 I'm looking for more communication and basically I need to learn how to talk about my project in ways that inspire and attract, you know, help. And you know, one of the first things I asked for when somebody asked if they could help me was help asking for help. So that's not exactly, you know, the kind of skill that I have and comfort. Yeah, it's a kind of a universal deficit. I don't know, there are people who are born, you know, like, like, you know, you know, I don't think it's universal. Exactly. I was talking earlier about, you know, the commodification of self and, you know, the branding of people and how I'm kind of allergic to it. And it's just, you know, it feels, what is that term? Creepy. Yeah. It's a good one. That's a good one. Yes. And I, the more I do my investigations, the more I think I should base it on the notion that the heart and mind are never truly separate. But there's a continuum, and you can have a distance between head and heart that makes us less human and the closer they are, it's typically more human. Yeah. Just quick context. I did, I wasn't in last week, but I watched the recording and your name came up. I don't think you were in either. I wasn't in. But your name came up in connection with a couple of things. There's this thing weaving the world. Have you heard of this? I have. Okay. Gary and locking on his name. You know, our, our Pete Kaminsky, Peter Kaminsky. Yeah, Pete mentioned, he said they were like these little subgroups. He mentioned a couple of little clusters, you're in one. And he said, you know, that's all in a way that's a, that's a hidden part of OGM. This is all the stuff that's going on, kind of beneath the surface. Yeah, it's absolutely fine to be hidden for me. We're talking about how the challenge it creates is, you know, they're, they're trying to manage just as you are. I mean, Jerry and others are trying to manage their interface to the non OGM world. And so what is your representation of OGM. When you do that. And is it an issue that there's this hidden stuff going on. It's not a question of it's it's secret it's a question of, it's hard to characterize. It's, you know, it's all it's part of the. What, what are we doing, you know, how do we express these things, you know, I'm sorry I have an annoying connection with the internet. I'm going to reboot and check back in but I let me try and ask you about the last, say, 17 seconds before I started talking what you said. So we started out with hidden and a challenge about representing oneself as perhaps an OGM or or part of an OGM movement or a hashtag. Yeah. So the part after that. Well, I was talking about representing OGM as an idea, or as a proposal or as a prospect, and that, that, you know, that was a challenge. You know, Jerry's talked about that challenge. Many times, and so that's what was the conversation was more about it wasn't like. It wasn't about, you know, how do we are we acknowledging or are we hiding or are we forgetting what's going on with Mark in the background. No, no, it was more like about, see there's lots going on there's lots going around in the foreground there's lots going on in the background. It's too much it's hard to express. You manage that kind of nozzle. I will take basically the behavior that I will go back and listen to the thing. Hi there. I have a unstable internet connection I'm going to reboot and rejoin. Bye. Good morning. Good morning. How is everyone. Honestly good. I don't know if you heard Jerry did you hear about to Bill Fenwick. I got, I got a note, and I hadn't heard before the note, but yeah. Yeah, we had a we had a kind of a memorial session of serious conversations last night. Oh, lovely. People shared, you know, their experiences of him. Yeah, it was, it was, I thought those kind of things can happen, especially when they're spontaneous and, you know, whoever shows up but I thought it, it worked pretty well. That's cool. He was a really interesting character. I mean, my intersections with him were few but really interesting, one of which was, I think he listened to a pitch by by one of sort of a couple of people named Sandy Klausner. This is a bill Fenwick is passed away of the law firm already here. Yeah. And so, so Sandy had invented a thing called cubicon which was a visual programming programming language that went like from soup to nuts, couldn't reinvent everything. And Fenwick very patiently heard him out offered advice, etc, etc. It was like real very men she, and this was clearly offroading. In other ways and I've forgotten how the how the event got set up but but he seemed really nice. So I didn't have that many other interactions with Fenwick other than being an audience with him or something like that or at some event. Do you want to say more about him, John. Well, wow. We had a long, you know, he was he was a kind of one of the founding members of serious conversations. Along with Doug, one of our wise elders, I mean we're all elders. Wiser, more elder elders and, you know, it was, it was, it was a lot to, a lot to digest in an interesting way he was very paced, he would, you know, he'd say, Well, you know, you, you, you're your mind when you first started hearing going, Oh, this is going to be one of these old stories about Kansas or something, you know, but then he would do this incredible we where he would, you know, go around the barn and go through the Constitution. And it's a fact that people who's not telling the truth, you know, and and how dire that is for our future and on and it was a, it was quite an experience actually to be in these sessions with him. Doug might have more to say about that because there were many, many interactions between them. I don't know. Doug, do you want to. I think he was an amazing person. Yeah, his humility coming out of a sharecropper background in the south. How we ever got to be Bill Fenwick is pretty amazing. And I also said, found myself saying last night that our society is pretty interesting if it allows a person like that to be successful. I say like that. Bill really was one of the most down to earth humble people you could imagine. He carried that sharecropper stuff with him with great dignity. It was an interesting evening because it led to reflection on what serious conversations was about where he was so supportive for a long time. One of the people said when they were talking is that if this was a normal conversation, I would have been interrupted. But part of serious conversations is that you let people finish what they're saying, but on correspondence to that, it means since you're going to be heard, you should keep what you say fairly short. And that was the core of what serious conversations actually did. I was loved it and was very supportive, brought me into Fenwick and West a few times to talk to the staff about that. Yeah, love that and so glad I didn't interrupt you in the middle of saying that Doug would have been would have been awkward. Although not to disrespect that at all but what's her name. That's what it sounds like. Sherry circle. Yeah, did a piece yesterday about about the cultural differences on interruptions. And coined a phrase that was something like collaborative interruption. I think about the dynamic of New York conversations are very different than the dynamic of, you know, the morning conversations. With disrespect with Doug saying I think the combination of listening to be fully heard and keeping what you say concise is lovely frame and navigate that maybe across different cultures. Culturally it varies wildly. There's some cultures where it's just like, actually, actually in Latin America. I don't know if this varies by country and in which countries, but very often if you're talking to somebody and they're not going, uh huh, yeah, got it. Uh huh, yep, yep, uh huh, back at you in the Spanish equivalents. It's as if they're not listening. So the little act back at different periods is culturally really significant and those are kind of little interruptions but but they're important. Related diversion I just saw. I'm sorry to reference for a sawpiece recently. And several have come across that are very critical of psychological psychological research, saying that most of what we're seeing is being done with white middle class American students in particular, you know, very narrow samples generalized very broadly to humanity. In ways they're probably not appropriate. And it's also like most scientific studies were performed on white men and like then like women were seldom the subject of studies. Medical medical study to and aside aside from the fact the experimental design itself is often shitty. Right, right. I think the framing him heart study is like all men or something like that I don't remember. They've broadened it over the years but originally yeah. Yeah, because it's like a longitudinal study that's like 40 years old something like that. That's a gold standard reference. Better for worse. Exactly. Well welcome everybody 1948 says my brain is when it started. So let's go about some checking of the ends. Doug do you want to check in. How about Doug Gil. It's a strange it's such a strange time. And I keep being in meetings where people are trying to avoid the strangest. And it's not working very well. We are always in the past when there has been a social calamity of some kind. The feeling that they would get through it and the world they would then be in was the familiar world they had left before the climate. That's not true with climate change. In fact, it looks like given the way things are, things will continue to change for the worse forever. And that means that the conditions for humans to get a foothold and make a culture are dwindling. So how do we handle that as as writers as consultants as family members. It's just not at all clear what to do. I find myself these days reading Arnold Toindy and his wonderful 13 volumes on the collapse of 28 civilizations and finding it extremely useful and extremely well written to my surprise. That's just one of the number of things. Anyway, that's enough for now. Thanks Doug. One of the many interesting questions I was in a really nice conversation with Ben Roberts yesterday. And he said one of the things he's running into a lot is that his, his friends people who he loves and who's who he works with are seen to be pretty evenly split. And I don't know if it's 5050 but but they're split with the following thing is like is capitalism fixable or not. If you think it is then you're trying to figure out how to fix it what to do etc etc and if you're not you're like well we absolutely positively need an alternate system. And how do we get there and that's it's a pretty big schism within people who are trying to fix things. Right, and it's a pretty straightforward question with all very hard answers. Yeah, I wasn't quite ready to check in but I want to respond to a couple of things Doug says. Yeah, the strangeness is there. And I noticed myself avoiding it as well as noticing other people avoiding it because it's so big. I think in part because it's not, you know, we talk about climate as the existential issue of our times but it's way worse than that. Because the whole stack is collapse and it's it's it's climate for sure it's pandemics not as the COVID pandemic but the pandemic era, in which we can expect to see more of this. We have a continued and adequate response. We have the massive disruption in ocean ecology. We have biodiversity collapse 70% of insect species gone in North America and you know start to think about the role of insects and ecosystems. And what does that work for 10 multi decadal mega drought in the West this is not a drought that we're in now it's something else than that. And so you know you go down the stack and you know health status of human beings relationship of all those things together it's you know it's it's an inter twinkle mess of potential great seriousness of a sort that people can't really grasp. And so Doug I think the avoidance is not just the avoidance on climate, but on the looming suspicion that things are deeply deeply unstable that kind of an ethical historic scale. We're in a time I think that will be written about 200 years ago as one of these historic transition moments in history. And so there's that I don't remember if I talked recently about the book beyond before European hegemony. I think you mentioned that yes. Yeah. It's a fascinating historical treatment of the, like 1250 1350 before the rise of Europe is dominant force in the West, and there was a global system there there was you know there's trade between Europe and India and China there's profound sophisticated global system of the sort that I sort of naively assumed wasn't there. And it's a real eye opener about the big sweeps of human history. And it's changed dramatically. How, you know, we think of ourselves as you know sort of much more sophisticated than the ancients and I ain't true. And profoundly for me is was not something she proposed. Well actually, she looked this in the 1980s and had a lot of insight about where we were going. And the deeper effect on me as a recognition or perception that the last 70 or 100 years that we've lived in, which is a world of modernity and progress and growing inclusion and internationalization and so forth is maybe a real anomaly in human history. And I recognize that I've lived my life assuming this trajectory of progress, the sort of the nature of things. And I'm now living more in a sense of the nature of things is, you know, it's a lot like that. And I don't know where we are on that curve so Doug I think that's part of the strangeness that's unspoken, almost anybody that's, you know, there's growing talk about climate but very little about the sort of a cascading to the whole thing. On the split on capitalism I'm very interesting to very interested to hear that from Ben. From his perspective, and I think that's there not deeply sophisticated in the world that I'm operating in there's a lot of attempts at various kinds of performing of capitalism. And maybe loosely under the title of stakeholder capitalism interestingly the, the book net positive just came out this week, Paul Pullman former CEO of Unilever and Winston, one of the sustainability speakers guys and their their advertising meme to lead the book launch is Milton Friedman is dead. He's still dead. Still dead, but it's not just that his ideas were wrong headed and we need to pass them a nice shocker. And so, you know, so the shift from the purpose of capitalism to maximize return to shareholders to the notion of the purpose of the businesses to do with the business is there to do and if it doesn't money is a shift that's rippling through the business world to some extent but my challenge to all this is that there are, there are structural defects in capitalism that none of these reform efforts address. Nobody is facing up to the structural, what I call the structural defects I'm happy to talk about that more at another point there's five that I've identified and I don't see, you know, I see people nibbling at some of them. One, which has to do with the, the sharing of value. Nobody talks about in 30 years of sustainability conferences I put it addressed once. And it's profound and it goes to the root and we've got the Pandora papers this year is another example of that story so I think the question of Jerry of how do we even take on that conversation is very important. I agree. Before I dive into the eight things that you popped up in my head. There's some, there's a digital artifact on your audio Gil that we're hearing a little like a little snap crackle pop going on. At first I thought it was your microphone rubbing against your clothes but it doesn't sound like that it sounds more digital. Let me, that's really weird because it was, I heard that report week I upgraded my zoom and it went away. Oh, it seems to be back and I don't. I'm not using your, your buds or anything like that you're just talking over your laptop right talking my laptop I've got a, I've got a backup drive connected let me pull that out. It sounds like some kind of artifact like it like a loose cable or Pete do you know how to, it sounds kind of like that yeah. Yeah, that's going to be inside my computer, which is what I want to hear possibly don't know. Maybe we can figure out a little more. More rhythmic or regular at a loose cable that that's kind of a character of it. I'm not touching the computer is it is it. Yeah, so going on. I pulled the drive so it's not that okay so I'm gonna have to take this exam. Well, we can figure out how to try to isolate or something anyway. It sounds a little bit like gated noise like something's making noise and something else is gating it actually that maybe. It's also unmuted I'm not sure if it's Doug. Doug if you'll mute and we'll see if this is fine everybody everybody except me mute let's see if it's still there. Yeah. Okay, how's it now still still present. Okay, I think it's related to when you speak there's something that's. Yeah, so there's the gain of my speech is something clipping it. Yeah, but I'm hearing it even when when kills not speaking. I think I think it's just your connection is somewhere funky and given that you're not using any gear that like you're just talking over your laptop that's so strange because I would be checking your microphones or cables or plugs or whatever. So it sounds like anyway, back to the content of what you said. At the start of what you're talking about it's like there's a whole bunch of assumptions that we make that life is getting so much more complicated now and I'm like, you know, you drop one of us back a couple, a couple centuries drop us somewhere in the world and we wouldn't survive for very long. And because what you had to know to stay alive was a lot life was like life has always been pretty complicated, I think, and then there's this trope about how humans are actually living much longer. And if you look at the stats kind of but like, you can find old people way back when it's just that things killed us off birth was very dangerous, like maternal mortality was high infant mortality was high. But once you made it to like 50 years old, you could cruise and there were, you know, they're finding lots of skeletons who were old so it's, there's this notion that that I guess because science hygiene etc. And so forth we're just extending human life forever. We have old people from way back when it's just that we've gotten better at keeping us alive. There's a bunch of stuff like that in the background. And then, and then what to do about the future I think is is a giant thorny hairball. And, you know, climate change, geoengineering, I read a good essay a couple days ago by a scientist who basically says hey look, I'm all about carbon capture but really we're probably going to need some large scale geoengineering to cause some some quicker changes and the unintended consequences of, of like, yanking on the geoengineering chain in some big way are completely frightening to me. Completely frightening, I think the assertion that it's that it's the only way out is very, very debatable. Yeah. Yeah. So, and what I would see that is, I see that the geoengineering story as an expression of that online but if you're only through this hammer, you tend to see all problems as nails. Yeah, except I'm hearing, I'm hearing votes for geoengineering from people who aren't otherwise like only got this hammer like, like it's not just, you know, people like that so and the problem with geoengineering is that you're experimenting on a global scale. You know, lots of other things you can experiment on a small scale and, and just to point out how these things go sideways really quickly. Mao Zedong's four pest campaign back during the Cultural Revolution in China. One of the pests was sparrows. So everybody in China went out and clapped and, you know, shoot the sparrows until the sparrows sort of all died. Sparrows in China and it turns out the sparrows were eating the insects. You get this huge uptick in insects who have no more predators really or fewer predators, and all of a sudden there's a famine. Yeah, millions of people die millions of people die from from a human created meme of, or command actually, hey let's go out and kill, you know, get rid of the sparrows insane. That was a good idea at the time. It's not the old story about parachuting cats in the Borneo and there's countless examples of that. In the British Raj in the early days the British Raj there were lots of cobras across India so the British put a bounty on cobras. They're like okay let's catch the cobras and it turns out people start raising cobras to cash in bounties. Of course. Yeah, exactly Pete is listing a bunch of them. And, and I'm actually worried, all of which have in common simplistic or mechanistic interventions of complex systems. And I'm getting worried every time I go outside and they don't get bothered by by bees and flies and every time I drive somewhere and I don't get bugs on the windshield I'm like, Oh, that seems really bad too. So anyway, anybody else want to chime in on the many crises and how to how to sort of settle in and approach them together. So let's say one of the thing about the geo engineering. It's another example of a simplistic intervention into complex systems number one. Number two, it's the way that the existing forces make money, because you know it's it's hard for back to help to make money on a class major approach to agriculture. And then it's much easier to make money on pouring megatons of concrete. So that structure is there and one of the, I think one of the great characteristics of capitalism is that it's phenomenally adaptive and can change without changing. And geo engineering is one of the number approaches to climate and say let's let's change and deal with this with this threat but with changing as little about our existing system and the causality that's given rise this as possible. So, let's go. Mark to to push back against the notion that discomfort is on expressed, I rather have seen it throughout my lifetime as discomfort from marginal populations is unheard. And it's also attempted to be silenced. Now, you know, this is not a victim narrative that I'm trying to promote. It's this, you know, what I have seen in the world. I believe that these messages have been here for a hell of a long time. I just don't know that they are being taken up and amplified in the capitalist media. And to build on that mark if you look back on lots of catastrophic events before the events there's generally a few people who are saying, this is going to happen, this is going to happen this is going to happen everybody hey, hey, hey, and nobody's going to examine them. And then, you know, and for some reason we don't go back and examine the Cassandra is very much at all. And they're lost in the wave of other things that people are saying or the other crisis that masked the coming crisis. So I have to ask if sense making includes making the sense of being ignored. I'm making the sense of being listened to and and and how to, you know, make a sense of populations around the world to be unsilenced. I think absolutely. Mark, you, I like how you call this marginalized populations because you talk to anybody in any of those and they'll say yeah of course, that's the reality with every day. You know, ranging from the critic saying you know Jerry I told I tell you this is going to happen, you know, to the mate in your hotel room who you never even see, even when she's there. The people of the swamps of Nigeria who basically have had their, their ancestral land poisoned by mobile shell. You know, it's just, it's a global thing that I would rather try to highlight that we have a system, which is making the sense and the communication of a gas prices. Rather than Indonesian peasants being thrown off their land whole cultures being silenced and forgotten because of it's so easy to drive a bulldozer into a place that has oil. I, you know, not sure how to look at that in a systems communication perspective. But I do know it's not, you know, it's not the kind of conceptual structures of john so and you know the types of systems thinkers that you get to until, you know, Barry commoner in the 70s and even the 40s the cybernetics. And the conferences are talking about this, but more in the 70s and basically how we just don't. We're not able to see or communicate clearly circular chains of logic and causation in ways that affect human behavior at a large scale. I don't have a solution. Mark when you say we are you talking about humans are you talking about the modern West. That's a good question. And the honest answers I don't know. Yeah, I don't know if, for example, how to say the extinction of the woolly mammoth, and the non extinction of the buffalo on the planes, until the white people came or, you know, sorry to sorry to use the label kind of label but you know until you know the advance of trains and guns. I want to invite us to be careful about the white people because the white people, the white people are, you know, Western European capitalist white people. And there's you know, you can probably find a lot of depth, you know, I mean, the African empires engaged in the slave trade of their own, you know, melanin, you know, huge people. So I just want to advise caution there. I agree completely I tried to eat back the word. Mess is good and you know, the Macy conferences were gold mine. American base book our own metaphors a great window into what you're talking about my absolute favorite book if I could pay some everybody $100 to read that book, I would. We'll take up a fun mark. But you know but the line goes back before that goes you know Rachel Carson in the early 60s and work in the 40s and Sir Albert Howard agricultural testament in what 1910 or 1900 or something like that which was the roots of organic agriculture, and back before that and then indigenous practice going back centuries and eons. So there are things that we've you know, what's that old line I've forgotten more than you'll ever know. There's that in our history you have we have experiences of living. The way that I'm thinking about it lately is, you know, trying to get away from this notion of managing nature better and being nicer to nature and some people say no we are nature. It's like how do we, how do we live as though we belong to the living world. I'd like to make a slight nudge. Yeah, we are careful about airtime and giving space for other voices. I'll be quiet. I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna throw something in the chat for future. You just muted yourself kill. I'm sorry I'm gonna throw something in the chat for future reference not for today. Thank you, Doug. You want to check in. Not after what I just said. I'd like to check in. Let me get you in just a second two things I wanted to add in one to what you said, one ironically the lawyer that actually cornered Chevron and won a case against Chevron for screwing up Nigeria is on has been under house arrest for two years. And like weird weird weird things are happening in that case. And then what what what ends up happening when people are not heard is you get tropes like defund the police. To me, defund the police is a natural response to attempts of police reform. There's there've been like generations, decades of attempts to fix how policing works that haven't worked. And so the latest thing is like let's just take away their budget so defund the police, which is a, and I think defund the police is a gold mine for the far right, they're like, Oh, awesome, they gave us a, they gave us a trope to go to go like light on fire, let's do that. This is a critical race theory, which is an academic discipline. It's like, hey, let's pull this thing out of the dark corners of academia, light it on fire in the public sphere and get all of our people pumped up. Right. And the right is really, really skilled at this deeply skilled at this at lighting in and at putting these fires and making sure that dumpster dumpster is hot enough and smoky enough that it's really hard to concentrate on other kinds of stuff that are actually more And as a database developer, I know how to automate this stuff so you can find the thing that's on fire to focus on. I mean, basically, this is what artificial intelligence and social networks have been able to give us is finding those toxic messages faster and making them more toxic. Hooray for software developers. Exciting. Okay, so let's go back to check in let's go mark Stacy. Michael. Hi, good morning, or at least good morning here. I've got great news. I had a test at lab core on Monday for my response to the booster of Moderna. And so I have not been yet exposed to the coronavirus by testing those antibodies, but my antibody response to the Moderna vaccine. Four weeks after the two shots was 36 per milliliter about six months after that right before the booster it was for per milliliter which is terrible, or at least, you know, they don't really know. But what they do know is my response that I got a couple days ago is over 2500 per milliliter which is as good as it gets so my B cells are back, baby. And, you know, living as a cancer survivor is a label that I'm not used to. And it's kind of not one I encourage. I would love to be at the Internet Archive a artist in residence but I wouldn't want to be called that. I just want to be that do that belong in that role. And that's kind of a direction that I'm choosing to investigate much more strongly. I thrive on the ability to speak and have the experience of speaking and listening to work out problems. And boy, have I not had that in, you know, the, you know, since 1984 attempting to work on the foundation. So I'm trying to be scientifically, mathematically of, of semiotics basically every thought is a sign every communication is a sign. What is a sign. How do signs work what is a digital sign. And so I'm starting to write this stuff up. Because I could have a long, long time ago but damn do I need to talk in order to write, or at least let me put it simply. I'm lazy. I can write it down. It's just such a pain in the ass that when I am able to engage and thank you. Pete and the talk with Mark and twan and, you know, every once in a while john and once with Julian and certainly a Gil Stacy Jerry Michael. Yeah, we gotta talk more. That is what I'm attempting to do. I'm going to write everything down that everybody says in order to say aha. Here is an utterance by a person at a particular time in a particular context, and how can I collect billions of these things and see how they interact. But how can I make that explanation so that I don't have to do this alone and I don't have to do this poor. I'm proud for that quest if I just may point out maybe frustrating a cell but, but I think that I think that is like top dead center for where we're aiming. Cancer is frustrating, you know, stopping smoking is frustrating, you know, there's a lot of. You'll go ahead. Talking is fine and they're, you know, it's getting automatically transcribed and maybe what we need to do is hire a modern Mary Catherine Bateson to take these OGM conferences and edit them into a series of artifacts. No, I've never seen that people. Thank you. It's a thing. I transcription external transcription is great and when he and I, when the Alfred and I do a lot of talking about that. There's no reason not to have people like co creating text while we're we're co creating speech. No reason in this day and age with the folks here who can do text. Oh, so I misread that I thought that was an I thought that was an opposite of that. It is that's like, I don't really agree. Okay, external transcription. It's, it's got its place. And Wendy Alfred is a virtuoso with taking clean text as she says and doing amazing stuff with it in a group like this. There's no reason for us to need a third party to be doing transcription. Let me, let me, let me clarify then the transcription otter does the transcription Mary Catherine Bateson may her, you know, make her soul travel travel well somebody who is smart and sensitive in the realms that we're talking about that could curate and edit and distill, you know, gorgeous readable text or Jerry. We can do that. We can do that instead of Otter and we can do that instead of Mary Bateson. And we should. And we're not because we're late. And let's do that. So that's my point is not how we do it but let's do that there is gold in these conversations it would be a great gift to many other people who are part of this. Yo, can you pick like a past conversation or maybe like each of us can pick, you know, because there's plenty of. There's plenty of content out there to one. I would I would bat that back to Jerry McCalluskey who knows what's where I've heard of this guy. So I would actually like to sort of soften the thing we just talked about and say hey, I would love to encourage anyone who feels in so moved to go take any point that we've been talking about and express it in any medium that is comfortable to them, and share it back in here so that we can weave it into the big fungus and lather rinse repeat. And if we do this a lot. One of us will turn out to be the Mary Catherine Bateson looking back 100 years from now. And it'll be a member of our community who stood up and started writing like sensible streams that we were a lot like that, that voice that that set of insights that set of connections that narrative string, through a series of things that we've stumbled across in our conversations that's the one Jerry who would like, who would like to be the patron. So I'm, so I think OGM is a container for it I think that weaving the world of the podcast that I'm that I'm starting is a is a is a vehicle for it exactly and I'm trying to find those people and create my own narrative through some of these things. And I've put out a bunch of basically brain screencasts or me talking head sort of things about some of the narratives I believe in and they're, they're on YouTube and you know they get like a couple dozen views. They're just sort of doing this together in different ways and then intersecting. And one of the experiments I'm really interested in in holding is, how do we write in a modular way so that you know, for me, a book is a playlist of chapters. And chapters are sort of playlists of nuggets of ideas that are strung together in a way that makes pretty continuous sense as as serial prose. Could we leave our books in places like GitHub so that my chapter three becomes your chapter six, and then Pete's chapter two becomes your chapter five and then you write chapters one through four, and then append a conclusion and you write a book and we all publish a book that have these overlapping narratives where we start to agree on what some of these nuggets are and we've like, it would be really interesting to publish 20 simultaneous books by simultaneous I mean within the same two year period let's call it. But it'd be really interesting to write 20 simultaneous books that that lean on the same ideas and build together but take different perspectives represent different audiences different affected parties. Invite in other people to look through this this series of nuggets and compose their own. However, that might be I think that would be like super interesting and and a woven community set of books where the books are just souvenir artifacts where in fact the stuff is happening in in the fungus in the context that we're all sort of feeding off of and nourishing could get attention. I don't know. I'm interested in that that's kind of that's a place where I think I'm trying to head. The question is who else is interested and who else wants to do this I mean, I don't I don't know who else wants to take visual notes of meetings like this. Right, I do. I'm busy feeding my brain along the way, and I don't know who else is compelled to do so. And I'm looking for those people. I'm just really eager to find those people and then to take notes with them. Do they need to be compelled to do so or could they be hired to do so motivated personally motivated and I'd be fine finding funds for them that's that's no problem with that but if they don't have an intrinsic like like impulse to do it. I think hiring them and trying to describe what the thing is is hard and not as not nearly as fruitful as somebody with a passion and the and the talent. I think there are a lot of people who have those skills would love to do that but it's a big it's a big ask we're asking that. Actually, I think we you know the old joke how do you eat an elephant. Right, one bite at a time. But we just take a bite and take a tiny bite and then if the bite is good and tasty like take more bites and bring some other people in and teach them how to eat that way or whatever it is I don't know. But but I have a feeling that one of the things that's lying right in front of us is to help reinvent how media works and how it's used in the world because we're still stuck in a world of books and we're still in these longs that are protected and intellectual property over protection and a bunch of other stuff we're not actually using humans idea as well. And many of us have blogs and stuff like that Doug just posted his substack pub in the chat like like that's a good good start, we've got opinions out there anyone else want to throw in on this. Yeah, I'll use it as my check in. said a few times that I'm really interested in the post-production part and this is actually why. I'm kind of hoping that it will be a vehicle to try out new things in terms of engagement and to Mark's point, I think working with other people at the same time is really helpful, at least for some of us. I mean I can remember writing entire papers just sitting across, we actually wrote every single word together you know it was like finishing sentences or the next sentence and that was so productive it was just like flowing. On a separate note though I also want to say because it came up with the thing about capitalism because something I was thinking about a lot this morning is I'd love to hear a conversation from people that understand more about this whole new thing about like Main Street investing like there's an app and you know I look into some of the projects that are on it where they're trying to you know they're trying to collect from the community so that it goes back into the community and I see so many young people you know investing like you know a few hundred dollars here and there and I'm just wondering I'd like to hear from people that have a little bit more knowledge about what they think of that you know at some point. That's it. Thanks Stacy. Anyone want to offer thoughts on that? Good. Let's go Michael John Mark. Hello. On the subject of the right being really good at finding things like the police and the police here etc. I just wanted my reaction was boy you know you know the left is really You just broke up on us Michael. Knows that outrage. Oh sorry. Right at the good words too. That's the words we wanted to hear. Journalists you know good journalists well I won't say good journalists but journalists who know where which side their bread is buttered on right now and you know we're talking clicks know that outrage is a draw and the amount of ink slash pixels expended on inconsequential actions by Donald Trump now or you know this outrageous behavior by this one person you know doing something on a street in the deep south you know that playing that to the coastal left is going to get you clicks and it's one of the big things that is wrong with the algorithmic feed that you know that knows that outrage gets clicks and how to defuse that I mean you know I think I think not having algorithmic feeds or not having externally controlled algorithmic feeds and not having advertising supported engagement driven media as our source of information is a big part of that but boy the the whole the whole cycle of whatever you click on whatever people click on in general a lot of humans you know Pete to your to your look comment and the the thread you know some humans are really bad about clicking on stuff that outrages them and making sure that there is a lot more outrage porn out there for all of us and yes yes Gil journalists um is is very true I don't know if that's your coinage but it it's good yeah and um when we click we vote and and everybody has to realize that you know there you know when we click on stuff there is going to be more of it and I notice in my Apple news feed that Vanity Fair you know which is not really known for their political you know minute by minute commentary has gotten in the habit of putting up these you know clickbaity snarky bits about the latest thing that Giuliani has done or a you know a Trump family member and it is it's it's very difficult not to click on and the more you do the more of that there is and the more outrage you know I don't know what the what the fuel is in outrage for for all of us I don't think any of us are immune to it you know that discovering something awful that somebody did makes me better for knowing you know I'm more righteous because I know how wrong they are and engagement you know attention selling and engagement you know surveillance capitalism attention economy whatever you want to call it defusing that as a big part of it but that's something that's driving it and driving division and I I think to point fingers at the right for doing it you know Fox got really good at it maybe sooner than MSNBC did but you know I will not accept that that in some ways you know Rachel Maddow is even better at it than Sean Hannity because it's a little less transparent and you know Huffington Post is great at it and Vanity Fair is great at it and it's it's over sorry end of rant not really a check-in just a point um that sounded very check-in-y that's that sounded very check-in-y it was good okay yeah all right uh hold on I'm just chatting something I didn't want to lose that in my brain let's go John Mark Julian okay so I'm this is I'm going to focus on in a way on post-production and in a way on different metaphors different organizational frameworks beyond the ones we're talking about and I'll I'll mention two in the 80s I taught something called information mapping which is Bob Horn's work probably you know Jerry knows it well probably a bunch of you know well not a what what are now a kind of a lot of obvious sounding ideas about advanced organizers and labels um you know good stuff it's it's had its life and it's gotten in subsumed and it doesn't really directly translate into the land of clickability but I think there's a potential particularly for a podcast or use of an advanced organizer as a as an intro outro more of an intro than an outro and I have this I have an audio vision let's say okay and the audio vision of the is of the an opposite gender voice stating the label for the next chunk of speech just before it begins so you know you you you produce this thing and you okay you see where this is going and someone looks at it and they say oh well that's actually the the summary isn't there that's actually the you know or it's a question it's a question that the the podcast text answers so an opposite gender voice if the podcaster is male the opposite gender voice would be female does this does the audio soft version of the audio question just before the audio voice continues I this is all in my imagination I haven't done this you know but I'm not just it just sounds to me like something interesting I would like to explore as a way to tune up the podcast model because there's so many podcasts that you got to do something to distinguish it and did you ask a question Jerry before I was just going to say that trying to create an environment where lots of experiments like what you just described can take place is a good thing and I think that like trying trying out different modes and I'm remembering an old piece of Apple software I thought it was an Apple project where some story would be being told there was a narrative going on and there were three avatar heads basically at the side of the screen that represented three different kinds of characters and they would kind of there were your guides and they would hold up their hand kind of virtually when they thought they had something that was relevant to say to the to the present narrative and then if you click if you clicked on them if you chose to follow their hand raised they would then say well here's here's my view on what's happening right here and it was kind of a hyper texty kind of thing I don't remember what the name of the project was but it but it was one such experiment long ago yeah well that's just something to play with in the future perhaps and a related thing I cannot do the I can't do a satisfying job of the real time I can I can take notes I can take notes that are a summary but I'm not really capturing things about the structure that I of what's happening I need to sort of step back and digest and for several years I was part of a project where we really stepped back and we really had a team and we really drilled down on interview results and we because we had this this condition we said we're going to go interview people we're not going to publish that we will have the notes for ourselves we're not going to publish the notes what we're going to do is we're going to translate the notes into newspaper stories from the future if the person we're interviewing is correct and if the person we're interviewing is completely wrong and that was a you know that was an interesting discipline you know you'd have to put some good heads together and you'd have to really crank but you know and so there's a couple of days of work but then you'd wind up with this wall you do you do 15 20 interviews four or five days of work of team of three and now you have a wall with 150 newspaper stories on it each newspaper story five to seven words two sentences and a date a date right on the edge of plausibility now that was going towards towards the particular goal it was going towards bottoms up interactive scenarios you wouldn't keep all those conditions you know you'd keep the things that work like make it short make it modular you don't need the date i mean you might need the date you might even know but the whole point i'm making is you put a couple of minds together and they look at a a discursive thing you know a thing that happened an event a flow and they and then you and then you ask the question if some of these people who are speaking are correct what does the newspaper look like what are five newspaper headlines for five years from now if some of these people are speaking are completely wrong what are five newspaper headlines for five years from now is that an interesting um addition does that actually add value to the to the thing i don't know you know you have to do the experiment and see i'm kind of curious about what it will look like but in the same vein i wonder whether you know the apocalyptic science and climate fiction movies for example do they just dull us or do they help light this thing up so you know if there's going to be a tidal wave over Manhattan and we'll all be living underwater that movie got done it didn't seem to wake us up so so like like really what's it gonna what what's it gonna take if i can there's a there is an answer from our experience we we developed when we're doing this it's it's called future mapping when we're doing it with two different companies we had some rules we said no kidnapping bill gates and that was just a metaphor i mean no no unless no killing baby healer unless FEMA is the client no earthquakes no tidal waves and then we had the the opposite when he said no Santa Claus events you know where it's something just oh magical new technology provides no no no it doesn't work and instead we went the other direction we said who's the client who's the person acting or not acting in this space who are they let's let's have them be the actor or they're the person they're afraid of be the actor their competitor so or we could say company x and then they can answer the question are you company x or somebody else we'd say company x had a fire in their battery plant so it's not the tidal wave it's the whoops oh yeah batteries are you know and it's these these little you know these little incremental whoops things but concatenated together and then you say oh oh okay um yeah you know so you for instance you'd write uh sat and geoengineering satellite um you know data from geoengineering satellite strongly conflicts you know science plans or something i don't know you know but see it this is what you want you do not want geoengineering satellite uh focuses sunlight and incinerates town you know that's you don't want that i'm just earth killing uh tucker carlson yeah right yeah i mean that's that people go ah you know that you get that you get the rubber necking effect because oh i want to read that it's like clickability you know but then they say oh well glad that's not going to happen creativity shuts off what you want is oh oh that that could happen and that would have both positive and negative effects hmm you know so you want it you want to mobilize the the drama completion part of the brains of the people who are experiencing it they then have to go ahead and do something with it thank you um doug we you had your hand up a little earlier than we i we ripped on by do you want to jump in for a sec and i i'll come back in later okay cool so let's go um mark julian pete and i'm still here i just have to shift yeah good morning everyone um my my checking is um i'm super excited to announce that my um amazon project nativian has been selected as one of uh 15 top innovation by the world economic forum and the one trillion tree challenge so now i didn't expect that was that about my my checking that's all i wanted to share well i've been listening to everybody everybody's um contribution today could you link to that please mark sure here we go forgot to press that um yeah to to to what uh was listening to what you were saying you know about um geoengineering and you know biodiversity and all this good stuff it's it really feels like always we always throwing something um in front of us and and trying to catch it like little dogs you know um looking at solutions that do not exist today but betting that they will be in place at the right time might be desperately need them and it's it's um it's always something that i've been struggling with um but you know we've seen we've seen so many of these before mark can you just grab a little bit more of the towing trees project and how what you're doing fits and just to give us a little more texture again yes of course um so you know this is a um um UN decade for united nation decade for um restoring and protecting biodiversity so um to my surprise um the world economic forum has been looking at these and um one of their um i think i think really important um criterion to to to select projects must include indigenous people at at the table and um so that's that's the the the surprise part so my project itself is um to and it aims at preserving um and reviving traditional knowledge around medicinal plants by the way not only to keep um traditional knowledge relevant but also to offer a model for which it is we add values throughout the the process and we put indigenous people basically now in a position to assess their traditional knowledge in a modern context so it comes with you know of course products um but also uh um learning exchange and and creativity in terms of what do you want to do with that um so it's based in Ecuador um and mostly working with kishua communities which um have uh designed a a living plan and in which they want to ban all extractive economies and develop a forest base bioeconomy that comes and and fits into into this living plan it's called um um cross accessia which means the living forest um do you have any links to it etc i i just posted the link okay and also posting the announcement right there yeah some part of 15 other organizations we had the first call this morning to get to know each other very very exciting there is um amazon 4.0 with uh carlos and ismail nobree probably some of you have heard before let's sort of get you know an effort to value the amazon outside the extractive industries sounds sounds great um and you're reminding me of where this conversation kind of started and the power dynamics of what got us here between the the huge narratives in our heads and the the the punctuated equilibrium of changes and just how uh how some companies basically have dictated so much of what happens around the world i mean uh there's a whole story about bananas and the banana king uh in central america and the great white fleet and all of that and uh there's a whole story about oil in western africa and all that and then you can just sort of somebody who doesn't need to know a lot of history can just drop around the world and talk about just like brutal brutal crises worldwide uh because resources right and then every time every time i pass a a banana republic store and i used to get banana republic when it was a paper catalog of surplus goods and i think i bought like a pair of old gurka shorts from them long ago and then every time i pass the the store i flinch a little bit because you know we called them banana republics because we turned them into banana republics like single source countries really great right for whose benefit not theirs not theirs at all anyway sorry to to be a little dark and gloomy but i am in the dark forest now so it seems to fit um anyone else with thoughts about this it's it's it's just different uh than the uh one trillion tree or the one you posted the three and three campaign yep this one is a one trillion tree challenge and i posted the link yes in fact in fact the one t.org is under the link that i sent in my brain so they're they're kind of connected yeah and i think and i had to look around to figure out wait is this different initiatives are they connected and i think they're sort of connected uh and the thing i don't get enough feedback on is hey this thing you've got on your brain is actually backwards or upside down and doesn't work that way so if i got it wrong let me know yeah yeah i mean for for me really what's what's the the learning i really didn't expect to be selected to be honest and and mostly because it's a indigenous led initiative it's not something that comes you know from um well known and quote unquote respectable people and and i was quite surprised to hear that um you know they really want to um to work with indigenous communities around around you know preserving their resources and the culture and and um the system that has systemed them for for thousands of years so it's um it's both exciting and at the same time a little bit scary i bet it sounds good dr did you want to jump in yeah i think listening to the whole conversation this morning i find myself thinking given human nature with our randiness and our intelligence that it was inevitable we were going to end up in this stuck place with an over population and too much technology and now that we're here there's no way out it was inevitable and we're here and there's no way out thought so i'm just going to order a good lunch with my device and keep keep looking for olympic rewards that's a surprising surprising assessment from a futurist and a scenarist well it is a future scenario it is well it's a future scenario yeah well of course i have other scenarios in mind yeah uh but i think the fact that that was inevitable that we were going to create a too complex society with too many people dependent on fossil fuels what if there was actually there was no way to get off that track um and i'm not sure that fossil like there was a point early in the automobile where cars were going to be electric and then we discovered oil in pennsylvania and then a bunch of other things happened behind some curtains i don't i'm not privy to but we ended up with internal combustion engines as the the way for locomotion which is now and this could have been just a long detour that screwed up the earth in a thousand ways and now we seem to be going back to batteries right well at that time fossil fuels offered much greater energy densities than anything electricity could must i'm not i'm not so sure no no really because batteries battery technology hasn't improved like like the old lead acid battery was really pretty pretty darn good and has been around forever and electric motors have been pretty good we've gotten much better at micro motors we've gotten much better at motor technology but motors but once once we started figuring motors out motors are good and like a car that's electric has many fewer moving parts is much simpler it was a bunch of other good things so we so we got the story about how fossil fossil fuels kicked out public transportation in the 1940s it'd be interesting to see if there were similar moves in the early part of the century i'm just talking about i don't know so in the litany of bad corporate stories that i was talking earlier i was i would then add the great american streetcar conspiracy which is the story behind what you just said and for whoever for whoever doesn't know that uh the the movie who framed roger rabbit is actually based on facts gem of a movie it's a fabulous movie it's just like a artistic and everything it's really it's also a great example of how the left might communicate more effectively than the right not by trying to emulate shawn hannity but by doing something really imaginative creative and engaging of humans in a way that movie was right um let's go julian pete than me oh and i think julian just stepped away julian's back now i clicked the wrong button oh you clicked the wrong button okay good and you're not wearing your ipad so that's good yeah um as elucidation i witnessed the call last week because at eight o'clock last Thursday i was having my eyes sliced open and i can tell you it is such a joy to be able to see with two eyes again not these colored blobs that were coming in it's a magnificent it's almost like i'm 20 mark i love this project of more trees i've been doing my own part here in my little plot of palo Alto it but more trees more trees um my check in is that i'm in the middle of i have three conferences coming up so i'm the middle of trying to revise all my software consequently everything is broken at the moment i've been wrestling with unity and neo4j for some time but it should all be done back together within two weeks which is my deadline the third conference so it's pretty nice it's in pizza and never been to italy uh the trouble is it's 2021 and i should say the server is in pizza i'll be attending from my desk as usual so that's the extent of my checking is that i'm rebuilding software and would have something to show again within two weeks sweet um mr frisky um thank you jerry and thank you all um uh we've had some great conversations in massive wiki wednesdays for what it's worth uh tuesdays at five p.m pacific and monday's or sorry wednesdays at nine a.m pacific um find the times in the massive wiki channel uh if you get marcaranza and wendy elford uh and and or bill anderson chatting about the philosophy of information and thought and something like that it's a trip total trip um i wanted the the main thing i wanted to talk about today was actually something i posted in off topic channel it's an interview with alan k from 2017 um and i think most of the most of the folks in ogm would would find this really interesting um uh the the headline is that he's you know so alan k uh inventor of the dino book what do you think of the iphone um or the ipad and that's you know that's it's interesting to hear what you think you would hear from alan k the the more important part of that interview is him talking about education um and how steve jobs uh got distracted by the shiny object that is consumer products rather than bicycle for the mind um uh and so hearing him talk again about education and how people learn or don't um and what we have settled for uh with especially our mobile devices we've got little tvs rather than than bicycles for the mind um it's really affective for me um and one of the things he says is that things like reading and writing are technological inventions he talks about 20 human and universals things things like technology is like reading and writing or agriculture are things we invented and actually bootstrap us up out of being the people before we had agriculture or reading and writing um and uh we don't do a good job of shepherding uh the use of those technologies we don't teach them to our kids we teach our kids to be uh we to have learned helplessness um and like us we all all of us have learned helplessness when we're trying to think about stuff or reason about stuff or augment our intelligence together um so i think i can make a little segue to my rant uh with uh with with gill uh in the chat and and so i guess i want to say what i said in chat um in speech too that i i really do feel like um and we've been doing it for a long time uh we get cozy in talking here and we don't digest our material we don't do stuff with the wonderful amazing brilliant insights and thinking that we have um we spool them off onto youtube um or even onto otter or even onto the aws machine transcriptions i used to build and you know they kind of like just settle like like dust or something like that um the metaphor i came up with with gill it's a lot like watching a bunch of kids playing um legos or dinosaurs or uh tea sets and and and dolls in the in the living room and then the kids are done with their play time and it's like they get up and leave and all the toys and stuff is scattered all over the place um we don't we don't do a good job of uh and and expecting the adults to pick it up like oh you know when i was three mom used to pick up my stuff i used to make a mess and mom picked it up now i'm six now i'm eight you know i'm just gonna leave i don't i don't have responsibility over the things that i've kind of spewed into the into the space you know um it feels a lot like that to me and and i apologize for for sounding frustrated and and maybe a little harsh um and and maybe i don't apologize um uh we've we've had so many we've mined so much gold here um or we've mined so much ore uh and we see the little uh glimpse of of gold metal and we don't do anything with it um and and you know it's it's not true we do a little bit of work here and there and you know we've built a little bit of stuff but not as much as we could have and we don't need uh a third party expert um or genius to do that work that's like asking mom to do the work um we can do it ourselves we have to slow down a little bit we have to have different modalities where we have playtime and then the cleaning up time but just like when you were a little kid and you got this revelation oh you mean i can make a mess and then i can switch into a new phase where i clean the mass and the cleaning is actually kind of fun too the organizing is kind of fun too it's a different kind of creativity or it's a different kind of more drudgery than not but it's it's productive and valuable and look how clean my my living room look at the toy box when i'm done i have all these wonderful things organized rather than not organized and scattered all over the place um a brief comment then then i'll pass it to you gil um i'm not fond of the waiting for mom analogy much at all uh but i just want to ask in sort of the the generative spirit like so and i think i can i can answer this myself too but what things do you wish we had done by now like what what things should we have accomplished um um so we we we bubble up um you know we bubble up 20 or 30 topics a call we never have a call where we dig into one of those and produce a podcast so thanks jerry for coming up with weaving the world and i hope weaving the world does that um uh that's that's an example right another example is um i i don't i don't know that well so i would do this every call we wouldn't have to do this every call but we could have some calls where instead of like floating the whole call in this dreamy reverie where we're either happy about things or sad about things or frustrated about things or hopeful about things or scared to death of the future um if we slowed down and built artifacts together while we were talking let's draw let's write something anything if we had it doesn't have to be every call but if we did that you know every third call every fifth call every tenth call and we've got this so i it would be interesting jerry and i don't think we should take the time on this call to to talk about the the mom analogy and i i think in my mind i was wondering if it's mom or parent or dad or what you know the the gender of that person is kind of interesting but but we do have this i wish somebody would clean up our mess for us i wish somebody would organize our things i wish somebody would like uh do a visual um you know uh visual note-taking of our of our sessions it's not rocket science folks it's just practice um and just because i can't make music like billie eilish dan fingan her brother doesn't mean that i can't make music that's good and it doesn't mean that i should should spend my days i you know so i do this a lot um right in front of me i got this beautiful mini keyboard and i've got an ipad over here that's got every musical sound i could ever ever want to make and about a thousand times as many um i spent a lot of time going it's frustrating you know when i blink around it sometimes it sounds good and it sometimes it sounds bad i you know like get off you get let's get off our butts and actually do it um if we started drawing stuff would it hurt us so much if we started taking writing uh an essay together would it hurt so much i don't think so and and even if it's never as good as uh mary bateson it's going to be something and we will have learned to do it ourselves and we will level up rather than continuing to be the kids in the living room um um stacey then gill then me if i can just respond here uh well mark if you'll go after stacey uh just for a sec because stacey think i catch almost almost lost my train of thought yeah um okay so to a pete saying i'm mark um so one of my biggest challenges is i just don't know how to do some of this stuff and i'm wondering if it might be worthwhile for all of as a group activity to bring in a teacher somebody that actually does this all the time that maybe teaches media and we workshop it together because i think it would be fun to do and it would be a learning experience and i can't be the only person that doesn't know what to do maybe just the only person in this group i can do the things that i just talked about um and i've done them with people on calls and i do them all the time so i i'm in favor of bringing in people better than me i'm in favor no you would be great but literally you know two hours a week i'm sitting around on massive wiki wednesday balls either doing this kind of stuff or not doing it because nobody cares nobody nobody shows up i'm happy i'm happy to schedule i you know let's let's do it let's pick a time and do it i love teaching i love showing off how to do stuff i suck at everything i do i'm an amateur at everything i do so i don't think that i'm brilliant at it but i'm certainly willing to to draw with people on an ipad on zoom i'm certainly willing to bring up uh an essay a place to write essays um we we actually try different experiments of let's have everybody working on the same computer let's have everybody working on different computers on the same text uh we we we do that all the time or we can do that all the time and i would love to do more of it i would totally love to do more of it let's let's pick some times and do it yeah i would love that and just to be clear like whenever i hear you say massive wiki i have no idea what that is i have no idea if i if i should show up and see what's going on or i just totally fair uh totally fair um fair and and if you sometimes if you think well i you know we get into different discussions on massive wiki sometimes it's a very technical thing about how you build nuts and bolts of bites and stuff like that um uh so maybe well i i would love to schedule more time together let's essay together let's draw together let's think visually together um and i'm happy to call those things like uh an accomplishment rather than a technology you're totally right uh the massive wiki wednesday is named after technology that's actually not what we do there usually um i mean it's related to the technology but we do fenced off it's it's uh craft time more than more than that who just shared the elephant image that was me oh thanks julian appreciate that it was the elephant in the room i was just wondering who was sharing the image thanks for doing that it was because of what you earlier the old phrase about biting the elephant and stacey saying you know there's all the stuff you don't know how to do i mean yeah yeah um so let's go mark gil me and mark you just frozen on us it's the internet gremlins that detected you were about to say something brilliant they're like nope nope not happening the internet has been dropping out so you're back darn new sonic.net or euro or god knows what but anyway um so the internet archive has gone from this focus of bits in how can we archive everything because nobody else is doing it and now the focus is bits out and i'm stuck in bits out um yeah i'm in the bits out team um okay i'm losing connection somebody speak and i'll hear it um yes can you hear us yes okay sound normal to me okay um mark mark i don't know what bits out means can you say bits out is um taking the digital objects the digital things within the archive and making them presentable how do you find the 1978 hillbilly music that you're really into um how do you download it in a way that's useful to you how do you read an online book um yeah thanks Pete output um and i think that the focus should be on bits through um brought up um michael polgani's personal knowledge notion that michael and and pete and some of us know that all knowledge is personal it has to go through you know the stuff in that skull to actually be knowledge but then there's the opposite limit case that all knowledge is social or at least some knowledge is social so basically um i salute pete and i basically just want to point out hey um take a notepad and write down the things you hear and the things you uh convert that that pop up for you and post them on the um thing that has matter most which is called csc in the ogm channel um like i do um and i'd love to know if anybody bothers to read the stuff that i write writing down the things that people say in these meetings but i don't care i just do it because i heard this wonderful term it's my lifestyle which i actually disagree with it's an experiment i would rather have someone else do but i'm doing it because i don't see it being done by anybody and i'm happy to share it done thanks mark gill and me yeah several comments which may turn into my check-in after all um julian great elephant i'd love to see it animated so we can know that the elephant can actually get eaten that'll be fun um but pete come in scale i love you man i really do i love the way your mind works i love your generosity of spirit and thank you on the on the mom metaphor i want to play with that a little bit i i get what you're saying i get the value that you're saying in marcia you echo that um i don't have time in my life i think my my interpretation is i don't have time in my life to do that uh and i think about on the one hand you know writers who rent a hotel room and just live there for a while to finish their book or go to a writer's retreat where somebody else is taking taking care of meals and cleaning up the dishes and cleaning up the living room and they just write and walk by the beach and do whatever they do um um and i you know i resonate with that metaphor because i'm looking at how do i do the the creativity and production that we're talking about here while also earning a living doing other things and being carried over to chain and so forth so i i feel generally overwhelmed all the time and behind all the time on the things that i want to do on the other hand you know i think about um i think about the renaissance painters who went out and gathered their own pigments and ground their own paint and that was part of the complete process of creating a painting for them it wasn't just like something else that was in the way of the painting it was part of it uh there's a gorgeous piece about lori anderson the new york times this weekend and people have seen it but one of the things she does after like what 50 years of doing these immersive performances filled with electronic gadgetry and projection gadgetry and so forth just a giant trunk that she lugs around with her everywhere she performs in the world and she insists on doing all of her own setup and tear down no roadies it's part of the work for her so pete i hear that in what you're saying and i like it a lot i the richness of it uh is you know deeply resonant for me and i'm living in this challenge of feeling behind all the time um you know got to bring in the billables and i don't even have time to go read matter most after these things much less post all of my cooking's to it i'm i'm you know sort of catching stuff on the fly and obsidian which is my new play space for the stuff but i observed that even there i'm not doing the the end of the day or every week go out and read the garden which is part of the work of being a gardener so that all said i love your idea of the experiment let's do what you said maybe once a month a dedicated session to that maybe once a month and see what that's like and then we can increase the rhythm decrease it change it but i like the experiment so thank you pete and me thanks gal um my my reflection is you don't have time not to do it we don't have time not to do it um it's it's kind of the zen thing right uh like um we generate so much stuff that falls and doesn't do anything if we generated one thing and did it really well we'd be ahead we you know after a year and a half of doing this we'd have something rather than a bunch of dust on the floor we have to do it and we have to get better at it and i i totally get it i i feel crushed and and you know weighted down by like lots of stuff i think part of that is that it's uh it's it's a lot like when your parents said you know if you play with your toys and then you organize your toys after you play with your toys the next time you want to play with your toys you'll be able to play with them you'll be able to find a dollar the dinosaurs or the dollies instead of like they're scattered all over the place it's kind of the same thing you come you know you where it's kind of a zen thing you know um uh before enlightenment after enlightenment you know um uh or it's it's like like eating uh the these calls feel to me like high sugar diet you know and we're not any we don't ever eat any vegetables we don't ever like process any nutrients we don't you know we don't like there's it doesn't happen um so we're we're on this constant sugar rush rather than having a nutritious balanced diet that lets us evolve as a group brain and um and actually like articulate ourselves to the world rather than kind of always having this fuzzy fuzzy like dream state going on so i i think we have to do it i don't i don't i don't think it's and you know and and if there aren't enough hours in the week and maybe that's true um uh then then what you do is you do a balanced diet of stuff instead of all the fuzzy fuzzy sugar stuff and nothing else you say well i can have a little bit of sugar and then i can have a little bit of protein and i can have a little bit of vegetables and stuff like that um and i think that's what we should do on these calls um over time and once a month would be great um it would be better than never um michael then me and then we gotta sort of wrap our calls um i just wanted to start turning off my videos so that sounds better thank you um the the uh picking up on what you're saying pete and the um the playroom uh metaphor i feel like we get together we play with our toys and we actually do put them back in the like big bin and then we take a picture of it and post it on youtube and that's the extent of our sharing you know the the recorded video is there to remind us but it's not really something that somebody outside the group can really find and derive the value from and um part of if we want to use the toy chest metaphor you know part of it is not just like putting away your toys but organizing and labeling your toys and and individually you know posting them sharing them in a findable way because you've tagged them a lot and you know i know i'm going from metaphor to literal but um but that i i feel like we need to figure out ways to get more granular and and i caught myself just now using the figure out word term which i like i i've pinned on us before you know i've i've poked you jerry with it sometimes you know we're where it's we're in a constant strict state of trying to figure out what we're going to become and do and to be able to say i don't know what we're going to become and do but we discussed this one thing um and here it is it's it's findable it's it's granularized um i'm not saying i know exactly how to do it but we certainly have to record in a way that that allows for that feel like thank you um all right i've been taking notes in the in the chat um so this is a slow journey and it's frustrating and i am frustrated too and i appreciate your expressions um well the way that this podcasty thing and the big fungus are showing up is informed by all of our frustrations here and everything we just said so the idea is that there are episodes of a show and it's like oh great but then there are post episodes of the show where we slow down pay attention to what katsad distill it connect it put it in put it into the big fungus whatever the hell that means and we need to know better what the big fungus is other than it's a couple of github repos and some videos that are posted under open license on youtube and there's this brain object sort of sitting out there so so i think that that i'm like i've been listening and learning and i've been learning a tremendous amount from from all of our calls together and the thing i think we're building keeps shape-shifting in front of me and so my my articulation of weaving the world and the big fungus are as close as i've gotten to some fruitful process that will get us to do a lot of other things that we're talking about but then um that my mo here is to float ideas and see who likes them and catches them and goes and does something so a very long time ago uh max harper took one of our transcripts one of our automatic transcripts of the calls mapped it in mirro and you could see how the dialogue worked and did that once and hasn't really uh stepped back into the conversation here very much uh but that was really really interesting uh kiko lab as it was going going hot was doing a lot of post processing and a lot of gratitude work and a lot of other kinds of stuff post processing you know trying to mine what did you know what had happened on the calls and Charles was on me to make sure that i took the transcript files and all the other files and put them someplace where they were handy but then kiko lab got you know hit a road bump and nobody else sort of picked up those those pieces of the work um along the way um i'm always and and i'm realizing this just during this call so these are my notes right now during this call i've got six open tabs of stuff that my machine is not fast enough to catch up for me to to go do but i've got michael polanyi and our own metaphors which i've never read and now might have to go read in the framing ham heart study and the killer sparrow campaign and the idea of hyper objects which we didn't even talk about but we were kind of talking about and cooperative overlapping which i put in and bob horn and bill fenwick which is where we started this call i'm i'm doing this so whenever mark coranza or i are in a conversation for free the conversation gets this annoying habit we have of taking personal notes and putting them there and mark yours are sort of for your for you but mine are for the world and i'm i have two audiences in mind i have do i want to remember this and i have hey i post this in the world i want to make this useful and then i'm stuck in this goddamn proprietary software which i still really like but really hate and i know we haven't been able to build an alternate that i can swing to and i'm dying to i'm just dying to swing into something where i can do the same activity which is by the way pete cleaning the room like like i feel like i'm doing this constantly and my sport is aikido and at the end of any japanese sport you clean the dojo if you go to school in japan at the end of the day the kids clean their own school which is a cultural thing we don't do it we don't do it together we don't do it together because maybe we don't have a ritual of slowing down and doing some cleaning together i feel like i'm doing a shit ton of it all the time and i do too and you know we all do and i have no but i have no authority over anybody nobody's on the payroll there's no budget to do any of this stuff at this point you know none of the usual kind of mechanisms kind of exist and so maybe culturally we should self authorize okay so culturally we should together stand these practices up and see what we can do about that and i'd love to do that that sounds like a great thing um and then the thursday calls and pete you could put the language of reverie around them longer ago and our thursday calls i think only maybe not maybe i'm just like like you know but these are our reverie calls and that's the rhythm we've fallen into and i would be completely open to perhaps for example alternating thursdays and every other thursday is reverie day and every other thursday is focus day and we pick one thing and we run deep on it and that doesn't mean we solve it or fix it because it runs 90 minutes but we actually slow down pay attention to one thing share out what we know make it better figure out where else to put it what else to do i'd be i'd love to do that be happy to start with next thursday's call or maybe we stand up a different call to do that but it seems this seems like a good place to do that kind of work together so thoughts on that ideas would love to but but i've and pete you're you're you're sort of lovely rant um also put me in the mind of there are so many things i wish we could have done along the road that we didn't quite pull off and in free jerry's brain very early on mark on tronc the home put a bunch of work into creating a semantic media wiki so we could write pattern languages and then the first moment we started testing it we realized oh shit on this particular tool when you name a page it's really hard to go back later and change the name of that page in a way that works in the system and one of the things that happens in pattern languages is you change the name of the pattern lots of times until it kind of works and so we just stopped and he had put in a bunch of volunteer work to do that that just went no place after that but we learned a bunch i think from that but then we didn't have a place to write pattern languages and media and massive wiki isn't yet a place to write for a bunch of people to collaborate on a pattern language although it could be and one of the things i'd like to do in a projectile is figure out what what do we need to add to massive wiki so that it can be the home for a whole bunch of pattern languages because i've got a lot of stored energy and i know a bunch of other people with a lot of stored energy to go write some pattern languages including my friend marie birida and a bunch of others who like really want to go to town doing that and then connect it immediately to that is one of the first things i would like to do as a community is go go take the liberating structures and the wiser democracy and the pure gaji and the other sorts of pattern languages that already exist out there and and fold them into the big fungus whatever that means and then make those more useful in the world which is one of the things that's missing from all of our activities we're not we're not leaving behind useful trails of the things that we're doing and seeing and i feel like i'm trying as hard as i can in the limited tool that i've got this brain thing which i'm obsessed with to make things really useful and findable later and i feel like when we discover stuff i i put it in someplace where it can be found again later and be put to work in a good way and i and i'm like thank goodness and i don't know how to convince other people to do the same thing and i don't know how to find other people who are obsessed with mapping and memorializing the way we are marked uh you and i with these tools and and pete you have a different form of it um that's why i think you're a maven uh but not necessarily a curator of the fungus in a way um because you don't put things in a place where they're found later right there's no there's no place to to find your stuff although sort of but not really like like the amount of i have the same feeling about the brain okay so so we should talk more about this it's fairly opaque to me um we should talk more about this and figure out how to go through it but but gill um i'm interested in and you're in obsidian which pete says is a lot like rome which i don't i don't understand how how those are the same but there's a cult of rome out there people who are busy building personal knowledge graphs and a whole bunch of interesting note taking practice like how do we converge these things so that gill as you walk through your day um taking notes and writing stuff and creating blog posts and whatever that these all become artifacts that are better shared better available better connected more collaboratively written etc etc etc that's a really fun forget rome use obsidian and connect it through massive wiki so let's pete offline if you can show me how to connect it through massive wiki i'm happy to experiment with that um and so i think that that's a route a route to go down um and let me i'll go to mark and dug in just a second just want to make sure i finished what i was saying um i love the word dilettante and it comes from delight and a dilettante has become a bad thing but it used to be a good thing it used to be somebody who sort of loves a lot of things and it's like it's like i love the word amateur which comes from amor which comes from love right it's like these are these are great things um and i think i've made it through all my all my notes so let's go mark and dug and breathe a little bit and then wrap our coffee hi when i was self-employed i used to make a joke that uh i work for a total flake i can identify we know uh so you know a absent micromanager um i have been uh encouraged to use the space of the internet archive to um do stuff i've talked with monica anderson who some of us know um who did a uh ai meetup um in palo alto for a decade um but i'm really interested in moving from individual note taking to um what the social thing is and i know it doesn't exist yet and it's an emergent thing but um basically i've been attempting to figure out how to put together a social memex gathering at the internet archive that could also be onliney as well um you know not restricted to uh the uh the participants um and you know it might be nice to do just something local and then say okay now that we've done this local thing how do we do it a little bigger next month um but anybody who's interested and wants to help out uh i can certainly uh uh benefit from not doing it alone and i'd love to collaborate with you on stuff in these ways so that's and it's great to hear that bit mark because in my head i keep thinking of you and your work as private to you very quickly it's not private to me um except that you know miniscule i looked at it and it's basically you know um about one percent um not private but um let's call it adult um i swear a lot my list for fuck is the hell most hilarious thing in the oh good we could put a little nsfk or something like that next to it but there's but there's very little private stuff too um um i think that's what i wanted to respond to but maybe not but um yeah i'll let it go um thanks i i'll i'll be in touch thanks mark well i keep writing by myself for myself to clarify what i'm thinking and waiting for the time when the group gets to some kind of project and i think pete is on the right wavelength uh to join the shift my writing uh into a group environment and so i'm really looking forward to that and i'd back it up by saying between now and christmas i will be ready to devote uh time and effort to doing that if it materializes thanks dark and and i just want to point out sort of a practicality of this i i have way too many tabs open in front of me some of which are big essays or book drafts from people i know and respect and have not made it through and reading a whole lot of prose is hard and time consuming and paying attention to the prose and digesting it and offering back suggestions or weaving it into my brain is is more time consuming but delightful like like when i hit some when i hit good prose i'm really happy and i'm busy doing a lot of weaving just for myself into this into this odd tool but i'm wondering how we create collective works where we can do the tldr for each other where we can summarize and encapsulate modularize i don't know what this is and i don't know what the process is because because i won't have enough hours in my life to read all the interesting pieces that we're all trying to generate but i'd love to help us all collectively generate a lot of great material in whatever medium we like if it's if it's talking head videos that we post to to twitch tv awesome great um or or tiktok duets which i just learned about in the last day or two um so so yeah any any final thoughts on this fruitful but bumpy thing i think that that bits out really describes a lot of our problem we're we keep looking for what places to put our stuff but don't look at ways of getting it out uh julian i was going to mention this whole topic of finding out stuff just yeah it's kind of a right only mode there's all this stuff that's being put out there but the whole basis of the knowledge management field is that if you can't get to it it's useless and there is quite a huge litany of stuff going on in that respect i would like to to do introduce some of this into the chats but it would have to be after those conferences that i'm doing just because of time constraints but the the brain is a good example the only thing you can search on is text in the node names and that's kind of silly the actually actually text in the notes works i think as well and if i had turned on the indexing for pages you could do text in the content of the pages i've linked to but i turned that feature off but yes so if you go into the world of k.m you find out that you can search for all kinds of stuff and you can do analyses on the contents of your knowledge base and then do searches based on those out likewise so part of the problem with discovery comes from the tools this is why i refer to the brain as a baby to a graph database uh so i will commit to to bringing out some introductions of this stuff in a later call sounds great thank you julian godspeed with your conferences um any other last thoughts p i'm so happy that we're talking about tools um and tools is the wrong place to to to focus because you get you get oh i hate this tool or i don't like this tool this tool works great for me but it doesn't work for you um when we start thinking about what we want to do how we want to brain together more we should think about what we want to accomplish and not think about what tool will we accomplish it with and you're making me think of what does it what is the equivalent of sleeping the dojo in ogm i would love it if if we had a memory even um we do collect we've got an ogm wiki and a massive wiki i mean we have a fledgling memory on your platform uh we don't see it we don't read it yeah um okay well let's come back to this this is i agree i would like to see our things exist in the world stacey you can have the last word for today's call quick question what's the best way for me to introduce myself to massive wiki uh schedule some time with me bingo okay thanks i'll send you an email thank you all right thanks everybody