 You're laughing, you think that's funny? Do you think tomato cruelty is a thing? It's going on fellas, you alright? Do you want something to eat? I do here? Really? Do you eat meat? Do you eat meat? You all eat animals, okay. I want to see like what's the point What's the point? To convince you, are you against cruelty to animals? You think it's okay cruelty to animals is okay? You don't mind it, okay, well then I don't want to convince you then No, you should, you should No, no, no Well, I could ask you why you think it's okay to be cruelty to animals Do you think it's cruel to kill an animal? Cruel Do you think it's cruel to kill an animal? It depends on the way you kill it Really? Yeah it does Is it cruel for me to kill you? Yeah it is What about the way that I do it? Does the way matter? Yeah, it's cruel to kill me We are all the same species, innit? Well, animals kill each other and they're from the same species, I want to know Is it cruel for me to kill you if I do it in a better way? It's not that it's cruel Yeah, but you want to live, don't you? So do I, so animals want to live too, yeah? Not really Yeah they do They are meant to be food If they don't want to live, why don't they just lay on the road and starve themselves to death? The plants also want to live The plants want to live Do you care morally about a tomato? Yeah I do So you're against tomato cruelty? Animals are still oxygen Do you think that's funny? I mean you're putting someone's They give us oxygen Wait a second Does a tomato have a brain? How do you know? How do you know? Because you can cut a tomato open sea Yeah, but then if it's a tomato it has feelings, doesn't it? A tomato has a feeling? How do they feel anything They don't need a brain They don't need a brain to think You do need a brain to think So you do biology and you think plants feel pain? Yeah they do You know plants know when they're being eaten right? No they don't You mean they send off like a reaction but they don't have a perceived pain So you know a Venus flower trap when they close? Do you think they're going oh my god there's someone in my mouth I'm going to eat them There's no brain in there They have a reaction It's a reaction Isn't there a difference between a knee jerk reaction and a preconceived thought? You need a brain for consciousness If I tap your knee and you go like this you didn't think about it It's a reaction, this is what plants can do Well I think what matters morally is sentience Your capacity to perceive the world around you and your capacity to suffer That's why I care about you I wouldn't want to see you guys suffer And I think we should extend that to these turkeys here This is UK turkeys People are going to eat turkeys this Christmas I don't know if you guys eat birds like chickens and ducks and turkeys Like obviously if you see this you don't hold them on the same moral plane as a tomato do you? Like as a biologist do you think they suffer more than a tomato? I'm asking you a serious question because you said plants feel pain You're saying suffering right? If there's a certain way to kill an animal or anything if you kill it from You're cutting their throat open Yeah they're cutting their throat open They don't feel pain If I cut your throat are you going to feel that? No of course not There's no nerves in your throat? Yes there is I've got a cut on my neck before I felt it Yeah you cut your neck but your neck hasn't been fully Okay well let me ask you about that If I cut someone's head off human being right now Is that an immoral act? Is that an unethical thing to do? Are you going to eat my meat? Well okay let's just say I eat you I will do it No I'm just trying to ask you about whether it's morally wrong if you don't feel it and I cut your head off But they don't feel it because they're dead This is a taste of treat animals This is a cute bird So yeah I want to ask you Do you honestly believe that it's okay to cut an animal's head off if they don't feel it? Ethically How are we going to survive without meat? Well I've been vegan for 7 nearly 8 years You grew up eating meats Yeah but I could have survived without it I've been not eating meat all my life I'm vegan for the animals for ethics And you believe animals suffer more than a tomato I think you're starting to think about it a bit When you see this there's something wrong with that in your heart like there's something that's morally wrong with this I mean when you think about it it's helping you survive to get the nutrients If you had to survive I wouldn't be here debating ethics with you Have you ever been able to enjoy it? It's this one from Tesco No turkey roast crown and there's no suffering No bird had to be killed for Christmas Last point you don't take much of your time That's okay If you believe animals can suffer Do you believe they want to live? So why should we rob them of their life if you don't need to? No that's the thing You're saying we don't need to You don't need to? They suffer They don't suffer when they get killed the right way Most of the animals here are factory farms so they're always suffering If you're eating dairy if you're eating birds if you're eating beef these animals are coming from a product of suffering But we're not saying we're saying yes it's bad the way they're doing it It's not wrong for us to eat it If you pay for it don't eat my brother forget the pain for it If I have a cow right there and I kill it it doesn't suffer Does that make sense to you then? Kill it ethically I don't want to pinch you Let me have this conversation we can have one I mean without him So you give me a knife how do I kill you ethically You got me feeling pain I'll cut you through the throat Do you think that I would never do that to you man I like you Even if I didn't like you even if I didn't like you I wouldn't do that to you man Your ethics are way different than animals ethics Your value is way different than an animal's value It doesn't matter man We can have different ethics You think it's ethical to slash someone's throat So I don't know I said how do I kill you ethically and you said get a knife and slash me in the throat I mean if you want to yeah I wouldn't want you to do that to me Why do you don't want to because you want to eat his meat Right? Trust me you would kill me if you had to In a situation Right now we've got this No turkey crown roast No reason to put animals through this So we can have a sandwich You can have this And you can scan it And this has this in it So it's a download pack for vegan Christmas It's got all a guide there for shopping Vegan you know If we're more important than animals right It doesn't matter It doesn't matter they're important enough Not to cut their head off They are of course they are Of course they are they don't feel pain Plants know when they're being eaten A tomato is less important than a dog So a dog is less important than a human isn't it It doesn't matter if they're less important than a human What matters is they're more important than your taste buds Yeah you see That's what matters Is that true I don't care I don't care about plants I don't care Do you know what I'm saying Of course I do You know people suffer to produce their stuff To make their phone What does that mean That's what I'm saying Wait a second Let me ask you a question People suffer People suffer to do everything They're suffering everywhere I want to know if To make their stuff that is used to make the phone Do you know that People in Congo You mean you're talking about mines in Congo Yeah You're talking about slavery Or low pay Or bad working conditions So you're saying buying a mobile phone is immoral It is According to what you're saying Even buying a techie is immoral No, no, but were you buying up a slave That's had their head cut off And you buying a phone from It's not Because buying a mobile Buying a phone from a company That's producing income And jobs for countries with low income But they're not It's based on people who are suffering There's not just suffering In a mobile phone There's also income and well-being That's produced If they were If they were enslaving them And then cutting off their heads so I can eat their body I'd be on your team, I wouldn't be buying mobile phones They are suffering every day Every day Well, some people need to work here So companies It's not about working Well, I'm against slavery But I don't know how much slavery is in these minds There's probably some But I don't know if it's all slavery And maybe the conditions aren't as good as over here But the conditions over there are bad for everyone So I think it's a little bit different To putting animals in a factory farm and cutting their head off If you're putting humans in these places You and I would be on the same team here But for some reason I'm saying Buying a mobile is not inherently In all ways immoral It's a body of someone It's messed up on another level The concept of buying a phone Coming from initially Slavery is worse than buying a body part I'm saying to you The entire mobile phone industry is not filled With slavery But it's against the law For starters, it's against international law They still might do it But this here is completely legal And there's a difference between buying a phone That was manufactured by a bunch of different people down the line Every single one of these animals Is having their head cut off for a sandwich Every single one of them The dairy cows, the egg-laying hens You name it, you name the animals that are exploited They're all murdered There's plenty of suffering in animal agriculture It dwarfs any human holocaust that's ever existed 74 billion land animals And 3 trillion marine animals are executed every single year That's more than any human beings that have ever existed We kill more animals in four weeks Than human beings have ever existed It's supposed to be like that So how can you compare it? Only 100 billion human beings have ever existed It's supposed to be that way How could you compare that? If we don't eat animals, right? Like me? And you? What's going to happen to you? Are you scared? Isn't the animal population going to increase? Isn't the animal population going to increase? No, brother I've been through all these arguments before I've been an activist now for six years And I appreciate your question The reason there's hundreds of billions of animals being bred into existence every few years Of course there isn't We'd stop breeding them How would you stop breeding them? The farmers would meet the demand So if we all went vegan, the farmers would meet the demand And they'd stop breeding them They would cut their testicles off So that would stop breeding them And it would phase out slowly How can you convince an animal to stop breeding? Stop breeding? They're all artificially bred, my friend They're forcibly breeding them They don't naturally breed these animals I'm not talking about this I'm all talking natural Not factory, not nothing All factories stop the slaughter You're not eating naturally occurring animals You're eating human-bred selectively bred animals in factories That's what you're eating I'm talking about the population of animals No, brother The population is going to increase Majority of animals are factory farmed So you're getting human-manipulated, human-bred selectively bred animals When you stop eating them Everyone stops eating They stop breeding as many animals into existence And it slowly phases out Okay, after they stop breeding them Aren't the animals themselves going to breed themselves? No, no, no, no We control their breeding How do you control dogs and cats from breeding So they don't overpopulate? You de-sex them It's more ethical Because they end up in a... That's the cause Brother, you know, turkeys can't even mate Because they've been bred to be double the size So humans have to intervene and mate them Dairy cows are artificially inseminated Chickens have got something called parent breeder sheds Where they put hens in with roosters And they make them mate So all of this can be controlled But I'm just saying to you, they're not going to overpopulate Just because we don't eat them So there's other two They're either going to go extinct If we stop eating them They were created by us in the first place Look I mean, I know you're trying to find every single way out of being vegan here It's not that we're trying to find a way But you're using the concept of suffering And then when we bring it against you Suffering against animals You want to talk about de-sexing animals? No, I'm talking about say Again, let's bring up the points of When you said that the thing is different When the slaves are suffering To when we're killing Because you have to factor in well-being and suffering If I'm paying you 50p a day To do your work Well, what's the minimum wage in that country? That's what I want to know You can't compare their country to this country No, no, no You can't compare their human war to animal war Minimum wage I'm just saying No, no, in their country What are people getting paid? Of course, the whole country is rife with property So you want to take phones out of their country And make them even more poor So they have no job? All I'm saying is if you stop eating animal products Animals don't get their head cut off If you stop buying phones and everyone stops buying phones They don't have a job, what are they going to do? Forced into real slavery? If I stop, if all of us Everyone here stops eating The factory is going to stop Yeah, that's how it works People lose their jobs They'll have jobs in plant-based innovative foods Like these ones here These ones here, no animals get butchered and killed Animals get butchered and killed You know what I mean? Yeah Take care Take a look at that information You probably won't Look up Land of Hope and Glory See how your animals are killed I don't know if you're Muslim and you get hello animals But they're all raised in factory farms as well And hello animals Suffering is haram? Suffering is haram? But they're raising them in factory farms That's haram You're saying haram, but in Islamic countries There aren't these farms You live here You're eating suffered animals here, that's haram You can be vegan and there's no suffering And that's hello Vegan is always hello These aren't God made animals These are human made animals This is nothing from God This is something humans have created for our greed