland has the lowest total fertility rate of all the UK nations and has been in gradual decline since the mid-2000s. The Scottish Government's own national population strategy states that Scotland's total fertility rate has fallen from 2.5 in 1971 to a record low of 1.37 in 2019. On migration, the Scottish Government may want to state that more people are moving to Scotland from the rest of the UK rather than in the opposite direction, but it cannot ignore the fact that Scotland has consistently taken below its population share of international migrants. Instead of debating a high... Yes, I will. I agree with the member to take more migrants. That is exactly what the Scottish Government is offering to do here and through responses to humanitarian crises like that in Gaza. It is the UK Tory Government which is refusing to allow us the powers to accept more migrants or to open up clear routes for life in Scotland, which is what we have laid out here. Donald Cameron, I can give you the time back for the intervention. Instead of debating a hypothetical paper on Scotland's migration policy and the event of independence, what this Parliament should be debating and what her Government should be doing is answering the question is why is it that not enough migrants come to Scotland? The most recent data available from the NRS shows that in the year up to June 2021, Scotland's net migration stood at 18,900 compared to a UK-wide net migration figure of 239,000. That is well below our population share. No, I am afraid that I have taken a number of interventions. The reasons for that are many. It may be because Scotland is the highest tax part of the UK with anyone earning more than £27,850 in Scotland paying more in income tax compared to elsewhere in the UK. It may be because the Scottish Government has failed to deliver its infrastructure pledges such as its dismal failure to deliver the roll-out of superfast broadband on time to all homes and businesses. It may be because the Scottish Government is failing to build more homes, especially in rural parts of Scotland, which is driving rural depopulation as a result. Instead of debating the reasons behind those existing challenges, we are here debating a hypothetical scenario. Rather than focusing on the immediate priorities of the people of Scotland, we find ourselves spending time debating a paper that has no grounding in reality. It is a wish list of ifs and maybes and it fails to address any of the existing reasons that prevent people from choosing Scotland as their destination to call home. We should be focusing on the real challenges of today rather than the Scottish Government's obsession with independence. Those benches will continue to use our time in this Parliament to debate those pressing issues and stand up for Scotland's real priorities. Thank you, Mr Cameron. Paul O'Kane to speak to a move amendment 1237.2, around seven minutes. Mr O'Kane? Thank you very much, Deputy Presiding Officer. Today we have the opportunity to discuss issues of migration, migration 2 and internally within Scotland. I welcome the chance to discuss how we deal with the population challenges and the consequences that it has in our economy, our public services and our communities. I welcome also the opportunity to shine a light on the failure of the current Conservative Government in Westminster to get to grips with the challenges raised in migration, refugee and asylum systems in a humane and dignified way. Of course we can't avoid the fact that today's debate is not set in the context of action that we could take right now in Scotland in a context of how we might bolster our public services and invest in the skills of our people. Rather, we are having another debate in the context of independence. I do have to question the value of spending time in this chamber debating the SNP Government's latest series of hypotheticals. But then again, if I were this Government I probably wouldn't be too keen on debating the reality at the moment either. It's now number 6 in a series of papers from the Scottish Government on the Build a New Scotland series. Another paper which outlines the Scottish Government's vision for an independent Scotland. But if it wasn't readily apparent independence is not on the horizon. Of course this is just the latest in an ever-changing landscape of what independence is or will be or may not be according to the SNP. Perhaps, like many similar documents it will simply lie gathering dust while the present needs remain unaddressed. Presiding Officer as I acknowledged in my opening the Government motion does lay out again in some detail what the challenges are that face Scotland in terms of its population. This is an issue we have discussed in the chamber before and has been well documented by Scottish Government papers and other bodies including the National Records for Scotland and the Office of National Statistics. Indeed, our debates in the chamber regarding these challenges have often been constructive and positive and people have spent time across the chamber trying to find common solutions not simply retreating into constitutional binaries. The headline figures from the 2022 census around population growth compared to the rest of the UK compared to the last census period only just scratched the surface. We have heard much already about the challenges that persist. In terms of our population age the latest registrar general's annual review of demographic trends showed that Scotland now has more people aged over 65 than under 15. We know that there are significant challenges in terms of an urban rural divide. Most central biolocal authority areas saw increases in population over the last decade whereas a 2020 report from Scottish Council for Development and Industry demonstrated that many of our rural and island communities are expected to experience a major decline in population by 2041. There is no denying that these trends are posing challenges to our public services not least our NHS as well as national productivity and skill shortages that we are currently experiencing and will continue. In all of that context my question for the Scottish Government is why are we not spending more time debating how to fix these issues in the here and now? Why are we spending our time hypothesising about how it might be addressed in an independent Scotland? If the answer to that question from the Government is that, and we have heard it already today, we can only solve it with the full powers of independence then I believe that that is an incredibly defeatist attitude and they should perhaps vacate the front benches here and get out of the way for people who are actually determined to work on solutions in the here and now. I will take my sforbs. Kate Forbes. In the spirit of looking for solutions to the issues that the member has rightly outlined, Labour are obviously keen to get the keys to number 10. How would Labour's policy on immigration differ from the Tories? I am very grateful to Ms Forbes for her positive engagement there and certainly I think sounding positive about the prospect of a Labour Government. I am about to come on to talk about Labour's approach to regional and nations and regions variations in terms of migration and how we might change the advisory committee to work better. I will in my remarks speak about our approach to immigration and to supporting much of the detail of what was laid out in this paper about how we perhaps support countries in the global south. How we support countries in the global south to ensure that they are more resilient and to ensure that safe routes do exist for people coming to the United Kingdom. I have just said that I would make some progress to refer to those points. If the minister will allow me then I will perhaps let him in later. I was speaking of the challenges in rural Scotland. I visited Tindrum earlier this month and one thing I heard repeatedly from business people I spoke to was the need for more adequate housing in rural and island areas. I focussed on new models of house building in rural areas. It has been called for by the Scottish Land Commission to help to address imbalances in rural populations by ensuring that there is a pool factor to the areas. We know from the weather report that there is a major skills gap in Scotland that is causing significant workforce problems for many sectors of the economy including manufacturing, agriculture and tourism. I do not think that we need hypotheticals to begin upskilling and re-skilling large segments of the population to meet workforce shortages and to provide better outcomes. What we need is investment and clearly following through on the recommendations outlined in the weather's review and in other documents. If I can come on to that point about the hostile environment created by the Conservatives at Westminster we heard the minister in his contribution say that it is rightly opposed by the Scottish Government that it is not the option the direction that they would take but I must say that I am surprised to find that we have had cries in the last week or so from organisations just like Scotland to the Scottish Government to heed the recommendations in the equality, human rights and civil justice report on asylum seekers in Scotland to make sure that there are strong policies in place to mitigate the illegal migration bill. It does not seem that the Government is willing to bring forward an action plan to mitigate those effects on the act. Indeed they had said that they would do that but that does not appear to now be the case and perhaps when Merodic gets their feature she might be able to explain why that approach has been taken by this Government who seems so keen to challenge the Conservatives on their rhetoric and on their policy. I will take the minister at this point. Of course this Government will always seek to do what it can but can I ask Mr Cain respectfully is mitigation the highest hope he has for this Government? I want this Government to use the powers in the current situation where we have a Conservative Government that does not seem to care that's rigging any legislation that is pernicious as I have said in this chamber before this Government does not seem to want to mitigate it. Why is that? What is the point in this Parliament if not to mitigate the policies of this Conservative Government which will then be replaced? Mr Cain, can you resume your seat? Can you resume your seat a second? There have been plenty of interventions. The minister has just had an intervention. I do not think that it is appropriate for him to resume his seat only to heckle from a certain reposition. Mr Cain, could you resume but begin by concluding, please? I do not think that we are going to get an answer as to why no mitigation is forthcoming but a UK Labour Government will reform and strengthen the Migration Advisory Committee as I referred to in my answer to Kate Forbes to have input from across the nations and regions of the UK to ensure that a visa system can work in all nations and regions, not just Scotland, is why a UK Labour Government would follow through on a plan to fix the asylum system, scrapping unethical and unworkable Rwanda scheme, reforming the legal rights for refugees to ensure that people are no longer exploited by smuggling gangs. That is the height of my ambition for this country. When the people of Scotland are thinking about what a more realistic, more actionable plan is to support Scotland's population and reforming migration in this country, there are two visions to compare. A Labour plan that can be enacted at speed from day one of a UK Labour Government next year or the SNP wishing on the Never Never to set up a migration system which we are not certain of how it looks whilst failing to deal with the real issues right now choosing not to mitigate and to deal with these issues in a myriad of ways available to them and that is why I am pleased to move the amendment in my name. Thank you Mr Rookine. I will now call Alex Cole-Hamilton around six minutes. Mr Cole-Hamilton. Thank you very much indeed, Presiding Officer. I am not even sure what we are doing here, frankly. I am profoundly reluctant to linger on this SNP. If I might have a moment of the chamber's time that would be very grateful. Presiding Officer, I am heartily sick of spending any of our time on this SNP Green Government's latest delusional independence paper. I am sick and tired of indulging this dead-end fantasy in the precious time that is given to us in this chamber. How much ink has been wasted? How many words have been spent? How many hours of civil servants time and of our time have been squandered on plans and proposals that they must surely know will never see the light of day? The Scottish Government needs to cease the production of these independence papers and reassign the civil servants attached to them working on them to areas which actually reflect the priorities of the people of Scotland, such as addressing the cost of living, rivers and lochs of sewage and fixing the crisis in our NHS. Those are the priorities for the Scottish people. They are what they sent us here to address and so they should be the priorities for the Scottish Government too. Here we are. I will take an intervention. I wonder if Mr Cole-Hamilton would reflect on the fact that it is somewhat gallant to hear a man who leads a group of four telling this Government that was elected and that it should be doing so. We stood on a platform to take this forward. We have every right to take it forward. What does he think he knows better than the people of Scotland? Alex Cole-Hamilton, give you the time back. For the last two and a half years, since the last Holyrood elections, our waiting lists have increased. Our educational attainment gap in our schools has widened. The cost of living felt by the families and communities in this country has gotten worse, all because in large part of ministerial disinterest focused on this constitutional white elephant. We must debate immigration today. That is clearly what I must retain my remarks too, so I will do it. I am a Lib Dem and I care passionately about those people half a world away that I may never meet. I also believe fundamentally that immigration makes our country stronger and more prosperous. I won't talk about independence in some unlikely independence Scotland, sorry, immigration in an independence Scotland, but how we can improve it in the here and now in the United Kingdom. The Foot the Statue of Liberty on Ellis Island in New York, those words are inscribed. Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to be free. Those words speak to a cornerstone of western liberal democratic world view. A belief in diversity and in pluralism that more that unites us than divides us and that immigration is a positive thing. Until just yesterday we had a Conservative Home Secretary who used the term invasion when speaking of those seeking refuge on the shores. Gary Linnaker was exactly right when he talked about the language of Germany in the 1930s. I am deeply concerned at the hostile atmosphere and the rhetoric that has all too often been apparent in respect of refugees and of asylum seekers. I can't see that the Scottish Conservatives have made any effort in calling that out. Those words without saying that the end of her tenure is very welcome and indeed long overdue is incumbent on all of us, both Westminster and here in this Parliament to be clear and forthright in our defence of the virtues of immigration. Its benefits can be measured in the growth of all kinds, cultural and economic, just to name just two. Indeed people arriving on the shores to establish and build thriving businesses is part of our Scottish story. Whether it be immigrants from Ireland in the 17th century, those arriving from the continent, from Italy and Poland at the height of the industrial revolution and following the Second World War or in the 1960s and 70s where many arrived here from India, Pakistan and Uganda, they were all welcome, they are all welcome, they have made a welcome contribution and of course right up to this present day where we have seen thousands of Ukrainians arrive in search of safe harbour here they have been welcomed into Scottish homes and in communities. Immigration has enriched this nation bringing new cultures, languages and traditions which have melded with and enhanced our very own. It has created jobs and filled labour shortages in key industries whilst bringing new perspectives and fresh ideas which have driven innovation and growth. Presiding Officer, they are our friends, they are family, they are us. It is not news to this chamber that my party are proudly in the United Kingdom. We believe in Europe for Europe's sake. Brexit has been bad for this country and we have lost a lot because of it. We have lost a lot because of it. I am pragmatic and I am remorseless about building bridges and re-establishing connections with our European friends and neighbours. But we will never solve the problems caused by Brexit by creating yet further separation and chaos by separating the United Kingdom. I'll take an intervention. It makes a completely erroneous claim that his party is the most pro-European. Can you tell us what his position is in rejoining the European Union? I fundamentally believe that our best place in this United Kingdom is as a full member of the European Union. I've always believed that. That is why my party's approach is practical, remorseless, pragmatic and yet completely unrepenting. Mr Swinney, enough of the century interventions. Alex Cole-Hamilton. I make no apology for that. Any remainder, any ardent remainder will see the fallacy and the lie of the Scottish National Party that believes that independence is somehow a lifeboat to membership of the European Union. Oh well. John Swinney, briefly. I'm grateful to Mr Cole-Hamilton for giving way and I would encourage him to think carefully about the language that he's just put on the parliamentary record. It wouldn't be a complete answer to Mr McKee's intervention for Mr Cole-Hamilton to say that he might be all in favour of EU membership but he's going to do nothing about it. Alex Cole-Hamilton. My belief is absolute that we were fundamentally better off as full members of the European Union and our approach as the Liberal Democrats is realistic, pragmatic but it's utterly remorseless towards that aim but they wouldn't have us for years to build and re-establish those connections right now whereas the SNP offer a pipe dream based on no relevance whatsoever to the mass-stricted accession criteria for one yet they believe that on the hope that they convinced ardent remainders to join them in their separatist cause and my goodness they will find you out, they have already found you out. In 2016 the UK voted to leave a union that we had been part of for less than 50 years and what chaos that caused that might be wrought by dissolving one that has lasted for 300 years and more. How fortunate it is that today's motion has sought to use such an important issue to further its narrow nationalist political ends. That's a far cry from the sort of grown-up politics that we desperately need right now that this Parliament was designed to foster and which our constituents want to see. Instead of stoking those further divisions that want to undo the damage that has been caused by the Conservative Government by the SNP Government by building a fair and effective immigration system that treats everyone with the dignity and the respect that they deserve. Thank you very much. We now move to the open debate. I call first Karen Adam to be followed by Craig Hoy around six minutes, Ms Adam. Thank you, Presiding Officer. A few years ago out of curiosity and with a passion for genealogy I sent off my DNA to find out my genetic make-up. My father and I are keen genealogists and I really enjoy the shared passion that we have so you can imagine the joy when my father also did his DNA and we were in fact confirmed matches. As I prepared for my speech today I went and logged in to check the updates for my DNA profile as they often change as the technology updates have improved. I'm 88 per cent Scottish, 7 per cent Irish, 4 per cent Norwegian and 1 per cent Danish slash Swedish. So as I contemplated the complex mixes of human DNA I'm reminded of the vital role migrants play in Scotland's history and future. As I look through the many records of my dad and trace the steps of those gone before it creates a connection between us and them and it paints a picture of diverse and mobile people. Those connections support an understanding of human existence and it's not different for us as we are here today in Scotland to sometimes desire to live where we can get work, where we are safe and where we are ultimately going to survive like many people across the globe. It's human nature to want to create a better life for us and our families. Migrates contributions are invaluable from bolstering our economy to enriching our culture particularly in rural and island areas and our nation has been and continues to be shaped by migration. The influx of people from the European Union had transformed Scotland helping to reverse the trend of population decline and brought a surge of diversity and global perspectives. The progress we have made however is under threat from UK Government's past and present. From dragging us out of the EU against our will and to the Home Office's hostile environment approach to immigration. Being shackled to the United Kingdom will do nothing but hinder us as we try to address Scotland's unique demographic challenges. We are bound by these UK policies and our efforts to address these issues are severely constrained. Those currently going through the UK Government's cruel asylum system are unable to work under UK employment law and some of those are receiving just £9.58 per week. That is pitiful and it's left some of the most desperate people in desperate conditions. Without independence we are only able to mitigate the cruelty dealt by Westminster and I believe that that is not a good enough position to be in. I am proud that our Equalities Committee has called on the Scottish Government to provide free bus travel for people in the asylum system. There are things we can do and we are do it but we need to do more. The oversight of the immense value immigrants bring to rural communities such of those in the northeast especially in my constituency of Bampshire and Bucking Coast has persisted for too long. Westminster's control over migration policy epitomised by the hostile environment has inflicted considerable harm on both migrants and on Scotland. With the full powers of self-governance Scotland can forge a migration policy finally tuned to the needs of our people, businesses and economy. The specific challenges faced by communities in the northeast long overlooked by Westminster would be directly addressed. Sectors like Fisheries integral to the livelihoods of communities in Bampshire and Bucking Coast are grappling with worker shortages and struggling to fill vacancies. If the northeast is to thrive thrive in the future we must take our immigration policy into our own hands. Yes. Paul Sweeney. Does the member also recognise there are other federal migration systems such as Canada's provincial nominee programme which could be beneficial to Scotland and could be the basis for further negotiation under the devolved settlement? I would have to look into that a bit further but I am willing to do so. The Scottish Government is willing to do anything they can to try and resolve these problems within our limited powers that we do have. There is another way. The vision outlined in the latest Building a New Scotland paper charts a course for an independent Scotland one where our migration system is driven by humanity and dignity fully realising the benefits of migration for both our society and economy and in this vision the rights of migrants are protected and free movement within the EU is a priority underlining our commitment to being an open inclusive nation. Most of all this paper is a clear example of the commitment to be a welcoming country where we value the contribution of migrants. A call to the rest of the world that we see migration as the positive that it is and that we acknowledge human diversity as vital to tackling ignorance. Overall a well managed migration policy could be a significant a significant asset for an independent Scotland supporting its economic growth demographic stability and cultural vibrancy. Sign officer next year myself and my father will be travelling into Europe to trace the steps further afield of our ancestors and the brilliant reminder of how interconnected we are as humans and how countries have so much to gain from each other. Far from the bigoted anti-immigration little Britain rhetoric we will be reminded of how migration enriches our cultural diversity ffoster social cohesion and it will enhance Scotland's attractiveness as a multicultural independent society. I'm deeply disappointed by this Government's decision to spend valuable parliamentary time debating ffictitious hypotheticals hypotheticals about what would happen if Scotland were ever to one day become an independent country to leave one of the most successful unions in history. But there is no word this week on the big issues from this Government. No word on what support the Scottish Government will offer to families being squeezed by rising living costs. No word about how it will tackle the mounting storm facing our national health service this winter. And no word on how it would punish the SNP's health secretary who tried to get away with spending £11,000 of taxpayers' money on data roaming charges incurred whilst he was on holiday in Morocco. These are the misplaced priorities of this secretive and incompetent SNP Government. No, I'll make some progress. Instead of addressing these legitimate concerns about the management of our public services this Government has launched a paper on migration in an independent Scotland which is something very unlikely almost impossible to happen in the current parliamentary term given that they have lost and passed their referendum date. In other words, valuable Scottish parliamentary debating time is being wasted. Nearly £80,000 is being spent on the last five papers in this series. A minister on £100,000 a year on the wrong priorities. Nearly £1.4 million of taxpayers' money is being spent on civil servants' salaries for this Government's party political crusade for independence. I will take an intervention. Thank you very much. I just wanted to take on board the member's point about not dealing in hypotheticals dealing with big issue and not wasting money on court cases. In light of all that what is his view on the Rwanda policy whose outcome we anticipate tomorrow? It is quite clear that for this country we need to have safe and legal routes in and we also need to make sure that we disincentivise those people smugglers who are trafficking people and causing misery. We will wait to see how that court case progresses tomorrow. No, I won't. I will make some progress. I only have six minutes. We should in this Parliament not be dictating these fictitious papers but instead focus on our health service, our place, the cost of living crisis, jobs competitiveness, those two ferries that our island communities don't have, everything that this SNP Government does not want to address. For example, just in the last week more than two in five patients waited over four hours to be seen at accident emergency in NHS Lothian. Nurses and doctors have no room to flex as winter approaches. Let me address the implications of independence on migration into Scotland. First, let's nail some of the lies and focus on the fundamental truths that this Government is ignoring. Scotland has consistently taken below its population share of migrants compared to the rest of the UK. In the year ending June 2021, Scotland's net international migration was 18,900, below its population share of the 239,000 taken UK-wide at the same time. Only 4% of UK visas were issued to immigrants who choose to work in Scotland between 2016 and 2020, despite having around 8% of the population. Only 4% of those issues went to foreign workers who were intending to live in Scotland during that period. Net migration to the UK is at a record high despite what the SNP says. Total long-term immigration was estimated at 1.2 million in 2022, and immigration was 557,000. No, I don't have time. That means that migration continues to add to the population at a figure of 605,000. Put simply, England is a more desirable place to work for migrants compared to the SNP's Scotland. The pitfall for any future Scottish Government, should the disaster of independence ever befall us, won't be the challenge of attracting people to this country. It will be how we stop them leaving, particularly those industries and higher-rate taxpayers who contribute disproportionately to our public services. The SNP has made Scotland an unattractive place to move to. It is the highest tax part of the UK. Its world-leading education system now has record lows in maths and science scores. Professor Lindsay Paterson from the University of Edinburgh said, Scotland is now one of the worst-served education systems in the developed world for the quality of its statistical data. That's vandalism, it seems to me. Scotland is now 9 out of 10 attracting migrant workers to the UK. Even when people move around within Scotland, I will give way. John Swinney. I'm grateful to Mr Hoy for giving me one of the statistics he missed out was the record of Scotland in relation to the attraction of foreign direct investment in which Scotland delivers a performance second only to London and the south-east of England for many, many years. Why does Mr Hoy not recognise the attractiveness of Scotland as a place of foreign direct investment? Craig Hoy, I can give you the time for the intervention. If that foreign direct investment has been leveraged properly, why does Mr Swinney then think that the Scottish economy has underperformed the rest of the UK for a number of years? To go back to my main point, however, even when there is migration within Scotland, this SNP Government does not fairly reflect it and leaves, for example, councils such as East Lothian. The second fastest growing area in Scotland badly shortchanged when it comes to the local government settlement. This has put huge significant pressure on GPs and local health services in the area that I represent. In conclusion, this SNP Government is focused on the wrong priorities. When will it wake up and when will it recognise the day-to-day concerns of the Scottish people? When will it focus on the people's real priorities? Mr Hoy, I am sure to be followed by Rhoda Grant around six minutes. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I do want to start by declaring a personal interest in this. As a first-generation migrant to this country, coming to the UK from Pakistan as a wee girl, I look at how the UK immigration system treats people now with a deep sense of sadness. Of course, this is largely due to the treatment of those who come here either searching for a better life, new opportunities or just to join their families in my case. Like many of us here, I feel a sense of sadness for the loss of opportunities in an immigration system that has been tag-lined as a hostile environment for heaven's sake. I am relieved that Suella Braverman is no longer serving as UK Home Secretary. While I am already disappointed in some of the rhetoric coming from her successor, never have I known a more intentionally and dangerously divisive person to hold such a high office and that the Prime Minister allowed her to hold on to the office for so long, means that the damage that has been done is now on him. Presiding Officer, immigrants are woven into the rich tartan that makes our country what it is. Our early history was a melting pot of Britons, Picts, Angles, the Gales, the North and even more recent history has seen the face of Scotland enriched by substantial migration from Ireland in the 1800s, Pakistan and South Asia from around the 1960s and even more recently from the EU. Of course, these are just examples. People from all over the world live and contribute in our communities. We are a cultural mosaic and rightly proud of it. This attitude is not, however, reflected in the UK Government's overall policy agenda on immigration and bitterly I see no space for that to change under the current system. Indeed, Labour's invention of a hostile environment immigration system has simply been carried on by the Tories. Stammer has not indicated any substantial break from what the Tories have inflicted or are threatening to do. I know that many of us here are deeply anxious about tomorrow's Supreme Court verdict on Rwanda deportations and it is such a callous and cruel policy truly the worst of our politics but this paper, the paper published by the Scottish Government this month, demonstrates that clearly there is a different way. We have a problem in Scotland. Inward migration is the sole contributor to a population growth. And short of rather archaic drives to get families producing more children, the only way that we are going to see population growth, which we know is a major influence in economic growth, is to have more people from around the world come here to build this place home. The Tory amendment to the Government motion for this debate attempts to distract from the issues this paper raises. However, it is fair to talk about Scotland being a competitive place in attracting migrants to our country. While the detail must be fine-tuned, a commitment to visa routes through the live in Scotland route, Scottish connections visa, the work in Scotland visa and the family visa would certainly show our nation to be one welcoming and not hostile. If we had the power to do that, I suspect that Scotland would be taking more than our population share of migrants to the UK. My committee, the Equalities, Human Rights and Civil Justice Committee, which I convened last month published its report on the experience of asylum seekers in Scotland. As members will be aware that we spoke extensively to many organisations and I would include the Refugees for Justice, who have published their own paper on creating a new asylum system for Scotland. I also commend the work of Professor Alison Phipps and Sabir Zazi and many others for their involvement in this. Most importantly, the voices of asylum seekers and refugees themselves. The treatment of those who come here through necessity, not choice, those who are amongst the most vulnerable people is in itself harrowing to hear. They are thrust into a place of hopelessness, despondency and even fear. There is no legal route outside of very limited nations specific schemes for refugees to seek asylum in the UK only heightens the threat of the Tory Rwanda deportation plan. Let's be clear that Rwanda itself has a poor record on human rights. Just three months ago a woman was charged in Kigali wearing shameful dress. Two years ago a journalist was arrested and remains in unlawful detention. In the same year a YouTuber was jailed and serving 15 years for criticising the president. There appears to be an endless list of human rights violations, unlawful detentions and the disappearance of those who have dared to criticise the Government. Sending vulnerable asylum seekers to Rwanda is not the deed of a caring and compassionate nation. I am pleased therefore that the blueprint set out for an independent Scotland makes clear there would be safe legal routes for people to begin to claim asylum in our country. I commend to the mention of those who are displaced due to climate change an issue that is growing around the world. I do think that a humanitarian visa would play a significant role in the Scottish Government's commitment to climate justice, demonstrating a clear gap between the UK's agenda and Scotland. Presiding Officer, our strength is in our diversity. We must never stop weaving the tartan that makes our communities survive and thrive. I commend the work of the Scottish Government on this and hope to see much of it come to fruition in the near future. Thank you. I welcome the opportunity to debate ways of bringing in more workers and families into areas facing depopulation, but there needs to be a longer-term approach that looks at the fundamental issues causing depopulation in remote and island communities. Inward migration will only be successful in rural and remote communities if there is the infrastructure, housing and jobs to allow people to live there. The Scottish Government should prioritise using the powers that they have to attract businesses and retain families rather than focusing on the powers that they do not have, which, even if they have them, might not really change the dial at all with regard to rural depopulation. I am just going to mix in progress. Sadly, depopulation is increasing. In Helen Shear is projected to experience decline in population of 13.7 per cent between 2014 and 2039, which is the largest decrease for any council area in Scotland. According to the Scottish Fiscal Commission and National Records of Scotland, the population of the Highlands and Islands could decrease by up to 16 per cent in the next 20 years. It is unsustainable without government action. Fundamentally, depopulation needs local interventions. There has to be enough jobs, enough houses and reliable transport and, indeed, no access to services is causing people to leave those communities. I am grateful to the member for taking intervention. I am grateful for the concerns that we are reflecting in what we are trying to do. Will she welcome the addressing depopulation action plan that is forthcoming and has been worked on with input from local authorities such as the Highland Council? Can she clarify her views on our rural visa pilot, which will go some way to helping up the working-age population in those areas? Rhoda Grant, I can give you the time back. All those interventions are welcome, but the trouble is without the infrastructure we cannot expect inward migration far less people in those areas to stay, because by expecting migrants to fill that gap you are simply exploiting their vulnerability rather than providing them with vibrant communities. Those issues were addressed recently in Labour's Gallic Plan. We looked at focusing on providing good homes for rural communities, building resilient, reliable ferry networks, delivering a skilled workforce, supporting small businesses, ensuring that there is a transition to net zero that provides communities with energy benefits and obviously promoting Gallic especially within Scotland's creative industries. That recognises that when a community dies so does its language and we need to sustain those communities. All of those actions lay stronger foundations and people will then move in and stay in those communities and those points were also made by the Scottish Council for Development and Industry's report An Economy for All in Scotland. Instead we have a situation of 33 per cent of households in remote rural areas in extreme fuel poverty compared to 12 per cent of rural areas in 11 in the rest of Scotland. While fuel poverty is always unacceptable those figures show starkly the urban rural divide. Transport services are also abandoned in rural areas. We have no progress on the A9 or the A96 dualling. Transport Scotland itself estimated that £19 billion of goods are carried on the A9 between Perth and Inverness each year and sometimes all the 40 per cent of the traffic on the A9 is actually goods vehicles including large articulated lorries. The CalMac fleet does not fit for a purpose and so far in this year 2023 the fleet has had 65 performance to timetable rate of reliability in the Outer Hebrides with 11 cancellations. It is very much better with lifeline services being cut and for most rural communities buses are non-existence. It is little surprise that people are leaving. Presiding Officer, I cannot speak on a debate on migration without looking at illegal migration and especially human trafficking. Yet we have a Conservative Government in the UK legislating on migration in a way that provides a gift to those traffickers. The national referral mechanism that people who have been trafficked are referred to to have their situation verified takes far too long to process their applications and this delay leaves victims in danger from their traffickers. While they wait, their traffickers can seek revenge. The threat of deportation or indeed the Rwanda policy actually prevents them because they risk being categorised as illegal migrants with no rights or protections. The conditions in which they are kept while they wait also leaves them vulnerable. Children are being kept in hotels which is absolutely unacceptable. Loan chain children are even more vulnerable and over 400 are missing. What on earth has happened to those children? Traffickers force them to take on the danger of a channel crossing alone and pick them up easily at the other end. Sadly, only 12 per cent of police investigations into global trafficking lead to a conviction. Presiding Officer, this is something that we need to deal with. Inward migration can help us repopulate our declining communities and provide a much needed labour force. First and foremost, our response has to be one of compassion and humanity to migrants for our growing resilience in our own communities. Ms Grant, I now call to him fairly to be followed by Ross Greer around six minutes. Presiding Officer, in this chamber last week when the Government brought forward a motion to debate the issue of Scotland having an immigration policy that suited the needs of Scotland, the motion was challenged by both the Labour and Tory party and they are doing it again today. First of all, there is no doubt that there is a merit at the topic in Martin Whitfield that Martin Whitfield proposed. Homelessness is a scourge in our society which, the thankfully now sacked ex-home secretary, Aswella Braverman, thought she could eradicate by destroying the tents that homeless people had clearly made a lifestyle choice to live in. Naked callous Tory values on display yet again and I am sure that at least some of our colleagues over there are utterly ashamed to be associated with a political choice. Paul Sweeney. Does he not recognise the supreme irony of the Home Secretary's comments about the Homelessness being a lifestyle choice when it's home office policy that risks eminently putting over 1,400 people on the streets of Glasgow because of the expedited approach to resolving asylum claims in the city? I could not agree more. However, the motivation behind Martin Whitfield's amendment was as disappointing as it was glaring in its real agenda. We've always known that the Tories will put the union first that is in their very name. So there's no surprise that they would throw a tantrum at the mere mention of a debate in this Parliament to discuss an immigration policy for the benefit of Scotland. Because for them, only the big Parliament and Westminster that Stephen Kerr has now desperately trying to get himself elected to while he tells our First Minister he should know his place, it's there that they should get to decide how Scotland's immigration policy should work because, well, Presiding Officer, that's an argument they will have to justify the people that's certainly not for me. I said at the start of my contribution that a Labour attack in the Government's decision to debate how to improve Scotland's future was more surprising, but in reality is it? There the architects of schedule 5 part 1B of the 1998 Scotland Act that prevents the people of Scotland deciding our own constitutional future without the express permission of Westminster. There's an irony here though because it was in fact Henry McLeish who said during a select committee on Scottish affairs session in 1998 as the Scotland Act was being scrutinised and I quote I think it comes to the point that in 5, 10 or 50 years time that the United Kingdom will be a very different place constitutionally and in governmental terms. What I do believe is right is to leave it to the separate parts of the UK to work out their own particular destiny and yet they impose schedule 5 part 1B into the Scotland Act. Now Labour don't even want us debating the issue in this chamber that an issue that will add value to our economy, makers productive bring tax revenue in for vital public services and generally help to build the feel-good factor that a country needs especially when things have been absolutely trashed by the other unionists the Tories. Presiding Officer that is a far cry from the vision that Henry McLeish outlined that we should choose our own destiny, is it not? Scotland is renowned as a place that welcomes people with open arms and an invitation to join us to be part of our communities to contribute to society and to help us to build our economy and it is something we should be rightly proud of. That is in such stark contrast to the Braverman's Trumpian rhetoric that led to the far-right violence in the streets of London at the weekend. Having the ability to create laws in Scotland which allow us to continue to be a welcoming country as opposed to the alternative is essential to us for many reasons, Presiding Officer. In 2021, I did a political slot on channel 4 which highlighted the difficulties Persia, Berry and Fruit Farmer Peter Thompson had to get his blueberry crop picked. The true cost of Brexit is that Peter no longer grows those blueberries for commercial harvest in Scotland despite being one of the pioneers in bringing that fruit here in the first place. I also talked about the millions of pounds of veg that were plowed back in in Persia and Fife. That is the true cost of Brexit Britain. We know that social care, the NHS, tourism, the food and drink sector, hospitality and construction are all desperate for workers. All good skilled valued industries that help the health of our people, build their economy, all being held back because of a lack of workers and largely because of a hostile environment which refuses to recognise the value of those workers. Try telling a European-trained restaurant Simele that they are unskilled. Then I ask them to come here and work in our industry and I can tell you their answer because they are already saying, no thank you. These are just some of the issues we can do so much better on by having an immigration policy that suits our needs. The Living Scotland route will focus on those skills we need that will incorporate place-based elements to encourage a repopulating of working-age people in our remote and island communities. To pick up Rhoda Gansporg the Scottish Government have already decided that they are putting money into rural housing to make sure that that infrastructure is there. We will have a scheme to welcome the diaspora with a Scottish Connections visa, bringing the ancestry home. We will have seasonal workers visas and we will have family visas. Rhoda Grant. Does he not agree though that the Scottish Government's intervention on rural housing covers commuter areas, country towns as well as remote rural areas and how many does he actually think they will build in remote rural areas? I think the Scottish Government's record on building houses of 125,000 so far is exemplary compared to what the Labour-Lib Dem Coalition did before they were ousted from power many years ago. In short, we will have an immigration policy that suits our needs and will continue to be the welcoming place that we have always been. This latest paper produced by the Scottish Government demonstrating the vision that exists to make Scotland a wealthier, fairer, more welcoming place as a vital addition to the next stage of building that belief in ourselves and asking the question, independence. Why not, Scotland? Thank you, Mr Pearlie. I now call Ross Greer to be followed by out of the key around six minutes. Mr Greer. To be the kind of country which is so safe, secure and attractive that people want to live here is an immense privilege. To be in a position to offer sanctuary to those fleeing war, persecution and disaster is an immense privilege. To have a widely recognised international reputation as friendly and welcoming is an immense privilege. I think that that is a position that most people in Scotland would agree with. I actually think that it is a position that most people across the UK would agree with. Research into public opinion would certainly indicate that that is the case. But it could not be further from the approach which has defined UK immigration and asylum policy, not just under this current Tory Government, but for decades by the Governments which preceded it. Immigration policy should always recognise the inherent worth and rights of each individual. No human being is illegal and we are not just units of labour. The patch of land that we were born on and the state which governed it at the time should not determine the extent to which our human rights are respected. This building a new Scotland paper sets out a vision for an independent Scotland's migration and asylum systems which would respect those universal human rights. It would be a privilege to live in a country which lives up to those values. Scotland canon does welcome refugees and asylum seekers with open arms despite the barriers that the Home Office throws in our way like what Paul Sweeney has just mentioned about their deliberate destitution policies. We saw that welcoming when the Syrian resettlement scheme was launched and every local council in Scotland signed up almost immediately making it clear that they were ready and willing to take in far more Syrian refugees, particularly unaccompanied children, than the Home Office would allow. The immigration debate at Westminster has been defined by a race to the bottom. Since 2010, the Tory party has become increasingly radicalised and sadly Labour's UK leadership has more often than not felt the need to accept the premise of that hostility and at best compromise with it. At worse, they have tried to outdo the Tories. As we have seen recently with Rachel Reeve's statement, the problem with the current Home Office is that it isn't deporting people fast enough. I know that that isn't a perspective shared by many Labour members of this Parliament but it is the position that we will be asking people to vote for in next year's general election. Paul Kane quite rightly described the illegal migration act as pernicious so why has Keir Starmer refused to repeal it? Britain's new foreign secretary David Cameron pledged in 2010 that the UK's net migration figures would be reduced to the tens of thousands. What followed was a continuation of cruel and damaging escalation of cruel and damaging UK Government policies like the Kaplan skilled migration, minimum income thresholds and a ramping up of detensions and deportations. They are clearly not fast enough for Rachel Reeve's liking. The Home Office has shown us that they will go to any length to criminalise, punish and dehumanise vulnerable refugees and asylum seekers from dawn raids to prison-like detention centres like Dungavel that are entangled in reports of human rights abuses. Children forced to lie on the floor pretending to hold a rifle so that Home Office officials can decide which of them were likely to be the real former child soldiers. Thousands of other asylum seekers disappeared completely lost by the Home Office. LGBTQ asylum seekers forced to answer deeply invasive questions to prove their sexuality or gender. After damning reports about the abuse and humiliation faced by those who have come here seeking safety, Scotland can do so much better but there is no reason to believe that a more humane system can be achieved through Westminster. It is only with the powers of independence that we can establish a migration system that meets our needs. Immigration is not just a huge social good for Scotland. It is an absolute necessity for both economic sustainability and the continuing function of key public services. Free movement in Europe is one of this continent's greatest achievements. I think that it is a source of profound sadness to most of us in this Parliament that we have all lost that right, but that it has also resulted in acute skills shortages across various areas of Scotland. Our rural communities have felt that impact more than anyone else as have those in areas like Inverclyde that are facing some of the sharpest rates of depopulation. As an independent nation and a full member state of the European Union, we can regain the economic and social benefits that came with freedom of movement. As a country with full powers over our own migration system, we can welcome those from anywhere in the world who want to make this their home because it is a privilege to do so. It is a straightforward necessity for a country with an ageing population, fragile rural and coastal communities and acute shortages across key sectors and services. I spoke some years ago about the experience of those that I met on Lampedusa and Italian Island north of the Libyan coast, which is often the first point of arrival for refugees coming to Europe. I have seen the suffering that comes when nations like the UK refuse to provide safe routes to seeking asylum. I met one teenage boy whose friend had drowned right in front of him a few days before when he made that dangerous journey. A young girl who had been held in sexual slavery and was pregnant as a result. Another boy who was the first climate refugee I had ever met, his family's farm in Ghana was lost his desertification and he was forced on a journey which saw him held as a slave in Libya and then eventually made it to Lampedusa. I have said a few times now that to offer sanctuary is a privilege but it is also our responsibility given the UK's role in driving human rights abusers, propping up authoritarian regimes and directly engaging in conflicts like the one in Afghanistan. The vast majority of people in Scotland pro or anti-independence want this country to be a welcoming one. So I would say to colleagues like Craig Hoy who is not here at the moment but when Craig Hoy mentioned the need to provide safe routes where are the safe routes for the Afghans who worked with British soldiers for 20 years during that occupation? Where are the safe routes for the Afghan nurses, police officers who we abandoned to the Taliban? It's only with the powers of independence that we here in Scotland can achieve that vision of a welcoming nation that we can seize the opportunity and that we can hold that incredible privilege to make this a truly welcoming country. Thank you Mr Greer. I'm McEe to be followed by Alexander Stewart around six minutes. Thank you, Presiding Officer. I'd like somehow welcome this debate and the opportunity to speak in it because it's about the importance of migration to Scotland's economy and to our social and cultural fabric of our country. As has already been mentioned by the minister, much work has shown the economic value that migrants bring to Scotland. The FSB report on the impact of migrant businesses and the business start-up rate in migrant communities, twice that of the rest of the population. It also cements Scotland's place of outward-looking nation. Of course, we need to mitigate the damage caused by Brexit and UK Government's hostile environment to immigration. The history of Scotland, indeed, is the history of migration. In many of us, I'll have stories of ancestors that have come from near and far and it was very interesting to listen to Karen Adam's story and I wish her and her father well in finding out more about their background and certainly from my own situation of my eight great-grandparents only one was born in Scotland. I very much welcome the Scottish Government's building a new Scotland paper focused on what we would do to increase migration with the full powers of independence necessary to deliver Scotland's full potential economically and in many, many other aspects as well. It stands in sharp contrast to the UK Government approach, a Scottish Government approach that should remain dignified and principled. Data shows that more working age people come to Scotland from the rest of the UK, something that many on the Opposition benches fail to appreciate and recognise. It's certainly recognised in the Scottish Government motion and it's instructive to note that both the Conservative and Labour amendments delete that reference. I think neither of them can bring themselves to welcome some Scottish good news which I think is very telling and very sad. However, we do need to recognise the lower number of international migrants that find their way to Scotland. I suspect that that is largely as a consequence of international migrants going to places where they already have cultural family language and other links and therefore gravitating towards pre-existing communities. I want to ask if I would have of the Scottish Government perhaps to do some analysis on this to understand not just what the data shows but what we can do to address that particular challenge. Of course it's necessary to devolve powers before we inevitably get the full powers of independence so that we can put in place a migration policy as soon as possible that afflicts Scotland's economic and wider needs. I feel to understand why the Labour Party on this aspect, as we had in the fair work debate last week, doesn't want Scotland to have the powers, this Parliament to have the powers to be able to do what is right for if a Scotland intends waiting and hoping that a UK Government, Labour Government if it happens would do something that would benefit Scotland's economy rather than the rest of the UK. What I would say is that we do need a vision in terms of what Scotland's population should look like. The paper, as I said, is very welcome and addresses everything it needs to in terms of where we want to get to but we need to get down to the brass tacks and nuts in boats to understand what Scotland's population could be in terms of its size compared to other population growths that we have seen in our neighbours. 100 years ago Scotland's population was broadly similar to where it is now norway's population has indeed doubled over that period of time. What is the potential for Scotland's population and where do we want people to support our rural environment? Paul Swinney. I also note that during the 19th century Scotland's population increased by over 140 per cent so clearly there are historical precedents for us performing much better. That is a very welcome intervention. I wasn't aware of that particular statistic but I think it absolutely shows what is possible and how closely that is tied to economic success as well as strong Scottish economy will of course attract people from all around the world but what I would also say is that we have a whole Government approach to be ready for an increase in migration. I welcome the work that has been done to providing Scotland a welcome home for a disproportionate number of Syrian and Ukrainian refugees but we should continue that work and we should make sure that we have in particular in the housing provision and in particular in rural areas provision in place, infrastructure in place so that people that do come here we have that ready for them and that is lined up with our understanding of where we want Scotland's population growth trajectory to be in the coming years and decades. The reality is that we can do much more with the powers that we do have notwithstanding the fact that to address the problem fully we do need the full powers of independence so there is much more work that we can do to attract more people, yet more people from the rest of the UK. The data already shows that Scotland is a very attractive location so we need to understand in more detail what we can do to bring more people in the short term from the rest of the UK particularly those international migrant communities as I have mentioned. There has been a mention already of the Home Office's decision to batch process refugee and asylum cases in Glasgow and of course that has put significant short term pressure on the council and elsewhere to deal with that but I think it shows that there is scope for Scotland and asylum seekers from the rest of the UK if we were in a position where we had the services in place to be able to deal with that. Clearly there are challenges in terms of lack of borrowing powers to be able to address that fully but I believe that is something that we should focus on. In conclusion, Presiding Officer I absolutely welcome the paper and the issues that it addresses positioning Scotland as a welcoming country for migrants and I think that I would ask the Scottish Government to understand the data on international migration and what we can do to do that to attract more migrants from the rest of the UK to continue to push of course for more powers and to understand and a joined up Government approach what we need to do to have services including particular housing in place to welcome more migrants as and when we are able to attract them to Scotland. Thank you very much Presiding Officer. Thank you Ms McKee. I now call Alexander Stewart to be followed by Claire Baker. Mr Stewart. Thank you Presiding Officer. It is disappointing that the release of yet another taxpayer funded independence paper has been and led to valuable parliamentary time being taken up today when we could have been debating on issues that are priorities for example to families in Scotland at present. However, the fact that the debate is taking place will not be surprising to anyone familiar with the tactics of this Green-U-SMP Government. As I've said before I will be supporting the amendment in the name of Donald Cameron. Presiding Officer, the SNP's latest independence paper follows a very familiar pattern of highlighting certain challenges facing Scotland. They then blame them on the current UK Government and pretend that these powers would go away if they only had and the problems go away if they only had the powers of independence. We have seen this all before, Presiding Officer. Back in 2013 the independence white paper Scotland's future, the SNP claimed that Scotland needed a points based immigration system. They also claimed that they wanted to reintroduce the post study work visa and there was not enough international students who were able to choose Scotland as a place to study. Ten years on we now find that the UK has a points based immigration system. The post study work visa has been reintroduced and the number of international students at Scottish universities has increased by over 40 per cent. As we've heard already today, total net migration is now double what it was a decade ago. Happy to do so. Does it not bother Alexander Stewart that it actually takes a Westminster Government to make those decisions when Scotland needed to make those decisions 10 years ago but weren't in a position to do so? Alexander Stewart? I thank Jim Fairlie for the comment. We have heard and we continue to hear from the SNP what their hopes and aspirations are for but the people of Scotland have chosen not to have that decision and as I say you can continue to bring papers forward you can continue to try and smoke screen the situation but the people of Scotland do not want independence and as I say we will continue to see it continue to be not a priority for the people of Scotland as it continues so given all of that the new paper that we've seen talks about what the SNP would like to see and of course the paper contains no talk about what has been achieved to date the obvious truth is that the paper is less concerned about finding solutions to real problems and more concerned about stoking political grievances and we've seen these political grievances many times in the past time and time again the Scottish Government not yet the Scottish Government's new paper talks about the problems and claims that they would all be fixed if only they had the powers that they do not yet possess for example the Government's new strategy talks about the importance of seasonal workers indeed the document highlights some of the challenges that have been happening and we know that the UK makes up about 11% of seasonal agriculture workers the UK Government is and has been tackling the issue when they brought in the seasonal agriculture scheme that started as a pilot and that then brought thousands of individuals to us the scheme was extended eventually Mr Swinney but not yet the scheme was extended to 30,000 workers it was an extended to 40,000 workers in 2022 and for 2223 the scheme has been extended to 55,000 workers depending on the demands Mr Swinney I'm grateful to Mr Stewart for giving me he sits with me at a number of meetings with the national farmers union in Perthshire where we hear from the national farmers union the chronic shortage of agricultural labour despite all that he talks about and although some improvements have been welcome we are still lagging behind in this sector for employment why does Mr Stewart not recognise the weakness of the solutions put in place by the UK Government and recognise this Parliament could do something better Alexander Stewart I thank Mr Swinney and Mr Swinney does recognise that we do attend similar meetings but Geoffrey has talked about that it is now providing enough visas to meet the sector workforce and there have been and there continue to be there continue to be 6000 workers have currently come into Scotland each year through the scheme many of them have come to areas within Fife and Perth and Cynros that follow within my region that I represent and the constituency that Mr Swinney represents this scheme has been key to addressing some of the labour shortages but the SNP like to blame the shortages on Brexit on that many times before but in reality the problem is not specific to the UK we have seen that across Europe there are many countries that are just as badly affected so it's not unsurprising that the solutions that the Scottish Government would rather talk about don't deal with the detail they don't deal with the aspects they don't deal with what is trying to be achieved they only talk about the problems that are being created by the UK Government time is moving on so in conclusion the last point demonstrates the biggest problem with the SNP's new paper is that it is talking about what Scotland can't do rather than talk about what Scotland can do the government's new strategy talks about the importance of making Scotland an attractive and welcoming country however the mistake in making this talk about is the powers that they have already instead of complaining about the powers that they lack it is time that this government used the powers that it has to make Scotland the attractive dynamic destination to live and work and that it truly can be and the potential that it does have I support the amendment in the name of Donald Cameron thank you Mr Stewart I now call Claire Baker who is joining us remotely to be followed by Kate Forbes Ms Baker thank you I want to start by recognising a huge contribution made to our economy to businesses, to public services and to our society by the many people from across the world who have chosen to come to Scotland we want to make our country not just a welcoming place for migrants but one which supports them and provides for them as it should for everyone who lives and works here as our amendment today makes clear the rhetoric of the UK Government on migrants is unacceptable it is also regrettable that the UK Government has not been willing to engage with the Scottish Government when it comes to previous proposals regarding a Scottish visa and the development of a tailored policy within the UK immigration system but that engagement however frustrating is still required and both Governments need to find a way of working constructively rather than continuing to pursue division in terms of the approach of the Scottish Government to migration prior to the current paper we have obviously worked with Humza Yousaf MSP and Ben Macpherson MSP on immigration policy where they did seek consensus on common ground they were involved in a process which recognised the benefits of working together as a Parliament so we could speak with a common voice to engage with the UK Government today I have to say as a change of tone and while ministers such as Ben Macpherson did not hide his preference for an independent immigration system he did engage positively with the chamber and I regret today's more divisive debate that doesn't seek consensus on an issue that I think we do all care about we want an immigration system which works for all parts of the UK the current approach is not able to take account of the distinct needs that we have in Scotland on other parts of the UK the Scottish Government should find a more constructive discussion with a UK library Government who would reform and strengthen the Migration Advisory Committee with input from across the UK working to develop a visa system that works for all parts of the UK we have lost freedom of movement but we can, I believe, create a fair immigration system which regains the benefits of free movement for our economy and society the most recent figures show Scotland's population is slowing and that compares unfavourably to other parts of the UK the declining trends in birthrate continue and migration remains the sole driver of population growth we know there are a number of factors which have affected both population numbers in the long term and the population challenges that Scotland faces it is vital that we develop a positive response which takes account of those including the concentration of populations around towns and cities access to fertility treatments and barriers that result in older people who want to keep working not being able to do so population changes are a huge challenge for local councils whether the impact of depopulation or of rapid population growth while we argue for a migration system that better reflects the distinct needs of our country we also need to have an improved local response to supporting population changes in our communities and that means properly funding our local authorities so that we have the vital infrastructure housing, planning and education in place recognition of Scotland's demographic challenge is not new and it's not specific to Scotland if our own response is focused on immigration we are competing with other countries that are facing their own pressures when we talk of an ageing population we should also remember that our population is fitter and healthier in the past and with that there are benefits to offering more flexible working options for those who want to pursue them regardless of their age that feeds into the wider importance of offering quality secure employment to a working age population that's more flexible to individual circumstances so that people are not excluded from employment alongside immigration we need to look at other ways to address population and decline and to use the powers we have to focus on depopulation and poor economic growth including through the provision of quality housing and employment opportunities attracting people to live and work here and the Scottish Government do have targets to attract people from across the UK to come to Scotland means making sure that the services people need are also being delivered such as healthcare and education and providing further services which are under pressure it's about providing proper resources for them to support our communities I will close with a brief mention on societal attitudes and the importance of continuing work in that area the Government's paper refers to the survey on public attitudes to immigration by immigration policy Scotland which was published in September of this year the survey shows that while attitudes towards immigration in Scotland with the majority, some 59% of people believing immigration has had a positive impact in Scotland the figure believing it has had a positive impact on their local area is not as high as that that sits at 48% and while 38% of respondents thought that immigration should be increased 62% either wanted to remain as it is or would actually like to see it decrease so Scotland is a place where we want everyone to feel welcome we want to encourage people to choose to work here and for them to be supported and welcomed in our communities part of that is doing all we can to highlight and appreciate the contribution of immigrants to our society and I think although there is division afternoon that is something the chamber traditionally is very good at and we can speak collectively on that issue but we do have to recognise there are still challenges and some attitudes within our communities and their ability to welcome people to address those Thank you, Presiding Officer Thank you, Ms Baker and I now call Kate Forbes who will be the last speaker before we move to closing speeches The primary reason that I think we should be discussing this issue today is because it is actually in the hypothetical that I find any hope I think our immigration approach in this country has descended into such a state that it is incumbent on all of us to consider what we can do to improve the system improve the policy and improve our approach to those who seek a new life in this country and I wanted to start with what Claire Baker said because she indicated that there was areas for consensus and that it was important to retain that consensus I think that's absolutely right I think that the frustration for all of us in the Scottish Parliament is that irrespective of that consensus we have not been able to see progress. In fact over the last seven years where I've been part of many debates on immigration policy we've actually seen that policy get worse rather than get better because it's a day where all parties in this chamber could agree on things like the post-study work visa but actually over the course of the last few years particularly as the policy under the Conservative UK Government has declined considerably we have seen things get worse rather than get better so I wanted to outline three ways in which I think we absolutely need all of policy and of the system and at the moment I cannot see how that can proceed with the current constitutional arrangement I think the only hope is by devolving the full immigration policy and approach to the Scottish Government and to the Scottish Parliament as Paul Sweeney said there is a means that that can be done it works in Canada and I see no reason why it cannot work in the United Kingdom as it currently is established so three primary concerns the first is that it is currently impossible for there to be safe routes right now for those that really need it last week I had the privilege of meeting with a number of people from Syria in the last few weeks they have become British citizens I spoke to them heard their story tried to understand how they had reached the UK and what the process had been all of them are currently working they are contributing in some guise many of them are working for charities and I was absolutely taken aback that all of them had actually arrived in the UK some of them had PhDs a professor of science some of them had been chief executives of fairly substantial businesses and organisations none of them were working in a way that utilised the full extent of their skills right now and meeting with them they were delighted and grateful for the opportunity to chat but they had arrived many of them in 2017-18 onwards if they were to arrive with a Rwanda policy in place I would not have had the conversation that I had this week they would not have been contributing to society they would not be utilising the skills that they have and I find it absolutely baffling that in a country where we recognise the challenges with our economy the challenges with our public services and with the tight labour market why we would be pulling up the drawbridge and not even allowing those that need it safe access to the UK the other two points is the fact that even where there are legal routes the system is designed to destroy last week we published figures about the number of children caught up in the system in 2020 there were over 1,000 who waited for over a year to be processed by last year that had increased to 4,100 and the figures for those waiting five years or more are also on that upward trajectory if you think of what a year or five years means for a child for their education for their emotional development for their social development for their stability being caught up in a system that is clearly unworkable and is the product of a hostile approach to immigration suggests that even ignoring the policy the system is horrendous and my last comment is slightly more brief but over the last few weeks all eyes have been on war the warfare unfolding in Gaza and before Gaza it was on Ukraine we've looked at the war unfolding in Yemen and Sudan time and time again it's children that are caught up as victims of war perpetrated by others and I look certainly at that unfolding and feel an enormous sense of helplessness I think there is an opportunity however as our First Minister has said to do something even if that is just to offer asylum and offer a new home for those who desperately need it I think we are privileged beyond measure in this country when all is said and done and actually out of that privilege and out of that blessing and out of that wealth we have an opportunity to offer hope and to offer help to those who cannot find it anywhere else right now Thank you Ms Forbes and we now move to closing speeches and I call on Faisal Chowdry to close on behalf of Scottish Labour Faisal Chowdry Thank you Deputy Presiding Officer Firstly I would like to apologise to the chamber and the ministers for my slightly later arrival to this afternoon debate Deputy Presiding Officer Scotland is greatly benefited by migration as the Minister Jamie Hepburn rightly noted Migration bring a set of fresh prospective skills and experience to shetling our economy The food and drink industry along has greatly benefited from the migration and delicious cuisines which have become family favourites in Scotland however many migrants sadly feel unsupported in Scotland and the economy may come under strain if aggressive Tory migration policies continue Cockup Steward pointed out her disappointment at the current hostile environment of the immigration and asylum system and as a first generation migrant as well I joined her in deploying this In recent years we have seen an increase in Westminster's anti-migration ideology and inflammatory languages such as references to wave of illegal migrants This fear of the others aesthetic strokes racism and deprives the UK of the benefits migration brings When the UK Government revealed plans to ban foreign postgraduate students on non-research courses from bringing dependence to the UK I raised concern that this could impact the attraction of talent to the Scottish economy We must welcome migrants to Scotland and provide an environment which allows them to succeed in Scotland's economy To ensure we can do this we must fully plan for a skill-based needs in industries I remind the chamber at this point of my register of interest as a stakeholder in a licensed restaurant I'm glad the Scottish Government is recognising in this paper that the businesses are struggling because they do not have enough stuff compounded by Brexit and Covid. However the Scottish Government must do more with their current powers to proactively help businesses in Scotland now rather than discussing independence once again As both Donald Cameron and Alex Cole Hamilton rightly pointed out this waste of civil servants time and taxpayers' money could have gone to tackling the biggest issues facing Scotland right now Instead the Scottish Government has left Scotland lacking the skills that it needs As I need to progress As as Paul O'Kane noted it should be doing more now to plan for skill in the Scottish economy Deputy Presiding Officer Scotland voted to remain in the UK Mr Trudeau it's right to say that we should always plan for the skills needs of the Scottish population first of all I hope we reflect on the fact that Scotland has the highest proportion of any population in Europe in terms of higher graduate level qualifications We would not also fundamentally reflect on the fact that we could upskill the entirety of the population as much as we like but what we actually struggle with in Scotland is a shortage of people Surely we could do better with an independent approach to immigration I think we've heard the arguments many many times and I haven't heard any positive arguments on independence from the SNP yet that the power SNP have there's got to be a plan and I haven't seen a positive plan yet the power SNP have right now should be implement that Deputy Presiding Officer Scotland voted to remain in the UK the Scottish Government should respect this and work to support the nation in every way devolution allows them to we are proud of the nation of diversity and it is clear why many people move to Scotland for the rest of the UK this is a great sign for welcoming talent in Scotland however it is important to emphasise that pride in our nation should not lead to isolation we should prioritise greater co-operation opportunities and sharing of skills between Scotland and the rest of the UK Scotland must welcome workers from the rest of the UK as the rest of the UK should welcome Scottish workers we cannot be isolated in our policies and rhetoric instead we must ensure co-operation and share opportunities for migrants and all workers across the UK for with shared opportunities can come shared prosperity that is what a Labour Government would bring to you ensure that our immigration system post-EU works for all nations and regions in the UK as my colleague Paul O'Cain highlighted a UK Labour Government would do this by threatening the Migration Advisory Committee with appropriate input from across the UK Scottish Labour is also committed to ensuring that skills bodies in Scotland and across the UK are consulted to ensure industry needs are met in the economy is supported the Scottish Government should be doing that now to ensure we have a strong economy with well-satisfied and skilled sectors the SNP claims to want to address population decline through migration yet they are failing to use powers they already have to address causes to deep population and poor economic growth such as creating good quality housing and stable well-paid jobs a Labour Government would ensure we have a progressive welcoming immigration system in Scotland with concrete plans for fulfilling skills-based needs to build a stronger fairer Scottish economy for all Thank you I now call on Rado Fraser to close on behalf of the Scottish Conservatives Mr Fraser Thank you Deputy Presiding Officer We'll have to start by echoing what both Donald Cameron and Paul O'Cain said at the start of this debate is a great pity that Donald Cameron has not served the matter to Westminster This is a time we could have spent debating the track record of the Scottish Government the track record on helping to grow the Scottish economy on stewarding the NHS on the education system even on the conduct of the health secretary that Craig Hoy referred to a host of other issues I will on a second debate of this Parliament perhaps, because they are so ashamed of their record in government I agree with the fantastic if we did not have to talk about an immigration system that worked for Scotland because in that situation we would already have one and is it not ashamed that the UK Government has failed to deliver that? I am going to come on and explain in some detail why that is a fundamentally wrong point if the minister will bear with me but, once again, we are debating the hypothetical event of independence we know independence is not around the corner we know it's not about to happen because people in Scotland don't want it even people in the SNP don't believe independence is going to happen it wasn't that long ago that our colleague, Ash Regan who's not, I don't think, in the chamber was standing to be SNP leader now she's left the SNP party and joined ALBA because she doesn't believe are serious about delivering independence so even people in the SNP don't think independence is going to happen I'll give way to Mr Cole-Hamilton I'm grateful to Murdo Fraser for giving way. Does he recognise, as I do that this is safe ground for the Government to bring debates on because everything else in our public sector is on fire at the moment? Of course, Mr Cole-Hamilton is correct they don't want to discuss their track record they want to discuss what other Governments are doing not in their power I'll give way to the minister Minister Jamie Hepburn Can the member square the circle of saying that this Government isn't committed to independence while simultaneously complaining about the fact that we brought forward the debate on our sixth prospectus paper on independence? Both cannot be through Murdo Fraser The problem is the Government is wasting its time and our time debating these matters because we know independence is not going to happen, it's wasting our time wasting our money producing these papers wasting our money on all the civil servants preparing these papers wasting our money on the minister's salary I like the minister, I enjoy debating with him but I'm afraid he's in the wrong job imagine if he could deploy his talents on something more useful than a project that's not going to happen namely independence so what a pity we're spending our afternoon on this issue but let me agree with some things that I agree of the value that immigration can bring if immigration is properly controlled and managed it can bring great value to a country we've got a proud history of welcoming immigrants into Scotland ways of immigration in the 19th century from Ireland in the early 20th century we had members of the Jewish population came from Eastern Europe we had immigrants from Italy we saw immigrants from the new Commonwealth from Pakistan, from Bangladesh we had Hong Kong Chinese more recently members of the Polish community and much more recently people from Ukraine coming here and being welcomed and enriching our society both economically and culturally and that has been a positive for Scotland but we still of course have skills shortages and members who made this point are absolutely right so in sectors across Scotland whether it's hospitality it might be the care sector or it might be agriculture that's not unique to the Scotland or the UK just this morning I had a meeting with the new German consul general for Scotland she was telling me that in Berlin where she has just been there are bars and restaurants that are only open for a limited number of days per week because they cannot get the staff that's not a consequence of Brexit clearly and it's the same in other European countries so we're all facing these challenges as Alexander Stewart I think fairly said in his contribution we're facing these challenges around skills shortages and simply to say that this is only an issue of immigration policy is to see a very narrow part of the picture but let me tackle this key proposition which is at the basis of what we've heard from the minister and from the SNP benches that UK immigration policy is holding Scotland back I'm going to develop this point I'll get away to Mr Stewart in a second because let's just look at exactly in terms of immigration immigration into the UK today is at record levels net inward migration over 600,000 over the past year and these numbers have doubled since Brexit and indeed if you look at it I think it was Craig Hoyer reminded us about the visa figures in the period between 2016 and 2020 no not just now let me make this point I'll give away in a second the UK visas issued to immigrants coming in to the UK only 4% were issued to people who wanted to come and work in Scotland our population share would be more than double that but only 4% so the key question is this it's not that people are not coming in to the UK they're coming in in record numbers the key question is why are so few coming to Scotland now Mr Stewart has an answer to that question I'll give away to him I thank Mr Fraser for giving away and I've just caught sight of a letter that former Home Secretary Soella Breverman has sent to the Prime Minister about one of the reasons why she is glad to leave the UK Government and one of those reasons is to reduce overall legal migration is set out in the 2019 manifesto through interaglia reforming the international students route and increasing salary thresholds on work visas in other words Ms Breverman has left Government because she doesn't think that the UK migration policy is tight enough we think it's too tight and we want change does he agree with Ms Breverman or does he agree with us that there should be much more flexibility Mr Fraser Mr Stewart but you've just demolished your own argument because the former Home Secretary has left the UK Government because the immigration figures are higher than she would have liked that shows that we have a UK Government delivering immigration into the United Kingdom to meet the needs of our economy the problem is that you haven't answered this point and nobody on the SNP benches has answered this point why is it that Scotland is not attracting more of these migrants to come here I suspect there's a variety of reasons some of it's to do with the economy some of it's to do with economic opportunity where they see economic opportunity and prospects Scotland, as Donald Cameron reminded us is the highest tax part of the United Kingdom that's highly likely to attract people who want to come here and be successful and establish careers there may also be cultural issues Ivan McKee made I thought some very fair points in his contribution around some of the cultural issues people who come from migrant communities want to come and settle in places where there are likely to be from a similar background because we don't have that many migrant communities in Scotland we are perhaps lacking Ivan McKee I just want to get myrd of phasor comments on what the reason is that more people, significantly more people working age people move from the rest of the UK to Scotland every year then move in the opposite direction clearly that's nothing to do with tax myrd of phasor maybe to do with the cultural issues but the net figures overall show that Scotland is doing worse than every region of England apart from the north west he's no point in shaking his head look at the facts, the net figures show that overall migration we are doing worse than every part of England apart from the north west on cultural well okay but you better have a fact absolutely have a fact, the data is that on average over the last five years seven thousand more people have moved in the opposite direction that's a fact that's the point Mr McKee wasn't listening to my point overall net migration into Scotland from all places is at the lowest level compared to any part of England apart from the north west that's an issue that the Scottish Government needs to address on cultural issues I met and there was an event on the migration minister remember this an event earlier in the year where we met some Hong Kong Chinese now in terms of Hong Kong Chinese we've seen tens of thousands of visas issued Hong Kong Chinese to come into the UK again relatively few have come in to Scotland one of the interesting cultural issues they raised was the education system so children in Hong Kong are education according to the English system of education so those who came to Scotland were surprised to find Scotland has a different education system so instead of setting A levels and studying the English curriculum and studying the Scottish curriculum and they weren't aware of that and that is a cultural issue that may act as a barrier well goodness sake I've been quite generous Mr Fraser but I think Mr Fraser has also been generous in taking a number of interventions but he might perhaps be looking at bringing his remarks to customers I only make the point that that is a cultural issue we need to be aware of and these cultural barriers that Mr McKee referred to we need to be conscious of and the Scottish Government needs to be considered so the facts are that it is not UK immigration policy that is stopping people coming to Scotland there are other issues at stake and therefore simply talking about rewriting immigration policy isn't going to solve the problem and as we tackle the issue of economic opportunity and tackle the cultural issues I've returned to Presiding Officer so I'm sorry to close Presiding Officer we didn't have a broader debate about the issues of demography in Scotland about the issues of skills shortages in the economy about issues that might touch on rural depopulation about rural housing about ferries that Rhoda Grant and others referred to instead this debate has been framed around the SNP's constitutional obsession it's been framed around independence to me that's a disappointment because it's missed an opportunity to have a well rounded debate about issues that we would agree on more we disagree on but it's a pity that wasn't allowed to happen and I'm pleased to support the amendment in name of Donald Cameron Thank you Mr Fraser and I now call on Minister Emma Roddy to close on behalf of the Scottish Government if the minister could take us to decision time at 5 o'clock that would be most helpful Minister There have been a lot of contributions today on various aspects of the paper that we recently published but I want to go back a moment to the issues that we're facing and that the Scottish Government is trying to address here Scotland is facing the largest fall of working age people of any of the UK nations we need migration policy suited to the needs of Scotland's communities the current system does not allow us to address labour market shortages or depopulation we need more powers to address this fully as per our clear mandate from the people of Scotland and we have laid out exactly what we would do with the powers of a normal independent country and in the paper we react to current challenges population decline, humanitarian crises and as co-cab Stewart pointed out people who are being displaced by climate change but we do this while sticking to our principles of ensuring dignity, fairness and respect for those that we support we are also trying to work within the system in which we're currently stuck constructively suggesting improvements down south which have strong backing from communities and industry across Scotland those attempts to encourage the UK Government to improve the situation have been ignored it is over a year since the Scottish Government published our rural visa pilot proposal dismissed within a few hours I know from speaking with business owners in rural areas including last week with seafood and hospitality industry leaders in Fort Augustus that the current system is resource intensive and does not work for those coming here to fill vacancies or the employers themselves the time it takes, the cost of the process and navigating the complicated landscape can put even desperate businesses off recruiting from overseas and to Murdo Fraser's point at the end of his speech there I do remember the event that we both attended and the issues raised by Hong Kongers who if I remember rightly one of them said one of the big issues here is that Scotland is not promoted within the current routes they did not know the difference between services in Scotland and the rest of the UK they also didn't know what Scotland had on offer to them so that to me is an issue with the current system well who's fault is that it's the fault of the person who's in charge of the system the government in charge of the system and we are here proposing a different way of doing things these businesses certainly John Swinney I'm grateful to the minister for giving way doesn't she identify a slight contradiction in the sedentary comments from Murdo Fraser a moment ago that in relation to the promotion of Scotland overseas the very people that want to curtail the ability of the Scottish Government to promote Scotland overseas are Mr Fraser and his cohort in the United Kingdom Government Minister I think that's absolutely bang on from John Swinney there I'm really confused actually sitting here listening to the Tories criticise us for bringing forward proposals of vision for a better Scotland and then asking why we've not made a better Scotland well because we're not independent yet and we keep having to go to the Tories Westminster asking them to do things and unfortunately being ignored many of whom are based in rural and island areas who rely on sectors like agriculture fisheries, hospitality these businesses are struggling the ending of free movement and the hostile environment changed and damaged the ability of people who keep these sectors and these communities going to be able to come to Scotland and contribute and as Kate Forbes pointed out many migrants including refugees and asylum seekers are highly skilled we are missing out I very much enjoyed last week meeting with the women behind talent beyond boundaries who match these skilled people with employment routes into the UK now the work that they do is incredible but it should be work that we as a Government who want more people to live and work here do to support people and match them to the best possible life that we can offer them and the best contribution that they can make to Scotland that's why we have proposed new routes including those available to employers and workers in an independent Scotland and I hope that the contrast that provides with the current situation alongside that in other building and new Scotland papers will help to inform people of the challenges that we want to be able to fix as an independent country and how we propose to do that our vision is clear the Tory Government unfortunately is also clear that people listening to this debate made of Labour's position but if one of them could explain it to me I'd be very grateful Foisle childry challenged us to set out a positive vision for an independent Scotland and then criticised us for publishing one I'm not sure how Paul O'Kane managed to square in one speech rubbishing the Scottish Government for respecting our mandate from the people of Scotland to set out what we would do with the powers of an independent country on here and then delivering a party political broadcast on behalf of the UK Labour Party to criticise us for putting forward an alternative vision and then also asking what is the Scottish Parliament here to do if not mitigate well, Presiding Officer I have higher hopes for Scotland than that and it is miserable it is miserable but unsurprising to hear that yet again Labour does not Paul O'Kane The minister is actively misrepresenting my contributions the point is we have a Tory Government who I absolutely agree with what has been said in terms of their attitude towards migration in this country and I've said that throughout my remarks the point is the Scottish Parliament is here to take action why can she not answer the point from just right Scotland but why the Government have done nothing in terms of mitigating the impacts regardless of what happens tomorrow and will she support Labour's principles that I outlined in my speech which will see a reformed immigration system in this country The Scottish Government remains absolutely committed to mitigating the worst impacts of the illegal migration act unfortunately we do not yet have the details of how that act is going to be implemented but I look forward to working with Scottish Labour on our newfound consensus on this matter Members also challenged our priorities and I would point out that it is possible to care about more than one thing at once but also to remind members that this issue is about the cost of living crisis it is about recovery in our NHS and it is about local services people are needed to keep all of these things going working aged people we are putting our money where our mouth is on currently devolved issues our forthcoming addressing population action plan is an example of the approach that the Scottish Government and partners are taking already around population attraction and retention I'm working very closely with local authorities, businesses and individuals across Scotland to identify the main drivers of local depopulation and find ways to tackle them many members raise the issue of housing in rural areas which the chamber will know is an issue and why we've committed to building 10% of our affordable housing targets in rural and island areas and it's why we're tackling two high levels of second home ownership and residential buildings being used to promote unsustainable levels Minister, if you might just give me a moment can I just ask members, while the minister is closing, if we could just put conversations to one side Minister The Conservatives want to pretend that it's only house building and we'll vote against all of our other efforts to make sure that houses are being used as homes in these same areas if population decline were simply about how many houses there are in an area population would not be declining houses are being snapped up by folk who have no intention of living in them and it would be nice for once to hear some nuance in the Tory approach to facing up to that issue and to Rhoda Grant's point we have to be honest with ourselves that even if every young person currently living in a rural and island community stayed and worked where they are it would not be enough we have an ageing population often more so in these rural and island communities and a falling birth rate migration is a key part not the only part but a key part in the effort to tackle de-population it cannot be and is not the only thing that we are doing and of course as set out in the earlier building a new Scotland paper on economy our intention would be to genuinely build a new Scotland using our new fiscal powers to put in place a fund of up to £20 billion in place of the first decade of independence which could of course include house building and other infrastructure improvements mentioned so members worry that this is our only effort to tackle de-population should be reassured that this is not the case there is of course as Karen Adam so empathetically pointed out a humanitarian side to these proposals too we recognise the trauma and harm that has been inflicted on people unnecessarily both by the situations that they have come here to flee but also by the processes which are more complicated harsh and cold than they need to be like those that cocavstria discussed applying no recourse to public funds to people who are also not allowed to work is as nonsensical as it is inhumane people who could be economically active and who don't need to be living in destitution should be supported not punished for a situation that they did not choose we would not apply no recourse to public funds to asylum seekers and we would allow them to work ensuring a human rights based approach and upholding our international obligations moving back to the UK government's illegal migration act this is just another example of legislation within the current system just right Scotland has described it as a ticking time bomb for asylum seekers in Scotland and Rhoda Grant was correct to raise concerns around this and the difficulty that it presents local services and the Scottish Government to meet obligations to support victims of human trafficking we are clear that the UK Government must provide a clear plan for its delivery and all four nations must be engaged a humane approach to immigration not only do we require migration to keep up our working age population and not only does failing to help people cost more in the long run as Faisal Childry pointed out but we cannot ignore the incredible contribution that new Scots make to our communities culture and country this goes well beyond economic activity many refugees and new Scots in rural and island areas have kept school roles up open cafes such as the much loved Helmys and Bute in now Glasgow and we encourage our collective global outlook the Scottish Government is working cross portfolio but also through our forthcoming human rights bill to create this human rights culture that cannot be fully achieved while some people are having the rights held out of reach we want a Scotland that treats everyone with dignity, fairness and respect that should not be too much to ask but as is clear from the UK Government's response to our proposals to Labour's failure to do anything but follow the Tory votes we are going to need independence to make it a reality Thank you That concludes the debate on building a new Scotland migration to Scotland after independence and it's now time to move on to the next item of business and there are three questions to be put as a result of today's business and can I remind members that if the amendment in the name of Donald Cameron is agreed to the amendment in the name of the amendment 11237.1 in the name of Donald Cameron which seeks to amend motion 11237 in the name of Jamie Hepburn on building a new Scotland migration to Scotland after independence be agreed are we all agreed the Parliament is not agreed therefore we will move to vote and there will be a short suspension to allow members to access digital voting