 So, welcome to this session workshop about Debian ISE support and localized ISE support. My name is Michel Bank, I'm one of the hash Debian channel operators. So first off, I'd like to ask, like, who in here put your hands up is doing ISE support? So a couple of people, Tim, Mibid. So I hope this is mostly like a discussion. I'd like to present first, shortly, generally, what we are doing in hash Debian and then present some ideas on how we can maybe converge or something for some other channels or, well, whatever comes out of this. So generally, we have to say that most of the Debian development channels are now on IRC Debian Arc, but on the other hand, the support is amazingly still distributed on both Free Note and OFTC. For example, the main hash Debian channel has twice the amount of people on Free Note than it has on OFTC. So not everybody has migrated and also a lot of the non-English channels that we're talking about are still on Free Note or on both. Back in the days, like a couple of years ago, sometimes there used to be objections to hash Debian and how people were treated or how people treated themselves or behaved themselves. I think it's much improved these days to the point of where we get several times a day people from hash Ubuntu who try to sneak up on support because they don't get as good support in Ubuntu. Well, we can't help them that much, but the thing is that we, as the people from the hash Debian channel, we don't really know what happens to people that we have to send off to other support channels because they don't speak English. So I'd like to present first a bit about my personal story. I've been on hash Debian for some time since I started being involved in Debian, mostly just for a couple of hours or days asking a question or trying to help a bit but then got overpowered by the traffic, several hundred people that makes a lot of traffic. But I mean, I was always a bit worried or say personally interested that DiRSC support that Debian does should be high quality and then people should actually get help. So at some point, when there was another discussion on the Debian devil mailing list, I think, about somebody getting kicked out of hash Debian, in the end it turned out that it was their fault. But I decided, okay, if I want to make a difference, I should actually get on the channel and then help. Just because I'm a Debian developer doesn't mean I can tell the regulars there immediately how they should behave. So I decided to just go there and to support myself. And after a couple of days or maybe weeks, I started getting like respect from the regulars and they noticed me and then I was becoming a regular myself. And after a couple of more months maybe, Don asked me whether I want to become a channel operator. So and that's been like, I don't know, three or maybe three years ago, I don't remember. And I tried to be, yeah, I tried to be involved and sometimes I'm more involved, sometimes less doing support and helping with moderating the channel. So basically if you're interested in doing it and if you're a Debian developer or if you're not a Debian developer, you're welcome to help during user support on hash Debian. So that's an important issue for Debian. A lot of people are requesting support. It's actually a pretty high quality thing, at least for regular questions. Of course we can't help if somebody has a very specific question, but maybe even then we can help. Yeah. So now, general, what sort of like guidelines have involved? I mean, that's more like my personal take on it, right? So, I mean, some other operators or regulars might have other opinions. But generally, we decided or it's been decided, like, certainly you can interrupt me if I'm wrong or so, if you think otherwise, that hash Debian is a support channel. It's not a social channel. So that means if, I mean, certainly saying hi and so it's okay and saying, hey, how are you doing? But if people start discussing what they did last night for more than a couple of minutes and we tell them, like, please go elsewhere, even if they're regulars, it's exclusively English language. So we don't tolerate people discussing things in Spanish, at least, well, if somebody has to be told, like, how to get to some other channel with Spanish language people, that might be okay. But if they start answering questions about Spanish stuff, then we also say, please go elsewhere. Yeah, as I said, being off topic is only tolerated for so much. Certainly we don't kick immediately people who are off topic, but if this goes on for a couple of minutes or lines, we ask them to please go elsewhere. There's the, I think there used to be the hash-hash-debian channel at some point on Freenote, and there's the hash-debian-ot channel. So it has to be said that a couple of regulars who were annoyed by being off topic wasn't supported, started to hang out there and not in hash-debian anymore. But I think that in the end, it's better for a channel. You have to make a clear cut. If you tolerate, like, off-topicness only from regulars, then it's really unfair, and it doesn't really help. Casting is allowed compared to other channels, like, if you say, like, for example, if you go in a hash-debian-to channel and you say, shit, why doesn't this work? You're immediately told to please drop that. So if somebody says, like, shit, it's not a problem on the channel unless they do it repeatedly for 100 times. But if they say, fuck you to somebody, then we immediately say, hey, this is not okay, so please not casting at people, or fuck KDE4 or something, this thing, other open source projects, just because you don't like them, it's not really professional or it's not really wanted, so we try to keep that down to a reasonable level, I think. We don't kick out people who are apparently stupid, like, can't configure Apache 2 or something. We try to help them, and we also say, if regulars get annoyed at them and say, like, you're so stupid, read the documentation, we say, like, please, back off, so we try to help the users, even if they're not the brightest or having trouble understanding. And we don't require real names. So if there's trouble, what are we doing? Basically, if there's an obvious spammer, they get removed pretty quickly. So if people just spamming the channel, we have an extra bot who kicks off people who paste more than three lines. And that usually also involves spammers, so they get told, please use a paste bin, that's for regular people. I mean, we don't want people spamming the channel with, like, their whole X-org lock or something. So it's automatically kicked, but not kick banned, of course, so they can come back, but spammers are immediately also kicked. And also, if somebody is obviously a spammer, like, these American pure racist people also, they get immediately kicked, of course, if we recognize it. We generally have this ops command thing, which is the bang factored thing. So we have this deep package bot on Hashtabin, which is pretty useful. It has a lot of knowledge about random stuff, like how to install NVIDIA, binary drivers on Debian, or which kernel version, or whatever. I mean, you name it. It's probably there. There's also a lot of weird stuff in there, but, okay, we try to clean it up if it's really offensive. Everybody can add factors there. And for example, the ops factored, like, highlights every channel operator who is in that list and with a reason, so they can draw attention to the channel and act if there's a problem. Yeah, in general, I think if people are really disruptive, we hope that, well, let's say, like, low-level spammers or trolls. We hope that the regulars can reason with them. So for example, they don't feed the troll. They just say, well, if you have a Debian question, please ask it. If not, either stay quiet or leave. And I think we're rather successful. For example, the Patty Frank troll is rather low-level on Hashtabin compared to HashtabinDE or HashtabinDevil. So that works for some amount. So if people are still disruptive, as I said, we have the ops command. We then, at least I do, still request those people to please behave properly. And only if they continue to be disruptive, they get a 10-minute timeout, which also, in my opinion, works really well. That means they're not kicked. They're just muted. So for 10 minutes, they can't talk to the channel. And a lot of trolls are really into getting kick-banned and then trying to prevent bans and stuff. So if you just mute them, that takes off their steam. And they might just leave. They might also insult you in private. But OK, that's part of the job. If that doesn't work after 10 minutes, they get kick-banned. But even then, there's two ways to get around that. Basically, what we're doing is don't irregularly clean up the ban list every couple of weeks. Or if it's a regular who gets kick-banned for whatever reason, or somebody who is thinking that they should genuinely be on the channel, then they can talk to us and then operate a channel. And usually, we ask them, why were you banned? Do you think that it was reasonable? What's the problem? And if they are reasonably considerate about their actions, then we just remove the ban. So that's about how Hash Debian works. So the question is now, what happens to people who cannot write English? Like, I don't know. Probably you can't really read that now. Sorry. It's just, yeah, sorry. So basically, it's a guy coming up called Coolmena. And he says, hola, el guien en español. And then, well, somebody invokes the E.S. factoid called Snae. And then they package says, well, I'm not a Spanish speaker. So he's bano a plantes. Por favor, join the BNES, ali obtendran mas ayuda. Spanish, and then in English again. Spanish speakers, please join Hash Debian dash E.S. There you will get much more help. So basically, we have a factoid for a couple of, or most, languages in the native language and in English telling them to go there instead of being on Hash Debian talking non-English. So they get invoked. Couple of times, maybe, if the people don't react. I mean, it's always a bit unclear at that point whether they are just not understanding English at all or whether they are trying to troll. I mean, we have a considerable amount of people just seeming to randomly say something and not really interested in going elsewhere. But okay, we try to be reasonable and then we remind them that the channel is English only. We try to tell them, like, join Hash Debian E.S. And if that doesn't work, we have to mute them for a while because as I said, we don't troll await non-English. And at some point, well, we kick-band them or whatever. Hope that they go to the other place. Is there any questions so far? Sometimes too, we'll drop in a band forwarding for somebody who, it doesn't seem to be able to go to the proper channel. A band forward. Yes, so. Okay, yeah, right. So when they try to rejoin again, they'll get forwarded to what the channel that we assume is the appropriate channel for them to be in. It just depends on who's doing it and what they're doing. Well, yeah, that's pretty useful except I don't know how to do it. You should teach me about it next time. It may be, but we get Portuguese, German, Italian, French, Russian. Yeah, certainly, yes, yes. I mean, I think Portuguese or Brazilian, Portuguese and Spanish are probably the most because let's say most German speakers, for example, seem to be able to understand it in English. There seem to be more problems or like more occurrences of Spanish or Portuguese people who apparently don't understand English at all. And so yeah, probably, it's a bit hard to say. I mean, but certainly, well, actually I think, yeah, right. So, damn, well, I had to fit on, well, I can summarize it. So I did some research on all the different channels so I checked the D-Package database. So in the first column, you see the factoid that we are invoking. In the second one is appropriately the language. And the third one is a channel that we're telling them to go. And the crosses there is whether the factoid says that they should go on ISC, ISCOFTC.NET or ISCFreeNOTE.NET because as I said, support is in both networks. And then you have the people actually in those channels in OFTC and FreeNOTE. And then some remarks. So the first line is English, Hashtabian. And as you can see, there's right now, there's 900 people in Hashtabian on FreeNOTE whereas there's only like 380 in OFTC. And okay, so the second one is German which is the most abundant. And actually there, the factoid says go either OFTC or FreeNOTE. And it's about 140 each. That's the biggest non-English language channel I could find so far. I could have easily missed some. And the next ones are French, Spanish and Italian with about roughly like 6,200. If there's a parenthesis, well, I'll put up the slides later on if you want so you can check it out. But if there's a parenthesis, that means it's especially on FreeNOTE, it means that if you go to that channel like Hashtabian-FR, you get auto-forwarded to another channel. I think in this case it's HashtabianFR and there's 110 people in there. So more than on OFTC, even though the factoid talks about OFTC for example. So there's a couple of things. I mean, I didn't just wind there and gather the statistics so I haven't fixed up stuff yet. But there's certainly a couple of things where there's glaring omissions like, well, Russian seems to be okay. But for example, there's some channels which are really much more on FreeNOTE than on OFTC. So the factoid should probably say, well, you should go to FreeNOTE. Because, oh yeah, I forgot. So the factoid database is for both networks. It's the same database. So we can't just invoke one factoid on FreeNOTE and the other one on OFTC. So that's why I'm saying it might be a problem. Somebody on OFTC asked about Italian support and they just get told to get to Hashtabian-IT. So there's only like 18 people on OFTC, whereas there's about like 60 on FreeNOTE. So, and we don't specifically say to go to FreeNOTE. And actually what also is what surprised me a bit is that apart from those major languages, maybe Russian as well, everything else is rather low level. So even Danish, Polish, Portuguese, even I was surprised that there's so few, and Hashtabian-BRS, so few people. Maybe there's another one somewhere, which we don't know about. But from the amount of people who are speaking Brazilian coming on our channel, I assume that the Brazilian IRC community would be much bigger, there's only 20 people on both networks. So that was a bit surprising. Of course, there's also Portuguese, but there's only two people. And there's a lot of channels which are like virtually empty. So that's also a bit of a problem. If you tell them that go to the Greek channel, there's some Greek speaking person and they tell, well, go to the Greek channel and it turns out there's only like five people there. It might take hours to actually get their issue addressed and usually users give up after a couple of minutes because they're not like regular users, they're not adjusted to hanging around in a channel for hours waiting for an answer. I mean, I know it, having been on IRC for quite a couple of years, if you go to some low level channel, you have to hang around for a couple of hours. But of course, the users might not figure that out and they just leave after 10 minutes. So the probability of them getting any support in hash, Debbie and GR, for example, is rather low, I guess. So yeah, and then at the bottom, also a bit surprising is that, for example, for Norway and Belgium, there's no people at all. And maybe that's also a bit of a problem because actually the factoid is not a two-letter factoid. So if people asking about Norwegian, we wouldn't, there is no NO factoid, I think. As far as I can tell, it's like Debbie and NO or something, somebody who set it up. And the regulars wouldn't figure it out. I mean, they would just say, well, sorry, no NO factoid, bad luck, and can't tell them anything. So maybe that's also why people don't get forward there. I don't know, but anyway, it's no people in there. So there's a couple of channels also, which we forward to, which there's no people, like Debbie and Czech, Bulgarian, virtually nothing in Indonesia. There's three people in India, one of them being Bubule. So it's, actually I was really surprised that there's, in some areas, there's so few people. Okay, and just to summarize that a bit, now the question is, can we sort of like make this a bit more useful? Because as I said, we don't really know. If we send people to Bulgaria, to the Bulgarian channel, do they actually get help? Even if we send them to the French channel, do they actually get help? Or will they just get laughed about because they have a stupid problem or so? They used to be, for example, singling out the French a bit, or I can also sing out maybe the Germans a bit, because that's the two channels I know in the French channel, and I don't remember which one it was, but there was a French support channel which had a bot, which automatically kicked people who said lol, they got kicked banned for saying lol. And that's really something which I'm not so comfortable with if I'm sending people there who want Debian support. So that's also something which we don't do in Hashtabian. So if somebody speaks really childish or really leads speak, well, we accept it to some degree. We might say, well, you know, it's not so great, but we accept it if they need help. So yeah, what could we do? I mean, maybe, I don't know whether a single coordinator or something is useful. Maybe I would like to, at this point, get some feedback, whether people of you think that it's an issue at all, or whether we should just keep on doing this, or what do people think? Is there any opinions yet? Is there any opinions on IRC maybe? There were two people. Raise your hands again, please, because, okay. Okay, so, do you hear me? Yeah. Okay. I have some ideas about IRC non-English support. So the first one is you have told about some Spanish people asking for, there is someone that is Spanish speaking, okay, that speaks Spanish. So they say, oh, you should go to Debian-es. So, I don't know if it can be done, but there could be an IRC bot that tracks IEP addresses from people, detect from which country they are, and they send private message to them, so that they say, you seem to be Spanish, please go to Debian-es, or whatever. This bot should have a way to communicate to it so that you can register yourself as an English user so that the next time you log in to Free Note or OFT, you are not asked once more again, you are not asked again to look into Debian-es. That's the first idea. So, the second idea is about, it's not quite related to IRC support, but it is related somehow. So, last year or two years ago, I met some Spanish KDE developers, so I asked them how did they develop, and what I learned is that they used English KDE, so they were using English KDE, and because they said that it was easier to them to report bugs, because everyone works with the English development version of KDE. So, in my opinion, this fact implies that they are less likely to be found, these Spanish developers, they are less likely to be found on a specific Spanish KDE channel. That might not be true, but I think it matters. Well, can I say something to that? Just a remark. So, one thing also you have to always keep in mind is that, as I said, Hash Debian is supposed to be a genuinely support channel, whereas we have a separate development channel and we have a separate social channel for developers or users, for English language. But on the other hand, I guess for a lot of these, even, I mean, I know for German, there's a development channel, but Hash Debian DE is also sort of a social channel, and maybe Hash Debian ES is like a support developer and a social channel, one in all. So, that's also something I have to keep in mind, that not every language specific channel is just a support channel, there might also be developers on it, or people talking socially. And certainly, it's a problem that... I mean, of course, even if developers are not there, I mean, support, you don't really need to be a developer. You can just be an advanced user to do support or just a regular user. Just saying that, yeah. Okay, so go on, please. So, finally, my first idea or whatever, in my own experience as a Spanish user, I know how to speak English quite well or well, and I sometimes try to make the question in the Spanish channel so that it is alive. And the most of the times, you don't get a quick answer, or if it's a very complicated, a very complex problem, you don't get an answer. So, then you try to answer the same question in English, in the English channel, English RBC channel, and you get a quite great answer. So, I'm not saying anything, it's just my experience in this field. So, as you... there's some work to be done to improve this non-English RBC support, indeed. So, that's it. Okay, thanks. Okay, I am a regular from Hashtabian.es in Freenote, also an off-TC network, and I can talk about the both channels. The channel Freenote has a lot of users, I think they never migrated to off-TC, and it's mostly a social channel, and there is technical related question, but the channel is more social than technical. I see that because I keep hanging up on that channel for a long time. And there is a problem with the other channel on off-TC network, there's not so much users, right now there's 27 people joining on the channels, and mostly of them, as I always do, are inactive, just been sitting there. Then when you guys from Hashtabian redirect users to the ES, they never get an answer, because there's nobody able to help there. Right, and actually I think that's one of the things that I'd like to address and so far as maybe it would be possible to have one person from the Spanish community being in contact and telling us, well, it doesn't make sense to send people to Freenote, you should update that factoid or so, or hey, we all moved somewhere else, and also maybe, or just really go to Freenote, and even if they don't really get help from Freenote, it's not a problem maybe to use a forum or a mailing list or something, because right now it's really like a black hole, right? So we send people like, okay, there's an English Spanish channel, let's send people there, but as I said, it might be just a social channel, it might be a development channel, and the questions might not be answered, so we should think, that's a good idea, thinking also non-ISC stuff, if they're not able to, I guess it's always the best if they're able to speak that channel, and if they understand the answer, that's probably best for them, but if they don't speak English, yeah. Yeah, maybe too, I mean the best thing would be for people who know exactly what the state is in each language to just take control of that factoid, I mean I know all these factoids, the actual bit in Spanish or in French or in Tagalog or whatever is actually written by somebody who knows what's going on, or new at some point in time, so it'd be best if somebody who is aware of what the support options were in each different community could fix it so that it's most appropriate for getting support for that community. Another idea that could be easy is to add in the factoid that you use to point the people to the right channel, add an Wiki site, you are pointing to a Wiki site, and every community has to go there and point if there is the IRC supports kind of that, they should point to a forum or mailing list or whatever. Okay, that's also a good idea. And also the Wiki will have mailing list pointers for the community for that language. Right, yeah. Another idea is make a notice in the mailing list, for example in Spanish there's a lot of people in the Debian Spanish Leash often make a lot of questions and try to get the same question, the same question, the same question. Maybe in the IRC channel in Spanish the question is very solved very fast. Maybe another idea is get in the bottom of each message and try to get help in the IRC Debian Spanish channel. If you actually get help in the IRC Spanish channel for that area. I mean something also we could think about is I think this deep package. I mean also of course I understand there is like at least for example there is a policy of no bots which is agreed upon by the regulars, but I think having like a semi-official bot which has this kind of knowledge because for example this deep package bot really has great knowledge. I mean it's getting regularly maintained by the regulars and there are experts in that so if you ever ask like how do I enable PHP on an Apache tool and you get help by that. Maybe we could also have language specific bots for that if somebody asks like a frequently asked question in Spanish and then maybe some people who know don't answer because it's just so much like they rather talk about other stuff but if it's just like three letters in a bot message and then the bot answers actually that might be lower the barrier to answering the questions. It could be something we could think about or it must be something that the particular community thinks about because of course building that knowledge for a while. And also what I thought about is whether it makes sense to have the deep package bot on non-English channels and sort of answer or like only have the English factoids but maybe that also makes sense for some Spanish people and then if they don't understand somebody can translate it maybe, I don't know whether that makes sense or not. Well hello, okay. Well this is one of the channel operators in Debian.es Debian.es in OFTC and well I don't want to focus this talk just on the Spanish channel because I think this is more general talk but well having I have some opinion on the status of the channel I could share with you all now or a little later but regarding the deep package topic I don't know what's the policy on bots in OFTC I suppose it's supported since the Dash Debian channel already has one the deep package and works quite well. I would like to have one of those in Debian.es because I think it's quite useful. We could talk about the implementation slowly The problem is actually the content I guess. There's several years of knowledge in the English Spanish speaking version so I see that reproducing everything in German or Spanish even if that's a major probably doesn't make sense for Greek at all. So the solution which is I think we can find some volunteers and start translating all those factoids giving them rights to do so and that as a start. One problem is if you look at the database there's like thousands of factoids like people made up because everybody it's not restricted so everybody can add a factoid and you can do it in private and you can do some auditing of those factoids. So just to tell somebody like translated there's so much noise say in a factoid that it's a bit difficult to just go that way. Maybe it's possible just to sort by a frequency of getting it addressed because obviously there is a couple of factoids which are like invoked all the time and if it's not something non-related to support then you can just translate those at the beginning or start from the top then it's maybe easier. It will take time surely but as a start we need one vote. So I think I don't want to focus the conversation on just this topic we can talk later but well another point is that what's I have a little more clear what's the issue with the free-node channels I don't consider them official and my point of view is that all those people who actually want support should move to OFTC Well I think every community has to decide for themselves so at least the hashtag and the regulars we decided to support both we understand that the official Debian network but we still think that hash Debian on free-node is also an official Debian channel so if people are talking at misbehaving or like disruptive I still think it's Debian's like not maybe reputation but it's sort of like reflex on Debian so I think at least hash Debian is official every community has to make up their minds for that and for example I haven't been in hash Debian DE on free-node for years so I don't know whether you have anything to say so I don't know there's certainly the same amount of people in hash Debian DE on free-node as on OFTC for the german speaking channel so I'm german but yeah it's unclear how the german community is doing but if you pay attention to the amount of people on each channel you can see that there's a big step from Debian from hash Debian to the rest of the channel so this implies that we have surely lack of resources so I don't feel that we could support both networks we could see on each language but I think on OFTC it's the best thing to do because from my point of view there's a lot of noise in the free-node channel especially on the Debian Spanish channel and well I don't mean those people to go the house and leave the channel but I think that we could control better or help better in the OFTC channel because it's still noise but it's nothing compared to the other and that's one of the points that I would like to start working on I started with the channel not much time ago maybe some months but we are not still covering all the time sounds because from the Spanish channel we have a problem because we have Spain the most of America so it's difficult focusing on both time sounds there's an Argentinian channel but I think it's much smaller than the Spanish one I don't know if there's any other I didn't find any other Latin American specific channels maybe there's one from Mexico for example just to point out that we saw it in my opinion for example we saw that once we shut down Hashtab in devil and everybody moved to OFTC I thought that the noise was also going up it was much better signal to noise ratio before I don't want to concentrate on that it's a whole other issue but you always have to keep in mind if you shut down one channel it could be that a lot of people want to see and then it's really hard to police or not to police but to moderate so what you could maybe do is just keep the free note channel as a really social channel and tell every user even those who ask in Hashtab that support is only done in OFTC and split it up a bit like that and people who are interested in social issues or socializing I guess they are able enough to join a free note for that and use both networks if they want to and I think that's a good question about the development status I think as you have told before that those channels are specifically focused for user support and maybe we could have some links with developers and if we come across with some development question we could forward them the issue but well they should stay user support in my humble opinion and well surely there may be difficult questions and we are not able to address them well that's life so there's always questions in Hashtab that you can answer sure it's the best effort thing if you really need an answer you should pay for support somewhere I guess because for example Hashtab is both a development and a social channel at this point and for example I just talked to Jordy yesterday so the Catalan channel there's only five people on it but they have a development social and user support if any users are actually there so that's a bit of a problem well so I just want to go through some of these ideas that I had and maybe we can discuss them then so as I said maybe a single coordinator for all this stuff is a bit overblown I don't know if people think it's something we could do I think I feel sort of responsible a bit as a Hashtab channel operator that user support in non-English channels is like functional or at least people are get redirected to the proper forum something which I haven't actually thought about so I said if there's no Greek ISC channel then they should maybe ask the Greek user support list if there's any or at least the Greek maybe there's a web forum or something where they can ask for help in Greek what we could have as I said what would be really nice is have maybe a Debian developer or like a regular and a well-known person of that language who feels responsible as a contact to the Hashtabian operators not to blame or feel responsible but just as a contact if there's trouble so we can work it out because the other thing of course is if somebody says well I don't get help in Hashtabian FR or something or in Hashtabian DE I can't just go there and say hey hey I'm from Hashtabian so please report or something it would be much better if somebody we know somebody who obviously speaks English we could have as a contact for maybe some of the channel operators for example I already speak but maybe for sake of neutrality it makes sense to have somebody else from Hashtabian DE being that contact person we have to figure that out so that would be one possibility that they are a contact person in case of problems or they also maintain update the factoid I thought about having maybe a Hashtabian internationalization support or localization but I'm always confused so whatever is more appropriate channel for some coordination I don't know what that makes a lot of sense because it might be really low traffic but maybe it's a good thing I mean people don't like to join another channel but we could try maybe whether it works out as I said maintain a wiki there was already the idea of having a wiki list for every language area that makes also a lot of sense maybe there is already some sort of something that I don't know whether Debian has really addressed as a project like local support I know that Ubuntu did it pretty early on having local teams but Debian hasn't so much stepped up maybe I don't know maybe I'm just missing it I haven't really checked before I have to admit and also something which we should do like what I did now is periodically check for defunct channels so there is I think this Indonesian channel I remember a couple of months ago a person who seemed to be really active or really enthusiastic about Indonesian support and then they put the factoid in and made it aware but it's empty there's nobody there maybe now it's somebody these numbers there from like 36 hours ago and I haven't really updated them yet so certainly there's some amount but if there's nobody there 36 hours ago that means that at least at some point it's just empty so it doesn't make sense to have a factoid for that channel I guess yeah and the other thing that I like to suggest but which is a bit more of a controversial thing is having like shared guidelines shared guidelines sort of like what I said before like if it's a support channel it should be just support and no social stuff figuring out what is off topic actually I haven't talked about that before so what is off topic and hashtag being is anything which is non-debian distribution like even Knopix is mostly off topic Ubuntu is off topic so if people from Hash Ubuntu come to us because they don't get help in Hash Ubuntu we just can't I mean we figured out with the regulars that Hash Debian only does Debian support it's I mean they're doing it on their free time and it's not our responsibility and it's just so to say we said okay we don't do Ubuntu support and it also makes a lot of sense because the Ubuntu packages are frequently different they are using different libraries and the kernel is totally different so we can't really support it because I mean of course and always people say well it's the same thing like Apache is the same but we just say okay we can't support that so that is off topic and yeah also programming questions are off topic special weird hardware questions are off topic and we just tell people to go to the appropriate channel and I don't know whether it makes sense to have like some shared guidelines or at least baseline that says okay Debian is not doing any Ubuntu support in all the channels or so people can have some expectations because also I mean if people go to Hash Debian and they get helped or they get then or say we support people who seem to be a bit slow or not even if they didn't read the documentation yet or didn't Google it we try to help them in Hash Debian but if we refer them to say Hash Debian whatever and there they say well fucking Google it and get a kick ban or something then it's not very consistent so I'm not sure I mean I agree that it's different it's a heavy issue or something well maybe we could talk to these areas or these localized channels and then agree on some basic guidelines like not kick banning people immediately or trying to be reasonable with these or having also like a policy of first muting them or something like that yeah that's what I also want to talk I don't know whether there's any opinion about that mostly Spanish people no oh yes please I have some sort of idea it has nothing to do with what you have just talked about but you know when we request for Debian for people to help Debian we say you don't have to to know programming skills to be a computer geek in order to help you can translate you know menu strings you can design new images for Debian logo whatever what about IRC support translators so that if a question does not get answered in Spanish channel in 20 minutes someone offers the guy who asked the question so that he translates the question and asks it at oh that's an interesting idea I am I haven't been I do not frequent so much Debian dash so I do not know if this happens right now or if it does not happen yeah right it's also a bit difficult for me because hash Debian DE is rather big and usually people get I mean there's a lot of knowledgeable people in there so they get help so that's certainly something that we could think about of course then again it needs somebody who in a reasonable amount of time reacts to that question forward to it and certainly I also think that it's one of the things that we could as I guess yesterday a couple of talks about how you can help Debian and even if you don't program or do packaging you can still help Debian a lot by doing user support okay I believe I think that there might be some Spanish talking people in the Spanish channel and maybe from the other support channel in our language that might see this on video later so they should actually join to the channels and just sit there because I try to promote the channel every time I have the opportunity sorry the hash Debian ES which one? hash Debian ES and I believe that will work for another people for another language because I once sat for a while trying to learn Portuguese in Debian VR but there was no talking so I didn't learn anything and the other thing is that maybe we should talk with the people from the of the network because at least in hash Debian ES channel there are frequently but some people that are just behavior badly and we don't have any channel operators at this not active the question is that on Debian ES they are channel operators but well thank you most of the time we are not paying attention so just an invocation I'm also working towards that because the people who's already channel operators or master they don't have time to take care of the channel and as I told before I started organizing that there's still a lot of work to do because we are not much of us and most of the time we're working we're doing whatever and also there's a time zone so we're not paying attention to people who's talking on the American time zones so I can't do anything and well there are volunteers who will get in operator rights I hope soon and I expect that they will act soon but the main problem on Debian ES sorry oh that's it sorry and the main problem on the channel is most people are silent most of the time there's not much people and that implies that there's not much people knowing the answer so I think the channel is useful but it is still low I think it is it used to be but it's still low but we can compare in any way with the main Das Debian because the knowledge and the people I just want to suggest something because certainly I just want to say that it's really this bang ops command in hash Debian is really helpful because for example I have a secondary C client when I'm working and it's just ignoring everything in hash Debian except messages to myself which is usually when somebody invokes the ops command and then I just go on the channel and review and operate it but I'm not having to follow it all the time because if you have to follow a channel all the time so in order to step in if there's trouble that's really difficult but if you're able to just act on somebody saying well this is wrong then you have like a shared attention to it and then not all the operators have to think about it all the time except if there's really trouble if they have anything else to do I mean of course if they have time it's nice if they can follow a channel but sometimes they can so this special ops command is rather useful and the other thing I wanted to say is that also when we moved IRC Debian orc it has to be said that hash Debian before was very much empty as well before IRC Debian pointed to it and there was sort of like an issue what to do about the channel operators and we sort of said ok people who are operators and free nodes should also be operators and OVTC but maybe also Debian should have a I mean I haven't addresses at all but like how to become a channel operator who decides if there's some trouble on some language channel about there's some operators who go AWOL or who go thinking that they should enforce their own policies which might not be in line with what the project wants as support if we want anything then who is going to arbitrate that as the DPL is there somebody responsible for IRC channel operators or something we have to think about maybe and I don't really have a good answer to that but that's also something I wanted to say right so it's is there any please you mentioned to translate the factoids that would be very useful for people that speak other languages different to English package or somebody package the data somebody would translate or put that in a repost I think if we do that we have to preprocess everything I mean right now it's a SQL database or something right so we can certainly get the data out but we should present it somewhere in a way that's appropriate as I said maybe in terms of the fact that being invoked so then we should filter out the ops factor for example or the DE factor all the language specific stuff but then maybe NVIDIA as a factor would be number one and you can translate at first and then something like quote of the day 317 can be left out it's not invoked all the time as I said there's a lot of noise but if we go from there and then have some translation framework maybe and put it back in I don't know we should that's certainly something we should think about just the question is how to discuss it afterwards there is no real maybe we can discuss it on debian project maybe I should write it up after debconf or something and invite people to work with Don or people who are doing it to set it up and then announce it and stuff and then maybe also like there were certainly a couple of really good ideas how to improve stuff and trying to converge on something so it gets a bit better for everybody I mean also it could be that it's just working well and there's no big problems I mean yeah so is there any more questions anything else to discuss any input nothing from ISC I think no except for lunch well I think thanks everybody for participating and yeah we try to keep in touch and figuring out how we can do it a bit better thanks a lot