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the floor is all yours thank you that should sound pretty good hey nice to meet you finally in person after years yeah you look pretty much the same in person thanks you do too thank you I appreciate that I hope we both look good in our camps me too how's a so how so coronavirus obviously we are we talked before the stream because we both been flying recently we are this is all CGI we're not actually next to each other that would be violating CDC protocol we've just been composited in from different sets across the state but how do you feel I think I guess more importantly about the stock market like red line go down you've seen the memes right yeah I mean that's a very broad question how do I feel about the stock market how do I feel about its impacts on everyday Americans or on well broadly cuz well cuz in the lefty sphere you know a lot of people are really happy because the 2008 financial crisis sort of precipitated a bunch of really strong anti establishment sentiment concerning you know like when the stock markets crash why does wealth get consolidated with these people and everyone else gets left you know on the street and a lot of people are excited I think for another sort of catalyzing incident you know the accelerationist fervor has been kicked back up and I assume you don't agree with that necessarily I mean it didn't accelerate us towards much in 2008 so I don't expect it'll accelerate us towards too much right now when it comes to lefties I usually don't talk much about finance of the stock market because usually they're utterly clueless regarding most of it for instance the 1.5 trillion dollar repo market thing that was going on with the Fed most just stimulus yeah money print so yeah I mean most of it those conversations are mind-numbingly stupid I mean in so far it's like the stock market crashing now I mean like the ups and downs of the stock market I don't think affects the average American that much if you're older retirement it can be scary if you are working and you're looking at your 401k it can be scary I know my parents are scared right now yeah the scary thing is going to be downstream of that like if people start laying off workers or people aren't allowed to go into work which is what's happening I think that's the scarier thing for most Americans then you know whether or not some numbers on the S&P 500 of the Dow Jones are going up and down so like I just I just got an email like an hour ago apparently like the state of Ohio is like locking down like a lot of employment or whatever and then around here in LA we were just talking about getting food and a lot of places are closed yeah yeah I don't know how long the country can survive like you know like locking off international travel this is on press I mean this is like in two weeks like this could end up being one of the most maybe the I mean this could end up being like depression era like relative I think maybe maybe that's a little bit alarmist but I think the problem is like urging close with all the shutdowns the economy stock market freezes biggest drop in the history of the yeah well biggest drop absolute numbers I wish I didn't know percentage wise I think well percentage wise so I'm pretty sure in the Great Depression I want to say I want to say 25% of the world's GDP was wiped out and I want to say that in 2007 it was like 1% so like in terms of like absolute value yeah like billions of dollars are being lost but like the whole world is far more industrialized is far more established the economies have a lot more a lot more power to them now than they used to be you know that was not the GDP of course yeah for sure yeah I know a lot of person like people personally I'm sure you do as well who are like terrified right now there's a lot of service workers are being laid off people to work at restaurants they can't come in my brother's a chef you know he's at home now like what are you gonna do and there are a lot of people I even Mitt Romney proposed this the idea of like implementing a temporary UBI yeah cash infusion yeah I for the first time I'm not a huge Yang fan I actually think that'd be a pretty decent idea here do you have any opinions I mean like the purpose of like that type of stimulus is to kind of like jump it is basically you see an economic downturn coming and you want to inject a little bit of cash into businesses or individuals to get the economy not getting quite as low I don't see a problem with that a lot of people like I mean some people most Americans can't afford like what was a $300 emergency or something like that without going into debt or something if you can't work I mean rent like for a lot of people that's like oh god next month like I'm dead if I don't come up with something you know sure to be of course there's a process to be but it's also just for people listening because a lot of people have this yeah well a lot of people this idea that like if you fall behind on your mortgage like banks want to foreclose banks don't want to foreclose on your shit landlords don't want to kick you out like typically people just want to collect their rent checks I'm gonna collect the mortgages if you do fall behind so like especially right now you're better off like calling whatever financial institution holds your note or like your landlord and be like hey like I need like to work out something whatever most people will work with you because the actual process of repossessing property or like going through evicting people huge like this is months long so the process depending on which state you live in like finding it like it's a disaster of course it all stacks up though right I mean then you have like the car payments like daycare for example yeah of course yeah it sucks yeah there's a lot of yeah oh man and actually one of the worst things that a lot of people will miss is schools closing is absolutely catastrophic because the kids are yeah yeah for a lot of people they're gonna chew on all the wires you know yeah like you don't have to watch your kid for eight hours but now you finding somebody to watch your kid is gonna be if even possible it's gonna be scarier or financially difficult and then if you were able to work but you can't find someone to watch your kid now you can't work you gotta stay home with your kid schools are trying to like go out and deliver lunches because a lot of kids for instance only get fed at school public school public lunching like helps them and I know like a lot of schools are in the process of like trying to like bust out food to some of these children like there's a lot of yeah society grinding to a halt the mortality rate for children who catch Corona is very very low we could send them out as little baby carriers doing the deliveries you know picking up supplies from the store they can fill in the gaps that the older workforce isn't capable of is that what socialism needs that's like labor are you hey listen there's child labor and then there's child work okay work we're all here yeah wait we have to get to that eventually though right child labor under socialism oh yeah absolutely that's what I'm here to propose no the the times of crisis usually sort of in sight revolutionary fervor and more so than ever I think a lot of people are really questioning whether or not the system is capable of handling itself obviously it couldn't handle Corona but more broadly if it can handle the amount of responsibility that's been placed with and I just I feel like you're not that receptive to if not socialism itself and socialist ideas that can be implemented to I love ideas I love ideas to I love policies well I got one for you I know we talked about it before it's hip and happening anymore but worker cooperatives I know I've tried to sell you on these before then a lot more research since we last talked I do hate reading of course functionally illiterate but I did my best to be clear you don't just sell me at worker co-ops I if worker cops work I love worker co-ops okay well then that's great because I know you're you have a fairly non ideological approach towards the implementation of policy if there is such a thing sure but do you not feel I mean we're on we're on a precipice of like eight catastrophes at once right now Coronas one I mean climate change is obviously the worst of them and I feel like it's at times like these we need to be considering things that are outside the realm of sort of conventional discourse nobody right now in this country is seriously talking about like challenging the wealth or the accumulation of power except for maybe Bernie Sanders and he's not going to win it seems so we kind of have to carry the torch there and if we can't do it through a presidential election then we have to find other ways and I don't know how amicable you are too because I see you criticize that for a lot online because I think it's on there yeah you can feel passionately about something but at the end of the day like we need an idea like what are you gonna do like I hear people talk about all the time I want to close the tax loopholes well what type of tax loopholes do you want to close if I buy a van for my business should not be allowed to break that off it should not be it should I not be able to carry forward losses into the next year like Amazon does like people always have all these great ideas like all we need to close the tax loopholes which ones are all we need to make it so that I don't know raise like corporate tax rates are like it's always just like very big stuff and it doesn't really target anything but nuance never carries a revolution I mean you can specify the details in Congress or whatever but if you're trying to get people active you can never say if you look through you know CD page 147 codex 74 you see specifically this needs to nobody gets energized by that it's these big passionate not necessarily illogical but these these these driven you know acts of rhetoric I think that really inspired change and that I think and one of the problems I have with you I think is your very policy focus this is called like policy wonk I think derivatively or sorry yeah what's the what's that starts with the derision yes that with some derision from the left because these are people who are very like obsessed with the intricacies of policy I think date silver gets this badge placed on him a lot but a lot of the really like in like strong positive changes have made in this country historically hasn't been built on the basis of sort of the calm proposal of specific changes to a complicated set of laws it's been about very angry people you know forcing themselves onto the system until the system buckles and eventually has to kowtow suffrage civil rights movement and if we tell these people like hey man what policies exactly are you so like and this is kind of like one of my big criticisms of democracy my problem is that like suffrage and slavery are pretty easy like problems and solutions women should probably be able to vote black people probably have all the rights afforded to them as white people when we talk about like the financial structure of the United States and like what is an appropriate form of taxation how do we do a lot these don't these are really really hard questions I'm all in favor of like riling people up and getting them because I agree because like sitting here and talking about like oh we need 4.7 trillion dollars to fund the Medicaid expansion blah blah that's really boring share I guess what I'm uncomfortable with when it comes to the left a lot is like the demonization of wealthy people and that's something that makes me a little bit uncomfortable one because it's kind of silly like if you would have robbed it with the wealth of every single billionaire in this country you fund the government for like I think a couple weeks so it's not even like they necessarily have that that wealth unilaterally to just like carry everything and then to this obsession with like hating certain groups of people in order to build a movement like I'm against that like in all areas of my life you know whether it's people that play PC games shitting on people to play PS4 games or whether it's on you know like people that you know like a certain sports and other people like sports or for politics you know whether it's like well we you know I hate billionaires you know all these billionaires need to go and it's like okay well like where does that get us at the end of the day like let's talk about the programs we went up front fun let's talk about what we have to do and then if you know if we have to like tax if I get us a billionaires to get there yeah let's do it that's great I'm okay with that yeah I want to address that but first I want to respond to me said earlier about the PC gamers to shit on sorry a policy I didn't move in on until by the way I got my recent computer who boy let me tell you an upgrade lots of nice games do maternal coming out okay wasn't paid for that but with what with regards to what you said earlier I think now sort of with the the the rose tinted goggles of history are actually painting over so many of the complexities that surrounded issues like suffrage or abolition back in those days obviously from a moral perspective like what we have today that's a fairly obvious answer you know but back then the question surrounded like well what do we do with the former slaves we still believe they're genetically inferior we just don't think they should be enslaved should there be like legal provisions made prevent them from being able to what about misogynation should we be allowing and there were a lot of and at the time very nuanced arguments going back and forth between abolitionists and non abolitionists and at the end of the day it took you know gunpowder and iron to end up resolving the difference likewise with suffrage and likewise with the civil rights movement in hindsight these feel like I suppose fairly obvious moral answers but I feel like one day maybe a thousand years in the future everything goes right we can look back in this and think like maybe a system that politically and economically privileges an incredibly smoker for people with a different set of class interest from the rest of the people wasn't the best way to ensure maximum happiness for everyone and that might be simple to them and they'll be dealing with ghost and robot sex or something that'll be there yeah and I'm not even saying that that like the concentration of wealth in the hands of the few at the expense of the many is that's not a good thing I don't I would hope that nobody agrees with it even the people that pretend to agree with that only trick themselves into thinking the lower class is doing better than maybe they actually are but like when I say that these issues are relatively simple maybe it feels like I'm painting a little bit too generously the past saying that like oh well like how do you count African slaves as voters for instance or or yeah if we think they're genetically inferior blah blah blah but like I guess it's like the difference between something like like Jim Crow you know like these are policies on the books you know written like if you go to a bank you're black you don't get a loan you know like it's very excuse upon black and white very very very obvious right whereas like if we were to talk about like systemic or structural racism I think we can all agree racism equal bad but like a dressing that is like so much more multifaceted then you know like looking at actual laws written on the books and getting rid of them that's all I'm saying I guess it reminds me of policing like how judges act like discriminant sentence well but it's incredibly no no I completely agree like that you know that's what the Republican types will always say you know find me a racist law in the books well if only or so easy yeah of course yeah and then like I guess it reminds me a lot of like Brexit for instance like should the UK leave the European Union that's a pretty easy yes or no but what does that actually look like and people found well holy shit that's actually way more complicated than I thought it was going to be yeah there's so much more going on and then Cameron and everybody was like bounced out of there like all right good luck figured out yeah I just it feels like because things are so globalized today because things are so interconnected today I think especially in the United States something that a lot of younger people me included don't realize is politics in the US used to be incredibly localized like the political things that you cared about was your union your parish and your neighborhood and like your city and that was like your political focus and these days everything is ultra fucking globalized you feel very disconnected from everything that's going on you know like your one vote in a bucket of 300 million or whatever I don't know what the voting population is yeah like so much has changed that it feels like there are certain problems that are gonna be very very hard to deal with with our current system leaning towards confederation 50 separate states you know Duke it out anytime there were border disputes sure well I mean I'm not I'm not gonna say that like that I love local politics don't get me wrong you know Seattle got a pretty vibrant local political scene they've recently resisted like Amazon's incursion into the city which you know obviously technicalities aside we're very happy about and I think that from an you know an alienation level people tend to be happier when they can directly relate to the effects of policy yeah you show up at a town hall meeting you're talking about stuff like your neighborhood and there's your officials that are writing and voting in the legislation feels a lot better than just watching it on CSN CNN or Fox you can throw a shoe with them you might get a night in the slammer you know try to show through the president it's much harder I just and I respect the nuance of many of these discussions I try when because you know I an audience now too and I try to be responsible I think because I do agree sometimes the revolutionary fervor moves in a direction that I don't think is sustainable like like for example you said like hating billionaires and stuff now I'll be candid with my personal beliefs I do generally believe that most of the extremely wealthy people in this country and most of the higher-level politicians are disgusting sociopaths I do I do believe that but I do agree with you in that the the formation of political movements on spite is incredibly destructive this is one of the one of the reasons why there have been so many co-opted left-leaning revolutions over the past century that ended up turning into I mean got you know like a kill a third of the population everyone glasses you know with with pull pot for example now that's not exactly an enviable or replicable example but I do think that turning spite into a political force is dangerous but at the same time what do you do if the politics of a system are so entrenched that it is not possible to move within that system through sort of the grounds of civil policy discussion and address it certainly not in time I mean we were up against the wall with climate change a while ago and what's been done to challenge the power that coal and oil lobbies have over government I mean very so citizens united it's gotten worse if anything I don't know if I my views on this have changed so much over time I don't know if I buy when it comes to climate change I don't know if people are actually really ready to do something about it because like I don't know if the solution to climate change is legislation in Congress so much is like all of us have to collectively come together and start to make sacrifices to do it and I don't know if the average person is on board with that this might be something where we split this is an argument I get into with a lot of people that say like well co-ops would help climate change because like the oil workers but like I don't know if that's actually true you know if there are people that enjoy working like the problem with climate change is twofold one is that the damaging effects happen over a long period of time which intrinsically we're not wired to deal with very well we have to learn how to deal with delayed gratification that's one and then two the effects of climate change aren't localized so I can drive my car around a poll I want but it's not like those fumes are in my house at the end of the night you know like more or less the air here you know doesn't smell like horribly smoggy and polluted maybe somebody from like New Zealand or somebody will contest that like I don't think it like smells like I'm in a garage or whatever and and neither of these two things are those two huge drawbacks really hamper our ability to do anything about climate change I don't think socialists could deal with it any better than capitalist could any better than a green movement could like it's just really hard to get people like really riled up until you literally have like countries you know on fire and falling apart and even then I mean Australia still the prime minister wasn't willing to you know we get forced fires all the time brush fire sorry yeah yeah yeah the rush hell state by the way or a hell country Australia 98 degrees just year-round perpetually I can't imagine living over there right now my god that these people contend with their politicians this is a miracle to me I worry though that you're naturalizing how slovenly how how disinterested the population is it's been the argument of people like academics like numchomsky you know I know I bring him up a lot but in his work you know manufacturing consent it's this big like sort of thesis on the many ways in which the power structures in our society move people's opinions within like sort of like like like herding cattle into an acceptable range and I do feel as though the alienation people experience or the distance people feel from their voting consequences I know you've complained about that before people just cast a vote and they don't even think especially with foreign policy or environmental issues I think that many of these sort of negative components to our democracy are a product of deliberate or if not deliberate at the very least manufactured efforts on the part of people who control our society the news has always been biased I don't think it's ever been this bad for example the the extent to which our opinions can be molded I now with like ads that track everything you look online and they can specifically move you into certain demographics to maximize how much they can sell to you it worries me because democracy functions fundamentally in the assumption that people are generally speaking aware of what's going on yeah but capitalism in some ways I think that can be addressed not all of them but in some ways pollutes that flow of information for a profit vote of sometimes maliciously like when the oil companies will like lie about the this bill or this impact and sometimes just as a natural consequence of the way information and media moves so we can talk for hours about I guess like the extent to which media influences people versus people influence media to back to bring it back to like an effective political area one thing that I would like to see like I'll say the progressive movement in the United States do out so this isn't like the revolutionaries but like the people that are still pretty far left the two things that I would like to see is one pick like a couple issues and like go hard on that I feel like having somebody like Bernie Sanders who wants to do nationwide right control Medicare for all Green New Deal federal jobs guarantee like when you're trying to do every single thing I feel like maybe what would be better I'm going to say this horrible horrible word compromise like a couple of things and then just like your stake in the ground is like Medicare for all that's a deal break this has to be it that's it this is the one thing that we're pushing hard on everything else you want to keep guns okay fine whatever you know you want to keep Hispanic people from immigrant here okay fine whatever but Medicare for all that's the thing we're going to do god damn it that one thing I'll give them guns sure focusing in on like one or two strong political positions and like really driving that I feel like would be more successful in the overall revolutionary approach and then two the fervor and the and the rabid support for people like Bernie Sanders I think is awesome that's great Bernie whether Bernie wins or loses his fan base is absolutely loyal ride or die which is good which is that's an incredibly positive thing but like focusing that energy into positivity or at least directing the negativity away from people that are kind of your allies I think is the second thing I would like to see like if you're a huge Bernie Sanders supporter that's awesome and if you take all that fucking hatred you have for Bernie not making it in all the establishment of law and you turn on the republicans that's great but when we start saying this like Pelosi or Pete Buttigieg are fascists or that Obama was like a neoliberal fascist shillard ever it's like damn well now like the political effectiveness of your movement is completely evaporated into nothing like whatever you wanted to do or achieve is gone because Bernie Sanders was gone and you know maybe you shift Biden to the left a little bit in a few things I don't even know how much is attributed to Bernie there versus just like the general democratic sentiment it's impossible to know yeah those those would be the two things so like staking out like one or two big policy points you want to do and then like at least directing your vitriol away from people that are your allies I mean that's the issue though you've heard I assume lefties say that democrats are controlled opposition everyone is controlled opposition depending on who you are of course you know yeah how high up the strings go you know you've got the Jews and then you've Kellogg's cereal controlling the real um I've heard people I've heard republicans say even bench or not republicans but like alt writers will say like bench pure as controlled opposition or certain people are controlled yeah Ben and Netanyahu are together yeah yeah yeah yeah everyone is controlled opposition they don't represent everything perfectly yeah controlled opposition is a conspiratorial term I don't generally like using it but there's a sentiment behind it that I can get behind and the concern and this is historically verifiable is that what we need is serious change we there are people in this country I think are suffering past an acceptable extent there will never be perfect equality or perfect economic justice but at this time such an egregious amount of wealth is diverted I mean god you know the Panama Papers nothing even came of that but we I mean we know the system fundamentally is broken healthcare education failing politicians not really the bills that get passed don't tend to represent the popularity of those bills with the average person but the wealthy people they get a pretty consistent you know positive curve there are so many problems and all of the progressives in this country to lefties you know we get really fired up we get really revolutionary and then somebody like Barack Obama comes around and he masquerades as a progressive and then he gets eight years three million undocumented immigrants get deported concentration camps in the south border are built and we get from this what a water down heritage foundation plan and admittedly a good thing the iranian deal we got the a c and the iranian deal supreme court at least not the last one but some supreme court right of course yeah I mean like and again like it sucks but this goes on forever this sine wave so this is the eternal crux the eternal pain and paradox of the progressive their progressive will just doesn't seem to understand the problem is is that um progressives don't understand if you ask a progressive how they feel about things like where is america at on like medicare for all or the green new deal though what they'll tell you is like I'd say like 80 percent of americans are for it it's just the corporations and the politicians in your way that's not true there's a lot of work that has like when you talk about obama got in and he couldn't get anything done technically that's a good thing that's democracy in action obama didn't have the senate he didn't have congress for six years because he wasn't popular enough that was the will of the american people speaking now we can talk to some extent you know things like gerrymandering there are different types of voter suppression that happen that are definitely bad but there is a sizable chunk of american people that just didn't want to see obama do is that this is the contention or the contradiction i suppose because you have serious issues with how democracy functions but then i say we need to make serious change and you point out well hey democracy says we can't move forward we have to keep things the way they are well okay well there are two separate arguments i'm not a fan of democracy because of look at where the fuck we are now but um you if you want to make change i think that you have to do it within the system that exists now um like you could go for a revolution but no one knows what that looks like right now life is life is decent for most people like that's very relative a lot of people feel a severe amount of economic anxiety right now sure and and i agree i mean of course everything is relativistic yeah but at the same time and and it's difficult to make assessments like how much how much are you maximizing well-being compared to the total potential limit of your society and i'm not even going through some weird detail turning calculus but like if you read um i can't even remember any like the english books we read after they're great to pressure and ever like we didn't hit that after 2007 like it didn't sink to that level where people are like killing themselves over like a slice of bread underneath some train tracks that's a low bar to set of course it is i'm just saying that like it's important to recognize that we have made some progress that things that obama did were were transcendent the idea that america had any type of health care anything past was unbelievable the asia sucks compared to what it could have been but it was it was a massively forward compared to where we were and the iranian deal could have sent a new benchmark in terms of american foreign policy like an approach to the middle east that doesn't involve us like fighting with all the shape people like that would have been amazing that would have been so cool to see that type of relationship with iran a country that for good reason has very uh type of relationship with the united states i won't criticize the iranian deal i mean it's again it's you know it's funny the one thing that he did that i am unequivocally you know proud of happy for um is the thing that didn't interrupt any of the class interests the people who you know the most prominent in this country everyone wants peace with iran unless you're an idiot you know um but i'm very pro-democracy i love democracy i advocate for democracy in the workplace i mean i wanted everywhere you know spray my spray painting my house democracy but the issue is i don't think democracy is really a measurement of what the people want what the people want is ephemeral and changes depending on the influences they're subjected to back in the days of the civil rights movement most people had a very unfavorable opinion of dr martin luther king jr back in the days of abolition most americans i mean uh uh lincoln had the like shanghai like american support into um into engaging in the war you know and it was only sort of because of a legal technicality that they were even able to muster the the the the the force is necessary to really bring abolition about and when we when we see all of this at the time at those times all of the good things that happened would have been considered i think by people in positions such as yours very progressive minded people who are concerned about adhering to sort of the acceptable limits of political movement um to be impossible or at the very least inadvisable sure so and the past i just want to yeah include the past century ever since the great depression and the the new deal has been a slow process of erosion of not for all of course gay rights great fantastic we move forward in some respects but in a lot of ways particularly economic we have made little or negative progress with rights and and and you know unions being eroded regulations being rolled back tax brackets being flattened and um in in some ways things have arguably gotten worse i mean there are people who have made the argument for example that post jim crow the effects of the um the war on drugs have actually had a proportionately greater negative impact on the black community than or you look at the 2007 the amount of wealth that was wiped out that largely was restored to a lot of families didn't get restored with a lot of african-american you know sure and and when you when you look at this like god you know the the we get minor benefits and then they get rolled back and minor benefits are rolled back and everything we do in this country every good thing eventually gets kicked back by corporate power or the people who represent it and at some point you have to think like maybe we get rid of the antagonist you know maybe we work a little bit outside the system gainfully hopefully or we incite people to do so in the hopes that this cycle this perpetual cycle of of misery can be overturned and we can actually make real progress and then we see where the policies lie yeah i guess so like to be clear um when i'm when i'm critical of some people i i'm just i'm critical of people thinking that there is a one way approach to figuring out every problem but rather like i would look at like politics isn't like you know hammer versus hammer and then who can hit the hardest as the winner rather like the political landscape has room for all sorts of different type of actors um types of actors like for instance you know you had your Martin Luther King's and you had your Malcolm X's you know and i think that both of these types of figures like played probably important roles in actually getting what they wanted done and i think it's important to recognize that it's really good to have like our Bernie Sanders Bernie Sanders is our multiple Bernie Sanders and our Bernie Sanders yeah and our alexandria acasio-quartez and our ilanomars and all of these very very progressive people that's awesome and having them there on the side you know being activists more than politicians pushing people in a certain direction that's fine but at the end of the day as much as it pains me to say it people like the Pelosi's and the Hillary Clinton's and the obamas these are the people that are pushing through some of that change like these activists on the side and i say on the side i don't mean that in a negative way have a very real goal which is to like shape and shift the the american population's opinion regarding certain i wouldn't say policy certain ideas but at the end of the day you need a politically effective machine that can start moving those ideas through office and i think that it's important to recognize that there is a value in both of those things too quickly it seems like people are very quick on the on both sides really on the activist side to say i hate politicians you know if obama was a man he would have just executive action every fucking possible piece of legislation and abolish congress and blah blah blah yeah i mean like you have those people and then you also have the people that are like you know hey bernie sanders is a worthless fuck all of these progressives need to just go away you guys need to get out of here i hate all of you blah blah blah without recognizing that well it's probably a reason why people like even Hillary Clinton supported a 15 an hour minimum wage nationally speaking and it probably had a little bit to do with bernie sanders and the fervor that his women started i think that there can be value founded in multiple different types of actors so whether it's like as much as i hate him whether it's like the kyle kolinsky's or the sands online that are drumming up you know support in the base or whether it's people like Pelosi that are running around congress whipping votes i think that all of these people working together to like effect change is a better idea than waiting for the revolution no this i agree with i can absolutely get behind this because of course back in the back of the turn of the century you know during the gilded age a lot of the labor movements that we saw ended up you know we get the 40-hour work week and the weekends and no child labor and a lot of this was pushed for by people who i suppose would have been me a hundred years ago you know but the actual changes were hammered out you know across the t's dot the is by politicians and by the people who try to channel that energy into the political space and i agree there's a need for these two things i don't think we should have like a revolution every time like a fishing trade deal needs to be renegotiated with with mexico you know in the gulf i think it's very very important to recognize that sometimes there have to be uh capitulations made the question is what do you do if they're not coming fast enough like if you think of it as a stopgap maybe we people like me or hasan are engines to build energy and we we try to get people as excited as possible and we get them to write letters and pressure people and say mean things on twitter which is of course as cathartic as it is effective and um and uh and then we look at our elected officials we check like hey how's the pressure working and just recently i think within the past 24 hours nancy pelosi shot down uh sort of back room deals that were taking place concerning a stimulus bill for like the average worker um uh barack obama uh didn't push back in the republicans like anywhere near hard enough he allowed that senate seat or not senate sorry supreme court seat to go to um to a republican pick because he wasn't willing to fight the fight well i didn't do anything well i i have i have had uh talks i have looked at things it seems like there were legal precedents for doing something if the senate refuses to do its job but we get we get an eight year progressive presidency change and we get two policies from it one of which is now woefully inadequate i think most people agree the aca was a compromise even at the best of days yeah of course yeah and the oranian deal has been overturned but that's not barack obama's fault um or maybe it is dakka the thing the thing is is that obama it's funny because people always like we need a stronger precedent you just get out and do these things and to some extent obama did that's where we got dakka from congress couldn't move on it well now i'm gonna do it the executive action but now we see the problem with stuff like that is well as soon as the next guy comes in now it's gone by executive action right but but exactly all the changes are temporal that's why i always told the people who listen to me you know bernie sanders gets an office do you think that fixes anything the fight i mean that's where the real frustration is beginning there yeah exactly like if you think it was fun like listening to him the epically own people on twitter god imagine him like arguing to get like bills passed through through mcconnell it'd be it's nightmarish you know well yeah and the democrats wouldn't even have the senate so that would be a monumental i mean there are ways to do it but the political pressure required for that because you it's like you're always fighting like you sword and shield like you're fighting battles you know on your more extreme ends to get legislation passed but you also have to protect your moderate districts with that that was the blue wave you know was getting all of those moderates out to vote and flip those districts blue and we are and and there's this is interminable there's no way through this not through the system as it exists now but there was an outside pressure that is affecting all of this and it disproportionately negatively affects us the pressure of capital and that is to say more broadly if i may that if we look generally speaking who passes legislation that favors business interests trump with his tax cuts who maneuvers the political discourse in this country in such a way as to be favorable to those who already have power this is obviously more of a republican thing but even the democrats kowtow to a lot of these policies and this is an outside pressure that makes it very difficult even for us to work within these the the civil means of democratic legislator i dream of a world where i can have arguments with policy wonks over the nuances of some stimulus bill or whatever but i'm doing so in a world where there's not an incredibly powerful collective entity weighing their thumb on the scale more heavily than the collective you know voter population yeah this is i guess just this brings us back to a fundamental disagreement i think that your your economic system is a vehicle for whatever your particular population believes i think that a socialist system could be just as a racist and corrupt as a capitalist system i mean like if we go back and we look at this country in the you know in the forties fifties sixties seventies you know but through through the jim crow era you know there were times where the only reason black people could even get into certain neighborhoods is because a real estate broker like saw an opportunity to like break a block to do like blockbusting where they would they would go in and they would find you know a white family and offer twice as much money for their house to get him to move out because otherwise white people wouldn't sell to black people ever this is like the only way that black people could actually start to get some forms of real estate and you look at some of the ways that unions worked in the jim crow era even when federally we start to legislate like hey guys no more discrimination a lot of these unions fought tooth and nail to hold on to the the structures that they had set up like i know i'm more familiar with boston than anything else or not boston sorry baltimore with anything else but um in in baltimore a lot of these unions had like all of these seniority systems where even when federally we got rid of a lot of the a lot of the types of discrimination that existed because of the way the seniority system was set up um there was no way that black people were ever going to get into any of these other jobs because white people held them for longer and as soon as black people started to protest to get into a lot of these people in the unions just went on strike um and i mean i i see and these were like strong unions at the time like united auto workers like steel workers these were really powerful unions um the idea that just like collectivizing and hoping that fixes racism or any of these structural systemic problems i i mean i've seen it happen in yeah go ahead i just want to say i'm not a or wait we're like i've seen it happen in these more socialized systems i just don't believe it's going to magically disappear if you change your your system of economics yeah i'm not a class reductionist i don't believe that socialism can fix all of our social woes racism for example there are a lot of people who claim for example that the soviet union like abolished racism or whatever um when in fact though they were better in black white relations than the united states was that's because they didn't have a black white issue in the us they had like seven black people right they had their own they had their own racial groups that they were also yeah we just call them all white people but but to them it was very serious to them yeah yeah um uh so so i'm not under the impression that though i guess the ussr did make advances with women that were pretty serious but you know whatever um the point that i'm making though is that i don't believe that that ultimately all economic systems are an equal representation of the will of the people so to speak i mean we know for example that uh when it comes to maximizing like you know utility and human happiness feudalism is an infinitely worse system than like a capitalist democracy like a liberal you know um the systems the systems we have today because back then they had no means to which to express their will and it was just the powerful keeping their boot on them and blah blah and obviously things are better today but one of the reasons that things were able to get better was because with the advent of public education and a shift in the public discourse people began to think of themselves in different ways such as to build a civil society back in the days of feudalism um i'm sure every serf hated their lord to some extent or maybe not but i imagine it was pretty widespread but in terms of the collective language and understanding you know human egalitarianism with a representative democracy this language didn't exist to them they literally were philosophically not relevant at the time and today i think we see a similar problem where we have the outcomes of of alienation and of the distancing between the um the the the process of like electing a representative and how that process is actually delegated and who is sort of supporting campaigns behind the scenes that it's difficult for people to genuinely actually act in their class interest this is what um what's it called i'm sure you know the term as well as i do class something class i'm pushing for it class uh class consciousness okay right that's what class consciousness is all about it's the belief that through the system as it exists people's actual not will because that's a weird the will of the people as a fascist sort of sentiment but the interests of the people are being suppressed i don't believe every problem can be fixed i do believe through socialism i do believe many problems stem through an unhealthy relationship between the capital owners and the politicians in this country and that there is no way to split them up without severe action being taken they're behind many bad things that have taken place we don't need to get into specifics i suppose um over the past century both domestically and foreign and i don't know i just we're never gonna legislate these people out we're like ticking down when it comes to certain catastrophes i don't know if we can wait around until uh you know miami is up ankle deep like oh hey maybe we should stop letting oil companies you know roll hundreds of millions of positive coverage for the candidates who will pass bills in their favor i don't think we have that kind of time i think the urgency is needed and if the people who are pushing through the bills Pelosi Obama whatever Pete Buttigieg um are stopgapping too hard if they're not letting change happen at an acceptable pace i think it's the obligation of people like me to say we have to circumvent we have to move around this wall i guess i just don't know if i believe sorry that was a lot i apologize yeah i don't know if i believe that the the interests of billionaires is so fundamentally different than the interests of working-class people when it comes to things like tax policy sure but when it comes to things like global warming i don't think a lot of billionaires are legitimately thinking like well if half the planet floods i'll probably just go move somewhere and be chill i'm pretty sure most people are opposed to these types of like what if we focus specifically on climate change like even exxon mobile i think for the past decade has had a neutral stance on climate change where they got rid of their oh well it probably doesn't happen um the problem is that people have vested interests in the areas that they're a part of and they'll represent those interests so if you have a lot of money that's tied up in fossil fuels you're more likely to represent fossil fuels but like that's as true for the business owner it seems almost as much as the workers themselves like how many like just here in la for people that live here that we i think we're ready to flip the switch on the cheapest solar farm in the world and we can't do it because the fossil fuel unions here are protesting because they don't want to lose their jobs like i'm just not sure if i totally buy into this idea that flipping the switch to another economic system would would even would even start to address any of these problems you know we talk about like alienation from labor and whatnot or alienation from alienation from society in general you know i mean a lot of this can go back to the impacts of technology or industrialization on people the idea that we drive 20 minutes to go to a job rather than having things more like locally set up you could plan cities in entirely different ways but we but we don't because we travel so far to work the impacts of the internet social media and everything on children going through school has had i'm pretty sure it's like universally seen as a horrendous negative that kids are on facebook and everything um the the lack of localization and politics the fact that nobody cares anymore and they just watch the national news and they're not invested in our local scene i don't know how many of these things necessarily just go away because we change like the the particular type of economic organization we have maybe it can start to address some things but i think that you have more or less all the same problems and you'd still have to find other tools to deal with it you know when we spoke about like lobbying last time for instance should lobbying be made illegal well nobody thinks lobbying should be illegal every company should have a chance to make its case to a legislative body or to the public but but you know i wouldn't expect a coalition of workers that represents you know fossil fuels to be any more honest about their jobs than a capital owner for fossil fuels just because that's where their interests lie like i think you need another tool like in both socialism or capitalism you would need some sort of like third party body third party body that arbitrates these types of things it looks at the situation and determines you know what's better for public interest so before i address that because i absolutely do believe that a change in the the means of production would lead to a change in how the relationship between the worker and the business not broadly speaking you know the power structures i do want to say then if your contention isn't specifically with the means of production then and more broadly with the way in which these powers are abused do you have any solution to the rampant abuses of power and general harm that's being caused by by essentially by corporations that politicians have a financial interest not to address even if we leave aside socialism there's no denying from the opioid crisis which is killing tens of thousands and putting hundreds of thousands in hospital beds because they just lied about how addictive the products is it's sort of a dark mirror of the tobacco industry you know 50 years ago to god auto industry's lobbying to prevent cities from implementing public transport uh to just everything that happens here almost every bad thing in this country has some sort of financial interest pressing on it what do you suggest be done about that especially we're just we're running out of time yeah well i mean it's funny that you bring up because like taxi drivers that are unionized also like champion against no i know i know i'm not coming in as well so i mean like both sides do it like it just depends on like what this particular issue looks like in terms of what can be done um i firmly believe as much as some people who are saying it we at a surface level at the very least we definitely live in a democracy if we wanted to tomorrow we could vote at every single congressperson nothing can stop you there's gerry mandrick whatever if we really wanted to do it we could do it so there's so we have to ask a little bit of a deeper question well why do people vote you know as you would say against their class consciousness or against their class interests like why are they not able to vote in line with that um i think that the two major issues these are one of the same that i have a problem with is one is media and then two is like technology united with media so for the first thing for media i don't think it's good that like our our mainstream media stations are relatively partisan i don't know if it's good that like if you're a left person you can turn on cnn if you're a right person you turn on fox news that type of divide just increases partisanship and probably drives people away from figuring out what's actually happening because you're more likely to listen to your version of the alternative facts i think that's a huge problem and then and then a second huge problem is with the advent of alternative media um the unionization of the profit motive with um technology has created something wholly evil on the internet um you talked about it earlier the idea that i can hone in i can craft this perfect profile of you to figure out what types of videos you want to watch and i can send you down the deepest darkest rabbit hole i can so that you're watching fucking 50 million videos i hope you're like alex jones yeah yeah if i watch oh click the desi video where he mentions ben Shapiro well here's joe rogan here's jordan peterson here's alex jones here's ben Shapiro like every you know right leaning and then all right leaning eventually person yeah i think that those two things are huge problems that need to be addressed i think that there has to be some form of government intervention when it comes to informing the the public of what's going on i don't think that what we have right now works whatever i would suggest as an alternative to it would be something that would make me uncomfortable because it would require a dramatic intervention of government into the that industry which leaves itself susceptible to all the problems of government for instance donald trump being president but i would be willing to take that over what exists now which i think is leading us down a pathway to destruction i think i i mean i certainly agree that these are serious problems that need to be addressed i just wonder if we're pulling back the the focus a little bit too far when it comes to for example the way media influences people you know partisanship and what have you i like partisanship personally as a more radical leaning person i love the fact that people these days are so radically divided that we don't even see the same world and the reason for that is because i think that the the lines are being drawn a little bit more clearly now that things are more partisan it's more easy to see or what the beliefs of people who are just cucks to the establishment really are if you take your average trump supporter for example and pardon me for being partisan you know but these people are insane in my personal humble opinion and much of that insanity comes from them replicating rhetoric that has been digested and fed to them by like you said fox news for example fox news just obliterates people you know from the from the jaw up uh if you watch it too much it's the boomer side really and um and when we look at people who have been subjected to that degree of sort of media um uh brainwashing just says yeah brainwashing whatever term you want it's very loaded but we're all subject to brainwashing you know anyone who watches me will have a certain opinion you certainly that's just how we work um of my community spawn from yours god knows there's been influences with regard to that that's just how human beings get their information and try to parse it but if you look at the kinds of things people who succumb to that process believe um to varying extents these i think extend beyond the reach of partisan media i think this extends well well well beyond that point um i think it extends to a point now where i mean i think the easiest example of this is the fact that even comparatively left leaning news channels like msnbc and cnn have in some i suppose this is maybe contentious to you but i would say that their reporters have demonstrated in some instances a clear bias against bernie sanders and some of his ideas i'm not claiming that makes the election results illegitimate but it means that even within the purview of left-leaning you know commercial you really think comparing bernie sanders to a nazi invasion there's evidence of bias in some people in there listen hey i'll all i'm saying is uh we're keeping central park fired up okay in case he decides to come out of retirement um in my craft um but it's difficult because even in these spaces there's no room for this discourse the the overtone window is kept relatively contained when it comes to certain economic issues on social issues you know on fox news you can call like mexican subhuman get a you know a deal for it and on msnbc you can talk about how body language indicates that bernie sanders has harbored misogynistic thoughts towards elizabeth warren but when it comes to economic discourse very narrow range very very narrow taxes maybe a bit higher or maybe a bit lower you know or maybe a lot lower you know um when it comes to uh dealing with um like welfare or social programs uh maybe maybe we can slightly increase the range of people affected by this or maybe we can defund all of it maybe we can just kill everyone who knows broad range of discourse maybe on the far right side when it comes to that kind of stuff because it's in their interest i don't see that being broken by anything other than substantive change i i know i keep i keep saying this rather urgently like time we're like running out and i say that i think because these are problems that have been addressed before um the while we don't have socialism in this country you know there have been socialists in it for a long time and the way in which the the propagation of business interest influences people's opinions and makes them act out of their class interest is a subject that's been studied addressed confronted and overcome in battles in the past you mention unions and it's true unions act in their own interest and nobody else's um back in yadais you know one of the most effective tactics to make unions ineffective around the turn of the century was to propagate racist propaganda which sometimes union sorry uh uh corporations would do in tandem with city leaders because the unions wouldn't take black folk and if there are black workers that are given business they're not part of the union they're not going to strike along with them meaning you get free scab workers and all of this was deliberately orchestrated the dissemination of ideas antithetical to their class interest concentrated at a very uppermost bracket of capital and it was addressed and we dealt with it kind of and it feels like now we have no choice like this is it this is the problem we've been facing for the entire duration of this country people make money off of human suffering it's just sometimes the profit motive is good sometimes it's bad and we have to address this but we can't do it as long as we're speaking within the very narrow range of economic discourse of mainstream media um i mean i think every country probably deals with a relatively narrow range like i don't think that you go to even a european country like well should we all be libertarians or should we all be communists like everybody has like their own particular range like now in europe the economic policy is obviously considerably to the left in at least in scandinavian countries compared to the united states but i mean i think it's reasonable that like because of the way that our government is structured you can't pass radical change just doesn't happen right the structure of the government doesn't allow for that to happen um going back to the i'm sorry one of the first things you brought up um something that i actually fundamentally disagree with i don't actually think there's that much difference between like if anything between like a trump supporter and a bernie sanders supporter i think that on a fundamental level i think that most people are about the same i think that people in general want to hang out and spend time with their family they want to feel like they have the tools available to them to with dignity like take care of their lives i think that most people feel like they want to be able to work a decent job work hard but make enough money so that they can have a house and their kids to school and do okay and then they want to have like fun on the weekends i think that's like 99 percent they want to be healthy they want to be happy they want to be able to have fun i'm gonna drive a car watch movies i think that this is it like explains like most people like 99 percent the fundamental drives between most people is the same now how that ends up playing out i mean depends on the intersection of so many different things it could be your faith your your religion your geographical area the history that you might have with certain politicians based on where you're at i mean where your political interests ultimately align is a very complicated question but i i do disagree with that idea that fundamentally a trump voter is like a different type of person than like a bernie sanders supporter and if anything i think it's it's kind of ironic is that some of this bend towards this i was gonna say alternative right not like alt-right but like whatever you would call trump because he's not really a neocon he's not a neoconservative like a populist yeah this populist bend has shown us that actually kind of is some similarity between people on the right and people on the left this is this is something that i see a lot of left-leaning people make a mistake when you have a debate with charlie kirke and you attack him and you're like you just want to make it so it's easy for corporations to run america a lot of these newer conservatives are like no fuck corporations i don't want them to be able to run america we should tax the fuck out of him a lot of these people on the right or trump who is like you know what i want to tariff people i want more protectionism i want to protect america businesses these are things that are very anti establishment republican very anti big business a lot of businesses are hurt by those tariffs a lot of businesses are hurt by strict immigration and i think represent kind of maybe i don't want to say like a wake-up call but maybe this idea like well hold on maybe there is some similarity between what people are reaching for you know people on the left are quick to to point out what billionaires are the reason for all of my problems because they're holding all the money people on the right are quick to point out well you know brown people coming in and taking my job so that i can't work a decent job and and take care of my family these guys are ruining my life i think at the end of the day most people want the same thing they just get there in very very different ways which is where my criticism of the media comes in and the the hyper partisanship um creates these partisan divides where there aren't any like everybody in america agrees on health care everybody in the united states thinks that everybody else should be happy and healthy we just dramatically disagree on how to get there republicans think that any individual has the ability to afford it if they really try people on the left think well no a lot of people don't have access to it but the fundamental drive for everybody to have health care i think most people agree with that say for you know some very sociopathic people but it's the hyper partisanship of the media that sold you like different sports teams is driving this artificial wedge between people making them think they disagree on fundamental issues but i don't really think they do i completely agree i believe the media is um is is unnecessarily driving a wedge and people who fundamentally would agree on the same issues i just don't think there's a way to remove that wedge or that pressure without addressing the fact that media is ultimately beholden to corporate interest like i think what you said actually speaks almost to my point you talk about how bernie sanders supporters and trump supporters won't basically the same things and we could i mean i suppose if we wanted to get an arco syndicalist on it we could talk about how if you asked a person back in 1880 what they would have wanted they would have said you know after after my 12-hour shift six days a week i just want to spend time with my kids our expectation for what a good life is is always going to be subject to the relativeistic force of the time yeah of course we're not exactly at a post scarcity world yet so you know i'll maybe you know i'll keep the champagne bottles in the cellar um but the point i want to get at is i i agree fundamentally people want the same thing it's just the degree to which you've achieved class consciousness i would argue it's a highly ideologically loaded term but when you take a look at for example and i know you disagree with bernie on some policies for example um a rent control i know i disagree with him on that there are a few other things not off the top of my head right now but broadly speaking i'm sure you could agree with me that when it comes to trying to propose solutions to generally increase the quality of life for most people bernie sanders supporters are quite a bit more in the market trump supporters i mean trump supporters are but that's you don't think it's not the case it it seems like really you don't think so when it comes to the practical consequences of who they support not just what they say they would want so i genuinely believe that trump supporters would look at a a medicare for all plan and say that it's evil what they say what happened is the government would if you buy into their reality they say the government's going to come in and it's going to tell your 64 year old grandma she doesn't need that medication anymore because now we've got to ration it out like all the long lines in in sweden in canada and the united kingdom tell us you know she's not going to get health care anymore you want your grandma being killed by the government because they've decided that she's not entitled to health care um you want you see how horrible the va is ran you want everybody lining up on the street they can't go to the hospital well you know you want to destroy the united states place in the world is having some of the best health care where people fly in like i genuinely believe that they think that that type of government intervention would be like a really negative thing and if you look at historically american politics both on the left and right it in the past americans were much more driven for towards this idea that government exists it's an american idea government exists to give us the tools to take care of ourselves that's all it's for we don't need the government to take care of us that's what our churches are for that's what our unions are for that's what our local communities are for we don't need the government to step in and do this and i think that there's like that undercurrent still exists especially in rural america today where you know they don't live in the massive city with the billions of dollars of skyscrapers and all the businesses you know they have their small community and they just want the government to give them the tools to take care of themselves um now obviously to be clear on an empirical level that's beyond fucking stupid um any any proposal of health care made by republicans is is insanely laughable borderline fucking insane but i do think that the individual supporters themselves genuinely do believe that they're pushing in the right direction but that but that's the thing though i completely agree and through you know the the the guys of corporate media they are moving in the opposite direction to where they need to go i i do believe but i don't believe i'm not one of those people who believes that all trump supporters are bad people i think that's a very moralistic way of looking at how people develop their earlier kind of sound like you said that so i think they do i think they do bad things sure and i think i suppose that would make them bad at a purely utilitarian sense but at a core i do genuinely believe most people want things to be taken care of now if you look maybe at their their views on say for example immigrants or trans people then i think maybe we get some actual like you know bad tendencies but when we're talking strictly on economics you know i'm much more concerned with what it takes to incentivize people to make decisions that are in their best interest because right now we're just not cutting it half the country doesn't even think climate change is real they went along with trump thinking that coronavirus was a democratic hoax until he had to declare it a national emergency and basically everything the republicans have done at national government levels has been downright sociopathic for the past 20 years ever since i mean before bush too but i think i think it's gotten worse maybe i don't know i'm only so young hardship is gonna work for sure yeah and the degree to which i suppose they feel comfortable doing things that are clearly against the common interest of americans the republican party what they passed through mitch mcconnell leaving hundreds of congressional bills just sitting on his desk i mean this is an excusable behavior but they'll defend it till they're dying days because it's part of this broader populist movement you know owning the lips but i think i think that is manufactured and what's more i feel as though it's our responsibility as people who i would like to believe we have better ideas than most republicans when it comes to how to make the country a better place i think it's our responsibility to take on the systems that are keeping our democracy from genuinely representing what the will of the people again i hate that term it's so inherently fascistic but what the interests of the people um should be and when i say should be i don't mean in broad ideological sense i just mean if you want health care if you want va benefits this is a generally good direction this is lunacy yeah so i guess like what where do you go then from here because my problem is that and i'm not saying you do this because i know you don't because i wouldn't be talking to you then but like a lot of left-leaning people are talking broadly like the bernie or bust mentality it seems like that this revolutionary ideology is generally most easily held if you're in a pretty comfortable position like if you're a guy that's going to school mom and dad are pretty wealthy it's pretty easy to you know hold up your be begun in the background it's like yeah where the revolution is coming but when it comes to like actual people that are working right now or maybe disaffected groups like gay people that or women um that might lose the ability to have an abortion in the united states that's coming up um that this idea that we just throw everything out until a revolution happens is deeply troubling to me it misses all of the problems that actual working class people have and it just kind of brushes them off to the side for the sexy fantasy of the massive revolution rising up that who knows how many years away we could be from that like but are you criticizing their ends or are you criticizing their efficaciousness um i mean i think that the i think i think the thing i'm most critical of is is the political effectiveness like i i don't think that i just don't think it's effective to take a minority of the population because progressives are and to try to hold the whole left side hostage in the hopes that more people will come over to your side and then until then you just say well screw all working class people let them suffer in the meantime they're going to all be margues for our cause it's kind of like the broader problem that i have i uh i'm not a burnier buster allow me to defend burnier bust if i may sure um there's i think that accelerationism gets a lot of bad rap sometimes accelerationism i mean no you know what it is but just the idea of of upping the stakes until you reach a point where things are favorable to you essentially and i think that we implement these processes in our electoral system all the time the bidding that goes not bidding sorry the the the debate that goes on in congress you know when you add bills to other bills like oh will you not vote for it now that it has your your favorite daycares funding you know put in people the process of accelerationism i think it's sound it's it's um an intelligent application i think sometimes that bugs me with burnier bust specifically the reason i'm not and the only reason i'm not is because i don't believe the dnc actually cares about winning the presidential election i think that ultimately the dnc is beholden to its corporate interests the same way republicans are and much in the same way that many agents within the dnc don't like bernie sanders that much not to speak of rigging or anything they just don't seem to like him that much um i don't think they would ever allow i think i do believe perhaps uh maybe a little cynically of me that they would rather lose to trump that went with bernie um if it weren't for that though i do wonder because the thing that gets the bernier bust folk out of beddie for morning you know is is the thought like which is less ethical to perpetuate a miserable system into perpetuity until we all drown or to kick the you know kick the cogs until we can get the thing working again if this was true if this dnc was such an evil stuff i i think political organizations exist to secure power for themselves and that's generally what political organizations do this idea that the dnc would say well if our guy didn't make it we don't want it we don't care if bernie wins the election or not we're just going to see the trump and we'll get our own guy in next next election cycle um if this was true one of the most powerful political machines that have existed in all time is the clinton dynasty obama was a relatively unknown senator when he came up through that election cycle and everybody threw their weight behind him once he destroyed hillary and i don't know how many people remember you know people maybe i'm misremembering it's been a long time like that election cycle that that primary was absolutely vicious i wasn't politically engaged it was unbelievable and i remember thinking at the time um like wow i don't think the democrats are going to be able to come together after this because holy jesus like hillary it was pretty clear that hillary was going to be the nominee and after eight years it was pretty clear we were going to have a democratic president and that was like that was like hillary's for the taking and then obama came up relatively out of nowhere and just destroyed her dabs on her yeah but dnc threw their weight behind obama um we went through the election cycle it's not like they were like oh well we're not going to do anything you know hillary campaign from and everything and it seemed like politics continued obama didn't really challenge the class interest the dnc though i mean obama was relatively progressive at the time but economically i mean bernie sanders is i think you could agree something that bothers me when the left they'll be like oh bernie sanders would be a moderate europe holy fucking wouldn't bernie sanders is very clearly a socialist barely clinging on to the veneer of social democracy and i love them for that's like hey great you know fuck europe get them out of here we already have um but um uh he is i think i mean it was substantively more of a threat to the entrenched class interests of the bourgeois than obama could and i just want to be i just want to be clear though i'm not saying like there's a secret corporate meeting at the dnc with the like no i understand when you talk about just we could just be talking about like a broad consensus yeah yeah individual actors have slight biases that letting them win i don't even think that chris mathews said he would like well do we really want bernie over trump i mean he said it you know sure that that mathews was the guy that quit recently right yeah yeah the sexual harassment that okay yeah that guy very clearly bucking hates no of course that guy clearly that guy's an outlier but i'm sure that something exists to some extent with a lot of these people so um one of the things that i hope a lot of people looked at was so i feel like um i actually ordered manufacturing consent and i will read it when as soon as i get a really good i'm sure it is yeah but i i've seen i've read a lot of stuff in the meantime that that manufacturing consent presents like a pretty one-sided view of like um corporations manufacture kind of the ideas that people take on and then that's basically they kind of like drive public opinion but i've seen like a lot that that says that like it's actually more like a two-way thing that like public opinion manufacturers of private sector private secret but it's very much like a give and take between the two um when bernie sanders became the front runner the tune on a lot of mainstream media like was very surprising when he did that town hall um after he became the front runner those were some of the easiest softball questions i've ever seen in my life the hosts were pretty nice to him a lot of people on the on the major news stations on cnn and msnbc um and a couple other guys like had pretty nice things to say like they were pretty warm towards them it wasn't the same combative tone like the horribly one when he was like such an underdog which kind of makes me wonder well you know um and i know you're not saying there's a grand conspiracy but like is it so much that all these people that's seen in msnbc are so scared of their class interests being threatened and they don't want taxes to go up blah blah blah blah or is it more just like the media knows who the public's favorite candidate is and they're more likely to be a lot softer on that guy because they want to keep their ratings up versus bernie sanders who's an outsider and then as soon as bernie sanders is like the front runner they kind of like warm up to him like quite a bit he wasn't able to like convert that into like a real political lead but they were like pretty warm towards them in that in that brief period um i do you think that it's more likely that people in the media are more likely to just be friendly towards a candidate that is seen as more popular because they want to protect their ratings rather than any type of actual class interest corporate donor stuff going on like that i think the problem with by the way anyone who criticizes manufacturing consent as a class trader it's okay you don't have to listen but um the the problem with discussing stuff like this is is that it's very difficult to force one lens of analysis on why the media or an industry behaves the way it does invariably class interest is a huge part of it but also like you said favorability and ratings are how the media exists um even if you know business a wants this it's not as though for example like uh the news anchors are going to go up there on msnbc and talk about how like the opioid crisis is fake because they just got a donation from a far into usual there's there's obviously some variance there but as we agree you agree the the point ultimately of an institution is to preserve itself that is always yeah whether it's a union or government or a business or a capital yeah and a business functions the same way and we know businesses have influence over policy over media over public education over what bills get passed which don't over who gets airtime over who gets taken seriously and who doesn't and who gets to buy all the means necessary to promote oneself um i can't make any strong definitive claims like the dnc would never allow bernie sanders to win over trump because i think i that would ignore the multivariate analysis of the how these decisions come to be more than i do believe there are genuine biases there that can't be addressed from within the corporate media and we will never know the extent to which that bias exists only that it does and sometimes i think lefties go too far attributing that bias where sometimes people will be like i heard people say literally jeff bezos tells like wapo journalists what to write a single hand at the a lk person it's like calling down the journalists like don't publish an article whatever why is it perhaps a coincidence that wapo is pretty actively anti-burning i think after getting bought up by you know jeff bezos i don't think so i don't know the extent of the bias and i never will know all i can know is that i think whatever bias there is is a toxic influence the question i'd have for you then is i think when it comes to what we believe is wrong with this country we would agree on almost everything we're both uh socially progressive so when it comes to like trans or gay black i would say almost everything i think america's done a lot of cool stuff even on the world stage compared to other countries i think uh you mean what do you think we would disagree on in terms of like ideal world um i mean we definitely have a lot of work to do but i think we're better off than we were like 20 30 or 40 years ago well i agree with that with a possible exception of some things for example i think a women's right to an abortion was probably more secure 20 years ago than it is today that's probably true yeah um but um we when it comes to like do we want people to have health care do we want people to not experience economic alienation do we want people to be happy to make friends for example i never even get to talk about this with you like the social elements of capitalism the anomie from the means of production that lead to everyone feeling so disaffected and lonely which is an increasing problem these days but it's very complicated i know my problem is that like people always point to its capitalism as technology is also huge industrialization is a massive thing you know like the ussr hunted some species of whales almost out of existence the ussr drained the rlc which is like the fourth largest body of water in the world i wouldn't i don't claim the ussr sure i understand but i'm saying that these were people that were were not driven necessarily by profit motive but by government mandate um and you know like it's so funny like people today are saying well now more than ever you know we see that we needed medicare for all based on the coronavirus like really a lot of the big problems we have with the testing had to do with trump himself making decisions about you know our our uh like the was it the cdc team or what was the he got rid of the pandemic team in 2018 the cdc that obama hadn't stated i think after the ebola thing or i think so yeah it was like a really new thing so like would medicare for all really be that much better at addressing this problem with somebody like donald trump at the top um you know i'm not exactly sure now not to say that like our current system is better than a medicare for all or any type of universal health coverage in any way i just don't think that like these problems are solved or addressed and i think sometimes they're by changing economic systems and i think sometimes they're misattributed to different types of economic systems as well i think that industrialization under socialism would lead to just as much climate catastrophe as industrialization under capitalism i have to i have to challenge you on that because because you've cited the ussr as an example but when i say i favor socialism as a solution to many of these problems i do this with the caveat the reason i believe this is because i believe the fewer power hierarchies there are in a society the better things are for everyone uh the ussr the difference between the most powerful man and the least powerful man in that society was infinitely greater than that which we have here today you know i'm not so if i should be specific it is not capitalism then that is the issue it is any system which it's any system which promotes hierarchy but socialism worse than capitalism and before that the emperors and slaves of old so like empirically i can argue economically that i know that's not true so for instance if we were to talk about factory farming versus personal farming personal farms are so much more disastrous for the environment than doing it on a large scale now i don't know if that would apply to every other type of thing that we could do like at scale but i know that generally producing things at scale is a lot more um it was a lot less damaging to the environment than doing it in highly segregated matters i'm not opposed to at scale manufacturing though obviously factory farming has its problems sure of course right yeah but but again i mean if that um factory farm but i'm saying necessarily that would produce some form of hierarchy right right but i think that hierarchy as so far as it exists because some hierarchies are necessary there are hierarchies of talent and there are hierarchies of public relations you know obviously not everyone can advocate for their own rights in a completely evil environment but um a lot of the problems that we see i think fundamentally are reinforced by the divide between not just the big firm and the small firm but the fact that the big firm has one ceo who makes 62 million dollars a year who you know personally lobbies to have favorable bills passed rather than a broad collective of but that's not that's a microcosm that's a microcosm of the issue though but if you take a look at the ussr it's not just one ceo though it's an entire board of directors and it's representing the will of all the investors that has a fiduciary responsibility to deliver returns to the company okay well that the the existence of private capital is obviously something that i would take issue with obviously i mean we have to be a little bit simplistic you're gonna say that i mean we could for any length of time but broadly i mean it's industrialization has brought about many of the problems that i think people misattribute to capitalism but i think capitalism reifies and amplifies them because it's good at because it's good at controlling markets sure it is so like if you wanted to say like socialism would be way better for the environment than capitalism because socialist country would probably be slower to technologically evolve i mean i could i could probably agree that sure that's not the argument i'm like that's cheating right no well that is cheating but i'm not saying that a socialist economy would be slower i'm saying though perhaps in the case of climate change a socialist economy might have a greater degree of transparency and a greater degree of what would you say market accountability that would lead to people in a democratic sense being more open to the ideas of taking cuts to their manufacturing not just the people who work there but broadly implement the policy and i we've had this but we've seen i understand the transparency but the idea that you could get that that an average person would even care about that level of transparency between every single industry i think is fantastic what if what if we just take a huge issue like climate change and we get rid of the fact that all of the major media outlets that are pushing this climate change is a hoax nonsense are largely funded by people who either directly work with or a buddy's with oil and gas companies every murdoch owned media company we take australia we take the u k we take the us these are where the climate change debates are nowhere else do we see this degree of contention these are the wealthiest countries in the world and somehow we are subject to the greatest amount of disinformation on this if we just take away that if we acknowledge the fact that it is in this specific instance corporate power the divide between the powerful and the not powerful that is contributing to misinformation which is contributing to people's belief that this isn't something we need to make sacrifices for i think we would have been able to take steps sooner and i agree but my criticism with the media there still stands but i would argue that in a socialist system the exact same thing could happen that a large collection a co-op owned firm that has all the workers if anything they would be even more driven to to misinform the public because every single one of them has a personal vested interest right we can argue that a capital owner at axon mobile might be you know capitalistically motivated to lie to the public about whether or not fossil fuels are damaging the environment but that's just him arguably his workers shouldn't care as much because they don't get as much money to support and a co-op that could actually be amplified where now every single line level worker feels like they're personally invested in telling people that climate change isn't a big deal because they heard it from their union leader who heard it from their union union leader who heard it from the guy you know at whatever levels because they're all personally invested in their job because now all of them are reaping rewards and benefits from it as well in both these situations you need a third party body to come in and figure out what's going on you know this is the EPA these are guys that they're not a co-op they're not worker owned they're not capital owned these are this is a body that's supposed to make relatively unbiased decisions about you know the status of do these people harm the environment or not I don't think that that making it all collective helps it I don't think having a single capital owner there you know lobbying out I wouldn't trust anything he says but in all cases it has to come from a third body it's not the economic system doesn't take care of itself I'm not arguing we should get rid of a third body I'm fine with regulatory industries and I would expect there to be pretty severe regulations on any cooperatively owned industries I don't think they get to get away scot-free just because they're cooperatively owned the issue is that this fundamentally is the concept of class consciousness and of class interest if you take for example let's say we've unionized or we've collectivized like the oil industry I do believe that the people within that system would be incentivized to lie about the extent to which climate change is like affecting our system the difference though is that the system through which they have pushed that misinformation isn't just the oil industry and the government and the media it's a massive higher order hierarchy that is pretty much entirely orchestrated by CEOs stockholders venture capitalists higher-level politicians everyone essentially with you know a tremendous amount of economic and political power and it is the union of these interests that allowed this upper level system that subverts our democracy to be built I agree that the oil company would have an interest in collectively owned you know pushing this anti-climate change nonsense but it would be them and them alone and avoid there wouldn't be this huge network this architecture I agree I understand of course and I'd be happy to talk about it with you more in the future but we can look previously at other instances where power has been democratized and this does lead to greater clarity in issues that you would expect the little people would have a similar interest in pushing misinformation on I guess like those would be the cases where I would want to see it because yeah I guess in the three the three the only three examples that I'm very familiar with would be the USSR trying to undermine and then Vietnam I don't know these examples I just yeah I know yeah but yeah that's the thing you get to disavow every system that you don't like but now I have to like inherit all the messy atrocities that are all I want to talk about is the next step I'm not talking about anarchism or like the glorious post-capital revolution yeah and I understand what do we do right now we can't seem to make any ground on this on climate change and yeah and that's and that's kind of what I was getting at earlier it's like where do you want to see the movement go from here one thing here's here's an idea that I really like and oh my tell me what to do give me my my libertarian is coming out from my my teenage years seeing states try things I think is a really good step forward when some states are like hey we're sanctuary cities we're not going to report people ice fuck you and then seeing well how does that play out how is california impacted by immigration versus other states um california god I haven't looked at how it's going to impact my taxes yet but I think california has like a form of social health care right now medic medicow they recently yeah I think they implemented like there's like a penalty really recent or my thing I think so like there's like a penalty that started last year or this year for everything I think I should have read more about there was another state that's implementing like a medicare for all type things yeah possibly was in Colorado if states try this like step by step I mean I don't I don't know if I can really say this like arguably it's kind of how gay marriage kind of came about me I mean it was from the supreme we legalization started by state by state by state yeah marijuana legalization cannabis was legalized state by state hopefully the da or somebody whoever comes in next finally fucking changes that but um yeah maybe like pushing for these policies on a this is kind of what I'm talking about in the horrible incremental change but like pushing these policies on a state by state level seeing them being effective on a state by state level and then being like hey federally these people do this why don't we all do this like it works for them you know like the revenue being raised from a lot of these states that legalize cannabis is pretty inarguable you know and there aren't all these horrible downstream effects that people said they were people aren't getting high and driving their children into fucking trees constantly or any crazy shit like that pushing for those at a local level I think can be incredibly effective okay I completely agree with that I think that's a I'm generally one who pushes federal power I think because at least in recent years there have been a lot of examples of the government cracking down on you know the misbehavior of some of the states I disagree with more politically but I think if we can have like testing grounds for some of the stuff I completely agree with that I think I think that's an excellent solution with allowing sort of more broad oh hell and that's a great wedge issue too because the confederate types you know those south will rise again types always push states where it's like okay that and guns you know you got to find the wedge issues to talk with them about your your pro are you program I don't I like gun I know you like guns personally but every national conversation we have about guns is really stupid because the only thing we talk about are assault rifles which kill like 200 people a year five problems that relate to guns have yeah it's it's a complicated conversation but yeah okay I'm generally very pro-gun you know I don't mean I don't mean to hold you account to all the problems with you know capitalism or anything like that I understand that we both recognize there's a ton of wrong done in the world it's more a building sense of frustration I feel that I know a lot of other people are feeling right now we are very quickly headed towards like populism just being like the rule of law for sure but it looks like I personally believe that Biden will lose to Trump it seems like there's leeway to go on both sides there I don't really know well no matter what though I don't think the rights going to go back to like Mitt Romney era corporate like you know clean clean it'll be interesting to see what I have no idea what happens after Trump I I don't know how they replace the cult of personality but I don't know there's an increasing you know populist ferfer on the left to Bernie Sanders maybe he didn't get like within a hair's breadth of the presidency this time but I mean it's a pretty he's a socialist you know and him getting this close means something he's not a socialist I would be careful that but I think he is you don't think like he's well I think he's covert about it but I think he genuinely I mean with all the stuff he said anti like you know I think he's pretty he's he's firmly a sock damn and maybe he flirts with democratic socialism the most socialist thing I've ever heard Bernie Sanders say was it's not part of the Green New Deal where they where they suggest workplace democracy at 20 percent of each court that's like the most socialist thing I've ever heard by the way base just want to say that publicly known I think he's covertly a socialist yeah maybe he might be I think that labeling himself that way probably hurt him more than anything rather than calling self a sock damn that's what I wonder about though and I think that's relevant to what I want to ask you as well because I think we agree broadly that there is a unified need for people who are pushing policy and people who are running around the streets with you know their their picket signs what have you being accused of being like antifa terrorist by fox news that's you know our job I think but I think what Bernie Sanders did was very very special not necessarily his bid for the presidency but is inspiring this left-leaning populism in so many people in this country and him destigmatizing the term socialism a little bit maybe not the republicans but at the very least moderates and democrats and I think this is only going to lead down the line to angrier and angrier elections to more and more terrorist attacks you know we have a lot of white nationalist terrorist attacks going on right now I think that we're going to see an increase in this eco fascism eco yeah eco fascism we're gonna bring it about and I think things are going to grow more and more violent with time and I just don't know if there's a stop gap a democratic stop gap a civil way of processing these antagonisms outside of some radical shit and to that I ask you what would you like to see revolutionaries be doing obviously not taking the streets with their you know ak-47s but what would you like to see them be doing in terms of propagating information because you criticize a lot I know Kyle Kalinsky isn't technically a socialist but by god he sounds like one when he talks about the media conspiracies and whatever yeah this is a hard question because what I want is way different than what you should probably do for public I just don't like when people say dumb shit that is just not true hey me hey I try not to propagate misinformation yeah I try my best I think for them I don't think I generally hear you say anything really stupid at the one point I will admit I this is I'm owning up to this when I heard the 1.5 trillion thing I just saw the number I didn't know it was the Fed I thought it was Trump you know so I did the student loan thing oh I know it's the Fed print money berber now I know okay the memes educated me yeah I guess like my biggest my two biggest things I think were the two points that I brought up earlier is one recognize that you have to work within the whole system like being anti-establishment is sexy when you're a teenager but eventually you have to grow up and realize when I get shit done you gotta work within the establishment right Bernie Sanders like I believe when the postmortems are being written about that campaign a lot of it is going to come down to him not reaching out for the endorsements that he needed to Bloomberg had more endorsements than Bernie Sanders campaign and a lot of that was a deliberate effort on their part maybe they like maybe they thought being anti-establishment was sexy and that was part of their draw but like you need to have friends in in places like you need to have people in the media that you can communicate with you could talk to that help you with messing you need to have people in congress that will actually sign your bills you know the Green New Deal looks good on paper doesn't mean anything if it's not being passed in an era where you're passing records amount of legislation through the house that's all dying on the senate yeah just but like yeah like there are it's a graveyard so one so the one thing is you have your allies okay even if you disagree that's fine but don't shit on them for their disagreements you know like AOC's like ex-campaign managers shitting on democrats in vulnerable districts because they weren't ready to fucking march out with you know like a hammer and sickle flag not cool not good don't go hard after people that are on your side is is the one thing and then the second thing is recognize that there are lots of positions available to be worked by lots of different types of people that we wouldn't hold a political activist to the same standard that we would hold a political operative like like somebody in congress or whatever or that we wouldn't hold something like a media person you know that he said it himself you know organizer in chief not commander exactly yeah i feel like he acted like an activist yeah in ways that maybe i agree very much in a dramatic shift for my 2016 self to quote hillary clinton it's very important sometimes to have a private and a public position that you don't go out as a as a congressperson you don't go out every day on your sleeve with the most aggressive plan of action you know you take what you can get votes on you know but there is sort of a slippery slope there because eventually that sort of complacency can lead you to being the same like a paper mache like that's all you can do as a politician though the activists are the ones that have to drive american well that depends on how many politicians are willing to link their arms together and really get changed on well you can link your arms together all you want but the long as you can do for us two years and then after that if you lose all your offices and then everything gets rolled back i think you can do it while keeping you know the the the support of your democratic constituency well that's the challenge right is is you have to push for as much as you can you know like the aoc bernie sanders is a very popular senator i think isn't he the most popular senator in the he might be but but it means something it means he can be him which you have a month try in the right but that's a step you can do it in a plus 60 blue district very safe that's great but these aren't the people that are getting the legislation passed we need the people from the vulnerable districts to come out to win those seats to flip them in the house and maybe in in four years hopefully maybe the senate too these are the people that we really need that are going to drive real legislative change in america what do you do when they're not doing their job because right right now aoc bernie sanders they're doing great jobs being activists you know disguised as politicians fantastic they get so many likes and retweets you know everyone loves them yeah within their own constituency exactly but when it comes to people like polosi for example and i admit i i'm not completely right up on her entire history god you know she's been doing stuff for a while but it does feel very often like she's not fulfilling her end of the bargain you know the the the goal is supposed to be people like me or sanders or aoc or whatever um we're supposed to be very angry and we get people's interest drummed up and then they take those interests and people like polosi are supposed to filter them through the machine and make something happen but lately it feels like her and people like her aren't just overwhelmed by how ineffective the system is they're also actively contributing to an inability to push forward certain measures but they they have to work within like what they have but then what do we do you have to public opinion has to change but what but how do you do that without not by telling everybody to vote on some radical piece of legislation that's going to get them all kicked out of congress and then bring in all republicans i would be interested to see how much that actually happens so there is a um there was a big study done by the eat oh god i don't remember is this like the is like the medicare for all issue lead to a higher percentage chance yeah it was like the medicare for all issue was a huge wedge issue and almost every democrat that ran on it lost horribly in the districts they tried to run and in all of the contested districts where people actually managed to flip a seat it was for people that ran opposed to medicare for all that like those types of important wedge issues are brings us back to manufacturing consent and how corporate media well then manufacture the consent that's what Bernie Sanders raised more money than any other politician you've got the money you've got the support around the country now you've got and you've got the social media support you've got the alternative media you've got the alexandria kaiser-cochesis arguably maybe one of the most popular politicians in the entire world so you've got the social capital um you've got the financial capital to some extent bernie sanders raises a crazy amount of money now you have to get the political capital you have to start changing people's opinions in some of these areas you have to get some of these people on your side politically talking to me like i disagree with i agree with you completely this is but but this is at least fundamentally non electoral this isn't just you run with your ideas this is we are going to orchestrate through our own media a change in the public opinion and then we'll be able to get our cool shit done which is of course how i mean this is why you know you tell yourself organizer and chief this is fundamentally activist work but if you unify the activist work with the money necessary to actually change people's opinions then you can really get work done the only issue is bernie sanders has made a lot of money the tremendous amount of money um but in terms of his overall spending capacity you know he's a fraction of what bloomberg could do it would take one billionaire in this country one secret socialist billionaire you know to single-handedly do with the with the murdochs of under the co-brothers you know and propagate i actually a new revolution i think to some extent thirty billionaire money i know i think to some extent i think that there is an uncomfortable reality that is settling i think that a little bit of this election has kind of been a referendum on how much does money and politics actually drive public opinion at least when it comes to campaign fundraising because people would have led us to believe especially progressives that would have had a far more greater impact steyer was a billionaire bloomberg didn't outspend steyer by that much and that dude is a wh omega lull nobody knows who steyer is outside of south carolina where he's still what did he get third place in south carolina in the one state that he banked everything on this guy spent hundreds of millions of dollars got nothing bernie sanders like biden won in states where he spent like six thousand dollars no and bernie sanders now we can talk about earned media unearned media right well i would say it's not the money matters but not so much in the campaign financing it matters more in who the moneyed interests actually believe should be supported but and bloomberg was able to buy before he stepped in the debate stage imagine if he wasn't you know a horrible you know politicians but yeah yeah imagine if he was actually a human being with human skin instead of reptilian skin like he was able to buy like 13 percent of the vote i mean that's a did he buy did he buy it though or did he was able to get by in his name recognition as a three term mayor of new york and as somebody that has like the bloomberg media empire i'm pretty sure without the 400 million ad buy that you have to admit it must have contributed substantially a lot of people who uh i remember there was a there was some study done on who you supported and how recently you've made that decision and why you made that decision oh and bloomberg was very very very um people were recent but they were more likely to vote for anybody else because it was because it was a placeholder you see the name on tv same way when i'm driving down i don't know all the local city councilmen but i see names on signs and you know i pray to god when i'm at the voting booth like oh jesus i hope it wasn't a republican's house you know when i drove by that sign um the degree to which money matters in this sector or another again i think it's it's very multivariate um but it is undeniable that the ability to move money behind the scenes is one of the greatest uh sort of contributors to the the um manufacturing consent element you know again i i bring up murdoch a lot and i bring up the co-brothers a lot because as somebody who uh deals with a lot of conservative media online almost all of it trickles down from them steven krauter or ben chapiro and a lot of other outputs yeah dav rubin and and these are i mean god this youtube i mean if they're willing to bankroll like millions of dollars to prop up these highly effective like conservative you know um propaganda machines they're absolutely doing it at the higher level too and we you know we see what we can see sometimes the money is you know dark um and we can only really assume through collective interest what they are and aren't doing it's just it's so frustrating to me that by way of my political agenda being opposed to the people who have money i am we are almost constitutionally incapable of assembling the same kind of media influence regardless of how popular our ideas are as somebody on their side would be you can be a conservative sound halfway decent look good in the suit there are people line up to give you money to say your stupid shit on youtube or anywhere else any new show on our side all of it has to be blood and bone working non-stop 18 rallies a day uh you know uh grassroots fundraising it's exhausting bernie sanders i mean he did something unprecedented with all the money that he's raised and he's done good and i love him for it but it's not any even close to the media influence that you can buy with real money and i don't know if there's a way to move through that system forward yeah i guess i mean i i guess like one point of agreement we have is that the way that the media structure definitely needs to change that tying like a for-profit motive on media is probably a very cancerous thing to do for society yeah i think maybe like a national i know the bbc has is is horrible but i think i maybe they're or we yeah but when we say the bbc is horrible is it horrible like fox news is horrible i don't know no no no no it's i mean they're pretty i know they've mistreated corbin a lot but i don't think they're like fox news man um god well do you think then this is what i always say um you know i'm your very revolutionary sentiment or what have you um obviously revolutions are bloody scary business you know the anyone anyone unironically who's like online like larping about how they're gonna you know can't wait to to molotov their local like ice station like a you know uh even ignoring the practicality poor optics god get them out of here but i've always said this eventually one day there's going to be a revolution um i think probably it's going to be on account of climate change climate migration is going to force a bunch of generally poor generally brown people to move all across the world hundreds of millions of them and i mean if we see what seven million refugees did to europe a billion people in europe and how much far-right sentiment is rising over there i can't imagine what that's going to do and eventually you know liberal democracy won't be able to keep up with popular sentiment something's gonna break and then we have authoritarian regimes are gonna come in and deal with it like china and that is where i'm concerned because on that day which way the the needle the new york times election needle goes depends on whether in this country socialists or fascists and i would consider the republican party to be more or less openly fascist organization or as much as you can be in a democracy um which way we go just depends on which one's more popular and i worry we need to get as many people as possible on board with that with that the burning train or further you know if for no other reason than because eventually it's going to be one extreme or the other and i'm sure you would agree with me you would rather have people with my you know lofty ideals in some position like position in charge rather than somebody like oan benjamin or a christ church suitor esque you know i guess i don't know it depends on what flavor of leftism or fascism you're talking about just a few minutes if you we can keep going if you guys like for several more minutes but then when you're ready for q and a i love q and a hit us up you know what i think we both are like freedom very much i'm sure um i would not be satisfied with any revolutionary sentiment that was authoritarian in nature i've lost a lot of uh a surprising number that seem to bend that way i think it's changing i think that authoritarianism and populism go hand in hand very often because you want that strong you just want that strong leader to show you everything because problems are complicated you don't know how the fuck you're going to fix anything because everything is so complicated these days yeah i sympathize with the sentiment but i'm sure you know like the like the tankies and stuff i've been pretty adamant in not promoting any of those sentiments yeah for sure um so yeah hopefully we can get do you want to do q and a yeah what do you got for us excellent so we'll do a quick q and a folks we definitely won't get to all the questions we appreciate all of your questions we'll try our best but like i said be prepared that we might not and we want to say a special huge thanks to several people as this has been so much fun folks we really encourage really encourage you to check out the links in the description i've got destiny and vash i've put their links in the description for you so if you're listening and you're like hmm i like that i want to hear more you can hear more and also want to say in addition to uh in addition to the thank you to both vash and destiny who have come here thanks so much also who have made it possible for this charity drive today this is the only time that i will say hey do a superjet a hundred percent of your super chat we will be giving to a charity we're going to talk about it afterwards we're we're going to look for a responsible reliable charity that is helping alleviate the negative effects of corona virus so want to let you know that's an option and last but not least want to say thanks so much to adam friend did i have put his link in the description this is a beautiful studio and i have to be honest it's it's really hard to find a good studio and a person who's going to give you a good deal and so i really appreciate how kind he has been in making this possible as well so thanks so much to adam and with that folks we've got a lot of questions so thanks for being here i'm going to be going through these as quick as i can and so last but not least do want to remind you if you haven't please do check out their links in the description sorry about that folks i'm pulling up the discord the uh questions now oh embarrassing this is having a ump stalling i was getting nervous i thought you're gonna pull a sargon i'd rather the alt right wind than the than the sjw's all right just making sure i'd rather as much as i hate to clash it i probably prefer that all right folks thanks so much so first katia thanks for your super chat who said thanks for the interesting discussion love it so that's you guys want to say thanks so much to you again then we have mothra j disco who says republicans platform is equal to killing the poor for the lulls thanks so much for that mothra j disco that's my official response it's true they are sociopaths they do just want you dead there's no nuance to it it's it's that simple they're like uh fairy tale villains we got a critic out there thanks for that peace keeper thanks for your super chat they said leaves a deb let's see i didn't know you did debate malinu oh yeah yeah it was uh it was uh a few weeks ago it was a lot of fun he's very smooth on top of and inside of the skull oh that's really interesting i'll have to check that out let's see brice nance thanks for your super chat they said i bet if you two had a baby it would be a super smart and charismatic socialist revolutionary thank you all three for this conversation that's very nice i like that uh so a steel savior take the politics from my side of the family i guess steel savior thanks for your super chat they said destiny everyone i know in real life that is bernie robust is very poor and needs health care as soon as humanly possible and needs prison reform now or they will lose loved ones uh okay i don't know i mean a lot of people need health care a lot of people need uh prison reform i don't know what the response is to that um i think oh so he was trying to counter my earlier claim about being bernie or bust whatever um i have a hard time believing i i guess this guy's anecdote maybe it's true but i have a hard time believing that these people are like oh okay well i'm okay with another four years of trauma because i don't want to buy them like if you like are genuinely hurting for health care or if you genuinely have people that are like affected negatively by the prison industrial complex you know you're better off under biden than you are under trump and to pretend that you can just deal with another four years of whatever sounds like some shit that a person would say that doesn't have to deal with those problems but it's my impression of that i'm not burning your bust myself i do think sometimes people overstate the degree to which accelerationism is a privileged position but it's really complicated gotcha thanks very much dino bot two thanks so much they said hasn't destiny criticized many progressives as being one issue voters seems to cut contradict his suggestion that progressives should only focus hard on one or two issues and not compromise on those a lot i think most people are one issue voters um in 2016 i was a single issue voter on campaign finance um i'm trying to think of the most favorable way what one would i have said i've criticized somebody for being a one issue voter like i've said multiple times like people don't care about foreign policy people don't really care hardcore about a lot of economic i think most people are one issue voters i don't know what i would have said to contradict that i think i'd agree with that yet or or or at least if people do because i don't think most people vote based on policy but if they do i think they yeah very like one or two like they're like abortion this is my abortion like my mom would probably single issue or like some people like i want 15 an hour minimum wage or this is like the minute yet yeah gosh yeah thanks so much next seris the skeptic formerly known as seris skeptic now seris says just dropping some support for vosh i love you too seris um always happy to see you in chat lots of love steven steen very trollish says bloomberg should give one million to all instead of hoarding very nice one million to every american i think that checks out i think you can afford that that's uh that's our economic stimulus package right there don't think it has that much it's a million billion a rule sorry that tweet went live on uh was it msnbc which one oh god i think it was msnbc yeah it was msnbc where they had the tweet where it was like bloomberg spent four hundred and twenty five million dollars on the election that's enough to give every single american one million wait was that wait did that actually yeah it was on ironically that's real that's really funny that's a nice aurora thanks for your super chat they said destiny what alternative to democracy do you refer to this is like i'm gonna give this ultra fucking lame answer democracy is the worst system except for every other system that's been tried i i mean i have problems with democracy but i don't know i mean like arguably i think everybody would ideally want to live under an authoritarian regime that agrees with every single thing they agree with so i mean obviously i would be a favor of that but realistically it's not possible um but the only the only worry that i have right now is um oh you saw this was syria the other day um where the leader was referring to she is like his brother and shit um i don't know the story basically the the the way that my uneducated opinion is is that it looks like china is trying to move into position where they're going to become like the leader of the like world that they're going to take that position away from america um because in a democratic system you're just you're too slow to respond to like external pressure just argue i guess it's one of the big reasons why fascists come about is because they say a democratic body can't respond yeah yeah represent the world of people under its authoritarian government is very very very quick to to deal with problems whether it's climate change coronavirus too they well initially no initially they have some journalists but afterwards yeah yeah and now they're going to other countries help them too and they're taking like a leadership role on that while america is trying to buy up the rights to the vaccine from fucking germany yeah only if we get it folks you know christ um horrifying funny but yeah so yeah i mean like yeah there are definitely really strong strengths to authoritarian regimes that i think democratic regimes are gonna have to figure out how to contend with um we used to do it via alliances but those have been faltering lately so we'll see i guess i just want to disavow china's closer to a fascist regime than is a communist one much closer i'm just i have no association whatsoever okay don't don't email me thanks so much next up we have a super chat from osu osu thanks so much they said what will each debater do to stop the tyranny of family courts what would you propose to replace the evils has done that oppresses innocent fathers i think that you should do something about it but i don't think it's this huge issue that's like so pressing that i pay a lot of attention i mean yeah it sucks that um courts could be biased against men in some ways but it's just not something i think about much i guess yeah i think a lot of people overstate the severity of the problem but i do want to say that the reasons why family courts are often considered i don't have the exact i don't know the exact data to be biased against men is usually because they see women to be sort of intrinsically better caregivers or mothers than like men could be fathers which is a product of patriarchal sentiment so ultimately this is an issue where where where you know gender egalitarianism would be sort of amicable even to men i think men are often much more hurt by sexism towards women than people are willing to realize gotcha thanks so much let's see clever to swear that's oh i like this that's uh sassy they say i'm happy to donate my money for you to get a better camera for these in real life debates this camera is low quality but debate is not keep it up well we're glad you like the content that's encouraging and i do agree this camera is is our backup camera we had a tough start but by the way i want to say thanks so much to destiny and wash for their flexibility and patience as it was a slow start and also we're streaming on steven's data right now steven thank you no problem thank you i just sat and watched as other people fix that but he did a great job watching this excellent so no it's uh it's been a pleasure so thanks so much for just renewing for any new ones that have come in 21st century socialist thanks they said wash and destiny what are your thoughts on technology being integrated more into the system or at least financial experts and scientists having more influence on policy do you want to go first um the so in a perfect world i i think is it called a technocracy where scientists run everything um i i would like that um the problem is that scientists for oh it's so complicated um chances are if i were to go and pull a whole bunch of scientific people out of an area um they're going to over represent for certain segments of society they're probably going to be more likely to be wealthy probably going to be more likely to be men probably going to be more likely to be white um so i don't know how effective that body would be in addressing things like the fact that women and african americans can't get painkillers prescribed prescribed to them in the same way that white people can or if they would care as much to research different things related to abortion um if they're all men uh like on paper the technocracy sounds awesome like oh cool i can have like a literal scientist in charge of deciding how we should like uh or uh how we should do like medicare programs or whatever like these people that study this that would be awesome um but in reality i don't know exactly how that system would play out just because of the preconceived biases from that highly selected and segmented part of the population technology terrifies me um one of the problems i have with the idea of it of a technocracy i suppose in addition to that is that um power structures need to be seen to be challenged and a the the more um abstraction and the more um uh technology we introduce to how our decision making is made the more difficult it is for the average person to understand and thus to challenge right now it's very easy for anyone to look at like our government and say like okay something here is wrong nothing's getting passed to the senate president's kind of done what can we do it's it's easy to make those assessments um but if you have an incredibly complicated uh hierarchy of um tech masters of you know adapt this mechanic from warhammer 40k mars along with ai that no one outside the people who produced it really understand it makes it really tough to actually know what's going wrong when something goes wrong and you don't know what biases are being concealed and that scares me technology in many ways hurts us um there are some phenomenal things i mean i love what i'm able to do i love uh you know being able to stream great but to the effect that this has had i guess in the social environment of the internet along with many many other things i mean there is good reason to give thought to the idea that maybe some technological advancements shouldn't be uh consumed and adapted quite as quickly as we're currently doing social media as one of us yeah i mean the average american is less friends less partners lose the virginity later everything is worse in every social metric now social media was originally a way to augment your social life and now it's become a replacement for it um and even oh my god i was on a i was on like a raw show a while ago i was arguing with a guy about how like tinder is not the same as meeting girls in real life people like are literally thinking that like these online forums are literal replacements for like real-life human interaction you still you still go out and meet girls in real life um sometimes oh yeah this boomer over here okay jeez we're rolling back to the to the god the previous century the real real life interactions are very very very important they are they just physiologically we're involved we need those things yeah for sure lynn all thanks for your super chat who said thanks dad's good debate very nice prasad tender car thanks for your super chat they said destiny do you think the way that you approach politics as an intellectual exercise creates a natural bias for status quo centrist ideology and policy um it's possible um i i mean like i i would be lying to say that i am free of all the biases of society um i wish i could think of an example but like it's entirely possible that like certain systems or certain schools of thought could to some extent become self-perpetuating that they reinforce themselves um i really enjoy philosophy and i really enjoy psychology both of these things i hope would kind of give me tools to make sure that i'm not like completely getting lost at my own shit um like vash said earlier and like i truly believe i'm not like ideologically married to a particular system i'm a pretty results oriented guy if socialism you know works out in some country or if worker co-ops were really great then i would be 100 in favor of like expand you know subsidized loans from banks to co-ops do all these things to get them started because make it you know better for people um yeah i mean yeah it's a hard question because i'm gonna it would it requires me to lie to say like no i'm totally free of like any type of status quo any type of centrist letter whatever i i don't think i could realistically say that i would like to think that like i do enough research or i do enough homework to make sure that like i'm not getting totally lost on like what a mainstream opinion is and i have no constant of anything that could exist that would challenge that um would you say like heterodoxy or whatever but yeah uh as someone who has no biases whatsoever i do think that's an interesting question um because we pursue this very differently you it is intellectual like finding the most correct position whereas i have like a set of political principles or morals that i want achieved and to me what's good is whatever leads in that direction it's why you don't like rhetoric right because it it it moves away from the raw sort of data of the conversation right which i mean i personally i love it i love public speaking you know but i do think it's an interesting question i think ultimately the the the failings and this isn't a shot or anything because i think there are failings to both sides but one of the concerns i have with very like intellectual policy driven discourse is is i i think it predisposes people towards working only within uh lines that have been drawn and often those are good lines you know we don't want folks shooting each other in the street over every disagreement sometimes the lines are bad and that's where the discourse gets really hazy when can you cross it when is it appropriate to of course as i think you pointed out very fairly the inability to function appropriately within electoral politics is a pretty big failing for many activist types so it's definitely something to be learned on both sides so yeah like maybe recognizing that like well some lines are good maybe it's better to work within an electoral system um rather than doing everything in a revolutionary manner maybe that's a good thing to recognize um maybe crazy ideas maybe you don't actually have to raise taxes for any of the programs you fund maybe the money machine goes burr it's it's possible i mean um you know like that's something where it does go mainstream economic thought was that inflation should be so much higher now for how low um the the fed's target interest rates were for so long and it hasn't happened maybe the money machine can burr a little bit more i don't have any i i don't actually know i know libertarians are very mad about it you know because i saw a funny well the libertarians don't understand anything about money at all well i saw a funny meme where there was a woe jack with a yellow and black bow tie and he was mad that the money machine machine and that's how i know that's the theory that i read before coming here you know thanks so much next up appreciate your super chat from wendell curry who asked destiny what percentage of bernie supporters do you think are bernie or bust um in terms of what it's going to come down to for voting i think the last election cycle it was very very very low so i don't imagine that it'll be a high percentage um the polling data showed that uh bernie and yang were like 50 of the people pledged that they would support wherever the democratic nominee was whereas it was like 85 ish percent for all the other candidates but i think that once the general rules around you can only watch trump for so long without like this bubbling hatred boiling up even hasan on stream was like jesus christ like this guy is fucking blue pilling me so hard towards biden because listening to trump talk about this is fucking abysmal so i mean 100 percent after all of the after super tuesday and super tuesday too and stuff you know all my chat's very angry you know and the anger dies down then we watch trump's uh the national yeah the national emergency address we're like i'm riding with biden baby oh baby uh getting rid of those corn pops the coast to coast oh yeah just you know feed the men listen to the bloodbats nothing honestly compared to what we're dealing with right now thanks so much next up this is a question for vosh vosh does socialism work if you think that people are inherently selfish the belief that people are inherently selfish if one were to subscribe to that would be a belief i think that contradicts with many of the principles of not the principles of socialism but with the effective implementation of many socialist policies it should be noted though that i'm agnostic on the subject of general human behavior i think humans behave more or less in ways that they are conditioned to based on improving their outcomes within a given environment to me it's all about giving everyone the greatest possible mathematical odds of acting in ways that are beneficial to society and i do believe that if there are selfish tendencies within people inherently which i believe there are we we get you know our life you know we do what we can with it i believe it's very important to consider the many ways in which socialist policies can be implemented such as to optimize their desire for self-preservation or self-gratification not just to base those policies on the belief that everyone is good um yeah i i i try i try to operate off the assumption that people even in a socialist society would be as scumbaggy as they are today more or less i think i don't i don't even think it's a good i think i would reject even the premise so well people are selfish so they would like capitalism more than socialism well like if you were truly selfish wouldn't you want to own a part of the business that you work at or like when you want a larger share of like like yeah that that idea that like a selfish person prefers capitalism i think is a bit too simplistic well said comrade yeah like how people actually function in society thanks so much next up appreciate your super chat from vosh do you think that destiny's claim that a lot of the left are class reductionists is true and what are some steps that we leftists can do to help with this shout out to both dgg and vgg um yes the the bastard off child of vgg um no i i i well i do believe that at times uh destiny's claims concerning the uh the the you know frequency with which people are class reductionist may be a little bit overstated i will say this it's more of a problem on the internet than it is in real life there are a lot of very edgy people who came out of a sort of disillusioned you know south park esque caring is you know gay lol mentality and then they became class conscious and they realized oh god we're all being fucked over by corporations what do we do and i think unfortunately that this does lend people towards a stupid poll esque class reductionist um view of the world uh uh ultimately the goal of socialism is human liberation if you believe in socialism but do not believe in safe for example an abolition of racism or sexism as separate and distinct problems which must be addressed then i think you're missing the god damn point also um um as a side uh i do believe that there is some value in rejecting liberal identity politics but liberal identity politics is named as such because it's interested less in liberation and more in fanfare and pandering um i think it's appropriate to reject that without then saying oh wow you care about racism in movies wow uh lib you know gotcha thanks so much and it's an interesting one short and sweet the snake hat asked destiny how will capitalism deal with global warming um i mean there's two different answers i can give one answer would be that capitalism as the cost of fossil fuel and the price of pollution rises and rises is going to find some awesome technological innovation that is going to power us through into the new age of green energy because it's going to be so cost effective and great entrepreneurs like elan musk and other people are going to be like heralding that movement um and then the other answer is that the profit motive right now is not tied to um environmental harm whatsoever and there we're just on a crash course for destruction and nothing will happen so i mean i don't know um i think it's i think i would say that the government should try to incentivize as much as possible um investment into alternative energies uh yeah but i don't think that capital i don't think that any economic system necessarily addresses climate change i think that has to be spurred on by some like artificial construct like a government saying hey do this thing i just want to say whether or not you believe socialism would be a solution to climate change and i do to an extent it is inarguable i think that capitalism has not been the solution to climate change thus far at the problem is you know here one way or another we are very much not uh meeting needed thresholds when it comes to curtailing um greenhouse gas emissions thanks so much and ariel finandez thanks for your super chat they said vosh was the italy the italyan communist party which came first place in the 1984 european parliament election in italy an actual communist party i don't know why you people think i know everything you don't know about the 1984 communist party in italy well oh please go ahead i mean it's your area like i'm actually yeah yeah i'm actually cringing that you weren't aware of the the broad platform that they ran on this is the most support that um communists have gotten in italy in the in the past 40 years shut yeah it's shut up the um the i can answer this almost tautologically if it's a political party then it no it could not have been a communist party like unless there is some crazy you know rejection of the traditional class hierarchies in italy that i am not aware of back during the 1980s um communism fundamentally is a classless stateless society it's possible they were a social reformist party or a socialist party but to be a communist party in a very much stated society is um i don't even know what that would mean you would you could only functionally pass like suck them or like socialist transitionary policies i don't know what you would you can't just you can't just destroy the state like as a party of the state i maybe some people think that can't happen i don't believe in that personally i'll look into it okay i'll read a book they've got a follow-up question so ariel fernandez thanks for your super chat he said wash what do you think you go slavia or do you think you go slavia was socialist you go you go slavia that's with tito right i don't know why i looked at you um the the with tito right okay so tito was a dictator in i think i was gonna horribly embarrassed normally i've chat to correct me if i'm fucking up or something but assuming that tito was the leader of yugo slavia this would would have been back when he defied stalin he was his own special little dictator um i've read some really interesting stuff on yugo slavia's market socialism because i'm a market socialist you know and they had these like collectively owned enterprises that were actually really effective uh you know for their time given the resources available to them um but there were some very critical problems many of which stemmed from the incompatibilities between a hierarchal authoritarian political system and a functionally democratic economic system were they truly socialist i mean a lot of the workers did own a lot of the means of production that's farther along than the ussr came from most of its history so that's good um but is it is it a is it like an example i would look to replicate am i like very proud of this historically um i i don't think so no thanks so much and com dot thanks for your super chat they ask another one for vosh uh or no this is this is for both and the next one's for just for vosh but they say all right obviously there's no revolution tomorrow but what are good ways of fighting for change that are actually efficacious or effective please i talk less um i mean the most important thing you can do is go out and vote obviously um not only that but like get your friends to vote uh it's also really important like there's a lot of volunteer work to be done on on the ground for a lot of these campaigns if you were inspired by bernie sanders performance in iowan new hampshire a lot of that came down to the amount of people that not only volunteered but would literally travel from state to state like working with a lot of these campaigns um the bernie sanders campaign actually had an app you could download on the phone to like get connected and what not to volunteer which was really really cool for them but yeah there's a lot of like places locally to get involved with politics if you like actually reach out to political parties to find out and i know that like volunteering for campaigns is definitely one of them um and then because of how incestuous politics is for for better or for worse or benefits to it um once you start doing that type of work it's easy to continue to do that type of work too like there's a lot of people on you know like the obama and hillary campaigns that are going to work in politics for the rest of their life because of their involvement you know with said campaigns so yeah i mean that that would probably be the place i would start like actual like voting and working with campaigns would be a good place to start i agree voting is not cringe you know it's it's the what do you say like they always say um if voting was you know couldn't do anything or if voting did anything that would make it illegal i mean they're trying to you know with all the voter suppression that goes on all the polling places they close down in texas you know for example um the the goal of revolutionaries should not be to say voting doesn't matter god fuck voting whatever and stay at home the goal of the revolutionary should be to go out and vote and then go back home and say god voting doesn't matter fuck voting that's the goal you know apathy one day but productivity the other and i do agree about that grassroots sort of political organizing it's very effective i say get rid of the apolitical people don't kill them make them political everyone should be invested in politics apolitical people are the what would you call lumpen proletariat you know if you want to be real real fancy with it are the are the the the dead gray masses upon which the corporate elites are able to build their pyramids you know don't let them be apolitical get your friends interested i don't care how apolitical they seem everyone benefits everyone wants a job well everyone needs money at least everyone benefits from their involvement in the political process so push them on that you know even if it's a little cringe you know this matters and it matters to them too um also vote and get folks to do mail-in voting please god care more about your local politics local politics is how you get states to implement mail-in voting and mail-in voting is how you get zoomers to vote because they don't want to go outside because they're playing smash bros i don't know there's a lot that can be done and a lot of it requires paying attention and paying attention fucking hurts because to be politically involved especially as a leftist is a constant source of disappointment but that is the the price we pay the burden we bear for trying to make the world a better place thanks so much and next up appreciate your question from turbo they said did vosh state capitalism exacerbates the problems introduced by industrialization sounds like the opposite position he had when speaking to malinu ah i want to clarify this i think that's excellent capitalism is in my opinion the economic system best situated to take advantage of the productive efforts brought about during the industrial revolution however it has been shown at least through the soviet union that even without the profit motive you can still very rapidly industrialize exigent those points the social and political consequences of the industrialization were a massive increase in the hierarchy between those who own said facilities and those who worked there and that is a hierarchy which produces a great deal of suffering and that is a hierarchy which was put in place functionally by a capitalist economy but i'm not one of those people who said capitalism never did anything good you know it's it's um it has absolutely had its role in history thanks so much and al thanks for your super chat they asked for both this is a neat one what have been the biggest shifts of position for you these past years do you like that um my so 2016 i was like a massive bernie fan and i think like seeing the more intricacies in the u.s political system i think my opinion has changed a lot on that um so i used to believe for instance um like corporate money drove everything that politics were like all like bullshit um but like i'm much more into the like local offices and local elections matter a lot you can't just look at national polling um political strategy is very important you can't just pull something on twitter and find out that that should be like the rule of law in congress but that like paying attention to each and every district and who's vulnerable is like really important um that having like uh that there's like an interwoven like association between like politicians between media between establishment people in congress and and current leaders is like all really important um i i guess basically getting a greater appreciation for the entire game of politics is something that i've developed a lot over the past four four years i guess um that's been a pretty significant departure from how i view politics in 2016 um i haven't joined the alt right the way that uh destiny has but um there have been a fair few things uh i think i've gotten a little bit less ideological which i think is generally a good thing because i think you should okay nobody is truly free of ideology of course but i think that generally you should be able to make arguments that could be convincing to people who don't share the same conclusions as you and i think that and this is something that i've had to develop because i've only started streaming over the past year you know um it's all very well and good to be voraciously you know populist socialist when you're speaking to populist socialists but if you want to have any shot at convincing people who disagree with you you have to approach things from a different perspective so a lot of this has been a rhetorical change or at least an ideological change that facilitates rhetorical change um i've moved over on stuff like rent control as well i think i have a little bit more appreciation for the complexities of the market economy that we live in today doesn't mean i like it anymore it just means that it's a little more complicated that i initially took uh took to believe and that change will have to be not more incremental but at the very least more nuanced than i initially expected um the fed does indeed go berber you know with the money machines um and it's it's you know it's it's a nightmarishly complicated system left these are underrepresented in the field of economics i think that needs to change at least in contemporary economics uh you know we've had a tremendous amount of influence historically thanks so much we're gonna get through just a few more questions folks and then it's it's already been well over two hours so we do want to uh let these guys get some rest we really appreciate all of you being here all your questions we might not get to all of them but we'll sure try to get through as many as we can wawa crates thanks for your super chat who asked will trump formally debate the primary candidate does it even make sense for him to do so when he could just bash the person safely from trump's own rallies or twitter i think you will i i think you it would look too bad for him to avoid at the entire time he can't avoid a call out like that he's a fucking egomaniac there's no way he could resist the applause right he said he wants to go up against biden um i don't i know we maybe disagree on this i think that that biden is a senile um you know uh codger and i do think that trump would have a pretty easy time milking applause off of him whether or not that means he's a better candidate i'm not not to that just in terms of like how like he could like dunk on biden debates i think if nothing else trump would be very confident i think there will be debates and i am i must say um uh a sphincter tighteningly uh concerned as to uh how public perception of those debates will pan out thank you very much quittery thanks for your super chat they said vosh could you explain your position on political violence yeah um a lot of people don't know what political violence really means political violence is just the orchestration of violence or um the deprivation of somebody's uh uh well-being through or for political means police arresting you for anything is political violence even if you murdered some folk what you think you think the law against murder just sprung up out of jerusalem no like i guess it's kind of good but it's also a political thing political violence is a shade very broad shade of grace um and the degree to which you support it varies tremendously depending on which political camp you're in i imagine i support it more than uh than destiny would just by way of me being a populist revolutionary leading guy but we both support some basic levels of it the existence of prisons for example um but more broadly um if you take a look for example like pre abolition like john brown do you really think it'd be a moral of a bunch of slaves got together hoarded up their farm equipment and like bludgeoned their slave master over the head before making a run for it that's political violence right there it's not non ideological they're not just like making this jump to freedom completely through you know the abstract reasoning um it's it's political violence and i think anyone who says they're concretely opposed to political violence believes that it exclusively means like fire bombing nurseries or abortion clinics or some really out there stuff like that that i obviously wouldn't support thanks so much last one jack attack lp thanks for your super chat they asked thoughts on the electoral college i know that you two disagree on this destiny i think still likes it well vosh thinks it's a tool by which republican states harm us um i don't want to do a whole bit of electoral college we'll both give our normal spills for it i think it's okay to slightly over represent smaller states because they get okay to keep states um represent or uh invested in like the ongoings of the union i don't think that california in and of itself should be able to rule the entire country or or like the california texas floater like the larger states with the larger share of electoral votes um i do think that votes should be given up proportionally like that's one change i would make that um just because you get 51 percent of the vote in a state um everybody should do like main in nebraska where you give it up proportionally based on the vote so at least like people would campaign in states like uh maybe places in california or whatever where it's worth uh you know getting some work a little vote for you um and then maybe i would change how you allot uh some of the electoral votes so maybe it's a little bit more equal like i think like isn't somebody in wyemings vote like eight times as much as someone is 4.2 is it 4.2 okay i don't know i feel pretty bad i would change a little bit of that a little bit maybe make it two two or three point whatever to one but um yeah overall i mean i'm okay with the idea of over-representing some smaller states just so that they're not completely totally ignored i know that some people said they're ignored now but i would say well they're ignored now because it's a win or take all situation so there's no point in campaigning in a lot of these states of all but that's my general yeah stand for the electoral college thank you i'm not really sold on the idea that the electoral college as it is now really convinces politicians to give more of a shit about folks and more rural states um i suppose it's it's difficult to tell exactly i know that they'll just campaign for example and and you know um battleground states uh uh you know nobody's going to go over to like vermont or or why oh that's because it's not a water proportional right right but but that's that's what i'm saying though it's difficult to tell how much of this is because of the electoral college and how much of it is because of each state's vote distribution there's currently some plan have you seen the cgp gray video on this because i didn't know about it there's some plan apparently where a bunch of states are assigning a compact together where um once uh once signed and once more than 50 percent of states total vote percentages agree to it they would assign all of their delegates to whoever wins the popular vote in a national election so once a number of states equal to 51 percent or more of the population have signed in on this um they'll just take wait for the national vote tally and whoever gets it they'll just all award there which is completely subverting the point of the electoral college but maybe is better because the way that the the way the delegates are disproportionately represented now is like really really weird and it creates a lot of perverse incentives where you can completely ignore some states and then spend a bunch of time on others but it also means that millions of people and their votes are left ignored in like states like california or texas where there are a lot of respectively conservative or liberal people um i don't know the system needs to change i guess they could move in a lot of directions thanks so much and with that want to say thanks so much folks for being with us i have put both of our guests links in the description box so go ahead check them out if you enjoyed listening to them today i really enjoyed it thanks so much guys it's been a true pleasure and as we have mentioned folks thanks for your super chats with which 100 will be going to charity to help try to stem the negative effects of coronavirus and so a huge thanks to steven and vosh for helping make that this kind of charity drive possible today it's been a great discussion gentlemen thanks for having me yeah i had a phenomenal time thank you so much with that keep sifting out the reasonable from the unreasonable take care folks and have a great rest of your day