 to the Insan Literature Group of Virusine Chat. The Virusine Chat is a program of the Literature Archives in the state of Chicago. I'm Doug O'Keefe, a host and producer of the chats. Today, my guest is Margaret Graff of Tronson, Norway. And me, Arlene, Tronson, will be the very first Virusine Chats above the Arctic Circle. So, now Arlene, what are your feelings of being the first Norwegian Virusine Chats above the Arctic Circle? I'm so proud of you, Arlene. I'm so proud of you, because the way you do it is so important. Thank you. Now, what do you think is unique about Norway to church? I think that we're kind of, kind of in the world of including animal in the church. We believe in the rosary, we believe in the blood. Before we get too far, we're going to very, very important speak to you, this church. Please tell us about this church here at Tronson. This is what we innovation call Tronson Longing Gap. It's the main church in the city. Now, it is approximately 150 years old, of this style. I've been taking seven years, and I don't do that anymore. But my parents, they do things and needs with the church and the world of doing it for everyone. We are all here. What work did you do here? I was working in the children's youth and the rainbow boss, the stories from rainbow stories. Education. There are some plans to use the services here that are very important to the life of the church. Yeah, tomorrow we will have a service. I'm in Bishop, living with the very first time of joy. I'm here to look at his speech. I'm here also to participate in the communion, which is a very important single for the church. Why so? Because we think that we're on the right way. Thus, here, everyone is going just to be a human being. When we were preparing for this ceremony, you told me a little about your growing up in your family. Please explain that for me, Alice. I grew up in a little village called Voldemort. It's a place in the northern part of Norway, and the song you're going to show is really strong back now, but for several years it was addressed. They wrote the love, speaking the language, they're doing the singing of songs, they're doing the burning calories. Children were taken from families and sent to the end of their boarding school when they had to leave. They were forbidden to talk the song language. Instead, they lived with the people in Norway. And of course, very climatic, filled with both shame, shame of being cruelly in the bar, who you want to be. And it's almost like when someone is drowning and trying to help them, the process is kind of gross, evil, but if it doesn't make its worth it, and now there's nothing else, it's really growing and getting so much stronger. I had to... Ah. Yeah. Please explain for me the international life is a little more out of some culture. I think many people don't know. I think you can count on compared to the native Americans that believing that the earth is holy, the name is kind of a God, the water, the earth, that the earth is divine and that we should treat it with deep respect. And the music was very deep, using that, you know, from just like a native American. Now, has this process of taking your children to know this whole song? Yeah, this song, I think, may 60, maybe a little later. Now, the Song culture is very unique to Norway. Where exactly did someone find you in the cities? Actually everywhere in Norway, because some of us still feel deep in shape about being something. And I think you can count on compared to being the group, you do have the risk of being called one, to get the next, it's it's love, things like that. Just hoping to do the best things in terms of such a night. You were 14 years old. You created this study. Tell us about that. Yeah, I was getting really good at school. So instead of just being paralyzed and doing nothing, I said to myself, but back then we had to do something to create a meaning of being here. And then the whole world, this is back in the 80s, and okay, why not? What are these? So I created this number one piece, and we were thinking of politics, history, what to do, just looking at it so helpless. How many people were part of this group? 80 to 10, I mean. This was a really small place. 800 people together in my class were 16, and they were joined by students from three other schools and then they left every two of us. What sorts of things did you do? In a certain group of students, we were really used to having a very open body, getting used to keeping up to date with the news. And this was many many years before this social media had a new social cluster, and once I got to it, if I hadn't been in, right, down, so we didn't make work, they would have sent in a lot, and maybe it was really what I'd taken, and I guess we did, but not necessarily to the news people and the people. What particular topics during the Cold War were you most? The risk of the atomic bomb, and I just knew before that the whole part of what I did was just being erased as a picture of what I was doing and what I was writing, standing in gasoline, up to the whole day, and I was like, wow. Well, you're a teacher, and in history, some people are true to this. I really love you. I believe in the power of the Buddha. It's kind of good to believe that people are good. It's a change during the end of the day, because I really like optimism, and I do need to change. And I love the stories. Who don't see what they do, was the motivation for their decision to make. And since I arrived to the world, when people are curious, really need knowledge, what would be a better job than being a teacher? I wouldn't imagine that. What sort of motivation is that? That a change is possible if you do acknowledge people, people and their way of experiencing the world. I can say that's wrong, but I can say that I hear you, I see you, and I do understand that this is either difficult, or important, or difficult or general, clearly between you. And then I ask what would you say? What has happened in your thesis? The paper marks this as an example because a lot of people I know in the queer community have so many bad experiences in the Jewish community. There's been a lot of talk about sin, shame, right-wing in arms, and hell. This is so far from the God I'm completely being. So I said to you, at least we do have to do something, because it's still and doesn't do anything about this. It can really mean that God is the creator of everything and the world. We have to shut it. The community today, there's a very big push for my thesis, who are women in the community. How do you, my head start in the community? That's a very big push there. I know who lost, but they gave me a lot of money and then of course I don't want to be to cry because the heaven and me are queer. Yeah. And I'm proud. And I do cry to be a preacher because I do believe that we're stronger together. We don't have to believe exactly the same things, but seeking was common. Seeking share is more important to me than looking for the differences. What does queer need to do? Something else than a square, that's the kind of form. Yeah. No. It doesn't matter to me. Really, it doesn't matter to me. Plus I'm difficult somewhere but no, it doesn't matter to me... What about... What person are who you are for 2 to 2 It's much smaller than the generation identify with, what we should say like this. You do it like this, okay, God is so much more than we can imagine that He's really trying to label God. God is divine, power, love, man who holds God. That's it. I'm trying to find a way for you to explain to us why we don't automatically go with the traditional. You can explain a little bit about that, but I think many people are a little confused. I don't think I told you this in the first time. It's better in the same way as you would have explained. And I don't know what to make. In the script it said the mayor was to be a man. You appeal all of the subjects really, really important. And as he gave it to us, I said, no, I want to be a man, and the other has to be a man. And so it's allowed us to have amazing voices, evil, fissure, man. Everything is allowed to be a man. So I don't know why. But I want to say that we strain people from being free, out of time and what you feel, using the knowledge and talents, very well. Me, the animal, and not being afraid of being a judge, learn how to take everything with the legs of Sue Smith. How do the audience react to that? They were really surprised because, of course, this was in our preview. So they had a better play. And so everything, and when they came upon the show, everything was allowed to be a man. Was it possible? Yeah, it was possible to be a man. I think it was a lot of services. Okay. But as I said in your show, you speak a lot about your religious faith. What so strongly draws you to more or less Christian ideology? Because I have to wonder why that versus Islam or Judaism, for example. I think, of course, my parents have a lot to do with it because both of them are Christian. And also in the community, I grew up with a very religious faith. And as well, we were not allowed to sing and do the same talk. But of course, there was a dance and singing. There was dance in the need to sing. Which is called singing itself. And when we were having a religious space, music worked a lot. And when we were supposed to learn about unaccepted, stupid, and separate manly parents who just grew together with the nations, so that their kids were able to see it. And of course, being a parable, I was trying to figure out what else is there on the topics. And my parents took me to some camp. We're a local priest from South Africa. And we're very close to national values. And I couldn't speak German. I think we also have a lot of very good German faith. You see that I am a student twice. And they were both Christian and rebels. And really, what else? Some of the human rights. And I thought, oh, that's my culture. And later on, I got a lot about feminist theology. We had a liberation theology in Latin America and the Holocaust, yeah? Yes. So, non-theology is about slow and non-serial. And not it's not justice. Not through votes. That's legal principles. We're pushing. So you can see that differently in the teachings of one. As I know them, yes. But at the same time, we do know that there are feminist teachings. Yeah. Yeah, there are changes. Both in Judaism and Christianity. It's not a liberal. The world is changing, but it takes time. There's something you think is a little separate from Christianity. Jesus himself was a rebel. He was actually a Jew. And I said, no, I'm a Christian. No, actually. So he was a revolutionary. And he saved the pros and cons. He saved the saviours, the peace, whatever. Yeah. I'm just trying to understand the difference between these so that it's clearer. I found your conviction to be very fascinating. Very powerful. So I'm trying to understand a little more. I think maybe you can compare it to our relationship. You will need a both interrelationship because it is sensible. Or you can be giving my up to be a model of faith. But my Christianity is pure love. It's not because it's so small. It's not just a favor. Even though for many years, I couldn't believe God had born because of that son of a Christian. It's too late. So many bad things to me are to reach out to other people, traction and blame in them. Just thinking about seeing their name in the heart of their being instead of being a model of God. And maybe go like this into the world. But that's not the way it is at all. That's a good judgment. It's all about love and aggression. Wow. I'm going back. I have a great question here to say. Are you made up for human faults? Yeah. I have done that. I will be the image. I'm really afraid. I'm not good. As we have been speaking this evening and actually about it, it's like when we prepared for this interview, you see people as walking energies, including something divine. Please explain that for us. Yeah. Nothing can come out of nothing. And when I die, my energy will disappear. My problem turning into the growth of ashes of the lotuses and my energy will not go away. It will take a long time. And if I do believe that I am walking energy, rushing to grandma in New York, and I do believe that nothing can come out of nothing, then there is something more. And that is really both fascinating and highly frightening even though I've lost a place because it makes it clear to me that there is something bigger than me. And I can feel it when I'm outside getting the grip in my face, the wall coming out from that sky. I can feel it when I'm touching the growth snow, feeling the struggle out on my face. What we need to be oxygenated and not being wasted. These are holy words. And when I do see you, and I see the growth in you, I see that you are. Because we are all created to be equal. Does it make sense? I'm not going to be sure. I just see it. And I completely understand what you seem to feel, what exactly it is. The first time I saw you was when you were a small man who was heartily covered in tears. I still feel a lot inside you. Yes, I'm able to feel through your eyes the way the muscles in your face is moving. It's very, very different. You open. You begin with this. I felt the curiosity that accept us. And those are positive emotions growing. I end. I'm not labeled as something grossly, even though I've seen many people on the earth. I feel if you're open to the energy of love, then you're a child of it. If you're not open to it, if you're not gay to it, you need to challenge it. Thank you. This is an artwork in which you smoke my legs and talk. Thank you. If you're not able to feel in love, you can't shambles it, or you can't express it, and if you need a thumbs up, show that all people are in love with God's divine. Very good. But also when we were preparing for this, and you mentioned this a few months ago, you said the institution of the church, however you define that, has alienated the distance and harmed people driving away from this church. How would the church do this? With the two speaking, that sex, sex, marriage is the same, homosexuality is the same. You don't speak a lot about fetish. You can do other stuff, and you can do everything in which other sex is the same. So everybody wants to have one more, another, one more fetish. We would feel ashamed if we do pay attention and listen. And they have said this for so many years, and not only that it's the same, but you do a lot of things you want to have, and you want to both have the way they describe it. No, no. So, people have been judged, labeled, and of course, we must be together and someone is going to have that kind of requires a lot of good life there. It seems to be one of those that's going to have no harm. So of course, I mean a lot of fear, a lot of fighting, a lot of shame, a lot of anger of change in church when we're in it. So I think it's kind of easier to turn our back against the church and just walk away to face it at least. So, there have been a change. There have been a change. But if that's how we get into the room within the church, it's like I'm happy to see you. I've been fine. Yeah, I think it's going to be easier because it's sort of being in a struggle not quite all the time, and this is what it's all about. You want the church to take place and you change. And the church have now decided in their way that we do the same-sex marriage. In this church, open a man and then we come back home in their being. Some priests say, I don't agree with this, and they don't have to do the ceremony. It's really an involuntary church. Even though it's kind of tough in the north, it's tough in the south, but it's a change here. And that's why it's so important that the vision will be as a service to all. Because it's a heritage. How do you see the church in a bigger picture? On the roof. On the roof? Yeah. There are still a long way to go, especially if you've got a gender identity. We still use E and She for the most. And I think we're going to need to go as men as their child. I think that the forwarder will be more interstitial than just mother and father. And we need to move as we say in the vision, and move a woman, mother, father, father, second, second order. This is not the forwarder being filled out. And we need to find that Ramadhar. I'm not going to talk about the vision. Ramadhar. I think it's heresy. Oh, heresy. Yeah. Heresy. Yes. Maybe there is two mothers and a father will be included. Are you the same as? Do you still see that people should just have their children back at us? No. It's the same but really it's emotional because I think that the church too has an important role. It's very important in the church. We do need to have some place to go when life comes. It's either in a good way or in a difficult way. And in the church the people who work there are still the many people where they are. We are alive. We are emotional. Why do you think people are doing that? Because all the men celebrate the new life. And in all ways the moment has celebrated the name of the new being. Yes. And they put the products instead of talking to the church. And all in all ways the more there are secular numbers much like that. And we see it also in that individual information of the ten years old that a lot of people are going for a job. The moment is which is secular information instead. Yeah. Okay. I think you kind of should be about to give the the rest of the time as an artist and meetings because I'm the mother there. Yes. And to the same church because I also belong here and as a need to talk we need to meet a human being in Cyprus. That's why we have this. And outside the church tomorrow we will buy some time and it will be there until the service tomorrow arrives is finished. When I make the church I have this waiting for the dawn through the afternoon. Down the island. Yeah, meeting people can not come here much. We use people in here for the service. It's visible up here. We don't deny anyone to join the church. And I do collaborate with communities and it's so important to have a place to meet. Being clear with God can be very hard. Maybe we don't have the language for who we are maybe we don't know anyone else but we make this place where we start with us before that and then we open some of that they don't need to know anyone but then they have someone to call together with the place. And I also says that we need the social part so we go without the place. But once opened people do notice people do listen to people. And they don't have experiences that make them believe. Maybe they have told things that they don't know and they don't have experiences that make them believe. Maybe they have told things that they don't believe that they just have to accept this and be a Christian in my way and maybe they can see that there are authorities. It is possible to be Christian in many different ways. Maybe they can find something to recognize really powerful. Very fascinating. I have been very very curious about our sort of ministry with the LGBTQ youth. How have you achieved that level of success? How have you young people respond to you? If you really might have such new assets they're not afraid they want to. They can be a place for whatever if they want to they take over them they can possibly whatever and never come. And they thank a lot for that very excellent service and love which also must I wouldn't talk because of the community. And unless some of them when they were only 14 years old and of course it's generated new people that say I've grown up and since I kind of succeeded in the first time I was there I don't know the recognition yet. But who do your parents respond to you for example? I've had several phone calls and he answered with me when I met them Thank you for being there as an adult you do feel safe spend your time with your daughter or whatever they label it to your arrangements Thank you for creating this community my child must not feel that alone my child don't feel that at all anywhere and more and that gives me really more motivation because I remember this feeling on the other hand anywhere it's horrible it's horrible it feels so alone so afraid depressed sad it takes so much energy to go home try to think of you to be together with and if you do fall out at your age it's so hard to get back into society to get education to get work to get family to get relations to reach out to people who must do all of them they're so important Good question My mother started to be when I was there most people have a school TV on the channel on their heads you know the old television was like you have a wolf and it's huge so I kind of sense it people do need to talk to me want to talk to me are curious about whatever it's for you today and if you want they can bring up topics talk about and if you don't want you don't dare maybe or something I can imagine young people in a small town somewhere I just don't know where they're from you know if you're in a remote village for example I believe you fall in love with us I'm really used to peoples but ever I have the opportunity to stay for some day about some inclusion and diversity I try to do it even though in Tokyo Tokyo are open and on Tuesday we do have some surrounding questions we use every opportunity to stay and still say I shouldn't you don't you can't do and if possible I need to argue with them if possible I answer them in the paper what's going to be it's about on this full page in the paper with me with this handle bring your colors on my head I'm angry against a priest who has been divorced three times right the wife says a lot of lot getting divorced but he married he does not say a lot of lot since his marriage but he was wishing against the same expression why I didn't know to me but I did want to be with this were you successful thanks I'm not your thanks thank you you're good you're good now in a very broad sense your work is sort of like a mystery how do you combine your work and your mystery with the work that's going on which is our post event this weekend I remember when I reached out to our group I said we would like to have stories and make more stories with your life to be a core a role model is amazing yes it was not necessarily expected because since the church has done so much wrong and said so many horrible judging things even though I reached out to my house be sure that the other people would say yeah we want to jump but we did and we went to a lot more arrangements and talked with the community here and we engaged in whatever catches my interest and of course making a license is not something that happens or at all you have to put energy into having it you guys what's your question it seems a bit of a bit more than going on because it's a very interesting mixture and I wonder how you succeeded to do it being honest being honest and sincere and of course try to remember and of course I'm not in a position that I can judge other people I don't know they don't know what to do so I'm just wondering yeah I'm going to have fun I'm going to have love I'm going to have nutrition and diversity I want the whole world to be as more available that's my question you were first this combination yeah yeah it's so powerful it's so powerful and the message from our pride is diversity it's love and and it's the same for me and I two possibly both together makes it even more possibly even stronger that's fantastic you're absolutely beautiful but what do you like the international community to do about Trumpson Arthur Cronin your work and their work you're always welcome in Fulsa but every time in Fulsa you are welcome you could reach me on Facebook the church is made not open during the day but there the page is coming up in faith in challenge or temple whatever the divine has created each and every one of us don't be afraid to challenge them do you think God or the divine may mistake creating me I'm sure the divine has a special way a special moment now what do you feel is the business misconception of the shirt that people tend to have that he has changed that we still the old dark times when they were very anxious and no we know that no more they have really a lot of change and please give us a chance you mentioned that I'm going to send back for a second but you mentioned Arthur Cronin he used in the Lord products some words about that last year I got this prize for being yeah an activist yeah for all my work throughout the years living inclusion of diversity bringing people together and reaching between the church and the community I was really honored and totally open relevant and surprised how long have you been and the national level thus far it is almost beautiful since 2008 when actually how how so I remember the National War this week which is say this must be this that it is and it has really been normal okay so what is the business in such a way people have about normal that I swear so I'm walking to follow the twist it's dark all the time or the women started shining all the time because about a minute I have to tell a little story yes it has some tourists okay and wanting to see the video of someone and the guy said I don't know who I am get me a video it's just the same son but it was not going through the price of the below the price stay low so they were very disappointed you can choose who is the first coming to normally to see the war but during the summer that is so many minutes so please read from the circle of the area for your tickets this this time you are really the daylight few hours of the day time yes half for one and a half week we love the horizon stay if you want to now what is the previous conception about you I am an explorer especially very very sharp people usually don't very happy to stay long in my decay so why don't you it's impossible to make a change you must stay there but at the same time I do not people I do not interact with people I am not making things together for me exactly and yeah this is my this I am so pleased that I hope it suggests you for your dream this has been absolutely wonderful I am very honored to be suggested and accepted it's my pleasure so I would like to thank you for this amazing interview from inside of my history the fireside chat at Archer Cry in Charleston thank you so much for both of these events in this church thank you so much for me this is very important to hold it here in the church does that please yes just look how do you deal with people's anger how do you deal with people's anger don't imagine I have this hook of thoughts about you for us yeah I am very conscious about where do I stop and the other are cooking and now I can still be very close to very angry people keeping my breath dark in my belly is number one stretching my back is number two and then I hear what he was saying difficult to meet I was down in the shops can you please please try again in the open box and then I will try to come up and move her back upstairs I understand a little bit who you are I'm wondering did I understand what you're saying creative it's over yes it's not right it's not so people don't stay everywhere at all if you might go to an average car if your face is open and my eyes won't junction usually the anger kind of lasts away very good very good but of course I don't have to read them I can say I hear them say and I accept that and I do expect your voice to rather appear here or experience but on the other hand my experience my belief are human but if you come up against that kind of really absolute angry person how do you stop yourself not getting angry against that reaction no it's not here I don't know how do you react strongly believe that everyone has every time is doing their best and when I do believe that everyone every time is doing their best of course maybe another time can do much better but I'm giving something inside of me that it makes you feel kind of helpless you don't get very angry you feel empowered so if I try to find the empathy it's much easier not to get driven into their emotions the same you know yeah good idea thank you another question for me I don't have a question but I have an observation if I may observation you sure so you know you say with angry people you have this forcing around you a force like yeah you know you are one of the most open people I have ever met one of the most something kind giving understanding I mean so many different words I could use to describe you kind of you understand okay you're a people manager thank you people who tend to gravitate towards you because they can see this openness and this love and it's what to make them open this love sure openness it's true it's so true I speak only the truth I'm in the hands of God and I speak only the truth why do you think we rushed so much just together we checked in the hotel and just left everything that came here okay we don't even know yes for the audience we watched this video the whole I wish you the first time that we arrived here I think it was 2018 and Marie-Mathé you made us feel so welcome so part of what was going on in a small city within the Arctic Circle and we had traveled so far to just experience this and you only enhanced our whole experience here by just being who you are a beautiful city I mean you've enhanced so much forever we are really attached of course and just each other saying hello I'm so happy to see you it was really coming from the heart we know it and we can feel it okay thank you everyone it's been a pleasure