 This is the OGM weekly call on Thursday, October 20th, 2022. In Portland, my little weather app shows that as of like tomorrow, we fall off a cliff into winter and it goes from sunny, sunny, sunny tail end of summer, summer, summer, summer to oops, it's going to be raining now. Well, that'll lower your fire risk. Yeah, and for the last week, the air outside has been really misty because there's some wildfires in Washington state pretty nearby. They're not blowing over us, but it's definitely messy air. So hopefully fires will put that out. Then we're off and running, replenishing the aquifers. Send itself. Well, if only they were away and apparently like, there've been some big desperate plans to reroute major amounts of water from the Pacific Northwest all the way down to the Bay Area or LA that have not come to fruition, but that's just a long way to move heavy stuff. It is, it is, we should just tow icebergs down right. Yeah, exactly. Well, we used to sort of do that for ice right. What's prevented, like a major desalination, like Israel desalination. What's prevented high speed rail from happening between obvious destinations on the West Coast, for example, I don't know. Forces of ownership and control of existing mechanisms of supply, perhaps. Little things like that. Yeah. We sell at the volumes needed, you know, the average person needs 10 liters of water a day. That's just one person and the energy demands are unpalatable. It's a lot. Now, if solar winds up being next to free because we're getting like the cheapest solar installations now are like two cents per kilowatt hour, which is crazy. And apparently 10 cents per kilowatt hour beats coal. So your average coal fired plant is 10 cents per kilowatt hour. And under that you're good. And then you don't need to feed a solar collector, any energy, no fuel, that's kind of cool. So if we get enough of those in enough places then desal gets super crazy real. There is a problem of Brian though, there's a lot of, you know, waste matter from this. So I would say why don't we figure out how to make bricks out of the brine. Like we're not putting it back in the ocean and changing the salinity or whatever like, like, let's, let's make something out of the brine. They should fund a little competition like like Napoleon funded the competition that led to margarine. We could make pickles. And turkeys. We could call them, we could call them drought pickles. And have like pickle factories. I like that a lot Stacy. You're going to contribute to the drought pickle idea. No, but I did once I did once post somebody's idea on my Facebook page, similar to this, hoping that one of my very intelligent friends would start a conversation, and they just shut him right down. And I, you know, I need to point that out. I mean, one of the things is that it really, even just this really short discussion, it just shows how the solutions always cause another problem. You know, Israel hasn't, it's completely dependent on electricity. You know, the water supplies, it's like we treated our water, you know, water problem for an electric problem and it's like, okay, well. So, you know, and there's a go and then the brine and the waste and it's just the sort of, it starts to give you this idea of how the techno utopianism, it's not. So it's not what you solve the next problem like, okay. It's far from straightforward. Yeah, I'm on a mailing list with a bunch of geeks and scientists. And they've been having a little back and forth that arises every now and then about nuclear power. And Amory lovans is a brilliant brilliant expert on a bunch of stuff but really vary against nuclear at all levels. And there's a couple other people who are like no no no nuclear is okay if this if this if this if this if this. And these are world class experts and they can't sort of sort it out to agree and they're each like, well politely your arguments are full of shit and blah blah blah blah blah. Very, very interesting. Yeah, I mean that particular problem I've heard a lot of arguments on both sides. And that's actually, I don't know if any of you guys saw this thing that it's actually a sense making thing was a sense making thing with general Schmacktenberger. Where he presented these three things on the stowa and the first one. I'll find it in a second. The first one was this, this sense making thing where it looked at all the arguments for and against the nuclear power was one of the was the example that she gave on it. And, you know, there's there's economic arguments and then there's scientific arguments and their ecological arguments and it turns out that she was able to, I think there's like 27 different perspectives people could have on this thing and it was broken down. It was so interesting to look at it. One of the arguments that, you know that, that I have been thinking about like it that struck struck me like it was like, well this assumes that they'll always be people to maintain the waste facilities and I'm like, Oh, wow, I never like that's a very interesting assumption right like, we never think about right and then all of a sudden you see what's going on in Ukraine and it's like oh wait a second, there could be locations in the world where all of a sudden it becomes unfeasible to maintain the waste site, who thought of that nobody thought of that. So I'll find that I'm going to find that thing. I just, I just posted the only link to a Schmacktenberger stowa video that I have to the chat tell me if it might have landed close so The issue of people going to work at the waste sites, the general assumption of almost everybody is that people will show up for work. As things get dicey and people are thinking about protecting their families, going to work seems like a low priority. Yeah, and for the, for the long term protection that Grace is talking about, you know, it, these sites need long term protection longer than there have been humans on the planet. Yeah, I'm thinking here of the long now foundation and their clock of the long now, though, which I find puzzling but the whole idea of which is to, to focus our thoughts on hey, what if we needed a project that had to stay around for 10,000 plus years. And, you know, humans in their current social aggregations haven't been around quite that long, we are nowhere near the longevity of dinosaurs. A few months ago, Joanna may seen a bunch of other people did something called the nuclear guardian project, which was trying to create almost a culture of taboo like you know what what would be the signs and symbols and procedures and cultural, you know, Bene Gesserit style injections you would need to do to ensure that these things could be safe for hundreds of thousands of years. Just consider the change in English from Chaucerian English to today. If I started speaking Chaucerian how many of you would speak would understand me, and we've got to take enormously technical stuff and put it in a language that can be understood for thousands and thousands of years as culture and language change I mean it's a, it's a dimension not a lot of people think about when we start talking about how to handle nuclear waste. We could burn it on a floppy disk too. We'll burn it onto a floppy disk so they can. I have some cassettes. Can we do a mixtape? Can we do a mixtape? I like mixtapes. So we might find some solutions to these problems if only we lived in a post capitalist society. Nice segue Jerry, awesome. Was that good that I picked that up? Yeah, that was good. I'm going to get over. And today is a topic call and I'm excited about our topic. And I'm going to lean on Ken a bit because Ken recommended some choreography for our conversations in the sense of breaking up into subgroups to work around questions. Just for grins, let me do a quick screen share for a sec. And then I took sort of, here's your post on the Plex. Here are all the issues that I've seen of Pete's Plex Dispatch. Here is the October 5 version. Here is my copy of your essay down here. You can read the whole thing. And then I actually took and parsed out the questions you asked in there. And these are the questions that are in the tail end of your posts there, which are lovely questions to consider. And I don't know if you want us to break up and discuss some of these questions that might be a way to do this, but I'm going to leave that to you. But I'm going to share the link out to this call in the chat right now so that anybody who feels like it can sort of wander around there. Now, what I didn't do yet is link each of your questions up to the contexts that it belongs to which I know. It were we to actually go deeper into that and start focusing on them or were my breakout focusing on for those questions I would then do that, you know, onward from there. And as, as, as always sort of my assumption, but we don't practically do this very much. If anybody else is note taking or mapping or doing anything around any of our calls, send those links to me and I will include them when I post back to the, to the OGM town square channel. I will include them in my brain as as part of the map and so on and so forth. Let's let's do more of using the tool, the sense making tools that we each like to make sense together grace. My question is, can you say what you mean by co post capitalist, because that's like, it's like I don't even know what I don't know what capitalism is like what are you referring to. That's a very good question. Ken, do you want to start there. Sure. Hello everybody. Good morning, good afternoon where you might be. I don't think no grace it's probably it's getting close to evening for you so good evening to you. So, there's a line that says it's harder to imagine the end of capitalism than it is to imagine the end of the world. And I read that just rang for me really true like there's so much stuff right now about the end of the world and all these endings and extinction events and doom and gloom and it's like, wow. And I'm like, you know, capitalism seems to be driving in many ways, many of the big challenges that we're seeing. And so I'm thinking well if we could get past capitalism and get past a post apocalyptic vision of the world and start to imagine a flourishing world where you know everyone's needs are met where in the dawn of everything they talked about the woodland Indians of the Northeast. When the Europeans arrived everybody had the means to an autonomous life, but everybody else had private property so the women owned the land and farm debt but they shared the bounty and the men owned all their own implements for hunting but they shared the bounty of the hunt and so everybody had their needs met and then there was a way of building up so you could have an autonomous life that didn't rely on destroying the world around you. So to me that's a post capitalist world how do we create an autonomous life everybody, we don't have to destroy the planet's life support in order to make that happen. That's my biggest broadest feature of that. Doug, can that sounds like that was a pre capitalist world. It was exactly in the chat. And I think we can. There may be some wisdom in going back and recovering elements from the pre capitalist world coupled with what we now have to make a post capitalist world. Love that and I think this this notion of turning over the soil on what is capitalism is a really nice way to walk into this whole topic Doug. I think the problem is not capital. My view is that capital is the surplus produced by whatever economic system you have. The problem we have is the ownership, who owns the surplus. And that leads them to be the people who get to make decisions about society. Capital begins in Greece and Rome with a new head of capital, capital cap for head. Cattle was the sign of wealth. And the issue that's very interesting is Plato and Aristotle talk about okay well managed society produces a surplus. What should we do with a surplus. And their view was okay surplus would be silly to buy new things. It should be used for creating free time for leisure and politics. When that model moved into early Christianity became that the eco in economics was the was God's estate and our job was to manage the surplus produced there for prayer and contemplation. So there is a history of what should be done with surplus. But to get back to my first point the problem I don't think is capital because capital is just the surplus produced by a society, and any society is going to do that the problem is when capital moves into an ownership regime. That's that means that some people own capital and some people do not. So, the word ownership is really important here and I think a lot of us would would vehemently agree that there's something awry with ownership and ownership and control of ownership and so forth. So let's dive there a little bit, Mike then guilt. I love the fact we're talking about words, although I'm a physicist. I think it's unfortunate that we call the system capitalism, because it does put the focus on the money. The fact is, you really need to talk about a political economy. You need to talk about the power. Sometimes you can use power to get money and sometimes you use money to get power. Well, we've got this world of overabundance of data information ideas, and the computing power and network power to do something powerful with them. And so if we're going to have a post capitalist society. This is a great time to start it. And we're seeing these utopian visions of a digital economy where people can, you know, kind of design their own job and work from where they want. These were things we talked about in the 90s but we didn't have the capabilities and we didn't have the socialization people hadn't gotten used to the idea that you weren't going to get a job and work there for five years, or 40 years. But now, you know, the gig economy could become the post capitalist economy because we now have these ways to take ideas and take data and create new brand new services for next to nothing. There's a rear guard action going on. There's a lot of people with a lot of power and a lot of employees who are fighting like hell against anybody who challenges their obsolete business models. But I haven't seen the good vision for what 2040 could look like if we fully utilized the platforms and the data that we have. I know it's out there. And I think we'll, we'll just do it piece by piece and it'll probably be somebody in Kenya who comes up with one piece of it they, they've already discovered mobile money. And then it'll be somebody else in India who does something magic with farming, and maybe something else will happen with energy and and water, and we'll start getting the key inputs into this new economy, provided in new ways that don't involve massive utilities and the like. I mean, I just wish that the people who wrote the fantasies about this decentralized world actually knew some basic economics and understood politics. If we can find the right core group of people who could put together all those pieces I think there is a vision that actually would resonate with 6070 even 80% of people in Europe and even a majority of people in the US. I apologize I do have to leave in 10 minutes but I am desperate for that vision so if anybody sees something that the only thing that I think we talked last time about building. And I went and picked up that book and I'm working my way through that and the, the idea of libertism, the libertism, and again it's, it's a world where we're all empowered to do some of the things that I was just talking about. So, Ken and grace are trying gently to steer us back into a look forward instead of a look backward. Gil you have your hand up if you would like to head in that direction you're welcome to it otherwise I'd love to skip directly to Ken and have him start sort of choreographing us into this. Yeah, let me do it real quick that I'm going to have to go out and take the call while walking to a medical appointment. I think the visions have been out there. They're not in, you know they're not widespread because it's not convenient for the folks on the media to have them be widespread but you know, if you haven't seen the work of Murray Bookchin, I would point you there. Oh, Murray. Oh, Murray. Oh, Murray. Yeah, Murray, who writes really evocative. And as kind of the source documents for the Rohingya community in of the Kurds, who have built or attempted to build the kind of vision on the ground Mike that you're talking about not, not treated very well by Saudi Hussein and the Americans and various others but there are examples and stories and there's lots of visioning out there I think one of the challenges we talk about capitalism is that it's not just a matter of geek economy and decentralized technology but a world that puts capital at the center of the game. In fact puts financial capital at the center of the game trance bill talks about the fact and many people talk about the financialization of everything. The capital becomes the pivot point and the measure of everything. So when we played capitalism with business and with markets, there were markets long before there was capitalism. Human economic activity long before you know and Ken talked about that a moment ago. So I think, and I don't know if this is a part of the look back we're going to look for Jerry but the, as I think about it. Lots of efforts to reform capitalism don't get at the structural defects that are inherent in that economic system. That's the problem is the and part of the reason why we end up talking about what is capitalism a whole bunch is. Yeah, and we talked about, you know, ethical, environmental capitalism stakeholder capitalism, just capitalism, non just capitalism so forth and my short list has six structural defects built into the game that we have to address if we're going to get to post capitalist, you know, and kind of just rattle them off real quick. Go quickly. Okay, and I can later post up about this accumulation without limit. Oh yes, you've said that before, extraction without reciprocity. Alienation without care. Abstraction without ground generation without regeneration maybe that was redundant and privatization without solidarity, which I put in my brain sometime ago. There you go in 2020 and 2020 June 2021 call, you mentioned those and I add the name. Okay, which reminds me I need to actually finish the piece of writing on this about that. Okay, so I'm going to go, I'm going to go off video I'll be listening and thank you all. Awesome. Can you take your bots hand down. I will. Yeah. Thank you. And before I turn the con to Ken Grace did you want to add something that will help us steer here. No, this is going great. This is going swimmingly. Excellent. So framing. I'm inviting us to step into an imaginal space not a problem solving space. I believe if you saw my article in the plex yesterday or today whenever it came today I guess the problem with problems is we get into trouble and trying to solve problems and I think that is a downstream not an upstream move we want to start with. What, what a world that's post capitalist look like what if everyone's what if the children of all species for all time at everything they need to live a good life. That's not a problem to be solved that's that's a concern to be lived into that is a that is a be hag to be, you know, explored. And so I don't want anyone to try and come up with the vision today and maybe they try to come up with the problems that you're going to solve this. I just would like us to step into let's imagine. And I just found this article yesterday on speculative futures and and somebody. There's an artist in front of a vacant lot in the city who put all these labels that said I wish this was and people coming along and they're they're writing. I wish this was a garden. I wish this was, you know, a daycare center and it's like, get into the I wish I'll I wish we were in this imaginal space. We don't have to solve any problems here because first by generating a whole bunch of ideas. We might actually find some that we can work on. But today is not about working on ideas today is about generating ideas does that make sense everybody any questions on that. Okay, to me. You can you can argue with the artist. What else you want to say your hands still up. I was in line to talk about this vision that we're talking about. So I don't know if I'm next or not. No, what we're going to do is they're actually going to because it's so awkward to try and coordinate this with 16 people. I'm going to ask Jerry to create four breakout rooms. And we'll go into small rooms for about 20 minutes each and then we'll shift to a different room with new people. We'll go back into planaries will do two rounds of that and just, you know, there's a list of questions that I started in the post that Jerry has linked in his email. So you can look at those you can add your own questions I'd like to talk about this question or here's my idea or here's my wish my desire. So the idea is to do two rounds of about 20 minutes each and come back to planary and see what we're learning. I'm ready to click on the breakouts whenever I knew you would be you're just an amazing guy Jerry. Thank you so much. So any questions before we go into breakouts and welcome to mark. What is our assignment in the breakouts. Your assignment in the breakouts is to look at the questions that I have posed or pose your own and talk about my vision of a post capitalist world is one where the children of all species for all time have everything they need to live a great life. That could be a start. So we've got that in the chat so that we've got that as a prompt. Sure. Thank you. Just because what I guess the question I want to ask that I'm sure question one asks is what is your vision of a post capitalist world, and no one's going to make you wrong for whatever you say that's going to be your vision and we're going to look for. I can really relate to that thank you. Yes. Might be more imaginable. If it's what's your vision of a world. Any way you want to advise me down to something that you can parse any way you want whatever works for you. I'm just suggesting starting points. It's not adhere to this question. Ask whatever you want. I'm saying, step into it. We don't exercise our imaginations enough. We're always talking about what we know. We don't know. We don't know how to create a post episode. We have to imagine it first before we can figure it out. So I'm asking you to exercise your imagination here. Sounds great. So I want to make a comment before we go in. And that is the difficulty in this group of following any logic. So I'm proposing that capital is the wrong target. You cannot have a society without capital. What you can have as a society with a different form of ownership. And ownership is the real problem. Let's get into our break up programs and figure it out. Let's go. Let's just go. Thanks, Doug. Let's go into breakouts. Here we go. Grace looks like he has some time. I was just going to comment that a lot of this both what you said and what. Pete says just it both it's sort of pointed at integrated life. Like that we're not separate from one another. We're not separate from the planet. We're not separate from me. I'm thinking of the planet as like our mother or as our child. It's like, well, those are kind of just part of you, right? They're just an extension of you. And here I am with my coffee, which is like very soon it's not going to be my coffee. It'll be me. I think one way of expressing that for me is what I just typed in the chat, which is I wish we recognized our interdependence with each other with animals with the planet. And, and I'll add something to that that might color it too much, but sort of the sacred nature of those relationships. And I use the word sacred very hesitantly there. But that, but that those bonds and relations and connections and dependencies are just what everything's made out there. They're like royally important and we need to tend to them with care. And part of the reason I'm really happy that the word consumer bothered me 30 years ago and I started following it is that I think the word consumer and the consumerization of our lives is a piece of what drove us apart from each other and what made us give up responsibility for the commons and for society and all those kinds of things and we are currently at a nadir, not Ralph that set of emotions and possibly tipping even further down if this thing spirals out of control. Ken, you've got the common. Quick show of hands how many people found that an easy conversation. Yeah. People found it kind of hard to step out of the well that won't work because of this. That was definitely part of our conversation. It's challenging to step outside our mark. Please go ahead. Oh, I'm just raising my hand. Okay. But you want to just speak to us. Welcome. Is this part of an exercise regime Mark. Yeah. Oops, lower hand. Okay, good. Let's do another round. Can you hit recreate on the breakout room so we end up with different people and we'll do another 20 minutes and we'll come back here. Thanks, Wendy. Good to see you. And we'll, and maybe since there's fewer people maybe do fewer rooms, I don't know, three rooms. Yeah, three rooms before it'll be fine. Because kills actually here twice because it was no taking thing. All right. Yeah, exactly. We'll be sending us back into rooms and 20 minutes and we'll come back and check in with each other. And we're sort of back. Can still in the breakout. So you have 60 seconds till you get pushed out of breakout so a bunch of people are still in other rooms. Room one is still. I hit the lead breakout by mistake when we still. Can't get back, but you couldn't find your way back in. Not to the breakout. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't see you. I didn't see you drifting in the breakout thing. It didn't tell me that there was somebody on assigned. No, no, no, no, what I'm just the last few minutes just the last few seconds you're talking about what I'm saying is that when the option to leave the breakout came up. And we were still talking and I hit the button. mistake and I couldn't get back to the break out. Sorry, I left the break up. Apology noted. And I was actually answering a question of marks in the middle of that so the answer is Hanlon's razor is never assume malice when ignorance will do for an excuse or something close to that. Okay, how was that for people I would love to hear. Any other conversations might who'd like to like to share. Doug, you're muted. The main thought I had, which goes back to your question is that people still when they talk about wishes it's very abstract it's very hard to envision. What kind of world that actually looks like what's the texture that could be caught for example on a video camera of what this is like. And the floating them keeps the conceptual world and the natural world separate. And Doug, this is a really, really common problem with anybody trying to describe anything. And one of the things I often push people to do is offer texture and say describe some very specific act or thing that we're familiar with that would be different. You're proposing or the scenario you're proposing and it's kind of hard for people. And I think it's a very useful exercise maybe at some point we do that as an exercise to just like figure out what texture means and how to describe texture because many of us are very intellectual and in our heads all the time. And everything that comes out of our mouths is this kind of like floating in the ether and makes a lot of sense to us, but doesn't get grounded in other people's perceptions because it's missing texture. So my trying to make it more visual was to suggest that the wishes that we wouldn't move where we live, and where we garden closer together. Which you can picture because it's an urban design idea or a suburban or rural. Exactly. Well, yeah, urban planning land use management, whatever, whatever the right categories. Mark, you, your hand was up and then down and up. So Mark first and Gil. I asked this question last night. At the Internet Archive because my job is one I actually don't like very much. It's kind of janitor of the, of the website and maintenance worker, rather than doing a lot of the creative stuff. The new kids knew all know all the new JavaScript stuff and I have often stuck doing PHP maintenance work. And somebody asked, you know, with all kindness, you know, what would the job you like feel like. And I looked at the clock and said well, you know, I'm going to take a lot of time to envision an answer. We don't have in two hours to do this where we're probably in a 15 minute conversation at the most and there are five other people here and, you know, I just can't answer that. We can't do that kind of vision off the cuff with any kind of real juice to that vision. Could you have asked for some time to think about it and then come back in a different setting and then express it. I'm going to have to do that. Yes. Sometimes you've got to like turn it over. If it's a really great question, you need some time. Yeah, I mean, you asked me, you know, what would your perfect day look like it's a great question. It's common envisioning and then visioning. I think you have to give it a lot more time than five minutes. I have a 30 second story that I've told long ago in OGM but long ago I attended a meeting about Quaker process of meeting for business. How do Quakers make decisions. And we had a guy standing in front of the room was lovely. And at one point he asked us a question and we all kind of leaned forward and like, oh, like Arnold Borschach, and he was like, let's go into silence for three minutes with this. And my little inner voice was like, how the hell did I get to be 30 years old and nobody has ever said let's go into silence for a little while and consider our answers rather than race to answer this thing. And I like a little light bulb went off in my head about my educational career to that point. Gil then grace, unless can you want to steer instead. Yeah, I'll talk later. Go Gil. I like these last few comments. I think the setting. A lot of people have said it's difficult to vision and I think the setting matters a lot. And how I vision around the zoom screen versus around a table with your around around the living room with you all or in a hot tub with you all. You know, meditation retreat with you all, or coming together after two days of solitude, you know, in the wilderness are all really different conversations and access different aspects of my imagination. And we are. We're trying. Ken's inviting us into a very vast exercise. We're using a very constrained form of conversation to get us there. I'm not criticizing it. I'm just observing. That's it. Thanks. Grace. Yeah, so I found it. Yeah, very strained conversation, mostly because I have this kind of like I've been in this conversation for last year or two or three or what I like it's like oh I'm going to do that again. I'm kind of a bit strained. And I do agree with Gill about the, about the format but one thing that I thought was great that came out of it was kind of the reframing of what does a post capitalist world mean, which came out both in the first conversation the other and so like, you know, on the one hand we could think of post capitalist as, oh you know we caused all this destruction, but on the other hand it's like we created all this cool stuff. And so reframing it to be, hey, capitalism created all these technologies and all these tools and all this stuff and there were some collateral damage, which we, you know, we're going to have to repair. But basically a post capitalist world is the world in which we've got all the stuff. Now what do we do with it. And I think that framing is very useful for me personally, as like, we built stuff. What do we do with it. And Grace, I really love that reframing and that helped me a lot when you said it. I'm puzzled because you've been chewing on this for a very long time and I would think that when this kind of conversation comes up you'd be like, I have a little utility toolkit full of things to like people's heads up with scenarios or possibilities or things that this new world could be like. But you just expressed sort of regret and like man that was rough and I'm a little puzzled because you've been in the trenches doing this for a really long time and I don't know. Maybe that's a reframing. Yeah, but I think that's right, but it's like, okay, you've been in the trenches doing this for a long time. Let's start back at zero. I actually was in a conversation with that like a group last night that was exactly that. They had hired somebody to write up like their vision for the future and this person ran across my white paper and they're like, this is it. I found it. He's like, I found it. And so he told them about it and they're exactly almost exactly where I was about six years ago in their thinking. And so he had me come in and present to them. And it was like talking like I'm talking a different language and it was so frustrating. And so I'm kind of referring to that. I really do want to hear other people's ideas and I don't want to come into a brainstorming session saying I've thought about it for 10 years. Let me tell you how it like that's the worst way to come into a brainstorming session. It's horrible. I don't know about that. I mean, I run into people who've actually marinated in difficult things for a long time. And I just want to hear straight from them the insights they got. I don't mind. I don't think that's a terrible way to enter a conversation at all. I think that somebody who's really, really sat with something is super valuable. Right, but not for a brainstorming session because they're fucking know it all nobody needs that. Is the difference between sharing your hard one knowledge and being a know it all isn't there. And if you treat them as a know it all, that's like a chilling effect on somebody who's actually like got a lot to say. Does that make sense? Yeah, I understand. Yeah. So, so, so I'm trying to take advantage of the hard work that you and people like you have done. And respect it and honor it and like drag it in so that we can like build more stuff with it. I'd like to observe that there's a difference. It depends on what the goal of the brainstorming is. Is the brainstorming a way to raise group awareness or is it a beeline towards the right answer. And there's lots of other things the brainstorming could be accomplishing, but those are two different things and you would, you would listen to an expert differently in each of those. Agreed. Thanks Pete. Michael then Mark. This is not what I was going to say but just a comment on what Pete was saying and you two before. That, you know, is the brainstorming for that spark for that, you know, lightning in the storm of ideas, never uttered before never conceived of before where hearing the same ideas that somebody's been thinking for a long long time is, is making that possibility not as great. So, I was going to say in response to, to this thought about the post capitalist world something that kind of came up in both of the conversations we were having about that are the, are the, the incentives that we now think of as, you know, Gracie was saying capitalism gave us this capitalism gave us that well did capitalism give us that with those things that that the are to do what I'm best at, and somebody else's desire, you know, to make the art to, you know, invent the thing. Is it is it really driven by capitalism and certainly it's, it's, it's kind of, you know, the thing, the making art doesn't make you as much money as the inventing the post it, does, and, and it sort of skews things but the, the person who was working on making adhesives and resulted in the post it. It wasn't like that was their thing. And if, if you were in a situation where it wasn't reflected in your income, but reflected in your ability to do the thing you love to do, and produce, either produce a surplus of, of something that you would make or produce knowledge wisdom invention that served a lot of people and you got the sort of glory and gratification of serving those people. I don't know if that stuff would go away in a, in a, in a place where, you know, we were all getting everything we needed getting, you know, whether to you be I or just the sort of thing of like, you know, I get up in the morning. I do the thing that some of the thing that I'm really good at that, you know, I get gratification of seeing people enjoy some of the things that's just fun for me, because that's what I like to do, and keeps me healthy and sane, and other people provide stuff that that I get and need, alongside having their fun. And it's all good. I mean, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's more of a tribal, you know, it's, it's a way of being that scene and in some indigenous societies but it's seen in capitalist societies just like kind of having its incentives, tweaked in often unhealthy ways. If that makes sense. You will talk about unhealthy ways right now. So I'm very open about having a problem with having too much stuff. And when I try to get rid of stuff it takes a heck of a lot of energy. Both for, you know, as children, and they hang on to stuff by mother and father or hoarders. And so I've got too much stuff and too little time to get rid of it. And going to zero is what somebody described asked when I just described this problem yesterday. Have you considered arson. Um, I've, I've certainly considered arson in my parents houses I was growing up. It's just like, yeah, that's, you know, burn the motherfucker down. And starting from zero would be a catastrophe. Because we're historical creatures. And it's just, you know, this is a problem where people don't often solve it on their own. And, you know, it's, it's a problem for me that came from, you know, it really made me think about intergenerate intergenerational trauma. Easy for you to say. Yeah. Because I kind of rejected that idea until I really started thinking about, yeah, mom and dad, fuck me up. You know, and it wasn't there, you know, there wasn't their intent to do so. Um, but, you know, I would love to have one 10th of the belongings that I have and was happiest in my life when I lived the other books with one 1000th of the things that I have. But now I have things. And do I just burn them or find homes for them. Anyway, I'll let Michael or Ken talk. I was, we're near the end of our time. In mouse, I was very struck when Art Stiegelman describes his father hoarding tinfoil trying to return a half eaten box of cereal to the market for refund, things like that, as a Holocaust survivor who had been through a period of deep trauma where he had nothing and so every every little thing that was meaningful and that was just ingrained in, in his being at that point. We're near the end of our time I'm going to pass the floor back to Ken to see what he'd like to do. Yeah. And so Michael is going to kind of close out so if you get something quick. Michael wants ways which is a great topic like. I mean, I would love to devote. Maybe maybe it's a subject for the next time we do a topic based thing of like the stuff that we accumulate and making it, making it not have been a waste that we accumulated it. And the dynamics around that so I'll leave there. I want to thank everybody for playing in my sandbox today. I really enjoyed the opportunity to go deeper with a few folks in these breakout rooms so I appreciate that. Something I learned is I would, I guess next time I wouldn't frame it as post capitalism I think that costs a lot of prompts for people, but rather post apocalyptic, because it feels like the dominant narrative in the media right now is one of doom and gloom and apocalypse and impending nuclear war and you know drought and floods and fires and, and it's like, yeah those are all real but if we don't have a positive vision of the future work towards we're going to have a hard time creating that that future so that's part of the impetus for me to start this call. And I really, I think issues of power came up and I think it's just plain difficult because we're not often asked, we're often asked to solve problems but not often asked to say if you could, if you had a magic wand what would you create. Right. So, personally for me I found the call extremely eliminating, and I learned things that I wouldn't expect to learn I got pushed back that was expecting I welcome it all. It's been, it's been terrific. How about this apocalyptic yeah okay Michael. Would that be a dys apocalyptic or dis or dss dis s avoiding the post apocalyptic implies that we have to go through it to get there. Exactly. So a non apocalyptic world. And I just wanted to try to get us thinking there and you know, I totally agree it would be so awesome if we could be together, if we could, if we could actually do this in nature like where it could take a break and go walk in the woods and come back and you know do it over a couple of days and there's a lot of, of tracking stuff you know whiteboards and mural paper and you know, but I thought this was a really good start and I just very very thankful for the folks who showed up today, even if you didn't necessarily like it thank you for playing along. And can I want to thank you for suggesting the topic and for leaving us into it. I really enjoyed it. Lots of good stuff showed up in my head through this conversation so thank you. I'll put a bow on this. All right. Yeah, I'll I'll close with a poem from this is from memory this I may have resetted this before this is William Stafford one of my favorite poet says called ultimate problems. In the Aztec design, God is in the little P that is rolling out of the bottom of the picture, and the rest extends all the bleaker because God has gone away. In the white man's design there is no P. God is everywhere but hard to see the Aztecs rounds at this. How do you know that he's everywhere. And how did he get out of the P. Perfect. Thank you. Thanks everybody. Everybody. Bye.