 I'm gonna interrupt, I have to interrupt. The problem, right? No, because you're taking the piss now. It's not, no, I don't think that's true. We can talk about mutilations that happen in the dairy district. I disagree, that's cruel. That's ridiculous. Why? That's an insane position. I mean, I know, I disagree. We're gonna look this up often. You're making irrational claims. I can take a pee. No point. There's no point. Can I ask you a question? Yeah, brother. Of course you can. You said you would kill a lion if it was Sultavents Protector human. Yeah, if they were gonna kill a human, yeah. Yeah, if I had to kill the dog to save a human, or kill a lion to save a human, I'm gonna do it, yeah. Would you kill a lion to save a sheep? Yes. If they were gonna kill the sheep, yeah. You know that's what lions do every day. Yeah, but I can't go out there and stop them, can I? Why not? I mean, would you go out and kill all the lions just to protect all the sheep? I'll put it this way. I don't know how to deal with that problem, but I think it's morally preferable if carnivorous animals didn't exist in terms of ethics, because they eat animals alive. They shred them alive. It's horrible. And even God thinks that. Does it? Isaiah 11.6. Got blocks. The wolf will lay down with the lamb. When you mean that emaciatic days when the Messiah comes. Even God thinks that. There'll be wall of peace. It might not be. No, it's true. There will be, but... So I'm not the only one. It's not crazy for me to think that if God thinks that. No, but at the moment, there isn't. No, but that's what I'm saying. I'm saying I have a belief, and I don't know how to change that, but you're saying it's a bit crazy. Well, I don't know. Like, you maybe go in there. It's a bit mad to think that. But even God believes that. Why don't we go out and kill all the lions for a sign? I mean, all the carnivorous animals. Because I can't. Poison foxes. Quite easy. Put a poison bait to kill foxes around the area, because they're going to kill other animals, which they do every night. They kill pets. They kill birds. They kill mice. I honestly believe that there should be a way to contain carnivorous animals like foxes. I don't think we should go straight for poisoning them. I don't think that's a... I personally think of that. You can't change the nature. No, no. One second. I think we should separate them somehow. From, like, I don't want to see lion's shred antelope or fox's shred rabbit to live. It's to separate them and feed them what? Preferably vegan pet food. They can't survive. Carnivorous animals can't survive. Even cats need to eat meat. Oh, no. You can get vegan cat food in that. No, you can. No, you can. Have you looked into vegan cat food? I have looked into it. Have you looked into the research? As far as I know, you can't... Have you looked into the research? They need cheering. They need nutrients found in meat. They don't need meat. But anyway, what's the problem with my position against eating animals for us? Do you have a problem with that? Because we can talk about carnivorous animals, but... It's fine, but I think you're questions wrong. It's why not be vegan. You're the one making a claim for people to be vegan so it should be the other way round. No, no, because I'm putting... Why be vegan? The burdens on the person to justify are killing the animals. Why not? I don't think it's unjustified to kill the animals. Again, why? Do you think it's justified? Why not? Well, justify it. In what way? Is it just right to make them walk here? Morally justify it. What's the moral problem? The moral problem is animals are sentient conscious beings similar to us, not on the same level of consciousness. But what happens to them matters to them. They feel fear, pain, suffering. They care for their young. If it's wrong to torture them because they experience that suffering then it's also wrong to murder them. And I don't think we need to do it. We don't need to as a... We don't need it for health. I heard this money thing. Let's start by... Actually, is it whether it's morally wrong or not? Okay. Why is it morally wrong to kill someone? Murder. A person, a human being. Because you're taking away their experience. And they're an individual. They're a subject of their experience. And they just have to have sovereignty over their own experience so they don't have to take that from other people. So no more about abortion. Are you then pro-life? Yes, after a certain level of sentience. Yeah, like non-trivial sentience. Why would you need sentience? I mean, it's still a human being that's going to grow. In fact, even from day one, but certainly you could argue from heartbeat whether there's actually human heart beating there. No, well, I only care about the human as much as it turns into a human. And I only care about the fetus. But animals are not human and you still care about it. No, no, sorry, human. I only care about the being at the point it becomes sentient, conscious, having an experience. Because otherwise, I mean, I don't advocate for keeping people on life support for 20 years. I'll tell you the way I see it. The way I see it is the two-week roots you can go down when defining ethics and moralism. Which I believe, actually, is because I'm religious too. I'm not going to argue from that position because, obviously, you're not religious too, so there's no point in... I'll just say Isaiah 116 and the Garden of Eden. Do you have the Garden of Eden? Hang on, hang on. So, morals and ethics in general, my personal position is that absolute morality becomes from God. And if God decides that this is okay, if God says we can go out and eat animals, then that's fine with me. I'm not going to argue because if you don't believe in God or you don't believe in the Torah or my beliefs, then... Well, I care about your beliefs. I don't care about other people's beliefs because I'm talking to you, you know what I mean? I would argue as a general society that morality or our laws come from a social contract, which is basically... I know what a social contract is. I'm not going to punch you if you don't punch me. No, no, some people and humans can't reciprocate a social contract. I think we've extended this to the whole species, the whole human species, because we're part of the species that isn't capable of the social contract, even though there are specific individuals there... That can't reciprocate a social contract. Exactly, that mentally... Do you think that's logical? I think it's logical. Why? I think it's logical. Why do we get protection and other species who experience the world don't? Because they don't care about us. Maybe they don't care about me. Someone with a mental handicap doesn't care about me. He's part of the group. It doesn't matter. I would argue... What does it matter if they're part of the group? What does that matter in ethics? Two things. First of all, we are guided a lot by the ones we feel affinity to, and our group, which I think we can extend to all of humanity, are the ones we feel affinity to. But also, when you kill... One second. We feel affinity... Okay, there's two things here. Affinity to each other is a moral justifier. I think... If we feel affinity to each other... It's not a basis, but I think it certainly informs our morals. If I would go and kill a mentally completely deficient... Human being who has no idea completely doesn't know anything. Well, not know anything. Let's just say they know about it as much as I can. Hang on. I would be hurting their family, their parents, their brother, sister... It's the two things I don't want to get too... You're adding lots of stuff on it. I'm going to interrupt. I have to interrupt. One second. One second. I think we're all going to be on a monologue and we're not going to address it. You're saying that ethics are dictated by affinity and I think you pushed off of that. I don't think... No, I think... Because I think just not sharing affinity to some humans and then you think it would be justified to kill them. No. Right? But coupled with that, you said people with a severe disability who don't know much, but I would say, No, they have to... They have to be... No, no, no, but babies will grow. So let's just say someone with a severe... This is called the argument from marginal cases, by the way. Someone with a severe mental handicap. Let's say they're about the level of a cow, right? You're saying the only reason it is wrong to kill them. I don't know. Just forgive me if this is not the... It's because of their family, yeah? Because it harms their family. Mostly, I would say, if we're defining ethics as morals, which is really absent of a supreme moral authority. Well, we're having a secular discussion. We can have a religious one too. It's absent of a supreme, absent of absolute morality. I think the only morality or ethics that matter is the social contract. No, one second. One second. No, no, no. Because you said social contracts, and you're saying that they broke... So I've somehow broken a social contract between... Why are they part of the social contract, and others are not? That's really the question. So one second. If this person with a mental handicap has no family, and let's just say they're on a separate island away from civilization, they can't reciprocate a social contract, is it then okay to kill that being? I would say from a secular perspective, certainly of a far lesser evil than killing... I'm not asking if it's a lesser evil. I ask, is it okay to do it for a sandwich like we do to cows for burgers? Well, the problem is it's hard for me to really separate my beliefs from my personal beliefs. That's what I'm saying, but yes. Well, I'm probably taking to logical conclusion... It's okay to kill them beings? Just a yes or no is fine. Probably yes. Okay, so I can go to this civilization here myself. I can actually start breeding them, plenty of them. Just like we do to animals here, just the same way, factory farms, mass killing. I can do that to those mentally disabled human beings on this separate civilization who can't form a social contract, who have no family. I don't think it's actually possible. No, no, no. I'm not asking if it's possible. It is possible. It's logically possible. It's setting up a hypothetical that cannot exist. You cannot breed them without human beings. You need to... And by the way... You cannot have a philosophical discussion without creating hypotheticals because we can't act in the real world right now. I want to find out where you'll be. No, no, no. You said it's okay to kill one, so is it okay to kill a billion? Even you're hypothetical and you're asking this person who is somehow living by himself on the desert island and yet surviving without any family, there is again a hypothetical that doesn't exist. I would say... You need hypotheticals. Do you know how to... I mean, in question, why would an lion want to come right now? Well, it wouldn't. So why would... You asked me a hypothetical when we started this conversation and now... One second. One second. You said if a lion did this, would you stop them? Well, actually, no. My question was not hypothetical. One second. My question was what lions do every day that can live as animals. And then you asked me another one. You said would you do this and they'd kill all of these beings? You asked me to imagine... It wasn't hypothetical. That is actually reality. Okay. I was... Because you said before that you would kill an lion to save a human, so I think that shows that you understand that humans have some kind of... Well, I think it is a hypothetical because you're saying would you kill a lion in this situation? Okay, well then it's not here in reality. I brought it to reality. You're saying... Foxes... Well, I gave you a practical example. Okay. Go pose for foxes I can give you a practical example. A practical example. A mentally handicapped, homeless person wandering the streets has no family and they're in isolation. That happens a lot. They've wandered into the bush. No one will know they're gone. Is it okay for me to kill them and eat them? Again... I'd still... They can't reciprocate social contract. They had no family and they're isolated but they're in the bush somewhere. That's cool. From a secular perspective... In your moral view without there being a supreme being? In my personal perspective, no. But actually, probably yes. From your perspective... That's hilarious and... That's not why. That's the thing. That's an insane position, dude. Come on, be honest with me. Why? Because it's an insane position because murdering someone who is experiencing the world is murder, it's wrong. Is he experiencing though? Yeah, of course he is. They're experienced to the level of a cow. What do you call that experience? Well, then... Anyways, why don't we talk about your actual beliefs? Well, I'd say my beliefs... I believe God created animals for our use. Okay. In the way that we're being used now. Do you live in the UK? Yes. Okay. Do you eat chicken? Do you eat chicken? Cows like that. Okay. Not bacon but... Let's stick with chickens. All right. So here in the UK these chickens have been raised in like sheds. Yeah. They grow four times faster than they did in the 1950s. So they grow really fast. Yeah. And then they take these chickens they sometimes two beats of support their own body weight. Their life is basically inherent suffering, right? Not really. Not really? No, because you're anthropomorphic. You're projecting the way you would feel if you would be in that position. The thing is a human being in prison... Well, they do suffer. Not really. A human being in prison isn't so much about physical suffering. It's about mental suffering. Chickens are not capable of that. No, I mean, I'm talking about physical pain and certain amount of mental anguish. But even though they don't have mental anguish. Not capable of mental anguish. Oh, really? Yeah. They don't have any animals. So there's no evidence that... I don't need that, but I think just by seeing them... So you're just going off faith that they don't feel anything? No, it's more than faith. I think it's... One second. Yeah. If animals don't feel anything, why is there kosher guidelines? I don't know. You can't cause pain to animals, yeah? So your religion even believes you can cause pain to animals? Hang on, hang on. We're talking... I disagree that we should be able to cause that pain. One second? Yeah. How can you cause pain to a chicken if they don't experience anguish and suffering and in fact I'd argue this... No, no, no, no, no, no. It is. One second. So is it kosher to cause an animal suffering and then... Kosher doesn't come into it. There are specific laws of how to slaughter and it's not just good to do with animal suffering. We're allowed to slaughter the animals. So are there guidelines for how to treat animals in the Torah? In... There is a general... There is a general... Am I allowed to be called to an animal? No. It's not about the animal at all. Oh, really? It's not because the animal is a human being. So how can you possibly be called to an animal that can't experience cruelty? Because it's not about the animal. It's about the person. In fact, I would argue... How is it called with that kind of experience? So one second. Do chickens have a brain? Not a brain that they're not complex emotions. They have basic instincts, but not complex emotions. Do they have a brain, I asked? Of course they have a brain. Do they have a functioning nervous system? Yes. Do they feel pain? Yes. But the chickens in factory farms don't experience suffering? Sorry, mate. That's ridiculous. It's not ridiculous. It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. They might experience some pain, some physical pain. What is physical pain? It depends. What the kinds of chickens exist, the kinds of chickens experience isn't an immediate physical pain. Come on, bro. Come on. Most pain... No, because you're... You're taking the piss now. It's not. It's because most pain is mental, not physical. No, no. I'm not talking about most pain. No. I'm talking about chickens experience pain is emotional. Suffering is not physical. So you don't... Unless it's... Something like really, really out to the... One second. Out to the norm. But just the chickens have a small place to live. They don't suffer from that. So basically... You would suffer because you've a mental... So does your religion teach you that animals don't suffer? My religion doesn't teach me anything about animals. Your religion... You just told me that teachers should not be cruel. Not to be cruel, but that's about the first... How can you be cruel to an animal? Again, that's... So, but what does it not do? Because if you want to inflict pain on something... And there's the... Okay, let's... Let's try to explain. So when they experience pain, they don't experience suffering along with it? No. There's not... It's not the same thing. What is it? Suffering. The main part of suffering is emotional. It's not from the physical. And animals don't have emotions? No. Not in that way. What do you mean in that way? When a chicken is raised in a small place, he doesn't realize there's this whole world outside. It's not the same as human being in prison. Chickens don't want to be free. They've got no capacity. They've got no understanding. They've got no knowledge of freedom. They don't know about that. You couldn't even explain it. Even if a chicken was free and then you later caged it, it still does that. You're talking about it. I never talk about the idea of knowing... No, no, no. Cows and pigs and... No, they don't have this concept. If you take a free pig and put him in a cage, they have a concept of what it's like to be free. No, they don't have this concept. They do. I mean, you're making irrational claims. If you take a pig and you feed it... and you let them run around and do whatever they want, and then you put them in a cage, do you don't think they supper and want to escape the cage? No. It depends how you treat them. I've got animals. I've got animals. So you're saying it's not bad. So caging hens is not bad. I've got animals and I can open the cage and they will not escape because they've got their food. Because they've been in there the whole time, dude. So they've got a stop-clone cis drive. They don't know to leave. No, I actually have got goats. I have goats and now they're living in a much smaller place, not a tiny place to run about, but they're happy there. They get their needs met and I open the door. So when I take a free animal from the wild, like an elephant, and I put them in a small cage, they do not suffer because of that. Depends how small they are. No, no, no, no. Smaller, they can't turn around. And they suffer physically. So animals can suffer physically? Suffering is emotional. Suffering is not physical. So that's suffering? To a degree, yes. OK. And can chickens suffer physically to a degree? All the animals can suffer physically to a degree. They can experience pain. So now they can suffer? No, no, we've established they experience pain. But they don't suffer mentally, you don't think? No, no. OK, and do you have evidence that they don't suffer? I don't have evidence, but I think the evidence there in front of us... So where do they receive the pain? That's all. Where do they receive the pain? There's a difference between physical pain and mental pain. So they feel it here in their leg and they don't have a brain that processes it. So do animals experience pain, the reaction of pain in their brain? Obviously. OK. So they do it... All pain is experienced in the brain, but it's an instinct. If you touch something caught, you pull away, that's an instinct. And if they don't pull away, what happens? They do. They do pull away. No, no, no, one second, in a factory farm they're born into suffering because they're grown too big, they can't support their body weight, they lie on the farm, they often die on the floor. I know what you're talking about. Millions die on the floor, there's statistics for this. It's about 4% death rate in factory farm sheds. I'm an investigator as well, I'm not just a street debater. Millions die on the floor. 4% does not, but OK. When you talk about 1.1 billion chickens every year, it's not 30, 40 million or so far. So those ones that die and suffer and die on the floor, they're not experiencing any mental suffering. Therefore it's OK. Well, yes. It's not OK to do them. Yes. OK. Well. It's a secular world because that makes you a bad person. So it's causing physical pain one second. It's causing physical pain cruelty? Gratuitous pain, yes. No. It's causing animals physical pain cruelty. It's not a yes or no, it's I'm adding a word, gratuitous pain. It's when you're causing pain just for the sake of causing pain. OK. And if I'm causing pain, if I'm causing them animal testing for medical reasons, go ahead. So in the context of food animals, eat them, go ahead. So can I be cruel for food? The cruelty is good. The cruelty is not part of what you need to eat them. It is an inherent part of factory farming. It's inherent in its nature. Can't avoid it. Is it OK to be cruel to those birds in order to eat them in your religion? It is OK to raise them in a factory farm setting because the cruelty is done with a purpose. You're not being cruel for the sake of being cruel. You're being cruel for purpose to be able to eat them. So in your religion it's OK to be cruel to animals for food? No, it's not cruel. Is that what your religion is? I disagree. That's cruel. No, one second. Causing animals physical pain when we don't need to eat them because we don't need it for our health. We don't need it to survive. Most people agree it's wrong to be cruel to animals, even for food. They don't. Most people eat chicken. No, no. They believe it's wrong to be cruel, but they conduct a behavior that is in conflict with their beliefs. No, it's the haven't got the balls to tell you. I don't really care about the chickens. Some people have the balls. Some people actually do care about chickens, but they eat it. It's not even cruel. So basically I can take, let's say cows, I can boil them alive with no stunning, no kosher slaughter. I can just torture them and boil them just to eat them if I'm going to eat that. Why would you need to do that? Why do you even need kosher slaughter if cruelty doesn't matter in the context of food? Why does kosher slaughter exist? Boiling alive is an act of cruelty. To eat them? No. Is it in the context of food? Because the cruelty is done with a purpose. You're not being cruel for the sake of being cruel. You're being cruel for purpose to be able to eat them. No, it doesn't. I didn't say in the context of food. Yes, you did. It's for the purpose. No, the purpose. So that's why I say let's stick with my words. The purpose is to eat them. But you don't need the cruelty part. You don't need the cruelty part to eat them. You can do that. No, you can. It's not cruelty in the context of food. I gave you an example. I gave you an example. Let me try again. To use an animal for a purpose isn't in itself cruel. I never said that. I'll do that. Hang on. That's not what I said to. You can do that in a way that doesn't cause unnecessary suffering. That is not a problem. What do you mean by unnecessary? Is it necessary to eat meat? Unnecessary suffering is is it necessary to eat meat? Unnecessary suffering is to cause them extra suffering that you can achieve the same purpose. What is a factory farm? You can achieve the same purpose. What is a factory farm? You cannot achieve that purpose. You cannot supply meat, chicken to the masses without factory farming. You're acting like we need to. Eating meat isn't a problem. Let's go through a step by step. Eating meat, no problem. So long as animals weren't involved? Eating meat in the way I see it. Eating meat, no problem. Killing the animals to eat meat in itself, again, no problem. I don't call that murder because murder is illegal killing. It's not illegal. So again, no problem. But you should achieve this aim, this goal of killing the animal in order to eat the meat in a way. You don't get your meat. You get your meat from factory farms like everyone else. You should achieve that in a way that minimises cruelty as much as possible. Why do you care about cruelty? It's not cruelty in the context of food, she told me. Again? Why do I care about cruelty? You said it's not cruel if it's done in the context of food. In your religion, it's okay to be cruel to animals for food. No, it's not cruel. So why would you care about minimising it? I said purpose. But it's not cruelty in the purpose of food. So why do you care about minimising it if it's not cruelty? Because when a person has a way of getting his goals in a way that is not wantonly cruel, gratuituously cruel and yet you know what? I think you believe cruelty is wrong in the context of food, which is why you want to minimise it. No, I don't. So you don't think cruelty is wrong? Of course cruelty is wrong, but raising animals isn't cruel. So if you don't think cruelty to animals is wrong? No, I think it's wrong but raising chickens in a factory setting where they experience pain and suffering is not cruel. Even though the chicken experiences pain. I think the definition of cruelty is inflicting pain for the sake of inflicting pain where there's nothing gained. That's your definition of cruelty. Yes. Animal cruelty can happen in a farm. Happens all the time. In what way? In what way? I just explained to you what happens to the chickens. No, I don't think that's true. We can talk about mutilations that happen in the dairy industry. We can talk about animals having been stolen from their mothers in the dairy industry. I don't think that's true. They get maternal bonds with their child and they get trauma from them being taken. They get mutilated. They get castrated without anesthetic. They get mastitis. They get lameness in the pork industry. They get killed in gas chambers, which causes them suffering because of CO2 gas. It causes them eyes burning, nose burning, all of this stuff. We're at egg industry. They're pushing out egg after egg after egg every day. They lose calcium. They suffer on the... They do that anyway. God's created animals, didn't He? God's created animals laid one egg every month. Now they've been selectively bred to lay 300. They still do that. They're quite happy. Which causes them suffering. They're not happy. No, it doesn't. I will show some footage on the screen. I don't use footage of chickens at home. When you're out here and you eat eggs, that's where it comes from. So what? They lay eggs every day. Don't tell me they won't do it anyway. They lay eggs every day. Yeah, because they've been selectively bred to. So what? Yeah, because it causes them suffering. It does cause suffering. Magic is very happy. It does in a farm context. It does. It's not the egg laying. It's the... Going back to your argument that having them a factor in the... The factory farming setting, the environment, the small enclosed environment. How do you know it doesn't cause them any pain to lay eggs every day? It doesn't seem like cause them pain. How do you know? They've never said anything. They've never told me. They don't explain it to you? They've never told me. They can't explain it if they don't say it to you? Yeah, I don't think it does. It doesn't seem to be. I mean, how do you know... You don't even think it's cruel for animals to die on their faces in a factory farm? No. They're just lying. So why would you care about a backyard egg? I don't raise chickens for cruel. Anyways, I think we should finish this off. Not a problem. Yeah, we should finish it off because you don't think it's cruel. I don't think it's cruel. You don't even... OK. You don't think it's cruel? Factory farms are not cruel? No. I don't think factory farms are cruel. Again, factory farms in itself are not cruel. There's no inherent cruelty in raising animals in captivity or even in small conditions. But you should not be cruel that we don't gain anything from the cruelty. If it's not cruel, it shouldn't matter what cruelty I do inside that farm if it's just not cruel. It is. It is. Because when you... I define animal cruelty as wanton or gratuitous, causing suffering gratuitously or wantonly without any gain. OK, so you're talking... I asked you one second. You can animal test if it's going to help people, even if it's causing tumours to rise. I don't care. So boiling dogs in Eulen, when they boil dogs alive in Eulen, right, at Dogmeat Festival, they believe it makes the meat taste better and it's got medicinal qualities. Is that good? Is that fine? It does taste better. It does taste better. It does taste better. Is that fine? Does it taste better? I don't know. Is that cruel? No, I ask you, is that cruel? Because it's done for a purpose. I have no idea. It does taste better. I ask you, is it cruel? That's all. It would appear cruel to me. OK, but why? It's done for a purpose. True, but again... And they're going to eat them. They're not going to waste. The dog suffers and screams and yelps, but they're boiling them alive for food. It's not cruel. I'm going from my background where we are taught to kill an animal first without boiling it because that just makes them suffer. They can't suffer. They can't experience mental suffering, remember? They can't experience physical suffering. Dogs don't have brains either. They don't have emotions. You don't need emotions to... Do dogs have emotions? Not complex emotions. I never asked. I never said you add something on and then you are. I said do dogs have emotions? Which kinds? Do they feel happy, sad, depressed? Do they... They don't feel depressed. Dogs don't feel depressed. No. OK. We're done here. This is hilarious. It's not an area. Dogs don't feel depressed. It's hilarious. You don't think a dog feels depressed? No, not really. OK. They've got instincts. What? No point. There's no point. If you can't agree... If you can't agree that a dog gets depressed or has emotions, there's no point. There's no point. You want to be interviewed? No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No. No.