 It's a pleasure to be here. I'll see if I can share my screen and find my file that I was Hope you can that's gonna come up soon. He will it will sometimes teams is a little bit tricky as we all know Can you see that? Okay. Yes. Yes, we can we can thank you very Okay, well, thank you very much and the the picture behind my head is actually Funa footy the capital of to value so I want to I want to look at this issue of the connection between climate change human rights and and and peace issues and the The critical issue is that we are facing, you know a climate change crisis NASA has recently, you know said that last year was the warmest year on record and the world meteorological Organization has said that the last eight years have been the warmest on record as well and at sea level rise and Ocean warming has hit new highs. So that there are serious issues around us and this is Clearly a global crisis that we're facing now for for many millions of people Climate change constitutes a serious threat to the ability of present and future generations to enjoy the right to life and Human induced climate change is the largest most pervasive threat to human society The world has ever experienced and and I'm not over stating that I think it's it's a clearly a global concern The intergovernmental panel on climate change in its last report Said that approximately three point six billion people more than half the world's population live in areas Characterized as being highly vulnerable to climate change hazards. So that's you know, a large number of people are You know in a very serious situation and this is the particularly the case for children UNICEF have reported that one billion children are at extremely high risk of climate change impacts and and Children young people are, you know, some of the most vulnerable to the impacts of climate change and This is causing significant loss and damage And it's one of the greatest sort of intergenerational injustices that children and young people face today Especially girls in low-income countries. So where the legacy we're creating today is a serious problem for for younger generations And what one of the major issues that I'm particularly interested in I reported to the Human Rights Council In June of last year around this issue is is climate change displacement in 2021 22.3 million people were displaced from their homes due to weather-related events Most of these people were displaced within their own country But certainly there are people who are disgraced displaced across international borders as well and There are all sorts of human rights implications for climate change You know, this includes, you know, the you know denying people their right to life To health to food to development self-determination Water and sanitation and many other basic human rights are being affected by climate change and One of the crucial issues and it's one I've been following is that the issue of a proportion of people displaced by climate change Are forced across international borders and these people are not defined as refugees under the refugee convention Because they haven't suffered some form of political persecution, which is a sort of definition of refugee convention Subsequently, these people fall through the cracks as far as legal protection is concerned and and they also face all sorts of human rights abuses and violations as a consequence of that and And and this is just one example. This is a so-called refugee camp in Kenya just across the border from Somalia and You know Somalia has been suffering a prolonged drought for a number of years and and people are being displaced across the border into Kenya as a consequence of this Prolonged drought and of course it has, you know implications not only for the country where the climate change impacts are occurring But also the receiving country as well. They have to bear the burden of you know, putting up You know accommodation providing services for those people You know the UN High Commission for refugees is working with them on this issue But it is a burden for receiving country and invariably that's developing countries who face that If we if we look at this sort of issue, you know This whole displacement issue is causing unrest and there is a theory that the original You know war in Syria came as a consequence of a nine-year drought and there was a large migration of people from rural areas into the cities and that caused You know domestic turmoil in that country, which was you know Suggested as one of the drivers for for the war in Syria and One of the issues and this is in in Libya a picture taken in Libya is that there are a lot of people Moving away from climate change impacts throughout Africa as far as away as the Gambia And they've been you know studies of people ending up in Libya and what's you know Research to find out what the cause of their displacement was and some people as far away as the Gambia Have moved through to Libya because of climate change impacts and as a consequence of that They're put into very vulnerable situations where they've been subjected to unlawful killings and forced disappearance slavery forced labor arbitrary Detention torture ill treatment trafficking sexual violence and extortion So it's no wonder these people are trying to escape from from that area and since 2014 over 26,000 people have died or gone missing crossing the Mediterranean Sea most of these deaths or Disappearances over 20,000 occurred in Central Mediterranean and considered amongst the deadliest migration routes in the world and Italy has been the major recipient of that the 31,000 since arrivals in 2023 alone Up from 7,922 and the interesting thing is that my most migrants come from cope diva guinea Bangladesh Tunisia and Pakistan and they have departed from Libya or Tunisia So it's interesting that it's not just people just from Africa who are being displaced and work their way through through Through Libya, but there's people from South Asia as well And you may recall that were very large floods in Pakistan in 2022 and I visited Bangladesh in 2022 To look at the impacts of climate change and displacement in that country and they estimate that around 300,000 people are internally displaced each year as a consequence of climate change events in Bangladesh But it's not just African countries and South and South Asia certainly You know Pacific Island countries are right on the edge of climate change impacts And I've certainly witnessed that from you know my involvement with to value to value's highest point above sea level There's only four meters on average people live less than two meters. So they're you know, they're facing the brunt of Rising sea levels, but the most immediate packs impacts our storm surges and You know in 2016 Cyclone Pam washed right across the island three islands of to value sending waves right across the island Another interesting fact and not well known is that it's also affecting sea life You know the warming of the ocean the ocean You know absorbs a lot of the heat that's coming from from the the sun and a lot of that is warming up And that's changing the migration patterns of Fish and particularly tuna and tuna is a major source of income for Pacific Island countries And the tuna are moving away from the warmer oceans moving eastward and this is affecting You know productivity and of course it you know, there are a lot of distant water nations Operating fishing in that region as well. And so there are regional tensions over, you know, tuna stocks and this is a big issue Just in September last year I visited Honduras to look at the impacts of climate change there and particularly looking at the whole issue of migration of people from Honduras as a consequence of climate change and so the people on the Pacific side of Honduras Have suffered a very long drought and there are you know, I spoke with people There in rural communities who are just leaving the country because it's no longer viable for them but on the on the Caribbean coast they've suffered very large Hurricanes and and got smashed and this is You know, 8,000 people were hit by Hurricane Mitch in 1998 were killed by Hurricane Mitch and and You know, when I went there, there's still recovery efforts after that hurricane. So these these are the sort of, you know, global problems of Climate change. And so what we're seeing, you know, a large number of migrants coming to the US-Mexico border That, you know, and 2 million in fact were there in 2021. Now, there are a variety of reasons of why people are migrating to the US border, you know Social economic issues in Venezuela are some of them other issues in Guatemala and so forth But a certain percentage of those people are definitely, you know, displaced people as a consequence of climate change And that's causing tensions and unrest in that region as well as a consequence of that migration patterns So there's, you know, there have been studies to sort of link this issue between climate change and armed conflict And out of the 20 countries considered the most vulnerable to the impacts of climate change 13 are also affected by armed conflict Afghanistan, the Democratic Republic of Congo, Mali, Somalia, Yemen or all in states of violent protected conflict And, you know, the climate change is one of the causes of that fact fact and conflicts harm assets You know and and make it difficult for countries to absorb Shocks and institutions and markets and their livelihoods and so people's food security are affected by these these issues And the UN Security Council looked at this issue in 2011 and said, you know, saw that climate change recognized as a threat multiplier You know And, you know, look particularly at the Sahel region in West Africa around this issue And the UN Secretary General Antonio Guterres, you know, made this statement at the Security Council We must make no mistake. The facts are clear. Climate change is real and is accelerating in a dangerous manner It not only exacerbates threats to international peace and security. It is a threat to international peace and security And so this, you know, this is the challenge You know, that's been considered by the Security Council One of the most tragic things and I, you know, that I was, you know, had to confront When I was special rapporteur was talking with people working with children Who have been recruited as child soldiers and there's a real tragedy there of 49 people were internally displaced and estimated 35 Million people or 82 percent were children below the age of 18 And a lot of those people fall foul to militia You know and putting them at risk of being recruited by militia And, you know, I heard testimonies of Of children being put in very awful situations where they're they're forced to kill people or be killed themselves And these are real the tragedies that children and UNICEF is doing work to try and You know rehabilitate some of these child soldiers to give them back their youth But it's a real challenge once you put in that awful situation And You know, there's been studies which suggests that climate change is raising incidents of maritime piracy And this is, you know, an issue in Somalia Where there, you know, the droughts loss of income of that are forcing people to seek other sources of income And that's led to to marine piracy maritime piracy. So they're all sorts of issues Connected to climate change and insecurity And we're seeing this in the Pacific, you know, because of the increased competition for fish stocks the United States is, uh, you know Creating a more, uh, presence within the Pacific region And using Coast Guard cutters and this is obviously, you know, in direct competition with China, you know, to get access to, you know, fisheries resources of the region So this is creating a region of instability Uh, you know, particularly between the US and China as a consequence So the this is the challenge we have with, uh, you know, climate change being a driver of of security issues And and the problem being is that we're not adequately addressing climate change as a serious threat to to humanity Um, you know, and and the the international energy agency said in 2021 the world is if the world is to limit Global warming to 1.5 degrees Celsius, which is a target set in the Paris Agreement. There should be no new investments in fossil fuels And unfortunately, you know, that that that suggestion has been ignored. It was recently announced that Exxon Mobile earned over 56 billion dollars in 2022 Exxon 6.3 You know in profit every single hour last year And Chevron recorded 35 billion dollars in profit in 2022 So these big fossil fuel companies are making large amounts of money at the expense of people And Saudi Aramco, uh, you know recorded a huge profit last year of 161 billion dollars And so, you know, there's huge inequities there and you know studies in the United States around The politics are saying that oil companies are buying influence you know You know beyond and influencing various committees, you know in the u.s Congress around energy and so forth and and sort of locating people in strategic positions The other major issue is around fossil fuel subsidies Uh, you know, there's still large amounts of subsidies to the fossil fuel industry the u.s being the biggest And japan and the uk being the largest, uh, you know Subsidizers of fossil fuels And you know doubt have heard about, you know, recent announcements by the uk government to expand its exploration of the norsi And subsidizing a lot of that I was involved, uh, you know, when I was special up to writing the uk government about the harsh treatment being handed out to to, uh Environmental defenders, uh, you know where we had environmental defenders Put in jail for a sentences of up to four years for just hanging a banner off a bridge and so that there's this sort of influence of the oil industry directing government policy And you know the the people at the end of this are the the environmental defenders, which is very sad and I was in I was in the philippines in November the last year Looking at the whole issue of climate change impacts And there is a sort of, you know, major crackdown on environmental defenders there by the military So we you've got this sort of a nexus between, you know, the military action Red tagging environmental defenders calling them, uh, you know, communists, etc You know, and this is going way beyond the mandate of this military And so I in in my report that I made at the end of my visit to the philippines, you know called for the abandonment of this anti insurgency task force called the national task force to eliminate Communism so that you know, these these are the challenges that we have is that military are also playing, uh, you know A role in suppressing public viewpoints In various parts of the world The other issue of of of, you know, concern is that we're now seeing climate change cops You know the conference of parties being hijacked by the fossil fuel industry itself and and This is, you know, clearly a serious concern. I I was at the climate change cop in in dubai In december, you know, and there were serious concerns about, uh, you know, the role of the presidency of the cop, you know, that uh Had, you know strong influence over over the outcomes What one of the things that's not not sort of well known, I guess is not only are there actions You know by fossil fuel industries, but there are also Mitigation technologies, you know to try and reduce emissions that are also having human rights implications and also causing, uh, you know, uh conflicts And and I've met with indigenous peoples From from the amazon who are concerned about the development of hydroelectric dams on the on their country Uh, you know affecting water courses Their access to food And so there are major concerns as a consequence of these so-called, you know, green technologies Um, you know, we we one of the issues is around, uh electricity supply and electric vehicles and you know, there's a major boom in in, uh, You know get sourcing some of these strategic minerals like lithium And so forth and we see these Strong pr messages coming out of companies the uk based company glen core putting a sort of, uh, you know A clean image on their work, but in reality They're they're serious human rights issues You know five tech companies have been sued over use of child labor in conglies cobalt mines And so these are some of the you know additional challenges leading to insecurity in some of these countries and that that challenge went to a u.s. Court But the us dc court dismissed the cobalt mining case against the five major technic companies Obviously, you know, there's a huge legal imbalance in representation in these sorts of cases and the judge found that the people Excuse me taking this case didn't have proper standing to be here to appear before the courts So there there are legal issues of trying to Deal with some of these issues So, you know the challenge being is what what can we do about some of these issues? And there I guess, you know a number of approaches that can deal about this But what i'm particularly interested in is, you know the corporate accountability and i'm Been looking and researching into this issue of you know due diligence and disclosure procedures, you know companies Disclosing where they're investing in fossil fuels uh, what the major financial institutions the the banks the uh uh insurance industry Superannuation funds, you know, should they be disclosing where they're investing their money and there's certainly work going ahead on this sort of economic environmental and social governance reporting procedures European union is doing work on that and and the u.s. Is doing some work on that And the un guiding principles on business and human rights, you know has guidelines for business and I think needs to sort of do some more work in connection with climate change issues So the security council looked at this issue in 2011 and also looked at it again in 2021 And uh, this was brought, you know, a resolution was brought Uh by island, I think, um, you know to get a proper discussion on making this link between climate change and security issues and There was no agreement to to consider that and so The security council failed to adopt a resolution integrating climate related security risks into conflict resolutions prevention strategies Um, there were 12 in favour two against India and russian federation Excuse me and china abstained and because, you know russia is um One of the p5 members the permanent members, you know, if they vote against then they had that right of veto So this is a challenge and I I you know went to new york last year and and met with people In the un about, you know, is the security council the best way to deal with these issues and at the moment You know, there's a strong preoccupation with other conflicts So this is a challenge getting them to think about those issues Um, just in the earlier this month nato started talks with civil society on women peace and security policy Issues and I think this is a very productive way forward You know, not only because it has a strong gender focus to this and I think that sort of You know lens of gender considerations In conflicts need to be brought out and and a different perspective Brought forward into this security debate Uh, you know, obviously there are issues around nato at the moment But nevertheless, I think having that sort of discussion is very useful particularly with a gender focus on them One of the issues that I've been pushing for is is to give legal protection to people displaced across international borders as a consequence of climate change and I have suggested to the human rights council That maybe we need a un general assembly resolution to commence work on an optional protocol under the refugee convention To give legal protection to people displaced across international borders It doesn't necessarily resolve a lot of issues But it gives some level of security to those people and may relieve some of the The human rights violations and some of the tensions around those issues if greater work was done around that You know, I don't have any illusions about this being a very sensitive issue you know Migration as you know In in europe is a very sensitive issue But we can't deny the fact that climate change is driving Displacement and migration and we need to think about giving protection to those people I also, you know, I think we need to develop some sort of grievance mechanism for particularly people who have suffered abuse You know an environmental harm as a consequence of standing up for their rights You know, and I was suggesting to the UN General Assembly that we established an international tribunal to indict perpetrators of human rights abuses Against environmental and human rights defenders and this is this is a global problem. We're seeing this across the world National governments, you know can't do this on their own and we need some sort of international tribunal to deal with that And finally Uh, you know the the UN Secretary General is holding a major summit This year called the summit of the of the future This is a review of the sustainable development goals and looking at forward thinking approaches to dealing with some of the global problems This this year and and there are you know starting to be sort of committee meetings and discussions around what that will do So there there are some possible options this year to try and bring into The debate around these security issues Obviously, there are, you know, a serious Termile within the world at the moment and and maybe people are not so Interested in looking at the connection between climate change and security issues, but it's not something that's going to go away And we need to think, you know you know Have long-term strategies for dealing with these issues particularly for our younger generation and the next generation as well So that's that's a sort of, you know, very quick overview of sort of some of the linkages between climate change and peace and security issues and I'm more than happy to Take questions on that. So thank you very much Thank you very much Ian for this extremely rich thought provoking and I would say also very nuanced and comprehensive presentation Because the way you presented the links the nexus between climate change, out of conflicts, human rights violations dealing with the issue of forced displacement definitely Made us realize that the whole issue is way more multi-layered than we think And uh, it's very true that you mentioned, you know, the 21st security council resolution about climate change as a threat to international peace and security But we have seen, you know, how climate change is a driver I wrote down while you were presenting of different security issues So you you highlighted so many things that we could talk forever, but from from child No, to human rights violations of my offer of people who are possible displays to maritime security and piracy There are so many many issues that I have. I have my note here, but I don't want to hijack the discussion However, something that I would like to say is that I remember one of my legal colleagues said once He made a recommendation to us. He said don't use the word crisis for everything, you know We are in crisis in crisis. Don't trivialize the word crisis He said keep the word crisis for the real issue and the real issue is the climate crisis Put that in the core of our discourse and and how we think about the future and future developments And also not only you presented The main issues and the nuances and so many things that they are taxed upon But also you gave us the second part of your presentation some ideas of How can we deal? What can what can be done from from legal accountability to a more soft law of accountability of business and human rights to trade journals? I found particularly interesting, you know that in 2021 we couldn't have this resolution In the security council Um, uh, but also, you know other issues about the special tribunal Um, or how NATO deals or the link with gender and human rights So I stop here. I would like to give the floor first to our audience and you can put your questions on q&a You can use the chat. We can activate the chat or you can raise your hand, you know, and the list can give you access who would like to take That to Dr. Ian's right You have all the floor. I don't know if anyone would like to take Uh, uh from the q&a. I don't see that we have something here, but uh, maybe on the chat Can you all hear me? Well, that's the first question But I'll take you can raise your hand And take the floor while we're waiting for people to think about this. So it's interesting to sort of understand You know the two countries who voted against that 2021 resolution In russia and india and it's interesting to understand what india said You know, I looked at the speech by the The the representative from india and they said, you know, we take climate change very seriously But we don't think it's the right forum for dealing with climate change issues. It should be done by the climate change cop of course You know, there are reasons why they say that because you know, they're developing countries have much bigger numbers In the cop than they do in the security council and and you know Therefore can have a better say in and the outcomes But the cop is not, you know, it doesn't have the same level of significance as the security council and And I I suspect the cop would be very reluctant to talk about security issues I can imagine Um, also, you know, if until we give the space, you know, to people to interact more I have a question uh Regarding the role of human rights and the role of human rights mechanisms that we are you you have been a special Report of via the special procedures of the human rights council But but in particular what we see is also how um the human rights committee Deal with with climate change in two Cases they had one of them was to value as well, you know And about actually the right to life and how that could be linked to the To the right to apply for asylum Due to to climate change. So I was thinking what are your take? What is your take about the role of human rights law to complement if any Climate to complement issues and challenges human rights violations deriving from climate change yes Well, it was yeah, the two interesting cases the billy case, which was uh Brought by Torres Strait Islanders of Australia Who lived in very low lying situations and and they took that to the human rights Committee and the committee found in their favour and said Australia wasn't doing enough To to protect the people the the committee didn't say much about, you know, Australia's obligations to reduce its emissions But basically said it wasn't doing enough to protect those people from the impacts of climate change And then you had the Te Te Ota case, which was The the the case brought by two Iqiribus couple who were to be deported back to Iqiribus And they claimed to be climate change refugees and said that they would You know suffer as a consequence if they were sent back to Iqiribus the the the domestic Courts in New Zealand said they didn't have a case and so they took it to the Human Rights Committee And the Human Rights Committee said the same thing basically That that there wasn't enough evidence to say that their Their lives would be threatened as a consequence if they were to being deported nevertheless, they did say and uh, that you know Decision makers need to be aware of climate change as a decision in making administrative decisions about Migration issues. So there's some useful precedent there Even though those people were not successful and and being defined as so-called climate change refugees Thank you very much Ian for that because it gives a little bit It gives us this nuance picture regarding, you know Little imagination as I say and how you can use such as a general comment on the right to life and how you can link it on that Again, I encourage people To to to ask questions, but I have one more question For you before I give the floor to others and that is about this new movement We have of intergenerational justice litigation and we see that before domestic courts, but also before the european court of human rights We have a massive I would say a proliferation of legal climate litigation Also with the advisory opinions that we have from to the india america court But also before the icj and I was wondering, you know, how do you see all these? Legal developments come together and how do you see they can contribute? towards further protection Well, yes, this is very interesting and I I looked at that issue as part of my last report to you and general assembly So there's some interesting developments the the portuguese children case and the european commission Of a court of human rights is a very interesting case because it does talk about the rights of present and future generations And I it'll be interesting to see how that plays out You know, there have been some court cases in the united states some of them thrown out But some have made progress. I think the one in Minnesota, I think was quite useful in in that regards, you know Highlighting this fact and the advisory opinion Of the international court of justice will be an interesting one I've just worked on an amicus brief for that case particularly around the issue of intergenerational justice And as you saw as you rightly point out the inter-american court of human rights Has also been looking at looking at an advisory opinion brought by chili and columbia around those issues my sense is, you know, the The the real direction. I think we're heading is that we've previously A lot of cases have been brought against governments and we saw that with the agenda case in the netherlands But we're now starting to see cases brought against board directors and the green priests Did that and I think this is a critical area while that was thrown out by the court They're challenging that, you know, that decision It was against shell and I think this is where the, you know, You know courts will start to have a significant influence if they start Naming individuals of corporations And making them liable for their decisions So I think that's an interesting direction. I think we're heading in Again, thank you very much for this observation. Liz you have the floor So Hello, um, thank you firstly for a very interesting and um, very broad and wide reaching I'm impressed by the kind of number of cases and incidents and stuff that you managed to Pack into a half hour presentation Um, my question is in some ways very simple in some ways probably difficult to answer But I decided it's not every day that you get the opportunity To ask a former UN special repertoire a question um, so looking as Maria said to you know What we can do moving forward. I'd be very interested to know from your kind of Experiences visiting so many places that are affected by climate change and human rights issues, which one peaks the most concern Um, which which do you see as you know, the most kind of critical issue that as an international community really if we don't focus on it Quite immediately and in a very sustained manner than you know, there are quite significant issues that are going to arise uh shortly Yeah, it's a challenging question obviously because there are so many fronts that we have to fight on on this issue Clearly, you know, we we need to take Urgent action to reduce emissions globally and so that that's the crucial area And so how how do we force that agenda and we we're certainly You know, the the climate change cops aren't forcing that agenda You know, we've had debates, you know going back to the Glasgow cop about you know phasing down and or phasing out fossil fuels and you know, we seem to have a succession of Countries that that are fossil fuel exporters hosting cops and that's not going to change in the near future But I think, you know, the the area of litigation is critical to to drive you know Greater action to reduce emissions. I think that that's a critical issue but we can't You know, the whole issue of loss and damage is critical That that we're you know people are already suffering even if we stopped emissions today There'd be still a lot of people suffering. So we have to find Remedies to deal with those people and provide Reparations and compensation for those people Thank you very much and I have two questions on the chat You can take the floor, but I can read the questions from the audience So mariam says As we see how she says how we see how climate change has disproportionately impacted already economically vulnerable countries for example, you know after the recent floods pakistan claim for international support Arguing that they suffer disproportionately for something that was exacerbated by developments and acts in the west So what are your thoughts on that first and what initiatives do you think could these regions take to mitigate some of those climate change Impacts and then we have another question as well. Yes I mean The problem being is that climate change is a global problem and and so You know a lot of the emissions, you know, the majority of emissions are coming from Uh, you know the big emitting countries and that's now China, United States, india Japan and the european union, you know, I guess the five biggest emitters So that they've got a a greater responsibility and unfortunately It's the poorer countries that have to to deal with those issues and and you know Suffering disproportionate impacts I I did go to pakistan last year as well and and Appeared at a security conference in pakistan and they Clearly see this as a security issue because of the huge You know floods that they suffered in 2022 So, you know, there needs much greater support mechanisms for these countries But also, you know, the big emitters have to take much greater action and and take greater responsibility for their for their emissions Thank you. Ask morian and then we have another question related also to transitional justice from He lies he says Given the increased link between climate change and conflict It would be really helpful to hear your thoughts about how climate change related factors Could be incorporated into the transitional justice process going forward to be some more resilient Peace is there a role for education in this context which could incorporate climate change issues Well, you know, obviously The answer is yes, you know, we people have to be aware of the impacts of climate change The the challenge is is that, you know, there's a lot of climate change denialism And and as we're seeing in the lead up to the next us election, you know, one of the major candidates Is is a climate change denier and and so this this represents challenge That, you know, there are challenges with the media as well, you know, the major media outlets Are climate change denial so that there has to be some way of dealing with that as well So certainly, you know, greater education about the seriousness of climate change is needed to counteract You know, the the the, you know, the media outlets that are that are major climate change denialists Thank you again. And we have also one more question from Mary Lynn Mary Lynn asks She says I'm an organization studies early career scholar and I'm interested in the practices surrounding the organizing of healthcare and justice So my question is how can we continue this conversation, especially when COP is co-opted activists who disrupt the flow of commerce Especially when call Sorry, it's co-opted Activists who disrupt the flow of comments are demonized Well, you know, there's there's a variety of approaches that people can take on these issues. I think and And certainly, you know, getting active in in various Organizations is critical You know, I you know, though a lot of work with human rights watch oxfam These are all very active in the in this space And I encourage people, you know to to volunteer to support them For for their work the Environmental Justice Foundation Held an alternative COP and so this was an online COP that they held, you know, for people most affected by climate change As an alternative to these sort of heavily biased COPs But we we have to make inroads into these dialogues and so, you know at the moment the world economic forum is being held You know, and this is big business. This is big You know politics and so we have to find inroads into that that sort of conversation And and you know Greta Thunberg has been you know making statements about the world economic forum and we need to you know, provide support for her Uh, you know for those those sorts of commentaries to to You know have an alternative voice in in this area and space Yes, I think we have 10 more minutes. So if I can More people can join us, but I have a question if that's okay with you and I was particularly intrigued about When you mentioned that you proposed an optional protocol to the refugee protection in order to incorporate and care definition of the climate Refugee and we saw these discussions took place during the the global compacts as well We had two global compacts at the end of the day. Of course, we don't have a separate definition There is some acknowledging on climate chasers driver of displacement, but my understanding is that the world is kind of It's not that strong over there. There is an acknowledgement I think in the on the global compact of migration is much stronger than refugees So and there are some people that say actually that we already have a system We have a system of human rights protection. So we don't need A separate legal protection. I would like a little bit to ask you further more about this proposal. Why do you think? That an optional protocol, you know would be Would have an added value, you know if we had that And I'm also found particularly interesting your suggestion to the general assembly for for for a tribunal So if you would like to talk a little bit more about these two proposals Yes, thank you I when I was working for the Tavado government I was involved in some of the negotiations around the global compact on migration and we had a real battle Getting climate change mentioned in that in the in the early drafts of that So that you know, there was pushback around that issue Of course, you know, the these two compacts on migration and and refugees are soft law There are no legally binding requirements. So that that's a challenge around those issues And you know, I While there are there is human rights law in a very general sense It doesn't necessarily give, you know specific protection to people displaced across international borders and and So, you know, I I think something more formal You know under the the refugee convention would give a trigger for the high commission for refugees To take action and they seem to be the most logical approach to deal with that You know, I did look at other options, you know, and it's a challenge There are other very, you know, soft law, you know approaches. There was the nansen initiative, which is now the german government's taken up Platform for I can't remember the name, but it's a You know, that's another soft law approach to dealing with that issue but You know, I I thought that we needed more legal approaches and there's certainly Been some regional work, you know, that there's the inter-american commission on human rights has worked on Expanding the definition of refugees and and the African union has also done that to to incorporate people who have Suffered from public disorder I'm not sure that climate change fits that definition, but it shows a willingness to change the definition But it became very clear to me that it would not be worthwhile amending the refugee convention because you know, it has a strong history and it might, you know I I think it would be difficult to amend it So I thought, you know optional protocol that doesn't interfere with the current refugee convention might be of the way forward Of course, I don't have any illusions that it's going to happen very quickly You know considering the sensitivity of migration debates these days, but I I think you know to give proper protection to people Uh, we need to make that formal step Thank you, we have two more questions. Um, maybe the I will change the order Maybe we can finish with Claire's question But mariam before asks that you mentioned before that reducing emissions should be a priority Particularly when it comes from the big emitters But when we see barely but we see barely any effort in reducing fossil fuel emissions subsidies announcements of other explorers explorations North sea for example something that you mentioned before with the uk Stand and companies buying influence within the government. So the outlooks See as it looks rather green and I think Claire's Question is kind of linked to that because this how do you prevent becoming overwhelmed by the enormity of these issues? So we have a dire reality or a green prospect on the other hand, you know, and we are all overwhelmed You mentioned, you know that the international agenda has been um, I won't say hijack, but it has been a deal with some very issue Very tough issues the last year. So what is your personal standing? What is your hope? What is your advice for that, you know, well, you know, I You have to think about where the weak links in this whole sort of economic system, I guess and and and the opportunities And certainly the renewable energy industry has, you know, is is growing quite rapidly and and we have to promote the renewable energy industry in whatever pay possible possible and And you know as I was saying, you know, look at this corporate accountability and there's certainly steps around that, you know You know to to to bring, you know out into the public arena You know the accountability of corporations where they're putting their money, etc And that's a critical issue I there's one other issue that I haven't mentioned and this is what's called the energy charter treaty, which is a, you know another another serious concern is that it basically locks in energy contracts and so and so what we're seeing is that fossil fuel companies are suing countries for taking action on climate change and we saw that with Italy You know millions of dollars They were, you know taken before a tribunal under the energy charter treaty Even though they had withdrawn from the energy charter treaty, they were still found liable And so the european union is trying to Encourage countries to step out of the out of the energy charter treaty, but it's still around, you know Mozambique was brought before a tribunal and had to pay millions of dollars In compensation for trying to move away from fossil fuels and this is a huge injustice And and so that's another area that we have to chip away at is to to get rid of this energy charter treaty Or to redirect it towards, you know only providing guarantees for renewable energies Wow, it seems if you if you have five more minutes if it's okay with you it seems now that we have a flood of questions, you know, but I think Luca's question is very relevant actually It's something that you touched upon about Philippines and the crackdown So he says the strong link between climate change and conflicts could lead to a more significant role for the military That's what you mentioned as well. However, this may result in an ambiguous situation where the military is used to help people After disasters, but also before against activities something you mentioned the crackdown on case, you know Environmentally activists named as communists, you know in in in philippines. We in philippines has also a very particular record Bad record direct where it comes to drug trafficking as well And so what actions can be taken to address these aspects? And maybe I will have one more question and then we can we can let you It's Philippines is very sad, you know I met with some indigenous women in a secret location and they they had some very Sad stories to tell about the fact that this military came in Pulled them out of their houses and shot their husbands in their houses at night Because they had protest protested against a dam on their land, you know Defined tribal lands under philippines law They were being persecuted and and the army was being used to do that and I heard others You know two young women 21 years old Had protested against land reclamation projects in manila bay. They were abducted by the military And kept hostage for over 11 days, you know and subjected to various forms of psychological torture and You know, I met with these people and young people and you know, they're very brave And we have to call this out, you know, we we just have to draw attention to these, you know And so organizations like human rights watch and that are doing that and I you know I really admire the work that they're doing and those sorts of areas Thank you. Thank you very much. Ian if I can wrap up this wonderful discussion I'm sure, you know because you touch upon so many issues And for example, when you mentioned about NATO and gender, of course gender and climate change Or you you refer to indigenous populations and we know the particular like if we think about brazil about other places, you know The role of indigenous population when it comes to climate protection Uh, so I think we can do another A series of webinars with you to to just to focus on particular themes But if I will try to wrap up this very brief discussion wonderful by the way And I found very interesting Uh, you come back to corporate accountability, you know, and you and you say that they the it was Can I say shifting point, you know, when we have litigation against corporate corporation, you know Because we have litigation towards states. We talk about the intergenerational Justice litigation, but you say, you know, this is a key issue and and you come back to that I think you mentioned that two or three times So I was wondering, you know, if we bring that in complementarity as we say, you know with the with the secretary general's vision for the Summit of the future. Okay, which is as we say reassessment of the Sustainable development goals plus what type of future do we want? How do you think these pieces could come together? Uh, do you think that maybe, you know, the security council could have a different standing before the security? How do you see the summit of the future as a whole approach basically? And maybe this is where I can I can stop and maybe this is how we can conclude this wonder Yeah, I mean It it it's a it's a challenge, you know A bit considering global politics at the moment, you know, there was a review of the sustainable development goals last year and it didn't Result in a lot of outcomes I hope and I think the the UN secretary general was trying to You know delay the summit of the future was to be last year But I think he was trying to delay that to separate it out from the review of the stg's and and you know have something You know to properly consider I understand there are already some, you know processes for developing draft outcome documents now so You know, I haven't had a chance to sort of look at that yet But hopefully, you know, there'll be something meaningful coming out of that process So So on that note that hopefully something meaningful will come out of that process I would like to thank you very much for this wonderful Discussion and contribution. I'm telling you it was so great that we can talk We should do something more about especially gender indigenous. I find it particularly intriguing and I think, you know, responding to the questions of the audience. We don't leave them with a doom feeling, you know Yes, the situation is dire But also on the other hand, we have seen that there is so much there is a variety of action From different actors, whether it's at the international level domestic regional level non-state actors states international organizations So hopefully as you say something meaningful will come out of that So thank you very much and it was wonderful talking to you And I see some are raising her hand No, no, it was a mistake And we look forward to seeing you in person In london whenever you come to this part of the world, you know, yes, thank you very much And I'm more than happy to have further dialogues around some of these issues that That's been a good discussion And I I enjoy having these sorts of discussions that it challenges me to think about these issues More than happy and hopefully I'll have an opportunity to be a visit you in person Excellent. Thank you all very much. Thank you and good night from london to come Thank you Thank you. Bye. Bye. I'll see you soon for our next webinar. Thank you. Bye. Thank you. Please very much I want to thank lisa once more our psd researcher and Accommodator of all these events and lisa ben brown. You have great. Thank you all. Thank you very very much. Bye. Bye. Bye Bye