 عمل الارحابي لا يمكن السقوط عنه وسترد كيد الكائد وشماثة الشامك مجموعة قليلة مريضة الآن سقطت الأخنعة عن وجو هذه الأطراف حزني وعلم كبيران إلى مواجهات مؤسفة الشبان ليس لهم زن بابدا هم صغار سن أدمت قلبي كما أدمت قلب كل سهوري لا رئاس بدل حيات المحققة للانتقال السلمي للسلطة أنا لو عندي منصب لو عندي لو اني رئيس لو كنت لوحد الاستقال على وجوهكم فأنا أكون في هذا الموقع بلاعم من الشعب وعندما أترك هذا الموقع يكون أيضاً برغبة من هذا الشعب أفندب أنا وجود أنا سأذهب إلى أمريكا مشاهدو العربية أهلاً وسهلاً بكم لهذه الحلقة نقاشية التي نأتيكم بها من المنتهد الاقتصاد العالمي من داووس وننقش فيها واقع ومستقبل العالم العربي بعد عام على الثورات التي صنع التاريخ جديداً لمنطقة الشرق الأوسط لغة رسمية بالمنتهد الاقتصاد العالمي هي الإنجليزية وبتالي سيكون نقاشنا اليوم بالإنجليزية ليديين جانتلمن العربية أريد أن أتبعكم للمنتهد من this panel التي تتكلم about the implications of the Arab Spring which is shaping a new future for the Middle East a future that has risks and opportunities on the economic, political and social fronts to discuss this topic we have with us today our panelists Dr. Robert Hormatz is the US Undersecretary of State for Economic Energy and Agricultural Affairs also with us is Mr. Ali Babajan who is the Deputy Prime Minister for Economic and Financial Affairs of Turkey Mr. Mohamed Boulif is the Minister of Governance and General Affairs of Morocco also with us is Dr. Mustafa Nabli who is the Governor of the Central Bank of Tunisia and Mr. Ibrahim Dabdoub who is the Group CEO of the National Bank of Kuwait you will all be having the chance later on to address your questions to our panelists but first of all I would like to start with a question to Mr. Ali Babajan because we have seen an increasingly important role for Turkey in the Middle East in the aftermath of the Arab Spring the question is there have been so many setbacks so far if we were to look a little bit forward what is it that makes you worried about the events and what gives you optimism? well our region North Africa and Middle East is going through a historical transition process this process in our view is long overview it was something already expected maybe we could not guess the exact time of this transition to start but this is now already an irreversible process and also an inevitable process it is quite homegrown so it was actually happening in a very natural way so there are no foreign forces or other no foreign intervention so it was quite homegrown and it happened by the domestic social dynamics of many countries but of course the pressure was already there expectations were already increasing people were already asking for more for better and the regimes sooner or later had to take into account the aspiration and the will of their citizens and what's happening right now is there is a huge social interaction going on not only within every country but across the Arab world because there are many many countries where people speak the same language and every single individual is right now like a small broadcasting station they just tweet few words few sentences and hundreds of thousands of young people read it at the same time so there is huge interaction going on a very small satellite dish is enough to receive hundreds of TV channels so it was no longer possible to continue with a closed regime suppressing the people in a way where population is already becoming an inevitably open population open society but Mr. Babadon it hasn't been smooth we have seen a lot of setbacks and this is why I ask you if we were to look forward what are the things that make you worry as Turkey first of all I think it is going to be very important not to use any kind of force or aggression against the people themselves and it's very important for this transition to happen in an orderly way it was very important for the leaders to lead the change themselves rather than being pushed for change and it is right now a time where there are challenges you are right but on the other hand there are also huge opportunities and when and if this transition happens and finishes in a healthy way this is going to provide an enormous opportunity for the whole region because the region has a huge potential natural resources a young population and also a huge possibility to do trade and investments in the region and with other parts of the world we will be discussing the economic aspect but I'd like to hear also from Dr. Bob Hormats as well what is it that makes you worry going forward well I think that almost by definition these changes are not going to be smooth and in virtually no period where you have had revolutionary change has it been a straight line from a revolution to a smoothly running democracy in the United States those of you who are familiar with the American history we had was known as the Articles of Confederation after 1776 they were a complete failure and after several years of failure they had to rewrite the Constitution in 1783 so we can't expect this to be a smooth process but I think the key point is that the people of the region who are engaged in this process they're demonstrating their desire for dignity for opportunity for their governments to listen to their aspirations about political participation and economic participation so I think by and large it is a very healthy process of the people speaking for themselves as Ali says it's a homegrown process it's not one that is caused by outsiders outsiders should not interfere with it let the people of the region express themselves but interference happened in Libya and go through the process well that wasn't in the revolution that was because the government was suppressing the people and a lot of countries decided that there were lots of lives at stake but now as the process the democratic process unfolds there's not interference it was only because of the violence perpetrated by the government against the people that there was foreign pressure that was and foreign involvement but as the democratic process evolves people will make mistakes they need the opportunity to make mistakes they will learn from those mistakes and I think that the general notion of a democratic reform process a more market oriented reform process where people have a chance to participate in forming their government are they going to do it perfectly is it going to be smooth probably not but in no revolution I'm aware of has it been smooth let the people do what the democratic process is now enabling them to do which is to express themselves they've had elections in two countries their political changes in other countries of the region Libya will have to work itself out it's a little more complicated but this is a healthy process we can't be impatient we can't be overly involved we have to support the political and economic change you mentioned a lot of points that can be controversial especially I mean I didn't want to talk about Syria now we will be going back to it but since you mentioned foreign intervention that it happened in Libya for a purpose because there was killing of the people well the same thing happened is happening in Syria today Syria and Libya are very different countries with very different situations and I think just because a number of countries NATO countries were engaged in Libya doesn't mean that they can be effectively engaged or should be engaged in Syria each country is different I think in Libya it worked out quite well it gave the people of Libya an opportunity Syria is a much more complicated much different set of circumstances I'm sure we have a lot to say about that because I mean there are so many different opinions on what is happening in Syria but let's continue with the general evaluation of what has been happening so far today with Mr. Mohamed Boulif I'd like to discuss a little bit Morocco because it was a different different case totally different case in Morocco it was pre-emptive there was reform to the constitution before basically the uprising happened in the street you were on the opposition side now you are represented in the government do you think that today the reform that has happened is it sufficient for the people of Morocco are they satisfied with that change or they need more yes I'm sure that what happened in Morocco it is possible that it is considered a special experience in the street what we call in the street Morocco I'm sure that what happened they had to get in a group of Arab countries and it was much later Morocco the king of Morocco was able to to get the first signs for the movement of the Moroccan street on the 20th of April he was able to get the movement and the dynamic of the people in the countries that are surrounding him so he decided to talk in the 9th of March then came the change of the constitution then came the elections that he was able to have the right to vote among the majority of the Islamic party to get the first rank more than 30 in the 100 of the positions and he is now leaving the government in the constitution of course that we didn't get to him the others in Egypt and in Tunisia and Libya through what happened we are imagining that the movement in Morocco the silent movement first the support for him it was the social movement that he had to take the same decisions from the side of the king then this movement we see what we see in the countries that we did aって where I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I In In in in Mark make و تتحلي رئيس الحكومة أن يسير الحكومة بطريقة تكاد تكون مئة في المئة دون تتدخلات مباشرة أو غير مباشرة من خلال هذه الإصلاحات و من خلال هذه التجربة الجديدة و بالدعم الشعب و قلبي بالدعم الشعب آخر إجراء ميداني حصل منذ أكثر من 15 يوم يقول بأن حكومة العبن العبن كيران عندها تمنية و تمنية في المئة من التأييد الشعبي وتنتظر يأمل يأمل المغاربة كلهم فالمغاربة الآن يريدون أن يجربوا هذا الأمل و يتمنون أن الحكومة القادمة التي نحن جزء منها ستنجح في تحقيق ما لم يحقق أخر في الدول المجاورة نعقد الأمد على أنه بالفعل سنأتي بالجديد و إلا و إلا لا قدر الله سيكون مصير المغارب هو مصير الدول المجاورة هذا ما لن نتمنه لبلدنا هي المشكلة على كل أن عندما يكون في high level of expectations توقعات عالية على كل أن I move on now to Dr.Mustafa Nabli Dr.Nabli in Tunisia basically it was the smoothest transition that we witnessed in the Arab world yet some still think that the political process is not going in the right direction Why is that? Listen, this is how I would compare where we were last year and now I think one year ago when the revolution started and things I think you are dreaming and we are dreaming with our feet in the sky I think now we are still dreaming but we are dreaming with our feet in the ground It's not so easy to do these political transformations It's very difficult and very tough So we have had relatively speaking a smooth transition transformation at the political level but we are still not there I think somebody was asking what democracy is are elections a democracy? No, elections are just one part of democracy democracy is a lot more and why we still have some way to go I think all of specialists about transitions democratic transition emphasized the following emphasized the need during the transitions to bring people together to emphasize what makes people live together not what divides them and that's where we are still not there yet because I think what we have seen recently more things that are about what divides people we are seen at the social level at the political level but there is criticism here that the party that has won the elections basically the Islamist party that there is a new phase now for Tunisia and this is why there is division about that because Tunisia was very secular it was promoting the rights of women they have the best rights in the Arab world Tunisian women So isn't that what is making or causing the division I don't know whether it is I would say whether it's the party which is in government now or whether it is other parties other parts of society which are trying to play that role So we are seeing more divisions along those lines because of the role of women and the private freedoms individual freedoms and rights and so on all of this is in question about school, about education the content of education the wearing of the niqab and all of those things we are divisive and these are taking too much to my mind too much weight in the society today while we are still fragile in this transition while we should have been emphasizing more what brings people together other than what divides people and that's where we have the tensions today Mr. Dabdoub, allow me I have a follow-up question to Dr. Hormat before we go on to the business segment because we will continue with the issue of the parties who won the government and how does that affect business but Dr. Nabli mentioned something that is very important does election, free election, mean democracy the United States has always been an advocate of democracy is this the form of democracy that you were advocating we did free elections and we saw who won those elections and now there's a rewriting of the constitution is full democracy achieved by that well, certainly free elections are a very important part of that but I agree it's not the only part of that I think that the nature of the constitutional process and the results of that process will be very important to creating the liberties of people protecting freedom of speech giving opportunities for women opportunities for minorities the parties that are participating in the political process agreeing to give up violence as a means of exerting political pressure all these things are I think important parts of a thriving democracy but if we were to look at what's happening today basically in Egypt for example you have the Muslim Brotherhood Party won a big part of the elections and then there are the Salafists so basically if there is any rewriting of the constitution today it is being rewritten by a parliament that was won over by a majority of Islamic parties so is that the way constitutions should be written how do you then protect the rights of the minorities, of women I think the one thing we should definitely not do is prejudge the outcome of that process the people of Egypt have spoken through the ballot box I myself when I was in Cairo had a chance to meet with the economic team of the FJP the Muslim Brotherhood Party and we had a very pragmatic practical conversation it was about economic issues but I don't think that we should automatically assume that the constitutional process is going to come out one way or another I think we have to let these parties or the constitutional convention that the parliament will elect decide what the constitution is and not prejudge it that's I think critical we should not prejudge what they're going to do and my conversation with the FJP economic team was a very pragmatic one so we'll see what they do but we in America should not prejudge that process Mr. Nabi very quickly to follow up on this one just one word I think it's clear everybody knows I mean democracy constitutions cannot and should not be written by any majority a constitution but a consensus a national consensus which should include everybody not only the majority those who have a majority at a given point in time because it's written for decades for centuries to go and it's not the majority of today what should decide about the constitution of one century from now and I think one critical element is the protection of minority rights it's not that the majority should work with the minorities both to promote the constitution to write it and protect the rights of minorities under the constitution that's a very important part of democracy Tunisia also is writing is in the process of writing a new constitution but Mr. Dabdoub you have a presence in Egypt through a subsidiary of yours that is operating in Egypt and this debate is going on there you as a businessman are you comfortable at the way things are going and what is it that worries you from a business perspective and from a political perspective as well the way I look at it from a bigger picture basically is as they say in the United States the whole reason is it's the economy stupid basically about as easy killed himself simply because he was unemployed and I think to us in the Arab world it's a question of the economy it's a question of jobs the Arab world has to create a lot of jobs in order to be able to give really these these young boys enough opportunities to be able to live in a good life this is my opinion as far as as the reason behind all this now as far as Egypt is concerned we are maybe a little bit optimistic in the long run but in the short term we are not do you think that a businessman would commit money investments in Egypt today well let me tell you one thing first of all I think the aggregate demand is down consumption is down and if the eyes are down we think that Egypt basically I don't want to be too negative because maybe there are Egyptians here and I don't want to to become enemies with some of my friends but basically were not terribly optimistic in the short term in the long term Egypt is still an 80 million people and they have the resources and they have the capability if they are well managed so in the long run yes we are optimistic this is a movement that has started not only in Egypt but of course Egypt being the the largest country in the Arab world it's the most important but it will never stop this is a globalized word really and the street has taken over no matter what the transition maybe from autocracy to democracy will take some time it might take some time but at the end it will happen so maybe we will have to be a little bit more patient but in the long run yes I am optimistic Mr. Dabdoub we are going to continue this discussion but we have to stop on a short break and when we resume we will be opening the floor to questions this is just a very short break few seconds please stay put three we started talking about the business level and this is why I would like to address my question to Mr. Ali Babacan basically this is on both the political level as well I mean everyone is looking at the Turkish model as a successful model in the region however the Turkish model is based on a secular state and we saw Mr. Erdogan go to Egypt and we saw Mr. Erdogan go to Egypt and we saw Mr. Erdogan go to Egypt and advocate at the beginning of the Arab Spring that the model doesn't work without a secular state and there was some controversy around that would it be successful if it weren't the Turkish model if it weren't based on that secular state this transition as I said is going to be extremely important for many countries and every country will have its unique process the process in every country is going to be quite different from each country depending on the country-specific circumstances but no matter what I think there are some basic ideas basic principles here which has to be taken into consideration the first one is when we talk about a democratic system it actually means the wheels and the aspirations of the people reflected into the way how that country is run and that's probably one of the definitions which we can make another important aspect is rule of law making sure that the judicial system works the rules are written and whatever is written is implemented that's I think another important aspect to have a functioning state mechanism fundamental rights freedoms these are also very important issues the state should be at equal distance to different ethnicities to different religions and religious sects although you may call the region as the Arab world or the Arab region there are many different fractions many different groups of people different minorities in different countries different religions and religious sects also so for for every group it is very important for them to be able to live with the lifestyle they choose to do so and it is very important for them to practice the religion or religious sect that they have faith in and the state should be at a guaranteeing at a guarantor position for those liberties to be fully enjoyed by the citizens of the country when we talk about secularism this word is a little bit dangerous because every country or every group has a different understanding of what we mean by a secular system actually at the essence of secularism as we understand and we are trying to better and better implement in Turkey it is also about religious freedoms I think it is no secret that in many countries in North Africa in Middle East there were also oppression on the religious practice of people people were suppressed and their religious freedoms were one way or another blocked they were not able to express themselves they were not able to also do their social gathering or association and so forth so I think it is very important to have that liberty freedom of expression and freedom of exactly that is also an essential element that we probably should look for in these transition processes a healthy constitution for every country is going to be of course very important being very clear of the setup consensus well of course it is desired if it is possible it is great but on the other hand I think it is going to be important for the international organizations and also the region as a whole to support each other in these processes and you said Turkey is more and more taking is being taken as a model we don't have such an aspiration it is not our intention and so forth but what is happening you have bigger aspirations what is happening everybody who is living in the Middle East knows that Turkey is assuming a bigger and bigger role and it reminds us a little bit of the Ottoman Empire I think that is somewhat of a wrong perception because but we emphasize over and over again that it is very important to conserve to preserve the territorial integrity of the countries also independence of the countries its political unity of the countries we are emphasizing these concepts a lot all throughout the region why is Turkey becoming more influential I think what we are doing in Turkey is becoming a natural source of inspiration for other countries because many many young people many countries in the region observe that now in Turkey Islam and democracy can coexist and function in a better and better way and when this is associated with an economic reform process an economic reform process which is based on competition which is based on free market concepts and an economy model which has also social concerns a strong social lack then this whole composition becomes quite interesting for many countries rather than advice or prescription or rather than preaching teaching I think a functioning example becomes quite effective in many countries let's hear from Mr. Mohamed Boulif because as I mentioned you were on the opposition now you are leading the government the expectations are very high what is your vision for the government I mean we are we were talking here about the secular state do you think that Morocco should should remain a secular state what is your agenda as an Islamist party that has taken over the government now نعم أكيدا الموضوع المتعلق بالعلمانية يمكنوا أن أربطه أيضا بسؤالكم السابق المتعلق بالتدبير السياسي والانتخاب والدستوري لما يصعد إلى الحكم أحزاب إسلامية نحن بالنسبة إلينا في المغرب تصورتنا واضحة عندما نقول حزب إسلامي وأقيسوا حزب العدال والتنمية في المغرب يقول أنه من أكبر الأحزب الدموقراطية وبالتالي ليس هناك تعارض إنما وتعارض في مخيلة البعض تعارض الإسلام أو الأحزاب الإسلامية مع الدموقراطية يمكن أن أقول لك سيدتي أن الحزب الذي اختار وزراءه حتى في كياتير من الدول الغربي التي تدعي أنها دموقراطية نحن في العدالة وقت المفغرب اخترنا داخل مجلس وطني أن نختار وزراءنا فتم الإختيار عبر الإقتراع بالتصويت على من سيتول الحقائب الوزارية ثم إنه أيضا في التأسيس لهذا المنطقة قدمنا أناس وأسماء وكانت من بينهم أمر أواحدة الآن ليه في الحكومة ولكن أسف شريط هناك أمر أواحدة وهي من العدالة والتنمية بين العدالة والتنمية هي الحزب الواحد وبالتالي هذا الشيء الشيء التاني هو ما تفضل به قبل أستاذ ما يتعطى العلمانية العلمانية العلمانيات إن كنت تتحدث عن العلمانية الفرنسية فأنا أرفضها العلماني التي لا تتح للطالبة أن تدخل الجامعة بالحجاب أنا أرفضها بينما في ميدانها أنا أنا معها في ذلك العلمانية وعلمانية نحن في العدالة والتنمية في المغرب بالفعل هناك مؤسسات وهناك استمرار للمؤسسات لا يمكن أبدا أن ندعي على أننا سنقوم بمواراج عد كامل المؤسسات لنخضعها للفلسفة الإسلامية وخلفي الإسلامية الآن الدستور عطا للمعارض حقوقا كبيرة ومنها أن يأتي رئيس الحكومة شهريا إلى مجلس النواوي إلى البرلمان ليقدم حصيلته ويستدار سوى معه فيكل شهر حصيلته فإن هو عراض أن يغير بطريقة سلبية أكيد أن المعارض ستكون لمجابهه و للدفع لم تعد هناك إيديولوجية تتحكم أولاً لا في المصار السياسي ولا في المصار الاقتصادي الآن شباب يريدوا الشغل يريدوا مستوى عيش وخار سنتحدث عن الأجندات الاقتصاديية إيديولوجيات أتصور إن كنت إسلامياً أو إشتراكياً أو الليبيرالياً لن تكون ضد الشغل ون تكون ضحرية المرأة في العمل ولا ولا ولا وبالتالي نحن متفقون على أن الشعب الآن العربي والإسلامي يطلب إنجازات عملية وحسن مستوى خاليلون هم الذين يبحتون عن الهوية وعن الدين وعن الليبيرالياً أعتقد أن هذه المرأة أنت تأكد من الكثير من الذين يتكلمون لك الآن لكن دعونا نفتح الأسئلة إلى الأسئلة لقد دعوني أسئلة إذا كنت لديك أسئلة أو أسئلة هل يمكننا أن نعود على الميكروفون إلى الأسئلة الأولى؟ مصر خالج جناحي شكراً فقط تستمتع إلى إيديولوجياً أنت تتكلم بأسلامية أعتقد أننا, كما مصر بوليفس just said now يجب أن نفكر في المستوى أنه يجب أن نفكر في هذا الأسئلة أنه كان only an economic social issue أمور معيشية التي قرأت هذه الأسئلة نعم، ولكن أسئلة لكل شخصاً أنها قرأت أشياء أخرى التي قرأت إيديولوجياً إيديولوجياً، لا يمكنك أن تأكد إيديولوجياً أعطاء أن أسئلة إيديولوجياً 100%, 150% يجب أن يفعل الأسئلة في أسئلة أسئلة في أسئلة أسئلة قرأت أسئلة إيديولوجياً لأنه لا يوجد إيديولوجياً..." لا توجد إيديولوجياً لا، إذا كنت تتجهب فيه أولئاً نحن يجب أن نفعل نفس لي جميعك one thing that Mr. Dubb Dubb has said and and I have to bring it out because he said in the Dead Sea Meeting about creating jobs King Abdullah II mentioned we need 85 million jobs in the next 7 to 8 years One of the solution that Mr. Dubb Dubb أكثر من معلومات السلامة المساعدة كانت كاملة المساعدة سأمشي المساعدة في المساعدة بأنها تبقى لكن على ذلك عندما كنت أتحدث عن المساعدة لا نتحدث عن المساعدة ونوفر لتدخل ونجح شكرا، سيد جانحي سيد أبدوب، هل تستطيع أن تكون مساعدة بالنسبة؟ شعول أتحدث عن السيد المساعدة بالنسبة لستطيع السيد المساعدة ل why should we put the GCC, at least we did it in Kuwait with Lebanon back in the 80s, we placed deposits with the central bank. Why can the GCC … Because I don't know correct me if I'm wrong but I think the Arab aid has stopped because the negotiations with the IMF were not moving forward. And now I think that they are linked together. The Arabs are independent. Forget the IMF because the IMF is very bureaucratic. سيأتي هنا. أتحدث عن one decision to place deposits with the central bank of Egypt before they lose all their foreign reserves. That's what I'm saying. A role of IMF with the World Bank. The World Bank maybe would talk about development, yes. But now it's very urgent. And this is what I'm trying to say. If there are any Egyptians on the floor, please. I would like to hear an opinion from that perspective. But it doesn't seem that they are with us in the room. Mr. Hamz Al-Khuli had a remark as well. You had a question. You raised your hand. Yes. Hamz Al-Khuli from Saudi Arabia. I raised this question because it's very important. Turkey has played a big role in the last few years in the Islamic and Arab world. And I realized when the Syrian problem started, Turkey was very active. And then we see the role is minimized now. I don't understand why. The case of Syria is every country is also quite peculiar and quite unique. We have tried a lot for many years actually to win Syria, to make Syria part of solutions, not part of problems in our region. We have helped them a lot with their economic reform process. Many, many reforms that they have done actually we worked together. But the political reforms unfortunately did not happen. And there is a very natural dilemma that the regime is now facing because on one hand it's a minority regime trying to overrule the majority. But on the other hand when we talk about Syria and ask from them you need to be more democratic, let's say, more of a representative democracy is needed, more of a parliamentary democracy is needed. Then the minority is of course asking to itself and others what's going to happen to me, what am I going to do. And also with the case of Syria unlike other countries the international community does not have a united stance. But Turkey's position has softened big time because I remember Mr. Erdogan in March was saying that I can't find the code now, but he mentioned that military intervention will happen if the killing continues and goes on. So now Turkey looks like it has softened its position. No, we don't believe in military interventions. No, that's not the exact words that my prime ministers have ever used about the case of Syria. He always said that we are against external intervention to any country. The best is to have the change by the domestic momentum, domestic dynamics. For the case of Syria, we have been vocal for quite some time. We are still so. But then the Arab League started to take more ownership of the process. And then Arab League for the first time probably had the meetings among themselves, had a united stance, a list of sanctions and an observer group to be sent to the country. We thought it would be best to find an Arab-made solution. So the Arab world would find a way out themselves. You're giving a chance now for the Arab League. Exactly. Because we didn't want this to be in a situation where, as you have said, the Ottoman Empire times up, because it's very easily misunderstood, misperceived. So that's why we wanted to be first the Arab League to move and then we followed. For example, for the sanctions, when there was a meeting in Egypt. Yes. I'm sorry, we have to take a short break and continue the discussion, Mr. Babatran. Okay. It seems we have some, we have an Egyptian on the floor and we're going to hear from him. Okay. We're going back from the break. We were talking about Egypt and we asked if there was an Egyptian opinion, someone from Egypt in the floor and it seems Mustafa Abdul Wadood is with us. He just arrived. Where is he? We have Mr. Hamil Musa as well. So let's start with Mustafa because he has a microphone. Mustafa, do you have any comment on the discussion that was happening before? I think, I mean, I've heard a lot of the comments and it's interesting to see the different kind of views on Egypt and I'll address Egypt specifically. And I think one is an Egyptian, but I think there's a different perspective as a private equity investor across emerging markets, Egypt being one of them. And we have historically been investors in Egypt and I'll, you know, summarize by saying we'll continue to be investors in Egypt and I think we don't hold the very pessimistic view that my friend, Brahm Abdul Holtz, that does not mean that there are not challenges. I think the economy is going through a series of challenges. To be fair, Egypt witnessed a very solid period of economic growth in the previous regime. You have to give it that. However, it was perhaps a bit too aggressive at the expense of political and social reform and something had to crack and indeed it did. I think what you will have going forward is a period of lower economic growth. Egypt will need to find its way. I think there's varying degrees of economic illiteracy, perhaps in the current decision-making because it's not a priority. It takes a backseat to the political process, but it will quickly become a forced priority because of the realities on the ground. And I think there is essentially a self-correcting mechanism because Egypt is not a rich country by definition and hence the only way forward is to look at promoting economic growth through private investment both local and international. So I think that reality is set in. I think the discussions with IMF will resume. I think the Arab world will recognize the role as highlighted on the platform here. Thank you, Mustafa. And I think we'll move forward. Mustafa Latsir from Mr. Amr Musa. I will address the question to him because he just came in. Mr. Musa, we were discussing basically the issue of Egypt and we said that there is a little bit of fear that now free elections were held. But free elections does not necessarily mean democracy. And now there is a rewriting of the constitution. Egypt sent a message that it will protect the minority, the interests of the minorities. It will protect the rights of women because we know the nature of the parties that won. Quick reply, please. Thank you very much. Let me first express some difference of views with Mustafa Abdul Wadood. Egypt is not that poor country but Egypt was badly run. Had we got our act together we would have achieved a lot in terms of economy and the all the files of our society. That is the number one. But the rest of what he said was absolutely I do support what he has said. Now the question is that Egypt is in transitional period. We are moving from full dictatorship to full democracy. We have suffered from the way Egypt was run under the previous regime in the last 60 decades, three of them under one, the rule of one man. The indicators are so bad. I was in another panel now. I will give you the chance tomorrow morning to elaborate. You are a speaker on a full panel but very quickly. I need a very quick answer from you on the topic of the constitution. The constitution will certainly be a constitution of the 21st century. All those rights will have to be enshrined. Certainly I agree with you. The rights of all citizens. I do not call them minority. Equal rights to all. It's not a question of Muslims, Christians but all citizens will have to be treated equally and this should be enshrined in the constitution and protected by law. This will take place as for the it has to take place. It cannot be but that. As for women and the rights of women of course this is a new Egypt and things that perhaps would not be achieved in a month or two will be achieved in a year or two. I will have the opportunity to challenge that statement tomorrow morning in the panel that we have together but let's move on now to the economic aspect before our time is over. Of course we want to talk a little bit about the Doveel Partnership and also the NAPEO which is the North Africa Partnership for Economic Opportunity. Dr. Nabli we know that Tunisia and Morocco here are facing problems today because of their reliance and exposure to the EU. So regardless of the political issues there is an economic problem. Add to that the need for creation of jobs for inclusive growth. So where is Tunisia from all that today and what is the situation of the aid that was promised to you? First I think one year after the revolution what turns out to be the case that the cost of the transition the economic cost is much much larger than anticipated. We did not anticipate growth to be negative to the level it was in 2011 in Tunisia and I think the same in other countries so the economic cost was much larger than expected so that's one. Second the global environment has not been supportive. Last year when I was here and there was I said to the advanced countries please do no harm. Actually they have been doing a lot of harm. I mean the Eurozone crisis and the global economic crisis and so on has not been helping us so a negative factor for us growth is negative exports are suffering tourism is suffering and all of that capital markets are a problem and so on so the global economy is not supporting us in addition to our domestic problems of course now third on the Doveel partnership on the global support we have heard a lot of things in the global Doveel partnership big numbers unfortunately this has not been accompanied by any reality on the ground. Hard cash hasn't been delivered. Big words very small acts I have to say and I have had a chance to say to our partners all along whether it's the US and the secretary is here and I say it to our European friends and girlfriends and everybody actually there has been very little financial support forthcoming Let's ask Dr. Thomas. Not talking about the deposits which is the easiest one but any others the only I have to say just for transparency the only financial support that we got in 2011 is support from the World Bank from the African Development Bank and a little bit from the European Union and some from the French Development Organization very small so and the numbers are very very far from what has been discussed and very not very different from Let's hear from Dr. Thomas because he is very much involved in that I have two questions here first of all the DOVIL partnership is it conditional is it conditional on some political I mean milestones or are there any conditions and number two what about the NAPAO is it just technical assistance or will there be money delivered Well let me just make one broad point and then go to the details the broad point is that it's been our view from the beginning that economic reform and political reform are really part of the same process if economic reform moves ahead and countries have a higher level of prosperity and job creation it will make the political reform process easier and vice versa the smoother the political process the more confidence it gives investors domestic investors and foreign investors so part of the DOVIL partnership is to encourage the kinds of political reforms that are in many cases underway already and we're not and cannot impose these reforms on these countries but we can identify some of the reforms that we think we can provide support for technical support for or otherwise on the economic side Ibrahim Daboub made a very interesting point earlier about the Marshall Plan the Marshall Plan was only partly about money it was largely and the genius of it was that it was about collaboration among the countries in that case the countries of western Europe in their own recovery so from an American point of view and indeed from the point of view of all the countries of the DOVIL partnership which include western Europe the United States Canada, Russia and Japan the goal is to try to work with one another to come up with a wide range of efforts to be supportive one of the ways is to improve opportunities for trade between the region and the rest of the world another is to encourage opportunities for trade within the region which can be very helpful there's very little trade except for oil and gas within the Arab world within the Arab world it would unlock enormous opportunities as in the case of southeast Asia where there's a lot more trade among one another the other is to identify ways in which companies can develop supply chain relationships with the region and a lot of companies from the US and Europe and other countries particularly Turkey where the prime minister has actually led delegations of companies to go out to the region the other area that I think is particularly important is small and medium size enterprises this it seems to me if you look at what's happened in many of these countries the big companies did quite well because they were connected to the rest of the world and many of them were connected to the powerful but there wasn't enough assistance for the SMEs but there wasn't enough assistance for the SMEs and there wasn't the question of rule of law they didn't have the opportunity the regulatory benefits they didn't have access to capital so what is needed is internally for these countries to support small and medium size enterprises but also through outside support to help them because first of all it creates a greater degree of democratization in their economies and second they're big job creators and I think those are the elements that are very important in the prosperity of the future unfortunately our time is over this is a televised panel and we have a constraint on time thank you very much for all of our panelists and thank you very much for the audience for being here with us مشاهد العربية شكرا للمتابع و إلى اللقاء