 Yeah. Good. Hello and welcome to the Digital Freethought Radio hour and WOZO Radio 103.9 LP FM here in Knoxville, Tennessee. I'm doubter five or Larry Rhodes. We're recording this on Sunday morning, July 9th 2023. And usual we have our co-host one better line with us. Hello one but it's the tag team duo the OGs doubter five and one bat the dynamic do. Digital Freethought Radio hours to talk radio show about atheism, free thought, rational thought, humanism and sciences. And conversely, we'll also talk about religion, religious faith, God's holy books and superstition. And if you get the feeling that you're the only non believer in your town, well, you're just not. I bet anything in Knoxville in the middle of the Bible about we have a group of over 1000 of us. We're the atheist society of Knoxville or ASK. And we'll tell you more about them after the mid show break. So be sure to stick around. Well, but what's our topic today? Oh, what are we just in your entertainment? That's that's the conditions if I'm a little bit slower today, forgive me, I got a little bit of a head cold. But the idea is, I'd like to talk about how do you stay entertained in heaven. And I actually found a really interesting scenario that would both explain how we are entertained, but also neatly and perfectly to the point where even Larry will be convinced that souls exist. How to explain away the problem of evil. We'll also be talking about North Korea. I'm how God's a bully. And the whole controversy behind being told bless you as an atheist. It's not as big as you think. But before we get into it, let's let's touch bases with ourselves. I know for a fact that I'm a little under the weather today. I'm not sure why probably because of how hot it was, and I'm just a little bit exhausted. I don't feel like I have any particular symptoms but it's been really, really hot recently, and we've been getting a lot of weird storms to so my body's having a hard time trying to figure out. Is it dry. Is it hot. Is it cold. Is it rainy. Is it what's going on when can I go outside when should I not go outside because I can step out right now when it's sunny. It could pop potentially in a half hour it could be tormenting storms left and right through the neighborhood so it's enough to keep me indoors for a while and I could use the rest. Larry how you been holding up food. I've been fine but you know it's summer and in summer you get those heat storms in the evening, and the pop up or yeah so you really don't know when they're going to pop up. I had to ride my bike yesterday but I went out and the battery was dead. Oh no love love my little thing hooked up to it and drain the battery but I should be able to go again tomorrow. I got news for you though I tried a new game. Okay what you got what do you got horizon zero dawn. Oh, the first one. Okay so you're playing horizon zero dawn okay okay okay I recommended that game to you. That's one of the reasons I got it are you playing early and thoroughly enjoying it awesome moment now. Okay, I have been playing it this morning. Okay so talk to me about where you are have you just started the game like what's no I've got to where I can tame the horses and I've gone through the trials and you've gone through the trials. Okay, okay. Yeah, yeah, you got some man I'm so happy because you know I I try to tell people like this is a quality game. It is and and most people don't realize it until they get their hands on it it's one of those games where you can't explain it, but you can give the game and be like five seconds they'll understand oh this is a good game I'm going to play from beginning to end. Yeah, that's an important thing. Right, you're like it's caveman. You're kind of like a caveman and you're like getting resources. Oh so it's like a resource management game where you don't have no technology and it's like no no no but you also have sci fi stuff too. And there are robots is like so it's a sci fi game where you just program computers all day it's like no no no it's both of those put together and they have no idea how that works and he's like you just have to play the game. Yeah, and it's really fun. You're gonna have a really fun time with that game I guarantee it. I'm sure. I'm really happy to hear that to single player adventures. You've been playing a lot of multiplayer games to the only issue with those is they tend to be. They tend to rely on the interactions with other people. And we all know how solid those can be. How positive. Yeah, it paints the sort of gamer I am, but to have a catered single player experience where you can just feel your power curve and people programed respond to that and the empowerment that that feels the challenges that are catered just for we expect only one person to do this will be hard, but you can do it by your own. That's such a great experience to have there will be a part of the game where you have to go to another area of the map, and you start to realize how big the world is. And you think, Oh my gosh, I thought I was playing this game for like this much. Now it's like, Oh, this is fun because now I can actually explore it's going to be really really great. So I remember playing that game overnight that when that game dropped for PC, I was so happy because I thought it would only be on PlayStation and now that's on PC. But that's a great way to stay entertained. Wouldn't you agree Larry? Oh yeah, especially when you're 73 years old. I used to dance, do karate, do all kinds of things, but my knees are blown. Oh no, okay, my hips and all, but I can play games so I do nice. Yeah, we can make virtual hip dancing for you. Don't worry though in heaven you'll have all the knees and hips support. But you'll also have what in my opinion would be is the best entertainment in the world. This entertainment is being able to and now, before we have the Christians jump on, I'm just saying this is an explanation for describing why we have evil. What's the what's the issue with evil? And I have this interesting idea based on a conversation I've had. So it's not entirely my idea, but heaven is forever. But heaven can also potentially be boring in some senses. Why? Because you don't have any sort of entertainment. And so how do you, but you can have a boring heaven. So what kind of entertainment exists in heaven to keep you entertained, right? You've got what better entertainment than to be able to like look into the lives of people. Like you have a big screen TV and you just have a channel and every person's life is a channel, right? So you have a billion channel, billions of billions of channels. Anytime you want to you can flip a button, turn on your TV, flip your channels and go into the life of someone who's living a life right now on earth. There's a common trope among Christians, too, that, you know, your parents are looking down on you. Exactly. Your grandmother or whatever is watching you. Yes. Yes, it's looking over your grandbabies looking over your great, great Kenjo and making sure everyone's right. Speaking up being their little ghost helpers or telling them, hey, don't go down that path. You can have some interaction buttons if your your points are high. Yeah, you got a million channels up there. Seven billion channels, I guess. And some of them are X rated. Oh, no, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's that too. Maybe not in heaven. Maybe not in heaven. Maybe that's the other place that we're thinking about. But I would say this, you can interact, but you can mostly just watch. And so if you wanted to see, if you want to experience someone winning the lottery, you can flip to the channel. You can flip to the lottery channel and just nonstop get the delight of people scratching that ticket and finding that they have the winning numbers and you feel so good because they feel so good. And they're like, wow, this is great. I'm getting the same experience they had. This is amazing. So you can get those wonderful experiences, baby showers, people proposing, getting accepted to going to a wedding, promotions, lotteries, as I said before, graduating. But you can also get some of the more terrible stuff to say you get tired of all the good stuff happening and you need to like spice it up a bit. Maybe you want to see what's it like to get shot. You flip to this purple getting shot channel. What's it like to be homeless living under a bridge and you can flip to the people living under a bridge channel and be like, oh, okay, this is pretty, this is pretty good. I need some drama. I need some suspense. Can you give me the channel where someone's running from their lives through an alley with a gang of people trying to chase them down and beat them to death with a melee weapon. I just changed the channel just before happens. All the suffering on earth is for purpose. And the purpose is to entertain the people in heaven. So they can have something to watch and have fun with. And you might say, Larry, I know what you're saying you're scoffing because you say that's terrible. I was like, no, because, because you're going to be in heaven forever. Think about that. It's infinity. It's an infinite symbol over a temporary. Let's talk about the infinity of infinity divided by zero is still in infinity. It's still a lot. Let me ask you this. How long is five billion years to infinity. I'm sorry, what's up. How long is five billion years to infinity. Infinity. You said from five billion to infinity. How do you when you compare five billion years to infinity, how much is that it's an infinite difference is a tiny, tiny, tiny spec of time. Compared to infinity, right? Absolutely. Well, in five billion years, our son is going to swell up to such a size that will kill all the humans on earth and everything else, by the way. So what are we going to do after that? We'll have to get channels that go blank. We'll have Netflix. I will have Netflix. We'll have who will have all those episodes, all of history that we can go back through and watch individual replays. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all replays. We're good. Yeah, yeah. The classics will have all the sign films will have all at the end of at the end of infinity. If it ever, it never gets close to it, then well, everything will be replays and classics and old. I played a million times. But you have five billion years of replays. Think about that. Meeting for Star Trek conventions from off the first season, like, you're going to have your fandoms, you're going to have your groups are going to be playoff games. That's how you keep people entertained. If it really gets that bad. How entertaining would some peon's life if I'm like the middle of the dark ages be? I don't know. Why are you getting upset? This is for you. This is this is for your entertainment, Larry. And you're saying it's not very, I mean, it's the value of that particular entertainment wouldn't last very long, I guess. It's what I was saying. I heard infinity. I hear what you're saying compared to infinity. I hear what you're saying. You're saying there's literally nothing. I mean, what are you going to do for your three trillionth birthday? And after you learn to master every instrument that was ever invented, right, right, right, right. It's a lot. We'd all basically, you know, we'd all basically become board gods at the end of the day. Maybe we'd start our own wars or our own planets or something like that. Maybe the Mormons are right. Is that what you're saying? The Mormons are right. Well, if we all become gods, then it'd be kind of like a Greek tragedy. We'd all find planets to govern and set people against each other just for our entertainment. Right. So the problem with me on that and yeah, you have a right. There's you have a point. There's nothing I can do for infinite an infinite amount of time that would ever keep me entertained, even if it was vastly varied because I'm going to exhaust it all. My brain needs new things to stay entertained. That's just how we are. We grow and we like to grow, right? At least we should. I could definitely imagine if you were to take that aspect away from me, then we're not talking about me anymore. We're talking about some sort of programmed brain and of that. That's no longer Tyrone. And if that's what my soul is and that's put to heaven, that's great, but that's not me. And that's right. That's what I care about. And so if I go to heaven, I want to be exposed to novel stuff. I want to learn new things. And if I'm here for an infinite amount of time, I will eventually run out of stuff. Just is by factor of how things are. And we haven't even considered the alternative. What's up? Not going to heaven. Haha. Yeah. And eternity there. Yeah, that sucks. I mean, what, what could a person possibly do that would warrant being burned for eternity? I mean, even Hitler with all the people that he killed. If you took all the people he killed and added up all the lives that he robbed them of would not approach eternity. You know, seven million dead or eight million dead. You know, times what they live 50 years after, you know, it's only so much amount of time. He should at least be out good after say a million years of. Yeah, so it's like infinite, infinite punishment for a finite crime is. And most people, according to the religious go to hell for not believing as the religious believe. Is that worthy of eternal torture? Right. I mean, there's no fairness there. And God is supposed to be loving a loving God is more than more merciful than just fair. And maybe there's so much contradictions there. Right. And perhaps a highlight to like our, yeah, just for not believing in a God that refuses to make them self explicitly clear to you back in justification for internal punishment. And getting back to your original question. You mentioned five minutes ago. 10 was where did evil come from? Oh, where did evil come from? According to the Bible, Isaiah 457 came from. What? No, Isaiah 457 and King James Version. I formed the light and create darkness. I make peace and create evil. I have the Lord do all these things. That's just one verse. There's no out of context or anything. It's all. I made everything. Right. So when evil. Yeah, you've made sin. You made the devil when you are the arbiter of the rules and how to break them and create the vices that make us break them. It's sort of like, it throws me back to like just square one. A lot of things that are sinful that are explicitly sinful in the Bible don't have to exist. Yet God makes them exist. And that goes from shellfish to fabrics and mixed cloth to even formats of sex with body parts that seem to perfectly fit each other. Right. Why? Why? Why makes round pegs for round holes? If they're if they if that was the most blasphemous thing that you could do, there's so many other different kinds of designs for things we could have had. You could have had a pollinating system. You could have a right angle turn. There's so many things you could have done. But yet you you made it so easy and then said, by the way, that's super, super bad. And if you do it, that's bad. It's like, then why did you make gay people? Like if gay people is bad, why'd you make gay people? And it doesn't matter in the end. I mean, if you read the Bible and, you know, they tell you all these things you shouldn't do. And when it comes right down to it, what will send you to hell? Not accepting Jesus as your as your savior. That's the one thing that will send you to hell. And why don't you just give us no matter what else you do, if you accept him as your savior, you go to heaven. It doesn't matter. Even, you know, the ultimate bad example Hitler was a Christian. He was a Catholic. And you know that he, before he committed suicide or was killed at the end that he accepted. How do they know that? How do they know that? How do they, how do they know that? We don't survive. Yeah. I know they say that for Albert Einstein. I know, for example, they went to a, a senile Albert Einstein, a Catholic did and forced him to confess his soul to God. And they use that as proof of him being Christian the entire time, like this great mind. But he'd never lived a life of. No. He had no personal God. He said so himself in his writings. Exactly. You know, it also reminds me of like North Korea and like you were talking about hell. You haven't to know of a story of a person that was connotating atheism. So like we're talking about before people who connotate great minds with Christianity. People connotate bad things with atheism. I think that it's somewhat misleading. And you had an example for North Korea, for example. Yeah, I get notifications by by Google from Google. Whenever there's an article that mentions atheism that enter atheists. And I got one this morning, the article was written. It said the title of it was my time in the atheist hell of North Korea. And you know that it was written by by a Christian because they would consider anything in that bad as being atheists. However, North Korea is not an atheist nation. They their president is a dead person. They got and they call him a God. He's gotten they worship him. And his offspring are also worshiped as God. Dead or alive. Right. They are ruled by a necrosis. Right. There is a there is a supernatural dogma that comes to the belief system of the the leaders of Korea. Like it's not just. Oh, these are the old presidents. No, it's like these guys walk down to my mountain. To control physics with their intent. Bless fields to make them prosper and grow. Protect us from foreign invaders with just their willpower alone. There's a variety of like supernatural aspects that come with. That that's not something a regular person can do. And the response to that would be well, because they're not regular people. There are super beings and and their proof of their existence is the fact that their lineage still is here. And we pray to them and honor them. On a regular basis so that we will be protected. Continue to be. It's a religious state. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's a real it's a religion in its own right. Honestly. With just, you know, some modernism behind it. Because, you know, They have like a broken down version in order to maintain a religion like that. Here I put it. You have to limit the access to information that the people have. Which is really surprising because North Korea could learn a lot from how Americans operate because they'd say, wait, you believe in Jesus. And you have the internet and books. Why are we working so hard when you're that gullible? Maybe we could just like, Maybe we could just open up our borders because I don't think people are as critical thinking as we originally were working with. But yeah, it's, it's a shame. My weird little needle to this story. Of an atheist. Larry is that if you're an atheist, you don't. Follow with hell. Right. So like the two terms. You know what? You don't, you don't, you don't subscribe to the idea or. Yeah. So like. And generally not the concept of the soul. Right. So like, I have no concept. Yeah, exactly. It's like, I don't have an atheist soul. I don't have a atheist. Hell. There's nowhere in the world where I'd say like, oh, that's an atheist. Hell right there. It's just. It is. It's a misnomer that's provided from a Christian lens. It's a boogeyman. Yes. It's basically Christian putting together words. Of two bad things. I'm putting them together. I'm putting them together. I'm putting them together. I'm putting them together. I'm putting them together. I'm putting them together without realizing that this is oil and water, and they honestly don't mix together. And it only speaks more to the fact that. When you want to find out what an atheist is, when you want to find out what atheism is all about, don't go to a Christian to figure that out. Like when someone describes anything as an atheist, hell, they're likely talking about two things. They have no idea about a supernatural landscape of hell. And to what atheism is and what it's all about. And you've probably stopped listening to this person with any of those two, because they're not nearly an authority on those. As they will. It's one of the articles I have on my blog is called, why would you go to your preacher for information about atheism? You know, it's like talking to your prison garden on an escape plan. Yeah, I have had conversations with people who were Christians only because they were raised that way. And we're very adamant that they knew everything about atheism. And I, when I let them know I'm an atheist, they, and I do it in a really friendly way. You know, they get immediately shooken up. And I'm like, Hey, if you have questions about atheism, I'll happily tell you about it. It's like, no, I know everything about atheism. Like, well, how that would be the equivalent of me saying, well, I know everything about Christianity because I talk to you, right? And that's not necessarily. Well, they haven't talked to you about it at that point. They just talk to you. But yeah, they have these preconceived notions that as soon as you say you're an atheist, they, they are blown and they don't want to let them go. So, you know, the first time I told anybody that was no, well, I guess it was the first time I really just came out and told somebody that I was an atheist. It was, it was a lady and she said, Oh, no, you're not. Oh, no, you're not. Yeah. Yeah. Because it conflicted with a preconceived notion of what an atheist was, because she knew me. Right, right, right. True. But like when I started telling people that I was an atheist, I was actually surprised because I thought everyone around me was Christian. And I was shocked. I was just as shocked when I heard other people tell me, Oh, I'm an atheist too. And these are people that I either liked or didn't even like. I'd be like, wait, I didn't even like you and you're an atheist. I might like you more. Yeah. Yeah. Like there is something about someone not believing in an imaginary being that's controlling the entire universe, even that, even if on a personality level, you don't like them. Just the fact that you guys are on that same page is like, I got a lot more respect for you. Leaving out of this. I was like, okay, at least, at least you're aware and with it and reasonable. Right. Second chance. Yeah. No, I made a lot of those after starting. The Atheist Society of Knoxville, but they generally turned out to be great people anyway. Fantastic. Hey, we're at the bottom of the half hour. I want to start with a before we head out. There was a comment that we got from K M P M six QE who said, ASK as an ask. I love that. So shout out to the Atheist Society of Knoxville. Very good. All right. Larry, take us out. Okay. Let me bring this. I should know about how to know this is the digital free thought radio hour on W O Zio radio 103.9 LP FM here in Knoxville, Tennessee. We'll be right back after this short break. Welcome back to the second half of the digital free thought radio hour. I'm doubter five or Larry Rhodes. We're on W O Zio radio 103.9 LP FM Knox in Knoxville, Tennessee. Let's take just a moment to talk about the Atheist Society of Knoxville or ASK. It was founded in 2002. We're in our 21st year now have over 1000 members. And we have weekly in person meetings every Tuesday evening in Knoxville's old city at Barley's taproom in pizzeria. Look for us inside at the high top table or if it's pretty weather outside on the deck. You can also find us online at Facebook meetup.com or at our website. Knoxville Atheist.org. You can also just Google Knoxville Atheist is just that simple. By the way, if you don't live in Knoxville, you should still go to meet up and do a search for an Atheist group in your town. Don't find one. Start one. That's right. Where do you want to pick up? I have a fun topic. It's one that we tend to go on tanges with normally on every show, but we just made it a little segment for it. And this one's called God's a bully. And I'm not saying this in the sense of man, what atheists do all days, they just think about why they hate God so much. In fact, that's the exact opposite of what we do. But it is fun when the subject of God has brought up why certain things that stick out to people who have a bit more of a met sacred mindset, don't immediately stand out to those who have a Christian mindset. So that's why it's a fun topic of conversation. So what I want to bring up was God's a bully. And why I want to bring that up was Larry, you were looting to it earlier. The idea that you can punish someone infinitely or even just an inordinate amount of time for crimes that range from murder, genocide to the shellfish they eat, the people they love. The whole idea is totally disproportionate to the problem, to the crime. Right. It's like you, you ate an apple that I gave to you and that's evil. I'm punishing you. I'm punishing you. Your children, your children's children, your children's children's children's like, when does this end? It doesn't end. Yeah. And who's responsible for putting that apple in the first place? This is the first sin that we did exactly. Oh, that's a great name. I'm going to call that the first sin. It's like, but we literally didn't know good or bad before we even did it. The apple told us what was good or bad. It's like true, but it's still bad. Disobedience. We didn't know disobedience was wrong. But you literally gave us a snake to tell us to eat it. We were not going to eat the apple until you told us where the apple was and what to do with it. He's omniscient. He knows everything. He knew what was going to happen. So he was just laying a trap for humanity and we fell right into it in the same as we were. It's not a trap. It's like that was the intention. It's like, if I, if I go to a, if I bought a Lego set, I keep telling people this, if I bought a Lego set and the Lego set has a picture of a red car on it, right? It's a model red car and I go home and I take out the pieces and I have red car pieces and I put four tires on the, on the, on the top of a red car piece and I have a red car piece. That's not a trap. That was the intent. That's the point. I mean, when you're trying to track a wolf or something, you put out a trap with the intention. Okay. I hear you. I hear you, but there's a difference between like a chance of it not happening and me manufacturing every single step and putting it together. Like when I fabricate something by its design, that's me. I did that. I didn't trap myself. I just did something like, I didn't trap the car into become the Lego pieces into becoming a car. I just made them into a car. I can't turn around and be like, Oh, that's you. I trapped you or like, I got you. There was no, there's no agency. The you was being an example of, but you're saying it's the, the example of being God. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like Adam and Eve had no agency in this sense because they had no idea of right or wrong. They had no awareness of their actions. They had no awareness of where to get these pieces. They were just things that God made and put together and said, uh, now your fault. It's like, no, you did this. This is all you. If this is like, I like to say, he could have taken the apple tree or the fruit tree and put it on the moon. Exactly. Put it in the middle of the, of the garden. He could have made it 10 feet tall and just said, I don't, there's no ladders. Don't worry about it. There's so many different kinds of trees you could have made where it's just like an overhanging thing. You could have made it a rock that was 10 feet under the ground and gave them no shovels and they would never figure it out. So why make it an apple? Why make it an apple? And if it was an apple, why make it such that eating this apple will biochemically break down into better knowledge for someone's right. And before we get a lot of a male, it's not an apple. We know it's not an apple. We know, we know it's a fruit. We know, but I'm just saying you could have made it something that was inedible. You could have made it like a cloud. You could have made it intangible. You could have made it hard as a rock and they couldn't eat it. You could have made it a scroll in a language they couldn't understand. And there's so many different ways you could have formatted that, but you wanted this. God wanted this to happen. When I say you, you're right. I should be more clear. God wanted this to happen with such intentionality that you can't just turn around and be like, oh, but it was a trap for him. And it's like, no, it was a thing that God did that he's now angry at us for. For no, for no reason. Like my car. And everybody that we have every children, we had the whole way down the line, even though what they didn't do anything. Right. Right. So I'm going to drive my car and I say, I'm going to drive to Knoxville. I'm going to go check you out later and I'm going to drive back home and my car runs out of gas. That's not a trap that my, that I can blame my car for. That's me because I know the mileage of my car. I should know where the gas stations are. The only person to blame is me if I run out of gas. And the idea that you can blame that on people is. Yeah. It's a fairy tale. It's a mother goose. If you look at it with all the elements that we know go into fairy tales. And if I'm an outside perspective, you will see that it's a just so story. It's why it's a story built to explain things we don't understand without the story. And people say, well, that's the old Testament. It shouldn't change. Like, okay, fine. Well, you know, leaving aside the fact that God's perfect and shouldn't change. Let's just take it to this level where if I have a neighbor and let's say my neighbor loves me very, very much. He loves me so much that he yesterday he took out his son and walked him out in front of his front yard, put a wreck to this big piece of wood and took out some hammers and just started nailing his son to this, this wooden stake. And I look at him and I'm like, Hey, what are you doing that your son screaming out of pain? And he looks at me very confidently, very smugly. He's like, I'm doing this for you. I'm like, I didn't ask you to do that. He's like, I'm doing it for you. Calm down. This is part of the plan. I'm like, you should go to jail. We should get child services over here. Citizens arrest. Citizens arrest. This is we're going to be ambulance. We're going to take this kid away from you and keep him away from you. You shouldn't be. And you would. And that's not even, that's not even talking about Abraham and his son. Oh yeah. We've moved on to New Testament. We're talking strictly New Testament now. I'm saying like that story makes no sense. That is a, that is in any other context, but I'm not going to say what are you doing? Why are you doing? It's like, because he loves you so much. He gave his one and only son a part of him. You know, truly like one single body. To your sins. I'm like, one. I don't care to, I didn't ask for that three. That's really terrible. For we still have sent. For it wasn't even that effective. And the whole thing about the, the global flood wasn't that evil. We still got people. Hmm. Yeah. It's a real problem. It's not an effective measure to, to, to nail your own family to crosses for the sake of other people. You know, it'd be one thing if I asked for that, you know, like a lot of the things in the Bible, particularly in the New Testament is just a sequence of, Oh, but I didn't ask for that. Thank you though. No, thank you. And it's goes from Mary's pregnancy. You know, we're talking about like bronze era in a time where honor killings are still a thing. An angel going up to a lady and being like, Hey, you're pregnant now. Congratulations. And the lady's like, Oh no, that's a death sentence. That's a death sentence. That's literally a death sentence. Like, she was no married. I literally will need to run away from my family now. This is like not a good situation. Like, no, no, no. Everybody's going to know that you, you gave birth that you're pregnant. Everybody's going to know it's going to be amazing. It's like, no, no, no, no, I don't want this. Too bad you're pregnant. It was like, Oh, that's, I'm not even married. Think about the personal touch. God didn't even tell her himself. He said an errand boy to tell him, tell her, I mean, Right, right. That's a terrible situation. You know, and of course, the story that I keep bringing up is there's one, there's one example of consent being accepted in the Bible. I would probably say it's the only one and the best one where there's a supernatural being that's asking something of a human and the human says no, thank you. And the supernatural being is like, I respect that. See you later and just goes away. And the only time that happens is when it's got Jesus being tried or going through trials on a mountaintop away from his followers. And the Satan comes down to Jesus and he's like, Jesus is up there for multiple days and Satan is like, Hey, you know, there's a whole, you can look at this whole town and if you worship me, I will let everybody in that town worship you. Like I can make that happen. And if you want to, I can even give you powers. I can, I can do anything you want. I'm just talking about the entire world. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can make this really easy for you. And Jesus is like, get away from me, Satan. I don't need your help. I refuse to worship you. I will never worship you. I'm the best ever. And Jesus and Satan's like, okay, that's fine. I can accept that. And he goes away. There's no punishment. There's no retribution. He wasn't talking about God. He wasn't talking to God. I mean God is the one thing. Just how many people did the devil killing. No, exactly. Yeah, the death count is actually remarkably low. I don't even think there's a direct as Joe's family. And that was after God gave him permission to do it. to do it. And God could have stopped it from happening too, honestly. And that was part of the bet that God was betting on that. It's like, hey, why aren't we betting human lives and stuff. Right, right, right. But honestly, the idea of saying just being like, Oh, that's fine. I can respect that. And he just goes away. And like, nothing bad happens. I always feel, and it's always hard for me to express this in a way that's that's meaningful. But I always feel like the Bible is written from the point of view of a tyrant, writing his own autobiography, where everything that he's doing that's absolutely objectively terrible is framed as if it's actually really cool and interesting with his intent. But if you just look at it outside outside or test of faith, love me or I will punish you forever. Let me kill my son to absolve you of rules that you that I made that you broke. Right. Let me drown all the babies on earth so I can do a fresh restart, you know, but I'll give you a rainbow. I'll give you a rainbow. Yeah. So it but I always feel like and and this is just me. I know these are fake characters. I know this isn't real, but it sort of speaks to how oblivious the people were who wrote the Bible, right? Because they only wanted big powerful figures. That was the whole idea of the Bible. But if if this was real characters, it almost feels as if Satan is the character that's the good guy who just sneaks in and is always trying to be honest, respectful and and and self aware of enough to not try to alert the tyrant of what his agenda is, but to demonstrate how being should be. So in the Garden of Evil, what's he doing? He's telling Adam and Eve the truth. And he's expressing that with no weird conditions. That's what's for every saying. Listen, if you eat this, you're going to have this happen to you. God's not telling you that. But this is what you need to do in order to like be on this path. And you should eat this. You have a right to do it. Like your your life currently doesn't have a purpose. Going up to heaven and and showcasing that I as the leader of hell can it can be invited to heaven and and bet on people's lies. And I can put this in a framework where it makes me seem like the bad guy in the book. But honestly, you should be thinking like, who is God's bedfellows? If he can invite people from hell and and put wages on his followers. Well, you got to remember that Satan was an angel. Mm hmm. He started off as an angel was just being really pretty. And God was like, you're not as pretty as me. I was like, is that literally why I'm being sent to hell? Yes. I'm like, okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. I'm just a pretty angel. Like did I kill anybody? No, I kill people. So okay, so I'm just I'm just a pretty guy. Yeah, you thought you were as pretty as me, but no one's as pretty as me. I'm God. It's like fair enough. Fair enough. That's that's worth internal damnation as the the main figurehead of hell. But the interaction he had with Jesus on that mound. Every single time devil shows up, it's always like, hey, I'm here to respect your time. Here's the situation. I'll tell you honestly. And if you say no, I'll accept that and move away. If you swap those personalities and you just had a God that was like willing to be honest, show up and and and not be like, oh, there's a burning bush. That must be God. Oh, there's a dove in my shoulder. That might just be God. No devil will show up and be like, hey, hi, how are you? I'm the devil. Let me explain to you what's going on here. Like if God could just do that and just say, hey, I'm God. By the way, you were you're born. I'm expressing myself to you so you can we can start this early. Here's a relationship I want to have with you. I'll check in with you every 10 years or something like that. It would be nice to have like that because God had intervened in other people's lives before yet for whatever reason he stopped now. And why should we hold ourselves to the same standard of belief for people who had the direct interventionist God in their lives to just hold us to a difference to hold us at the same standard with much lower evidence just seems inherently unfair and bully like. And it's always really bothering. And the whole thing about hell anyway is like God loves you, but he'll send you to hell if you if you don't accept his son as his god and savior. Basically, it's love with a gun to your head. Yeah, it's an abusive relationship. Yeah, you are worth nothing. You know, but I will take care of you. And you know, if you worship me, it's it's like the epitome of abuse. And it's never just accept God, right? It's now that you accept God. Now you have to pay me 10% of your paycheck and you have to stop having sex in this particular way. And you have to dress this certain way. And you have to show up a church at these particular times. And if we ask you to do something, you have to be a soldier of the truth. You have to listen to this guy who speaks to God and trust whatever he says and edicts that he passes down. There's a lot more to it than just accept Jesus because anyone can say that as they would say, but it's a lifestyle change that is well, that brings us back to Pascal's wager that they use so often. Okay, go. It says you should believe in God anyway, because if you don't believe, you could lose everything. If you do believe, even if it's it's wrong, you haven't lost anything. But if it's right, you know, you gain everything in the world. You haven't lost anything if it's wrong. And the thing about it is, you know, they forget where I'm going now. But oh, yeah, that you have to, if you accept the wager and God's not real, you have lost things. You lost the time, the money, the self respect if you don't believe. But you just accept it beyond to because of the wager, you lose your self respect and you put yourself under the control of preachers. Right. And people don't realize that part. My sister is a Muslim and she prays five times a day. And I asked her, wouldn't you like to get that time back? And she's like, I only pray five times a day. I'm like, yeah, but like how much time is that is like five minutes? It's like, no, it's about like 10 minutes each day. I'm like, that's an hour every day. So like seven hours a week. Like you could learn to play instruments in that time, game, get new hobbies, hang out with friends, make new food. Like there's so much at the end of a year, we're talking about, oh my gosh, thousands of out like this, that's a lot of time. That's a lot of time. And I would say, you know, if I was ever my death bed, I would say, man, I'd love to get those hundreds of thousands of hours back rather than just being with my eyes closed, had forehead to the ground, appeasing the other people who are praying around me that their God is true. Right. And and using that time more in my interest, because who who am I satisfying when I do this? And I multiply all of the members of your family if you're the household head, you know, and you make everybody do it. Right. It's sort of like having a commute to work and you're not going anywhere. You're just getting your car and you're just driving in one big circle around town and you're just doing this. You're like, where did you go today in one big circle? It's like, why would why would you do that? Why would you put the miles in your car? Just sit there like, what's the point? It's like, don't tell, this is my lifestyle. I was like, you're putting carbon in the air. What are you doing? Like, just do something. I'll get my reward after I die. That's literally it, you know. Yeah, you're putting pennies what you think is it a piggyback. Perfect Ponzi scheme. You never have to pay off. But I also have another friend of mine who is a Muslim who was a scientist, a colleague of mine. And he said that he prays to keep his family safe. And there's a dynamic to the two. So you talked about Pascal's wager. The reason why he he was an atheist, but the reason but he when he is in his country, and I don't want to explicitly say which one, but it was dominated by Islam, he would pray to in front of other people at these community areas where you pray just so that everybody knew he was Muslim. Because if he didn't, that would be a problem for the safety of his family and peer pressure. It's it's it's when we say peer pressure in America, we think, oh, she's going to call him fat. It's like, no, these people are going to come to my house and kill my family if they don't think that I'm with this because I'm the side of pressure. Yeah, there's a there's a threat of intimidation. Yes, intimidation. It's a true threat. And I couldn't. And so when he got another job so he can continue to support his family, but it was near an area that he would have to move back to back overseas. I felt bad for him. And he felt bad, too, because he would have to continue the charade of maintaining this this belief. And who's to say he wasn't the only one like he would pray so hard that he would have a little ring on his head, right? And that indication that he was praying that other people would look for and use as a judgment. And anyone who didn't have that ring on their head would be suspect in their particular social circles. That is that's such a tell how evil it can be, you know, and the bullying that can extend to not just the leader of the bullies, but the followers of the bullies and how they bully each other. That's how a system like that works. All right. So I don't consider this bullying, Larry, but have you ever been told bless you in a nice way? Have you ever been told? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I definitely do. I mean, talk to me about it. Well, it's like every time I go into it pretty much every time I do a restaurant, especially new restaurants, because I know restaurants that I go to that it doesn't happen. But, uh, you know, the waitress will say bless you. And then the cashier will say bless you. You know, I have a blessed day. It's not like bless you for a sneeze. Right. This is, you know, have a blessed day type of thing. But you just let it slide. I mean, because, you know, it's, you know, that's how they express themselves. What? Now, as I listen, I follow all the atheist stereotypes. I am on all the atheist reddits. That's unacceptable. That never happens. Whenever an atheist is told bless you, they immediately start a dialogue. I certainly feel like I should say something. Where they break down the person's belief and makes them feel like an idiot. Why aren't you doing the thing you're supposed to do? Where's your atheist card? Let me cut a corner off. That is not what you're supposed to be. Everybody has their own, you know, more races they follow. But that's not one of mine. I think there are much better hills to die on. Yeah, I've actually been in a conversation with believers who are talking amongst themselves who assumed I was a believer too. And they're like, yeah. And what's the deal with atheists always getting angry with people saying bless you and stuff like that? And I just commonly said, well, I'm an atheist and I have no problem with people saying bless you. And that stopped an entire conversation because I don't think those people ever saw an atheist to begin with. And I think, one, it's important to let people know you're an atheist for that reason. But two, when people say bless you, it's more of a contextual environment of self expression, right? So like if I'm in Rome, and let's say I'm maybe a bit back and forth in time, and they say, the gods be with you. I'm fine with that because they believe in multiple gods. If I'm in India and they have a what do they say, Salamat Pagi, there's like a more what is it? It's more of a godly way of saying good morning. And there's definitely, you know, similar like a salam for peace beyond to you. There's people are just with you at will. That's it. And what gets me is you can, if you are the one atheist who has, takes exception to it, the waitress or whatever will think that there's only one atheist since she met that day when she might have met 20. He said, I'm not a real jerk today. He was an atheist. Right. And there you are. You know, she's you know, she could have been meeting him all day long without knowing it. Right. Right. And it's only the one that made an upset fuss about it that starts the stereotype. So maybe maybe a better response would be, hey, I'm an atheist, but bless you too. That would be a nice way of saying it. I have to try that. Yeah, I was to think about that. That might be worth that might be a worthwhile never. My main thing though, and here's where I draw the line. Someone can wish me bless you. I have no problem with that. The problem I have is when someone starts to force me to bless their God. And when they do so, it's is examples of them putting God bless America on my license plate. And I'm thinking this is a state issue or money plate. Don't put it on my money. Take it off of money ideally. Don't put it on my license plate. Don't make me sign up. Don't have like when I'm doing like a driver's exam or something like that, make the section. What's your religion? Don't bother me on Saturday by coming to my door. You don't hand me pamphlets when I'm walking on the streets. Yeah, don't leave stuff in my doorway about how Jesus is going to save me and stuff like that. Like don't don't not pay taxes if you're going to start taking up land in our area. Like when I see like land being excavated and it's not a home or business, but rather another church. And we and I can look down that same street and see two other churches just on separate blocks from each other. And I know this is another tax free building. I know no. Well, there can't be another school here because the churches and paying property taxes, the school is going to be underfunded. That sucks. I want to see. I want to have a world where I'm not forced to worship your God because any Christian wouldn't want to be forced to worship a law. Any Muslim wouldn't want to be forced to worship Jehovah. So why are we mandating these expressions in a governance sense? Like on our government issued stuff, money, license plate. In some cases, your work titles and other cases, like when you try to apply for things, your religion shows up. We talked last week about court cases or you can't even raise your kids or the fact that you could be nonbeliever could be used against you in terms of custody cases. Like why is that a factor? Like in if it being governed by a truly objective party, it shouldn't matter what our religious foundation is. Other things that courts do is like if you're brought in for public alcoholism, they may send you to AA, which is a religious-based habit-breaking association that will also send you to Christian counseling. If you're having marriage troubles or something, for the genie counseling, they'll enforce it there. Larry, I'm very upset with you because you took your motorcycle and you rammed it into the back of my car. And I know you're an atheist and you mean well, but that's damaged. I'm going to have to take you to court. So they take us both to court. And the first thing they do at court is try to swear a testimony. And they give us a Bible. And they're like, do you swear on this Bible to tell the truth, the whole truth? And you're like, no, I don't want the Bible. And they give it to me. It's like, I don't want the Bible either. They're like, well, no one's testifying. We're going to have to fill this court case out. And I'm like, dang it, Larry, you got me again. You got me. I would ask to swear on the Constitution or something, something out of respect. Right. So like, don't force us to or either inadvertently or inadvertently to give dues to your God. But you, as your own right, can feel free to express it. That's where I draw the line. So if someone says, bless you in a cashier, as I'm checking out, not an issue. But if someone tries to etch that onto my license plate, I got a problem with that. Please don't do that. Please don't force me to worship your God. You know, I live by rules that your religion teaches or swears to your God. If I need to tell the truth, which is such a dumb thing to even it is. Yeah. Oh, man, Larry, we're almost at the end of the show. Anyway, hopefully we had an entertaining talk. Thank you guys so much for all the comments. Let me throw up one more. Como, oh my gosh, Como você, Fabulis says great chat, guys. And he said also at the 17 mark. Thank you so much. And guys, data's trading room is saying live. He has some corrections on some of the things that we were saying about Bronze Age. That makes sense. We don't get our dates. Absolutely. You don't have any questions? There is one that says it wasn't an apple, guys. We appreciate the feedback. Thank you, guys. You know, you're right. It's a fruit. I'd be facetious, but you're right. There is explicit terms and we need to make sure we get them right. But in big swings, we aren't just entertainment for heaven. We are people. We have agency and we matter. North Korean isn't Korea isn't an atheist hell. They in fact have a religion. It's just religions don't call it a religion because they want to seem austere and but right. Well, it's a bad place. So they're going to say it's an atheist place. It's yeah, yeah, yeah. They don't want to just call it another religion. But yeah, that's absolutely. But also anyone who says it is hell. Don't take them for credit because those words don't combine together mean anything. God is a bully. Deal with it. And if someone says bless you, it's not a problem. Someone tries to etch bless you on your property or on your body or use that to deny the fact that they don't have to pay taxes to contribute like a meaningful member society. That's a problem. And that's where we drive away. Larry, that was my final words. Go ahead and take us out. OK. Well, if you're having trouble leaving religious beliefs behind and many do, you can get help from recovering from religion. It's recovering from religion.org. And that is their website address as well. My content can be found at digitalfreethought.com. Be sure to click on the blog button for a radio show archives, atheist songs and many articles on the subject of atheism. My YouTube channel handle is at doubter five. And you can find my book on atheism called atheism with it all about on Amazon. Remember, everybody is going to some other religions. Hell, the time to worry about it is when they prove that heavens and hells and souls are real. Until then, don't sweat it. Enjoy your life. And we'll see you next Wednesday night at 7 o'clock. Say bye, everybody. Bye everybody. And that's a wrap. Yay. Yeah, I enjoyed that. All right. Wrap up. Enjoy Horizon Zero Dawn. It's a really, really good game. I highly, highly recommend it. I'm so glad that you're playing that. You made my week. You made my week. Give me an update next week. If we. OK, well, thanks for recommending that. I'll watch my spoilers. But you're going to have a really fun time. There will be parts where you're like playing the game. You're like, this looks so cool. Yeah. Oh, it does. It's a beautiful game. You know, great vistas and everything. Yeah, it's so cool. And then you just get to explore it. You're just exploring. You're like, this is fun. This is just one of the famous favorite parts of games like that is just exploring. Yeah. Yeah. You just pick a point on the map and just go. And there's cool stuff that happened along the way. I hope you got the DLC too. The DLC is also really good. All right. OK. Take care.