 Good morning everyone and welcome to Open Belgium. I want to quickly thank our three main sponsors, Mono Design, Microsoft, and Agentschab, Binaland Spistur for making this possible. Now, without further ado, I want to give the floor to Raph. Thank you for the introduction, Astrid. Good morning and all of you are welcome in our session about personal data governance, which of course is crucial in the context of a fair data economy. I'm Raph Berlen working at the Digital Flanders Agency. I'm also a member of the Board of Open Knowledge Belgium. Now, I would like to introduce you to Harry van der Velden. Harry is a stunning visual harvester who will capture our talks and visualize the core ideas about personal data governance on the whiteboard, which Christophe will share via the chat. Also, I would like to introduce Christophe Kopp. Christophe has a background in neuro-behavioral sciences, statistics, and data science. Actually, he was the founder and curator of Tannex Flanders co-founded by the Belgian Pirate Party. Since January this year, he actually joined Gronos to set up a company around solid consulting. To accelerate this paradigm about putting citizens of their data and making this paradigm shift a reality. Christophe, the floor is yours. Hello. Good morning, everybody, and thank you Raph for introducing me. I will briefly give the introduction of today on what's on the agenda and what we're going to talk about, and then I'll hand over the floor back to Raph later. I will now share my screen and I hope everything works well. Voila. Just a second. Okay. Voila. So today is actually the topic is on towards data trust, and this is the agenda, but we will see this later as well. So I'll start the presentation now. First, we need to know indeed what we are talking about. So I will explain the broad scope of what the implications are and why we are talking about person-centric ecosystem and how to get citizens in control of their data. Then we will zoom in on this possible new ecosystem. Within that ecosystem, we will talk today about the data cooperative or the data trust within the ecosystem. For that data trust, we will discuss four major let's say aspects or key aspects. We will talk about the business, the legal, the technological, and the organizational aspects that are important to start such a cooperative. During my presentation, you will find some working definitions and they are indicated by the orange diamond. The broad scope. So the internet is quite an unregulated space. Well, at least what WWW and the internet are. That means that we don't have an actual governance layer. Currently, we are more in a platform model where big companies, the GAFAM actually has most access to our data. Where we think that just like the MyData model, a user-centric version of internet is needed and this is what we want to achieve. Roughly speaking, there are three, well, two existing paradigms and we want to introduce a possible third one. So the first paradigm is that, what I call the American paradigm, where big corporations have control over personal data and much other data as well. The second paradigm, we should call it the Chinese model where data is mostly in control by the government. Then there might be a third model for which there is already some legislation in Europe, where we think, okay, a user-centric model of data would be appropriate and it is this paradigm where we'll be thinking in today. Within this paradigm, there is a whole possible ecosystem. One, the persons, of course, who have the data, have access to their data and can give access to other people and other companies. There will be applications which show the visualizations and the insights coming from that data. There are companies using that data as well. They can reprocess it and get insights for themselves. Of course, there will be regulations on the data traffic regulation, the data request rules and actions against violations of data traffic done by governments. There will be a need for pod providers where the data is stored and handled carefully and securely. And then of course, there will be companies that are app developers. There might still also appear unknown roles and new players to this emerging field as this paradigm takes shape. Today, we focus on the data intermediaries and more specifically, the data intermediaries organized by people and for people, the data trust or data cooperative. A data cooperative system within the ecosystem. So what should we think about? How can we make an organization for the people, buy people who unite and share their data amongst themselves so that it can be process and valuable insights can be shared? And then this indeed holds four different aspects, business-wise, legal, technological and organizational. On the business side, we have the data trust. The data trust is a group or entity that indeed takes a stewarding of the data. Why? Because of course, you just like, you don't like to click away cookies or to fill out all the access sharing requests that you get when you visit the website. You don't want to have that as a burden during your day. So you want to delegate it to a company or an organization and why not a corporate. As they act as a data fiduciary, that means that as an organization, you determine the purpose and means of processing of that personal data and sharing. Some roles that the business will probably need to take and which can be discussed today is indeed data hosting, data processing, sharing, gathering and that in a data collaborative as in data intermediary. There are of course already people and organizations like mydata.org who have taught about different data stewardship models. So it is indeed also part of the exercise today to think which data stewardship model do we opt or which do we think is best fitted for a collective of people who bring their data together. Legal aspects, while the data governance act while not in effect already, it is under construction. And indeed they provide a legislation for this data sharing intermediaries to take place. So which aspects should we take into account from that side? And finally, these which legal entity do we need to found or construct? These are just the Belgian ones that we can get that we can use to have a legal entity, but of course there is always the option to choose for others as well. Some technical aspects as people will be sharing data amongst themselves and aggregate data. That means that there will be at least a temporary space where this data gets stored and processed so that the insights can be shared or sold or in other ways used by our data trust. So the question is how should we organize this to avoid again centralization that all the data gets stored together by the corporation or by the organization that we found, but still that it is possible that we have all this data processing going on. On a technical level as well, so there will be roughly two types of data that will be resulting from the data processing. First of course is the general insights that come on a population level where you aggregate information and get real insights on a group level or on a let's say consumer group level that then can be either kept as IP or can be sold or marketed. On the other side you have derived personal information. For example, from your clicking behavior you might have an estimation of your personality profile which of course need to be stored again on your own data space. Another thing to consider is the consent profiles. As some data you wish to share freely amongst everybody whilst other are highly confidential and probably need more restrictions and access management. Given that we have an organization that wants to be collaborative and cooperative the organization structure should be flat and aspects of consensus decision making include participation, egalitarianism, inclusion, collaboration and cooperation. Then of course we should also ask the question what are the roles of the members who wish to participate in this cooperative and what do they want to contribute, need to contribute, should contribute and what could they get back in return as insights, as gain benefits, would it be monetary, would it be services or would it be just let's say basic insights. So these are, this is for setting the stage of today. I hope this is a little bit clear and I will now give back the words to Raph. Thank you Christoph for this introduction and giving us an insight in the broader domain of personal data governance. Now I would like to introduce our next speaker, Vivi. Vivi is a data policy fellow at the World Economic Forum. Also she's a special advisor in data policy at the city of Helsinki. Researcher at University of Helsinki and Alta University and also senior advisor at MyData Global. Vivi, thank you for joining us and we're looking forward to your insights about personal data governance. The floor is yours. Thank you so much Raph for the introduction. I indeed wear many, many hats and I am here mainly with my MyData hat on and I'm going to talk to you a little bit about the Data Governance Act which is currently being prepared in the European Union. I had the pleasure yesterday of being heard by the ITRA Committee of the European Parliament on the Data Governance Act so I'm going to share some of the thoughts with you that I also shared with the members of the Parliament and the ITRA Committee yesterday. So let me just pull up my screen and share that. Okay, so that's me, hi. So here with my MyData Global hat on, senior advisor, I've been around MyData for several years with different roles but at the moment I'm providing advice mainly on kind of global and European and also finish level policy as well as supporting the thought leadership development at MyData Global. So today I want to share a couple of thoughts about the EU Data Governance Act and MyData operators as entities which are being governed by or will be governed by this act. So first I'll just say a couple of general words about the Data Governance Act or the DGA then about MyData and MyData operators then how these two connect as data sharing service providers in the DGA and finally some agenda points that MyData has for improving the DGA as it becomes law. So the Data Governance Act was announced in the European Strategy for Data in February last year as a legislative framework for the governance of government European data spaces. It was proposed by the commission in November and is currently being considered by the European Parliament and the European Council. And there are actually two versions that I've seen at the moment. So there's the original proposal by the commission and a version with proposed amendments or first version with proposed amendments by the council. So I might refer to one or the other as I go along here. So there are also very similar or similar sounding things happening in Europe. So I just wanted to make sure that we're talking about the same thing. So the Data Governance Act is one thing but it is not the Digital Services Act which regulates online intermediary services in order to counter illegal goods services or content online. There's also the Digital Markets Act which regulates large online platforms as gatekeepers. And also in the data strategy of last year there was the announcement of the Data Act 2021 but that's something whose content we don't yet know. But the Data Governance Act is something other than these and I'll briefly describe what it contains in just a little bit. So just to make sure everyone is aware of what MyData is all about as well I wanted to show this slide. So the MyData mission is for a fair, sustainable and prosperous digital society through a human-centric approach to personal data. And you can see the MyData logo there in the middle with the person at the center in different sectors in which data about us gets amassed every day. So this Digital Society that MyData works towards is one where people get value from their data and set the agenda on how it's used. And for organizations and companies the ethical use of data is always the most attractive option. So this is what we're for. MyData Global as an organization is an international non-profit. We're headquartered in Finland founded a little over two years ago. Membership includes individual people as well as organizations from different sectors of society and from over 50 countries. MyData Global also has, I think it's exactly 30 local hubs on six continents as well as international groups that are formed around specific themes such as MyData operators that I'll be touching on next. So MyData operators are one way to think about data governance and providing infrastructure for data ecosystems. So MyData operators are the kind of entities that connect the person with the ecosystem of data where data sources and data using services access and use and enrich and in general process the data about this person. So it's pretty clear that in a system where one would have to control one's relationship to every single data source or data using service my entire life would be all about managing those relationships but MyData operators are data intermediaries that can help manage that and help people exercise meaningful control over the data about them. MyData operators are the kinds of things that the Data Governance Act seeks to regulate as data intermediaries or as they're currently their phrased data sharing service providers. We work with dozens of organizations who've gone through a process and been awarded the MyData operator 2020 award. So these are real companies offering real services right now around the world and many of them also in Europe. So these are the kinds of things and I'm realizing that I'm running a little bit long here. So these are the kinds of things that MyData operators can do not all of them do all of these things but all of them do some of these things but I won't go through them in detail. So I promised to say a little bit about the DGA and its contents. So it's basically three different things. The beef of the legislation is really in chapters two, three and four and our focus as MyData Global is on chapter three requirements applicable to data sharing services. So these the data sharing service providers have been defined in this council amended version as service providers which through the provision of technical, legal and other services establish relationships between an undetermined number of data holders and data users for the exchange pooling or trade of data. And they in the again I'll quote from the amended council version they're also described as making available the technical or other means to enable the exercise of the rights provided for in the GDPR. So data cooperatives on the other hand are defined as something distinct from these data sharing service providers that I just described. So data cooperatives are organizations that support data subjects or one person companies who are members and who confer the power to the cooperative to negotiate terms and conditions for data processing before they consent. So these are the two different kinds of entities that are envisioned in the DGA. And I'll really quickly go through some of the things that we at my data global have noticed that would make this act even better. So these are the inclusion of rights holders in the definitions of a clear and wide scope of application of this act and some focused requirements like interoperability for data intermediaries. Sorry. So at the moment only data holders and data users and these data intermediaries are defined in the act and as my data we find it incredibly important for harmonization with the GDPR that the rights holders the people themselves are included. The clear and wide scope should be pretty kind of it's almost obvious to say that the scope should be very, very clear and it should be set out in the articles and the point about the wide scope is to really make sure that this act captures all actual relevant and foreseeable future data sharing activities that currently exist in the market like the ones that we work with at my data global. And third the focus requirements such as interoperability for these data intermediaries can serve the purpose of keeping the playing field level for all kinds of actors so we don't end up with gatekeepers if we have functional interoperability requirements and this also provides for consumer choice. So I'll conclude there. These are the recommendations that my data global has. We've gone through the act in quite a lot of detail and there's much more I could say about it. But these are the key things that we feel could make the act even better than it currently is. So I'll stop there. Thank you very much. So thank you Vivi for the insight as well as the recommendations which will be also discussed during our panel discussion. I'm very curious for what Harry did with our talks and how he captured them on the whiteboard. Christoph currently we quickly zoom in on the on Harry's whiteboard. Just a second. I'll first try and present a little second. Sorry Isabel. So let me share what Harry is currently doing. Voila. If I'm correct, it's also in the chat. You can see the link in the chat and follow it during the talks. So currently Harry is drawing and you see it appear on the screen and we have our nice first visualization of what I said during the introduction and you can see as it appears what Vivi told about the Data Governments Act. Wow, look stunning. Now we will jump to our next speaker, Isabel De Sieger. Isabel is a medical doctor as well as a computer scientist with over 25 years of experience in healthcare IT including data standards big data and digital health. Isabel is an active member of my data and co-leading my data for epidemics as well as she's working on everything that's concerned with individual data profiles within the context of health. Isabel, great that you could join us. We are looking forward to your presentation and insights and the floor is yours. Thank you Rafa and thank you for inviting me to this panel. I think it's great to see progress moving on something which I personally believe and I think many of us believe it's extremely important which is giving more power to the individual and what I want to do today is to come in some concrete use case. I think we've been discussing in the previous presentation of the different aspects and Vivi went into the regulation. What would that mean from a practical perspective in the situation which is very close to all of us which is pandemics. What I really want to go to discuss today is how we can come with problem centric solutions that are powered by individual centric data intermediary and I want to take that in the case specifically of responsible movement during the pandemics and that's the work that we've been doing in the context of one of my data a thematic group which is my data for pandemics. So pandemics come and go. Experts expect more, more contagious and more lethal outbreaks in the year to come. So guys we are not at the end of this to have scalable solution to manage those outbreaks. More specifically in the context of this presentation I'm going to talk about the problem of responsible movement. What we want to do is to maximise responsible freedom of movement during pandemics or pandemics before there is testing and vaccination while ensuring human rights are respected. Outside of break we have normal freedom of movement. During an outbreak as you know we've been completely locked on what we want to do is responsible movement and those one would actually be the rules around that would be scaled on when the pandemics goes but what is very important is that we can scale it up when there is a new outbreak. No responsible movement requires data and a lot of data and certainly personal data. During the COVID outbreak there's been many breaches around data privacy. In April and March 2020 journalists identified 34 countries with data privacy breach and in some case very heavy. By the way in Belgium we are absolutely not better on 12th of this year our government issue a low where it basically can complete breach of data privacy even in breach of what the WHO recommend. By low in the monitor Belgium the government asked the possibility to combine identification residency employment contact and travel data in the context of COVID without individual consent. By the way COVID is expected to become an pandemic and therefore that low will remain applicable for a long long time. And I don't know how you feel about it but I personally do not feel comfortable at all about that. No let's dig down about the issue about data and managing data in the context of pandemics. Today and I think you mentioned that Christoph we are mostly able to work with population data and therefore there is a lack of integration on different data sources at individual level and we cannot really get good actionable insight because we cannot segment at the individual level. And obviously working with population data it's a balance between respect of human rights and a need to have access to the right data. Those issues derive from the lack of reliable infrastructure for sharing personal data and the lack of trust in institution holding those personal data. So we need to find out a solution. Before looking at solution let's maybe again a little bit more in the problem. We have problem centric approach to data today we look at counter tracing then we look at travel then we look at vaccination we all look at those things in silo and we collect data in silo. Those data need to actually be integrated at population level if we want to look at population data and if we want to integrate them they are still anonymized but we have integrated data at population level and we can put in the data comments a million of data from medical records and two two million of location and at 100,000 about employment. So we don't really compare Apple and Apple and it's very high quality but that's what today the authority have got for reporting. We as citizens are completely forgotten and very much frustrated as I'm sure we all are in the context of the conference as we have today. So summary what we have today, multiple silo data, lack of interoperability limited quality by bringing those data together no information at the citizen level or we need to infringe on data privacy. What is the suggestion that we have in my data by having that individual approach to data thanks to data intermediaries or my data operator or data cooperative, whatever we call it and let's, I will call it in the remainder of this call, a data intermediary. Isabel, your slides are not following. They are not. Are you an individual centric approach to data here? Or not? Which slide do you see? Okay. That's just my problem. Sorry. So in the individual centric approach of my data then we bring different data sources through a data intermediary with the permission of the individual into an individual problem oriented data profile for pandemics it will be the data we need for pandemics. That can, sorry, that can actually then be put together in a population data comments and here we compare Apple and Apple and it would be fast to minimize because we need some data at the beginning certainly for a month or two but there is no need to have them for all the time asked to the government in Belgium will do. You can after a certain period of time let's say two months put that in data comments and that is going to remain long-term. With this authority can have report of higher quality because the data of our quality and they could also have access for interim period to subsidize data but mostly the individual is also going to have something out of it through different score in a digital wallet and I'll come back to what would be that score in a minute. Now in this which is approach we can derive integrated problem oriented individual data profile. Individuals are in control and can share their data interest and they incentivize to share the data to increase their freedom of movement as I will show in a minute. Authorities have no need to do data privacy bridges as we do in Belgium. They have access to much high quality data and therefore they can take adaptive measure. Now let's take down in the minute in that score what is the miracle here? If you actually have access to individual data with the permission of the individual you can actually go into segmentation and that would support granular lockdown before we even have tested or vaccine. Vaccine takes 12 to 18 months so we want to have something before that and that's an example of what you could do if you have those individual data profile you can actually define rules at the government level when you look at population level you know red, orange, green zone or in addition to that you have area risk level again red, orange, green and then you can link that with patient data on the level of contagion or health and based on those different elements of information you can have different types of rules either if it's kind of the red one you need to stay home if it's dark orange you can move on if it's critical and so on and so forth so you can define different level of movement you can have based on your profile and your risk and in that case most of the people certainly in areas like us would be more in the light green and dark green that in the orange so we would have much much more freedom of movement. How will that practice really happen? Because it's all nice and beautiful but where data intermediaries are so important you certainly have heard about what is happening around the digital green path or the immunization path or vaccination path fundamentally the idea is to bring together identity, lab test or vaccination test so that information somewhere and then all of that with the permission of the individual to derive the credential that you put in your digital wallet and then you can go and travel that would be a basic infrastructure that we would need for the digital green path there are other technology but data intermediary is definitely one outside of pandemics then you can actually also through data intermediary and other services and manage your medical record, employment information store that in personal data store like solid or older but solid is definitely an important one comes the pandemic you can add new applications like contact tracing like self-assessment and start that information again in your personal data store with the permission of the individual you can derive that individual pandemic data profile I was mentioning before and with this segmentation call I'll show you you can actually come with difference call which you can use for local transportation to go to the football to go to theater to go to a restaurant if you can actually show that you have no risk and that can also the information can also then be used in those population data common for reporting so you can see with data intermediary we can put in place solution that are much much more correct for individual and we really believe that there is no need to trade data privacy for the common goods as we are doing currently in Belgium if citizens are in power they can act responsibly and they can share their data in trust with authority to jointly work on the common goods and nothing is from by data it's absolutely critical and with that I really want to take times the team which we've been who's been working with it in the context of the tenacity group so Christoph and Ralph back to you Isabel thank you for this eloquent presentation about the topic that affects us all now I would like to jump to the panel so during the panel Matthias will be the man on the clock Matthias van Komperlo is a senior researcher at the research group for media innovation and communication technologies at Gantt University and IMEX since 2013 and he's involved in the Flemish solid ecosystem but before we dive into the panel our colleagues ask me to give a brief overview of what's happening within Belgium and also about the contents of the Flemish region Ralph but can you keep the time into account we are running I see that we are running yes I'm looking yes we are running six minutes behind scheme so I will limit this little bridge to two minutes so we'll know that Christoph can you share the slides to support this small interludium so thank you Christoph so we all know that in September President van der Leiden stated that the State of the Union explained the importance of putting users in control of their personal data also things about personal data vaults were in the Flemish coalition agreement and also the President Jan Jan Bon emphasised on putting citizens in control again in the September declaration I think since late 2018 the Flemish government started experimenting with solid so with a personal data vault you can call it an online memory stick for personal data and they did it in the context of the Flemish citizen profile where citizens can get access to the government data and meanwhile there's also a pilot which runs into a sandbox built on top of the citizens profile which allowed to share data from the public sector so the data that the government owns about it put citizens in control to reuse it within other context including the private context. The next step of the Flemish government did was to start up an ecosystem with public and private partners involved not limited to Flanders where they share the different use cases and we have many of them both from public and private sector within the context of health gov tech the context of mobility as well as media and culture and then we see that the ecosystem evolves and they're drawing a roadmap together so we see many many initiatives but now let's jump to the panel discussion so we have a stunning panel I would like to welcome professor Ruben Ferdburg professor of decentralized web technology at the internet technology and data science lab of Ghent University together with Sir Tim Berners-Lee Ruben is the driving force in the solid ecosystem that gives you back control and choice both online and offline also I would like to introduce Paul Teyskens Paul is a mass ecosystem is active in the mass ecosystem development at the department of mobility and open body he's also a digital ecosystem development architecture working on digital transformation digital marketing, digital analytics big data and involved in the my data community we ask him because he sticks out his entrepreneurial drive to make things happen in a collaborative way also I would like to welcome multi buyer Katzenberger he's a policy officer European Commission after Malta have worked at the Academy of European Law he joined the European Commission DG Connect he's working on policy related to data driven innovation including open data policy and aspects of data protection and currently he's involved in the free flow of data initiative now the focus of our debate is how to involve citizens because there is a regulation, Flemish government is investing companies and startups are putting a lot of effort in setting up this ecosystem the debate will be moderated by Kristoff and myself and Matthias will do the wrap up I would like to welcome the panel and let's kick off the debate with a first question related to the data trust and data cooperative now Sharon private data is about trust as we heard from the previous speakers now who do we trust and who do we confide not and how are we sure that our data and our trust will be not abused and to put it differently how does the data trust manage conflicts of interest or income and how does this relate to the current jurisdiction so to put it short how do we keep on trusting the trust and I would like to kick off the debate with some reflections of Vivi. Thank you so much I loved the question of trust it's definitely one of those buzzwords almost that you hear in conversations around personal data I wanted to share a thought that I found very helpful around trust working since I work in a very global context I've proudly stolen this from a colleague so not original to me I promise but basically the idea is around trust traditions and how very different communities different people within those communities have different kinds of criteria for what and whom they trust so my slightly counterintuitive answer to how do we trust is actually interoperability interoperability means that we have the choice to trust the kind of actor that we feel comfortable with I trust my bank to provide my login credentials other countries prefer to use their telcos their governments or some sort of community managed systems and I think that's a good thing plurality is a good thing and the fact that these different systems could work together through interoperability is actually what enables these different kinds of trust to flourish when it comes to personal data so there's my thought there thank you Vivi yes interoperability is indeed very crucial and I'm curious about the insight about this topic from Malta yes good morning to all and thank you for having me on this panel I'm following my data since I read the paper I think in 2015 and have seen the organization grow and happy to see some known faces here in the call I should also say that well probably one of the drivers to get the my data approach into the data governance act which is the legislative proposal that Vivi so perfectly presented early on which really offloads a bit of task of here and I'm so to say also my data ambassador within the organization and something which is not an easy task for many people out there this topic is still quite futuristic and I think events like these help to understand as the benefits and I was particularly also intrigued by Isabelle's presentations on this one the inspiration in article 9 and 11 of the proposal is actually to drive trust in novel data intermediaries it has been modeled around some of the known business and architectural models that we knew and it certainly goes by a certain division of labor or if you want separation of functions so that we we see if you take another the solid initiative as one model that the pods are the infrastructure and services should wrap around this infrastructure and there's other startups in Europe that have been trying to to build this now for some years with the evident problem of rolling it out to a mass market in the absence of a big marketing budget or a big partner in this and that's maybe also one of the things we can look at here in this panel but the trust in the in the regulation as we have designed it should come mainly from the separation of functions and roles that you are not able to well combine services on top of the data directly with the provision of the of the infrastructure and this is a message I would say also to big tech companies who love vertical integration and built really big empires around integrating everything into a very convenient ecosystem and it basically says if we if we mean human centricity and control we need to bring out these functions as we also have to bring out identity out of ecosystems and make them self-standing services in the data economy and then the services that build on identification and on personal data wallets can come on top what we now the second distinction I think that we make is between these individualistic type of approaches and the community based approaches that we we heard from Christoph in the beginning the cooperatives and here I think this if the parties are futuristic the cooperatives are even more futuristic for many decision makers and that's a problem also when you're going to discuss legislation but we certainly understand that for many many context community decisions are much more appropriate on data so we have basically have a place in the data governance act for a level playing field regulation on cooperatives but knowing also that a lot of things have to be worked out how are they established what's the internal governments and certainly and that's my last point what can the cooperative do on behalf of the individual and what rights remain your individual rights and that's that's I think there's still a frontier to decide what rights I can exercise even if the majority in the cooperative decides to do a can I still have a right to say no I don't follow the majority vote here and I can still do whatever I wanted on an interval to data question these are maybe the broad level question that we still need to figure out and really last point also invitation to and colleagues at the university funders to influence the Belgian position on the politics because this is the regulation is moving really now and we certainly welcome the also the idea to work on interoperability as a criterion as VV said and we also here we need maybe a member state or a member of parliament to bring this to the process the file has basically lost our control we're accompanying the VGA file in the legislative process but we we need initiatives from from the countries to bring any modification to the table and I think proactive work is needed because this fast this file really moves along very fast and we should have the right regulation for my data thanks a lot thank you Malta and actually mentioning that indeed that the cooperative that is still more futuristic than the idea of personal data control and I would like to direct my next question to Isabel if we start now today finding such a cooperative which should be the first let's say baby steps we should take a logical first steps because given that you already have experience with building this COVID applied mechanism if you want to put it a bit broader or put it in operation which are the first steps you're still muted Isabel thanks thank you Christoph and just to put it straight it's not yet in place I think we're really trying to put all those different steps to make sure it is going to happen in working on the next pandemic no I think the first step for me is education frankly the problem is not so much about available technology yes solid is not yet completely there yes they time to me you are not completely there my data operator but they are still there's quite a lot of component available the problem is lack of understanding what I explained to you I don't think it's clear for many people certain decision maker because you need a certain amount of data literacy and I always love Ruben when you make your presentation as well because it is so clear that we need to do things differently with the data and that needs to be more decision maker will and I'm not looking to say authorities it's everybody who has to take the decision so the first thing is education on what can be done differently with the data we have today it goes that it's what going to drive I think the money is simply to actually do this the second thing I believe we need to do is really to actually show it so it can work and how it can work and develop pilots and then obviously for me the third point is further supporting what we are doing in my data with the my data operator and make sure it is happening and by the way it is happening if you look at the my data operator it's not that much futuristic anymore yes it's not perfect but there are solutions that are already in place and pod is pushing very much on mobility and pushing on pandemics we have to keep all of people believing it and pushing and Ruben is pushing authority let's keep doing it and show it can be done it's more a will than the technology thank you thank you Isabel and yes we can so I was wondering and also when Christoph was asking his question what is the biggest opportunity and Ruben what do you think is the biggest opportunity in this context and how can we evolve the different players in the ecosystem Ruben I think you're still on mute yep test one two yes well I think the biggest opportunity is in tackling use cases that have benefits on both sides and I think so far we have not been talking too much one sided about the problem like okay sure personal data shoot stars for individual I'm on board with that however we need use cases where companies today also have a problem and that's how it works because we shouldn't be too naive about any of this none of it will work if it's not a decent economic model behind all of this and the so as far as it comes to data organization a focus on the individual yes that makes a lot of sense but it comes to solutions we need to look at both sides and all sides of the story are not going to get anywhere so the opportunities to me are concrete use cases where we can make a difference and there's that there's plenty of them I mean just to start with one that we use every day for instance supermarkets right like it's it's very one side of the moment like my supermarket collects data about me and they use it well actually if I have the data of all the shopping I do only on offline and if I'm willing to share that with different parties there might be more in it for me for instance they win because they have more data that helps them to get insights and I win because they might give me better deals and it's these use cases these opportunities that excite me where there's a win for multiple parties on different sides thank you Ruben for this insight I also was wondering as Paul is an ecosystem expert what his thoughts are on this matter I agree fully with what Ruben says there's two sides that need to have benefits in this story as a digital transformation consultant and as we see on the internet focusing on the use of problems is always the highest pain points discovering in the customer journey the pain points of the individual is key to what we do but of course you need to recognize from the other side the pain points that you can solve and what business this generates for instance in Finland they implemented one of the first HR my data operator models and if they saved on a societal basis they saved a hundred million euros in optimizing the processes of finding workers for construction and finding IT specialists for Finland which has a shortage and of that kind of skilled workers so we have to look at it from a society you have to look at it from benefits that we can generate but still keep the focus as Isabel also said on the individual and the pain points and digital transformation is all about users and finding the business cases that evolve around that. Thank you both Kristof sometimes we hear something about monetization and data I'm sure you have a good question in my mind about this and actually I'm quite happy that Ruben already mentioned it that indeed it is both sides and finding the win and I already talked with one of the supermarkets and they were very eager to get more data they were not so eager to share their data but it's kind of that problem currently going on but also towards Paul and Ruben and maybe the others to have a coining in on that should we follow the money and should we indeed monetize a data trust that we organize as a common and if so what would be a viable business model for a data column and if not if you think it's only non-monetary gains why should we not follow the money in this sense maybe Paul first Yes this has been a big discussion and also in my data community about monetizing or not that is something we have very lengthy and it's still going on the discussion and personally I don't really believe that we have to monetize what we call currency or GDP value or any of that but we should look at the economic value of what we're doing here and in the economic value today all of us know that we have sustainable development goals and that the UN has brought forward and also in Europe we have a number of goals that we are aiming climate goals sustainable goals that all of our communities local and in Flanders are looking at and there I think we can connect to the societal and universal development goals that we all have and this is about poverty this is about energy and so from my data if you look at digital transformation from the user we have been looking at the average family spending on a yearly basis what does this go to this goes to energy for instance so if we can automate energy both as a service provider and as an individual this can save a lot of money and I think there we have to find some of the societal business cases there's been estimates by McKinsey and some of the other consultancies that estimate a 4% GDP business case for societal goals of automating low income energy providing automating that using data sharing of your local energy and focusing on the family budget and the big post in that family budget and that's where I believe that my data and personal data management we can be kind of the waste managers of eliminating waste in our society which is now still in manual people low income people who don't open up their letters don't pay utility this is waste that is now in the market that shouldn't be there and that's what I believe we should be aiming at so if I grasp it correctly it's like okay not necessarily following a profit model but following a gains model and a savings model for the benefit of society maybe if somebody else wants to chime in or has a different opinion on this Kristoff if I'm sorry go ahead Vivi okay Vivi maybe you first and then I'll give the work to Isabelle for a few minutes okay thanks yeah so like Paul mentioned this is a hot topic of conversation in the my data community and my data such doesn't have a position on this there are good arguments here and there I'd maybe want to put it into some context which I find helpful in thinking about this so if we talk about direct monetization of personal data that's basically the argument for that is to increase individuals participation in the market right they get monetary value from personal data they get a slice of the pie so to speak but the alternative where we think about people's participation and empowerment in kind of a broader sense than just the market is when we think about people as civic beings as citizens as holistic beings with other aspects that are important to them apart from the economic one then I think the monetization question kind of shrivels away and you end up putting fundamental human rights and exercise of those and empowerment through that at front and center and I find this kind of more holistic idea of participation in the democracies that we live in as well as the markets as well as other aspects a very compelling way to look at it so I find the kind of monetization question often narrows the focus too much into merely the economic sphere which is while important not the only sphere relevant okay thank you Fifi Isabel you wanted to chime in quick one being in healthcare data of huge value just the market is more than 3 billion and growing every year so I think there is value in data and they need to be in some shape or form transform in something valuable but I agree and I think somebody in the chat said is more than money I completely agree should not be money it should be valorization of type of reward and that's where we can find a new economy and again if you look at health if you share your data you could have a decreased insurance premium or you could have faster access to a clinical trial because you share your data and you can have a better treatment so I think this is towards that type of new economy and new type of services we need to look but to say no we want we don't want data monetization because it does not have a nice flavor I think it's just leaving the room for people other people to make money out of our data and I don't think that's acceptable okay thank you and maybe Rafa to go to the final question well I think this is a very interesting topic and I think I skipped the last question and I would like to hear multiple thoughts on this topic about monetization thanks a lot I fully subscribed to what has been said before it's about saving friction it's about use cases that give you value the one thing I wanted to chip in on this actually the function of the corporative approach because first for most I think the corporative should solve the problem of me not being alone with my data because my data may be also other people's data either indirectly or even directly so that's maybe the first reason to have a more collective governance around certain data assets but it begs the question if you form certain corporatives around the idea that they could influence the bargaining power of the individuals or even small single person or even micro companies within the corporatives like the good old credit unions or farming societies or even book clubs where you basically aggregate purchase power and get nicer books at a cheaper price it begs the question whether this could also kind of recalibrate the current imbalance in the bargaining power I'm not saying that people should have a direct monetary revenue but that's maybe one aspect where also the corporatives could become an interesting model I'm not saying it should be the first the main model I'm more thinking that it's the friction cost for individuals and organisations as Ruben said that we should bring down with these personal data infrastructure and maybe one interesting aspect that I want to explore next week with colleagues actually is at Irish Life Irish Life is obviously a life insurance and they want to roll out also some sort of infrastructure in Ireland because the onboarding process for a lot of companies is very costly it's very paper based and they seem to have an interest to also bring down onboarding costs for companies that's where you can have also a lot of wins in terms of digitisation and providing then the digital infrastructure for individuals Thank you Malte Ruben do you have any concluding talks as we came to the end of the debate on this topic Yeah I would say that multiple stakeholders need to be part of this this is to me the key if we want use cases to be successful we need to look at it from the multiple sites this is the key issue because data means something different to different parties that is very obvious and we need to get them aligned and ultimately what companies really want is not to just have our data they want to innovate they want to deliver good services and so on so I think the misconception today is that in order to do those things you need to start harvesting the data yourself but once companies realise actually I just need to use the data like I don't need any sort of possession over it basically that things can get rolling so my concluding remark here is that from the get go let's involve all of the stakeholders to see what will be it for you because this is a story where multiple parties will win I'm really convinced of that so let's involve them all from the start that's my main takeaway Thank you Ruben for these concluding thoughts I see it's 10 past 11 and I would like to give the floor to Matthias for a wrap up and I would like to thank the panel for the stunning insights I would like to ask Christophe whether we could share Harry's whiteboard because I'm curious on his, to see his artwork and I saw already saw many snapshots on Twitter so Matthias the floor is yours, Harry I'm looking forward to your whiteboard Wow Okay this looks very nice I want to come in to share my webcam but I have issues with that so I'm sorry I dressed with my best shirt today but it will be without a webcam Once again thank you for the panel for your input and for your presence here today and Harry I don't know if you want to speak for the rest of the audience or really our pictures speak for itself Harry you're still on mute I think Harry I think you're still on mute Okay this doesn't seem to work Harry but anyway yeah I would say let's focus on the picture while I'll just make a short wrap up of the debates so we started with the question of yeah there's a lot about trust and do we can we trust the trust as a citizen or from societal perspective and VVS came up with an idea of yeah we have to maybe put a lens on as a society from previous trust traditions and people use different criteria when they trust each other or other actors and interoperability is a solution and it means that we can have the choice to choose the actor we trust Malte also gave like another input and I think we should take that into account because it's open Belgium today the Flemish region here in Belgium is doing a great job we are a frontrunner in the world I think we can say that out loud but we also have to focus on the Belgium federal level as well because new regulations will work on that for example then yeah there was a question where do we start you know that we you want to take some steps and how can we do that first of all we need to educate ourselves make sure that people understand what we're talking about it's about data literacy we also need to have the skills for example to go there to get along with these huge amounts of data we have to show it how it can work so we have to showcase and we have to also support things like my data operators and so on then there was like okay we have the where do we start the next question was like okay what are the opportunities if we have to start then what is the thing we need to account and Ruben came up with it's not just as you call it in Dutch just a happy thought if you want to succeed we need also to focus and to accept that there's a need of a decent economical model and that's where we have to take that into account and that is where we came up with the last question and our main discussion was yeah should it be monetized how can we get along with that the real profits of companies or more like societal gains in terms of savings efficiency benefits it's still an open discussion we are still at the beginning of this general societal process and I also want to thank Franz who mentioned in the chat that we need also to focus on power relations and I think that's a very good insight because we are living today in a society so everything is combined with each other the idea of personal data is de facto actually a data exchange idea so we are dependent from each other so we also need to focus on that power relations if you want to succeed we also have to take that into account that we have a multi stakeholder environment where we are in the next words from the conclusions thank you Matias for the wrap up I would like to thank all speakers and panelists it was a stunning mix I would like to thank Isabel, Ruben, Vivi, Malte Matias, Christoph and Paul and also Harry for his artwork I don't know Christoph before we end this session have again a quick view on Harry's whiteboard yeah I'll immediately give the view and in the meanwhile I'll take the time to announce that if you want to continue thinking on this topic and forming this data collaborative and make this a reality then please reach out to many of us we are reachable on many online platforms and I'll share also at least my email and other of the organizers could do so so we can stay in touch and think about the next steps to make this for at least Europe a far reality coming closer to the nearer future thank you Christoph and also to end I would like to thank Open Knowledge Belgium for giving us this opportunity this platform to share this innovative thoughts and also many thanks to Astrid for supporting this session thank you all looking forward forward to see you in the near future if you want to welcome to