 Welcome for my end. My name is Philip. I'm working here in the Managing Board of the World Economic Forum And I'm only here to welcome you in order to underscore to underpin the relevance of today's session because we are talking about Inclusion here in India and there's no inclusion without diversity. I would even go one step further So if you would like to have a free and creative economy You need first at foremost and free and creative so diverse society. That's the reason why we are here today So thank you very much for being here with that strong participation We are very happy to provide all of you with this today's session. Thank you very much Thank you so much and it's such a pleasure to welcome all of you here for this session on diversity And we are going to try and do this Sessions slightly differently. We are there a couple of things we're going to ask all of you as an audience to do as well But I just come to that in a minute. Just wanted to welcome our very special guest who we have with us Smith. He's a very little introduction minister of textiles in India. It's fantastic to have you with us Shashi Mukundan is here as country head India of the BP group and it's going to be talking a lot about what's been happening in diversity But my shine is a head the Godridge India cultural lab talking about diversity I have to say it's so great. You're adding diversity of dress here at the world I just tell you that this is just for smithy. This is for smithy. This is Banaras handloom smithy just for you I think that it's extremely significant. Normally. It's presumed that women dress up for men We're off to a great start Diversity of dress at the world economic forum, you know all these ties and suits so that become next time We have to get you in a I have to say it's going to take I'm not so sure about the shoes You with Banarsi will do Vikram Banarsi, you know next time we having a panel like this or at both of you talking to me about Banarsi Yes, I will I may try that not necessarily the shoes I have to confess and Shamena Singh is wonderful to have you as a president master card So thank you all so much for being with us now before we jump into this the forum wanted us to try something in The nature of an icebreaker and it's a new thing that we're trying with the format We'd like you all to spend one minute turn to somebody any of your neighbors sitting right next to you and tell them a story of sometime when you either Witness somebody being excluded or experienced it yourself and What did that feel like just one minute turn to the person next to you and see if you can share one of those stories Witnessed exclusion or experience it yourself That's very obvious we have many stories You're a YG That's not a well-known fact about me, but I Congratulations, we're in the next panel together as well. So Neelan has told me I should take you Yeah He's obviously really powerful stories because I'm gonna now struggle to get everyone's attention back here to the panel All right, ladies and gentlemen if I can have your attention if I can have your attention back What's the conclusion did everyone have a story Please raise your hands everyone who either heard or derated a powerful story of exclusion So it's it's common. It's way more common than than we would think and I am therefore going to come now to the panel and in a couple of minutes I'm going to throw it open to a more broader discussion of what we can actually do to make India more inclusive and that's in every sense of the word because and I just want to ask you Smithy when you think about it and the government thinks about it the issue of diversity and inclusiveness There are various facets to it. There's gender obviously, but the other facets of diversity as well that probably need to be looked at I think the first at the first instance we would need to recognize that Diversity is not a challenge pertaining only to India. It's a challenge worldwide It is a challenge that people across various sectors various geographical areas are facing and Positively responding to the very fact that today we are talking about it on an economic forum Also has a huge significance Because it was not an element of discussion It was mostly a part of hushed whispers which were happening in corridors and definitely not conversations Which were transpiring between men and women on open forums So I think we have to recognize that we have gone a significant way at least In that direction that we are open about it talking about it It is a challenge that needs to be responded to not only in business, but across various facets of life But there has to be a recognition of another fact that when we look at women and we talk about women in our country And especially if we talk about successful women in our country Lego is doing a project of women scientists Because they want to change the discourse of how women are projected or how they are received from childhood Can we imagine such a project in our country where the fairy tales which are normally told to all of us and not only in our country But across the world is about a woman waiting to be rescued always the second issue that that seeps in is if you look at a woman from a Business point of view. I was recently in an event where we were Felicitating women who are achievers were extremely powerful in the business community and every time I saw the audio visual The audio visual was about how great a woman she is because she looks after her family also apart from the business Yeah, and the fact that she also takes walks and was just sasbahu cereals Now imagine the same with that. No, my issue is My issue is this When we award men do we talk about that humane facet about men in business? Fair enough so that is this signals are very mixed and they are out there They are not very dominant for you to claim a victimization But it is said that if a woman is extremely aggressive about reaching a particular goal She's taught thought of to be too ambitious too aggressive and not feminine enough And we need to describe women who are achievers also with such a humane touch that it becomes very palatable for all of us So I think that it it starts from right from childhood goes up all the way till you achieving I'm sure that all the women here most of them did not actually turn around and tell stories of their own victim hood or stories Where they have been in any way? discriminated upon because just the discussion also tags you as Somebody who can't get over the fact that he has her gender is a problem So did you ever feel gender was a problem? I have never used my gender as a crutch never Not as a crutch to get acceptance not as a crutch to get an entry into a door I have said that treat me as well as you would treat a male colleague and when I was a professional in the media business I know that women in our country for the same amount of work for the same kind of work get 56% Less pay as compared to men, but that is also a topic which is not openly discussed and debated It's an accepted fact. We are getting an opportunity to work So we'll make a mark for ourselves. So we are getting there But like I said, there are many women who do not use their gender as a stepping stone or as a crutch All right as we go forward I want to just come back to one of the aspects that you began by saying that it's a global problem and in India It's still not completely sure that we are not actually a head of other parts of the world when it comes to our Attitude to diversity and India is of course one of the most diverse countries Anywhere on the planet and all has been for for centuries if not millennium So, you know, we should look at what our history in that aspect is as well but if I can turn to the rest of you before we come back to that and One of the other twists that we're introducing in this particular, you know Panel is if you have a story to tell about yourself or about somebody else, you know Which you think illustrates the issues around diversity. Please feel free to do that So why don't I come to you next sure So I'm Parmesh and I actually have an image to share This is an image of my colleague Naira and Naira happens to be the first transgender employee at Godridge I happen to be the first out-and-proud gay employee at Godridge and Over the past few years Godridge as many of you might know is a hundred and nineteen year old legacy Company rooted in the idea of Swadeshi And but over the past few years, we've just transformed Radically on various facets of diversity and I was just nodding, you know Like a naughty doll when Smriti was talking about gender because this is stuff that we talk about all the time I want to at this panel talk about LGBT diversity because it's something that we've taken the lead on over the past few years we've become So, I mean, you know, whether you look at our policies Equal rights policies same-sex partner benefits whether you look at the culture that we've created Whether it's performances stocks film screening, etc. But you look at the kind of advocacy that we've been doing Whether in sponsoring film festivals or so many other LGBT, you know efforts across the country We've become in a sense the only Indian company which is which has taken up this issue Why have we done this we've done this because first of all fundamentally believe that, you know When you talk about diversity, you can't be diverse about some things and not be diverse about the other So you can't say I want gender diversity, but I don't want LGBT diversity or I want, you know Undiversity of geography but not that but the other thing is also data because we're the world economic forum Just just to put to push you on that point You're saying that if you are to be inclusive and you have to be diverse You have to be diverse and inclusive about everything. I think it's a mindset more than anything else Inclusiveness is a mindset when you say everyone is equal Irrespective of where they've come from what religion they belong to who you know what gender they are You cannot exclude who you choose to love from that so that's number one But the second thing and I really want to mention the data because this is the world economic forum in the morning We released a report which said that India went up to 39 now on the global competitive index now There's so much research as Gallup research that just came out that said that had we were we LGBT friendly We could have gone up by 10 or 15 more points as well So all the data says that you can be more globally competitive if you're LGBT friendly Certainly it helps in innovation certainly it helps in attracting and the best human capital again There's there's I was reading something which said that 64 percent of young Indians LGBT or straight want to work for a company which is LGBT friendly It's not just LGBT employees who want to work for LGBT friendly companies Straight people to want to work for a company which just respects them for who they are So there's enough of a business case with the culture if there's a culture of tolerance Exclusion I mean you know we'll also have inclusion. I mean culture of not exclusion rather Which is which is also so prevalent in corporate India. Yeah, all right So we come I'd come to you with his views on any story that you want to share No, so I want to come at this in a different way and I want to come at this more from International company and you know when I look at globally today, you know, like yes, Mr. Rani said, you know You're becoming so big and everything is getting so close in that, you know You cannot not think about diversity and you cannot not think about inclusion as you look at these things Look at our kids. Our kids are learning from this across the globe, right? This is why you're seeing kids from small villages who are becoming so successful. Why are they successful? It's because they're able to Get to see that diversity across the globe So my story is about a girl called Pushpa and she's from a small village in UP She came from a family which had five siblings more than five siblings. She has almost a dozen siblings She was one of five daughters. She lost her father a father died at a you know at the at her at his place of work The company just gave them ten thousand rupees. He had a lot of debt So the whole family ended up, you know selling everything that they had This girl took it on herself and said, you know, I'm not going to become a victim for this I'm going to go do stuff. She came to Delhi. She actually started working as a maid servant Enrolled herself in the University Started to study for ten standard. She passed her ten standard. She's now got an Aadhar card She's got her all her family medical insurance. She's got you know LPG connection at her home in the village She's you know, she's now enrolled for the 12th standard all of this in a matter of three years Not only that, you know her other four girls siblings that are there. She even got the Brother-in-law's thrown in jail for harassing her sisters So what she's done is she's learned by coming here and watching and learning, you know, she she didn't become a victim She said, okay, I'm going to take this on my hand and now her goal is she's collecting money to get Maruti alto so she can put that into the Ola cab fleet I mean it's an incredible story, you know to see somebody Not taking it as a victim but saying okay, I'm going to go out there and do this and this is what you're going to see Across the globe. So for us when we look at it as a business It is a it's a business case There is a business case for diversity and there's a business case for inclusion It's a business case for inclusion and that that story in addition to all the benefits of its own and the Transformation of society you're saying it's a business case for it as well. Let me get you in Get me in Vikram Include me in the conversation It's an inclusive conversation Now you haven't spoken yet. So it's your turn So here's an so I guess the perspective that I'd like to share in addition to the ones that have been already talked about are sort of relates to my own experience as And the daughter of immigrants so my parents are from Punjab and Ajmer and they went to the United States in the 60s and and so I sort of come at it from a place of Fitting in everywhere and not fitting in everywhere and sort of the the experience of Diversity when you are the daughter of the first daughter born in the United States of Immigrants from India raised in a small southern town And then if anybody knows anything about the South in the United States, you know that at least in the 60s And before then it was a pretty homogenous Homogenous place to be and so Being the daughter of a paka Sardar and you know a small town in Chesapeake, Virginia could have been quite an experience But to your point When my father went over to study the people and he first went to a place in Georgia Which you really can't get much southern than Georgia in the United States and the people of the town all bought lottery tickets To win a car So when they won the when the lottery was announced they gave all the lottery tickets to my father and gave him the car Well, and that was for a young paka Sardar from India coming to Georgia to do his studies So that he could have the transportation to bring his wife and and kids over so this notion of diversity There are no there are no blacks or no whites. There's no if there's no ends It's all something that I think is created to your point. It's a frame It's a state of mind and so I think that there are positives and there are negatives but I also happen to work for a company as you said that's also the CEO is a Sardar and You know so this notion of fitting in everywhere and not fitting in anywhere is something that we wrestle with a lot And the way we come at it to your point again is that there is a huge race and war for talent If we don't recruit the talent into a company like a MasterCard or anywhere else if we don't invest in women and Technology and women in science and women in math and women in economics And we don't bring our whole selves to work. Then we're gonna lose the war on talent I mean, I hate I hate to divert away from India just for a minute, but seeing as you started it I have to ask the question what is going to happen to diversity in the United States a month from now? One month and five days from now Well, I mean if she's not then what happens I don't think diversity is something that you know is gonna happen or not based on an election Hopefully, but as you guys can tell me you had a site You had a slightly nervous tone to your voice Vikram, you're putting words in my mouth as any reporter would That's your job, I know Will diversity remain you think I think an appreciation for diversity will remain no matter who wins the election My guess is it will remain because again if you think about it, there's a business case behind it Right and and you will need to do that because if you look at us today It's much more, you know different than what it used to be You know when I started when I started my career I felt like you you know when I went to work in the US. I felt like a minority I felt like you know somebody who had to really prove yourself because here you were a brown guy in an oil company Which was all black-suited white shirt people and you know now all of a sudden here You are trying to fit in there and you needed to understand you needed to work through it So you know it's you you also feel the same thing But I think the point that I was trying to get to and both of these and all these stories Illustrate is and I'm going to come back to India as a result of that if you take what has made the United States great over the period of time It's because it has Assimilated it has taken so many people it has been inclusive and that's been one of the major sources of strength of the United States And that in a sense is also what the Indian history has been. Yeah, would you agree with that? Yeah, I think that we need to look at the diversity issue not only from a business point of view or a political point of view It is actually a people's point of view In the US whatever I know of its history. It was a people's movement that brought about or assured in a change Today if there is conversation about a lady leading and possibly taking on the reins We as Indians can be extremely proud that we have had women in positions of power throughout our polity crutting across Political lines and I think it's a huge compliment to the men in my country that it has not become the subject of You know debate the fact that a leader needs to be less of a leader because she is a woman has never been a Conversation in at least in in the Indian diaspora per se and I think that is one of the biggest achievements at least from my Nation's perspective which is a compliment that should be extended to every man in my country that we've had women come up In in politics, but yes the challenge and take that argument a little forward What just what you were saying or right? It's happened in politics across the political spectrum, but even in companies if you look at banks for example Look at the number of banks in India where the CEOs are actually women and it hasn't really and media the television industry I've seen a lot of women leading banks like you rightfully said have led in terms of breaking the glass ceiling and that whole You know Conversation goes banks have led so wherever women have had not only opportunities or a level playing field But also wherever women have had mentors to take them forward women mentoring other women to take them forward We have seen some significant change. We've seen that in media We have seen that in the banking sector and I'm sure that we'll see it across all sectors now We've had a huge emphasis put on girl child education in the schooling system We are seeing the benefits of that and now as a nation We are pushing towards more and more women getting educated in the higher education sector So whenever we as people put our strength behind our resolve behind a particular issue vis-a-vis diversity Be gender or otherwise we see a kind of a change reflect in the polity or the economy accordingly I just wanted to know what you thought about that because I think it's a really interesting and an accurate point That she makes that India quite often gets bad press over the way You know women are treated and on gender issues, which is also correct Everything's a media But having said that that's also correct You know women's safety is an issue all of those those problems come up and yes women are treated badly in In a large large number of cases, but in a country like India Sometimes the opposite of what is true is also true and I think a smithy very correctly said In many areas India does not have as much of a problem with a glass ceiling as you do in some other countries But it's a corporate world whether it's a political world They coming back to the US the US is still to have a you know a female president I mean may happen one month from now, but the lies and happened It's it happened in India that no what 50 years ago or 40 years ago So I think in terms of the when I think about diversity I run something called the Mastercard Center for Inclusive Growth and the basic the basic theory there is connecting Productivity and potential to the networks that drive the modern economy So if you think about leadership if you think about And you know if you think about by the ones who's been a president who's been a senator who's been a prime minister who's been Elected I think it's all about making sure that we create an environment that allows the most people to reach their most Potential and to be the most productive because those are the things that unlock the economic potential of a country So we've just released a study in in in partnership with Rama Bijapur car In ice 360 around the new Middle India and who comprises the Middle India the purchasing power how they live earn spend and save and the biggest take away from that study is that the more you Create an environment where people are connected to the networks that drive the modern economy Connected to the ability to reach their potential through their labor productivity Regardless of who they love how they're born where they work where they live Then you're creating an economy that unleashes potential and ultimately to me at least that's the inclusive growth That we're trying to achieve After that I actually want to go back to what you said about India being Inclusive as such and for gender for sure But even for LGBT which is something that I spoke about earlier if you look at pre British India We were very inclusive if you look at our mythological texts and you know people like David Patnaik and there have been so many other Scholars and authors who've written about it are very inclusive. It's just I'm just wondering and so that's one if you look at Young India today. I recruit for our gold rich. We go to colleges across the country for most young Indian It's not an issue. So for exactly these reasons, right? People want careers people want better lives so I just wonder why Middle-aged India I Think the issues are in the sense of middle-aged India people like us because the young We'll be Okay, we're all middle-aged like we're all middle-class. We're all middle-aged. I'm okay with middle-class. I'm 40. Is that middle-aged? Okay, let's say if you talk to people below 25 you talk to you talk to people below 25 They have other issues, right? They want to succeed on the parameters. You were talking about your study If you look at our history, it's inclusive. I'm just wondering why When there's such momentum for inclusion say gender say sexuality say everything you go out there People want to be included and people want to include why then are we so apprehensive about widening the net of our inclusion is my question Yeah, I actually want to just take it. I'm gonna throw this to all of you a country like India They are there's some who would argue and I think that that would probably be correct that India doesn't have a choice But to be inclusive and to embrace diversity Because if you if you take a look at it India is probably the most diverse country in the world So if you add all the different ways in which Indians are different from each other it from not just on gender grounds Or you know LGBT grounds or any other grounds It's on religious grounds and regional grounds on language grounds on ethnic grounds and race grounds Just look at what a diverse country this is and if we are not going to be inclusive and accept diversity We're gonna struggle which is why all through our history. We've been inclusive. I think that apart from missing giving a description of her own family Let me make a disclosure. So my dad is a Punjabi. Dadi is a Maharashtran Nana is a Bengali nani is from a Sam and husband is a Parsi from Gujarat And I carry apart from the fact that I'm a woman. I have a surname like Irani, which does not do you well if you're at US Customs You Need to understand the fact. I mean, this is my personal belief when you say India has no other choice Change cannot I think that change cannot be a compulsion if you want that change to permeate if you want that change to be lasting It is a change which has to happen very organically. It is a change which emanates from people Legislation has only a certain You know jurisdiction within it which it works it can't change hearts it can't change mindsets It can punish you if you do something wrong So I think that if you genuinely want to talk about a change in mindset Then it has to start from when you're very young He's right. We are middle 40 We have I have kids it has to start with my kids recognizing that everybody has to be respected Irrespective of their region religion sexuality, whatever but for us to say that I want to be inclusive But let XYZ let corporate tell me how to be inclusive let government tell to tell me how to be inclusive That will not I think cut ice we as people have to be ready With our families have those conversations with our families and then we will see that change happen Otherwise if you say that change is nothing but a compulsion But also shall be thrust upon you as a policy. You will not see definite change You can't have changed by by government policy. I think but His point are we less Inclusive than we once were or it's where does the change have to be do we need to go back to what the historical? Norm in India has been or do we need to try and change that I don't think this we are less Inclusive I think what's happening is we are more aware because of the fact that you know There's more information being given out to people. We're much more aware of it and what you're seeing is you're seeing more and more People trying to you know become more inclusive, you know think about diversity in such I mean just take the case of the IAS system, right if I was just when you were talking Just thinking about it. It's probably the most inclusive thing right you look at how you get placed You get placed in different parts of India you may not be from Kerala But you know you might be posted there it can be a woman it could be a man And you know and and you grow up and then you know you keep shuttling back and forth And you know you're bringing so much of diversity into the center, you know How many places in the world do you have that kind of inclusiveness that's happening? It's just we're not recognizing it We're not thinking about it You know, why are we successful is because we're able to do things like that I think what we need is more of a system in place where we can start thinking about you know How do we make it more an institution or a system where we start giving that opportunity for everyone to come in and Participate so you know it's can I be a little bit more inclusive, you know in my work and we keep talking about there aren't enough Women you know growing up in the organization. Why is that you know you start thinking about it and you say okay You know you talked about mentorship, you know, can you mentor these people can you know because when you look at it When when you bring people into an organization you got 50 50 right men and women, but as they start going up It's going down. Why is that it's because you know, how do you provide them that so one of things BP does is You know globally we've got this thing called as agile workplace Which is essentially we're giving people the opportunity to work from home, you know flex times maternity leave You know and what we're doing is we are also telling the men You need to also think about agile workplace because you need to now start recognizing your spouse Who's working who needs to also do this? Right, but if I can take I'm sorry. I'm just taking about mr. Mukundan is saying About a workforce that is agile It's a it's a issue that you undertaken under BP But let me just give you a small example of how women though capable never find positioning When I became the HRD minister in the IIT council the first meeting that I took I saw that there were all men in the room and I said don't you have a woman representative? So they say up hen I say I'm here by the virtue of the office I hold they said no, they're not good enough to be in amongst the top layers of engineers of this country Yes, and this is all the most celebrated names So I had a nomination which came up to me and I was asked to nominate two people and the nomination list was all men So I said why can't you find me some woman of repute who can take that position? They said no, we don't have any so I picked up my phone and I directly called Tessie Thomas and I said ma'am would you consider being a part of this council? I could almost hear her voice break and she said how did you think of me? I said can you imagine in a country where you have a master like dr. Kallam ably assisted with Tessie Thomas for her to feel old you just discovered me I said you're one of the most talented Indian scientists Why would I not want you to have a position in IIT council? And it's my privilege that she is one of the first women to get into the IIT council so when you talk about women in science women in economy technology if you don't see them in positions of power where they are seen to be making decisions Women at the bottom of the layer feel that Ja ja ke aur kitna jaa pahenge So one of the things we do is we we've now forced into you know when we have a job opening We have to make sure there's at least one woman who's qualified for that job And the other thing we do is when we interview we have a panel that interviews We'll make sure there is at least a woman on the panel Interviewing as well so that you know you get that diverse view and diverse thought process into it Yeah, just to add to that earlier y'all said change can't be mandated But you can as you did with Tessie or as you are doing with BP or as they're doing with board rates Say for LGBT you can create an in you can get an infrastructure which encourages people to step ahead So another fit is not See it's not as if Tessie Thomas just became a scientist when I became minister So she has been there in the Indian scientific community to be placed in those positions Where she can make a difference. So that's what I'm saying. Why did I have no, but why did I have that out look? It's because my mother and my parents taught me that they are women out there who are extremely talented Who might not have the luck to know the right people at the right time at the right place when you get an opportunity Take those women ahead. Tessie Thomas is way more experienced way more celebrated But she never had somebody to say that come out and be a part of a council which makes all the decisions And here the issue is women are 50% of the population and there are lots and lots of talented women who can't come into that position In other areas that they are other question which happened that how do you need to start training them from an earlier age? And that's why when you come back to affirmative action and making sure for example Representations of Dalits in positions of higher educational learning then the question comes But you know, they need you really need to improve it from the primary school level and then the second Reservation is available even for posting of academicians that is not the challenge But like I said if I have a kind of an outreach to a Tessie Thomas that happens because a mindset is developed as a child as A young girl. So when you talk about inclusion It's about like he says orientation and that cannot happen when you're 40 in a position of power It has to happen when you yourself are growing up with those values and you're told I mean look at the Dichotomy Vikram. We are a nation a civilization which said Vasudev Kuttyam will come We said the world is one family eons back Yes, and the if I look at the if I look at the contradiction today in the Arthashastra There was punishment for sexually harassing a woman at the workplace But the sexual harassment at workplace bill got passed in Parliament in 2013 Which means that as a nation we have a legacy of inclusion that we can be extremely proud of of diversity of Understanding the rights of each human being that we can be extremely proud of there has been a gap somewhere They have been shortfalls we as people can feel it But we need to start not only at at you know levels of corporate or Policy or politics for that matter or education, but we also have to start it at home But also I think to your point ma'am the the incentives have to be aligned And so I think when you're talking about at least when I think about government when I think about private sector and public sector The incentives or the structures Have to be aligned. So if I think about a corporate America, for example and a company like MasterCard if the incentive is to attract the best talent regardless of Orientate sexual orientation gender Etc. Etc. You have to go find the best talent because there's a there's a recognition that without the best people around the table Innovation will not happen and so in a world that's driven by technology if you're not fostering diversity of thought Diversity of opinion diversity of talent you're not going to be a create an environment that fosters innovation and one example that That we've done as a company is it's the same thing Ajay Ajay would say they HR would bring him a slate of candidates that Wasn't as diverse as he thought it should be any and for him it was more about Diversity of talent and leadership to make sure that there are ideas around the table that are fostering innovation to bring new ideas To the company and so he suggested that because he got the same answer that look It's very tough to find engineers technology things like that. So he said okay, then let's start recruiting from women's universities He said how many universities how many of our HR consulting teams go out to universities? That are that are single-sex and let's go start work Let's add them to the mix at least of universities from where we're recruiting So those are the types of strategies that one can employ in order to incentivize in a way that brings in the talent So let me just shift focus a little bit and come into one other aspect of diversity that perhaps you don't think about often enough Which is simply diversity of thought and diversity of opinion And there was a strong view that people had that with social media and everything else that's happening You will throw it open and there'll be a farm or you know You'll be listening to lots of different opinions and different voices and all sorts of things will come in Today there are some people who are wondering whether that's really the truth or Today it's sometimes he means that everyone's getting into ideological echo chambers and are shouting down anybody who has an opinion And I don't mean shouting down only on television in general Let's be diverse out here Everyone's entitled to that diverse side But any opinions that are contrary to yours you don't want to listen to them You want to shout them down and quite often in ideological echo chambers on social media and other things You will not allow other voices to be heard. Is that something that you think is gathering momentum? So I personally think while all of that is happening There's also incredible new spaces that are coming up where people are expressing their voices For example, women might not have representation on national TV as much There's Khabar Lahiriya, which is a newspaper run by women in Bundelkhand. Television news is almost entirely run by women But are the topics about women or whatever? So that's one thing. That's one thing But in Bundelkhand, that's Khabar Lahiriya, which comes out, which is women run It's an incredible newspaper, which is women run women funded with transit Now they might not watch nightly news debates with ten talking heads or shouting over each other But they have a very rich source of news While I agree there's a lot of echo chambers happening It's I think it's happening in English speaking and perhaps English and Hindi And televised media. I think if you look at media at large, I'm actually seeing a range of things I'm actually seeing incredible examples of gender, LGBT, all other kinds of diversity out there So you see more diverse opinions or less. I think I'm seeing more diverse So as a business leader, I would say, you know, you want to encourage more thoughts because you know That's what happens. So I always when I talk to my team, I always say when you talk about diversity It's the people that you bring around your table your boardroom table But that that's just a tick in the box. What you need is how do you include all of them? How do you get their thoughts into it? You know, and then how do you make best out of it, right? So it's always good to listen and if you're a good leader, you will listen and and you know So that means you should allow people to come out with their thoughts because that will get you the best inclusion And then that that'll come out with better. In fact, if you look at a lot of the Leadership in the Indian companies in India today. You will see some of the issues They have is the fact that you know, you don't get that Wider, you know thought process into it and then what's happening is then you've got people who are around you Who are actually your clones? Yeah, and that doesn't help. I think leadership is actually a critical point in all of this I mean anything we've all been sort of talking about points in time, but honestly, it's about leadership It's about integrity and it's about authenticity about What you're doing in the world? So I think true leadership is about this idea of it's I sort of call it Trisector leadership, but it's the ability to to integrate the public the private the citizen sector But most importantly to integrate the inside and outside of the individual But I'm actually looking from point of the individual I just wanted to get your thought on this I mean as somebody who's also been told a fair amount and other things You know, yeah, I think that our is is free thinking going down now a little bit Vikram, you have to recognize that freedom cannot be defined as you can only you are free to speak whatever I like It has to be you're free to speak whatever you like as long as you don't break the law and Social media now has given people the right and the freedom to challenge status quo to challenge Information which you deem to be correct But they have enough sources to come back to you and say that no if you're basing your point of view on a piece of research Then this research has another Possibly point of view to it or maybe this research is flawed I have as a minister seen the benefits of the internet in my Prime Minister's campaign of building toilets in every government school for girls When we when he spoke in 2015 August 15th By the 17th of August on a website We had put up every school information and we told citizens at large that this is the government's information Which we receive from districts and from states you as citizens can course corrected and tell us whether it's wrong If it is wrong if you do not have a toilet if you'd like a toilet built or if it's a toilet Which is completed you'd like to go check please give us your reviews and that is how with the people's Participation through the internet with the government at the state and the center We managed to make a success out of something which people said is impossible to do in one year. So, yes The ideological eco chambers that you refer to which I'm sure on your Twitter account harass you a lot I need not as much as you would think But the very fact that you're traumatized enough to bring it here I'm traumatized not so much with the social media but in general it's But we have to we have to recognize that in a democracy There is a recognition when it becomes Too toxic. There is a recognition when it becomes extremely beneficial for a conversation There is a recognition when that engagement becomes productive and when it becomes You know an element of linking the dots many people have helped people find Children who are lost Parents who are in distress in the floods. We have seen the army and people coming together So it has its benefits, but everything has its with false. So we should take the sugar with us I mean in general the benefits are absolutely undeniable. I was just sort of wondering overall about the Freedom of thought that that is recently is existing. I want to now just come to all of you including the panel and just get some ideas Before we leave the room, you know five ten minutes from now if there is one idea or two ideas that you think would substantially push forward The task of you know embracing diversity and making sure that we are a far more inclusive country What would that be and while the panel thinks about it? Let me let me just go to some some of the members of the audience and then I'll end with the panel Yeah, why don't I come to you because that's that yeah, okay. Let's just start here, please Yeah You can just hold the mic. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's important to recognize all minorities I'm slightly disappointed that the disabled haven't even been mentioned I was about to come to you where diversity is discussed here, so and Well, is that is that something which is getting better or worse? I mean the question of access is I think a really serious question that we need to address I think it is an important challenge For example, even when the Delhi government introduced the odd even a couple of months back They actually forgot to exempt the disabled from it even despite the public transport infrastructure that Eddie has And actually had to go to the High Court and file a PIL to have the disabled exempted from it So I think that is a big challenge and I would love to know especially from the three people in the private sector On the initiatives they have taken to include the disabled Actually anybody wants to talk because because that that is something else that I think is a very powerful example of What we need to do to be more inclusive and this is one area where I think India is far behind many other countries in Equal access for people with the disabilities Your point is well taken because I When I was not a minister I had started something called Saksham Which was basically a base paper for those who are physically challenged as to how to bring about Policy interventions for them and I'm glad that most of the interventions that I could do as a minister from From a point of view of access into educational institutions to waiving of fees in Institutions like IITs from everybody who is physically challenged those are the initiators which we have taken but like you rightfully said That this is another scope of inclusion that actually needs main focus Because of challenge for the the physically challenged or the disabled as Mr. Malhotra calls it is a challenge Which needs to be looked at from not a gender or a sexuality point of view religion or region point of view That's a conversation unto itself that we need to have from a corporate polity or policy point of view The other thing is I think in the United States at least I mean when I was an intern in my undergrad I was working at an organization called the United Cerebral Palsy Association of America And it was that year that President Bush the first President Bush signed the Americans with Disabilities Act Which mandated that all public facilities and all private facilities Accommodate Regardless of ability and that I think is one instance where government does play a role in terms of Equalizing access for all involved All right, I think that's a valid point to take that Mike Mike's it's coming to you. Thank you I just want to say first can we create a definition of diversity if we're really talking about that because if you Really seen the entire panel. I think it got restricted To you know, men women and all that so if you really want to say diversity, can we first create a diverse definition definition of that Yeah, I think we looked at all forms of inclusion therefore need to be need to be done Yeah, let me just see yeah the gentleman there my questions for Smithy ma'am You've rightly mentioned that you know as Indians. We've always had this idea of inclusion Do you think that the curriculum that exists today? Because in all almost all parents that I've went today people have pointed out that the Primary education in India is is a major gap that we need to come So do you think that at that point in by being those values? So first they have to come from the families But do you think that education can play a major role and if yes, what steps would you recommend or that you have already? Steps that I took when I had that position was apart from the fact that you we've off Fees for those who are physically challenged or for that matter those who have done exceptionally well, but or Women and cannot afford higher education in premier institutes like IST's waving off fees for them getting them additional support from a school perspective What we did was to ensure that you talk about more and more women who have contributed to your history To your economy and start making children write essays about them because I realized that the first thing a child Understands is when they want to do a little bit of a research for the essay they're writing They suddenly realize that oh, I did not know this lady existed or this was her contribution So one is that the second is women in science and technology is what I was pushing Which we as a government are continuing to push to have more and more women in positions where they can influence decision within institutions for instance, I had the opportunity I had 11 vacancies for chairmen's for a National Institute of Technology and I picked six women and They said that how do you pick six women? We didn't have these many before I said because you're the prerequisite for choosing a chairperson Was that they have to be some brilliant people in the in the business world or in the corporate world so I had people like Chitra Subramaniam the chairperson of the National Stock Exchange all these women come for and and now they are leading these institutions and effective Effectively affecting the administration in those institutions. So when you talk about education It has to be done not only from a curriculum perspective But also from the perspective of administration because that is where you'll get a holistic impact All right, we are out of time now, sir. Mr. One quick comment from you and then I'm going to get final thoughts from the panel Thank you. I'm Adho Bajaj. I fully endorse Smithi G is a contention. You cannot trust empowerment on women I Truly believe that men and women are equal I Would like to believe that men should feel empowered in the empowerment of women Women should feel the joy. So please don't exclude men However, your lady colleague has excluded men in the bill which allows nine months of maternity leave why not men I would like to bring up my children too like those why men should be excluded But coming I I ran this campaign to try and get paternity leave in my organization and because women in my Organization have six months maternity leave and men had 15 days, but it had nothing then I finally got it Can we continue that? Trust in your channel. I would love to do that before but my two questions are With women being so Equal to men. Why is it that 50% of our boards are Direct of a single woman director though. There's a law. It says that these one woman So what we do is in order to do what I call khanapurthi We have similar thoughts We are putting our wives or mother or daughter there just to fill up the gap of law Why is it only the 5% of the CEOs of India? It's not the world. I don't know Our women what's happened? But that's exactly I think mr. Vajaj makes my point that you can have a law come into force But it's incumbent about people to bring about that chain and that change to Permian But as a rider mr. Vajaj, I went back to work after giving birth in three days You just silenced all of us We'll all shut up now and hang our heads quietly You made the case for a law which exists but for it to be enforced It has to be a people's movement a movement from the corporate world and there is a case through a Mackenzie report Which says that businesses which have had more and more women in management positions Actually see more profits as compared to other companies Absolutely I have to get final thoughts I want to support that because this is a very important point as two years as women's empowerment committee chairperson And I had all very powerful ladies. I wanted to change it to men's empowerment committee We you know we came to the conclusion which you said women are not able to reach the top positions Because of the break which are the two breaks marriage and childbirth Break that barrier by what you just now said Either come back early by crash system whatever it is or flexi time flexi location So that the ladies are given work which they can work So I'm sorry to wrap you up but we have to be completely out of time One one quick line one suggestion which we can walk out of the room with Which immediately pushes inclusion Sure one is train your kids for empathy echoing what you said and I'll add a second because I think it's very important for our LGBT population Really get away with 377 it's an antiquated relic of the British colonial past It has nothing to do with a global economy like India The review And I love that all of y'all are so supportive thank you It's I think it's we'll build that social as you said if society has to change we're already seeing people are so supportive So thank you Well I think there's a lot of support for that across the board Yeah The review petition is presumably coming up with So fingers crossed Alright we're all waiting to see what happens in that Fine so those are some of his suggestions ma'am I think it comes back to leadership and authenticity and true leadership and real leadership global leadership Proquires that you have a diverse outlook But that your goal is to unite the inside and outside of the individual Alright one idea Two ideas one is you know start young as what you know Mr. Rani said Start young with the kids show you know by your own actions at home You know if you you know use and use start showing diversity at home Then your kids will pick it up and then it starts growing Second bit is you know in terms of the corporate world Start thinking about agile workplace You know because that's going to really help us change our mindset Okay I'm going to give you the final words I think what Miss Singh and Mukundar Ji both have said about picking up women from universities So that you can develop them in the corporate world My plea to them and everybody here in this forum is this That as a minister I had given women the facility that as Mr. Bajjad had said That women give up their education either due to marriage or childbirth For the first time for PhDs through which women actually go up the corporate world Or in the world of technology I said that we give maternity leave for women who want to have children while pursuing PhD So that that break allows them to come back to their education completed Similarly if you are dislocated due to marriage Then your PhD travels with you from one university to the other Which is the first in Indian history So my request is if you go out and converge your efforts with universities That is the one law that you'd want to be totally adhered to Because that gives women movement not only through education to a better job But also gives them a movement to a better life So that's my plea, I end with a plea That's a perfect note to end on Thank you all so much for joining us Diversity is something really important And let's continue of course for a more inclusive India Thank you so much