 Think Tech Hawaii, civil engagement lives here. Happy Aloha Friday, and welcome to Think Tech Hawaii. This is your host, Cara Miller. I'm here filling in for Ethan Allen on this episode of Likeable Science. I'm very excited for this episode today. We have a guest with us, Jackie Troller, and it happens to be her birthday. So thank you for being with us on the show on your birthday, Jackie. Thank you so much, Cara, for having me. We're so happy to have you. So why don't you go ahead and let the audience know what you'll be talking to us about today? OK, I'm so happy to be here first and foremost. My name is Jackie Troller, and I'm with Ocean Troller Freediving. I've been with freediving since 2012, and I got hooked and became an instructor and have been the safety on numerous competitions since. Awesome, Jackie. Thanks. Jackie and I actually go way back in studying and working in the field of marine science together, and I've always looked up to her for being an expert in the field of freediving. But something that a lot of people forget is that there's so much science that goes into this practice and this activity and exercise of freediving. So on Likeable Science today, we're going to be talking to you about all about the science that is behind the freediving practice, things that are important to know and keep in mind if you're ever considering participating in something like that yourself. And I think to get started, it would be great if we could hear about an overall history. What even is freediving, maybe for some of us that aren't too familiar with it? When did it really get started? Maybe where? And just give us a nice overview of the sport. OK, so freediving is, I guess, sort of an advanced form of snorkeling. You're not using any tank. You're taking down your own breath, self-powered, swimming around. It's nice because the bubbles don't influence with the marine life, or some people like to freedive so they can spearfish and catch food. Freediving actually, it seems like it's kind of a new sport, a fad that's been on Instagram a lot lately. Yes, we see it a lot out there on the social media. It's definitely growing. However, even though it's a relatively new sport, it's been around for thousands and thousands of years. Alexander the Great used it in the war. And then there's the famous Jeju divers, and they dive for pearls and other things. Oh, neat. And then all the way into some Navy divers in the 1900s pushed some limits that were never before thought possible by scientists even. And then around the 50s and 60s, freediving started to grow and gain momentum. And since then, there's been competitions. But even a decade or so ago, we only thought people could reach 70 meters. But now people are assisted reaching depths up to 830 feet. Wow, 830 feet. Yes. I was about to say, for some of us Americans mostly that are trained in thinking about this foot versus the metric scale. So meters compared to feet, you just referenced in feet. But you said 70 meters, for example, which would be about how many feet? So you times it by three. Okay, okay. So three times more. Exactly. And it's funny, you might see me go back and forth, but freedivers use the metric system for many reasons. And also it makes things easier because freedivers travel about one meter per second. Oh, wow. So as a safety diver, it's easy to track where our competitors, or not the competitors, but the athlete should be in the water so that we can dive down and meet them at one third their depth and assist them to the surface. Okay, neat. So in this history, you mentioned the Jeju Islanders. Where's Jeju Island? In Korea. In Korea. Yeah. Wow. So a more kind of ancient, maybe traditional usage and utility for freediving. But as you said in the 1900s, the military started utilizing it in the Navy. And then there became an organization or something that started turning it basically into more of a performance competitive activity. When did all of that happen? The mid-1900s, like 1950s, I'm not sure when IDA first started, but it's A-I-D-A is the overarching freediving association. And then there's offshoots, similar. For all of you scuba divers out there, there's Patti and Naoi as the two overarching, there's others of course, but the two overarching agencies. And it's similar for freediving. So freediving has kind of broken up to two agencies. The agency I'm certified through is Performance Freediving International. They are an accredited organization. So when people take my course, they get the certification card and insurance covers it. So it is a world recognized. Wow. And we have also teamed up in addition with Naoi, the scuba agency, to teach freediving with them as a collaboration. Because it's growing and becoming such a popular sport that people want to participate in. Absolutely. Which obviously involves a lot of safety. I know that you're a big proponent of safety first. So talk to us about why safety is so important in this sport. It's well known for this sport, especially amongst spear fishermen that people when they dive by themselves, they pass away. And it's a really unfortunate thing and it causes a lot of negative media attraction, which is unfortunate because freediving is actually really safe if you know the proper protocols and the proper buddy systems. But this little fact is what is the game changer. 90% of blackouts happen on the surface after the diver has taken a breath or two. Oh, wow. So this is a common misconception. People think, oh, if people black out and they're exhausted, it's underneath. But it's actually after they've reached the surface. And pretty much from there, it's a 50-50 if you end up on your back or face forward. Wow. Is that different than shallow water blackout, which I've heard about before? That is shallow water blackout. I see. And tell me what's going on actually in the brain that causes that to happen. I'm going to address the urge to breathe first. Okay. Because people mix up the two. But your urge to breathe is triggered by a rise of CO2, and then blackout is lack of oxygen. So I just wanted to differentiate the two, but it's essentially lack of oxygen. Lack of oxygen. That makes you blackout. So when you're basically getting ready to go and do a freedive, I know that the breath you and I have talked a lot about the breath before is a big part of it. So tell me more about, I mean, is holding breath a natural thing for humans? I mean, are humans made to hold their breath? Or is this something that we've adapted to be able to do throughout time? Maybe need first if there is a purpose, like you mentioned, the clam farming in particular for the pearls? Or is this... Tell me more about that. I'm curious too. I love this question. The breath is so interesting because most people think of it as an involuntary reflex, but breathing can actually also be voluntary in humans. So freedivers have studied yoga, breathing, and have kind of adopted some of the yoga breathing techniques to help us dive deeper. One being pranayana. Did I say that right? Okay. Pranayama with an M. Pranayama. So pranayama is inhaling, pausing at the top of your breath, exhaling, pausing at the bottom. And you get used to these urges to breathe and it helps you know that when you're at the bottom of your breath, you're still okay and gets used to those... It simulates how you feel underwater when you first get those urges and that you know you have more air. Okay. And so this is something that you're saying can be trained. Yes. It's a skill. And that's where your breath transforms from involuntary to voluntary. Right. Is when you start practicing these breathing techniques and you start basically ignoring your most inherent urge, your urge to breathe. Right. Right. So how does that work exactly? How do you basically start training your body to be in control of when to breathe, when not to breathe, when it is something that we kind of are trained to think of as humans is something that just happens automatically. Is it a change in your mindset first and then you start practicing the skills and then you train this reflex that you mentioned about not needing to breathe right at that moment? There's a lot that goes into it. Definitely the mental aspect is huge and it takes practice to develop that over time. But these breathing techniques help you segue into that better mental state so that you are ready to have your best dive or do your personal best breath hold. And the thing that helps us do it is a thing called the mammalian reflex. We have a dive reflex that is seen and similar in mammals. Obviously we're not as good as the wood elf seals and the dolphins and the whales, but we still have a reflex that is triggered by submersion in colder water in your forehead specifically. Yes. So as soon as you expose your forehead to colder water and you can even do this experiment at home with a bowl and some ice cubes, it triggers bradycardia, which is basically slowing of the heart rate. And this is where the science comes in and your blood shunts to your core. What does that mean? So your blood basically starts to concentrate in your core and moves away from your extremities and slows everything down. And this is what allows us to be able to extend our breath holds, bringing our heart rate down, slowing down. Any freediver you see in a competition even before they go into their breath holds, they get in a state of meditation and sloth like movement. That's what it sounds like. You have a lot of parallels to the practices around meditation and these breathing techniques in yoga like you're talking about. Absolutely. And some of the deepest divers in the world actually don't dive with any mask. They just dive with a nose clip. They close their eyes and they go into this deep meditation because as you are exposed to these depths, that sounds so extreme. You're down at 800 feet without wearing a mask. I mean, that's really amazing to me. Yeah. I mean, that's incredible. And their goal is to get into this Zen mode and you're trying to fight off any negative thought. And this is the really cool part about freediving, which is applicable to anything in life. In freediving, you're going to have negative thoughts. You're going to feel that pressure at some point or feel uncomfortable. It's about getting used to being used to discomfort and taking those negative thoughts and letting them pass versus holding them on. And if you hold onto those negative thoughts, it's guaranteed you're going to end up turning around and going back up. Negative thoughts bring on tension in your body. As a diver, you want to be as relaxed as possible. So that's why we want to focus on the positive. This is great. It sounds like there can be a lot of benefits, honestly, just on the central nervous system for anyone that's practicing some of these techniques. So what is an average length of time that someone like, maybe not someone like me because I do dive, both scuba and freedive for fun, but let's take someone who isn't a scuba diver, let's say that they're comfortable in the ocean. But what would you say their average length of holding their breath could be before a course and then maybe after the first course with you, for example? And why is it different? OK. So our most basic course has a breath hold up to three minutes. And people will be able to hold their breath for 30 seconds before and actually hit the three minutes during the course. Wow. Just through these techniques and learning the different physics and physiology of the sport. So if you were just going to take a population of 100 randomly selected people, what would be the average time of holding that they could hold their breath? I love talking about freediving because everyone's like, oh, I can't get more than 30 seconds. I can't get more than a minute. But I love telling people that the average human is physiologically capable of holding their breath for three to four minutes. Really? Yeah. The average human, anyone on the planet capable on a physiological level, obviously not necessarily happening yet. Wow. It's so interesting, Jackie. Well, this is all fascinating things. I would love to hear more about some of the ins and outs of the practices that are involved in getting to a longer breath hold, how maybe some of the pressure, the deeper you go, how that plays in. But we are going to take a short break and we'll be back in exactly one minute from now. Thanks. Hi. I'm Dave Stevens, the host of Cyber Underground every Friday here at 1 PM on ThinkTechHawaii.com. And then every episode is uploaded to the Cyber Underground. That library of shows that you can see of mine on youtube.com. And I hope you'll join us here every Friday. We have some topical discussions about why security matters and what could scare the absolute bejesus out of you if you just try to watch my show all the way through. Hope to see you next time on Cyber Underground. Stay safe. Are you tired of sleep walking through life? Are you dreaming of a healthier, wealthier, happier you? You're not alone. And that's why thousands of people tune in each week to watch RB Kelly on Out of the Comfort Zone Tuesdays at 1 PM. Make a change. Get the help you need. And stop sucking at life. The army, we're going to have to go live. Hello. It's 1 PM on a Tuesday afternoon and I'm your host RB Kelly. Welcome to Out of the Comfort Zone. Welcome back to Likeable Science here on ThinkTechHawaii. This is your host Cara Miller, filling in for Ethan Allen. Today with us, we have Jackie Troller with Ocean Troller Freediving. Jackie and I go way back in the field of marine science and she's one of the most amazing freedivers that I've ever personally had the chance of knowing and freediving with. So she's here talking to us about some of the science behind the practice and sport of freediving. We've talked a little bit about some of these techniques that you can utilize with various breathing practices that slows down the heart rate effectively and actually offsets what Jackie called the mammalian reflex to breathe. So really quick just to make sure any new viewers have the chance of hearing about this. Tell us about the mammalian reflex one more time and then talk a little bit more about some of these techniques for freediving. Sure. The mammalian reflex or dive reflex is triggered through sensory in your forehead and it's exposure to water or colder water immersion that triggers your body to do these amazing things like shunts your blood to your core so your blood starts to concentrate which is important to wear a wetsuit. A lot of people think oh warm water but in all the courses we encourage wetsuits because you can actually start shivering due to this response. Interesting. And then also another response is flowing of the heart rate. Slowing of the heart rate. And then one last one I didn't mention before is your spleen will contract and sends more blood cells so that your body can hold on to more oxygen. Fascinating. And Jackie had also told us you had said that in fact the average human even though they're not going out and holding their breath for four minutes every day in fact the average human can hold their breath for three to four minutes physiologically speaking. Which is fascinating. So if somebody wanted to start working on this they could practice pranayama some of the breathing techniques and what else. So this international organization for freediving it sounds like there's a couple. How do they play into this are they kind of like overseeing everybody practicing making sure their safety protocols and standards and things like that. Absolutely. So Ada is the overarching one that runs the world competitions and it's funny when the sport first started out the rule book was like half a page because it's such a new sport and now it's it's definitely grown just to keep the athletes safe. But there are protocols there are strategies when you are competing which is pretty interesting. One of them being you have to take off your gear in a certain order and then give the OK sign and say clearly in English I am OK to the judge wait 30 seconds and then they will give you a card based on your performance. Oh yeah and you also have to show that you got a tag. I kind of reached over here because a lot of athletes will stick their tag in their hood to make sure they don't drop it on the way back up. Gotcha. Yeah. A little dive in trick. Yeah. Stick the tag in the hood. Yeah. Keep that in mind. So let's let's say with all of these protocols in place still something goes wrong. I mean like anything their accidents happen. So if somebody experiences shallow water blackout do they have brain damage from that experience. No that's another common misconception. People are like how do you hold your breath and not get brain damage. So there's several stages of a blackout. I first want to give the disclaimer blackout isn't this typical thing that happens all the time and anytime an athlete experiences a blackout we're all highly trained to deal with it. It's not something to aspire to do but it's also not something to be terribly afraid of. There's a stigma behind it. It's very easy to address it if you know the proper protocol to take care of someone who did blackout. But going back to the stages the first stage is loss of motor control and the symptoms before you can actually judge if you're going into this zone based on your symptoms. Some people get euphoric. Some people get numbness and tingling. Some people see stars. So at that point you want to train yourself to kind of take yourself out of that meditative state and waken your body and start moving a little bit so that it prevents you from going into that blackout. But given that euphoria is one of the symptoms it's easy to see why some divers are lost especially if they're not educated on the stages. It's interesting because it reminds me of something in scuba the nitrogen narcosis effect feeling narced people say it which also causes a similar feeling of euphoria. It's different but freedivers who have pushed the limits at this point in time that are going to hundreds of meters they actually are susceptible to narcosis. And freedivers are also susceptible to decompression illness which is what scuba divers get. It's just at a smaller scale. I don't know if that's the right wording for it but like for us to prevent ourselves from getting decompression sickness because we're doing repetitive dives to 100, 130 feet we will stay on the surface for a minute or two. And we also have nitrogen gas at the surface that we will breathe off of of course we won't bring that gas down because that's what causes it to unload when you're scuba diving is when you bring that tank down the molecules compress. That's right and that's what makes it worse for scuba divers but for freedivers it's not as exaggerated because we're bringing down the same breath that we got from the surface and returning it at the surface. Right which is interesting because I'm just thinking scientifically since this is likable science. The reason why you would come up as a freediver and suck straight nitrogen for example as a scuba diver when you're coming up and usually they're giving you enriched oxygen that you're trying to breathe to offset some of the oxygen. Sorry I kept saying nitrogen but I meant nitrox. Yeah and enriched. Okay so they do have a nitrox tank or if a like athlete starts to show signs of quivering or something at the surface after that athlete is done performing they will go to a bottle of 100% O2 just so we make sure we're taking care of our athletes. Got it. And this is again just bringing essentially their blood back to a normal concentration. Wow. Fascinating. Good to know it doesn't cause brain damage experiencing shallow water blackout. There's a lot of safety protocols and procedures in place so tell us a little bit more about your own freediving experiences and what have you basically gone through that's led you to where you're at now as a freediving instructor. Okay so you mentioned earlier we were in marine science programs and that's how we originally met. Through the marine science programs I became a scientific diver and I just remember one of my friends in the diving courses being like oh I took this class and I had a minute breath hold and at the end of the class I had a four minute breath hold and I just thought oh my goodness I have to try this. I did I flew to Kona I took the class and sure enough my second day I got a four minute breath hold. Wow. Yeah it was amazing and I was hooked from there it's it's this interesting state I didn't even know at the time that I was meditating in fact I wasn't a yogi for a long time either it's freediving that got me into yoga but when you start getting your mind to these certain places and pushing out negativity and focusing on one object it's it's incredible the stress reduction and how good you feel yeah when you do it. Well this is music to my biased ears as a lover of yoga and a yoga instructor and knowing that what you just described Pratyahara this withdrawal from your senses into this one pointed vocal concentration having incredible effects on the state of the brain and of course your heart follows sweet so that's incredible that these yoga breathing techniques have lent have lent so much knowledge and diaphragmatic breathing and that's right breathing with your diaphragm that's right all of the different all of the different techniques for pumping more oxygen in and then also the mental techniques so you would also mention to me that there was techniques also being borrowed not just from yoga but from something else really exciting from fighter pilots who are exposed to G forces wow so they developed this breath called the hookah breath where basically when they're exposed to the G force there's a blood dump from their head so they inhale and kind of pump their stomach to keep the pressure so that they don't I believe the term is gray out oh wow for them and we adopted this actually the founder of performance freediving international figured this out when he was coaching an athlete on a record dive because he kept coming up and feeling fine but then blacking out after a couple breaths at the surface and they're like man if he could just stay with us then he'll get this record so after finding out about these fighter jet breathing techniques he applied it to freediving and this freediver was able to stay up stay alert and pass all the tests to get the record dive wow yeah so who knew but freedivers are also learning a thing or two from fighter pilots yeah which is incredible well I've certainly learned a lot today Jackie we're unfortunately to the end of our time but if you could leave everybody with information about I know you have two courses I think that are coming up this summer yeah absolutely one yeah from here on out I'm gonna teach a course a month so I'm ramping things up take away is never dive alone always have a buddy and get trained on this stuff it's so helpful and it opens your eyes to so many things and it's amazing to just be underwater with the fish no bubbles to scare them away and it's great to do with friends so check out OceanTroller.com if you're interested in a course thank you so much for being on the show today Jackie on likable science and again this is your host Karen Miller reporting to you happy Aloha Friday see you next time thanks