 May the 2nd, 2022 meeting of the Mypillier Design and Review Committee. We'll let members and staff introduce themselves. Don't forget to pull the microphones closer to you. Ben Schmincini, member. Eric Gilbertson, member. Meredith Crandall, staff. Steve Everett, member. Richard Crandall, member. And we can introduce Martha when she arrives. So unless anybody has anything else at present time, we will let Meredith review the meeting procedures. All right. So what's going to show up on your screen is more for anybody who's watching via ORCA. But I'm going to go through just some of the procedures for remote meetings. Oh, and Martha's in. Okay. All right. So for anyone viewing this meeting via ORCA media, you can participate in tonight's Design Review Committee meeting via the Zoom platform. Either you can do this either through using this link here, which will let you access the video options as well as hear the meeting and be able to ask questions, or you can call into the meeting using this phone number and meeting ID, which will let you hear and speak. You just won't be able to see the screen. If anyone has a problem accessing the meeting, please email me with this email address. I will be monitoring it throughout the meeting to help you get in if needed. For anyone attending via Zoom, turning on your video is optional. For everyone attending, please keep your microphone on mute. When you're not speaking, this will reduce background noise. The Zoom chat function should be used only for troubleshooting or logistics questions. If you have a question or something substantive to add about one of the applications, please raise your hand and wait until the chair is called on you to speak. And then I'll be monitoring raised hands and views as well. For some reason, we haven't been catching you. Do feel free to unmute yourself and ask to speak. In the event the public is unable to access this meeting, it will need to be continued to a time and place certain because we have listed the Zoom access option as a way to get into it. But so far, everybody who's attending is an applicant. I haven't had a whole lot of public questions and inquiries about the applications on tonight. So I think we should be good. Alrighty. I'll hand the meeting back over to the chair and Martha is on. So we have a full committee tonight. No good. Good evening. I'm right there. Do I hear a motion from one of the members to approve the agenda? So moved. All second. All in favor of the agenda speak your names. Ben. Eric. Steve. Martha. Yes. So the agenda is approved. We can move on to the first application for 12 Main Street, Honor City of Montpelier and applicant Lillian Eklund Gustafson. Is she here on? Lillian is on remotely. So Lillian, you can unmute yourself and introduce your project. Talk about it a little bit. Yeah, hi. I'm from, I'm a senior at the Central Vermont Career Center in Berry. And I go to high school at Montpelier. I'm pretty much, I am designing a five foot by five foot garden plot to put by the Parklet for all food and secure people to plant and grow their own food. Martha, Liz, and actually Lillian too, if you want me to share the application on the screen so everybody can look at it, let me know. In regard to placement, things like that. It's fairly straightforward, I think, but if anybody needs to reference, I'm happy to share. Yeah, Meredith, would you share the plot that shows us where on the lot would be located? Yep. So there's the garden bed. Here's the location. I don't know if they've moved it today already, but the shelter space is here. Here's the line of where the sidewalk is. Here's Main Street, but that's where the garden plot would be. So it's a raised bed, so they're not digging down into the soil. They really can't on that site. That was my next question. So all of this is going to be above the soil line then. Yeah, and we're also going to be putting a floor on or essentially a floor on the raised on the bottom of the raised bed. So there's no way that any kind of contaminants from the grass can be put into the soil. Okay. Is that what's the granite blocks and plastic sheeting? Yeah. So just as like a super safe, we are planning on putting granite blocks kind of lining the bottom and then essentially trash bags on the bottom and on top. So even if there were cracks in the boards, these contaminants, like there's no worry about any food being harmed. Where is the shelter going to be moved? Oh, well, that's not part of this, Liz. Right, I realize that. I was just curious, you know, so I was curious what the relationship would be between the shelter and the raised bed. The shelter's not going to be on the site at all anymore, I don't think. I think that's what City Council decided. Your storage, I think. Yeah, I think it's going into storage at the DPW garage or somewhere else. Okay, I believe I did read something about that. Thank you. Yep, you're welcome. Does the movement of the shelter change the location of the raised bed? It does not. It is a little bit of a let down because that is essentially where a lot of people who really need this food have been staying and that's pretty much like their safe space. But also the reason why I'm putting it here is for accessibility. So people nearby who are trying to find shelter or even food can simply come here and plant and grow their food. Who is responsible for maintaining it? That would be so Cindy Gauthier has volunteered to help us. And then there's a teacher for next year of my class. Her name is Ari. I'm blanking on her last name. And then also the Central Vermont Career Center will be maintaining it. Will the Career Center be planting it? Yeah, so we have a few of our own plants that we're growing now that we plan to move into it. And if people have access to their own seeds, we're planning to leave space for them to plant their own food of their choice. What worries me about any planters in downtown is who's going to keep them up because they all require maintenance and they get sometimes get pretty bad looking if people aren't taking care of them. Well, right. And the teacher for next year, she's a she's trained in like food. Like that's all of her. Most of her education is food and her class is going to be all around food and growing it and that kind of stuff. And then there's also for this seed growing season, it's planning to stay there. And then into the next growing season, if there is if people decide that it's too much of a hassle or it doesn't look good, then you can the Montpelier High School, a teacher, they're volunteered to take it. And if they don't have any need for it or want for it, then I am willing to take it because I've room at my house. Could you describe the exterior of all four sides? I see that there's this sketch showing granite blocks and plastic sheeting. But and I see the example of the design, but this one shows one foot of granite blocks and then the total height is two feet is the is the five foot by five foot raised bed basically of wood. Yeah, so the entire exterior is going to be of wood. It's only the inside that is going to have any plastic or granite. So you won't see that it'll also be covered in soil and fertilizer. Are the granite blocks just to hold it in place? Yeah, essentially when I was first talking about designing this, there was concern that since it's by the river, it's technically a flood zone. And if there were a big flood to happen, then we don't want, you know, a big wooden box to go floating around town. So the granite blocks are there to keep it in place in case that does happen. Okay, thank you. Any committee members have any further questions, comments or suggestions? The black plastic concerns me. I feel like that's likely to become lots of pieces of small black plastic that are going to be hard to pick up in the next three years that will maybe there's a road fabric that is more likely to stick together and when and if this thing is removed, it will the road fabric will still be intact and be able to be disposed of whereas I see black garbage bags falling apart and being lots of little black plastic pieces. Either that or a heavier plastic, either a either a 60 mil plastic or a membrane, a rubber membrane, either one would be suggested in terms of its longevity. You want the bottom to be waterproof, right? Essentially, yeah. So you can't get stuff migrating up. I would certainly put a heavier plastic on the bottom and maybe a road, kind of road fabric, the soil separation fabric really on the upper one so water can drain through. Right. And I was while I was designing it, I did realize that the top plastic might not be the best or necessarily necessary just because at that point, yeah, the water wouldn't be able to drain through. Do you also have any suggestions of what kind of plastic I should be using that wouldn't, you know, break apart? You could either use plastic like a 60 mil plastic or they make, if you go to a garden center like Agway or someplace like that, they have a landscape fabric that's tough and performs the same function or you could use a rubber membrane. Any of those would be suitable and would last. That sounds great. Might be worthwhile going to a garden center and using what's recommended for that same purpose, again, because it's tough enough and it won't come apart easily. I would think you could get a roof or could donate a small piece of the rubber membrane roofing to put on the bottom and that would be, you know, totally impervious. That sounds great. I could do both or either one of those. There's a lot of black plastic in the world that's been put down with good intentions that is now disintegrated into small pieces parts that is not pick upable. And clear plastic is worse. I was thinking maybe a nice idea to paint or stain the outside of the planter. So it looks a little more finished, perhaps like a deep red, you know, color or whatever to kind of blend in with the buildings around it. Yeah, I could definitely, I think a stain would be a really good, like maybe a dark walnut stain. Yeah, sure. Yeah, that would be amazing. It would be nice. There's a really nice color dark stain and I mean you can use any brand, but there's a dark stain color called Jacobian that looks really nice. It's a dark, it's a cross between a dark brown and a charcoal and it has a very natural look. What kind of wood are you going to use? It really depends on what is available. I was hoping I could use cedar, but I mean that's very hard to come across and so it's either going to be in between a fir, I think is what it's called or a hemlock and it's most likely going to be a fir. There's a place up in Walcott that saws cedar. I can't remember the name of it, no. P&R. P&R or PNR? P&R. I'll look into it. Fontaine and these, my pillar also saws most everything. Yeah, and the question still is what are the prices right now? Yeah. Describe the source of your project when you go looking and maybe somebody will have a kind heart. I think materials could be donated. I would think people would donate materials for it and then you could put a little sign on it that who donated for it. I actually have figured out all the funding for it. So the Central Vermont Career Center is paying for this since it is my senior project and I'm also in the works of a sign as we speak and it's going to be dedicated to Jeremy Silva and Flood who are two people who died in the last year and who are a part of the community in downtown. Okay, without further ado, we can go through the criteria. There's several criteria that apply to the project. For all projects, number three, proposed landscaping shall be compatible with the neighborhood and the site on which the project is located acceptable and then there's a criteria landscaping screening and site furnishings. Projects within the design review overlay district and subject to the landscaping requirements in section 3203 shall consider the following. Site furnishings including fencing, seating, other types of site furniture visible from the street or side yards, the raised bed would fall under that. Does landscaping obscure or undermine key architectural patterns or elements on historic buildings? Mechanical equipment screening, those don't apply but the overall is acceptable and all in favor of the project speak your names. Eric. Ben. Martha. Yes. And Steve. So the project is approved. Five to nothing in favor. You had a few just options on there or recommendations? The two recommendations that we discussed was that the plastic material be either a six heavy 16 mil plastic or rubber membrane roofing or a landscape fabric from a garden center specific for such use. And that was the number one. The second recommendation was that a dark stain was recommended for the exterior of the planter bed. So it blends in better with the surrounding buildings and area. So, Lillian, I will be emailing you a scan of that recommendation form and we'll just need your signature on it to then send back and then we'll be able to finish up the administrative site plan and report to be able to get the permit out the door. That sounds great. That sounds great. Was there any notes about maintenance or sort of? There's an agreement, I believe, between the city. We didn't put it in here because it's not about the outside of it, but between the city and Lillian's program about maintenance and what's to happen to the planter should it no longer be in use or start to wear down. Great. Okay. Awesome. Thank you very much. Thank you guys. Good luck with your project. Thank you very much. Have a good one. Before we go to the next one, there's somebody who signed in who's just listed as V on the Zoom. If you could unmute yourself and let me know who you are and what application you're attending for. Well, when you get a chance, if you're doing something else, unmute yourself and we'll figure out who you are in between. Thank you. Okay. The next application is for 146 Main Street. Honor applicant, BIPM, Matt Benoit. And would you like to describe your project for us? So, Jesse, if you want to introduce yourself. Hello, Jesse Ormick from Blocker Resign Architects. I was expecting Matt to be here tonight. Maybe Matt's V. Could be. Do you feel comfortable introducing the project or should we move on till Matt's, nope, I see Vincent Vanya. Okay. So, Matt doesn't appear to be on. Do you want to move on while we're waiting for him? Or do you think you're comfortable talking about it? I'm comfortable talking about it to a point. I can share my screen if that will help show the project. Yes, please. Okay. Let me know if you can see my screen. Yep. It's coming up. Okay. I'm just going to email Matt while we're waiting. Oh, thank you. I'll go through the first couple of pages here, which are kind of template detail items. This is kind of an overall aerial view of what's happening in the project. So, this is 146 Main Street. The parking areas along Main Street are located right here. The existing sidewalk is this line here. So, what we're proposing is a new entrance to a unit that he's creating, which is an adaptable unit. We came to this entrance point from a long path of actually going through our variants to not be required to provide an accessible route to the apartment. So, we looked at options where we had a very long ramp coming from the west and backside of the building along here up to an entrance door on this side. But the cost of that in relation to the total cost of the project was a higher percentage than what should be. So, they granted a variance. In talking with the variance board about alternate locations and what would make the most sense, we ended up looking at this spot, which from the parking area here does a fairly good job of providing, as an accessible route as possible, at least to the stairs, and then the entrance point on this east side facing Main Street. It's just an interior demolition plan. So, the unit itself is this kind of greenish gray shaded area where the stairs going up to a landing and a storm door and entry door into the unit with a kitchenette, a dining kitchenette here, bedroom back in this area coming into the living area then an accessible bathroom with a roll-in shower. So, this probably does the best job of explaining what this is going to look like. Currently, this addition is white, all white. So, the owner is proposing on painting it red to match the rear portion of the stick-framed historic addition in the back. He's replacing these three windows, which will be visible from the street. What he's proposing to use is a double-hung window with simulated divided lights that look similar to the windows that are there. It's a fiberglass clad window for Marvin with wood interior. So, for durability reasons, he likes the fiberglass cladding. And the front entrance door, he's looking at a, I believe it's a Thermatru door here that you can see on the left-hand side with a full-glass storm door in front. There's going to be a four-foot-wide concrete walk to the stairs, which he's proposing to use a PVC riser material with a trex, pebble gray, treads, and landings. The railing that we're showing in this rendering is a little bit out of date. What he's proposing to use is something similar and is located on the south side of the building going up to another entrance, which would be more of a custom metal railing. It'd be a little bit lighter. What we're showing up here is really the requirements that he needs to meet for building code and safety of the stairs. So, why this doesn't directly represent what it's going to look like. These are the dimension roll requirements that he's going to be required to make in any stair guard and railing that he provides. This is the light fixture that he's proposing to use right here next to the door. It shows the lumens. It's not a directional downlight, but there's no uplight feature to it, and he's going to have it on a day-night time. He's spoken to a local landscaper, and so what he's proposing, and this is one of those sheets that was changed as well, in addition to that previous one, there was a little planning bed here, so he's proposing to put three hydrangeas in place of the existing not accessible ramp up to a landing which doesn't provide an accessible entrance into the building. A perennial bed in this corner here next to the landing, and two hydrangeas on either side of the walk from the sidewalk up to the stairs, and then two larger lilacs on the north side offering to the property to the north. On the south side, finally, he's putting River Rock drip edge here with some ornamental grasses. It's approximately 24 inches deep, which is about 100 square feet of area here. He's also proposing to put snow guards on the existing roof here to prevent a large amounts of snow gathering in this area. Those are the sheets that we have and provided in the application. Sorry to be so long-winded there. Oh, no, that was good. Thank you, Jesse. Sure. Question, this is an apartment, correct? It is, yep, this is a new, so he's doing this in two phases. One phase we've already been approved, which is an internal reworking and change of use from business to an apartment, and so this is the final apartment, so he's actually adding, I think he's netting two additional housing units in this building. I noticed you're making the apartment accessible, correct? The apartment itself, the bathroom, will be fully accessible. The apartment is required to be adaptable, but yes, like I said, we did receive a variance to not have to provide an accessible route via a ramp to the unit due to the costs. With the building floor level being as high as it is above grade, I think we were looking at a 68-foot ramp. Can you just explain very quickly as to why you're not putting a ramp in so it's fully accessible? Yeah, so within the ADA, there's a list of things that they would prioritize that you would provide when doing any project, and when you reach a level that's 20% of the total cost of the project, then they want you to look at that list and through a variance process have a discussion on what components you would provide. The first one is always an accessible route. In this case, we were looking at, if I remember correctly, the cost of these upgrades to provide accessibility was in the 50% range of the overall cost of the project because of the access to this back addition. There wasn't room in the front of the building to put a ramp of that length, and so we looked at an option. I had a drone, I can bring it up, it's easier, I can actually draw here, where we were providing a landing here, and the ramp was going all the way around the backside of this building, staying away from the property line enough, and so people were parking in this southern parking lot. He was changing grade in this area here to make it accessible to a ramp that then turned and raised all the way up to this landing, and being that it was on the north side and in the way the roof structure works, all of the snow and rain is draining down this way, so we were providing a roof over that structure as well, and when you add all the costs of the site work, the ramp, it was well above the 20% cost, which they would look for you to provide in a project for accessibility features. Thank you. The other question I have, and I'm not sure we have any jurisdiction at all, is you're cutting a hole in the brick wall of the original house, correct? Oh, we are widening it to provide an accessible bathroom. So there's already a walkway or an opening through here. This hatched area is existing stairs down to the basement, so he's infilling that to provide an accessible bathroom, but this masonry will be... Sorry. And I'm concerned about cutting, you know, widening, that are you putting on a steel lintel or... Yeah, so he's working with the wall above. Yeah, there's a detail. I'm not sure if we'll end up just putting two steel angles in, or we'll actually do a sea channel, but he's working with the Wolf Engineering to provide those exact details. Yeah, it's the interior, so it doesn't really fall within design review, unfortunately, even though it's tough because it's a historic building. Yeah, my look at it is that's part of the original building, and just concerned about damage. Do you know when that addition was put on? This rear portion here, I do not. And I don't know when the side was put on either. I couldn't find a clear record of it in the permit history. Yeah, I'm just concerned about structural elements. There is some building. Yeah, so I'd forgotten. I believe I included the structural notes. I may not have, as it's an interior portion of this building, but what do Wolf Engineering's requesting is a three and a half by three and a half by quarter inch steel lintel for each width of brick to span the gap of the largest masonry opening. Thank you. I have some of the same concerns that Eric just expressed. I drove by there today, and this side unit sticks out very significantly. And I had some question about when it was added to this building because it does not seem to blend in at all. And I understand from your answers that we really don't know when it was added. Is that correct? This portion here? Yeah. I don't. I know historically it was a porch. I actually have that. I think there's a historic photo of that. And your proposal is to paint it red or more brick colored because right now it's white. It's white right now. The rear portion of this building, which has the stick framed addition further to the west, which you could just see here. That's that's original part of the building there. That's that's a little longer going into another unit. So that was proposing painting it the same color as that portion of the building. That would blend a little bit more. The other question or comment that I have is there's a great deal of work being done here in order to make this an accessible apartment, but I don't understand how someone in a wheelchair can get in there. That's true. That was part of the variance. Aside from being in a wheelchair, there's other reasons to make things accessible, as you know, as we all know. So once you're once you get to the unit that you have access to the door, there's accessibility to that door as far as clearances inside the unit. You'll be able to to move around for the ADA. But I hear you. It was a little strange. It was a very long conversation with the variance board because it and me as a as a designer, it didn't feel right, right? But the costs were really high. And for this project, based on how little he's actually doing to the unit. So in that sense, it made sense. Did you look at raising the grade of the area in front of the stairs of this addition, just so you would have fewer stairs and it would make someone help someone with mobility issues, not quite so many stairs to climb? Um, I mean, once we didn't look at that, just because of how tight we are to the property line here, and it would probably need a retaining wall, or the greater job off pretty quickly and significantly. But also, by trying to slope the grade up, it's such a short distance, it wouldn't really be an accessible. So, so this is to be as gradual as we can, and then providing the stairs up to the landing. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Part of this product, I should say, and I mentioned it briefly is there's an existing non-conforming ramp going up to a landing right now. And he is proposing to remove that. It's not part of the historic structure. I can bring up a picture of it if you'd like. But what you can kind of see here is that there's a, it's, I think it's a concrete block that is set on top of these, or it's a granite block set on top of this larger block here. So even though the ramp goes up to this landing, it's still not an accessible route into the building. Thank you. Yeah. Okay. Any members have any additional comments, questions, or suggestions? And again, considering the limitations of the site. Just to double check, Vince and Vanya, what application are you attending for tonight just so that we make sure we get to you when we get there? You'll need to unmute yourself. It's, if you hover over the bottom of your screen, bottom left of your, your zoom window, there should be a, like a little microphone with a red line through it. And if you click on that, you'll unmute. When you can find it, please do so and let us know what you're on for tonight so we can get any comments you have. Jesse, are you able to show us the railing design that he's leaning more towards? I realize the big picture that you have there is just for code satisfaction. Yeah. Something similar to this. Of course, this would be, this would need to be a guardrail site. So that would be at 42 and then there would be two. And then there'd be an intermediate handrail at 34 inches high, fastened to the larger posts. And it would project 12 inches past the last correct. Yeah. And likely to be what we always see a pipe handrail. I think he wants to talk with someone and find out options on what's available. We did a little bit of digging and everything comes in kits and it just doesn't seem like the right application here. So I think probably for the handrail pipe is the way to go because of the grasping restrictions for ADA. But I think a little bit more ornamental on the guardrail, which you'll see more of, I think, is what he's looking for. In full disclosure, he did call me, but I haven't had a chance to talk to him or look at it at all, but it is seemingly an important detail to the front of this building. So I may need to recuse myself based on that, but it matters to me that this is a thought through detail. I agree. Right. I agree that a pipe rail is a little too industrial looking for an elegant building like this. Something lighter and as you show in the photo would be in my opinion anyway, more appropriate. So currently it shows painted wood guardrails with painted metal handrails. Yeah. So that was one of those sheets that we revised. And so painted metal guardrails and painted metal handrails to match existing is what we're looking for. So the match existing is really referring to the guardrails, but we're required to put handrails or the right grasping shape and diameter per the building code. So that that would probably be the inch and a half diameter pipe. There's a little bit of options. You have some elongated sort of oval type shapes you can look at. But for the handrail, making sure that it is meeting code in the guardrail, the height requirement and the dimension between the balusters, the four inch max is what we'd be looking for. I see the sheet now painted metal guardrails and painted metal handrails. He briefly mentioned a number of wanting to do four or so different rails to me. I don't know if he's intending to also do the one to the left there and to the main entrance. He hasn't mentioned that to me. Yeah, I again, I have not spoke there briefly at a conversation with him. So I haven't looked hard. So I don't really know much, but if the committee wanted to they could as a option in here add in replacing that front main entry that's just a basically a pipe railing right now with something to match what's on the building and or what's what's being proposed to go on the ADA or the accessible apartment. And I think that would be an easy thing to throw in on this permit if you wanted to so that he can do them all all at the same time and get a consistent approach across the building if you all want. And again, it's not part of the application but it would it ties in. It could tie in and allow the option to do that within the next what it's under two year time frame. I think that's a nice suggestion. Yeah, this door and now is only serving one which is a two-story per fire code restrictions. When you mentioned the door, the door that is shown in this photograph looks a little bit industrial or a garage doorish to me and seems incongruous with the building. Have there been other ideas about a door when we're seeing this from the main street? Yeah, so I think we were kind of aiming towards the divided lights similar to the windows. We did go back and forth on whether the door would be white, whether it would be a darker color. You could see it there's an existing door here without any glazing that is kind of like a deep reddish almost wine color. But we landed on white to keep it keep it simple. I think I would prefer to see a darker color. I would too. Personally. It really stands out that way and not in an attractive way. The glazing is kind of an important feature so that really that's the main entrance and there was a window here and that's being removed as it was kind of in this area here because of the clearance we need for the door and with the railing it would be in conflict and also this window looks into a separate unit. So he had a window here at one point and decided that that visual of standing in one window of seeing right into another unit he wanted to avoid. So we're basically taking a window out putting a door in with glazing so that there's really two windows into that entry area kitchen and dining. Well I'd really like to see at least the storm door be more congruous with the building. Yeah the storm door is going to be pretty the idea there was that it's pretty narrow with glazing so really you're going to see more of this door. But there are color options for that door. The only issue with adding a storm door in that location is that how do you get outside to shovel the the walk without a cover over the over the top. And I can't speak for Matt but I see him around town all the time shoveling landings and walk so I don't know if that's part of what he would be doing here but I assume that it would be. The problem is if you get a heavy wet snow over a night until somebody gets there you have an egress issue. Yes yes part of and I don't mean to to go away from that because it is legitimate point but from egress standpoint we are adding a window on the back of the building where there was an existing door and that window size to be an egress means to be yours from the bedroom. It's going to be similar to these windows it's just going to be taller. Is there a landing or a stair on the back or is that just jump to the ground? That's go through the window and and get out to safety in case of an emergency. That's part of this entrance on this side that I tend to like better than the previous option where we were trying to come around this back is that it was just didn't feel as secure right you know this this kind of has a more open feel if you were someone going to this unit late at night rather than going around the back of the building. So yeah at this point there's no entrance back there just a little bit. Any other comments or questions at this point? We can go through the criteria for all projects exterior design and materials of new construction or alterations of existing buildings shall be consistent and compatible with the characteristics of the existing building or other properties in the district. For historic structures removal of historic materials or alterations they characterize an historic property shall be avoided. The only thing being removed here is the ramp the existing ramp which again does not need codes. Character defining features finishes and construction techniques or examples of craftsmanship they characterize an historic building shall be preserved. There are no deteriorated character defining features any treatments that cause damage to historic materials including the not limited chemical or physical treatments shall not be approved that this is acceptable. Existing buildings shall be recognized as a physical record of their time place and use. Any new development shall be differentiated from the old but shall respect and be compatible with the massing size scale architectural features detailing an overall character of the primary historic building and nearby historic properties acceptable. Proposed landscaping shall be compatible with the neighborhood and the site on which projects located acceptable. Location and appearance of all utilities mechanical equipment trash storage fencing shall be cited to minimize adverse visual impact or adequately and appropriately screened acceptable. Alterations to buildings called for by public safety accessibility and fire coach shall be designed to maintain the character of the construction materials and features to the maximum extent feasible acceptable. Proportion compatibility of relationship between width and height of facades as well as relationship of width to height and windows and doors acceptable. Rhythm visual patterns established by the alterations of solid walls and openings in the facade of a building creates a rhythm acceptable. Outdoor lighting fixtures structural design of outdoor lighting fixtures shall be compatible with the architectural design and function of the building and compatible with the neighborhood acceptable. Landscaping screening and site furnishings projects within the design review overlay district and subject to the landscaping requirements and section 3203 shall consider the following. Site furnishings including fencing seating other types of furniture visible from the street or side yards. Does landscaping obscure undermine key architectural patterns or elements on the historic building. Mechanical equipment screening obviously doesn't apply here. Restoric structures existing historic and contributing resources such as street trees fences gates walls steps because ebos walkways front and side yard pattern shall be retained or restored when impacted by alteration of a building. Walls and fences shall be compatible with the site and building and scale traditional materials designed that reflects the period of the building and or is compatible with the surrounding context acceptable. And then the recommendation which was an option for the applicant. The applicant has the option to add railings for the main entry to the building which match the proposed railings for the addition in the current application which could provide consistent design detail. All in favor of the application speak your names Eric. Steve this is Martha. I'm a no. Okay. And Steve so Ben is abstaining. Okay this vote is three to one. So Jesse I will be sending you and Matt a copy of a scan copy of this recommendation form so you guys can look it over and if you're okay with the result and the option that's in there I'll need Matt to sign it and send it back so that we can move forward on the rest of the administrative site plan. Okay awesome. Thank you Jesse. And Merritt if you if you want to know why I voted no I just don't think that the changes are consistent and with the existing historic building. Okay thank you for that Martha. Okay thank you good luck Jesse. All right thank you have a good night. Okay good night. The next application is for 39 Court Street owner Theo Kennedy applicant Don Forgez. I think we have both Theo and Don on and it looks like oh wait did we just it looks like we have Vince and Vanya got unmuted so Vince Vanya could you let us know what application? Can you guys hear us now? Yes. Great sorry about that we had a we're having a microphone issue on the computer we had the dial in. Oh that's that's another problem what what application are you on for? We are on for 35 and 41 Elm Street. Okay great um when we get there we will be happy to hear from you. Fantastic thank you. Thank you. Okay so yes we have Theo and Don on. Go ahead and describe your project for us. Good evening I'm going to defer to Don who has kindly been the applicant on my behalf. Okay good. Yes so I'll I'll start from the beginning I'm the contractor that was hired to do these railings so at one point Chris Lumber had come by there's a sale of the building to a new owner and and he made several recommendations of what needed to be done to bring some certain things up to code what I was hired for is on the exterior the railing the the the original railing is is far too low to meet any standard it's supposed to be 42 inches of which Chris had mentioned that uh so what what we've done in the past I've actually done I think it was 17 Court Street somewhere down the street I did the same thing we've done this multiple times is just in set from the original railing you don't touch the original railing because you want to keep the historic value of it you do a black aluminum railing which tends to blend in at the proper height then that was Chris Lumber's recommendation uh so we're going to do that and the main railing and then I did include a picture in the application if you look to the left side the case railing was obviously added later and the plan there is to just bring that up to code it is not to height and the spacing on the on the balusters are too wide so that's a that's basically what I'm looking to apply for is just simply doing the aluminum inset railing to match exactly the same shape and size there can be seven posts three eight foot sections in the front one six foot section on the right one almost three foot section on the left and then an inset if you look at the picture inset uh coming back towards the right side of about to have three feet of the black aluminum railing and then just a rebuild of the railing on the staircase Mary just do you have a picture of that I can pull up the application give me a minute because I want to scroll to the right page on my packet before I share so I don't make everybody dizzy because it's a long way to scroll tonight so this is the stretch sorry let me know when you can see it I can see that yeah this is the stretch of railing this one that goes down here here and then it also wraps around here because this is like a two stage stairwell right Don it is there's a landing you can see in the middle yep and then more stairs up here so that's where the black railing is going to go and then this railing is the one that's going to be rebuilt correct it'll be similar to be a little nicer it's just as you can see the bouts there's a too far apart I think they're seven inch space they have to be four inch on center yep and then the height of that railing at the landing is shy of about four or five inches whatever it is so that this is that was obviously added later so I'm just going to make a nicer railing and replace it to get it up to code and then like I said the the recommendation of Chris Lumber and we've done this before in Montpere and obviously I've done it in other towns like Burlington as you just do a railing just four to six four to six inches on the inside of the existing railing in the black aluminum it doesn't stick out it tends to blend in and a lot of people don't even notice it but then at least it brings it up to code how is that railing attached either to the post and or existing railing so I'm going to I'm not even attaching to the building I'm going to do seven posts all attached to the decking using timber locks which are equal to a three eighth leg in terms of code so that therefore if somebody in the future wants to remove it for whatever reason it can be done without any changes damage to the existing railing or the house so that aluminum railing we don't have a picture of it we just have this black and white photo of existing and so that aluminum railing will have its own individual posts but to support it but no balusters oh no they're bad the balusters there'll be certainly railings there there'll be the balusters at four inches on center I do have a picture I can pull up of one that I've done this is the actual you know that's fine I don't know if you can see this on your video can you email it to me because I can then share it you have my email because I can pull it up on my email and then share it on the big screen um do do do if you could just shoot me your email record just tell me I'll write it in go ahead uh oh I was just gonna I thought like you got emailed um so it's m krandall c-r-a-n-d-a-l-l at smott pilier hyphen vt.org okay hopefully that all worked actual size well hopefully that just went off to you uh let's see give it a minute um I thought I emailed you directly when I sent out the did I could probably you're right I could probably pull up something well no I'm using both sorry that's okay was yours the yahoo account correct the toy started towards you okay right because I'm not getting it so give me one second just in case there was a typo there I just emailed you as well um okay let me go back there we go all right there we go hold on got it you did get something all right and then I'll also send off all four rows sorry guys I'm gonna get it into a document so it opens better when I'm just gonna send you a sample of my traditional railing that I do let's see hopefully that'll work for the actual staircase railing where is it okay one second sorry here we go that's a little so that's so that's a sample that that's that's the actual railing that I be doing with the post that's that that is the wolf railing okay so that would be inside right yeah so it'd be just four to six inches to the inside basically mimicking the railing the existing railing but without touching it and so the existing railing would stay so the balusters would then be redundant that's the whole idea is that because it's a stork in the historic district you don't want to touch the existing railing but the existing railing doesn't mean code it's actually really shy uh for height uh requirements so what we've done and we've done this in the past I think 17 court street something of that nature um we did the same thing you do an instant rail and actually uh while I was there most most recently there was another gentleman he said he'd never even noticed it so that's the whole idea is it blends in and the balusters on the existing railing what's the spacing on them those I believe are four inches on center to meet code and the height of that rail is 30 some odd inches no it has to be 40 inches uh 42 the post on the existing railing the height in the existing railing is yeah roughly I'd say 30 I've seen this done I think it can be effective yeah I mean the whole idea is to not mess up the historic uh nature of the building but to bring it up to code that's that's the whole and that's and by the way just that Chris lumber when he came and met I believe he met with uh Sarah uh Sarah Shea who's one of the property managers and I'm not sure if he spoke with you as well but that was his recommendation as well he did he did meet with me on site when he uh recommended or required this anybody have any questions any of the numbers I'm not clear on why if the current balusters are four inches on center uh and meet code in that regard uh while you're putting uh the verticals in the new railing sorry I guess the single pipe at the appropriate height would seem to meet code to me if that's if that if those railings are are meet the four inch requirement if the post in the existing before inch requirement those those balusters are not spaced I might I might have miscommunicated they're not properly spaced uh and then I was led to believe that we should not touch the existing railing whatsoever because that was the discussion originally is to add above the existing railing uh to meet code height right it was it was told to me and I believe Chris lumber had explained it as you don't want to touch the original railing you want to leave that intact I yes I think that's correct but I would you don't know exactly the spacing on the existing I believe the the the front ones are six and the staircase are seven so they don't meet code outside the right okay so it'd be difficult to either run wire or something to to meet the spacing because then you would have to have that spacing all the way up to 42 inches so he would if you were to do a pipe rail you'd have to do three of them above the existing rail and then now it's starting to get a little encumbered well in just this practice we've done this in Monterey before this has been the practice the black aluminum inset rail and as well I've done at other locations in Vermont it seemed to have been the best solution we've come up with so far without touching and destroying or damaging the historic railing and we're sort of stuck again you have a difficult situation and how best to solve the code issues without impacting the building and and damaging or detracting from what the original detail is yeah absolutely there's a in the back of the the packet on this that was circulated there is a view of the house from a little further away that I can pull up I don't know if it's gonna help at all just to sort of get a sense of oh huh it's in my printout but it's not in the scanned version I don't think well that's annoying um I don't know how that happened um but there was a google image that Audra added to the printouts um I have that yes okay so it's in the print anybody who has a printed packet has that I have it there to see pardon I have it okay um it's just a google image that Audra pulled where you can see the house from a distance um they might give a little better view of of how it's gonna you know how it could blend in especially with the the way that the port with the porch roof shades that area I'm good with that and it's reversible yes yeah yeah okay unless anybody has anything else to add I can go through the criteria the exterior design and materials of new construction or alterations of existing buildings shall be consistent and compatible with the characteristics of the existing building or other properties in the district the removal of historic materials or alteration of features and spaces that characterize an historic property shall be avoided character defining features finishes and construction techniques or examples of craftsmanship that characterize an historic building shall be preserved which is happening in the preservation of the existing railings deteriorated character defining features shall be repaired rather than replaced where the severity of deterioration requires a replacement of a character defining feature the new features shall be replaced in kind any treatments that cause damage to historic materials which is not happening here that's acceptable for historic structures any new development shall be differentiated from the old but shall respect and be compatible with a massing size scale architectural features detailing an overall character of their primary historic building and nearby historic properties acceptable additions to buildings called for by public safety accessibility and fire codes shall be designed to maintain the character of the construction materials and features to the maximum extent feasible acceptable respect views of the state house dome acceptable architectural features including but not limited to cornices windows shutters fan lights and tabulated to trim and other forms of molding or character defining detailing prevailing on the existing building shall be considered in the alteration of a building architectural features on an addition shall not duplicate but they'll respect the original historic buildings architectural features acceptable and porches and stairs on historic structures stairs ramps and porches shall employ suitable detailing to connect to be compatible with the historic and important design features of the existing buildings and new construction acceptable um only recommendation would be paint paint your railings existing railings before you put the new and send just for access and all in favor of the application speak your names Eric then vote is five to zero in favor thank you all very much so uh there weren't any changes to the recommendations really on here that are um binding so we will move forward on this uh permit pretty quickly do you want it sorry i'm going back to the application where did you say to have stuff sent to applicant uh so do you want us to mail the permit to you don't it'll need to be posted at the project site it might be better so we're on a bit of a timeline because of the sale of the building uh feeling those more i can swing by and get it if it's not a problem yep i'll put a note to email you once it's issued okay sounds excellent so i'll bring it up oh go ahead sorry i said i'll pick it up when it's ready and bring it to the site yeah exactly so where meredith what are we looking at in terms of when i could start on this um so i'm gonna talk to you tomorrow okay okay i'll be in the office fairly early give me a ring okay i can do that okay awesome yeah great thank you have a good evening thank you me too thank you and good luck with your project thank you very much you can move to the next application for three Chapman road owner applicant ben dole for construction of a new woodshed describe your project so ben if you want to come up to the seat here in front of the there and then just make sure the microphone is fairly close to you so that we can get you recorded for the minutes i'm gonna recuse myself with this i can leave the room or i can just sit here i'm sorry i'm ben dole i should describe my project yes yeah i would just start by apologizing for the i am clearly not a talented artist but i tried to sketch out what i'm trying to do basically just build a i'm trying to build a woodshed uh you know for the last few years i've stacked my wood and covered it with tin and it's really a mess and so uh just trying to build a 10 by 20 foot shed kind of saltbox style roof just really a woodshed with an open bay that i envisioned being um 10 to 12 feet wide and then a kind of door on the side that will serve as additional point of access well actually two doors one if i'm coming down the steps from the house i can walk right into the side of the woodshed so it'll be a door there and then uh on the front facing the street it would be a wide bay where you know stack the wood and then on the to the right of that bay is another small door um that would be serviced kind of like a garden shed or another point of access and then on that on that far wall there'd be um a small window that would look out to the yard and then on the back there'd be three um three windows really for more for ventilation than for anything else be asphalt shingles whole thing would be built out a rough cut lumber and then shingled with um cedar shingles which is what i have in my house that's a nice description and i appreciate your apology on the on the drawings and sort of as a general comment i'm feeling a little sad about the information that we're getting to be able to try and make decisions about um these things like i you know we really you know what i'm looking at with this drawing and even back to like stuff coming like i feel like those railings that on jessies were important and those that was hard to see and then not having any information about what the actual railing behind the other railing is other than like a small so i'm feeling like it's hard to make a decision on these things uh and that's that's a broad comment not necessarily specific to your project but um the uh you're intending to do a cedar shake on the outside of this that is yeah in that and i uh yes and i would say actually in the in the i i'm not obviously a talented visual artist but i did write a kind of detailed description that describes all the materials style but yeah the whole thing would be covered in cedar shakes uh wood windows the doors i was going to build the doors myself using uh tongue and group you know like tongue and group b board just so that it'd be like a solid uh i wasn't gonna paint i was just gonna leave it natural colors throughout um but the windows double two double hung side by side no i was you know to be honest i haven't bought the windows yet i was just gonna get like old the bottom half of a stash from a salvage yard you know down at white river from on salvage they have a bunch of different sizes i'm open to you know i could do single pane or split pane um they have a white selection i just haven't bought them yet no at the picture show it looks like two windows together yeah i'm sorry i was just thinking of a single sash with a with a uh a divider down yeah okay well if it's a double hung one that you would have a it would be probably it'd be a single it'd be a single sash so you're talking about like one half of a double hung so how would they open on hinges okay pop out okay can you say an asphalt shingle yeah i was i was gonna i mean i'm open to whatever but i was gonna just use the architectural asphalt shingles got asphalt shingles in the house yep yep would you paint it the same color as the house you know i i i'm not planning on painting it right now i i think i might be back someday about the paint color of my house and just kind of wait i think then would you be doing like trim details that match yeah i would yep um it looks like you have some shingled corners and some corner boards i guess i'm looking at this photograph here and not seeing the presence of a corner board and seeing where i think that's a i mean it's harder to achieve but i think it's a nice look and the shingles come together on the corners but whether uh and maybe you haven't just be i mean i'm open to whatever but to be honest i really like visually i like having that like a narrow trim yeah on either side and then yeah clearly it just i don't know what i'm looking at yeah corner board yeah corner board is much easier in terms of construction than having it last because shingles tend to i mean no matter how close you cut them and put them together they always will separate on the corner just from differences in uh temperature and moisture levels i think your house is a really remarkable cool house and i know that you will do a nice job and do a nice thing so i i feel confident in that but i appreciate the questions i have to say it like i love my house you know and i uh eric knows this i used to live across the street and i love that house and uh i don't want to mess this house up and do you plan on doing the work yourself i do yep and even though i can't draw i actually um i've worked construction in the past and feel confident that i can pull off a wood shed that's it i don't think we're going to see too many shingled wood sheds before the design review committee so i agree with that and your application says that you're at least 40 feet away from any property line is that correct um uh yeah that it's i want to say it's right in the middle of my property it's a three-quarter acre lot i'm trying to remember the distance between the front of the wood shed in the street but if you sit on here it's about 140 feet to one street 100 feet to the other that's right i mean it's it more than complies with the setback requirements the setbacks are much smaller than that okay i think it actually like well in in the summertime anyway nobody's going to see it except for when you're driving by my driveway um it's pretty well screened i just made a general comment that the proposed wood shed would have details including siding trim roofing materials in color to match or be compatible with the existing house as much as possible which is i think the way you described it any other comments questions suggestions from anyone we'll go through the criteria exterior design and materials of new construction or alterations of existing buildings should be consistent and compatible with the characteristics of the existing building or other properties in the district new construction should be considered to be compatible if the materials used possess a kind or type that are appropriate to the district material selected shall either fit the neighborhood context to the proposed building and a reflect the nature and use of the structure acceptable existing building should be recognized as a physical record of their time place and use acceptable i'm not sure why reviews of the state house don't we're in here but i will call it acceptable since it's nowhere near it okay uh height new buildings should be compatible with the varied heights of existing adjacent buildings acceptable proportion compatibility of relationship between width and height are for sods as well as relationship of width to height of windows and doors acceptable rhythm the visual pattern established by the alterations of solid walls and openings windows and doors and the facade of the building shall create a rhythm acceptable roof shape and equipment consider similarity or compatibility with with your roof shapes and immediate area conceal rooftop equipment and then there will be none acceptable in this structure architectural features including but not limited to cornices windows shutters fan lights and tabulator trim and other forms of molding or character defining detailing prevailing on the existing building should be considered in the alteration of a building that one actually not applicable probably okay i'll call it i'll just call it not applicable here yeah i missed one it's like a criteria for new buildings only new development shall incorporate sustainable design and construction methods and materials compatible with the historic materials and styles acceptable scale and massing of new buildings shall be compatible with surrounding structures acceptable context and connectivity building design shall be sensitive to the overall character and context of the design review overly strict and to adjacent buildings acceptable accessory buildings and structures new accessory building the structure shall be located within either the side yard or rear yard and shall not visually disrupt the streetscape or affect the integrity of the existing building or propose new building acceptable all in favor of the application speak your names then this is martha on a yes yes yes and steve yes vote is for to nothing in favor so ben there's a pen there you're going to want to sign the bottom of this and then just pass it to me so we can get your permit issued right right down there i have it here on the minute notes that i'll send to tam not a big deal thank you so much thank you then we'll just make a note on the bottom of that you know what you can probably give that to me because nobody else is here for this thanks everybody thank you next application for 35 to 41 elm street honor tim air applicant erin ansel ansel carpentry review addition of a covered porch seating for the adjacent restaurant is someone here to describe the project yes i am erin ansel been contracted to build this structure by vince and vanya who are also in attendance they own the hippie chickpea and just want to expand their seating options anyway so yeah erin if you want to just describe the project um and any you know key design decisions that were made when developing it sure um so uh adjacent to 35 elm is i think a five car parking area um and they want to turn one of those spaces into this deck and covered eating area there's a server station in the small bar area in the back seating bar not a not a server bar some of the concerns are just making is it's in the flood plain making sure that it would be securely attached so we're going to put a few helical piers through the asphalt um and connect the deck structure to those um the uh uh ground is fairly level but does go up and down a little bit so we're we're going to raise you don't need to raise the platform up um i think three rises or three steps about about maybe about 20 inches or so um and one of the things we wanted to try and do was to get a ramp in there for uh better accessibility um but it was going to take about a third or more of the deck space um early a significant amount of the seating area so uh we'll have a a sort of you know put portable ramp now we can move into place as needed um um there's sort of rails uh for safety i guess all around the structure um let's see what else um i don't know i guess that's uh about it for the moment any questions or or vince and vanya do you want to add anything hippie chickpea is going to run this hi there vince and vanya we're the with the operators and owners of hippie chickpea hi vince nice to have you on and vanya hi hi there nice to be here we're excited about this project uh i hope i hope everyone on the call is as well um for us it's uh it's a project we thought we would eventually do when we took over the space just because the dining room is pretty tiny um obviously last two years dealing with covid we are takeout only this is going to help us um with our business to have seating if we were to open the dining room again it would be you know just a handful of seats so this is almost necessary um moving forward um the roof is so we could use it obviously more of the year um yeah we're happy to answer any questions while we're here i have two questions number one based on the the sketch is there a reason there's no fascia on the length of the building um that's a that's a good question uh there's actually one detail that i wanted to mention that that isn't drawn right i think that will want a fascia um for for luxe and and uh to help hold the structure together um uh and that material the sort of exposed rafters uh for posts um will be at a local hemlock um uh and then uh the server station uh is in cedar um but yes that will get a fascia and you're okay and second question why pick a red standing seam roof instead of like a black or dark bronze and there's no color chip with the application that i could could find um i can i can send uh i'm not sure at the moment but i can send a color uh to to to you guys um and i think maybe vince in mind you can speak better to this but hippy chickpea has sort of and that building is utilized a lot of different bright and vibrant colors and i think the the the roof was to just sort of continue that that sort of liveliness and trends but vince and varnia yes uh to add to that it's the color of the roof um the the color of the building now is is gray with a red trim we installed an awning on the front of the building over the takeout area that's uh red um brick color red maroon if you will so the roof would match the color of the awning so i'm gonna pull up the front of the building right now that shows doesn't have the awning on it but it has shows the red trim yeah the awning matches that red trim it's that's currently there now that's a that's an older photograph yep that's an older photograph but it's what i can pull up just on google maps so the fan the fan is is uh to the left of the front door where the parking meter is and the white flowers yep and the two those are now that's our to-go window takeout area um we are not currently doing uh in room and dining in person i guess you call it so the the awning we recently installed matches the red trim and we thought the roof would look nice to match the awning and the red trim got it so it's can can you get roofing that's subtle enough to match that some of the red roofing is a little bright because this is more of sort of almost a bricky red well the the trick is can you find standing seeing colored roofing that's that color but unfortunately we've seen some red roofing that's a bit on the bright side which would detract from your entire structure um so i am looking for the um red options that they have uh um but it's um it's a good i'm i'm i'm not sure uh i vincevone did you remember the color name that you had uh there was only one red option on the website for the roofing company and it seemed to match almost exactly and it and it was not shiny at all kind of a matted um yeah brick it so i i could i could pick up a sample of the color and and match it to the trim that's there and if it seems too bright maybe we should have a have a a different option um i don't know if that would yeah i mean we would open the suggestions if it's if uh black matt color or bronze or whatever is that something that's more uh you know matching to or for whatever reason the the board thinks that would be a better option we're open to that um i think we could we could certainly submit a swatch or or kind of get you guys the info if needed um i don't have it in front of me i'm trying to pull it up but it's a color that matches yeah the trim and the awning yeah it's not a different shade of red that would be too bright it's just uh appropriate we could perhaps just uh condition it that the roofing be as close as possible to the trim and awning yeah we definitely option yeah yeah with an option to go with something that's more like a muted black or matte black or gray if for some reason the red that really is available doesn't match as well i think that's what steve is probably writing right now on the recommendation form um that'll get emailed you guys okay that's perfect okay ben has a couple questions you have uh stainless steel point two different locations one of which seems to be a uh a bar that looks out over the river looks like a nice place to sit and then the other is that indicating stainless steel cable or some sort of wire like um it's it's uh like um like like like hog wire i guess yeah um yeah stainless yeah yep and then my other question i guess was sounds like you're going to be doing exposed rafters is that true mm-hmm and so is the sheathing on top of that boards or plywood like when you're looking up on the underside of the roof um yep i was going to use uh perlens hemlock one by uh huh yep and just with some with some sort of see the underside of the metal roofing sit say it again you'll see the underside of the standing seam roofing so you would you would see the underside of the metal roofing yes yeah from from the seated positions at least yeah and walking down the sidewalk um yeah you you would from when the person stand yep is this attached to the building or how is it attached um the it it it is attached to the building yes uh at the at the the the peak of the roof i guess uh it's not really a peak but the highest point so this is really a permanent structure it's not movable like the park once correct very much permanent yeah this will be here year round how is it going to be attached to the building it it will likely that the deck will likely not be attached though they're um most likely there'll be a set of piers uh um closer to the house as well closer to the building and i'm sorry but just back to Ben's question about seeing the underside of the metal um it we could use a plywood below the metal as well to cover that um instead of the perlens i like i like the perlens i'd prefer boards but that's you know that's a lot of boards but boards as in as you're sheathing you know like a roughs-on board that you're then attaching you're solidly done and then putting your your stand just just no spaces between yeah but that's a lot of boards i get that i know the reason why you would do perlens yeah um this is martha is there any lighting proposed uh there isn't but there there uh probably should be in there yeah we will we will definitely be adding lighting um is that something we need to submit with this would you would you prefer uh like recessed cans or some fixtures you know hanging down or what what are your thoughts on possible fixtures we were thinking patio type lighting uh leds and i think something that would be dimmable so what type of patio lighting yeah do you mean down low or up high from the roof up high from the roof you can make them come back with a separate application but they if they're not quite ready to propose i mean the the lighting does need a zoning permit and because it's technically exterior it needs design review um um so yeah it either needs to be part of this permit or needs to be um a separate permit how far are you along in figuring out what light fixtures you want because i don't want to hold up building this space for the light fixtures right the reason we didn't uh submit it or we don't you know it's not finalized it's because we were going to use this deck for lunch only in the beginning um but we're happy to we could submit something separately for that yeah well because because you probably want to get going and building this as soon as possible exactly yeah so maybe maybe the three of us can meet separately to go over what the the parameters are for the outdoor lighting requirements to see what you can fit in there because we have a bunch of lumen specifications and i've got to look at what else is on the building so maybe we do that as a permit if that's okay you can you can also do something that's temporary which would be uh some either cable or string lighting using led which are not overly bright and can be and can be put on dimmers as well yeah you could start with that exactly what we're yeah that's exactly what we're thinking of doing uh we weren't aware that that needed to be like a design review type thing but we're happy to happy to show you separately too but that that was our mindset we could actually make an an option for you could do uh black string or cable lighting with led fixtures dimmable led fixtures yeah that's exactly what we're gonna do okay i'll just we'll still need to before i can issue the permit i'll still need to review all the other lighting fixtures that are on the parcel so it's not actually your building it's the parcel that this is on so that the other building's on to make sure that because there's like a maximum amount of light that can be emitted from a parcel um so we'll we'll maybe talk tomorrow absolutely quick okay it as i understand you're not penetrating the building at all you're not putting your windows or doors in no correct so there's no direct access from the restaurant on to this um patio that's right right you come out and you walk along the sidewalk correct mm-hmm yes it's fairly close to the front door yeah okay the other nice thing about string lighting is that you can mount it where you think you need it and then it's easy to move if you prefer the lighting to be directed in a little different direction exactly that's what we thought that we would we would kind of pick out the type of lighting or the design of the lighting but then we would once the deck was built we would see where it would be located okay so the uh the two options if a standing seam roof is to be a red color the color should be a brick red matte color in a darker shade to match the building trim and awning colors another option and again it's your option is to use a matte black or dark bronze color compatible with the building and surrounding buildings in the area and then i just made a note standing seam colors last a long time so make sure it's exactly what you want and that the lighting option is for black cable or string lighting mounted to the roof rafters with dimmable led lighting for interior patio lighting what about throwing some gray as a accessible color for the roof as well yeah i like that idea so a matte black or dark gray or dark bronze color compatible with the building and surrounding buildings in the area and again the darker color the darker you go the better off you are the other advantage of a dark color is that if you do use it seasonally dark colors will get rid of any snow load whether you're using the patio at that time or not it's still a maintenance issue and a dark color will melt snow loads quicker than anything else that's the great point i have a feeling we're gonna probably reconsider black any other comments questions or suggestions just comment it's clear that you're intending to do a nice job here by your choice of contractor in your choice of materials and so i look forward to and appreciate the detailing and making a nice thing thank you we can go through the criteria quickly exterior design and materials of new construction or alterations of existing buildings should be consistent and compatible with the characteristics of the existing building or other properties in the district removal of historic materials and spaces that characterize an historic property shall be avoided that's fine here character defining features finishes and construction techniques or examples of craftsmanship that characterize an historic building shall be preserved there are no deteriorated defining features here and no treatments that cause damage to historic materials so that's acceptable for historic structures any new development shall be differentiated from the old but shall respect and be compatible with the massing size scale architectural features detailing an overall character of the primary historic building and nearby historic properties acceptable location and appearance of all utilities mechanical equipment trash storage and fencing shall be cited to minimize adverse visual impact or adequately and appropriately screened from public view acceptable alterations to buildings called for by public safety accessibility and fire coach will be designed to maintain the character of the existence of the construction materials and features to the maximum extent feasible acceptable height height of building addition shall not overwhelm the primary facade and must consider varied heights of existing buildings and adjacent buildings acceptable proportion compatibility of relationship between width and height or facades as well as relationship of width to height of any windows and doors they're just openings on this addition roof shape and equipment consider similarity or compatibility with roof shapes in the immediate area reforms and pets shall not be altered on the primary facade acceptable architectural features including but not limited to cornices windows shutters fan lights and tabulator trim and other forms of molding or character defining detailing prevailing on the existing building shall be considered in the alteration again that was one of the reasons we would suggested the the trim on the addition to match in terms of the fascia architectural features on an addition shall not duplicate but respect the originally historic buildings architectural features acceptable landscaping straining and site furnishings site furnishings including fencing seating other types of site furniture visible from the street or side yards for historic structures is that existing historic and contributing resources such as street trees fences gates walls steps gazebos walkways front and side yard patterns shall be retained or restored when impacted by the alteration of the building this i know yeah i mean you've got seating that you're proposing but it's not yes peripheral walls and fences shall be compatible with the site and the building and scale traditional materials and design that reflects the period of the building and or is compatible with the surrounding content acceptable porches and stairs on the stark structures location of porches ramps and stairs should be placed in a manner that does not impact or undermine the original and significant ornamentation or detailing of the existing building stairs ramps and porches shall employ suitable detailing to connect and be compatible with the historic and important design features of the existing building and new construction stairs and ramps shall be designed in a manner with details and materials that provide the most sensitive and compatible structure that fits the building design and layout acceptable all in favor of the application speak your names eric and marcia and steve i know we're almost there guys thank you so vote is five to nothing in favor um so as with some of the others there's recommendations and language on this um form and so i will send a scan version uh to erin i don't think i have vince and van actually i think i have vince's email somewhere in my email but i'll send it around erin i'll need to to sign it because he's listed as the applicant for this application and i will need some additional details on the lighting we'll work that out but we can talk tomorrow um to figure out the lighting so that we can get the administrative site plan out the door as soon as possible okay great absolutely that sounds great thank you very much thank you all awesome thank you thank you good luck with your project thanks have a good night everybody good night tonight and we can move on to the next application 51 berlin street uh arjana and maria quadros accelerate permits applicant so we have lori on from accelerate yes i am here so we are actually back in front of you once again um back in december i believe it was you approved uh canopy with um a new menu board and when the installer went out to work on the installation they found that there's this exterior ladder that goes on the um that goes up to a loft area and because of that ladder the installation of a canopy wasn't possible so now we're back in front of you asking um instead of having this menu board on a canopy if we can have the menu board mounted actually to the building and just a quick note if the design review committee feels like this is not enough of a difference that it should have come back let me know it just felt to me that previously it was separate from the building on its own you know canopy and pedestal and now it's attached to the building itself so to me it felt like it was too different from the prior application to just be an administrative approval but but if you think otherwise then let me know so that i will have that information for future applications not that there's all that many menu boards in my pillar but is the proposed board in the same location underneath the ladder it's just closer to the building yes yes that's correct it'll be in pretty much identical spot where it is now yes it looks to me like i mean like it's basically a big tv is that correct yes it is give or take it's the only yeah it's a little little different but basically it's the same type of design it just doesn't have a base underneath it's just attached to the building yes that's correct and i realize this is different but whether internally lit signs is a thing well yeah that's because this doesn't actually qualify as a sign because it's not made for you off the property yeah it falls into a different category that's specific to a special use of drive-throughs so this aspect it's not quite the same thing as the internally lit signs just glow forever it's just there's just enough lighting so you can read the menu yeah basically as far as i don't know if anybody else feels the same way but basically it's the same thing it's just attached to the building instead of on a stand the appearance is essentially the same you want to just just say it's okay as is is the existing one does that one light up too not it's not lit in the same way but yes there there is lighting so that you can see it um you know after dark um but the new board um yes the new board is internal illumination was the other board internally lit or externally lit the existing or the one that was approved yes the one that was the one that was approved was this it's virtually identical um the one that was approved in december um the only difference now is this will be mounted against the building okay i think you can probably do that unless anybody thinks differently i think it can be administratively approved it's the same thing just attached to the building i i agree okay yeah good then you don't need this all right so we're not you're not doing a new recommendation form i will just amend the prior permit so they're all not we won't need to have a new permit issued um yeah you it's i'm gonna i'm gonna send an official letter that's amending the prior permit um that's still open okay because the design review committee basically saying they didn't really want to see this again so so that'll be easy okay great thank you so much i appreciate your time thank you for coming to the meeting we appreciate your time and good luck hope this works with your stairs thank you very much if you can still order coffee and donuts that's that's good you'll be able to get your coffee and donuts and sandwiches everything okay thank you thank you thank you good night good night and we can move to the next application for one prospect street and vermont state housing authority do we have someone representing the application good and what what's your name susan kughal you have that yep i got it and describe the change in the sign so currently the front of our building has um letters to say one prospect street what we're going to do is to dedicate the building to um our executive director who retired last june uh richard was an employee of the agency for over 50 years wow um he started the house authority itself started in 1968 i believe richard started his employment as a uh accountant here at the house authority somewhere around 1972 um in the 80s he became executive director and um held that position until he retired last year so a few folks here at the house authority would like to show our appreciation for all he has done for the citizens of vermont social low income enactment folks by dedicating our building to him so the building now where it says one prospect street once we get it painted and that it would be painted the same colors it currently is um would be to have the building say the williams building one prospect street from last day house authority the letters are black and they will be mounted to the building in the same way the current letters are mounted to the building will the letters have some dimensionality to them like the current one prospect or will they be flat yeah that's a really good question um i was told that going to look similar to the bill the letters we have now that sounds nice they're going to be black letters yes they are black they will be black and the current letters up there are black in your application where it says one prospect street much smaller than it does in the existing thing are those also going to be black um so everything the letters that are up there now are coming down and all the letters going up will be consistent in size okay um and all of those letters will be black okay okay yeah because that i just shared on the screen that like the mock-up has different sized lettering are you saying it would all be the same size lettering yeah like each line would be the same size okay so these are the different sections but they will be different sizes here it's this is accurate um to best of my knowledge that is accurate and they will all be black they will all be the same color okay yeah the reason for my question was here this the one prospect street looks gray rather than black i'm told that they're all going to be black okay fine it seems like the vermont state of housing authority and one prospect are the same font just different line weights is that maybe it's maybe it's the gray i think that is correct i think um and they probably look a little bit bigger because the ones look a little gray um and they're certainly different size sorry the cleaning crew is here cleaning so you might hear them coming very soon so as we can see what the actual colors of the building are the proposed is um a black and white but that's what the the green colors of the building so it'll have the black lettering i just put down that the new lettering since i didn't see it in the rest of the application that the new lettering will be a black color with dimension depth similar to the existing lettering and again in relation to the size of the lettering any other comments questions or suggestions then again i can go through the criteria this is criteria for signs in the design control district the size location design color texture lighting and material of all exterior designs within the design review district should be compatible with the building and structures of the site and surrounding properties acceptable where appropriate signing shall respect the original sign placement and sign bands on the structures acceptable the building has multiple tenants should show the consistency and placement of size among all signs i think housing authority is the only one here so that's not applicable it is recommended that sign placement be centered over building entries acceptable sign installation shall minimize damage to character defining materials for the building acceptable sign design color and typography shall respect historic precedents where appropriate and shall be of the appropriate scale for existing and new buildings acceptable sign support structures will be compatible with the building architecture and must not be overly complex or dominant in and of themselves acceptable all in favor of the application for the sign letterings speak your names yes eric this is martha i'm a yes yes list and steve is yes so five to nothing in favor of the new proposed lettering thank you very much everyone have a good evening you too susan i'll send you an email with the form okay terrific thank you very much for coming good night and has anyone had a chance to look at the meeting minutes from march the 21st yes i'll move approval and this is martha i'll second it all in favor of the minute speak your names i would like to make one adjustment okay i am on the 66 main street if there's a passage here saying that i clarified that the seating structures do have floors approximately one inch above grade they will be more like seven inches they were never to be one inch okay i must have misheard my notes thank you that's okay be a very thin structure and with that change do i hear a motion to approve i'm in i'll second it all in favor speak your names better eric steve martha and liz was not there okay does anybody have anything else to add at this point or do i hear a motion to adjourn so we'll move that says eric all in favor speak your names then eric steve meeting is adjourned and we do have a meeting it's not didn't make it on here but we do have a meeting on the 16th we already have three applications for it so there may be quite a few by the time we get there thank you thank you for the night okay good night