 Hi, my name is Sandy Baird and we're here with my colleague Eric Agnero, who is an expert on Africa, having lived there for many years. He now lives in the United States, but he still follows events in Africa very closely. And what we'll be talking about today is the current crisis in Africa, particularly in the French-speaking parts of West Africa, particularly Niger and Mali and Burkina Faso, right? And the whole region, because, you know, it started spilling over Central Africa, where the Russians are also present. The Wagner group, right? Okay, but before we get there, I would like you to explain the title of our show, which is the New Scramble for Africa. Okay, the New Scramble for Africa. But before we go there, I would like to share a video with our audience, a video that gives us a context. Of the New Scramble for Africa. Yeah, of the New Scramble, and particularly the crisis in Niger. It's from City News. Okay, thank you. As Niger's armed forces ignored a deadline to seed power, thousands rallied in support of the coup that toppled the democratically elected government. Cheers rippled through this 30,000 seat stadium in the capital. As military rulers sounded a defiant note, the block of West African nations, known as Ekoaz, issued an ultimatum to the junta running the country. Stand down and reinstate the deposed president, Mohammed Bazoum, within a week, or face a possible military intervention. But that deadline came and went on Sunday, with Niger's future hanging in the balance. Military leaders have closed Niger's airspace until further notice, as a spokesman accused foreign powers of preparing an attack. The airspace over Niger was empty on Monday, as international airlines begun diverting flights. Many young people have taken to the streets to guard against foreign intervention. He adds they're ready to risk their lives for the new military regime. Neighboring Mali says it and Burkina Faso are sending delegations to Niger to show solidarity. Both countries also run by thintas, declaring they would consider any intervention an act of war against them too. In other parts of the capital people continue to go about their lives as normal, albeit under a cloud of uncertainty. Ekoaz defense chiefs have drawn up plans for use of force. The bloc's heads of state will meet on Thursday to discuss their next steps. Whether a diplomatic solution can be reached remains unclear, but an Ekoaz delegation sent to Niger last week in a bid to resolve the crisis met only with representatives at the airport, not coup leaders themselves. Ekoaz has expressed concerns about the coup having a domino effect in West Africa, where since 2020, three of Niger's neighbors have experienced five coups. For City News, I'm Karen Seolin. OK, so what's going on? Why did you show this video? Just for our audience to know that, you know, there is a coup d'etat in Niger. OK, so Niger was a French colony, correct? Niger was a French colony for like early 1900 to 1960, where all the French colonies got their independence. OK, but French colonies, that was part of what you call the scramble for Africa, correct? Yes. When all the European powers, or rather the richest European powers, France and England in particular, scrambled to take control of Africa, correct? They met at that Berlin conference, where they divided Africa like a take, you know, and the British getting, you know, a huge chunk of Africa going from the northern part to Cape Town, I mean, in the south, and the French got a substantial part of Africa. And then we are experiencing in this part of Africa where, you know, France still holds, you know, grip on, you know, on these former colonies we're experiencing what some people are calling a second wave of decolonization. A second wave also of colonization, in a way. Or colonization. And then a second wave of decolonization. So this involves kind of revolutions, right? This new scramble for Africa, this time, you know, probably involves Russia, China. So a few, I mean, a century and so ago it was only the most powerful powers in Europe. Now Africa wants to do business with other powers, emerging powers. So the Europeans also in America, I mean the US, they feeling threatened by this new situation because remember, Niger, for example, is producing one, I mean, more than a tenth of, you know, the global supply of uranium, a very important metal, you know, when countries are going towards a nuclear power. And France gets 50% of its uranium from Niger. And France is almost 60 to 70% uranium, I mean, nuclear-based energy electricity. So Niger is very important for France as a former colony because of all these treaties that French kept with almost 15 or 14 countries in Africa where, you know, France, you know, is a major actor politically, economically, and culturally, socially in this country. Also Niger is very important because Niger is, Niger hosts military bases. For whom? French, for the French, and the US. And the US? The US have probably two bases. What is our interest? What is the United States? Our interest is to fight terrorism and all these insurgencies. You know, remember NATO, so meaning, you know, at that time, the major powers of NATO. The major capitalist powers, correct? France, Great Britain, and the US toppled down Gaddafi in Libya, creating a mess over there. A chaos that, you know, spread across, you know, the region, Niger, Mali, Bukinapas. Because they're sort of close? Yeah. And then so all these guns and all these, you know, I mean, this chaos was recuperated by the insurgent groups over there because you have Al Qaeda and other, you know, terrorist organizations that have their cells in these countries. So these terrorists and insurgents have started, you know, attacking the central governments. You know, they want to impose Sharia law. All right, but you say terrorist groups. What do they want? What is it? Are they terrorist groups? Are they revolutionary groups? Who are they? They're different actors. You have the, you know, the terrorists, so-called terrorists and insurgents, are, you know, mostly backed by Saudi Arabia and all these big, you know, Muslim powers that are looking for to establish, you know, Muslim, you know, regimes over there. So you have... That's certain. Yeah, that's certain. Regularly you will find in the news, you know, that young girls have been abducted. In Nigeria. In Nigeria, in Nigeria, in Nigeria, Boko Haram, Al Qaeda and Co. So these militants are threatening the, you know, social fabric, but also economical because it's a region full of, I mean, minerals, resources, so I bet, you know, the superpowers don't want to share that with any, you know, uncontrolled, you know, group of people. And also, it's also a pretext, according to some scholars and commentators, for the European powers to get back to Africa. Exactly. Militarily. Militarily. Right. To defend against the so-called terrorists, correct? To defend against the so-called terrorists. But, you know, many of the countries in the region, Bokina Faso, Mali and Niger and Co., Senegal not yet, but, you know, these countries have realized that even with the presence of Western military, you know, troops over there, there's not much going, I mean, not much success in repelling the terrorists. And they realize that, I mean, they think that it's mostly about mining and, you know, taking the resources. By home. By France. Okay. But what we have to understand is a reaction to an endless, you know, colonial, you know, a grip of France in the region. More of the new generation, I mean, the new generation of leaders over there don't want to be under, you know, the control of France, France chooses who is to be president. And then... But they say that those are democratic elections, correct? Oh, there's no democratic election. Okay. So what? And then it's an insult for people in Africa because they think that, you know, the Western world has higher standards for democracy in the West, in their, you know, countries, but can put up with any leader over there who manages to get elected. And who manages to stay loyal to the French. Stay loyal to the French. As soon as long as you stay loyal to the French, they don't care. For example, you go to Ivory Coast, Cote d'Ivoire, where I'm from, the president that is over there has been put in place after a military intervention, the same military intervention that they envision in Niger because these guys were said to have lost an election. But the European powers in the U.S. wanted so much, that guy, to be there because he's been groomed at the International Monetary Fund. Okay. So the U.S. wants the guy in Ivory Coast. Yeah. The perfect lackeys for European powers. So they bombarded the palace of, I mean, the president of the sovereign nation, which is the Ivory Coast, to install this guy. Okay. The guy did two mandates, two terms. The Constitution says you cannot go for three. He barged his way into a, in third mandate, third term, 200 people died, but we didn't see any reaction from U.S. Because Mr. Alassane Watara is the perfect good boy for the Western powers. So in West Africa, and especially in the French Francophone regions, as long as you are a good guy to France and then you give them contracts and access to minerals and, you know, control over your country, you can stay there forever. But as soon as a new leader comes and vote to, you know, repel France to go to do business with someone else, boom, the whole world, the so-called international community, the Western powers will jump on you and try to, that's what we are witnessing in Niger. Okay. So what is going on then in Niger? There was a democratically, so-called democratically elected government, correct? Yes. Favored by the U.S. and France? Yes. And they didn't do anything for Niger, correct? Yeah, that's what the people from Niger think. And it's one of the poorest countries in Africa. One of the poorest countries, yeah, one of the poorest countries in the world. In the world. In the world. But blessed with uranium. But you know, you have like a country that produce like, you know, that much uranium, which goes to France and doesn't get itself no electricity. There is no electricity? I mean, 70% of that electricity comes from Nigeria, which himself has- Wait, wait, wait. Okay. From Nigeria, which is not part of French West Africa. No. Because it's English, correct? Yes, English, you know? Yeah. It provides electricity to a country that is sitting on uranium. But the uranium then goes to France. France. Do they make bombs out of it? No, they make electricity. Okay. And probably some, you know- Nuclear bombs. Yeah, nuclear bombs. But you know, mostly 70% of France's energy comes from nuclear plants. Okay. And they need uranium for that. They need uranium. And that's for French people's electricity, correct? But we have to understand that Russia has been called upon by, you know, these countries like Burkina Faso and Mali. These countries have gotten rid of France. They said France would go away. We don't want your soldiers here. And there were soldiers there. There were soldiers there. So the French, but the French were forced to leave because the Wagner group is already in these countries. But who forced the French out? For instance, of Burkina Faso. The people? I mean, the government of Burkina Faso. Okay. So they just said get out, get lost. So you have this series of coup d'etat that are, you know, just a symptom of something that doesn't go- that is not right. You know, you have a democratic decay with, you know, standards of democracy imposed by the West that are favorable to their good bodies over there. You have extreme poverty. You have extremism that is popping up. I mean, that is, you know, that is the result also of, you know, failed social policies. When you have kids that wants to go die in the Mediterranean Sea to reach the shores of Europe, it means that those countries are not, you know, providing any hope for them. So all this can also be a good, terrain favorable to terrorism as well of, you know, extremism. Okay, but by terrorism again, you mean insurgency, correct? And so some of these are like against being ripped off by the French imperial power, right? Or not? It's more of the new, I mean, the civil society, the youngsters and the new governments that are against France, you know, you know, and then these big powers for many years, these countries which were given independence, they didn't even fight for it. It was given to them because of the pressure in the 60s and 50s, you know, the decolonization movement. So they gave these independences to these countries, but, you know, kept some treaties that, you know, bind and keep those countries under the influence. So now you have a new generation that doesn't want that anymore. What do they want? They want to be able to do business with whatever power or whatever. They want to do business. They want to do business. They don't want to be colonial beings anymore. So it's important that, you know, it's. Are those forces in the position to be independent countries without the Western powers? Of course they are because today, you know, I mean, look, Turkey, if you see countries in Asia that were in the 70s, even below, you know, the level of development that some of the countries in Africa had, those countries were able to. Yes. Which ones? Malaysia. You have all these, you know, countries in Asia that they call them like the small tigers or whatever. Yeah. You know, they're thriving. Are they? Yeah. I mean, they're trying. They're trying. Most of them are becoming, you know, emerging powers. And then you have Africa with all these resources. It's not, it didn't work for all these years because you had like tyrants that were entertained and maintained over there by the colonial powers. Now, let's see if there's no, you know, intervention or control of France or. Okay. Let's go back a little bit. Okay. So what you're saying is that these struggles are against, essentially, the old colonial powers. Yes, because. And they are, and this mill, so let's talk about Niger. What happened in Niger? Because that seems to be the country right now that's in power. Yeah. Niger is. Or that's in the news. Yeah. Niger is the latest coup, you know. A coup against the government. A coup against the government. Military. Yeah. Because those governments in power in this region, they don't have any credibility anymore. They could have had, yeah, I mean, 20 or 30 years ago, you know, the people in power were out of colonization. They were still, you know, scared about, you know, the colonial master. Now the new generation, the guy who was in power in Bukina, Faso, for example, is not even 35 years old or maybe not even 40, he's a captain. He's like leading a country. And then you have, you have also another young leader in Mali who maybe wasn't even born under colonization, who probably has gone to schools where he was able to compete with other, you know, people from these colonial powers equally. So they want at least to be treated equally. Someone was telling me, listen, and then it's important that, you know, the progressive, the Democrats here in the U.S. understand that. But they don't. They don't understand. They don't accept that France is, you know, maintaining people under poverty because France is in the fantasies of, you know, the progressive here is the land of democracy, the land of human rights. But a friend of mine was telling me, it looks like the Democrats, the progressive, when it comes to the black and brown world in this country, when it comes to their interaction with the black and brown folks, they try to be Martin Luther King. But in the global south, in particular in Africa, they are Jim Crow. You know, you can't be Jim Crow in Africa and be Martin Luther King in America. It doesn't work because it's the same color. It's the same people. So, I mean, if I was even African-American here, seeing what is going on in the rest of the black and brown world, I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't believe those who come to me and say, black lives matter. You know, if you go around the continent, the Democrats in Africa, the Democrats have been those who have, you know, instigated conflicts over there, Rwanda, Congo, if we have so many refugees from Congo here, it's just because, you know, this crumble for Africa, this, you know, a copinage with, you know, crooked leaders who are, you know, you know, taking advantage of the people have created a mess. You know, some people will say that we prefer to have, like, even the conservatives who have, like, we know... Some people in Africa. Yeah, we know what they think about Africa, so rather than, you know, those who pretend to be progressive and accept that countries like in Africa and the black and brown world be still. I mean, can you believe that? Look at the videos and the news. It's all about, we don't want France. The burning France flag, yet in this country, people think that, no, it's about poverty, it's about, you know, terrorism, it's about probably, you know, they can't do anything if there's no France. Let's try something. Let's ask France to leave this country alone. At least leave militarily, for sure. Leave militarily and politically because France is controlling politically these countries. France is the only country that can bring to the table a resolution on behalf of these countries at the United Nations. It's impossible. You can't have a security council that is still under, you know, the influence or, you know, who is controlled by a bunch of countries and say that, you know, we all are part of it. So it's about time. People understand that it will backlash too. I mean, America will suffer from that because the flags that they're burning, the French flags that they're burning, you know, are soon going to be also replaced by other flags of countries that are seen to be condoning what France is doing over there. Another example, Chad, for example, which is a neighboring country of Niger, Chad had like a succession that was not democratic. There was a tyrant over there, a good friend of the military, you know, I mean the Western military powers who died, his son took over with that election, you know, you know, forcibly took power. Emmanuel Macron, the president in France, went all the way to his country to bless almost his, you know, accession to power. So it's about time there's not this double standard. Democracy is good when, you know, here you can, you know, you can, but in the rest of the world, you know, if you are a good friend of ours, you can have your version of democracy. If you're not good to us, we're going to impose sanctions. Okay. So who is the new leader in Niger? He's a military man. He's a military man. And is he favored by the people of Niger or do we know? He's favored by the people in Niger, at least until we see an election, a democratic, a real election, but the masses, the people seem to be, you know, backing him, demonstrations of people from Niger. But you know, the only way to see that is to not create more chaos, have this military power quickly hand over the power to civilians. And then we have to sit down. I mean, the big powers have to sit down and decide for God's sake to live along these countries. I don't know. I'm not sure they will give. But you haven't decided that. No, they can't because Russia, China is over there. Yeah, but who do they favor? And why are they there, Russia and China? And essentially, Russia has been a friend of the independent movements in Africa for a very long time, right, at least since the Second World War, right? So Russia is seen as a big brother by the African people, yeah, we can help them defend themselves against, you know, the old colonial powers. So they say, at least with Russia and China, we are the ones who went to get them to come to our countries. They did? Yeah. In the case of European powers, they were colonizers, they imposed themselves. The French and the English, in particular. It's not that they favor the Russians, so to speak, but between two bullies, you look for the lesser evil, right? But they actually assisted the Russians, correct? Mali and Bukinafa are completely assisted by them. And by the so-called Wagner group. Wagner group. But behind the Wagner group is Russia. It's Russia. And that seems to be something that is also quite controversial. But it's your opinion, after study, that the Wagner group is Russian. Yeah, the Wagner group is Russian. It's not some ... Look, the Wagner group is combating in Ukraine. Right, exactly. And in fact, Putin transferred them to Belarus, right? So, I mean, they are proxies of the Russian government. We know about it. It's clear. So, the problem now is, you know, if there is a war. Is there going to be? And it's in between homes? The stakes are very high. I know, I know. For the U.S. I don't know if the U.S. will accept to have, beside the military base, another, I mean, a Russian base. They won't. I don't know if the French will accept to be kicked out of Niger after having been kicked out of Bukinafa, so kicked out of the Mali. That would be, you know, the end of France in Africa. Well, the end of the French Empire. In Africa. Right, right, right. But the end of France in Europe, because the European, the other European countries have always said that France wouldn't be a superpower if it didn't have all this year colonies and former colonies, you know, to explore it. Wow. Well, they're not going to have nuclear power. They won't have nuclear power. Or nuclear energy. They won't have, you know, that all the countries that France, you know, controls in Africa, they give the foreign currency reserve to the Bank of France. In return, the Bank of France, you know, makes sure that they have a currency that they can. A stable currency. But it's a currency that is not in favor of these Africans, because it's a currency that is backed, is attached to the euro. So it makes the goods from this country very expensive. And then if they want to buy, you know, goods from outside of the country, it's also expensive. So these countries really want an independence. And France didn't understand that they should have done like the British maybe. Maybe. Yeah. British are more subtle. More subtle. They don't have business and not come as, you know. Well, I just read today, however, that the British have the military in Kenya still. And in their old colleagues, I asked you that question yesterday. The French appear to be more heavy handed, but I really wonder, but we don't have answers about that. Yeah, it's the same thing. Same thing. Well, we don't have answers about that. Yeah. But, yeah. But, okay. So those bases have to leave. They cannot stay. Well, but the United States has AFRICOM, also, military bases. Okay. And if they have to stay, then they have to do that, you know, in good faith with these leaders. Okay. Well, let me ask you, because I think we're almost out of time. So is this going to be another proxy war between the United States and Russia? It could be. I mean, another proxy war, and then it would likely to be because I don't see the U.S. set. I don't see the U.S. giving up. No, I don't see the U.S. giving up. It's important also for the U.S. I mean, the U.S., it's for their security, you know, they don't want, they have, they want to have control on this region, you know, not to be subject to any blackmail from terrorist groups. Well, that's what they said, right? Yeah. Yeah. So, so I don't, I don't know how it would go. And then, but Niger, I mean, the neighboring countries for Niger, for example, Algeria, which is, right, very powerful. Algeria said no war. No intervention. A book in Afasu and Mali said if there's a military intervention, it will be tantamount to a declaration of war on them. Right. So the whole region would work. And so we're here today, essentially, to try to explain a story that is not being explained very well by the American media. Yeah. It's a story of clinging colonialism. Thank you. It's a story of clinging colonialism, but it's not over today and then it's getting worse because the European powers are no longer able to grow. There's no growth in Europe. Right. There's no more growth in Europe. And what have created growth in Europe is exploitation, free exploitation of resources. That's what have, you know, fed capitalism. It's not necessarily, you know, that one camp is, yeah. It's free access to labor and resources. But also capitalism probably at its highest form, imperialism. Imperialism. Right. So today there's no more room for imperialism because Russia is there, China is there, South Africa, the brakes. You know, it's a multipolar war. Exactly. And it doesn't... Followed very well for the United States. No, no for France. Or the United States. Yeah. I mean, the Western powers have to accept that. But they're not going to. C'est la vie. C'est la vie. They're in for more wars. C'est la vie. Anyway, I think... C'est la vie. I know. Anyway, with that, c'est la vie to our audience. We'll be back on the same subject, I hope, soon. So my friends in America have to understand as much as you know... You're going to be an American. The revolution has inspired the world. And JFK too. So they have to let other countries do their revolution so that also they join the free world. We're not... Okay, exactly. But the United States is no longer a revolutionary country, right? It's an empire. Oh. Unfortunately, in my mind. Yeah. But the story continues. The story continues. Okay. Well, merci to our audience and we'll hope to see you in about a month.