 It's that time kids Ladies and gentlemen, we're back Whether you wanted it or not I don't know if it's by popular demand or not, but we are here. So you're gonna have to deal with that We are back another episode of the fire and I series It's never not funny at least the two of us at least sitting next to me on screen is my friend Lauren Rosen Licensed therapist out of California all around a good person. So welcome Lauren. Oh, well, thank you and to My well, which side is it on the screen left? You are on the left side of screen so to my left is Julian Salada He's an all-around fabulous guy. He's got a podcast called the anxious truth He's on the Instagram the dot anxious dot truth. He's got books, too And he's studying to become a therapist. So watch out world. We got stuff man. We got stuff going on. Yeah So I'm gonna take over. I'm excited. Yeah, it's it's yeah, it's all in the works, man. It's the grand As I stumble toward the end of this. Oh, let me turn off my notifications. I'm sorry people That was a sound you didn't really necessarily need to hear. I liked it. Yeah, that's okay That's a WhatsApp notification. So today as is our custom we figured out a topic about two and a half seconds before we hit the record button and So I wrote this morning in my morning newsletter about a guilt and forgiving yourself and that sort of stuff It was an over it was a holdover from another episode that I had done of the morning podcast And a bunch of people really kind of keyed in on that and then in my live stream today somebody said yeah But what about when your thoughts are about something real like an actual real event? I said, okay Guilt and real event OCD. Here we are So here yeah, we're gonna talk about that today and I think the two I'm guessing that Clinically the two are not really connected. Are they are they connected? Well, they the guilt and real event OCD. Yeah. Oh for sure. I actually So with OCD we see and I'm sure you see this too People come in and they have they often have anxiety as the main emotional component But sometimes it's discussed and sometimes it's guilt In fact, we see a lot of guilt and when it comes to real event OCD, I you know, obviously, this is anecdotal but I Do see them overlapping quite a bit and oftentimes it's related to some degree of moral script velocity so I Did something in the past and what if that means that I'm a bad person that I am Unforgivable so I mean it you can see where it dovetails beautifully and to dealings of guilt That makes sense. I guess there's regret in there, too Yeah, I wrote this morning with the difference between regret and guilt because I think there is a difference in my opinion anyway And so I guess there's got to be regret. There's guilt all tied in there. Are we? Yeah, I'm curious to know what like I'm maybe in brief because I know you've already put out stuff on this But what like what is the differentiation that you make between regret and guilt? To me regret and this is the way I conceptualize it for me is that regret is an Acknowledgement that I would like to be able to change something in the past I can acknowledge that there's something that I do not like in the past Guilt is sort of a never-ending cycle of trying to change it or find some sort of absolution through like self-flagellation like I Will continue to beat myself up over this in the hopes that somehow that will resolve it or Bring me peace or or get me some absolution in some real or metaphysical sets. I don't know. Yeah, almost like What's it in Catholic and the Catholic Church? I should know this I was both Raised in the Catholic Church and I have I have no clue But there you know the idea of atoning there it is like atonement not that it's exclusive to Catholic faith But that's certainly an idea that you're gonna do a certain number of Hail Mary's or you know You're gonna pray the rosary a certain number of times and then you're free, right? I think that that idea is one that really drives a lot of people with You know, and it doesn't have to be related to real event OCD, but Around this concept of guilt like you're gonna get Somewhere by just reliving over and over again how How much you dislike a situation and I I think one other important discrepancy to make is you know, you talk about regret versus guilt and it sort of reminds me of the flavor of the difference it's talked about between guilt and shame and Certainly that's something that comes up in the context of Of real event OCD and of moral scriptuosity is what if I'm bad The difference between guilt and shame being guilt means I've done something bad that I you know Would have done otherwise. You know if I had it back to I could relive it versus shame, which is I am bad That's good. I was not had not heard that before Yeah, I think Yeah, I don't know who it's necessarily originally from but Renee Brown talks about it a lot Yeah, and so all of that mess is involved when it comes to real event OCD Do you see a fair amount of real event OCD in your community? There's some I'm pretty sure I mean clearly it can't diagnose anybody on the internet But but you could find the people who will tell you that they can't seem to get past being anxious all the time because this is a Real thing this either really happened in the past or it's a real problem now or a pending problem in real life That demands that they stay in this anxious hyper vigilant constantly thinking constantly problem-solving You know state and all these people will almost offer that as not an excuse because they don't want to be that way, of course but as almost Justification for why no, no, no, I but but this is different my anxiety is different It's because of this so it's therefore it's real and different Yes, which we just talked about this in the last episode together of like how the the idea of like this is different and it it it's No different with real event OCD or with the generalized anxiety that you're talking about right? But this is a concern that makes sense given, you know, and is likely or at least potential It's not quite as far-fetched as maybe some of the concerns that we see in more stereotypical OCD And so it's warranted. I can't I'd be I'd be irresponsible to drop it or I'd be bad to drop it right like it that means something about The degree to which I care about what I did Yeah, I love the irresponsible thing. That's such a common thing too. It feels so irresponsible Mm-hmm do when you suggest that I should do like yeah, it's kind of you feel like you're being very reckless If you don't tend to this problem, right that seems to justify tending to constant during every week. Yeah Yeah, real event OCD is it It is does that specify this is an event that has passed already or are we talking about the best or it doesn't matter Usually people are talking about a past real event that they are and that's just in my experience of it I've never I've not heard it as well There's something in the future that we're trying to prep for that's a real event So these categories are all arbitrary and I think again OCD generalized anxiety. They're all together on a spectrum and So whether it's about something in the past or something in the future, you know it's it's all the same process that people are going through of trying to Make sure something bad isn't Going to come to pass or isn't true of the of historically I think with real event OCD because it's usually based in the past it's Generally about like how do I how do I? Resolve this kind of like what you were saying before. How do I? Make space for this to be part of my life. So I think that there's a lot of work in accepting dialectics in That realm people with OCD people with anxiety disorders tend to be very very black and white as you know all too well and When that happens, there's a sense of I'm either good or I'm bad which You know, I don't know about you. I'd be curious to know actually like for my vantage point good and People usually most people are not good or bad. Oh No, I would agree with that 100% you're not either good or bad There's sometimes you're better sometimes. Yeah, but there really is that's such a this is a little more philosophy than anything else now Like what is good? What is bad? We we can kind of agree sometimes societally on universal good and bad But that's pretty that's a pretty narrow range of things. Everything else exists in the gray Right Totally. Yeah, you're so right like so many things are in the gray so many things Don't neatly fit into these categories and even if something if something is good or bad If we can all agree on that At what point does a person then inherently become bad at what point do they? Become irredeemable Which I guess is a common concern like this makes me unlovable unforgivable unacceptable Yeah Yeah, no as you say the black and white thing is is I am either good or bad or this is either completely Solved and put to bed or it is a disaster There's no middle ground of like well I may never find resolution or I've partially resolved this or I'm okay with some of it that yes There's no tolerance for that middle ground in these no, yeah No Don't like things to be like just sort of like laying out there in the ether unresolved. Yeah. Yeah And I would imagine that's a threat that unresolved uncertainty is a threat Yeah, and I can't help but wonder sometimes with your event OCD how much it is about One day this is gonna Somebody's gonna call me on this. I'm not gonna be prepared. I won't have a tone properly Like I wouldn't I won't have kept at this and then I'll realize that I should have been doing that that sort of self-flage elation all along And that I really was a bad person I Was gonna say too I think it also relates to Aaron Beck and and negative core beliefs and this idea of You know, there's worthlessness helplessness and unlovable ability or those three core and that like that unlovable that if you really knew who I was Yeah, then then you would never accept me It drives us so I Think most humans to some degree That there's this concern about about being accepted and loved but then taken to a an extreme in cases like the real event OCD or anxiety about Yeah, real events whether their current future or in the past, I guess Yeah, you said something before like this exists on a continuum, which is what I was wondering about is it at some point And I get this question quite often too like well, I can't stop thinking about this Does that mean I have OCD does that mean I have do I have real event OCD because I can't stop thinking about this thing that happened or I can't say When do we know? I don't know that it's that simple I think again talk about black and white we like to have these lovely little categories where everyone gets placed and There's the DSM and okay you fit in the box and then we do this but Honestly, most anxiety I don't think it matters. I don't think it matters. What do we call it? OCD or generalized anxiety disorder or health anxiety well, illness anxiety disorder or social anxiety disorder orophobia or agoraphobia or My gosh panic disorder, you know, you name it like those things they're all the same From my vantage point anyway, the treatment is identical We're just talking about different themes and you see so much overlap that I don't know what the benefit is Of differentiating so much other than that it's normalizing to people in the very same way that all the subtypes within OCD Are very normalizing to people but they're they're not particularly relevant. That's you know Yeah, that does make sense I think it's excuse me, especially if the subject if the content which I know we don't normally care about but If the content is sort of taboo or on the edges normalizing that could be really important Totally For somebody who will call themselves an overthinking and I can't get over this and I just carry this guilt Sometimes there's a fear that oh, I now I have OCD I have another label another diagnosis something else is broken So there's some fear there too, but I like how you said in the end the treatment really It comes down to the same in the end You know the context might be different the intentional triggers might be a little different The methods might be different based on the context, but in the end the principles are the same So totally yeah, and so what does it matter if you know to to your point earlier? You're worried about a work event that's coming up in a month And you have to speak in front of people and that terrifies you So maybe you have like specific social specific situation social phobia or social anxiety disorder or you're Ruminating over and over again about some moment in the past where you said something And you're not sure Whether or not, you know, it was right or whether or not it was taken out of context or People hate you and you're a bad person, right? And then you can also see the flavors of social anxiety in there. So it's you know, yeah Yeah, and I think this goes beyond disorders to what we're talking about because I mean, I'll I'll share a personal anecdote Yeah, sure So as you know, but our our watchers do not I recently had back surgery and I think what I noticed and obviously I have an anxiety disorder I'm very open about it But so I guess I'm not necessarily the best test case, but my anxiety disorder is pretty well managed on the whole But one thing that I noticed in the aftermath of the surgery or in the aftermath really of the diagnosis And the the the understanding that I required surgery was I should have done X If only I had right and so and you can see the similarity between Between what we've been talking about like anxiety about What's going to happen in the future what like something that I did in the past That's like a maybe more often than not an event or a concrete thing And and saying well, hey, you know, I didn't I didn't go to the doctor sooner and I didn't do this and What if it's my fault right and that impulse to beat up on yourself It's still it's been there for me in moments and I've had to be had to be like, oh, wow. Look at that bait That's interesting. Thanks so much And you know and do my best not to go down that rabbit hole because and you know I could go through all of the rational reasons why it doesn't make sense to go down that rabbit hole But I anyway, I think just hopefully that's illustrative of how this is this is beyond Diagnostic categories. Yeah, I agree. I think everybody Everybody at some point suffers through these things He'll regret rumination over thinking that thing that you just can't I mean look and we all have those I have I have things from back in my high school I have one incident in particular and I won't I'm not gonna I can't really share because I need to be protective privacy of certain people but It's not not I mean horrible But in the end it was really awkward and I know that Boy, I did something when I was 16 that I would have never done when I was 22 or or 32 or 52 Like I would have known better Totally and it was a stupid thing to do and every once in a while I will remember it for whatever reason. I don't know why it'll pop back up I'm like, hey, remember when you did that thing and I'm like Yes, I freaking remember and there is that feeling of embarrassment Like it's really and it's funny the embarrassment I didn't feel then because I didn't know I was wrong then But now I know so I'm embarrassed for 16 year old me So everybody in the world I like it wasn't disastrous But nonetheless it was impactful and I think everybody all human beings will have that situation It happens to all of us. Uh, so but at some point maybe it starts to go off the rails a little Yes, absolutely Um, and it's the difference between And by the way, I was just awing for a little drew. I mean 16 year old me. Hey, I thought I had it going on at 16 man, man I didn't but I I I look back and I'm still like, oh poor thing Man, that's a rough rough age to be. I thought I was the ship. But what a dork like I could say that You know 16 year old drew he was a dork, but that's Oh, that's the best Um, but yeah, and I think you're right. Everybody has these moments of recollection these sparks of memory and And I have I have some like that too where it's like, ooh, right you get that Feeling and I think that is the feeling that is the Sort of invitation in for people with real event OCD I don't want that and I have to fix that. I can't have because that's it's inconsistent with myself image Like I that that doesn't fit with the rest of who I am and my idea of myself um And so, you know, I know we're kind of going outside the context of traditional erp approaches but it is in the realm of all-in-on thinking and and restructuring In a way because it's it's really down to making space For the fact that back what we were talking about before that we are both good and bad That there are things that we will never quite be able to write That we have these stains on our our good names and That some people some people are going to see us as the villain in their stories, which Very I don't know a lot of people who like that anyway, but certainly, you know You have any sort of social anxiety. That's like no Yeah, but I think it's an unavoidable fact of life for almost everybody Somebody's going to have a problem with something you did at some point and will hold a grudge and there's nothing you can do about that Yeah Yeah, which I know is not a pleasant place to be for a lot of people But I think what's interesting is when you say it brings that's the invitation in so for somebody who's prone to this problem Where it catches fire and then the cycle starts It's you know, that creates, you know, it's a state of distress Clearly I experience emotions and embarrassment and shame and oh my god. I can't believe I did that and it's it's that you do Yeah, the icky feeling is a state of distress And if you live in a world where you cannot allow a state of distress You are going to quickly try to solve that problem an unsolvable problem to make sure that I cannot I cannot allow that Yeah, that's such a good point Sorry, go ahead. Oh, whether it's just the feeling that those emotions will be too much The two things I hear is the one that you were talking about. What does this say about me? It is a judgment about me. I am a bad person. I'm a horrible person. I'm unlovable or Big emotions are too much. I cannot handle big big emotions. So Gotta figure this out and stop it. Definitely. Yeah Yeah, that's sort of like the idea one of the core fears in In the realm of ocd that's talked about is this idea of ruining right like and I think the idea that my And that so this is a little bit different from what you were just talking about with it being like this is too much I can't possibly feel this when it comes up this idea that like and now I've ruined my life and now It's permanently marked and there's just no way of of getting back to where I was and it's going to all be horrible um Which I think is sort of Related in a way to what you're talking about and I think everybody probably has that feeling as well It's just a matter of degree sometimes everybody's gonna have that feeling. I can't change that as much as I wish I had done this differently I can't I can't do it differently now. So it's not perfect the way I wanted this to turn out Yeah, and so it becomes a matter of how willing are we to tolerate that in the end Yes, it is Absolutely it can we let that just sort of hang out with us one thing I liked that you said maybe a couple minutes ago was that the idea of This is a problem that can't be resolved No, and I I think a lot of ocd and anxiety falls into that category But in some instances It's particularly clear that there's no certain to be the certainty to be had or no resolution to be had And I think this is certainly one of those cases if something has happened that you're That you have guilt around or shame around like you cannot change the event That's not possible And no amount of going back through it and trying to rationalize and reason with yourself as to why you're allowed to forgive yourself Is actually going to change the event and spoiler alert. You're not actually going to talk yourself into Feeling as though you deserve to be forgiven No, never it's not going to happen Yeah, no matter how hard you think I will share a quick anecdote An anecdote of somebody who took it to such an extreme and this person has spoken publicly about it So I think I'm okay saying this without saying a name Took it to such an extreme that they started digging into the other worlds the many worlds theories and in quantum physics Yeah, yeah to try and find solace in the idea that In in other parallel universes where the quantum waveform collapsed differently that event did not happen And it did not ruin them and they are thought of as a great person instead of the villain in someone's story They they really and they dug dug dug into that. Is that true? Is that actually true? Have we proved that that's true? It became an obsession to prove that the the many worlds theory is true So they knew that in some version of the universe that didn't happen. That's how that's how that can go off the rails Yeah Oh and But it does sort of also speak to the element of what beautiful minds we have Right like that you can that that is The connection that's drawn there the ideas the creativity behind that I if I could just resolve it By proving this theory, you know Not a lot of people would come to that I don't think Yeah, that's incredibly creative thinking Totally for me a great example of How we bring and this is a thing that comes out of act and acceptance and commitment therapy Where we we pathologize problems and we think that life is a series of problems that need to be solved and we bring To power that we bring to bear this incredible power that isn't meant for that Right and it becomes a weapon instead of a tool like that's incredibly creative thinking and a lot of connections And it's amazing Testaments in your mind, but then it becomes a weapon against yourself when you try to Look at life as a series of problems to be solved, which it is not Right and that's where the idea not to go to off Uh the beaten track here, but that's where the idea of the obsessive the obsessive mind came from right is like How do you operate the obsessive mind? It's not changing and it's not bad But any tool set or skill set that is universally applied isn't going to be effective in all instances It's that's going to start to become problematic So if you if you have the operating manual and you know What where your strengths and weaknesses are and you can kind of Deal when you get hooked and you you wanted to go want to go into problem solving mode then Then you get to appreciate the parts of your brain that are extraordinary Yeah, if if you're not tortured by them and I don't hate to use or tortured, but that's people I'm just tortured by this Yeah, yeah, I get it. So I guess let's lose last five minutes to probably answer the question everybody's been waiting for Well, then what am I supposed to do with this? How do I overcome this? I can't stop thinking about this I can't stop trying to solve the problem. What do I do? Because I know they're gonna ask what do I do? How do I overcome that? How do I just stop thinking about this? Yeah, well, and you've already answered it. Haven't you I think Well, you can't just stop thinking about it. That's the first like technical answer like Man to never think about it again will guarantee that you will think about it. We just know that now That's just the way it's so cruel. It's so cruel. It's bad. It's a bad design. It's a good design, but it's a it's a bad design Sorry I There's there are some flaws in the in the the design for sure and that yeah, that is one of them. Um Yes, we know that trying not to think about it is not gonna be an effective option for sure and So it's down to how do we make space to live alongside the thoughts without necessarily picking them up And futzing with them Like can you just let that the sort of internal clutter of your mind be there instead of like nope I need to make sure that everything goes back in its place and then of course Things don't have a place and it's a you know And so in the end the alleviate because everybody's after the the alleviation of the discomfort Like I want to get out of that state of distress that this triggers and in the end It's it's going through the state of distress That's the only way to do it and I think sometimes when people ask the question But how do I overcome this? It's an incredulity like wait a minute. You can't possibly mean that I have to simply allow myself to feel like an awful person Well, but sadly. Yeah, you kind of do Like yeah for sure I mean the only the only addition I will make because people will say like am I supposed to feel like a horrible person forever I'm like, no, and I'm not saying you but you know what I mean But then I then I go well, that's like a horrible feel person is not a feeling. It's a judgment So what are you actually feeling? Are you feeling anxious? Are you feeling guilty? Are you feeling? Whatever and then that's something that we can work with because I can help you sit with that I can also help you acknowledge and and sit with the fact that that that thought is over there But if it's I'm I have to sit with this fact that I'm a horrible or the idea that I'm a horrible person You know, we're almost feeding into It being some sort of a A truth Yeah, so that means that's a good. That's a really good. I'm glad you brought that up Oh, that means I just have to be horrible forever No, but you have to be willing to allow the possibility that you are in fact horrible And because when you try to run from that it's very it's like quicksand Which I thought would be a much I know this is an old joke But I thought it would be a much larger problem in the world based on what I saw as a kid I've never encountered quicksand but it's like quicksand the more you struggle the more you sink And so the more you try to get away from that state of distress the more you are glued to it But when you stop and allow it to be there You get to actually it sits in a chair next to you and you can push the chair away It's on casters a little bit and make space and like okay I I can coexist with this and then it doesn't feel like it's going to be forever Right because then you get to have the natural ebb and flow of it where it comes sometimes and then you're taken off guard by it And you're like oh right there that that thing happened Yeah, yeah Well, well, so I mean unfortunately, we haven't given you if you're watching and you're hoping we're going to give you that These are three steps here are three hacks to like overcome relationship. You know our reocd. Sorry Like we're never going to do that video. I was going to say I think all of our videos will be a disappointment to the person Who's looking for that? But I think that there's also a really beautiful silver lining here, which is that you walk out of it But going okay, like It's none of life is that simple none of it so I could either fight for these categories of good and bad and you know Right and wrong or I could just make space for the fact that like Life is a freaking mess and that and that's uncomfortable. That's that is definitely uncomfortable Not having a sort of organization around at all. Oh, yeah, I agree 100% But you know the other thing too is the realization that life is a hot mess for everybody that's another act principle there that like Suffering in air quotes or or adversity is a universal experience for human beings Like yeah, we don't get a choice. That's what we're in so You know trying to make sure it never happens is really a sure way to suffer even more. So Actually, I have a quote by Ricky Dervais that I'll have to share with you that that sort of talks about About the idea that it's all like all of us are in it and this sort of suffering. Hold on. Actually, can I share? Yeah, hell. Yeah, sure. I have it really quite readily available. It must be a good quote Actually, there are two I was sharing it a friend told me about it. I found one and his are sort of late Well, because we Ricky Dervais is a little bit, you know salty Um, so one of them is saltier than the other. Um, bring it the one I found the first one was I believe that life is like a holiday. I guess We don't exist exist for like a 13 and a half billion years And then we have 80 to 90 years, which is an amazing experience consciousness, you know fun wine dogs cats All the amazing things in life Then we die and we never exist again Now some people don't believe that even though I think that that's all we've got I still think that the quality of life is what matters and I think we have a lot of responsibility We have to pay our way and enjoy ourselves without hurting other people and I just And I think to leave the world Even just a little better if you stay in someone's caravan or apartment Everyone knows that you should leave it as you found it or a little bit better Leave it just a little bit better and I want to be in the balance I want to leave my corner of the world as nice as I found it if not a little bit better. That is all um, and I think that the idea of You know, we get 80 to 90 years and you know, I think I wanted to bring it up because it's like And it's going to be full of really hard things which he's talking about the fun and the wine and the dogs and the cats but it's he implied here is that You're going to be on a roller coaster and you got to enjoy it or not. Um, the other one is We are on a rock traveling around one of 100 billion stars Our species is one of over half a billion that have ever existed. Our chances of being born are about one in 400 trillion You're not special, but you are lucky Enjoy your amazing life. You'll never exist again That's that's I really like that one. That one's really good Well, it's got his like true pithy sort of Yeah But that's actually really good. Your odds of being here are astronomically against so You know, that's thankful that we're here. I guess I know easier said than done The thing I one of the things I dig about the the first quote too is There's some philosophy in there and so leave the leave you the world At least as good as the way you found it and in a way we get to contribute So this conversation people are going to listen to us. They might talk to somebody else and navigating through the shit and the uncertainty and the distress Believe it or not. We're sort of adding to the collective wisdom the collective knowledge people that come after us We'll stand on our shoulders and and know that one day Lauren sat in her big black chair and said You got to surf through the shit and it was and somebody will benefit from that. So we are all contributing in a way Yeah, this point to a certain extent in the struggle. I don't want to romanticize it But there's also silver linings in it. No, actually, I love I love that and I Think that that's the the benefit of having gone through what we've been through and coming here to try and support others and Yeah, you you make what with what you're given what you can Yeah, and it's not to sugarcoat it and yeah, obviously you're gonna have Moments where it's like, yeah, but I I didn't leave my corner of the world better off and I'm bad And therefore I deserve to punish myself Unendingly for the next however many years But what's interesting is You could do that Or maybe you spend your life Just trying to be the kind of person that you want to be Yeah, that works and sometimes you you make it and sometimes you don't Some days you're really good at being you and some days we suck at being us. It's okay. It's all loud It's all part of the part of the deal It is All right, so there you go. We've solved no problem for anybody but Well, honestly though, I hopefully it's been a fruitful discussion to listen into and maybe you'll take something out of it And have things to think about even though thinking sometimes is the problem things to reflect on let's say that Yeah, I like that. Yeah, I always appreciate these chats that we have Likewise, yeah, we will keep doing them So I guess we're done We've gone a little further than we usually do at 34 minutes so good But for those of you who do not follow lauren on social media You totally should and I got it right and you have to think about it. There she is At the obsessive mind on instagram is probably the best place and also your website the obsessive mind.com, right? I think I'm gonna get a little bit more into the youtube world. Maybe all right. Come on in the water's fine And he's got a thing that he's gonna put up and That's his handle on instagram. You can find him there or on many other places his website Which also your podcast is on your website or do you have a different? Yeah, no, they're all there the anxious treats Ain't the anxious treat calm and Yeah, all over amazon too with all his books and stuff like just you know crushing life. I am all over amazon Well if you're watching with us live on youtube like we do Thanks for hanging out with us for sure and keep commenting We'll try and answer them the best we can if you're watching in the future leave a new comment We'll try and answer the best we can so thanks a bunch. Yep. Thanks. All right. We're out