 Welcome to the Monday, November 5th meeting of the Montpelier Design Review Committee. I will let staff and members introduce themselves. Hannah Smith. Meredith Crandall. Staff. Stephen Everett. Eric Gilbertson. Seth Mitchell. Benjamin Cheney. Unless anybody has anything else to offer ahead of time, do I hear a motion to approve the agenda? I'll move it. Second. All in favor of the agenda, raise your hand. And we'll move straight to the first application for 100 State Street. Continue. Come forward and show us what you've done since we last met. I think one thing we should say is we're done at 7 o'clock because we're developing the view board meeting at 7. And they had a very large agenda. So we're going to try to move forward to as quickly as we can. Although as quickly as I can. I'm going to give you these. I also have this stuff on a thumb drive. I have to ask if I can get them back at the end of the meeting so I can use them at the next board. Because we were having trouble with our printer today. So I've got one more. Does everybody have one? We can share if there's any actions we can raise. And I can put this stuff up on the thumb drive if you think it's important. Essentially we had two charges. I think coming out of this meeting we wanted to talk about the railings and the detailing of those railings. And we spent a bunch of time talking about wayfinding. And so this first plan you see L101 is the site plan with the wayfinding elements added. And they've been shown here by the front axis to the garage. Down here by the secondary exit to the garage. There's one here at the beginning of this ramp up to the bike path. And then... Isn't there a fourth one, James? Yeah, there's one on the boardwalk. Right there. So you'll see basically on the four corners of the building. So the idea for these signs was to drive with the signage wayfinding thing that is already undergoing and to provide seating opportunity at this sign as requested by you guys. So the next page shows the elevation and plan of those elements which will happen adjacent to all the major accesses to the job. Now one thing we had to ask for was a view looking from State Street back towards those entrances. Did you have something? We have the view from the top. From State Street back? We have one looking for it back to track. We ran out of time to generate another image. I do have some updated images but which is a USB board, sorry. Have you thought at all about the issue of designing these entrances? I looked at one picture of the entrance that's closest to the hotel in the alleyway. And the image that we had, I can't remember which one you showed me. But it virtually doesn't even look like there's an entrance there. Because there's trees planted in front of it or a pathway through it. There's trees planted in front of it. And it's just a square opening between the building as far as I can tell. Do you have that image? I've got everything so I'm sure I've got it here somewhere. Yeah. I'm sorry, can you point to where you were pointing? I used to have it to the garage in the hotel. To the right of the garage entry. Were we looking at one of these? Yes. It's the one right in the front there. This was the one we were looking at, Greg. Okay, okay. He sort of, there's no way you'd know there's a passageway through there. That was my issue. So I thought processes, how can we integrate this into the sign program that you're already implementing city-wide? If this were in that green space there where it's proposed and you had this sticking up, that's what we interpreted as the wayfinding. I thought that there ought to be more than a sign. I think I said that several times, it's more than a sign issue. It's an issue of making a welcoming entry than if you're going to the river graphically or some way. This is what we had to offer. I'm sorry if I misunderstood your intention, Eric. Now again, rather than block the view with landscaping, the idea was to frame it with landscaping, so it drew you to it instead of hid the entrance, unless that was your intention. Well, this rendering is a couple generations old. I think a lot has changed. At this point, the buildings were a lot closer together. Do you have in your thumb drive and the most recent rendering of real view? No, I don't think so, Eric. We generated so much 3D content for this job, it's just that's the one I missed, I guess. But I don't have any different image than that to offer you. Are you imagining, I mean, are they of equal weight, the walk between the buildings or the sort of... I think we, I personally as an architect thought that the Haney lot was going to be our sort of main path down there. I said we have to open to this sign and then another one and another one around. We figured that was enough. We were trying to basically give wayfinding the seating opportunity that you asked for. It's difficult to stick an arch or something on a building. And I guess I would agree that it feels to me like through the Haney lot is the main access to the river more so than between the hotel and the parking lot. The landscaping in front of it is part of the hotel. I don't know. I think we also talked about building about its signage on that, on the building, on the corner. It would sort of announce that entrance as a possibility. We put the seating thing there right in that location, thinking that would cover for that. I mean, we were trying to bring people to think what... Have you ever looked out of place or did a job with your other signage? Well, you know, I guess we're stuck. Because we interpreted this as sort of how do we integrate this into the broader pattern of what's happening around city to make it make sense. And so we took that direction, which had specific recommendations for certain kinds of things. The only thing we did was in this particular case is we added the seating element, which is seating elements that were already proposed for the Boardwalk portion out back. I think we talked about that we're open to any kind of art in those, in that alleyway or anything that could make a team more inviting. We definitely see it as a secondary route, but I thought that the way of finding would be enough and that seating opportunity would be sort of enough to draw your eye to it, especially from the hotel exit and entrance. This may be out of your overview, but is there a wayfinding sign out on State Street? We're not sure exactly the location of all this. This is just basically a framework within that. But there's the tourist information kiosk at the other end of the parking lot. I can't imagine there aren't going to be wayfinding signs out in State Street. I think one of the things that's shown up about this is it blocks access to the river. I don't necessarily believe that, because that's what people are commenting on to me both personally and letters to the paper and one of the letters we got in our packet last time. And what I was really trying to do is open up so that it's really clear when you're going to the river and when you're going from the river to downtown if you're on the bike path. I still feel that what James has proposed is right in keeping with that. It's out in the landscaping. It's not a building-mounted feature. But we took it on ourselves to sort of look at what else you were doing and said we should be part of that. I think integrating it into your master plan of signage seems like the right thing to do, rather than creating some kind of a unique situation just out of this area. The garage itself has about 30 feet of river frontage. It's really one Taylor Street. It's got most of the river frontage and Confluence Park on the other side of the railroad tracks. It's access to the bike path. I think the deck is really a good idea because that gives the people to sit there and look at the view of the river. But it's getting people knowing walking down State Street that there are two paths to the river here. That's where I am, but I'll shut up. Well, I don't think you should feel like that. We're trying to work together to do this. We took a stab at it and I guess we stabbed wrong. We had a problem with only having a week to come back to you as we didn't have a time to keep myself. It's just to position landscaping so that it draws you to it rather than hides it. Yeah, where the landscaping is. It may not be representative, but that picture hides it. And again, the idea is to have a, if you're on State Street and you want to go in that direction, the idea is to have it draw you to it and not hide it again. I feel like that is very much a secondary way of getting down there. The idea is to bring people to down State Street to this tourist informational location. They'd see that sign. That would direct them to the sign that's only, you know, right within I shot down the Haney Lane. That's the only way bikes will be going for the most part. We just felt that was enough. And the idea was to create these little points rather than some arch that was not in keeping with the signage program you guys already had. Not looking for an arch, just plantings so that it draws you. Right. I mean, what we've tried to do is frame this teeny ramp with the amount of area that we have left to make it inviting. We have a sign and a seating opportunity right at the base of that ramp. The northeast corner of the garage, we have another sign, you know, again I shot, you know, visible from State Street. Frank, I don't necessarily believe in these signs. I don't feel like they're the solution of it. A large building creating in the landscape and the architecture, something that doesn't necessarily need the sign. It encourages and feels pleasant to sort of say, hey, I want to go down there. There's a reason to go down there beyond these little signs. Understood, but our problem. I've got the hotel landscaping cycling, which wasn't part of this. And it might be even something as simple as shifting the sumac that is right here, that is sort of in the line, which I think is what people are seeing in this. Oh, that one tree. You just shift that sign to something smaller so that it's not poking this and then you have your bench here. So if you want to pass that around so they can see what I'm looking at, because that would get rid of this tree or make it lower so it's more shrubbery. I'm not trying to, I just wanted to make sure that, I know that for this application, that's kind of a new piece of evidence. But again, it's a line of sight and an accent. This should be open in here. To be able to walk straight through. So if this is gone and instead you have something maybe bushy behind that seat and sign. Right. That's not really my job. I think it's good. We were just focused on this property and this application. I think that makes complete sense. And I know it's sort of outside, but in the DRB stage, we are changes to the hotel site to the garage where they impact, I'm trying to tell them also where they impact the hotel site plan. We can make those adjustments if that seems to register with you guys as something to throw in for a recommendation. Because you are allowed to make recommendations for landscaping under 24VSA 4413 even though this is a public project. Yeah, I think that's absolutely a great idea. The likelihood of being able to see through the building is depicted in this rendering is unlikely, correct? Right. That's an older generation of drawings. So now you've got the screening. We've got those scrims that we talked about at the last meeting. And again, the way the landscaping and the curbing enhances the entrance to the garage, it should be open in the same way to access the path between them. Because in this one, you don't even really see a sidewalk. But I think if you look at this, there's an amorphous sidewalk that will go all the way out. Yes. Because this is probably from the old... That's several generations old. Yeah, curb opening here. How do we resolve this though? Because clearly we presented the wrong thing. I mean, is this going to result in you asking us to come back yet again? Yeah. Okay. What we'll do is we'll make, again, we are advisory. We will make a recommendation to the Development Review Board that the landscaping around that access be changed to invite you to that. Okay. Then it'll be a curb opening so that there's a clear pathway through that landscaping to that pathway. Yeah. Because I'm sure the rest of the civil drawings and stuff revealed the handicapped curb cuts and crosswalks and stuff. If you look at the back of the package on C1.1, you can see where the crosswalk directs you over there and it lines up on that. And we're sort of talking about... You can see how the pathway is set up. So if you're amenable to including a condition in your recommendations that we revised the landscaping and bring it back to Meredith prior to pulling the building from there or something, I think that would be fine. And describe your change of the fencing that was one of the other items. So also included in your package, this third sheet in the package I handed out is a construction detail of the fencing. And you can see that this would be used for all of these types of purposes. So this would plug the openings on the garage. This would line the ramp and it would also go along the drop off by the railroad track. And this was selected because this is the design being used at Taylor Street. So we've got some correspondence with what's going on on the other side of the tracks, which is I believe what we've talked about. And James has included some pictures of these where they've used them in other places. That's the UVM. This is not a rendering of this project. I think that's what we're talking about. But it gives you an idea of what it looks like in place. I think the material for the ramp also could be a galvanized and it would be a nice competition to have the ramp and the railroad all of the same material. The ramp, meaning the decking. No, the ramp up to the boardwalk, which would be the decking. Yeah, we have those added to the renderings, which I can put up on the big screen, but we'd have to. So you can see what that looks like in the render. And yeah, this is also, you know, we talked about adding a view that showed with the trees in place. So you see those river birch coming up from below. And I think the next one should be, yeah, it's just a different view of the same thing. But with the trees in place. So I think the important thing for us was to just show this railing in situ. No, that railing color is black that you're showing. I showed it as black. Yeah, because we've been doing all the other metal work on the garages black. James has got it as galvanized in the detail, because that's what he was recommending. But we're open minded either way. It's possible to do it in black dimension. Yeah, it could be. The black shows the landscaping in a much nicer frame. I think so. It's a little less visually prominent when it's dark here. Yeah, against the landscaping. Whereas the galvanized stands out. You see the fence instead of the landscaping. But one tailor is galvanized. Galvanized, I believe, yeah. So it's just some, you know, you see a similarity in shapes and stuff. I don't necessarily have a problem with that except maybe, you know, if it'll be up to, it'll be up to the railroad whether or not they get a fence on both sides of the tracks. They reserve the right to deal with that themselves. We've indicated them. That would be kind of funny if one side was black and one side was galvanized on either side of the railroad tracks. That's what I was telling you, right? It's too bad because the black shows the landscaping in a much nicer fashion. They're galvanized things on Gossin's building. That was the driving force for the galvanized on that project. I actually like the galvanized. As it ages and models, it has a little bit more texture to it than something that's black. It's just sort of even, I feel, like the modeling. Do we know what this bridge is made out of? Is that galvanized? Is that concrete? The bike path bridge? Yes. I'm not sure. I think it's some kind of concrete, but I don't know. We had the civil engineering drawings, but we didn't have any engineering drawings for the bridge itself. I can make an argument either way if the galvanized would be black. And I'm flexible on that point. I think either way could look good. We obviously divided on the design team here a little bit. I have no affection to it either. I had the style. It was fine. Do you need to update your note, though, because you have one area said galvanized and one said stainless steel? Yeah, I think the stainless got VEDab. Yeah, it's definitely not going to happen here. Some other fence would definitely be galvanized. If you guys like it, that's fine with me. I personally prefer galvanized steel. I think black would probably fit in better with the rest of the garage. Yeah. It's a lot of fencing. Galvanized on the railing and the ramp and then black, where it's actually a part of the garage. Yeah, that's good work for me. Because I don't really want to highlight that. I just need to have it there. There's some places under the bridge and stuff where we want to keep people from getting in there as well. So there'll be security fencing underneath. Nobody's designed the pedestrian bridge here, right? We have no design on it because the other ones in town are the galvanized or the quartent steel. Oh, the bike path bridge? Yeah. Like I said, we had a civil engineering plan for it. It could very well be that it looks different than this. I just wanted to be clear on that. My understanding is that that got all permitted and done before I was even here. Yeah, we won't be constructing that. Yeah, the stand-tex plan is part of the One Tailor Street project that was approved last year. That's the way the bridge has been walked? I don't know. I don't know the specifics of stand-tex plans. Okay. We need Tom or Cori to come up and... Yeah, that's where it is. That's how big it is. That's how long it is. That's what we know. Yeah, part of it. But it's not a part of this application, so we don't have to deal with it, I don't think. No, we're just trying to integrate a little bit. Make sure that we're making decisions based on... So the ramp you'll need a handrail, obviously. Yeah, and it shows... Is it pipe? Galvanized as well, yeah. Yeah, so... Yeah, you can kind of see in the rendering if you zoom in the intermediate railings on the inside. Yeah, rectangular section. Yeah, right through there, yeah. Greg, have a mouse to teach you for you. Oh, thanks. That's all hooked up. Keep forgetting that. So we're proposing galvanized on the level and black on the pitched. Is that... I think galvanized in the landscape and only black on the building. Like where you have to have it on the base level to keep cars and people from going out at the opening of the base level where the water has to go in and out, or underneath the boardwalk to keep people from going under the boardwalk. That was something that the chief of police requested after the October 30th meeting that under the boardwalk needed to be fenced off. I think that works for me. I guess that way, the walkways won't disappear. You'll be able to see those more, but not pay attention to the other fencing that's not as people-friendly. I want to get back to... I guess what has become my pet peeve here. Okay, getting away down the... You have a generic wayfinding sign, right? I have some problems with the whole wayfinding plan, which is not appropriate to talk about. And I know that's being done by... But the thing I really want to be clear about is that there are signs and graphics that people don't have to wander around wondering where the river is. And I'm not sure that's there at this point. Some of the graphics for the wayfinding sign just frankly confused me, and I know Montpelier pretty well. And I don't know, I should have talked too much. I think it wants, as Harry has articulated, it just wants to be inviting regardless of whether there's signs there or not. But as you're walking down State Street, you want to be like, oh, hey, that looks like an interesting thing, and I want to feel like I should be able to walk through there and get to the river. And I don't need a little sign to tell me that. Really when you get right down to it off of State Street, that's really the only way unless you go down to Taylor. I mean, think about coming from Main Street up around the corner. There is no other access to the river other than Main Street, which will be where the bike path goes through. Come around and as you're going past Tulio's on State Street and you look down, it should be, you know, that's the first chance you have to get access to that back corner. So again, just whatever can be done to make that, again, inviting so that as you're walking by, you can look down and see that access. And again, between landscaping and something. My recollection is there are no panels for murals on the State Street side. Those are all up here. No, because the only part other than the entrance facing State Street is going to be sort of behind the Christchurch apartment building. And I'm not sure they necessarily want a 40-foot-tall Marilyn Monroe looking in their window or something. Right. I guess I was thinking more like if there was a, on that corner, the elevator corner in there, if there was spot for mural, that would feel inviting at that corner. Yeah. That might draw you to want to walk down that path a little bit more. Absolutely. And you know, the wires that are going across the North Branch on the other side of between State and Langdon, you know, something like that between the two buildings. We're open to making that an art thing, right? These are suggestions. Yeah. Okay. I mean, perhaps the treatment of the pedestrian, the way the bikes are going to come down through the Haney lot, could be painted with blue. I mean, a lot of things outside of ours. The way the ground is painted. Yeah. All of those things. With the way-finding scheme, there were certain, like, identified landmarks that they were pointing out was the bike path on there as one of the, like is this sign going to say bike path this way? Oh, yeah. Our sign would say river by Confluence Park, bike path, boardwalk. Okay. I don't think they'd even gotten to this. The way-finding they had gotten to the point yet of figuring out exactly what things they were going to point to yet. Very generic. I came to the presentation of the city council on the whole way-finding thing. It's really generic. It was very primary. Okay. I couldn't tell if I'd already decided which landmarks were going to be identified or not. Okay. My understanding is they hadn't, they had sort of a limited budget, but it's something where it, I'm sure that over time it could also be added to if need be, but it's also maybe a question for Bill or Sue if either of them know anything more. I don't know. Okay. Again, once they finalized that project, it would be nice to have something that's somewhat compatible. So at least if there's a sign up on State Street, somewhere that says bike path, or walking the bike path or whatever it says, as you head down there, that it's clear that there's the access. Yeah. We're committed to having those signs with an eye shot of each other. Anybody else have any other questions, comments, suggestions? I'm sure. At this point. And again, I want to be honest. I'm sitting here thinking about I'm in the photo because I find it very difficult to sort of make a right condition or vote if you don't know what you're going to get. And I haven't decided yet. We can open it up to the public, but only very briefly because we have a time limitation tonight. We'll open that up for the next 10, 10 minutes or so. And then anybody who wants to have any further comment, this is moving on to the Development Review Board anyway. So again, we're advisory. So anybody who has any additional comments can bring that up at the Development Review Board meeting. So if anybody wants to speak up, plan to do it briefly and raise your hand and come up to the mic. I think it would be good if people were restricted, restricted their comments to what design review has authority to review. If nobody has anything to offer, we can go ahead and move forward. We will run down. Just to reiterate, there were some recommendations from the last meeting. One was to have an option for the large artwork panels with a public contest for selection of actual artwork to be printed on the screens option one, provided that the artwork on this grim shall be muted black and gray tones in color, subtle preferably echoing neighborhood themes like the railroad bridge, et cetera. Cornices could be made out of GFRC or a polymer composite material, but were to be colored to resemble the gray granite used elsewhere on the building. Decking for the boardwalk shall preferably made from now. Originally, it was a locally sourced locust or e-pay or another tropical hardwood, but again, you would like to use some galvanized decking, is that... No, I think the wood would remain wood. This would just be for the railings. Oh, okay. And then use a smooth, not rough finish for granite portions of the garage. Rougher vases were more apt to catch and hold dirt, increasing maintenance costs. And then the last couple of recommendations were again, changing the landscaping around the access between the proposed hotel and the garage to invite access rather than hide the access. And again, it would have been curbing as you're showing in your most recent sketch. And then clarifying the fencing and railings at the rear of the garage would be galvanized metal or black colored metal material, black against the building, galvanized around the boardwalk area. And then options, bike racks could be provided on the boardwalk as well as inside the parking garage. And number two, applicant could provide hardware for hanging temporary banners over the large artwork sections on the river side of the garage. Artwork or eyeballs below the cornice work or some other type of hardware so that any hanging banners could be attached. Stipulate to all of that. Have you worded anything for the I don't want to call it wayfinding because it's more than a science issue providing some directional guidance for pedestrians to the river? You said you'd talked about it. Well, they have that in the most recent proposal that they gave us here. I got to say I'm not satisfied with that. More clear is exactly what it's going to be. I mean, we talked about removing trees and changing trees but we don't have a plan for it. Is there a way you can write something that we can send to the development review board saying this needs to be improved or people don't want to do that, that's fine. Can we do that Meredith? Yeah. You can write something more specific than what Stephen just said if you want. If everybody agrees that it's we talked about removing the sumac. The sumac is low, it's the ginkgo, it's the tree that's in the way. The ginkgo is on the other side. The ginkgo is between the church and the sumac is from this it looked like the sumac Sorry to get sort of buried in this. So the ginkgo was on the side on the church parking lot side. That's not blocking the access between the garage and the hotel. So we can make it as an amendment to the something that just says visual connectivity between State Street and that sidewalk. Down in Boston there's a lot of, especially along the Freedom Trail they buried a brick running down the middle of the sidewalk or whatever. So you've got a line to follow. You go from your waypoint and it says to the river and then you just, you almost have to be stupid to do this. Those are non-property. That's the issue. It would have to be coordinated through Montpelier alive, not by the applicants. But we're showing space to incorporate that on our property. I understand what Eric's looking for. We're trying to find a way to articulate it, which is that the wayfinding thing needs to be more than signage and moving the plants. And we're happy to stipulate to that. I just, I think we misread where you were going with that last time we saw you. And I'm sorry. I just think that that the directions and guiding people to the river needs to be more than signage. Maybe some paving treatment. Coming down through the Haney lot where the bike is. It doesn't, you know, I think there's a lot of different ways to do that. Yeah. You can have a blue sidewalk on the river. You can do things like that. But I just, I think that really needs to happen. You know, this, I think that you guys have done a great job of improving this over the times in the meeting. And, but I, you know, I've been in strange cities. Well, where's, where's the river? There's a map shows the river running through town. And you're in the hotel. Yeah, right. You know, if you walk out of the hotel, you see a sign to the river. Yeah. Graphics that indicate a river. We just want to incorporate it within the framework of greater mobiliars. Yeah. And it's, it's pathmaking, not placemaking. So, you know, I mean, linear elements would be fine, right? I need you guys to get on the Mopira live wave mining team. I need Erica. I, I thought about joining that. We're amenable to incorporating this into the design. I just, I don't want it to be the reason we stall out. Well, and this is, so we can make this recommendation to the DRB. This is kind of outside the scope of the 4413 limits on this. But it doesn't mean that they won't, especially if everybody's in agreement on it, that it won't get folded in. I just, I'm not, I'm not quite sure how, how that's going to go. But it doesn't mean you guys can't recommend it. It's not an unfriendly recommendation. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, and that's what I'm just trying to be clear. Mopira live and get them to listen as well. And it also becomes a maintenance of it issue too. If it's something that's, you know, embedded into the sidewalk, things like that. For sure, yeah. This isn't something that I think would be lovely though. Let's take our stencils on the side. Do they put the stencils by the source and the case? That's it, no water. That's fairly easy to renew every year. Something like that. I'm thinking places where I've been, where they've got these windy little paths between things, like in Boston Harbor, down around the Constitution or the city of London, you know, along the Thames, there's places where this fabric of the city pushes you off the river. You've got to go around the whole neighborhoods and I understand the goal. I'm sorry we offered you less than a complete response. I just said clear markings and signage compatible with the way-finding proposals by MyPillierLive to guide pedestrians and bicycles to the bike marking paths along the river need to be included. So again, that leaves it open but do you want to define it any further than that? No. Okay. Okay. Anything else anybody wants to add or bring up before we go through the criteria? This is the small set of criteria that are used to judge the projects again on the design review criteria. Number one, preservation or reconstruction of the appropriate historic style of the proposed projects on the historic district that involves an historic structure acceptable. Isn't that that just doesn't apply really? It's new construction. It's new construction and preservation or reconstruction so you want to say it does not apply then? I mean it's not reconstruction. It's new construction. It doesn't really make any difference in our final piece anyway but I'll just say it's not applicable then. Harmony of exterior design whether the properties in the district acceptable. Compatibility to propose exterior materials whether the properties in the district those are compatible. Compatibility of proposed landscaping acceptable. Prevention of the use of designs, buildings, color schemes or exterior materials acceptable. Location and appearance of all utilities acceptable. Recognition of respect for view quarters and significant vistas including gateway views of the city and state house acceptable. And with the seven recommendations and the two options that are listed here and would like to talk about that application. Any other changes, recommendations suggestions otherwise all in favor of the application with those changes raise your right hand. I was going to abstain but he was going to be more positive and courageous than he was. We'll let you down. Thank you everybody for your help and guidance through this. It's a much better project for having worked together with us. I appreciate it. I need somebody willing to put their signature on that. And give somebody a clear second. Signature of applicant. Thank you. Can I keep one set for my records so there's one fold into the DRC and I'll just use it at the next meeting. I'm sorry we were having trouble with our clear. No, it's okay. Yep. It looks like this is duplicative of the decades. It is. I wasn't sure, Greg. Yep. I hope we can make more copies. Sure. Well, we've got the tools. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Greg, can I have my pen? Thank you. Nope, I just, I leave it here. Okay. The decision is for 79 to 85 Berry Street applicant with belly pizza. Come up and have a seat at the chair if there's somebody who want to fold up the laptop. This is the scene we did. I'm here to represent Chasen. She had some extenuating circumstances and was unable to make it tonight. I was wondering if you could table this until next week or next meeting. I do do that if you like. Great. And she would be in touch with you via email just to confirm with you. Perfect. Okay. Yeah, she sent me here just to make sure that What was your name again? Greg Hesselton. Spell your last name. H-E-S-S-E-L-T-O-N. Okay. All right. Thanks so much. Thank you. Appreciate it. Next application is for 50 States Street. Salon Boutique. Go ahead. Describe your sign. One second. I'm sorry. Martha's here. Alternate. She probably stepped down so Martha can step in. Okay. I was not sure when she was going to officially enter the... Yep. Today is her official entry. So she can probably come up and everybody can sit here for this one. Okay. And for the public, I will let you introduce our new member. I do think the alternates should sit at the table and be part of the discussion. Yes. How are you? Somebody can vote. Hi, I'm Martha Smorsky. This is my first time. Thanks for having me. This is our new regular design review committee member. We are now full up. The five regular and two alternates. Welcome. And introduce yourself. I am Sharon White and I am the manager of Salon Boutique at 50 States Street in Montpelier. I'm also standing in for Andrea Mixick who could not be here this evening. And I'm happy to begin. I do because I didn't have any questions. Thank you. Your copy machine is so perverse that I'd say. We have supposedly somebody's coming to do some work on it. Do you want to tell us? Summarize the project. Absolutely. At the end of July we moved from Forty State Street where we had been 17 years back to 50 State Street which was Vermont Trading Company space and we've been occupying that space very happily since the end of July and would need to have a sign above the space outside as it was for Vermont Trading Company and the diagram and the outlines of the application. We would like to stay with our branding which is the oval with the eye for Salam the Boutique and feel that the current diagram and depiction really speaks to our branding and is a nice fit for the space. Do you know how accurately this is represented? Is this going to break this? It is not going to break it. It's actually a unfortunately just a little bit of a I don't know if I would say a miscue or it just wasn't aligned properly. The pictures. I assume it's going to go with it. Absolutely. And is it a brushed aluminum? It is a brushed aluminum. Which is a bit different than what we have done in the past. However, with the expansion and the growth of 17 years bringing us forward in a wonderful space and a more current contemporary look and if you've been to the new location you would know by coming in that the sign outside actually matches what we believe the interior message to be. So it's very contemporary. It seems to fit the town dynamic and view. We're pretty pleased with ourselves. Does the lettering painting work? Without being the design person that's kind of the difficult question to answer except that it's brushed aluminum and then etched and then actually outlined with a black a thin black line around the outside of the sign. So the aluminum is etched and then it's painted. Absolutely. Those are indications of where it will be placed how it will be placed. Anchored, that's a good word. Yes, or the appropriate word. Thank you. You said there would be a thin stripe around the perimeter. Absolutely. It wasn't showing on the diagrams. We didn't get a revised diagram to show that but actually it makes the sign stand out. Would that be black or the color of the? It would be black. Enter that here just to clarify it. Absolutely. We are. In the email here it says something about the brushed aluminum panel needs to project slightly above the soft at lower trail. That's where we were just discussing with this picture here. It does. It fits within that scheme. Any other questions, comments? Seventeen years at the old location with that very old wooden sign and now we're looking to establish at least that plus more in a more contemporary fashion. Do you have a copy of the criteria for a little finish? I don't usually bring extras. Sorry. Preservation and reconstruction of an appropriate historic style. In the historic district I would say that's acceptable. Harmony of exterior design with other properties in the district is acceptable. Compatibility of proposed exterior materials with other properties in the district is acceptable since your sign has been in the district for a while. Compatibility of proposed landscaping with the district is not applicable. Prevention of use of incompatible designs, buildings, color schemes, that's acceptable. Are you doing any lighting? Not additionally. A location and appearance of all utilities would be not applicable. Recognition of and respect for corridors. I would say that's not applicable. Conformance with cityscape placement and design recommendations is acceptable. A lot of skewer compatibility with subject property and adjacent properties is acceptable. A lot of skewer architectural details is acceptable. Illumination and terminally lit signs are prohibited. This is acceptable. Penance and banners are prohibited except as public announcement that's acceptable but not applicable. Not applicable? Not applicable. I think the illumination is whether it's existing. Individual letters of fixed or painted are very encouraged. This is acceptable. These things don't exactly line up. Yeah, we've got to do a major sheet provision. Penance and banners are not prohibited. That's not applicable. I should sign it probably. Just get a vote on it. All in favor? Any opposed? Yes. Will I get that? All in favor? Yes,� They need to have a single sign. Just write it on the left of this voting. Mr. Thank you and coming , come to see us again. Yes, we are in touch. Absolutely. Have a wonderful evening . The next application is for 28th School Street. Applicant Maria Stoffer, pronounce your name. Stoffer. Stoffer, okay. Hi. Hi. And describe your application. We are applying to enlarge our sign so it's the same size as the other businesses in the directory and add a sign to our front door. Your Mindy's Brick, right? Yes. Yeah. As we go through the design review rig, I think this is one of the things you ought to be able to do. Yep. Oh, wow. I think it would be best to change the read a little better to have this sign on an R here. Signs on an R, actually black, other than, or something other than this one. The gold. Because even just looking at this, it fades out. I'm saying that down here, I don't know if your designer can look into that, but it's just a recommendation. It seems like it really drops out and it's competing against the white. The only thing that's not depicted is the black frame that will go around it so that they can hang the sign. So it's currently black on the green sign that's the original, and it will be black on that. Is it why we couldn't put that to the left of the door? We definitely can. The space might not be the same size. There are what might be columns built into the architecture on the front of the building that might be half that size, but it could certainly run in a different fashion. I don't know if you can see that in the picture. But yes, absolutely. Everybody knows where Maggie's is anyway. That's why we're here. The interesting thing is that probably weekly someone is lured in by the smell that they don't actually know we're there because the sign, the current sign blends in as a directory for a business that might not be a retail food service. And it doesn't have any of the pieces of the logo that appears on the bread label. So people really don't know we're there. And we've been there for 38 years. Only? Every school kid at Union School knows you're there for sure. They do. What is the sign under the 28? Oh, it's the business hours. Oh, okay. Yep. Yep. We are the only business that you find when you enter the front door. Would you have enough room if you were this, the layout here, those specials that you could take today? I would just stack it above this and have it a more of a rectangle that might fit directly underneath your hours. Absolutely. Is that a possibility? Yeah, for sure. And then it wouldn't be on the doorway. So you suggest to remove the one that's there? No, leave the one that's there. And instead of putting this on the door, I think it would be more compatible to take the, for instance, today's specials just to take that portion of it, a proportion of the sign that says today's specials and stack that directly above your proposed sign and then mount that directly underneath the store hours. So everything is on a column. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, it's just the one that's there is store hours, you said, right? It is. So do you, do you want to do that? Is there duplicating? This one says Monday to Friday, Friday to Friday. Right. So actually you could take, if there's no other information other than hours on that one, you could take that one down and move this over and have it rectangular. Yeah. I don't think so. I think that people, the interesting thing is when we put something on the door, when we were noticing that people didn't know where we were, the minute they could see the front door with some type of notification from the street, they could find us. And the yellow piece that's off on the right hand side with our store hours is small. So you couldn't read it from the sidewalk. So, I think whether it was right on the door, if it was on the side, wouldn't matter, as long as it was large enough for someone to see. I think it would be more noticeable with the red above it. Oh yeah. I think that's certainly, I mean, from at any distance that red attracts your attention. And then if you, with this, this red thing, they're signed below that. Again, what you're going to see is contrast. So if you've got a lighter color background and this sort of the yellowish off white color that you have here with a black lettering on it. I think that, I think the contrast will be more noticeable because I'm looking at this sign and it's hard to tell what it says, although it's much more clear with the one that's on the door, even as small as it is there. For sure. Assuming you're trying to get more foot traffic, it's a totally different idea. Completely ignore it. But it does seem to me like you would be pretty awesome to have just like bread sitting out there in a, almost as like a, I'm thinking more like the Dog River Farm, sort of like honor system, like a couple of loaves of bread that you would pay, you know, but are just sort of like, oh, that's what's right there. That's is the sign, is some actual like loaves of bread on a nice little table. It weren't for the squirrels. Good point. No, I don't mean, I actually mean like loaves wrapped up in plastic as like. Oh yeah, they are squirrels. They love the children and they live in the bushes outside waiting for the crust. So I think it's a fabulous idea, but. Yep. You've already got a marker. We can't do it. There we go. I'm totally amazed at the amount of bread you can turn out in that space. So now on today's specials, do you have what you just stick something on there? We do, yes, little little placards that we can change in and out. Oh, okay. Yeah. So again, if you do the sign vertically, you could put that either above or below the other sign. Yep. Whichever you think is more readable, you could actually almost make two signs to rectangular signs vertically and then mount them one above or below the other, whichever one would make more sense. Yeah. We'll just throw this out. Put a sign here. Oh, across the top. What? Putting it in like eye holes up there? Oh, oh, oh. Right here across the stretch thing. Now you could put your problems on. Right. I've never asked John about that. At least on the front of his building. Again, one of the criteria was it have to be slim enough so you don't want to hide any of the architectural details. That's a really special entryway there. Nobody else used the entry, do they? The people that live in the building. There's three tenants upstairs. Mm-hmm. I think with the colors, with the red and the colors on your proposed sign, I think that on that column on the right or where the hours are now, I think that would, I think that would certainly be noticeable. And protected from the weather. Yeah. Yes. Especially when you have detachable parts to it. Yeah. It would certainly be a lot easier rather than having them to get on the ladder to post your specials. And swinging in the wind. We'll give your sister that job. Another, I'm going to throw this one out. Okay, now go ahead. You could put Maggie's bread right along this the side stack. Gooding down the column. Which could be pretty cool. That's a neat idea too. Is it where? You could stack Maggie's bread right here. And bigger ladders. Certainly would advertise help. I don't have any problem with it being on the door. I see what you mean about it really drawing people to that door. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I don't even know where you're at. Yeah. If we're, I would have to, the other thing is if we're talking about down this side, it's a different calculation. Yeah. I don't know, I don't know. I don't have it on me right now. If you start drawing things out. If you start throwing things way out, I'm going to go back and do another sign on the building calculation to make sure we can actually do that. But you can make the recommendation and we can do the calculations. Yeah. Now the only thing with a sign on the door, I know it swings out right at the door. Yes. Yeah. I mean, it still might get hammered by the kids, saying that it's right at the door and right at their level. Yeah. We are completely comfortable having it in either place. And I think it's very easy to see on the side. Yeah. What would be your preference? I think that the side would work fine if that's what the agreement is. I don't think we'd even considered another option. So that is just fine. Who's actually voting on this one? What I did was I just said applicant has the option for rectangular sign to be located on the vertical casings on the either side of the entry door using the same design components and colors currently proposed. Does that say what you like? We talked about the contrast as well, the pinstripe contrast. Of the larger director's sign. So again, the recommendation is for a darker pinstripe. And then how would you want to let her adjust her higher contrast as an option against the way I just said applicant has the option to use darker colored pinstripe lettering and logo on the larger ground sign in the same color for improved readability. Does that say would you any other questions, comments, suggestions? I'll read through the criteria then. Number one, preservation of reconstruction of the appropriate historic style of those projects is in the historic district involves an historic structure, acceptable harmony of exterior design with other properties, acceptable compatibility, proposed exterior materials, acceptable compatibility of proposed landscaping on proposed in this application. Prevention of the use of incompatible designs, buildings, color schemes or exterior materials, acceptable location and appearance of all utilities, no change and there's no lighting on the sign. Recognition of and respect for view quarters not applicable at this location. Conformance with cityscape placement and design recommendations acceptable. Compatibility with subject property and adjacent properties acceptable. Shall not obscure significant architectural details acceptable. Consistency in uniformity of multiple signs not applicable here. Illumination internally lit not applicable. Penits and banners not applicable. Individual letters affixed, painted or engraved directly into the building or structure are encouraged, acceptable. All in favor of the application is proposed with the options. This is too many people. Somebody has to sign up. I'll have to sit down. I'll just say five and over. I'm not noting who's, unless you need to. The minutes note. Then you pick somebody whose vote doesn't count. Aw. I mean, it would be Ben because he's the alternate. It's new to me, but that's fine. Okay. If you want to sit in, I'll have to. I'll just sign this one right there about my name. And then the next development review board meeting would be... Do you need to come to development review? Okay. This is administrative approval. Good. Thank you. Keep the good smells coming. Yes. These are probably more or less maintenance. Okay. 22 Main Street. For Melton and John Beards building. Describe your application. May Anseld, like we're design architects, Tony Beard, owner and John. Hi. This is in relation to the rear fire escape on the building that has been in its deteriorating condition. And we had looked at options of replacement. There was an engineering report that indicated it really needed to be replaced. The cost to do that was really prohibitively expensive. We looked at several options including a spiral, which was simpler and smaller. We looked at the life safety requirements that Mr. Teddy was wanting there. It was pointed out by Mr. Lumber, Chris Lumber that because of the sprinkling that had occurred recently here and with the other exiting within the building that they do not need this. It could literally come off. So that's really what we were proposing to do, is to take it off. So you've got an image of what it is. And then we would be returning these two locations where the doors were. Two windows. They'd be a Marvin cloud window in which we were matching existing color of the other windows. And then doing a brick infill beneath the window. To infill. To infill the inset. Yes, that's what we were looking at. There are sort of theories of which to do there. Whether you tooth it in, do you do it inset? I'm assuming the doors are infill. Seems that way. Yeah, there are certainly historic. There are residents on the building where some have been infilled straight line and some have been toothed in. I just think the inset looks a bit better because you're never going to match the brick exactly anyway. And it tells the story. In this case, the doors, I wouldn't think would have to be a brick. Well, what we thought of that, whether it should just be a panel. I think it could be either. I don't know if you guys have any preference. Certainly be cheaper. And then this is just to show how we're matching the color of the clad and the existing window trim. Is it a double home? Double home. Yep, we'll basically be doing double home as the others are. It will also be egress capable although it doesn't need to be. So that's true. Now would they be raised to the same level as the other windows or would they be constructed below the upper panel? We'll take it to the same level so that the head will match. Okay. Basically head and base will match. We're trying to match that one. That'll last page of the very last page. Yes. There are granite seals beneath the others but again with this being the former door where we worked. So that's kind of in a nutshell where it is. That's why I think setting it back would be. Yeah. It would still barely define it as an X door. I have an idea about wood. It might be simpler and cleaner in a way. Yeah. That would be fine. Weather wise to change. Well we might do as on my next project because of rod issues we're using some ball panels so that there isn't ever a mix that's painted. If we were to go to a route of that nature I would suggest that so that it's maintenance free. Composite. So you want to get the option to use the lower panel here. Or it can fill or a composite panel. Sure. Yeah. Okay. Great. There's probably a reason for the chance of an open door. Could be. French block next door. Eric would be doing the same thing where it's set back. Yeah. The wood you don't have to worry about matching color. Yeah. Well it'll probably stand out less in a way. Yeah. Any other questions, comments, suggestions? So the panel will be flat panel? What we'll do a flat one. It'll be flat. I would think because of the size we'd flatten it probably would be trimmed around. Okay. And that would be silk? Would be the exterior silk? It would be a lot of silk. Would be, I would think would silk basically. I don't think we're going to repeat the granite. Don't these units come with a... Well there's a certain portion of silk that comes clad with it. Right. Actually I think you can maybe get some clad material to cover the silk. So that would totally match. We wouldn't be the same depth as the granites. Right. Yeah. They would get out of the clad silk. I assume there's nothing proposed. Nothing changing any of that at this point. All the previous anchor points, how are you dealing with that? They would be filled, repaired. Some would have been in mortar, some in brick problem. So again the only thing we added was the end fill below the two new windows which are replacing the existing door openings. Maybe brick or composite material. Specificity other than that. I think you could mention clad rot silk, if you like. That'd be fine. So we'll go through the criteria. Number one, preservation or reconstruction of the appropriate historic style of the proposed projects in the historic district. Acceptable. Harmony of exterior design of other properties in the district. Acceptable. Compatibility of proposed exterior materials. Acceptable. Sorry. Compatibility of proposed landscaping, not proposed. Prevention of the use of mathematical designs, buildings, color schemes or exterior materials. Acceptable. Location and appearance of all utilities. No change in utilities or lighting of any kind. Not applicable. Recognition of and respect their view quarters in the back of the building. I would say that's not applicable. All in favor of the application with those options. Raise your hand. Steve where it says relocate cable box entry. That's not anything to do with utilities. Is that correct? On the last page there's an indication where they're going to relocate the cable box entry. It's right now you see it in the photograph it's above and we're going to put it below. Okay. Which actually will show less in the panel properly than in the photograph. Okay. It's really, I could tell that a probability of some of it's, it exists. Okay. So we're not adding anything. You can see it's here who it is now. Oh I see, yeah. I see. So then it goes down. Yeah. And one of you want to sign that? There's a pen right here. Yep, with that one. For all that. Okay. Thanks. Thank you very much. Thanks to me. So I'm going to stay for the next one. Okay. We'll be quick. So capital copies. Capital copies. Basically this is also made in, below this siding down below is basically rotting. And so we're looking to replace it actually. The project is going to do that. And what we're going to use again is a blow product. But this is called a nickel gap. Basically it'll emulate the shrinkage cracks that are in the material there. So it'll look very much like that now. And it's totally inert material. And if you've ever seen it, we've soaked it for months in water and it doesn't rot. We've often used it in the division that's allowed down low where things typically deteriorate. And it just doesn't do it. That's a different profile. It'll be again that nickel lap, which is kind of a shift lap with this in the crack. What is the material? It's a fly ash basically. Material. That's uncertain. And a bonding agent of some sort. The color, the owner, we looked at having to be uniform with the rest of the building and the colors and the black windows and such, but they wanted to keep this sort of identity of themselves and with their sign above. So it'll be matching. Matching what's there. So again, it's just that lower. It's the lower part. The rest will be painted, but it's only the lower part that gets replaced. Yes. It's painted the same color. Yes. Right so. Unfaded. Yeah, I think what we'll do, I haven't found close, but we'll take around an unfaded piece and get it scanned. There's actually a Sherwin-Williams color that's pretty darn close to that called Pancake Syrup. Pancake Syrup. Syrup, that fell around my pancake. Well, it shows up pretty nice and it's sort of a reddish-dark, reddish-brown color. Although this one here is passion ardente. Okay, run down through the criterion. Preservation of reconstruction of the appropriate historic style acceptable. Harmony of exterior design acceptable. Compatibility of the exterior materials acceptable. Adaptability to proposed landscaping not proposed. Prevention of the use of incompatible designs. Colors and color schemes are exterior materials acceptable. No change in utilities. Recognition of and respect for view quarters and significant vistas including a review of the city and state house acceptable. All in favor, raise your hand. Marin, if I would say looking at this next application, it's similar than I feel like you would be able to get through it. You ready to get through it? Okay. Sure. Quickie. Thank you. Okay, thank you. Okay, thank you. Thank you. Finally, the next application, 58th State Street, Overlake Park, roof replacement. I'm Jesse Jacobs. I'm representing Overlake Park. We have a new tenant that's moving into the 58th State Street garage, which after so many years, we're really excited about. We have found that the roof that is there currently, which is asphalt shingles, needs to be replaced. We are proposing to replace it with something that is more historically relevant, that will last longer and generally, in my opinion, looks a lot better. And I'm here for your permission to do that. The pitch looks a little shallow for shingles as well, perhaps. I'm fine with it. A particular color? It's charcoal gray, and I think you guys should have the... I had left the material and the chip with the application. Maybe you don't have it. That's okay. We don't need it. It's a little bit lighter than this laptop. No, that's fine. So you're having a mix of a guard and a pad? We're going to do, right? Well, so we'll have the guard along the edge, and then four feet above that, we'll have the floor to lease, just to kind of keep snow up there. I'm not sure if they've investigated some of the pad-style guards that you're showing. Look at, there's some websites that recommend the stagger and spacing on those, depending on the pitch of the roof. It makes a big difference as far as how it controls the movement of the snow. Okay. The fellow who is installing this has a lot of experience, so I think that he probably will know what to do. Okay. Good. Questions, comments? Okay. Evaluation number one. Preservation of reconstruction of the appropriate historic style. Acceptable. Harmony of exterior design. Acceptable. Impatibility of proposed exterior materials with other properties in the district. Acceptable. No landscaping proposed. Prevention of the use of incompatible design buildings. Color schemes or exterior materials. Acceptable. Location and appearance of all utilities. No change in lighting or any other utilities. Recognition of and respect for view quarters and significant vistas, including a review of the city and state house. Acceptable. All in favor of the application. Raise your hands. Thank you all for squeezing me on to the agenda. I know it was a full one. That's okay. We signed that one. You're all set. Cable in favor of the amendments and adjournment. Go here a second. All in favor of the amendments and adjournment. Raise your hands. Meeting is adjourned.