 All right. Welcome to the women of OpenStack working lunch instead of working breakfast. Who likes that? Yay. Me too. Me too. So I'm so honored to be hosting our lunch today along with we have some great speakers and we'd love for you guys to also maybe turn around after the discussion is over and maybe talk in smaller groups about what you've heard from our panelists today. I'd like to introduce myself. My name is Jessica Marillo and I work at IBM and we're very pleased to be hosting this session. I did want to share with you guys to start our women of OpenStack mission statement that we wrote as a group in June of 2016. So I'll kind of hit some of the high points and then you can read this as also out on our women of OpenStack wiki. We strive to lower the barrier of entry to OpenStack in its learning and its use. We are looking to increase the overall diversity of the OpenStack community. We provide professional and social networking for women and their advocates with common interests in OpenStack and open source technologies. We're looking to achieve these goals through leading and sponsoring educational sessions and networking events that promote inclusion in the OpenStack community. So really what we're focused on is bringing groups together and supporting ourselves as well as the OpenStack community. So we did a demographic survey at the end of 2016 leading up to the Barcelona Summit and this I have to say is consistently the key focus areas since we started having this working session back in the 2014 timeframe at the Paris Summit. It's for us we want to help each other build our networks. We want to educate and provide technical workshops. We want to help women advance into leadership positions not only within their company but within the community and we do that with a focus on mentoring and coaching. So we always like to look back on what we've accomplished over the last six months. So I'm really proud of our mentor program. I think that's one of the things that we've done well. We have speed mentoring events that was held yesterday. Thank you to Intel for sponsoring that. It would have to be one of the better the best session that I've been to. We've been doing it since Austin. There was the quality of conversations, the interactions we had. I got to participate as a mentee which I thought was awesome because I got to know my table mates really well as the mentors kind of cycled through. So I highly encourage if you have an opportunity to participate in either the long-term mentoring or the speed mentoring program do so. We've also we've continued to sponsor panel discussions. We've had them in Boston, Barcelona, Austin, Tokyo and Vancouver. And we some of the engagement activities in addition to speed mentoring that I just talked about and this working session. We sponsor a Git and Jarrett lunch and learn. That will be tomorrow at 12.40 and there'll be more information. If you want to see in the schedule, if you want to look for any women of open stack activities or that feature prominent women of open stack, just search for women of open stack in the online application and they'll bring up those activities. So it's great that we come together at the summit but we also strive to have regular communications between the summits. So one of the things that we put together in Barcelona was an editorial calendar. So we meet two times a month. It's on the odd Mondays at 2000 UTC and in one of those meetings we have a featured speaker. So thanks to Beth Cohen we have started we've been able to record those speaking sessions and we will continue that for the second half of the year and make those available through our Etherpad or the women of open stack wiki. And you can always join our women of open stack distribution list to get regular updates as well and there is a LinkedIn group that you can join. So what we have planned for you today, I'm very excited. So we have Malini and Egla who will be joining me here for a panel discussion and I really would love, oh yeah, come on up ladies, come on up. And I would love for you guys to think of some tough questions to ask them. We have it set up with the microphones on the side. Thank you. So I introduce myself. The way I'd like for you all to introduce yourself. I've been working with open source since the late 90s. One of the coolest assignments I've had at IBM is working with our Linux technology center. It was my first opportunity to work with an open community and it was something that has really had a profound impact on the way I work, the way I lead and the way I interact with people. So if you could Malini, if you could introduce yourself and talk a little bit about what you do with the open community, that would be great. Hi everyone. I'm Malini Bandaru, a principal engineer at Intel and unlike you, I've been with open source only for about five and a half years and it's all started for me with OpenStack. Very cool. Egla? I'm Agnes Ziggler. I work at Rack Space. I'm a principal architect there. I am also on OpenStack board of directors. I have been involved in OpenStack communities since 2012 and now most of my work revolves around open source projects. I spend a lot of time working on the OpenStack interop working group and Catherine from IBM is also involved in it. We could definitely use more women on that group. If you want to learn more about it, let me know. Yes, great. So my current job at IBM is working on strategy. And when I entered the engineering profession, I knew that you have to be lifelong learners, right? Things are always going to change. So I'd like to hear from you Malini first from working at Intel. What are some of the product innovations do you see coming in the next five to 10 years? First and foremost, being a hardware company. We're always looking at technology from that then. Moore's Law is alive. Things are shrinking, packing in more. But that packing in more is happening in every phase, in networking, in compute, in storage. And one of the latest things in storage is something called 3D cross point. It's non-volatile memory, very fast and very dense. So that can totally change how computing happens. Because earlier on, you had your 3.5 gigahertz CPU frequency and your HDD was way, way slower. So you had levels of cache. Used to hide that latency of reaching memory. And all that will get really, really changed now with 3D cross point. We're just at the beginning. The media is getting ready, but all the controllers have to still get in place. So you'll find a layer of caching under your DRAM with this 3D cross point. You might find moving your compute towards memory, maybe having non-volatile file systems, sitting in your DRAM type of stuff. So it's just going to revolutionize things. So you talked a little bit about 3D cross point. What about like internet of things and kind of the explosion of data? What impacts do you see that happening? I see lots of edge clouds happening. Because finally, you know, all this data has to reach you and me and everyone. And so it does make sense to have like content distribution networks closer to the point of consumption with, you know, internet of things. You're not going to like bubble up every little temperature sensor reading. You still might want to aggregate it, determine if it's going, you know, outside of some bounds. Is there some alarm situation? Things like that. So there will be a lot of edge clouds out there, which will do a lot of the processing close to you. So there's reduced latency and then it bubbles up to the cloud. So, Egla, so your day job is working at Rackspace in addition to you being a Foundation board member. So thank you very much for your leadership there. So what are some of the key technology trends do you find your clients are asking for? I think we're heading towards multi-cloud world. And I think the trend has started a while ago, but we see more and more of that. If you're not looking at different multi-clouds or hybrid clouds, you will be very soon. And our customers now, they're not only interested just in open stack or just in VMware. We find that they're running their workloads on open stack VMware. Open stack VMware, AWS. I think it's amazing that now you can combine all of them and the technology started evolving. I think last time at Platform 9 company, they were on the keynote stage demoing their open stack on AWS. And I think that's amazing. And even today during keynote, they didn't talk about it, but their open stack was running on AWS. So I think that's where we're headed. Yeah. I mean, some of the things that I get to work with in addition to systems like Malony is emerging technology trends like blockchain and artificial intelligence and machine learning. And the amount of reading that I have to do on a daily basis, it's constant, right? I mean, we're all kind of flipping through our phones where we have different feeds that come in. So talk a little bit about how you, we'll start with you, Agla. How do you stay in tune with the latest technology? And how do you know what to act upon? I think it's really hard to stay on top of everything and know everything. I think I try to focus on things that are related to my job and see how I can apply. Those are the things I learn. But I say on top, like I follow some people on Twitter that always are talking about new technology. So when they say, oh, cool, check out this cockroach DB or something like that, you're like, oh, let me see what that is. So at least you know what it is. And you hear the name. And next time you hear, you're like, I heard this, I know what it is. And okay, it's just another database, but it has these advantages. So that's what I try to do because otherwise it's just so much information. And if you go and learn something today, three months from now, that technology will have changed and may have even become irrelevant. So you have to be picky in what you spend your time on. Yeah, I mean, there's different tools you can use. You mentioned Twitter. I think it's great. I love looking at different Twitter feeds. Seeking Alpha is another website that I've been using. It's also they have a mobile app to get information as well. But Malini, how do you stay? How do you kind of call through everything to find those those nuggets that you really need to understand and use? I don't think I'm doing a good job. It's just like a flood out there. And I like a name like cockroach TV because it kind of sticks in your head. Then there's like so many that are so similar and I like litter becomes jitter becomes something else, something else. But one of the things that is sticking in my head right now is the AI part. And sometimes, like you can't decide what to work on or how much and what to read up. Sometimes it also helps when you're shifting your job because then you can shift your focus. So just recently, I joined the connected car team at Intel. So you need cloud there. But you also need big data. You need, you know, real time analysis and and real time messaging and transmitting. So suddenly now in this domain in my world, now I was like, okay, there's Kafka, there's Hadoop, there's part, there's X, there's Y, there's Z. So it does help to focus when you have a different job. You can look from a different viewpoint. I think I agree with both what you said. There's so much, maybe making it, making one of these new technologies a part of your job, maybe not switching jobs, but incorporating it into your day to day work, I think is something that makes it relevant. It makes you, you know, create this. You have to learn deeper. You have to dive deeper. So we talked a little bit earlier. I talked about the importance of mentorship and mentors and mentees to the OpenStack, the women of OpenStack. So talk a little bit about your mentors. Melanie will start with you. Do you have a mentor or a network of mentors? How does that work for you? Definitely. Mentors can come in any shape, size, form, gender, age. So take anybody and everybody who, you know, sometimes you're just down, or sometimes you don't know where that path is and something they say will resonate with you. And at that point, they've moved from maybe friend to mentor and it could even be your child at that point. And I've been very fortunate. And starting at Intel, it's like a very male dominated community and lots of men engineers. So it's hard to even get your voice heard. And I think what helped me stay there beyond my first year, I was like, you know, give them one year, let's see how it goes type of stuff, was that they had women at Intel forum and a group and got people to come and say, oh, there's another one, another one. And there were little strategies and tips that they shared, you know, like, if there's a woman running a meeting and she hears you kind of like clear your throat says, oh, Malini, do you have something to say and like makes room for you to enter. So this is kind of a way we can help each other. And that's something we've been carrying forward, sharing any tip, introducing people and that line between mentor and sponsors can be a big divide. So try and bridge it sometimes for mentors, become a sponsor to say, you know, I know Jessica's work, she's so great and she does this and pull her in type of stuff. And so try and morph there. No, and you brought up a concept of an advocate or a sponsor, which is a little bit different than a mentor to me. Mentors to me are people who give me advice. Sponsors are people who help me get to the next thing. So, you know, I've had, I've had mentors who were sponsors and sponsors who weren't mentors, but it just kind of happened that way. So so I'll talk a little bit about advocates or sponsors you've had in your career and how they've helped you. I think I was very fortunate that I had some very good advocates and sponsors at my career in Rackspace. I didn't have them to begin with, but then once I met them and connected and they recognized me for my work and they're very quick to promote me and push me towards doing more things. And they were saying, yes, you should go do this. Yes, I want you to follow up on this. So that's been definitely very helpful. I think sometimes we're like, well, how do I find one of these? And it could, as Malini mentioned, it could be your mentor, or it could be just someone that you start working with. And I try to be very conscious of that now myself when I work with other people. And I try to encourage them just the way I was encouraged. I want everyone else to have the same opportunities that I did. Oh, yeah, giving back. So, yes. And at Rackspace, we also have something called mentor circles that started as mentoring for women, but has grown into company-wide where it's now open to both men and women. And mentor circles meet once a month in a small group with a leader from a company and they discuss different topics. And I think that has really helped me when I went through the initial mentor circles program. And I'm very happy to see that we continue having them. That's cool. It comes full circle. So, yeah, you have to be a mentor and a mentee all the time. And I think my current mentors, they probably don't know that they're my mentors. I just go to them and I ask questions like, hey, how would you do this? Or what would you do in this situation? Yeah, I completely agree with that. I think the difficult thing for any mentor-mentee relationship is continuing it, making it, sometimes it's spontaneous, but then you have to keep that spark going. And I'm just speaking from personal experience. They kind of die if you don't have something that sustains it. So, I think asking questions and getting on people's calendar and having lunch with them, I think it's something that's really a very good strategy. So, be creative. If the weather's nice, go for a walk with your mentor or mentee. Anything works. Yeah, that's a good idea. Very good idea. So, we often talk about pipeline for women or young girls into technology fields. We've all seen the research, less than 20% of our engineering schools have female candidates. We've all seen it as we've gone through our schooling as well, being one of two girls in your engineering class, your programming class. But there is also, you'll notice, once we started our career, attrition of women out of this field. And so, I'd like to talk a little bit about what we do to support women who are in the profession today and how to keep them. I mean, you talked a little bit about your mentor circles. You talked about what's happening into all the women's group. Are there other things that you personally do to encourage and inspire other technologists at your companies or in the community? So, personally, I try to have a group of women that I stay in touch with at Rackspace. And if I, whether I meet them during some event within the company or someone introduces me to them, I try to keep touch with them and to see what's going on. And like, even if they're not looking for a mentor, I give them advice. I say, hey, you have to, you need to ask for a promotion. You need to be doing this. You need to speak up. Don't assume that just because you are doing a wonderful stellar job that you will get a promotion. Don't, don't make any assumptions that other people will notice. It's the squeaky wheel that will get promoted, unfortunately. If you have a very, very thoughtful manager, you don't have to, but unfortunately, we can't count on our managers at all times. Yeah. I like to think it's not what I know, but it's who knows what I know. And what am I doing to make people know what I know? And it's constant. You know, it's, it's, it's, you have to kind of create a system of doing that. So it's great that you, like you talked a little bit about the squeaky wheel. I think everyone can, can think about this like, okay, when do I need to pipe up? When do people need to know about me? So what about you, Malini? So mine's a little more tactical. I mean, I do the mentoring. I encourage, as you got to ask for your promotion, but you know, attrition can happen very easily when, you know, we have children and many of our societies are like the mother does the most, okay? She puts them to sleep. She makes them the breakfast and coming from India, China, that's very common. And I'm sure in the US too. So what I found that does help me retain women and this is me as being a manager and a leader is like saying, you know, go ahead and work a day or two from home if that's going to help you juggle things. And, you know, it's like an hour or two of commute you shave off. That's time that you can rest or be with your child or have more time to study and catch up. So I've offered flexible hours, work from home a couple of times. And then oftentimes when we have our meetings, because we're cross geo like China and Mexico and all that, I can hear that little squeaky voice in the background, mommy, when you're coming, when you're done, I just feel for them because long ago was me there, right? And I could have just dropped out of this profession because it's so demanding in us. It's not ending when the daycare ends. So I try to have fewer meetings at that time. I try and say, you know, is this the day your husband can be at home? And then that's the day when you present as opposed to somebody else presenting. So I try and kind of handle these kind of tactical issues. And then you need another monitor. Did you lose your phone? And it's not really, you went on a business trip for me and let's, you know, things like that. And then make them know that we care about them, count on them and, and their success and our success is joined. And I appreciate you doing that because as a new mom, all of that rings true for me. My manager's like, yeah, work from home as much as you need to, if that helps you, shave time, not too much travel or no travel or not too much travel since you have a new baby. So that's all makes a huge impact. If I did not have supportive management, I don't know that I would have been able to stay and do what I do. Because this just melt down there. They can't take this anymore. Well, what you say, it's not just a mother's worry either. I think that's also a worry increasingly for more new fathers who want less travel. They want to be with their family. They want to support their new children and their family. So I think that's just a good overall practice as well. But I love that you kind of you understand, you can take that from your kind of your understanding and you kind of share that with them. That's awesome. So that's where diversity helps, right? Because we're thinking from that angle. Yes. Yes. So let's let's talk a little bit about diversity now. So I agree that when you have diversity on your teams, when in your organization, in a community, it just makes everything better. It makes your products better. It makes your clients happier. Research shows that you have more satisfaction with products made by diverse teams. So what do you do to make a case for diversity when you're creating a team? Because so many times, we're on these technology teams, we're like, let's get Tom and let's get Bobby and let's get Billy. And you're like, wait a second, what about Sally? Can Sally be on the team too? How do you increase that diversity of teams and diversity of thought? Very, very conscious. Like really likes like, okay? So you know, there's a storage lead in our team and can we please have so-and-so? It's a he in America speaks English. There we go again. So I think, you know, you really want to include so-and-so, you know, she's worked with IBM software. She's been in this area for many years. She's in our China team. Her English written is good. So I have to really fight that barrier. I know there's going to be success at the end of the day. And some of the things I tried to do there, you know, now that we know we have a Sally somewhere, is like, you know, let's try and bring Sally over two weeks earlier. Let me try and have you both in the same town working together. So you build a bond and you realize you can, you know, jump high up and be caught by each other type of stuff. And it's a lot of effort. And another thing is, even our China manager, awesome guy, really good technical, he says, oh, but she asked me for a work-life balance. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. She'll be wonderful. Just help her right now. I mean, those children won't be children too long. And if we don't have children, who's going to buy all this technology in 10, 20 years? So true. So do you have any other strategies to kind of help that diverse team, help build diverse teams? So I try my best to make sure that we go to Chris Hopper and hire as many women from there as we can. Because all of my friends either already work at Rackspace or have worked there and I'm running out of friends and I cannot bring any more. So I need new friends. All right. Egla needs new friends. If you're looking for a job, let me know. That's great. That's great. So this is a question that I'd like for you guys to turn to the person next to you and discuss. But first, I want to hear it from, from Malani and Egla. So what is, we'll start with Malani first. What is the most challenging part of your role? Keeping up with all this knowledge information. I think we've got the human part kind of set, you know, having been at Intel eight years, I know who to reach out for what and then to pull teams together. But there's so much information out there. And sometimes we think of open source projects like mushrooms. I mean, there's a new project coming somewhere. Can I leverage it? So for me, it's this information overload. Gotcha. What about you, Egla? For me, it's time and time management. I have all these opportunities that I can be spending time on, whether it's working on open stack and community related things or whether it's on doing actual technical things at my current job or I am part of another board within RAC space. So I feel like I have to choose where I'm going to spend my time and at the same time making sure that I'm taking care of myself and my family. So if anyone has any ideas on how to extend the hours in the day, please let me know. All right. But to that comment, there is no work-life balance. It's just going to be things everywhere. So it's all about prioritizing and your priorities will change in life over time. And this is like what's the most important or what's going to be giving you the most return and you have to do that constantly. Yeah. If you want to write a book and you don't have time for it, find the time. Don't do as much work. It's terrible advice, but that's the only way to do it. No. I mean, I think you're right. I mean, I think the work-life balance, it's a fallacy. It's always imbalanced and you're always trying to figure out your priority. I completely agree with that. So make sleep a priority, okay? Yes, sleep is good. Okay, for Agla, so what is the best career decision that you've made? So I was thinking about this and I had two and they're kind of similar. One is move companies and another one move teams. For moving teams, it was within rack space and I was on a team for I think almost four years. I knew everything inside out. I could do everything from get requirements, write code to deploy to production. It was one of those devs that had production access and everybody relied on me and I was like, wow, what am I going to do next? And then I got someone asked me to join a different team and it was one of the most difficult decisions for me that I agonized about. I felt like I had to be loyal to this other team and another project that I invested so much time and energy on and everybody counted on me and how could I leave them? It was very hard, but I moved and it turned out to be the best decision I could make. At least for me. The other team went on fine. I was replaceable and I grew. My career really took off after I moved to another team. Okay. I'm going to switch it up, Molly. What is the worst career decision that you've made? I think there's a point you've got to return. If something's not working, you have to change. One time, I was like, okay, like this. I know this stuff. I've invested so much. Maybe if I stay another year, I'll turn it around. The stock will be worth something. Because if you're number three or number four or something in a company, it's a pretty big deal. The decision I made was to stay. It wasn't so bad. There was jobs afterwards, but I think there was just a wasted year and it just went downhill after that. Trust your instinct when you feel you can't make a change or they're just so ingrained and they're going to keep going that path and they have their little clicks and they're not going to open up and change their minds. It's now your job to fix everything, move on. There was like an eight-month price. It's okay. Very good. Do we have any questions for our panelists from the audience? Do you mind just moving to the microphone? That way everybody will hear you. It would be great. Thank you. It's kind of a contradiction in my mind that I'm just speaking aloud here. I see the need, as you know, I mean, you talked about the work-life balance and the need to grow your career, keep up-to-date and all that and the need to go look out for other women. You said you would like to hire similar women and what not. But there was this incident that happened not very long ago. We were talking about a colleague, a male colleague and me. We were talking about one of the keynote presentations from OpenStack. It was a particular presentation by a woman and we were talking, I thought, more about the technical aspects of it. Oh, why? That doesn't make sense. And then he goes, yeah, I think that doesn't make sense. They had to put her up there because they want a representation. And that kind of made me very angry. Good. That was the right response. The point is, we are talking the technical merits you may like. You are entitled to your opinion. In fact, to be honest, I didn't think of it very highly from a technical point of view, but that's besides the point. To brush it off, to say that happened, she was put there. I mean, I can tell you so many other keynotes or other presentations, again, not to my taste or what I mean. So the point I'm trying to make is sometimes women achieve something in life, achieving their career, but they are dismissed off. They are not given the credit they deserve because they think they are there because somebody thought they needed to be called up there. So how do you find that? I mean, I don't mean to say that we have to kind of back off on these attempts to make it, but we need it. I have two daughters myself. We need to keep up that effort and at the same time, how do you fight this? So one, slightly grow thick skin. I mean, there are going to be such comments. You're going to just have to keep fighting it. Right now, I say we have to do twice as much work to get half as much credit. Hopefully one fine day that'll change by the time your daughters are older, but do grow a thick skin and there was a time when our own Intel CEO said, hey, 300 million for diversity. You hear the announcement, read about it, you come down for lunch, and then this colleague of mine that I work sometimes, oh, that means you're going to get a promotion. My hand went down, bang, on the table. It was a nice good loud fist. His boss's boss was sitting across the table who happens to be a mentor of mine and friend, and then he just like laughed up and said, are we going to have bloodshed here? So that immediately calmed me down. But then I appreciated this guy made this night remark. Many people just think it in the back of their mind. So you had an opportunity to challenge the guy and say, let's talk some more about this. And I'm so glad this man said it out loud. So everybody at the table could talk about it. Otherwise, sometimes people blog about it. Some people simmer about it. And then I did bubble it up further all the way up to my VP. And then I said, I'm glad he's talked about it. So we could have that discussion. And he could relate that woman to one little human sitting right next to him. And that human even challenged him saying, it's not just about your daughter six years later. Look at me, your colleague, you did think I was valuable enough to talk with me when you wanted to apply for a patent for some ideas. So I'm just like you. And just the shapes different or the voice octave is different type of stuff. Yeah, I agree. I mean, you have to at a certain point, you have to stop caring what other people think. And you but you have to be self aware. Okay, it can't be, you know, I'm great. I do everything wonderful. You don't no one does everything wonderful. So I think it's a balance of, you know, you have to have affirmation from within versus external affirmation. And you have to be very self aware of what your strengths are. Yeah, and definitely challenge them. And, you know, yes, because he's a man, he probably had an easier career path. Would they like here? Ask them, like, what about the other talks today, the ones from the males? Did you find something technically not so great type of stuff in and make it more objective? Any other company will start with the numbers. Yeah. Thanks, Dean. There was a question there too. Okay. Go ahead. Yeah, go ahead, thanks. Yes. First of all, there's so few of us and watching out for each other matters. So I'm just so happy that Diane does that. Okay. She is an active sponsor. So she when she hires women and she says they're good, she'll say, Hey, you know, you're ready for the next level. And then she reaches out to get letters of recommendation. She reviews the wording and says, you know, it's more powerful if you change this work. Because sometimes, you know, the letters about women and they kind of be like, Oh, she's kind or she's friendly or, you know, some rubbish like that. You know, they're great to cooperate with or they have a breadth of knowledge, you know, those power words, sometimes people forget to use it. Just say, Oh, she smiled at you type of stuff. And then I never had a sponsor for the longest time till I had one. And boy, it's like having the sun shining in this room. Okay. I mean, like the full blaze of it. And my sponsor is Ruchi, who's been on the panels multiple times. I never knew it. I mean, I get goosebumps thinking about it. She says, Oh, you know, just jumps, jumps, like go to another higher level challenges you first. You can run this, you can do that. And hey, you guys are doing a local event, make it a global hackathon. She challenges you, but she never hesitates to promote you. She never hesitated to put you in front of others to fight for your case. And I remember at one of my promotion cases, somebody we approached for recommendations that Oh, you know, she'll get a recommendation from someone because she's friends with him. I was like, Where did that come from? I wouldn't even ask that person for the recommendation. And so what did Ruchi do? She just said, Hey, you know, let me go and ask for somebody else. This person is good enough that there'll be multiple recommendations to choose from. That's the sponsor, somebody who depends on you for their success. And they value you enough to push forward and they don't even have a glass ceiling for you. They say this person can rise to my level and beyond. I just want to see them bloom. Yes, absolutely. And if you're in any type of leadership role or come across opportunities, whether it's for speaking for conferences, for leading workshops or anything like that, and you cannot do it, ask another woman to do it. Say, Hey, I was asked to do this workshop, but I don't have time. Can you do it? And you'll be amazed that they're like, you think I can do it? We'll be surprised. Yeah, it's like we can't do everything ourselves, right? Look around, find people that can take some of that stuff away from you and hopefully grow into something big and wonderful themselves. Yeah, so we have time for one more question and then we're going to take a group picture. So yeah, go ahead. My experience, managers have to be advocates. And so finding male advocates is actually pretty easy because a lot of males have daughters. Once they have a daughter, they have an understanding of what it's like for us in the technology field. So I think it's by creating that awareness and creating that connection is what will help get through that. I'll comment. Intel numbers. So we incentivize our managers like count the number of males in your team, count the number of women. And, you know, we want to make this like the population representation one fine day 50-50. Today we might have any 20 to 30 percent women. So at least let me see 30 percent of your report is being women. So we incentivize or whatever dictate by the number of women we wanted to be representative. So nowadays managers, if a woman kind of applies, they're all kind of zooming in and trying to get that candidate. And it's now very active. And so we say we're not asking you to hire somebody who's not good. If you have equal performance capabilities, qualities, resume match, we'd like you to choose the woman over the man. So that's how we're handling it at Intel. Definitely something that you should focus on, right? Have a metric around it, right? Yeah. People want to meet metrics. Yeah. And so I think if your company hasn't done that, do unconscious bias training for managers. And at least if you can ask to be on the panels when they're interviewing other women. So it's not, you know, a woman comes to interview with your team and it's all guys and, you know, she probably was like, I don't want to work with them. And so make sure she sees at least another woman when being interviewed. Yeah, that's a great question. So we do that. And then we do another thing. When we write the, you know, the rec, the description of the job, there was one company that I came to know that reviewed the text and says, you know, this sounds too masculine when you start saying, must have this, this, this. And you just put, you know, a list of 10 diverse things. So they say, tone down that word, say it's nice to have three out of these five things or three out of these 10 things, or it would be nice to have. So we don't push back the women because this was even mentioned one of those lean in talks. The man will say, Hey, I have two out of those 10. I'm, I'm the best fit. Oh, I only nine out of 10. And I won't even apply for it. So we've changed things in the wording too. That's so true. All right. So we definitely want to, you know, wrap up. I do want to thank my panelists. Melanie, thank you so much. I go to thank you so much for sharing your, your insights and wisdom. You'll see up upstairs, up there, some ways that you can continue to stay engaged through the women of open stack mailing list. I talked about the meetings that we have, you can search for women of open stack wiki. You'll see the next meeting listed as well. We would love for you to join our long term mentoring program. And we very much look forward to seeing good Sydney. If you haven't done so already, please grab a t shirt. Thank you to our sponsor IBM and Maria Rita for doing a great job pulling this all together. And we'd love for you to stay for 45 more seconds to take our, our group photo. So if you guys can come up to the front, we'd love to see your smiling faces with us. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you.