 And I thought I could do this better because what's out there sucks and I started to think about it at night like I need to do this Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to another episode of Amir Approved I got my good friend Dan Demsky here. Dan is a serial entrepreneur and currently the co-founder I should say or founder co-founder. Yeah co-founder of unbound Merino Which is interesting company. Thank you Yeah, very interesting. I've been on the sidelines paying attention what you've been doing for the last couple of years and The reason why I have you on the show today is I want to talk to you about The roadmap that you took to build Company that you have today like what was the process? I'm more or less curious What was the inception the idea to even begin this? Okay, well I'll try to make a long story pretty short It wasn't my first business my first real business was a video production agency, which we ran for Almost but not quite a decade started my mom's basement my business partner and I were just doing freelance video and we were really into it really good at it and Getting these gigs started to stack upon themselves One after the other after the other and we had to start charging more money and all of a sudden We had this business because we were really good at doing what we do and we really cared about the customer experience And we loved it. We grew that business like really rapidly for my mom's basement You know a downtown studio to like a big top floor Awesome office space with all the staff and the thing is is when we grew that business We didn't really know what we were doing. It was just happening We didn't even really intend to start a business and as the years went by I found myself Becoming more and more Disillusioned with what I was doing like I it was so exciting and I felt like we were awesome like wow We grew this, you know business with Seven-figure revenue and we were in our early to mid-20s and I was making money and our clients were amazing We had all the staff and I felt like this is great but it just became monotonous and I Started not liking the industry and I started feeling like I was doing a song and dance and boardrooms every day and I had to and I was just trying to Find a way to do something different, but I was so stuck in that business and Because I felt stuck and because I lost passion for what I was doing the business sort of went like this was the growth and then it's sort of Just kind of stayed stable and then there was this dissent, you know revenue and profitability That went down, but happiness and fulfillment was like just nose diving. I hated it I'd get emails coming in with what would be the most glorious opportunity or in my early days, and I'm just like I But I'd have to So I knew that I wanted to create a new business and I just didn't know what it was All I knew was I don't want it to be a service business I don't want to have to go in and say this is what we do and This is how much a cost and sign here and we can get started and rely on clients to Sign a check so that I could eat at night it was just giving too much power to the customer and Way too much effort from me It's like you put in this much work and then your max outcome is gonna be that it never it didn't scale so this process of getting to unbound Marina was took years and It took getting together with my business partner that my friends, you know, the people who I Started the business with unbound Marina We'd we just put a chalkboard out and come up with ideas and we had crazy weird ideas like you know Doing with this idea to do art prints that would be you know We'd find like small local artists from all different cities and do limited edition prints So you could only make ten of them and thinking that people would be into that and first started like teasing out a business model But that sort of phased out again. I don't know People care about our prints. We think it's cool. Maybe other people won't and Just by happen chance I ended up starting a sock company because my friend was starting it And I started helping him just to help him. I forgot you had a yeah, yeah, and it was really fun I really enjoyed doing it Quickly into starting that the guy I started with no longer wanted to do it So he started it. I was helping all of a sudden his business partner. He leaves and I'm like, oh, I'm doing a sock company and We really had a cool Creative slant on it, but we never were able to get that really off the ground Sort of did we started getting in a lot of stores. The product was really cool. We love the quality. We love the concept Um But it wasn't any time soon I saw myself taking a salary from that business So I'm like how much harder do we need to grind? And I started thinking about after all this time. Why is it That this thing is not working and I would think okay. Well For starters, I think we got into this business when funky socks became this big thing Yeah, everyone's all of a sudden wearing these funky colored socks So I guess when he started it he was saying this is a big trend Let's get into this industry and in hindsight. That's the worst Timing to ever get into a business. Something is really really popular It's already too late everyone and their uncle started having a sock company And I knew like I knew four people or three or four people at sock companies. Well Boris here in Toronto, Soxie Yeah, yeah, and then there was Cole and Parker. That's right There's just all I'm like every like how many people need funky socks and why pick ours over there? I think our story is cool and some people did but There's just way too much. There's just way too many people and in that massive massive crowded industry So that was sort of I think the thing that I dwelled on and then also I started looking at funky socks and I got bored of them I'm like kiddies were fun and crazy But are these just like the new like piano tie, you know, like people in the 80s wear these piano ties and all of a sudden it's ridiculous so I started thinking damn like I don't know if this thing has a lot of legs and Unbound Merino came as a concept Because I was looking for a way to pack lighter because traveling with my wife Is a huge pain in the ass with the amount of luggage that you need to bring, you know We were on this trip. We were going to Athens, Greece London, England and another small town in in Greece and We're going to this nice dinner We're going to friends and this and that so this suitcase just got bigger and bigger and bigger with all of the options And when we got to this town Hydra in Greece, there's this There's no roads and the hotels right of course at the top of this hill This is cobblestone steps going up and the only way you can get your stuff up there is you schlep it up yourself Or you hire a donkey Be a guy in the donkey will schlep it up for you and I'm like, I'm not paying donkey And I remember getting up to that hotel. I was just dripping sweat and When my wife opened that suitcase I Just looked at all the stuff in there I'm like, did you wear that did you wear that position all Stuff to her. She wasn't wearing she was just just in case stuff and I said, okay The next trip that we go and we're just with carry-ons Is this story too long by the way or am I just like okay? I'm gonna go for you. This is how we there is a point to like why we decided this is a good idea And We didn't forget about that idea. We're gonna go in Well, how wherever we go no matter what the trip we're gonna bring just to carry on that's it and Sure enough that next trip ended up being our honeymoon and we went to Croatia Italy Montenegro, Slovenia and I Started googling. How do you travel overseas for a long period of time? Just carry on I was read all these reddit posts and blog posts and I came across this post talking about This person who uses marina wool of clothing Because it's antibacterial and it's odor resistant. So instead of packing like 14 shirts You could pack two or three because you can re-wear them without having to wash them every single time because it won't smell No, that's it. This is great. Where do you find this stuff? Well, you find it at stores like Mech, which is like a mount equipment co-op in Canada or REI in the States um, Patagonia Europe bound which was like another camping kind of store and I live on a street where all of these stores are so If anyone has access to this kind of clothing I'm right in the in the district and I went around all the stores and I couldn't believe How ridiculous is marina wool stuff looked? I remember being in mech and they had this one shirt It had like a timber wolf on it howling at the moon and it said live free and the shirt was 110 dollars And like who would this is the kind of stuff that you like you find in a lost and found if you like Were like stranded somewhere you'd have clothing like it's like I couldn't believe it someone to pay 110 for this And then the stuff that didn't say live free with a timber wolf on it looked like active wear Which is fine if you're going you know running a You know, you're going jogging or you're doing you're going portaging or something But when I was going on a trip and I ended up buying some of this stuff because it's all the only options we had I remember going on this trip and feeling like I'm not wearing the stuff. I want to wear like I'm going to a cocktail bar I don't want to be wearing like someone like running shirt. It looks like I'm supposedly going to running It has like a reflective logo and stuff And I started digging and digging and digging And I just couldn't find good quality marina wool stuff that was simple stylish and basic the kind of stuff I just I'm not into fashion. I'm pretty anti-fashion. I just want to wear like nice looking simple stuff that performs And I felt like no one was doing And I started to think of my friends who created these really great e-commerce businesses You know, um, alex icon and Mimi icon with luxie hair They made this amazing awesome e-commerce business and then my uh, my friend started D brand which is the world's like largest manufacturer of vinyl skins for smartphones laptops and all and I was a partner in that business for a bit and I got bought out but I was very close to the start of that business and I saw luxie hair get started. I remember when he's just this idea And when I looked at you know, those are two examples of people I looked at I thought What made these businesses really take off? That's different from hitsu socks my sock company, which is just kind of like lagging on the ground level And it really was just timing and I remember I remember alex's story about looking for hair extensions for when he was getting married to Mimi And how They went online and they were just so disillusioned with what was out there The customer service of the stores or the inventory or the shipping from uk because they didn't have it Canada or the us and all these problems and they thought hey, we could do this better and dbrand had a similar genesis where it's like He I mean the story of dbrand quickly see he he bought these like really expensive beats by dre headphones He thought they were so cool and then he was on his university campus and he saw everyone had them I thought man these screw this I don't I like he no longer wanted to have these like lame looking He thought they were lame looking now because everyone's trying to look cool these beats by dre So he took a pocket knife and he cut some hockey tape and he like perfectly Skinned them to be matte black and they looked badass And someone said to him like hey, that's an awesome skin you have on those headphones And he didn't even know like there were skins that was a thing So he started looking online and seeing companies sell these so he ordered them and he thought that they were so crap That he could do better with a pocket knife and hockey tape So he got into the business because he thought I could do this better so I drew on those stories and I thought I could do this better because what's out there sucks And I started to think about it at night like I need to do this And I talked to a friend of mine as a business coach and I explained the whole idea and he knew of marina woolen thought He's like Dan this idea Is fantastic Took but you can't do it And I was what And he said I'm you know between your two companies trying to get the sock company off the ground and your video production agency Where are you going to find the time to do this and he was kind of right Because I was already spread so thin everything was suffering I was I wasn't even paying myself a salary for my company anymore. Like I was just like I was in the shit But I was focused on finding that next thing and uh I was up At night literally thinking like I got to do this. I have to figure it out and we decided to Give it a shot but do it in crowdfunding And we did crowdfunding for two reasons one I didn't have the dough to go and start of clothing company not knowing whether we would work or not And two it was a way of validating the concept. It's like I can do my best to Try to come up with prototypes and then pitch those prototypes And see if it catches on now. What did he do with the agency? Did you leave it? Did you get bought out because you know as your coach said you're the time was You know, you know, you only have so much time to focus right so so I was still working on both the stock company and the video production agency and the crowdfunding the third I guess the third part of the crowdfunding campaign why it was a A way in for us is that we didn't have to work Full-time or even part-time like we couldn't work really part-time and The two guys I started with one has has young kids So he couldn't really devote tons of to any at a full-time job so we had to carve like Friday starting at 8 to 8 30 p.m. And we can go till 1 2 3 however late we can you know keep keep the gas running and That's how we did it. So we did it over the course of a year. We sourced manufacturers Built out prototypes came up with the brand came up with the marketing and did it and it's probably a year to a year and a half that took us from The idea to getting all the prototypes done Doing all the photography in the video doing the branding to creating the way everything And then after all of those weekends and some early mornings and the occasional day off that we'd booked to work on this That was what we had we had this package which was a crowdfunding campaign and click start And you cross your fingers and you do all your homework to To figure out how can you make this crowdfunding campaign work? and I leaned on everybody and it I just crossed my fingers and I thought if it doesn't work at least I tried my best I did we did a bang-up job And I'll know that this is not a good idea the market's not ready for it Or they're not interested or they just don't care like I do and at the very least I'll have tons of our own prototypes I can have it for me and it was fun. I got to hang out with my friends and drink lots of great whiskeys And we we were trying to raise 30,000 really we need 70 but we said we needed 30,000 And we did almost 400,000 like it just first was all friends and family, but then it just started taking life of its own And that was the start and what do you think was one of the main? Leavers that took it to 400,000 specifically for the crowdfunding campaign There are so many Um, and I did a reddit post about all the things that I did that were like I guess unique like I I leaned on all the great blog posts that I could find out there and Work from the tactics, but if there was one that really stands out We did indiegogo and they have a thing that if you get to 30 of your campaign goal You can do a deal with them. They'll put you in their newsletter marketing, which is like A lot of people buy from it So that's why we said we nearly needed 30,000 because I'm like I bet you I could wrangle up $10,000. So friends and family get 30 of the 30,000 to put you in the newsletter Yeah, so I didn't get like 10,000. Yeah So if I made it 70,000, which was really needed I'd have to go get how can we get We need to get 20,000 plus for in the first 20 48 hours. So We just hack just game the system a little bit. I mean, it's not they don't really care Also within the force for 48 hours. You have to do it or first 48 hours You need to get 30 30% got you so I for a month leading up to it was just Knocking on I was messaging everyone on the face, but I wasn't just messaging. Yeah, because If you mass message people, they know that they can tell that it's a mass message and they can just Just close it and like not reply what we did is First I asked them all I said, hey can I ask a favor of you and I asked I said I'm gonna be launching a clothing company in Like a month or an hour or whatever the time was and I'm really trying to get this thing off the ground. It's been a labor of love for a year and a half And I just need support If you're okay, don't feel any pressure but if you feel like You could buy a shirt off us and they're a bit expensive You know, the early bird price was going to be like 45 or 50 us for a t-shirt Um, it would mean so much to me But it's an unbelievable shirt and this is the best price that you're ever going to get because it's an early bird price Are you willing to and most people said, yeah, some people said, you know what? I just can't be spending any money right now or some people didn't reply But when the day came that we were launched instead of asking again, I created a video one for each person that I wanted to ask so it would be I just turned the webcam on a bit. Amir, how are you? Stan, remember I told you I was running that well, we just launched it. It just launched today And we're so proud of how it turned out, but we're really nervous. We're really hoping to get your support if and Whatever I ask so then you get in your Facebook message or inbox this little like thumbnail And you see my face and it says amirrosic.mov and It doesn't look like Like a scam or anything because you see it's me. Yeah, you do this. You do the things that don't scale Yeah, that yeah, I made a personable one. Yeah, and we stayed up all night for nights building out this library of videos Me and Andrew and just like something got crazy because we had to drink while we're doing it It just was so boring. So something got like we're hammered and something got nuts But people watched it and they felt like okay That was for me. It was very personal and they are Asking for I can do it. So It was very easy for us to get that first $10,000 in sales. So we If we did it in like A couple hours or something. It was all friends and family I remember seeing it's like brian demski my brother Sandy my business partner's cousin. I remember these names coming in All these orders just people. I know people. I know people. I know and then once you got to 10,000 You're the the crowdfunding algorithm sort of like Use you as a trending campaign. There's all this traffic And then you start seeing like yohannes and berlin. Who's that guy? You know, I started seeing these other names and it just kept coming coming coming Then we started buying ads so that we could keep the traffic high And it had this illusion of being a very successful campaign very fast So it took a life of its own and I thought holy shit This thing might work And then I had to make decisions in my life Okay, well I was a little unhappy before and now I have this thing that I've really believe in it so authentically me So I have to make the decision. Do I continue? With this and leave everything behind and that's what I did How did that process look like? I said to my business partner. I can't be in this business anymore. It's a sort It's not like I could sell it. This is both for the socks and the agency both. Yeah It the agency wasn't worth anything in the sense that it's only Worth as much as your next client job Like what are we in it? There's no assets in it. It's like we have some camera gear and stuff like that, but I I saw paying myself a salary. I said I need to focus on this I moved into it my business partner runs that business and he does way better without me because one less like Less chef and he wound it down. Yeah made it more simple and The revenue has this way less overhead to deal with so he just does it so much better And it just worked out so well for him and it worked out for me. I just like kind of cleanly just stepped into a new Career or a new business and it's just going was that conversation easy Um, it was with it was with him. Yeah. Yeah, yeah He's cool and the socks was the same thing. Yeah, it was a little less. Well, he left, right? It was just you or well, yeah, but then I had another partner after Yeah, that's another conversation He's a great guy. Just I don't he wasn't happy with me because I kind of like all of a sudden I was just like And I was gone What was the next step after the crowdfunding? Well, because you guys ended up raising 400,000. Yeah, right? Yeah, it's pretty crazy So that all went into inventory, right? Yeah, so then You know, it still had a feeling of we got to be bold here Go all in because we have a start here We got 400,000 that includes So, you know, some of the costs of running the campaign But most of us just went to inventory. We also were very paranoid about quality So we did a lot of our manufacturing in china So we wanted to make sure we were going to the factories to monitor the quality ourselves Even though we don't really know what we're doing with the quality assurance, but They help, you know that we were Seeing the product and measuring it and trying it on while we're there But also to go and visit the factory. So we felt like it was A place we could be proud to do business because you hear things all the time like oh They have like children working in these factories often I hear it's not true, but I don't really know So I wanted to go there and feel like yeah, I can I can factor So that was that was a part of our budget, but that money was all accounted for Immediately it's all the inventory all the shipping out to all the itty-go-go backers And then having that inventory and building a small warehouse, which we did in like a got 10 by 20 foot storage locker. That's was our first like office um Actually moved in there three years ago today. I just on time hop the app um and We felt like we had all the pieces in place to start a really great business But this was not a business yet. That was just a crowdfunding campaign we were very fearful that we're gonna go and Start this web store and all of that like buzz that we got from crowdfunding won't continue and We had to just have faith and that we could do it so we put up our web store and I'll never forget. It was we launched it We opened on December 6th, and we were planning out A big launch. We're gonna, you know, email all the people and do tweets and all that stuff like we're Open, you know, the store is or whatever And we've started our Shopify store and we're going back in, you know Next few days to like fix some of the photography and some of the copy and all this stuff And after a few days, I remember going to the shop. We're at Starbucks We went to the Shopify back end And there was all these orders And we didn't even announce the store. And we're just like, whoa That's crazy. How do these people even find us? Yeah, how did it find you? I mean, it's pretty obvious in hindsight that we had we sold 2000 customers to crowdfunding People knew who we were so we were now shipping all this stuff for months So people were googling to find us and they not just find the crowdfunding campaign, but now this website So they were searching for us and finding us Because there was enough people that there was some word of mouth started getting generated We rushed to our warehouse. We shipped like those like, you know, like maybe it does in orders or something And I thought we have a business that was what I knew and like this Thing has legs because that was there was no marketing Since crowdfunding that was people looking for us. Yeah, you found a gap that people needed Yeah, people saw people got it and they liked our stuff enough to like loop back and buy more or tell their friends So That was the start of the start and it's just been growing It's just steadily. I mean people keep coming back. We have people who've bought in off us like I mean we started shipping just over It was about it was three years ago right about now From crowdfunding didn't launch our store till December But in that time we've had people have bought off off us like 15 times like one customer So I'm like many have bought like close to 10 and you mentioned in the beginning You know mentioned alex mutual friend of ours and dbrand And the key was timing of the market Would you say that's one of the key things that happen here as well? I think that's the biggest You know, it's it's all success. I think comes from a lot of your like Initiative and execution and your hard work, but there's a huge part is luck. Mm-hmm timing Timing is also like to me timing. It's not luck. It's like your it's a decision Yeah, but timing's huge and I think I don't think a lot of people talk about it that much It's like I think 90% of business is all timing. I agree I don't think a lot of people realize that Just the right time we were the right The right message in the right place at the right time And I think that you can get that inspiration And a lot of people do when they're looking for something that they just can't find themselves Like I remember coming back from Japan the first time I went Toronto I went and I had so much ramen Japan and I fell in love. This is amazing And I went there was this one place that had pretty decent ramen one place had bad ramen in Toronto It was the only place and I was just thinking like They got to bring ramen to the city like there has to be like The food scene is blowing up in the city. There has to be more ramen And just year after year like you can't walk a block without incredible. Yeah So it's just like that. It's like a second you're tuned in to something that's Not right like ah, I did This could be better. It's really those moments that I think create The good ideas That's where you can feel that timing and if you have the if you have the grit and I guess the skill And the ability to execute you could be the person to do it Crowdfunding makes it That much easier. I don't wouldn't have been able to do without crowdfunding. So I'm like always Forever grateful to Indiegogo. I even emailed them. I was like, like I tweeted at their president like changed my life, man This is it's huge for me. It was huge because I didn't have the funds Or the time or the energy to start a business the old-fashioned like I needed crowdfunding. Are you guys using indiegogo to launch new Products not anymore. We did once and it was also awesome because as we're scaling We just didn't have enough cash to fund the inventory. We needed like we needed it just that cash was a big problem this Yeah, with with the With the lead times like we had to forecast like how much do we need for like the next four months before like we put This order in this because there's a minimum order they have to order from the factories Yeah, but even with that sometimes we need to order more because we thought you know our minimum order for our t-shirts would be 600 and we're like we need more than 600 Black crew neck t-shirts. We sell these like crazy and we're not going to get them for four months minimum so You have to buy enough that will Stock you for the four months that follow but you have to look at Your sales projection come up with sales. We didn't even know what we're going to sell Like in four months from now, it's going to be the holiday season. We're already going to sell through tons So we probably need more like you have to guess how much you need and then you have to You know put a deposit on it colors and the sizes it cost so much money. Yeah, so Because we were doing well people wanted to invest in the business and we were like very very careful not to jump Did you take any outside capital? No, okay. What we did was we We were gonna We ended up getting a loan pretty low interest loan which helped us get over a little hump Which we had to pay back within a year Private loan. Yeah, just like a family friend. I know it was tons of though I just like I never wanted to ask for money. Like I just don't like doing it but like So I that was huge Got a good loan from a family friend But that was only enough to get us so far And we were able to divide up the payments over in monthly payments over a year It was no problem to pay it back But really we needed more money and we couldn't have asked this guy for more so like what do we do? we can Try to go to the bank bank wouldn't give us a loan because we weren't in business long enough Um, do I know anyone else with money? Not really one that I could feel comfortable asking um investors There's a lot of there But like it's so early in the company like how much do we have to give for how much? And then we have someone breathing down our neck. It felt like not a good idea So we're like, why don't we just do crowdfunding again? So we came up with our compact travel hoodie and that was to crowdfund that Inventory for the hoodie, but really it was to make Profit because we needed to get a cash injection so we could buy the inventory. We needed the other stuff Not just the hoodie. We need t-shirts. We need underwear So we did another crowdfunding campaign this time. We had our own customer base It was a little easier to get in we didn't have to ask friends and family for anything And we could cut a deal with indiegogo. That's even better because they know that we did well the first time Uh, yeah, run me through that so that you have negotiation power here then. Yeah, well, you start to say Okay, we'll do it with you instead of Kickstarter, but We want you to give us three guarantee us three newsletter Distributions and one of them has to be the feature because there's one that is the subject line and the top Focus what? Yeah, and they know that we have and like here's our email list now. Like you can see the size of it You saw what we did before for them It's just about having another successful campaign. They make help us get successful. They make their cut So what's your cut for that? I forgot it's a couple percent or a couple percent sure. Yeah, I don't remember. I don't remember But it's well earned because they do help. That's why I like indiegogo I don't know if Kickstarter's I had nothing bad to say but I have no experience with them But I do know that you can't email them or call them because they're so big Interesting that indiegogo has like they give you count reps you talk to them Go shave with you. That was super helpful So we did the second one for the crowd for the hoodie and we did 400 grand again And this time it was like a third of the work because we'd have to go and like knock on everyone's door and make Videos trying to convince our friends to buy things like it's just just worked So that gave us It was like the cash injection we needed to get over that major hum And that's what continues today. Just keep rolling with the momentum. It just keeps growing Can you guys are in amazon? Hell no, really? Yeah, I know. Tell me Okay, well I don't like to usually talk about this publicly because I'm afraid of Jeff Bezos The scary men scary evil men um The reason why I won't Ever see as being on amazon is because While you can make some good money and you can sell a lot of product there and it's a huge huge Market You don't get to own your customer So if you bought unbound marino on amazon because we're on there I would never know a mere rosa bought it. I wouldn't have your email I wouldn't have any access to you it gets fulfilled through amazon and amazon just cakes all that data and They find like the the products that are doing really well and then when they see an opportunity They go and make amazon basics version. They undercut you in price and they squeeze you out of your the search algorithm And your big sales just drop one day and you never know any of those customers were So I'd rather go the hard way find them ourselves get them on our own website Build our email list and we have access to that customers that email Email is the most powerful marketing you have I have a two Things touch base on that I agree for email. I don't know if that's going to be the most powerful going in the future I think there's diminishing returns on Email as of late. I disagree We can I can agree to disagree. Okay um Number two. Yeah, I'm quite aware of amazon basics. I even have a story to share about that I was looking for a dslr bag because my dslr broke for my ken camera I go on amazon and I'm not paying attention. I'm like, oh, there's a fucking dslr bag order Comes to my house and I'm hoping I'm like, what the fuck is amazon basic? I wasn't even paying attention because I saw it looked identical to the canon stuff Yeah, like the same look same shape. I'm like amazon basic might even be made in the same factory I wouldn't be surprised, right? So I'm like, yeah, there you go. They're undercutting top performing products Your product is a commodity. It's nothing special. Everyone knows the factory It's made and you just go in there and your amazon you undercut it But I was wondering if you ever considered this is kind of off off cuff but creating kind of like a a lost leader product on amazon Where you're not selling your main stuff or something like low-hanging fruit of brand awareness some Someone's had given me that idea before and I remember thinking that's kind of interesting but It just doesn't seem worth it to me because We're gonna have to go and invest money Like why did I just invest money in in all the other marketing that we're doing which we're getting good at and we can just get straight to the point which is acquiring a customer that We have access to instead of Putting a good product that makes our brand look good on amazon and just like Letting amazon you have to compete them with people's heuristics of the fact that amazon has free shipping Yeah, so amazon has set the bar For all e-commerce on what's reasonable and it's very hard to live up to that Amazon prime is Amazing it is unbelievable. I love it. Yeah. I mean I hate amazon. Okay, you know, I don't go home today I know there's a prime box of stuff It's so fast. It's so good And it changes people's perception of what is bare minimum of what they should expect for for delivery. So you have to try to at least be Somewhat within that realm. So we have very fast And free us shipping if you spend over 150 over 150. Okay. Yeah, which we may lower eventually but Because of the way we sell stuff in bundles and it tends it's a relatively expensive product our average order size is bigger than that most people will spend over 150 And it's pretty fast and we can in cheap in canada tooth We are not competing with amazon if you're shipping Europe. It's expensive and it takes a little bit We'll get there if somehow but yeah, that's like the goal you have to you have to Try to live up to the unrealistic expectations of you're not the first one that's told me that they Have actually known people who've taken their product off of amazon Yeah It's just a scary place There's nothing redeeming about Jeff Bezos as a human. I mean, I mean he's super impressive like What he has done and how many people can do has done and the power he has is insane But I don't look at him like like a bill gates where he's using his Power and skill and ability to execute for you know, he did microsoft changed the world now. He's You know eradicating diseases and trying to reinvent how toilets work in third world countries and all this amazing stuff Jeff Bezos is just trying to squeeze profit out of some small to medium company in Toronto, you know, it doesn't care you're making uh camera bags Because the in your son on amazon They'll do it they'll do it cheaper and you have no control Oh, you mentioned you're on Shopify. They take a percentage too I don't mind if you take a percentage they got to make money but Shopify has done nothing but provide tools And I fucking love Shopify. They say What Toby has built is phenomenal Yeah, I am the you know I I live on king street and from my back on my my balcony I can see Shopify office and like I can see that like Shopify bag logo like and gone And I sometimes at night I just stare at him like I am so I love that company And I'm just grateful that I can see it for my balcony. I got so much. I love it I just love looking at like I am so grateful that it's down the street from me What that company does and I know people that work there and like I just I love it But that first store we made I told you when those orders came in We're at Starbucks. We just took the photography we had from a crowdfunding campaign and We pieced together A store based on a Shopify template and I was Heavily involved in making that website. I don't know anything about web development I not an ounce of information and I was a big part of whipping together that store which all of a sudden was selling product. It's like so easy to get started and the data they give you is so helpful and It's just such an amazing platform like I love it. So I'm happy to be on there. It's not It's competitive with anywhere else that you put your product on and I don't know where else you can put your product I don't know. There's other like platforms you can have you can use square space and some of that Or you go and code your own e-click. I don't understand. I just do what it is. Is Shopify so good I don't even understand why or how you have the network effect man Shopify, especially with the like one of the called Growth geniuses, you know, I'm talking about those like dead helpers. You can call them 24 seven Yeah, the customer service is outstanding. Yeah, access to experts is outstanding So many stores are using Shopify that the checkout has become very familiar to a lot of people Yes. So when I look at what I think is our like stock looking Shopify checkout At first I was kind of like this is amateur because ours should look more on brand No People are comfortable with the Shopify checkout. It's so ubiquitous The Shopify is just another one of those companies just makes life easy I don't like without Indiegogo and Shopify like how would we run this business? This was 15 years ago I would have to have like big money and big power to go into Have the balls to go into the clothing industry To start any commerce store like it doesn't make sense. This is it. Yeah, it's interesting man When you think about like Entrepreneurship is becoming a lower barrier to entry very low. Yes, you just have to rely on your ability to Convince the customer that what you have Is what they will benefit from And do it in a way that I want to say convince like for example You we talked about this timing and number two you found a product that's solving a problem Yeah, right when you have to convince that's artificially there's that marketing saying you can turn You can turn like was it like silver to gold but you can't turn like Or was it you can shine silver to gold but you can't turn copper into gold something like Marketing can only take a product so far artificially Until it gets diminishing returns Yeah, but if you have a real product that's solving a deep rooted pain that people have in this case is like Well, yeah, people travel people sweat People are tired of bringing 10 pieces of clothes. You know, I was in my honeymoon last year. I can relate understand It's like fuck. I can wear three shirts as opposed to bringing 10 I'm in and do what else like works for us is the fact that And this is I think a an advantage we have it's just being an I guess a Sumer package goods kind of product is Yeah, you might only need two shirts for that trip But those shirts are not going to last you forever and if you like the shirts, you might also like the long sleeve Underwear or sweat or hoodie this this is the crew Sweat shirt. We're just coming out next week. Like there's we have the ability to Market more products and the same products to the same people, you know, I think of it like lucky hair Unbelievable business, but I guarantee they don't have People that have bought 15 times for them in three years. So many 70 hair extensions So as long as the product is really good, we have a really long potentially a really long lifetime with that customer Yeah, well, well you did something really strategically clever is you took the word marino and you Baked it into your brand name. Yeah Why do you say that's clever because I'll I'll dispel the myth about what's so clever, but it's not that clever Well, to me, I view it as it's an it's a it's a material that's used Uh, it's going to get a lot of natural searches on google Uh, the actual usage of it globally speaking is like there might be other companies Using marino. Yes, but you have it baked into your actual brand, right? That's clever to me. Yeah Yeah, that was a thought the real reason we did it is because it was easier to get the trademark You couldn't get unbound Unbound apparel way harder, but like think about it. No, we were thinking like yeah, we're we're positioning because You know to us We felt a lot of people Don't really know what marino exactly there was we found there was two types of people There were people who knew it and those were the outdoors type of people or the athletic type of people And I met a few of them and like I have so much marino wool stuff. I love it. It's all I wear But that was a very very small nation people. Yeah most people They had no idea I mean they might have heard of marino wool, but they were thinking of tukes and scarfs I think it was very woolly and if they first out. Is it itchy? They don't realize it's super fine It's like we're in a cotton shirt Or they just like they didn't realize it could be that fine that it's like a t-shirt Like how is that wool? Does it make sense? Is it like have those woolly fibers? They just had no idea and then when you teach them about what it is and they try and they see it's like a really comfortable like breathable awesome shirt that performs like that We were converting people so because we had that converted enough people from indiegogo we had that like word of mouth it started but We were really thinking using the word marino in in the brand name because that was part of what we were Trying to accomplish in the marketing is teaching people for the first time that marino wool is their new favorite t-shirt Material like it's not cotton you know what I mean it's not Casually, I don't know or like you definitely not like a synthetic like polyester those are terrible for the environment They feel clammy in your skin they They could be anti odor, but they're just like they're it's actually not a good feeling material um So yeah, that was like our our mission is teaching people for the first time what marino wool is and how we'll benefit them what have you been uh What has been your best as of late? user acquisition channel um The thing that we went hard on from the get-go is facebook ads which is Been unbelievable But we did all we hired a consultant to teach us How to get started on it, but we did because we because of my previous experience in our old company with video production and and Also by way of that photography could do our own ads one of my business partners that created was a creative director at an ad agency So we could do some copywriting So we felt like we can do our own ads But we just need to learn the facebook ads platform and because we had 2 000 customers from crowdfunding We were able to create look-alike audiences of people who already bought our stuff and target Those look alike. So the one the of all people in usa Who are the 1% who have the most similar online shopping behavior to the people who already bought our stuff but are not those And you know, sometimes I would see these uh news reports of zuckerberg, you know testifying and selling your data to Cambridge Analytica and how they know everything that you're doing all this stuff and I'm like, yeah That's kind of it's kind of gross, but also on the other end That gave opportunities to people like me to compete with huge brands Because we can be more clever in how we target Then customer Find new customers be creative in our ad copywriting and our photography we use And we got really really deep into that and that was the main source of new traffic for us and When we first started they performed incredibly and it's gotten a little bit more competitive, but it's still good in the process of that, um We invested in seo and which we rank On front page google for most search terms that took like two years to get there Um, we're just starting with some google ads google ad words and we're doing some pr stuff just to get Articles out there. I mean, you know, we've been written up forbs fast company and wall street journal that I don't it's just all it's We just always live under the assumption that there's no one way to acquire customers That's going to last for too long basic ads has been glorious to us and it's still really good But I don't think it's going to be that good in a few years And I think if anyone is trying to sell a product online, they should be at or down right now Because it's good. It's still really good But we are afraid like if this is all we have what else is there? So that's why we started dabbling in pr and we tried to make sure seo it's the it's the four leg stool analogy Yeah, take off one. Well, the thing is like if people rely on just one leg you take that out Yeah, you got nothing. You got nothing if you got four legs on a stool you diversify. Yeah, yeah, and uh Yeah, just try and but the we talked about this before and you said you don't think it's the be all end all and I said I disagree the Crown jewel of all marketing is And we work hard Get that email list. No, don't get me wrong. Listen, I think email still is the most powerful way To control your audience to have a one-to-one direct communication. I just think The ROI that people talk about it's going to be on a diminishing return Perhaps but it's so much more powerful because when we send an email out now, you know, we have tens of thousands on our email list It generates so much because these are people. They're all people who are interested in your stuff or a lot of your stuff Have you experimented with text messages? No, that sounds creepy Why I don't know they opt in Maybe maybe I don't know is that a thing people do that big time. I'd be super pissed if company are you opt in? Yeah, you're giving permission. Like, yeah, here's my phone number. I want to receive a discount. It's like Gary v does it with With his new wine company is called the text wine.com or wine text something that and he gives you a deal wine deal a day in your text message You know, like, yeah, I want this great deal Yeah, that's interesting. I should look into that look into just finding any of those little things and and It seemed bleak for a little bit because nothing was taking off like Facebook ads But slowly if you just keep at it something started now Facebook ads is still the most Dominant but I would say 40% and these are rough numbers, but 40% of our our new customers are required through Facebook ads I'd about 30% would be Organic search which is much better than it was a year ago. It's huge. That's great. It's intense search That's great. Yeah, but searching for our brand but also like a lot of it's searching for Merino will t-shirt sure not for us, but we come up high now And then a good chunk of the rest of it is word of mouth And returning customers so It's a nice spread AdWords and Google ads will see how that pans out. I don't know how PR relief plays into the percentage But that's been we had like when we're at fast company Selling out of everything Selling out of everything huge, but sometimes we're in We were in Forbes and like didn't really do much for sales, but it looks cool Let me ask a question about skews. Is there a strategy you guys determine what type of sizes for skews? Because that's a big issue too. Yeah, we work with our accountant who's just been a massive help to us in Really crunching the numbers what we sell Gets into it. So just trying to figure out like What are the patterns what moves? Yeah, yeah, and we just try to order based on that It's always a struggle because you don't want to overorder of course, then you're sitting on stock. Yeah But yeah, that hasn't been the biggest problem For us, it's about What new products should we roll out and I think because we originally identified the problem Or the the gap in the market that allowed us to think this is a good idea for a business Uh We do feel kind of like we're our own core customer and we know what we want next So we rely on our own gut intuition along what comes out next but we always it's very simple and we roll out very few skews And everything that we roll out is there's no seasonality like If we overorder we'll sell through it eventually It's not like we have to clear out the spring summer like our stuff is plain black t-shirts or plain gray And it it it looked fine if you were wearing it 10 years ago. It looks good today. It's gonna look good in 10 years. So The change in fashion won't affect it The season won't affect it because it's a travel product. So it doesn't matter if it's Like february is our best-selling month of the year. I still don't fully know why so what do you guys? You have t-shirts you have hoodies. Yeah, we have sweatshirts like this. We just release button-down shirts Underwear socks back in the sock business. Yes Full circle. Yeah. Yeah, they're less funky now. That's right in every way But what's the future man? What any big plans with a company or Anything that we should know about? Um Actually people have asked me this A bunch like what where you take it, you know friends will ask me like what do you do? I'm like, honestly, I I feel like I have so many years ahead of me of just rolling out product. I'm not trying to Create the next Zara Like we don't ever want to be in stores. We do all e-commerce really no stores at all zero The only reason we want to be in a store is because a lot of people when they find out we're in Toronto Some people want to like come and try a shirt on and it's annoying. You're not going to come to our warehouse. It's not set up like that. You guys gonna learn mechs or something I don't know. I think of maybe getting into one store just so if Toronto people ask And they want to go try and they can go try it on. Yeah, and that's just to deal with like The annoyance factor of emails coming sure let them do but that's the only reason Maybe one day and I don't even know why like it Maybe if there's a we found a good use case for why we want to do this We'd have our own unbound store that's years out Or not anywhere close to thinking of that right now But if that's good for the brand And it makes some kind of business sense I think it would be pretty cool if we had a store like you can start in Toronto or You know, maybe we do like Toronto, New York, Shanghai And I don't know how much of that is because that would be a smart move Like, you know, Indochino has their like showrooms exactly. Yeah And how much of that would just be like the cool factor of the hell We have a store like it would be cool But we'll cross that bridge when we get there We just want to create new products and our focus for what we roll out is Eventually If you go traveling anywhere You could have your entire carry on bag be full of unbound Only unbound clothing and it would solve like Every it would fill every purpose So if you're going out for so like a fancy date or like a business being like any kind of situation, there's The unbound version of that which is classic always looks good Super high performance super high quality All of the things that make it high performance will be a factor in it So we have so many products roll out like we already have the next two years Products and that won't even that's just scratching the surface And that's how long it takes us to self fund our own stuff if we ever got an investor, maybe we could roll out way faster, but honestly I It's going in a good direction. We're running it super lean, which is the With the result of learning from my mistakes from my first business where we grew the business so fast and it was just like We were dumb mid 20s No idea what we're doing and all of a sudden we had a staff of 18 people to sell 100 grand a month to keep the lights on and I was like So tired all the time. So this business is like lean, but it's scaling Like what do I need to do like some maybe one day I'd sell it, but why I don't I I'm not like Drawn to selling it. I mean, that'd be cool to get a big cash payout, but I'm not really doing It for the cash I want it I wanted to make good money because if it can why would you not want to make money? But I'm not motivated by the money. I'm just liking building the thing process It's just so fun and I like building something. I'm proud of like I actually like this I like when my I have so many friends that Wear exclusively our stuff and it makes me feel good that we created something that Turn people on to a different way of thinking about their own clothing and it's uh It's a more environmental approach. You know if you're a washing machine on less it's less mental clutter like if you like there are people who buy 10 of our You know 10 medium black crew necks and that's all they have in their closet every day They're putting on a black crew net because they don't want to Think about what outfit to wear. They just want to put on a shirt. They know this is quality They don't have to have their washing machine run They're kind of changing like in a small way the way people look at their clothing and that feels cool because it's It was a change that I came across myself and we do it better than other people I feel good about it. And I'm just I think I'm in it for Quite a while. I can't I I don't see the end in the near future of me just being rolling out products and Building it and trying to get better Well Demsky, I appreciate you sharing your story, man. Hey, it's cool to be you know If people want to get more information about unbound and what you do. What's the best resource? Unbound marino dot com. So unbound un bo und marinos m er i no dot com or on instagram and We're on twitter, but not really Probably should be more but yeah All right guys and gals. Thank you for listening for another episode of amir approved Like always if you're watching this on youtube Please leave a comment like and share and if you're listening this on itunes google and all those nice podcast spots Please leave a review each review helps and you can catch this episode on amirrosik.com in the near future Where you can see all the show notes and etc. Until next time guys. Have a great day and talk to you guys soon later